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(HelenaIR.com)   Remington settles lawsuit, may recall millions of rifles sold with decades-old "random bullet dispensing" feature   (helenair.com ) divider line
    More: PSA, Remington Arms, rifles  
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7295 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2014 at 10:35 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-08 09:20:04 PM  
Wow, that was a close shave.
 
2014-07-08 09:54:17 PM  
Winchester, Savage, and Ruger suits have been seen rubbing their hands in glee.
 
2014-07-08 10:39:20 PM  
Laura said to be despondent.
 
2014-07-08 10:40:46 PM  
Dumb broad keeps pointing the rifle at somebody and is shocked, SHOCKED her finger could then operate the trigger when the safety was turned off. Solution: blame everybody and everyone else and recall it all.

Never would have happened if she stuck to sammich making.
 
2014-07-08 10:40:51 PM  
i257.photobucket.com

He was way better before he was Bond.
WTF is a Zimbalist.
 
2014-07-08 10:43:14 PM  
I am confused. I had been informed that the National Rifle Association had paid Congress to enact a law that immunizes firearm manufacturers against any kind of lawsuit for any reason.
 
2014-07-08 10:44:08 PM  

Dimensio: I am confused. I had been informed that the National Rifle Association had paid Congress to enact a law that immunizes firearm manufacturers against any kind of lawsuit for any reason.


It's true, but then it was discovered that immunizations cause retardation.
 
2014-07-08 10:44:19 PM  
Barber's 9-year-old son, Gus, was killed by a Model 700 rifle in a 2000 hunting accident in Montana. The family says the rifle fired when Barber's wife, Barbara, released the safety as she prepared to unload the weapon. The bullet passed through a horse trailer and hit Gus, who was standing behind the trailer.


This is why you always, always, keep the gun pointed down while loaded (and even unloaded).

I was taught to always keep my rifle pointed down as much as you can when not shooting and always treat guns like they're loaded even when you know they're not (not the subject of this thread, I know).
 
2014-07-08 10:45:32 PM  
Meh.  I've owned a 700 for about 20-ish years now.  If you don't fark with the trigger mechanism, you won't have a problem.

Also FTFA:
Barber's 9-year-old son, Gus, was killed by a Model 700 rifle in a 2000 hunting accident in Montana. The family says the rifle fired when Barber's wife, Barbara, released the safety as she prepared to unload the weapon. The bullet passed through a horse trailer and hit Gus, who was standing behind the trailer.

The Four Rules:
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


She was pointing the gun in an unsafe direction while unloading it.   I hate to say it, but it's kind of like those FAA reports about crashes where there may have been some minor mechanical problem but it was mostly the pilot's fault that the plane crashed.  It was her fault, through her careless handling, that her son died.

The muzzle should have been pointed at the dirt.
 
2014-07-08 10:46:14 PM  
The ONE actual case where a person didn't kill a person, a gun killed a person.
 
2014-07-08 10:47:41 PM  
I have seen this first-hand. Older Remington rifles WILL spontaneously discharge. All I did was flick off the safety and the rifle fired. I had ten guys standing around me who all saw it happen. I was lucky it was at a range and was sighted on a target. But that biatch popped as soon as I flicked the safety lever. Was an older 30.06 Remington from the mid 1970s.
 
2014-07-08 10:52:12 PM  
Wasn't there a documentary about this on netflix? Something about the bolt that causes the rifle to discharge. Seems clear that the gun was defective and I feel bad for that kids family but it also seems clear it wasnt being pointed in a safe direction.
 
2014-07-08 10:53:40 PM  
You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.
 
2014-07-08 10:53:56 PM  
Obama regime to take away millions of guns!  Just like the Nazi's!!!!

/This headline brought to you by the Tea Party.  Serving Y'all Qaeda since 1/20/09.
 
2014-07-08 10:54:51 PM  

Deathfrogg: I have seen this first-hand. Older Remington rifles WILL spontaneously discharge. All I did was flick off the safety and the rifle fired. I had ten guys standing around me who all saw it happen. I was lucky it was at a range and was sighted on a target. But that biatch popped as soon as I flicked the safety lever. Was an older 30.06 Remington from the mid 1970s.


Mine fired as I ran the bolt forward, took a chunk out of my palm and ruined my lucky underwear...


/seeing that by fly back at my face wasn't something I want to see again either
 
2014-07-08 10:55:50 PM  
I only own one model 700, from 1985.  It has been around long enough that I would know if it was going to accidentially fire by now.  I guess my model 7 is ok.
 
2014-07-08 10:55:55 PM  

Gyrfalcon: The ONE actual case where a person didn't kill a person, a gun killed a person.


Nope. She pointed a loaded weapon in an unsafe direction and fiddled with it. See all the other posts in here talking about safety.
 
2014-07-08 10:56:35 PM  

dittybopper: You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.


You have not been paying attention.

A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
2014-07-08 10:57:35 PM  

dittybopper: You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.


They use customized trigger groups on theirs
 
2014-07-08 10:59:04 PM  

dittybopper: You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.


Pretty sure their's ain't factory stock.
 
2014-07-08 10:59:54 PM  

rev. dave: I only own one model 700, from 1985.  It has been around long enough that I would know if it was going to accidentially fire by now.  I guess my model 7 is ok.


"Defendants have known since 1979 that at least 1 percent of all Model 700 rifles at that time would 'trick,' allowing them to fire unexpectedly without a trigger pull," the suit said. "(Pollard) contends that this percentage is vastly understated and that all Model 700 rifles are subject to unexpected firing without a trigger pull


you are not a 1% percenter
 
2014-07-08 11:00:15 PM  
1. Kill child
2. ???
3. PROFIT!
 
2014-07-08 11:00:42 PM  

Deathfrogg: I have seen this first-hand. Older Remington rifles WILL spontaneously discharge. All I did was flick off the safety and the rifle fired. I had ten guys standing around me who all saw it happen. I was lucky it was at a range and was sighted on a target. But that biatch popped as soon as I flicked the safety lever. Was an older 30.06 Remington from the mid 1970s.


Some rare percentage of older ones might.

Did anybody fark with the trigger, especially someone who isn't a trained gunsmith?  Because the scuttlebutt I've heard is that the trigger as it comes from the factory won't do it, but if you try to adjust it to a lighter trigger pull without knowing exactly what you are doing, you can induce that very behavior in them.

Now, I've owned a short action ADL in .308, and I currently own a long action ADL in .30'06, both early 1990's vintage, and I've never had that problem.  Nor has anyone I know who has a 700 had that problem.  But then I know the triggers hadn't been farked with, either.  Never saw the need, because the pull was appropriate for a hunting rifle, and the triggers broke like a glass rod with no creep, so why try to fix what isn't broken?
 
2014-07-08 11:02:54 PM  
It's pretty easy to fine tune the 700 trigger ;mine is about 3 lbs. Never a problem because I don't point the damn thing at people.
 
2014-07-08 11:03:35 PM  
Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs


Both of these can't be true.
 
2014-07-08 11:04:44 PM  

Gyrfalcon: dittybopper: You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.

You have not been paying attention.

A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.


Something something lowest bidder
 
2014-07-08 11:05:08 PM  

macross87: I blame the broad....


Dude, you never call a chick a broad.

And really, Barbara Barber?  I've used up all my R's -- and I'm a pirate!
 
2014-07-08 11:05:11 PM  

dittybopper: Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs

Both of these can't be true.


Sure they can. The customized trigger may also suck ass.
 
2014-07-08 11:08:27 PM  

Kanemano: rev. dave: I only own one model 700, from 1985.  It has been around long enough that I would know if it was going to accidentially fire by now.  I guess my model 7 is ok.

"Defendants have known since 1979 that at least 1 percent of all Model 700 rifles at that time would 'trick,' allowing them to fire unexpectedly without a trigger pull," the suit said. "(Pollard) contends that this percentage is vastly understated and that all Model 700 rifles are subject to unexpected firing without a trigger pull


you are not a 1% percenter


Given how popular they are, and how many people I've known who have owned one over the past ~30 years, if the problem was that prevalent, I would almost certainly know someone who has had that issue.

I don't.

Not that I'm saying it can't happen, but you all know I'm a gun guy, and I hang around gun guys, and we all talk about guns, and I can't recall anyone mentioning it happened to them.

Maybe I'm a bit of a statistical anomaly, but I somehow doubt it.
 
2014-07-08 11:09:22 PM  

Luse: dittybopper: Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs

Both of these can't be true.

Sure they can. The customized trigger may also suck ass.


But then it wouldn't be the trigger group that is the topic here.
 
2014-07-08 11:11:12 PM  

dittybopper: Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs

Both of these can't be true.


Never saw the CNBC documentary but I know for a fact that all sniper gear (at least for the Marines) is highly customized before being issued, my first gunny used to tell us more than any of us ever wanted to know about his posting to the armory that did the work, and yes custom trigger groups with adjustable pull and slack were part of the job
 
2014-07-08 11:14:55 PM  

dittybopper: Luse: dittybopper: Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs

Both of these can't be true.

Sure they can. The customized trigger may also suck ass.

But then it wouldn't be the trigger group that is the topic here.


True, I'm just pointing out that there is a possible option c and d and...you know.

On a side note, I'd imagine a Marine sniper's rifle to be much more likely to have a modified trigger, so if fiddling with the trigger was the issue there would be a greater potential for it there. I know none of the numbers, simply musing.
 
2014-07-08 11:18:02 PM  

dittybopper: Deathfrogg: I have seen this first-hand. Older Remington rifles WILL spontaneously discharge. All I did was flick off the safety and the rifle fired. I had ten guys standing around me who all saw it happen. I was lucky it was at a range and was sighted on a target. But that biatch popped as soon as I flicked the safety lever. Was an older 30.06 Remington from the mid 1970s.

Some rare percentage of older ones might.

Did anybody fark with the trigger, especially someone who isn't a trained gunsmith?  Because the scuttlebutt I've heard is that the trigger as it comes from the factory won't do it, but if you try to adjust it to a lighter trigger pull without knowing exactly what you are doing, you can induce that very behavior in them.

Now, I've owned a short action ADL in .308, and I currently own a long action ADL in .30'06, both early 1990's vintage, and I've never had that problem.  Nor has anyone I know who has a 700 had that problem.  But then I know the triggers hadn't been farked with, either.  Never saw the need, because the pull was appropriate for a hunting rifle, and the triggers broke like a glass rod with no creep, so why try to fix what isn't broken?


I suppose thats possible. It wasn't my rifle, it belonged to one of the other guys in the group. I do know that it was the same rifle that was involved in a fatal hunting accident about five years earlier. The owner shot a deer, and the slug went right through and hit someone downrange that was apparently going to shoot the same animal. Thats why you don't hunt in camo.
 
2014-07-08 11:18:43 PM  

Luse: dittybopper: Luse: dittybopper: Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs

Both of these can't be true.

Sure they can. The customized trigger may also suck ass.

But then it wouldn't be the trigger group that is the topic here.

True, I'm just pointing out that there is a possible option c and d and...you know.

On a side note, I'd imagine a Marine sniper's rifle to be much more likely to have a modified trigger, so if fiddling with the trigger was the issue there would be a greater potential for it there. I know none of the numbers, simply musing.


By the time the Marines get done with a rifle all that remains of the original 700 is the receiver
 
2014-07-08 11:20:12 PM  

miniflea: Wasn't there a documentary about this on netflix? Something about the bolt that causes the rifle to discharge. Seems clear that the gun was defective and I feel bad for that kids family but it also seems clear it wasnt being pointed in a safe direction.


Yes, it was a CNBC story. Here is Remington's rebuttal. TL;DW, poor maintenance/ triggers modified out of factory spec can cause the gun to be dangerous, but it's really hard to even replicate one of the problem guns spontaneous discharge.
 
2014-07-08 11:20:46 PM  

Pribar: Deathfrogg: I have seen this first-hand. Older Remington rifles WILL spontaneously discharge. All I did was flick off the safety and the rifle fired. I had ten guys standing around me who all saw it happen. I was lucky it was at a range and was sighted on a target. But that biatch popped as soon as I flicked the safety lever. Was an older 30.06 Remington from the mid 1970s.

Mine fired as I ran the bolt forward, took a chunk out of my palm and ruined my lucky underwear...


/seeing that by fly back at my face wasn't something I want to see again either


I bought several Russian SKS about 20 years ago and after giving one to a brother-in-law, he called back a couple of days later freaking out about how I gave him a full auto. I figured 'bullshiat,' but went to check it out. It would slamfire horribly. Pull the trigger and anywhere from 1 or 2 shots to nearly an extended mag would discharge. Uncontrollably. The firing pin was scored and sticking when it rotated into a certain spot. That's also when I noticed that the bolt still had the hump that engages the select-fire cam. They simply replaced the trigger group with a semi-auto group that didn't have the selector so they could export. You could make the damned things into a basic non-selectable full auto with a 1/8" drill bit and a roll pin from the hardware store.

Also for fun and games, take an SKS, lock the bolt open to expose the breech, insert a single round in the mag and while pointing downward in a safe direction (basic muzzle safety rules here), lightly bump the butt against something solid, like a tree or vehicle. Then, if it didn't discharge, eject the round and inspect the primer.
 
2014-07-08 11:21:04 PM  
Savage rifles, with their accutrigger, good, cheap, and no safety switch doubles as a trigger ißsues
 
2014-07-08 11:23:01 PM  

Luse: dittybopper: Luse: dittybopper: Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.
 
Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs

Both of these can't be true.

Sure they can. The customized trigger may also suck ass.

But then it wouldn't be the trigger group that is the topic here.

True, I'm just pointing out that there is a possible option c and d and...you know.

On a side note, I'd imagine a Marine sniper's rifle to be much more likely to have a modified trigger, so if fiddling with the trigger was the issue there would be a greater potential for it there. I know none of the numbers, simply musing.


Don't forget, however, that the Marine and Army armorers are professionals.   It's their farkin' *JOB* to stone and adjust triggers.

What I'm talking about is Joe Sixpack who heard from a friend that you can adjust the trigger, or he looked it up on the intarwebs, and did the job without the requisite experience to accomplish it.  Probably 9 out of 10 times, it's OK.  But that 1 time out of 10, someone farks it up.

Which might explain the 1%:  If only 1 in 10 guns ever get their trigger adjusted by a garage gunsmith, and only 1 in 10 of those fark it up, that's your 1% right there.
 
2014-07-08 11:23:29 PM  
Bullet dispensing?

4.bp.blogspot.com

"I told him the next one might be coming a little faster."

"Deputy, that might just be the coolest thing I've ever laid ears on."

"I heard it one night on Johnny Carson. Thought it might be a really cool way to threaten someone."
 
2014-07-08 11:24:02 PM  
Yet another responsible gun manufacturer is responsible right up until the point they aren't.  Then it's not just irresponsibility that happens, it's gun level irresponsibility that happens.
 
2014-07-08 11:26:30 PM  
This problem can be alleviated by swapping out the stock trigger group. Marine Precision Weapons Specialists (the guys who build their sniper rifles around a stock Remington 700 acrion) use 3rd-party triggers, negating the defect. I haven't had a problem with mine, but will eventually replace the trigger with a Timney or something whenever.

/and I don't point it at people or things that a .308 can overpenetrate if I don't if someone is behind it
 
2014-07-08 11:27:31 PM  

dforkus: Savage rifles, with their accutrigger, good, cheap, and no safety switch doubles as a trigger ißsues


I like the Savages.  If I were in the market for another bolt action, I'd look at them seriously.
 
2014-07-08 11:35:14 PM  
Don't be fooled! This is just how they will come for your guns... in the form of product safety recalls!!1!!
 
2014-07-08 11:36:27 PM  

b0rg9: Barber's 9-year-old son, Gus, was killed by a Model 700 rifle in a 2000 hunting accident in Montana. The family says the rifle fired when Barber's wife, Barbara, released the safety as she prepared to unload the weapon. The bullet passed through a horse trailer and hit Gus, who was standing behind the trailer.


This is why you always, always, keep the gun pointed down while loaded (and even unloaded).

I was taught to always keep my rifle pointed down as much as you can when not shooting and always treat guns like they're loaded even when you know they're not (not the subject of this thread, I know).


Dang, I thought the lesson was never name your kid "Gus."
 
2014-07-08 11:41:48 PM  

ElLoco: Pribar: Deathfrogg: I have seen this first-hand. Older Remington rifles WILL spontaneously discharge. All I did was flick off the safety and the rifle fired. I had ten guys standing around me who all saw it happen. I was lucky it was at a range and was sighted on a target. But that biatch popped as soon as I flicked the safety lever. Was an older 30.06 Remington from the mid 1970s.

Mine fired as I ran the bolt forward, took a chunk out of my palm and ruined my lucky underwear...


/seeing that by fly back at my face wasn't something I want to see again either

I bought several Russian SKS about 20 years ago and after giving one to a brother-in-law, he called back a couple of days later freaking out about how I gave him a full auto. I figured 'bullshiat,' but went to check it out. It would slamfire horribly. Pull the trigger and anywhere from 1 or 2 shots to nearly an extended mag would discharge. Uncontrollably. The firing pin was scored and sticking when it rotated into a certain spot. That's also when I noticed that the bolt still had the hump that engages the select-fire cam. They simply replaced the trigger group with a semi-auto group that didn't have the selector so they could export. You could make the damned things into a basic non-selectable full auto with a 1/8" drill bit and a roll pin from the hardware store.

Also for fun and games, take an SKS, lock the bolt open to expose the breech, insert a single round in the mag and while pointing downward in a safe direction (basic muzzle safety rules here), lightly bump the butt against something solid, like a tree or vehicle. Then, if it didn't discharge, eject the round and inspect the primer.


Unmaintained/dirty SKSs are notorious for slamfire operations.

A free floating firing pin will dimple the primer. If its cheap ammo you may get a slamfire from the thinner primer or the seating of the primer in the case.

/no issues using milsurp in an AR so far.
 
2014-07-08 11:43:27 PM  
Anyone else thought the thread below this one was about Mauser?
 
2014-07-08 11:44:13 PM  

dittybopper: You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.


A basic 700 and a 700 that has been through military armorers shop are two different animals.
 
2014-07-08 11:44:27 PM  

doofusgumby: Anyone else thought the thread below this one was about Mauser?


guilty

I did a double take.
 
2014-07-08 11:45:38 PM  

dittybopper: You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.


700? Yes. Basic? Not after they're done with it. They're customized to heck and back. Shooters in competition use customized M-16's as well.

Also, while the lady in the suit may have been incompetent, it doesn't change the fact that a rifle discharging unintentionally can cause severe damage. At the very least it could severely injure an unprepared (for the discharge) shooter. Add in a little flail, and there goes your muzzle control. :(

Never had my Rem Mag 7mm do this, but if it had, ouch to say the least.
 
2014-07-08 11:50:47 PM  

dittybopper: You know, the both the Army and Marines have been using the basic Remington 700 action for their sniper rifles for decades now.

Haven't heard of them having an issue.


Pribar: dittybopper: Gyrfalcon
You have not been paying attention.
A very good documentary on CNBC revealed that in fact both the Army and the Marines have been having this exact problem with the Remington for a long time; they've been ignoring it because the 700 is such an outstanding sniper rifle and because Remington has been encouraging the military to pretend nothing is wrong.

Pribar
They use customized trigger groups on theirs

Both of these can't be true.

Never saw the CNBC documentary but I know for a fact that all sniper gear (at least for the Marines) is highly customized before being issued, my first gunny used to tell us more than any of us ever wanted to know about his posting to the armory that did the work, and yes custom trigger groups with adjustable pull and slack were part of the job


From wiki:

The inventor of the firing mechanism, Merle "Mike" Walker, 98 years old at the time of the documentary, told CNBC he proposed what he called a safer trigger in 1948 while the product was still in the testing stage. Walker said his enhanced design was rejected because of the added cost, 5 1/2 cents per gun (adjusted for inflation: $0.54)

Also: what Merle Walker may look like

img1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
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