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(Mirror.co.uk)   Religious bakery tells customer it won't bake a Bert and Ernie cake because something.. something about gay marriage   (mirror.co.uk) divider line 164
    More: Asinine, faiths, Bible Teach, Sesame Street character, Belfast Telegraph, Icing on the Cake, executive directors  
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8990 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2014 at 9:48 AM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2014-07-08 10:02:54 AM  
13 votes:
Funny, there was a time when I thought that the fundamentalist "Bible Baptists" that went on and on about Bert and Ernie being a gay couple were just strange. (The same group was anti-vax way before anyone saw Jenny McCarthy naked because they thought that letting the health department give your kid a shot for any reason was a way for the kid to get secretly RFID chipped as the mark of the beast, I shiat you not!)

Ask a kid watching Sesame Street who Bert and Ernie are, they will tell you that they are friends who live in the same house.  They are pbviously based on the play/movie/television show the Odd Couple and represent the Felix and Oscar of Sesame Street, showing that two people with clearly different hobbies and priorities can learn to get along and live together.  They are not the Steve and Steve gay married couple (not that there is a thing wrong with that concept, but honestly, if you watch Sesame Street, you will notice that they simply do not address adult interpersonal relationships at all.  They, unlike the perverts that come up with this nonsense, don't think it's appropriate to discuss those things with preschoolers.  Whether it's Bert and Ernie being gay, or the notion that Gordon might take up with a white Mrs., they simply do not discuss such matters on the show!)

As for Bert and Ernie being gay, they don't even sleep in the same bed, so it's all in your heads morons.  Get your filthy minds out of the gutter you sex obsessed theist extremists!  Geez.  Not every damn thing in life has to be about sex, especially a show designed to teach kids preschool skills like getting along, telling the truth, and recognizing colors, shapes, letters, numbers.  Oh, yeah, I guess that would be offended to people that still think that people should isolate themselves from anyone different and only need enough education to read their Bibles!
2014-07-08 09:56:58 AM  
10 votes:
Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?
2014-07-08 10:00:47 AM  
9 votes:

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


Do you really want to eat at a lunch counter staffed by people who hate you?
Do you really want to ride on a bus driven by people who hate you?
Do you really want to vote at a polling place manned by people who hate you?
Why, no, of course not - that would be "dickish". You should just stifle your silly desire for equal treatment, and go home.
You are bothering the rest of us while we are trying to watch "American Idol".
2014-07-08 09:53:13 AM  
9 votes:
Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.
2014-07-08 10:00:18 AM  
8 votes:

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?


Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.
2014-07-08 09:59:49 AM  
7 votes:
Dear bakery, stop being bigots.
Dear gay people, stop trying to buy your cakes from bigots.  Even if they cave and make it for you, would you really want to eat it?  Assholes probably put rat turds in it.  Tell the bigots to fark off and go find a sensible bakery.
2014-07-08 09:54:04 AM  
6 votes:
Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?
2014-07-08 09:59:16 AM  
5 votes:

BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.


^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?
2014-07-08 09:44:22 AM  
5 votes:
"the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.
2014-07-08 10:35:14 AM  
4 votes:

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


Do you really want a world where random stores are off limits to you because the haters inside don't like blacks, jews, minorities, redheads, left handed people, muslims, fat chicks, LARPers, or people who can stomach Chicago style pizza?
2014-07-08 10:30:07 AM  
4 votes:

Gaylord Fister: So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?


Yes, if freedom of association means anything.   And people who do so should be prepared to face the full responsibility for the loss of business and ill-will that doing so would generate.

As a people, we've forgotten how much power is truly in our hands, versus running to a big government to remake the world as we would like things to be.   Remember that odious bus policy that forced blacks to sit in the back?   Just how was that resolved, the police?   No- it was voluntary boycotts that brought that bus company to its knees.
2014-07-08 09:59:14 AM  
4 votes:
Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?
2014-07-08 11:10:50 AM  
3 votes:
If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.
2014-07-08 11:04:05 AM  
3 votes:

HoustonNick: We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in


www.thesaudavoice.com

GO
nysiaf.org

fark

www.ohs.org

YOURSELF
2014-07-08 11:02:25 AM  
3 votes:

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?


Most cake shops don't have "We are bigots" outside the door to warn you. But I am in the UK, maybe they do in the US. Once they announce they are bigots to their potential customers, then you sue them, ensuring the financial and publicity penalties for running a public business in a bigoted manner that society has agreed are applied to them. You don't tend to be suing them to force them to make the cake, you go make other arrangements.


The more minorities that pursue such actions, the less often it will happen as either the shops will lose money and go out of business leaving the better businesses with less competition, or some of owners of shops less committed to public bigotry will decide against the financial risk and just get on and do their jobs without trying to enforce their morality on their customers.


We (as a society) wouldn't accept not baking a cake because it had a mixed race couple on it nowadays, so why would we accept any other legally allowed relationship being celebrated. Would you accept a supermarket not serving blacks? Or a MacDonald server turning away Christians? Or a hotel refusing to accept bookings from Jews? If you open your business to the public, then you serve all the members of the public, you don't get to pick and choose. Worry about your own morality, which according to your own rulebook is probably intent on sending you to burn forever for being a hateful scumbag, and let other people make their own (legal) choices.
2014-07-08 10:45:31 AM  
3 votes:
Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

There was a cake lady in our area who wouldn't make us a Harry potter cake (and several dozen themed cupcakes) because she thought the witchcraft was against her christian beliefs. Our response was to tell her that's too bad because this was a huge order that would have made her known to lots of people on the kids bday party circuit. Then we found someone else and told all our guests that the first business doesn't do Harry potter. They all thought that was weird and nobody used her. A woman at work said the lady wouldn't do her daughter's quinceanera cake because she thought the black flowers were inappropriate!! She lost a lot of business from people who were willing to pay good money for custom cakes. She was only in business about two or three years and I imagine it was because she kept turning down jobs.
But nobody had to get the government involved!! No one claimed she discriminated against Hispanics or was oppressing wiccans or any if that horseshiat. You don't like someone's business practices then run them out of business.
2014-07-08 10:41:55 AM  
3 votes:
I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.
2014-07-08 10:29:18 AM  
3 votes:

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay Negro community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


Dialed it back to 1950 for you.

You're welcome.
2014-07-08 09:51:40 AM  
3 votes:

nekom: Who makes a "support gay marriage" cake anyway?

So let's get this gay marriage thing going!  Shall we call our elected representatives?  No, how about we go to the media to present our side?  NO!  Wait, I got it!  We'll get a cake made!  BRILLIANT!


The cake was (now ironically) for Anti-Homophobia day in a part of the UK that doesn't allow gay marriage. I'd also be willing to bet a $3 bill that this wasn't the single pronged approach to marriage equality as your post suggests.
2014-07-08 09:49:23 AM  
3 votes:
"I feel if we don't take a stand with this case, then how can we stand up against it further down the line?"

MacArthur is part right, they shouldn't have to take it, because it's their choice to bake it, so they'll never have that take that stand again, oh no.
2014-07-08 02:23:19 PM  
2 votes:

The_Six_Fingered_Man: He specifically says that "gay marriage" was a factor, not that the customer's orientation was a factor. The customer could have been a straight person ordering the cake for the event and it still would have been declined.

You say it's pretty clear that they refused the order because of orientation, but you cannot find one instance of the owners actually meeting the customer or even knowing the orientation of the customer.


You and GoldSpider are barking up the wrong tree on that. Courts have been clear every time this comes up that the anti-discrimination laws focus on the beliefs of the discriminating person. If you refuse to serve someone believe you believe they meet some trait, it doesn't matter whether they actually do or not: your intent is to discriminate.
2014-07-08 01:39:38 PM  
2 votes:

gshepnyc: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?

1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
[img.fark.net image 300x238][img.fark.net image 300x226][img.fark.net image 288x226][img.fark.net image 256x197]
[img.fark.net image 259x194] [img.fark.net image 252x224]

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.

I love you for this.


Aw, thanks. I made it into a single handy picture
img.fark.net
2014-07-08 01:32:59 PM  
2 votes:
If baking a cake that seems to support marriage equality goes against your conscience, then you have a defective conscience.

In other words, "against your conscience" is not an out when what you believe is patently ridiculous.

Now, if someone wanted a pro-Nazi cake, you as a baker would be within your rights to refuse on grounds that it goes against your conscience.

Use this handy guide: Nazi people = mostly bad     Gay people = mostly good.
2014-07-08 12:29:09 PM  
2 votes:

Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?


1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
img.fark.netimg.fark.netimg.fark.netimg.fark.net
img.fark.net img.fark.net

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.
2014-07-08 11:49:31 AM  
2 votes:

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


ct.politicomments.com
2014-07-08 11:45:53 AM  
2 votes:

machoprogrammer: Legit question here...

In the US, if a bakery refuses to make a wedding cake for gay marriage, yet will still serve gay customers, is that considered illegal? I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers, but if they just refuse to make a certain kind of cake, is that illegal?


If they refused to make wedding cakes for all couples, no. They are not discriminating against a specific group of people.

If they only refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples simply because they're a gay couple, then yes that's discrimination.
2014-07-08 11:34:04 AM  
2 votes:

Deedeemarz: scottydoesntknow: Deedeemarz: Then I suggest they make it themselves, have one delivered, or move. If you choose to live in an area where your options are that limited then I suppose you better learn to make do with what's available. Still not a reason to impose upon a local business person who isn't interested in having your business whatever the reason. If enough other people think the baker is wrong, then his business will suffer.

I'll let The Cap speak on this suggestion

Well, that makes perfect sense if you have the time and money and energy to waste rather than just driving an hour to walmart to buy a cake from people who couldn't care what you want on it. Don't forget to make a sign and plant yourself outside the shop too.


Why should the people who did nothing wrong move? The bakery should move to a place that loves discriminating against gays. I hear Uganda is severely lacking in custom-made cake shops. And Russia.
2014-07-08 11:08:33 AM  
2 votes:

limboslam: Diogenes: "the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.

Yeah! Freedom be damned! You print what we tell you to print, dammit! Would any bakery be hit with a lawsuit if they refused to put on a cake, "Abortion is murder?" Probably not.


You (and several others) appear to be missing the difference between what someone DOES and what someone IS.

An opinion is malleable, it is changeable - yesterday I was pro-life, today I am pro-choice - and more or less does not fundamentally change a person. Carrying a gun on your person is a changeable state - you can quite easily change that state.

You cannot leave your race at the door. You cannot leave your sexual orientation at the door (you can leave your lover and be celibate, but the junk wants what it wants). You cannot leave your presented gender at the door (you can change clothes and shave, but some dudes simply look like chicks and some chicks simply look like dudes. You can't change or explain that).

Generally, in America you can discriminate against someone for what they say or do - being a pro-life activist, open-carrying your arsenal of handguns, your noisy neighbor - but you cannot discriminate against someone for who they are - being black; and in some places, you can't discriminate against someone even if you think they're gay.

// you can leave your religion at the door, too
// it's easy if you try
2014-07-08 11:01:15 AM  
2 votes:

MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad.   Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like.  As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid.  Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do.  The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!


I run a deli. I think women who are on their periods are poisonous and risk ruining society. I want to force women to reveal their cooters to me or a designated representative and prove that they are not gushing blood out of their twat before I allow them to come inside. Do you support my position?
2014-07-08 10:59:59 AM  
2 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: Gaylord Fister: "We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?

The bakery didn't refuse service to them.   McDonald's might decline to make you a Quarter Pounder with
the patty cut into a shape of a pentagram.

Now, if you came in and had a pentagram necklace on and McDonald's simply refused to make you a Quarter Pounder, that would be different.


Um, this bakery does this exact thing on a daily basis. If I ordered a cake with "praise jesus" on it, they would do it. If I ordered one with a bible on it and "1 corinthians", they would do it.

They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

Last time I checked, McDonald's doesn't cut any burgers into any shapes for anyone.
2014-07-08 10:59:48 AM  
2 votes:

Heamer: I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.


Much of what happens in the world only makes sense once you realize that religious people are stupid.
2014-07-08 10:50:29 AM  
2 votes:

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.

Sadly, I think you might be serious.  Hey?  Remember the old mantra, "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Over It'?   Well, most thinking people have.  The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen?  I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.


I respectfully disagree. Discrimination can't be tolerated. The cake or whatever other service was denied based on arbitrary nonsense "belief" is entirely beside the point; it could be disposed of once delivered since it would probably contain "undesirable matter" anyway. The principle of the matter - that is to say, that discrimination is not legal or acceptable in civilized society - is the point, not the cake. And that point rises far above just gay people or any other group - it benefits all of society when this sort of nonsense is removed from it.
2014-07-08 10:30:58 AM  
2 votes:

theflatline: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.


Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.
But a cake store bakes cakes and decorates them.

Bad analogy is bad. Try again.
2014-07-08 10:29:24 AM  
2 votes:
What is it about the baked goods industry that attracts so many attention whores?
2014-07-08 10:26:56 AM  
2 votes:
The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.
2014-07-08 10:25:40 AM  
2 votes:
I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?
2014-07-08 10:23:18 AM  
2 votes:
Some people read waaaay too much into things.

General rule of thumb: if you're constantly worried about the gay sexxin', you're either in prison, or a prisoner of your own thwarted desires...
2014-07-08 10:20:53 AM  
2 votes:
Also, the bible mentions homosexuality only twice, but shellfish eight times. I bet you these hypocritical zombie worshippers wouldn't mind making a cake with a shrimp on it.
2014-07-08 10:20:43 AM  
2 votes:
Why should these people be burdened with others' beliefs? If they don't want to serve gay people, then those people should patronize some other business that will. The former bakery will lose money, and if enough people avoid them, they'll go out of business. Why pick a fight??
2014-07-08 10:16:06 AM  
2 votes:
You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.
2014-07-08 10:13:41 AM  
2 votes:

HoustonNick: While people have a right to believe gay marriage is good, other people also have a right to belief that it is not.  We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in.  Go down the street and get the cake from someone who either supports gay marriage or doesn't give a f*** (like most people) and wants to make money selling cakes.

I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.


I don't support black people sleeping on the same mattresses as white folks. Stop forcing my motel business to support that.
I don't support Latinos eating sandwiches. Stop forcing my lunch counter to support that.
I don't support infidels riding in my holy taxicab, smelling like pork. Stop forcing me to support that.
Yeah, that'll work.
2014-07-08 10:11:33 AM  
2 votes:

Gaylord Fister: "We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?


Or Irish for that matter
historymyths.files.wordpress.com
2014-07-08 10:11:20 AM  
2 votes:
Ontario recently made it legal for doctors to refuse to prescribe or dispense birth control pills for religious reasons.

I'm gonna invent my own crazy religion that says that blood pressure medication is a sin, and refuse to prescribe it to fat pretentious christians.
2014-07-08 09:59:12 AM  
2 votes:
I'm sure PBS has got to be thrilled that their characters have been pulled into this.
2014-07-08 09:55:59 AM  
2 votes:

BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.


Neither do you.
Yet, here you are.
2014-07-08 09:53:42 AM  
2 votes:
Bakeries have really been the showdown spot between the two sides of this argument.
2014-07-08 09:52:11 AM  
2 votes:
Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?
2014-07-09 11:07:30 AM  
1 votes:

debug: grumpfuff: debug: grumpfuff: debug: If you or they can't produce this tenant that they would be violating

This is America. It doesn't matter what the Bible actually says, all that matters is what they BELIEVE it says.

Just like facts don't matter, all that matters is what you BELIEVE to be true(see: Hobby Lobby and "abortifacients")

Not true at all. In the hobby lobby case, they can actually point to scripture that shows birth control is against their religion, thus providing it for someone else would be a violation of their established religious beliefs. You can't do that in the case of the bakery.

A) I was referring to Hobby Lobby calling something like an IUD an abortifacient.

B) Show me the part of the Bible where it says birth control is not allowed. Include book, chapter, verse, and translation, if you will.

Thank you for making point A since that's what the hobby lobby ruling is really about. The bible considers the unborn to be children and thus persons and aborting them would be akin to murder (according to Christians). That's why hobby lobby only fought to not provide for abortifacients. There are plenty of places in the bible thAt can be used to illustrate their belief that abortion is murder and forbidden.

If you can find something similar for the creation and selling of naked goods to homosexuals, then I'll concede that these people have an ESTABLISHED religious belief that would be violated by doing so, otherwise it's bullshiat and these people are trying to mask their bigotry with religion, which I think everyone in this discussion knows is the truth.


A) IUDs are not abortifacients, despite what Hobby Lobby thinks

B) The Bible never says anything about abortion being murder. You just admitted you know of no such verse, so why are you repeating this claim?

C) The Bible also says nothing about selling cakes to gay people
2014-07-09 07:52:54 AM  
1 votes:

grumpfuff: debug: grumpfuff: debug: If you or they can't produce this tenant that they would be violating

This is America. It doesn't matter what the Bible actually says, all that matters is what they BELIEVE it says.

Just like facts don't matter, all that matters is what you BELIEVE to be true(see: Hobby Lobby and "abortifacients")

Not true at all. In the hobby lobby case, they can actually point to scripture that shows birth control is against their religion, thus providing it for someone else would be a violation of their established religious beliefs. You can't do that in the case of the bakery.

A) I was referring to Hobby Lobby calling something like an IUD an abortifacient.

B) Show me the part of the Bible where it says birth control is not allowed. Include book, chapter, verse, and translation, if you will.


Thank you for making point A since that's what the hobby lobby ruling is really about. The bible considers the unborn to be children and thus persons and aborting them would be akin to murder (according to Christians). That's why hobby lobby only fought to not provide for abortifacients. There are plenty of places in the bible thAt can be used to illustrate their belief that abortion is murder and forbidden.

If you can find something similar for the creation and selling of naked goods to homosexuals, then I'll concede that these people have an ESTABLISHED religious belief that would be violated by doing so, otherwise it's bullshiat and these people are trying to mask their bigotry with religion, which I think everyone in this discussion knows is the truth.
2014-07-08 07:41:28 PM  
1 votes:

debug: In the hobby lobby case, they can actually point to scripture that shows birth control is against their religion,


I'll bite.

Which scripture did they point to? Why is that scripture somehow above the science that says that those pills do not do what HL thinks they do?
2014-07-08 07:28:32 PM  
1 votes:

debug: grumpfuff: debug: If you or they can't produce this tenant that they would be violating

This is America. It doesn't matter what the Bible actually says, all that matters is what they BELIEVE it says.

Just like facts don't matter, all that matters is what you BELIEVE to be true(see: Hobby Lobby and "abortifacients")

Not true at all. In the hobby lobby case, they can actually point to scripture that shows birth control is against their religion, thus providing it for someone else would be a violation of their established religious beliefs. You can't do that in the case of the bakery.


A) I was referring to Hobby Lobby calling something like an IUD an abortifacient.

B) Show me the part of the Bible where it says birth control is not allowed. Include book, chapter, verse, and translation, if you will.
2014-07-08 06:45:36 PM  
1 votes:

debug: If you or they can't produce this tenant that they would be violating


This is America. It doesn't matter what the Bible actually says, all that matters is what they BELIEVE it says.

Just like facts don't matter, all that matters is what you BELIEVE to be true(see: Hobby Lobby and "abortifacients")
2014-07-08 06:34:15 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Again, falling back on allusions to 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.

Again, refusing to admit any parallels to the 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.

"Muh comic!"

Yeah, the issue here is a little more nuanced than your bumper sticker sloganeering.

Look, I realize the comparison to the civil rights era makes you uncomfortable because, like GoldSpider, you admit that racial discrimination is bad but refuse to admit that sexual orientation discrimination is bad. But that doesn't mean that we all have to tiptoe around your uncomfortable feelings and refuse to make any such comparisons.


One is a genetic legacy, the other is mental illness.  I really can't imagine why you think those are equivalent.
2014-07-08 06:30:42 PM  
1 votes:
Holy hell I gave up after 4 pages. My favorite part is the trolls using the same nonsense talking points that have been debunked countless times before(ie, "Oh, I'm gonna go to a kosher deli and order bacon")

/but remember, there are no trolls on Fark
2014-07-08 06:21:53 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.

You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?

"Reasonable" has nothing to do with it if we're going to use cases like this to compel businesses to produce whatever goods a customer demands.


And by "produce whatever goods a customer demands," you mean "something they already have," correct?
2014-07-08 06:05:12 PM  
1 votes:

scotchlandia: Educate me, I was busy doing something else when a lifestyle choice became equivacal to being a member of a race or ethnicity


If you think being gay is a "choice", you must have been busy getting your ignorance polished

Also, too, equivocal
2014-07-08 04:55:16 PM  
1 votes:

Ant: rzrwiresunrise: Why should these people be burdened with others' beliefs? If they don't want to serve gay people, then those people should patronize some other business that will. The former bakery will lose money, and if enough people avoid them, they'll go out of business. Why pick a fight??

So financially profitable bigotry can continue unabated? Yay!


What I posted was an almost verbatim copy of a response I got from a colleague at work with whom I discussed this (I shouldn't have, but how often does one get to do this with a real live conservative Catholic Republican??). And then I read the shiat in this thread and just threw my hands up. People like my colleague, GoldSpider and The-Six-Fingered-Man and Reverend Jansen want to view this in a total social and historical vacuum, and there's really nothing anyone can say that will persuade them to do otherwise. They have to isolate the incident and dissect it semantically without thinking through the doom of history because... I don't even know.
2014-07-08 04:33:05 PM  
1 votes:

scotchlandia: Theaetetus: I'm not sure I understand your question: "in what way is it hypocritical to believe that racial discrimination is bad but sexual orientation discrimination is not"? Are you really asking that?

Educate me, I was busy doing something else when a lifestyle choice became equivacal to being a member of a race or ethnicity. I am pretty sure I would bake the cake, because a paying customer is a good customer. I am also sure I wouldn't make a cake I found offensive (pornographic, derogatory); but who can decide what is offensive to another individual? Keep in mind that this is a new shift in the social fabric and be sure to use small words for me.


Sure, happy to.

First, it's pretty well accepted in the scientific community, and beginning to be accepted in the legal community, that sexual orientation is not a "lifestyle choice". Rather, it seems to be an inherent trait linked to some genetic markers and/or environmental effects in the womb. In that regard, it's equivocal to a race or ethnicity, because both are inherent.

Second,  even if it was merely a lifestyle choice, that would make it equivocal to being a member of a religion. Religions are "lifestyle choices", in that they're not inherent, and they can be taken up, dropped, switched, etc. at will.  However, we find religious discrimination to be a bad thing, because we think it would be abhorrent for a majority to force a religious belief on a minority.
Similarly, even if sexual orientation was a "lifestyle choice", we think it would be abhorrent for a majority to force a sexual practice on a minority. Just as it's wrong to say "you must worship the god I tell you to, rather than the one you want to", it's wrong to say "you must fark the person I tell you to, rather than the one you want to."

As for being a new shift in the social fabric, not really... It started several decades ago, when the Supreme Court first started talking about suspect classifications, in which a group is defined by a trait that is immutable, apparent, irrelevant to their ability to contribute to society, and a minority group defined by the trait lacks substantial political power. That goes for race, and it also goes for gender, religion, and sexual orientation.
2014-07-08 04:21:02 PM  
1 votes:

Ant: RRicochet: I wish gays would go back in the closet. I'm sick of hearing about them.

I wish people would stop being against things that don't farking matter. Gay marriage doesn't farking affect you in any way. If you'd stop being stupid, you could stop hearing about it all the time.


Apparently it affected these guys otherwise we wouldn't be hearing about it.,
Ant
2014-07-08 04:11:40 PM  
1 votes:

RRicochet: I wish gays would go back in the closet. I'm sick of hearing about them.


I wish people would stop being against things that don't farking matter. Gay marriage doesn't farking affect you in any way. If you'd stop being stupid, you could stop hearing about it all the time.
2014-07-08 04:10:43 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: scotchlandia: Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I notice you didn't answer... why?

Because my point, which I already made, doesn't require me to invite you to attack me as a Klan-sympathizer, as is clearly your intent with that kind of question.

Not at all: I fully expect you to distance yourself from any Klan sympathies. My intent is to attack you as a hypocrite who admits that discrimination based on race is bad, but refuses to admit that discrimination based on sexual orientation is bad.

Dumb it down for me. How does one equal the other, or in what way is that hypocritical? Also I see what you did there with that "I fully expect you to distance yourself from any Klan sympathies" quip. This is why one discrimination most people agree on is arbiterphobia.

I'm not sure I understand your question: "in what way is it hypocritical to believe that racial discrimination is bad but sexual orientation discrimination is not"? Are you really asking that?


Educate me, I was busy doing something else when a lifestyle choice became equivacal to being a member of a race or ethnicity. I am pretty sure I would bake the cake, because a paying customer is a good customer. I am also sure I wouldn't make a cake I found offensive (pornographic, derogatory); but who can decide what is offensive to another individual? Keep in mind that this is a new shift in the social fabric and be sure to use small words for me.

Thanks.
2014-07-08 03:47:00 PM  
1 votes:

jst3p: Theaetetus: jst3p: Ant: nekom: Who makes a "support gay marriage" cake anyway?

So let's get this gay marriage thing going!  Shall we call our elected representatives?  No, how about we go to the media to present our side?  NO!  Wait, I got it!  We'll get a cake made!  BRILLIANT!

 I wonder how many people are just trolling religious bakeries now, trying to see if they'll refuse to bake a pro-gay rights cake.

Pretty funny, if you ask me.

I live near Boulder, CO and I wonder if I can get a bakery to refuse to make a "traditional marriage party!" cake and then claim religious discrimination.  Theaetetus, want the case?

Which religion would they be discriminating against? I think there are several that could apply there. How about this - get a bakery to refuse to make a "Happy Catholic Marriage!" cake, and then give me a call.

I will request this  decoration be put on it:

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 772x1152]


So, again, which religion would they be allegedly discriminating against?
Ant
2014-07-08 03:32:49 PM  
1 votes:

Notabunny: fta We thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs. It certainly was in contradiction of what the Bible teaches

God hates fondant


Thou shall not cover thine cake in foul sugar paste crap
gja
2014-07-08 03:26:52 PM  
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Yes, curse those lawmakers for making criminals out of people who just wanted to be free to refuse service based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc.!

If we're going to make an act a crime, I think there should at least be a "victim".  I understand why you would disagree though.

Feelings are the victims. And as we all know, there is absolutely nothing worse than hurt feelings.


Or, possibly a larger victim. Try society as a whole, friend. We all suffer for those transgressions in a twisted/connected way.
Do you think we all live in isolation?
2014-07-08 03:10:47 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: Now, you're misrepresenting something I said, for the second time. You're a hypocrite.

Theaetetus: When they "refused the order", they refused the  customer's order.

Did you not say that the order is of the customer?

Theaetetus: It's pretty clear, they refused the order because of sexual orientation of the customers.

They refused the order (the customer's order) because of the sexual orientation of the customers.

You are saying, quite clearly, that because the order was refused (due to being at odds with the owner's beliefs) that the refusal was obviously done because of the orientation of the customer, meaning that the customer is gay or perceived to be gay. Are you not stating this?

Once more, hypocrite, you claimed that I said "because the image has same sex marriage connotations, that the customer that ordered must necessarily be gay." I never said that, and have said the opposite at least a half dozen times. So, either admit that you were wrong and misrepresented what I said; copy-paste where I said that and prove me wrong; or stfu and gfy.


Let's start at the beginning, shall we?

I'm arguing that the bakery assumed the customers had a particular sexual orientation and refused service on those grounds(argument based on assumption based on image requested)

It's pretty clear, they refused the order because of sexual orientation of the customers.(this is clear only to you and is not evidenced by any statement made by the bakery)

the customer was the one who placed the order. When they "refused the order", they refused the  customer's order.(refusal of an order based on message, according to the online statement that you linked)

he specifically says that gay marriage was a factor they considered in their decision making to refuse the order.(gay marriage was a factor they considered, not the orientation of the ordering customer)

So nowhere does it state that the bakery refused because of the orientation of the customer, but you have deduced that since they refused to print the image, that the bakery assumed that they customers were gay. This is not supported by any evidence that you have decided to grace us with. You are conflating the image requested with the orientation of the customer and indicating that you think it is "pretty clear" that the sexual orientation of the customers was the reason for the refusal.

You assume that since the order was refused and that the image was in support of same sex marriage, that the sexual orientation of the customer is "pretty clear."

If those were not your words (as I copied and pasted from this thread), then you should really have the modmins examine your account for possible unwarranted intrusion.
2014-07-08 03:00:48 PM  
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Again, falling back on allusions to 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.

Again, refusing to admit any parallels to the 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.

"Muh comic!"

Yeah, the issue here is a little more nuanced than your bumper sticker sloganeering.


Look, I realize the comparison to the civil rights era makes you uncomfortable because, like GoldSpider, you admit that racial discrimination is bad but refuse to admit that sexual orientation discrimination is bad. But that doesn't mean that we all have to tiptoe around your uncomfortable feelings and refuse to make any such comparisons.
2014-07-08 02:42:33 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I notice you didn't answer... why?

Because my point, which I already made, doesn't require me to invite you to attack me as a Klan-sympathizer, as is clearly your intent with that kind of question.


Not at all: I fully expect you to distance yourself from any Klan sympathies. My intent is to attack you as a hypocrite who admits that discrimination based on race is bad, but refuses to admit that discrimination based on sexual orientation is bad.
2014-07-08 02:42:20 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: genner: From a legal stand point there's only one real question that needs to be answered.
If a hetro couple had ordered the same cake would they have refused service.
I thinks it's obvious that they would have. Therefore they were treated equally.

Legally, that's about as correct as "gay people have the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as heterosexual people, so they are treated equally."


Nope.  If I have a marriage certificate with my name on it Dave cannot sign the other portion and get it accepted but Denise can.  Dave does not have the same rights (to marry such a stud of course) as Denise due to his gender therefore it is not equality.  I know this because I actually did believe what you said for some time even though I supported gay rights. I never bought the equality argument until it was put to me that way.
2014-07-08 02:36:11 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Let's say the bakery was run by some Klan wizard, and he refused to make a sheet cake that had a message celebrating black history month, because he found it offensive... Would you be defending that in the same way?

"I bet you'd defend a Klansman too!" is an interesting fallback point to retreat to, if not terribly surprising.


We've already pointed out the similarities between the fight for racial equality and the fight for sexual orientation equality, so, no, it's not terribly surprising at all. I notice you didn't answer... why?
2014-07-08 02:34:32 PM  
1 votes:
From a legal stand point there's only one real question that needs to be answered.
If a hetro couple had ordered the same cake would they have refused service.
I thinks it's obvious that they would have. Therefore they were treated equally.
2014-07-08 02:33:16 PM  
1 votes:

Cold_Sassy: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.

Sadly, I think you might be serious.  Hey?  Remember the old mantra, "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Over It'?   Well, most thinking people have.  The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen?  I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.

Thank you for saying this.  Don't often see this level of intelligence on FARK.


You could be have a bucket of intelligence thrown in your face and you wouldn't recognize it.

How many people are discussing this now? Not just on Fark, either --  it will make some TV news broadcast, obviously Facebook posts, etc. I'm guessing millions if not tens of millions.

That's a lot of publicity for a cause and they certainly wouldn't get that by just going to another bakery.

Or did you think the cake was the actual point? Geez, think a minute before you post.
2014-07-08 02:28:32 PM  
1 votes:

Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?


www.abhmuseum.org

Yeah.  Just go somewhere else.
2014-07-08 02:23:33 PM  
1 votes:

Biological Ali: jst3p: That isn't accurate either. He is refusing to create a cake with a phrase on it. It isn't the same as refusing to make a wedding cake for two men because they are gay. I think my analogy, refusing to make a cake that says "Girls rule, boys drool" is a better comparison. It isn't the customer he objects to, it is the message.

You might have a point if the bakery had a general policy of not making cakes with political messages on them - that would qualify this particular cake as a product they don't normally produce. But apparently don't have such a policy - or if they do, they haven't bothered to make that argument. All I've been able to gather is that they refused because they have a problem with this specific political message.

Now, if you don't normally have an issue with baking cakes with political slogans on them, but you do have a problem with baking cakes with political slogans that support gay people, then yes - you very clearly are discriminating against gay people.


You may find this shocking but very few hetro wedding cakes  have political slogans  I doubt they've made one before.
2014-07-08 02:17:55 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: In his statement, he specifically says that gay marriage was a factor they considered in their decision making to refuse the order.

And what does that have to do with the customer?


... the customer was the one who placed the order. When they "refused the order", they refused the  customer's order. Sorry, I thought that was obvious and didn't need to be spelled out.

Theaetetus: It's pretty clear, they refused the order because of sexual orientation of the customers.

Clear to who?   If you have another source that indicates the customer is gay, and that the bakery owner knew this, then by all means provide it.


Ah, so we're back to this, then? The bakery owner can assume someone is gay, and refuse service to them because they're gay, but if they're wrong and the person isn't gay, then it's magically not discrimination?
2014-07-08 02:04:13 PM  
1 votes:

Prince George: In this case though CTW has specifically stated that Bert and Ernie are children puppets. They have no sexual orientation and you are a sick individual if you feel the need to attach any sexual orientation to them and don't want them to be used as a part of that debate.


Part of this whole kerfuffle is that people who live in the less densely populated parts of the USA think of "roomates" as something you have in college, but not in "real life" once you get a job.  They simply have no idea how insane the housing situation is on either coast, and how normal it is for people to have roomates well into adulthood.  Case in point:  Having recently moved to the northeast, at a social function someone mentioned that two of her housemates were getting married to each other.  I chuckled and asked, "So who's moving out, you or them?"  She gives me a funny look and says "Nobody's moving out."  My midwestern jaw drops.  For people in "real america", the only imaginable reason for two or more adults to be sharing a residence would be if they were farking.
2014-07-08 02:01:27 PM  
1 votes:
Cake thing aside I think whoever the customer is/are are douches for associating gay rights/marriage with Bert and Ernie.
2014-07-08 01:58:51 PM  
1 votes:

jst3p: Theaetetus: jst3p: Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.

OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?

What if they didn't want to make a cake that stated "Girls rule, boys drool!"

If they follow it up with a statement that they refused to make the cake because they believe women are inferior, then they'd likely get a similar letter from the Equality Commission.

Yeah, I am late to the thread and missed that until the post previous to this one. Thanks.

Bigots need to learn to shut up about their reasons for refusing service if they want to be allowed to refuse service for bigoted reasons.


They can't stop themselves. It's no fun being holy if they can't be holier than someone, and make sure that person knows it.
2014-07-08 01:47:53 PM  
1 votes:

fiddlehead: Tom_Slick: If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.

I see Sesame Street and Disney cakes at my local grocery store all the time.


That doesn't make it legal. I imagine if they wanted they could hire an army of lawyers to go around with cease and deist orders for years and still never hit every bakery.  Besides that would make them the douches that ruined little Tommy's birthday and that would not be good advertising. They're better accepting it as free advertising.  In this case though CTW has specifically stated that Bert and Ernie are children puppets. They have no sexual orientation and you are a sick individual if you feel the need to attach any sexual orientation to them and don't want them to be used as a part of that debate.
2014-07-08 01:32:29 PM  
1 votes:

theflatline: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.


You missed the point. This bakery offers to make cakes but then chooses discriminate. I don't think kosher delis sell pork chops.
2014-07-08 01:24:31 PM  
1 votes:
In this instance couldn't they say, "Sorry, they're copyrighted characters and we don't have permission to use their likenesses."?
2014-07-08 01:11:53 PM  
1 votes:
Does anyone else have the sudden mental image of Theaetetus sitting in a court room flashing pictures of people making faces at the judge and opposing council as they're making their arguments?


No, because he spends all his time clogging up threads on this site.
2014-07-08 01:08:26 PM  
1 votes:
The_Six_Fingered_Man:  GoldSpider thinks that a cake, no matter what the image or design, is a representative advertisement of the bakery. And he's correct. You seem to think that it's a pair of pants or an unrelated image. I am having trouble finding any reasonableness in your replies.


Well, he's partially correct.  It's an advertisement of the quality of the bakery and nothing more.  It is not an advertisement of the beliefs of the people that work at or own the bakery or the individual that decorated the cake.  Why the personal beliefs of these people are involved in any way makes no sense and making baked goods for people that have different beliefs than they do in no way infringes on their actual beliefs.  I'm quite sure there is no passage in the bible that states it is sinful to make baked goods for sinners, so how is this actually infringing upon their beliefs?

Like I said earlier, Jesus didn't refuse to give loaves and fishes to anyone.
2014-07-08 01:06:13 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: ... this particular cake, which you agree we're talking about, doesn't involve any cake design. What's a non-sequitor about that?


The fact that you attributed the design of this cake to all offerings from the bakery. "they make custom cakes as requested by the customer. Specifically, they don't design cakes - they make sheet cakes and print an image on the face. It doesn't include any creative input from them." They did not "design" the face of this cake, but that is not to mean that they do not design ANY cakes, as you suggest.

Theaetetus: Also, you do know that that's true, don't you?


Yes, I do, which is how I picked up on your attempt.

Theaetetus: For example, if you believe that whites are superior and you don't want to rent your house to anyone except whites, then yes, the government can most certainly prevent you from saying that, and can force you to say that you'll rent your house to anyone of any race. It's been this way for what, almost 50 years now? Why is this so shocking to you?


They can require that I present an equal opportunity in my advertisements. They cannot require, absent evidence of actual discrimination, that I rent to a non-white over a white person. In other words, they cannot compel me to conduct business with that person absent actual discrimination. The bakery, by making the cake, is creating a product and conducting business.

Theaetetus: Or is it that political speech and creative speech (and also scientific speech) are protected more than commercial speech? Nah, all speech must be identical, right?


So you agree that political speech is more protected than commercial speech. Is the stance on same sex marriage not a political stance as well as a religious stance? Is it not afforded greater protection than plain commercial speech? If speech can be classified as both political and commercial in nature, which protections is it afforded?

Theaetetus: ... my god, you really  are trying to claim that the modmins and Drew endorse every comment that remains on the site after they've had an opportunity to remove it. That's it. You're a looney.


That's not what I am claiming at all. You are the one trying to analogize the comments posted on a somewhat open forum are the same as content created by a single person in the course of business. If Drew was the only one posting here, I could absolutely infer that the postings here were representative of his overall beliefs. Since he is not, all I can infer is that certain types of content go against his beliefs, whether they be political, business, religion, or science related. You can try once again to say that this statement means that I think Drew personally reviews each comment to ensure that each one is a stringent adherence to his personal beliefs, but you would once again be misrepresenting my position.
2014-07-08 01:00:26 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein:
So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?

Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?

If a black guy goes to a fish place and insists on having a steak, it would be racist to suggest he go to a different restaurant. Got it.


If these guys went into a bakery that makes custom cakes with customer-requested images and insisted on having a steak, they'd be wrong. But they didn't. They asked for a custom cake with a customer-requested image.
2014-07-08 12:57:53 PM  
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: Again, falling back on allusions to 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.


Again, refusing to admit any parallels to the 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.
s2.hubimg.com
2014-07-08 12:49:40 PM  
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.

They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?

It says right in the article that the bakery "refused to make a cake featuring the slogan". It's the specific product that they didn't want to make, and not a carte blanche refusal to serve gay people.

It doesn't say anywhere in the article that they offered to make a different cake. Rather, they refused the order and refunded the customer's money.

So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?


Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?
2014-07-08 12:43:39 PM  
1 votes:
"Hey Chuck! We can't go making a gay rights cake! If the townspeople see it they'll assume we aren't bigots! And then our friends, families, and churches will condemn us for not being bigots! It would be a DISASTER."
2014-07-08 12:39:21 PM  
1 votes:

stpauler: Frank N Stein:

So they went to another company and got the product that they wanted to, and the other bakery didn't have to make a product that they didn't want to. Why should the government be involved again?

Because laws. Laws that were passed. Maybe also due in part to Northern Ireland's history of not quite getting along with those of other opinions.

The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland is a non departmental public body established by the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Our powers and duties derive from a number of statutes which have been enacted over the last decades, providing protection against discrimination on the grounds of age, disability, race, religion and political opinion, sex and sexual orientation. We also have responsibilities arising from the Northern Ireland Act 1998 in respect of the statutory equality and good relations duties which apply to public authorities.

Our sponsor Department is the Office of the First and deputy First Minister which carries responsibilities for equality policy and legislation in the Northern Ireland Executive.
- See more at: http://www.equalityni.org/HeaderLinks/About-Us#sthash.MnwyJWcH.dpuf


Okay, so then why do you believe that there should there be this law which requires a company to make a product that it doesn't want to?
2014-07-08 12:34:31 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Deliberately misunderstanding/misrepresenting a point


You'll have to cut him some slack on that one--he's a lawyer, he can't help it.  Ever been in a court room?  The sheer amount of misrepresentation and playing dumb by all attorneys present is enough to make a sane person start doubting reality.
2014-07-08 12:27:20 PM  
1 votes:
Well, the religious right's efforts to block gay marriage are being overturned state by state on an almost weekly basis. Now all they can do is fight for bakers' rights. They lost the battle long ago, now they're just limping along. Good riddance.

(Yes, I am fully aware that this particular example comes from the UK.)
2014-07-08 12:26:21 PM  
1 votes:

The_Six_Fingered_Man: In GoldSpider's case, you have the business' products being specifically created to display a set message that cannot be changed or deleted on a whim in contravention to the beliefs of those that created it.


So? I don't think making a cake and writing a message on it like "Don and James 4 Ever" means I necessarily support their being married.
2014-07-08 12:24:21 PM  
1 votes:

doubled99: Except that being gay is not a "lifestyle." It's who a person is. So, if you love someone, you have to love all of them, even if that means that you are accepting that a part of them is not what you hoped for.


Oh, is that the rule?


Yes. Love someone=love them. I expect you to love your kid/brother/sister/niece/nephew/best friend/whoever even if they turn out to be gay. If you can't handle that, you do not love them. Get it?
2014-07-08 12:19:15 PM  
1 votes:

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The only reason CTW refused to take a clear stand is because it's a controversial issue

Tom_Slick: No they took a stand because they are puppets aimed at children not a political show.


Horse Hockey. "Taking a stand" would have been "No, they're not gay, they both like girls" or "yes they're gay, deal with it"

Given that many muppets have a clear and obvious heterosexual orientation, saying "They have no sexual orientation, they're puppets" is the exact opposite of "taking a stand" - it's a complete cop-out in the hopes of avoiding the issue so they don't have to deal with the small minded anger of a bunch of knuckledragging bigots, or the scornful derision of gay activists.
 

Tom_Slick: They can show 2 people of the same sex living together without discussing their sex life

. Children will relate to it as it fits what they see around them.


They can also show 2 people of the same sex living together without discussing their sex life. Children will relate to it as it fits what they see around them.

But what's interesting here is the way you  switched from talking about "sexual orientation" to talking about "sex life", because I think we can all agree that talking about anyone's sex life on SS is inappropriate, regardless of orientation. Do you disagree? But that little switcheroo is pretty common in discussion with people who are opposed to "normalizing" gay relationships. Are you one of those people, Tom_Slick?
2014-07-08 12:18:34 PM  
1 votes:

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


Tolerance of intolerance is no virtue.
2014-07-08 12:11:29 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: GoldSpider's probably also concerned about the white restaurant owners who were forced to serve black patrons and were worried that their KKK friends might conclude that they were okay with desegregation.

Again, willful misunderstanding of "discrimination" and how it applies in this case.


Pro-tip: merely insisting that everyone is misunderstanding the point doesn't actually convince anyone. You have to at least provide some argument as to what you believe the proper understanding is.
2014-07-08 12:10:00 PM  
1 votes:

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"

Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.

Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense. Or if I thought of the cake as the company owner's first born son. Or if I thought of the cake as the pair of pants you must be wearing on your head to attempt such a strained analogy.

Is the cake not a representation of the business? It is the product that they present to the public to show their business. It is mountains different than a first born son or a pair of pants. I get that you were going for ridiculous to show what you think of the argument, but come on.


No, it's not, because they make custom cakes as requested by the customer. Specifically, they don't design cakes - they make sheet cakes and print an image on the face. It doesn't include any creative input from them.

A cake from a bakery is an edible business card with which the bakery promotes their product.

Not if the cake has no identifying marks on it and is indistinguishable from the sheet cake you can get at a grocery.

It is more akin to letterhead than anything else, especially the two "analogies" that you tossed out without giving so much as a thought to the person who suggested it.

Not at all. A better comparison would be to say that the companies who make printer paper are making company letterhead - since it's actually, you know, letterhead - and say that they explicitly endorse any message that anyone prints on their paper. No one would believe that to be true, just as no one believes GoldSpider endorses gay marriage because of that colorful banner that appeared on his personally-owned and operated computer screen a few minutes ago.
2014-07-08 12:09:26 PM  
1 votes:

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"

Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.

Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense. Or if I thought of the cake as the company owner's first born son. Or if I thought of the cake as the pair of pants you must be wearing on your head to attempt such a strained analogy.

Is the cake not a representation of the business? It is the product that they present to the public to show their business. It is mountains different than a first born son or a pair of pants. I get that you were going for ridiculous to show what you think of the argument, but come on.

A cake from a bakery is an edible business card with which the bakery promotes their product. It is more akin to letterhead than anything else, especially the two "analogies" that you tossed out without giving so much as a thought to the person who suggested it. People will see a cake and, if well made and tasty, ask who made it. The cake is just as much of an advertisement of the business as a flyer or TV commercial.


If their cake tastes awful, it's a sign the cake shop sucks.

If the cake says something you don't like, it's a sign the guy who ordered the cake believes it, not the cake shop.

You do realize that the same t shirt manufacturers
make both Democrat and Republican shirts! How can they clearly believe both parties at the same time???
2014-07-08 12:05:14 PM  
1 votes:

bestsportnascar: I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?


Couple of points:

1. Yes, I would be just as ok with a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views as I would be with a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build an Islamic Rainbow Alliance Queermosque because of their views -- no more and no less.  Whether or not I agree with the views isn't the criterion for me, and I submit it shouldn't be the criterion for anyone.

2. I'm not sure if you're giving this terrible analogy because you don't see the difference, but there is a difference between boycotting a business (which is more or less the scenario you gave), and a business refusing to serve a (would-be) paying customer.

3. You do understand that boycotts are perfectly legal, right?  If my gay cousin wants to boycott Chik-Fil-A, she has the right to do so.  If my fundamentalist neighbor wants to boycott Ben and Jerry's, he's free to do so as well.

4. In the USA at least, there is the concept of  public accommodations.  A bakery is a public accommodation.  IANAL but I don't think the laws regarding public accommodation would apply to a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A.
2014-07-08 12:04:28 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.

You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?


Hey, GoldSpider...
d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net
That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?
2014-07-08 11:50:40 AM  
1 votes:

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The only reason CTW refused to take a clear stand is because it's a controversial issue, and too many small minded bigots would stop watching the show and start writing angry letters if they came out and admitted that E&B are gay.


No they took a stand because they are puppets aimed at children not a political show.  They can show 2 people of the same sex living together without discussing their sex life,  Children will relate to it as it fits what they see around them.
2014-07-08 11:47:50 AM  
1 votes:
They should close their bakery and start a "church" with themselves as paid clergy -- that sells cakes as a permanent fundraising venture.

/ would be much easier to defend whatever religious views you want
// bonus: no taxes!
2014-07-08 11:46:07 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: ReverendJasen: They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

You aren't missing anything.  This is a point that many in this thread are simply refusing to acknowledge because it castrates most of their argument.


Please explain what their religion is against then. Sesame Street characters who are not married (gay or otherwise)? Or customers who are gay?

These are the only two relevant factors in this case.
2014-07-08 11:45:48 AM  
1 votes:

machoprogrammer: I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers


Depends on the place. Gayness isn't legally protected nationwide like blackness is.
2014-07-08 11:42:54 AM  
1 votes:

Chongo79: "Why, hello there Mr. Atheist baker. Could I have a cake for my son's first communion?"


Why yes you can, because me making a cake for you in no way effects what I personally believe.
2014-07-08 11:41:35 AM  
1 votes:

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


Do you really want to be in business serving people that you hate?
2014-07-08 11:41:29 AM  
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?


But they clearly do wish to provide the service and make money, or they wouldn't run a bakery.
2014-07-08 11:40:26 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: This. In that it's clear that freedom of speech isn't being infringed at all.

I don't think the government here in the U.S. can compel you to endorse a particular viewpoint that you disagree with, but I could be mistaken.


I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with," and I know I'm not mistaken.
2014-07-08 11:40:15 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: ReverendJasen: They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

You aren't missing anything.  This is a point that many in this thread are simply refusing to acknowledge because it castrates most of their argument.


Sure, if that was actually their reasoning.

BUT it wasn't. Their reasoning was they won't bake a cake for a gay couple. If the Bert/Ernie picture had nothing to do with it and the cake instead said "Bill and Bob Forever" do you think the company would've baked it? Of course not.
2014-07-08 11:37:37 AM  
1 votes:

HoustonNick: I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.


Your rights end where your "Open for business" sign begins. Just suck it up and make the cake, Nancy. You're only making yourself look bad otherwise.
2014-07-08 11:37:31 AM  
1 votes:
I wonder where all of the Catholic bakers are that refuse to make cakes for second weddings.
2014-07-08 11:35:24 AM  
1 votes:

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


He didn't. The people with these beliefs aren't following the Jesus of the Bible, they're following the Jesus who conforms to their prejudices. That's the only reason why they'd even bother following him.
2014-07-08 11:32:31 AM  
1 votes:

Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.


They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.
2014-07-08 11:28:48 AM  
1 votes:
Didn't Seasame Street Workshop say NO to the LGBTQ petitioners who wanted a wedding between Bert and Ernie?  Reason being that they are puppets who do not have a sexual orientation or identity.
2014-07-08 11:26:10 AM  
1 votes:

Serious Black: MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad.   Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like.  As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid.  Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do.  The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!

I run a deli. I think women who are on their periods are poisonous and risk ruining society. I want to force women to reveal their cooters to me or a designated representative and prove that they are not gushing blood out of their twat before I allow them to come inside. Do you support my position?

"As long as it doesn't hurt anyone,

 "  Sexual assult would not qualify.  But if some ultra conservitive Islamic wanted to kick all the woman out of his coffee house. I have no problem with him doing so.  I would just not give him my money.  There is a big difference between some butt head that will not serve "X" minority and a LAW that says "X" type of people does not have the same freedom other citizens have.   If someone doesn't want to serve my brown wife and my mutt kids, fine we go somewhere else, and laugh the whole way out the door.  That is freedom.  It sucks that aholes exist but thankfully they don't generally last long in modern American culture.  I think what people are trying to tell the gay community is that: Most people support your right to do what you want, but when you start using laws to force the issue, then You become the A-hole.  And that is uncool.
2014-07-08 11:25:52 AM  
1 votes:

Son of Thunder: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Brilliant.

Next, we can drive a bakery owned by black people out of business if they decline to make a cake with white-power slogans on it. Then we'll find a bakery owned by Muslims and order a cake with an image of Muhammad on it, then use their reaction as an excuse to run them out of business. Top it off with a cake that says "The Holocaust Never Happened" from a bakery run by Jewish people, and call it a productive day.


sure, and we can put the signs back up forbidding black people at lunch counters, prohibit jews from shopping in muslim owned stores, whatever.

I see you still are the same pants on head reactionary you always are.  Nice to see consistency.
2014-07-08 11:25:29 AM  
1 votes:

Tom_Slick: If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.


I see Sesame Street and Disney cakes at my local grocery store all the time.
2014-07-08 11:23:52 AM  
1 votes:

Deedeemarz: Then I suggest they make it themselves, have one delivered, or move. If you choose to live in an area where your options are that limited then I suppose you better learn to make do with what's available. Still not a reason to impose upon a local business person who isn't interested in having your business whatever the reason. If enough other people think the baker is wrong, then his business will suffer.


I'll let The Cap speak on this suggestion

static.comicvine.com
2014-07-08 11:16:14 AM  
1 votes:
I think Sesame Street has made it clear you're a sick farker if you feel the need to assign any sexual orientation to a children's puppet.  They own it they made it clear they want nothing to do with the debate either way so no I wouldn't make your cake. How about a Luke and Han cake?
2014-07-08 11:12:14 AM  
1 votes:

Timid Goddess: Every so often I have a dream weird enough to remember.  A number of years ago, I had one about Ernie having a sex change and becoming Ernestina because Sesame Street was concerned that Bert and Ernie would be seen as a gay couple instead of as roommates.  Waking up, I thought it was stupid reasoning and kinda funny.  Might be why that became one of the dreams I remember for years or decades.

I read the article expecting to see a religious bakery refusing to make a cake for a kids birthday because of that kind of reasoning.  Burt and Ernie are fictional characters on a kids show aimed at toddlers and preschoolers.  Because of that they are portrayed in a manner that has no sexual dimension whatsoever.  I was surprised to see someone actually trying to portray a pair of kids characters as a homosexual couple in order to protest to gain the right for homosexuals to marry in that area of the country.

In the article this seems to be a matter of courtesy and common sense.  If the organization knew that the bakery was owned by religious people, they should have found another bakery rather than offend the owners of the bakery that they tried to hire for a part of their protest.  If they didn't know, they should have apologized, or at least made a token apology, and gone to a different bakery.

I really don't see any reason to ban homosexual marriage, polygamous marriage, etc. as long as all parties have legal rights to consent to the marriage.  An underage kid can't consent so no underage marriage.  Critters can't consent, so no marriage to turtles or any other critters.  If you are legally able to choose to consent and don't want to be in a marriage with a same sex partner or more than one partner, don't consent to be in one and you won't be in one.

As for religion, if the Church of X Denomination doesn't agree with homosexual marriage as a group, they don't have to perform the wedding ceremony.  As long as the couple has the marriage license, the marriage is still leg ...


The people being discriminated against should have made an apology? My god, this is the stupidest one yet.
2014-07-08 11:10:45 AM  
1 votes:

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Yeah, that makes a chowder out of my first headline. The second one stands


In fairness, subby's headline was misleading/deceptive.
2014-07-08 11:10:16 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.

You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?

"Reasonable" has nothing to do with it if we're going to use cases like this to compel businesses to produce whatever goods a customer demands.


THEY'RE ASKING A BAKERY THAT MAKES CAKES TO MAKE A CAKE. THIS BUSINESS ALREADY PRODUCES THESE THINGS. THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO PRODUCE THIS ONE BECAUSE THEY ARE BIGOTS.
2014-07-08 11:09:54 AM  
1 votes:
1. I really don't see Bert & Ernie as gay. They're more like classic comedy teams such as Abbot & Costello or Martin & Lewis, or whoever Bing Crosby & Bob Hope were playing in the various "Road to..." movies. Buddies. Pals. Roomies out of necessity, not out of some deep abiding love for one another. They have a symbiotic relationship. One guy is kinda grumpy and needs the friendly charm of the other in order to get along in society, while the other is kinda naive and needs the stalwart pessimism of the other to protect him from ne'er-do-wells. But gay? No. I just don't see it in those two.

Now Statler & Waldorf? Those guys are totally a couple.

2. While I think it's bigoted and awful that people refuse service because of their religious beliefs, I also think it's insane to take your business to someone who wants to be a total dick about their religious beliefs. I don't shop at Hobby Lobby if I can help it. I don't give money to Chic Fil'A, and I don't go to bakeries or restaurants that are operated by bigots. I suggest other people do the same. Eventually, if they stop seeing as many customers they lose money and go out of business. It may take years, but in the end it's worth it to watch them crash & burn because they have God's finger up their ass.
2014-07-08 11:08:23 AM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?


To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?


Seriously, this has always bugged the hell out of me.

What kind of pervert looks at 2 puppets portraying 2 guys who live in the same house and imagines a whole sexual relationship between them?
2014-07-08 11:03:19 AM  
1 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?

You can love someone, but still not support their lifestyle.

Personally, I don't care. Marry your cat if you want.


Except that being gay is not a "lifestyle." It's who a person is. So, if you love someone, you have to love all of them, even if that means that you are accepting that a part of them is not what you hoped for.
2014-07-08 11:01:12 AM  
1 votes:
Smile. Make the cake. Drop the cake during delivery. Give them a refund. Problem solved. They are, after all, pursuing you to make their cake as a calculated scene in political thuggery. Return the favor.

Or, they could go to a Muslim Bakery (NSFW) and demand a gay wedding cake covered in the symbols of Israel.

Yes. let's see the strength of their convictions. Go ahead. I dare you.
2014-07-08 10:58:15 AM  
1 votes:

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Alternate Headline: Anti-gay bigot so obsessed with homosexuality that he sees it *everywhere*

Alternate Alternate Headline: Closeted homosexual acts like a bigot


Look who didn't read the article.
2014-07-08 10:56:46 AM  
1 votes:
Alternate Headline: Anti-gay bigot so obsessed with homosexuality that he sees it *everywhere*

Alternate Alternate Headline: Closeted homosexual acts like a bigot
2014-07-08 10:53:22 AM  
1 votes:

Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?


Not everyone lives in New York City and has fairly easy access to a couple dozen bakers. My mom grew up in a town that currently has 3,500 residents. How many bakers do you think work there?
2014-07-08 10:51:36 AM  
1 votes:
Every so often I have a dream weird enough to remember.  A number of years ago, I had one about Ernie having a sex change and becoming Ernestina because Sesame Street was concerned that Bert and Ernie would be seen as a gay couple instead of as roommates.  Waking up, I thought it was stupid reasoning and kinda funny.  Might be why that became one of the dreams I remember for years or decades.

I read the article expecting to see a religious bakery refusing to make a cake for a kids birthday because of that kind of reasoning.  Burt and Ernie are fictional characters on a kids show aimed at toddlers and preschoolers.  Because of that they are portrayed in a manner that has no sexual dimension whatsoever.  I was surprised to see someone actually trying to portray a pair of kids characters as a homosexual couple in order to protest to gain the right for homosexuals to marry in that area of the country.

In the article this seems to be a matter of courtesy and common sense.  If the organization knew that the bakery was owned by religious people, they should have found another bakery rather than offend the owners of the bakery that they tried to hire for a part of their protest.  If they didn't know, they should have apologized, or at least made a token apology, and gone to a different bakery.

I really don't see any reason to ban homosexual marriage, polygamous marriage, etc. as long as all parties have legal rights to consent to the marriage.  An underage kid can't consent so no underage marriage.  Critters can't consent, so no marriage to turtles or any other critters.  If you are legally able to choose to consent and don't want to be in a marriage with a same sex partner or more than one partner, don't consent to be in one and you won't be in one.

As for religion, if the Church of X Denomination doesn't agree with homosexual marriage as a group, they don't have to perform the wedding ceremony.  As long as the couple has the marriage license, the marriage is still legal and there are probably several other denominations that will perform the ceremony, if the couple doesn't just get married at the justice of the peace like a lot of heterosexual couples do.
2014-07-08 10:51:17 AM  
1 votes:

limboslam: Diogenes: "the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.

Yeah! Freedom be damned! You print what we tell you to print, dammit! Would any bakery be hit with a lawsuit if they refused to put on a cake, "Abortion is murder?" Probably not.


Yeah! It's not like screaming about being oppressed is something that very many religious folks (especially Christians) do.

I agree with you suing them isn't really a battle worth fighting but lets not pretend that religious folks are morally superior on this front.
2014-07-08 10:45:48 AM  
1 votes:

Diogenes: "the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.


Yeah! Freedom be damned! You print what we tell you to print, dammit! Would any bakery be hit with a lawsuit if they refused to put on a cake, "Abortion is murder?" Probably not.
2014-07-08 10:44:50 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.


You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?
2014-07-08 10:44:05 AM  
1 votes:
Matthew 26:49
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.

So this religious bakery is upset because their faith disagrees with a gay lifestyle? Their religion based upon the life of a man who spent a majority of his life with 12 other men.

In Minnesota if someone does not want concealed weapons in their establishment they need to post by the door "guns banned on this premises", or something similar. If someone wants to be this bigoted maybe they need to post something similar so gay people and any non bigoted people can avoid the business.

I might suggest.
" I am a bigoted asshole, and believe love one another only referred to opposite sex couples, so my baked goods are not to be eaten by gays."

That would help gays and others like myself to avoid their business.
2014-07-08 10:41:31 AM  
1 votes:

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community. Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


www.agileproductdesign.com

"WHY WON'T YOU TOLERATE MY INTOLERANCE?!"

Moron.
2014-07-08 10:40:29 AM  
1 votes:

2.bp.blogspot.com

2014-07-08 10:38:37 AM  
1 votes:

Egoy3k: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.

Why won't the gays tolerate my intolerance! Wahhhhh!   Seriously though, you are a moron if you actually believe what you just typed.


That's the other thing that bugs me about the black community. Where is their 'tolerance' for those who lynch them and burn crosses on their lawns and churches and set fire to their homes in the midde of the night?

Tolerance works both ways. Kinder! Kuchen! Kirche!
2014-07-08 10:36:34 AM  
1 votes:

theflatline: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.


The difference, of course, is that while you may not be able to get those specific foods neither can anyone else, and you can get other foods at the kosher deli without being harassed. These people cannot get a cake from a bakery that sells cakes. That's what discrimination is: someone is offering others services or products that they refuse to offer to a specific group.

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


No, people have to accept your intolerance. Not tolerate it, and not acquiesce to it.
2014-07-08 10:35:50 AM  
1 votes:

Super Chronic: HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?

I mean sure, they had hands up their asses, but it was strictly for puppeteering purposes.



Is that what the kids are calling it today?
2014-07-08 10:33:46 AM  
1 votes:

stpauler: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

Religious does not necessarily equal mind-numbingly stupid and bigoted.


It does mean that you've willingly surrendered your own logical sensibilities and moral code to a third party, so in fact yes it does.
2014-07-08 10:32:29 AM  
1 votes:

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


You can love someone, but still not support their lifestyle.

Personally, I don't care. Marry your cat if you want.
2014-07-08 10:32:12 AM  
1 votes:

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


Why won't the gays tolerate my intolerance! Wahhhhh!   Seriously though, you are a moron if you actually believe what you just typed.
2014-07-08 10:30:14 AM  
1 votes:

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


What are they going to do?

Do a deliberately poor job of decorating the cake? Then the person who ordered the cake will tell everyone they did a substandard job.

Bake poison into the cake? Then everyone will get sick and people will know the baker deliberately tried to hurt people with their work, which will probably send them to jail.
2014-07-08 10:26:07 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.


I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.
2014-07-08 10:24:39 AM  
1 votes:

DubtodaIll: Bakeries have really been the showdown spot between the two sides of this argument.


Yeah, smart bakeries stay out of politics and take peoples money.

Dumb bakeries fight with their customers and get sued into non-existence.
2014-07-08 10:23:30 AM  
1 votes:

BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.


I completely agree, just arguing with everyone is assholish.   If you don't want the job of baking stuff for the public, don't open your business to the public, it is as simple as that.   Go do private catering or something.   Stop arguing with customers.
2014-07-08 10:22:21 AM  
1 votes:

ReverendJasen: Dear bakery, stop being bigots.
Dear gay people, stop trying to buy your cakes from bigots.  Even if they cave and make it for you, would you really want to eat it?  Assholes probably put rat turds in it.  Tell the bigots to fark off and go find a sensible bakery.


The cake will be donated to the local church.
2014-07-08 10:22:10 AM  
1 votes:
Personally, if a company was hesitant to make something I requested, I believe I would go elsewhere. I doubt if they eventually agreed to do it, that it would be up to their normal standards. Not every professional acts professional.
2014-07-08 10:21:41 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.


Religious does not necessarily equal mind-numbingly stupid and bigoted.
2014-07-08 10:17:29 AM  
1 votes:

Deathfrogg: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?

When I was a little kid, I figured they were cousins or something. Hell, they slept in the same bed and everything just like I did when my cousins came over to visit. I slept in the same bed with my brother until I was 7.


i1.ytimg.com


                     "LOL, WUT?"
2014-07-08 10:11:41 AM  
1 votes:
If the gays were licensed to carry a pistol this wouldnt be an issue, because the bakery wouldnt even have to let them onto their property.

Equal protection for some........
2014-07-08 10:10:43 AM  
1 votes:
my grandfather died falling off a guard tower at a religious bakery in the war.
2014-07-08 10:10:21 AM  
1 votes:
I think this may have been a clever ruse to highlight discrimination against LGBT people in their area...  I doubt they needed that cake at all.
2014-07-08 10:09:59 AM  
1 votes:

jso2897: cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin

Yeah. That would be a smart thing for you to do.


Attributing anything "smart" to him is an insult to the word "smart".
2014-07-08 10:09:57 AM  
1 votes:
fta We thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs. It certainly was in contradiction of what the Bible teaches

God hates fondant
2014-07-08 10:08:40 AM  
1 votes:
Don't worry. They'll get crucified.
2014-07-08 10:08:12 AM  
1 votes:
"We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?
2014-07-08 10:07:15 AM  
1 votes:

jso2897: Do you really want to eat at a lunch counter staffed by people who hate you?


Fark no.

Do you really want to ride on a bus driven by people who hate you?
Do you really want to vote at a polling place manned by people who hate you?


Wouldn't give a shiat, for either of those.  They can't take a dump in my lunch.
2014-07-08 10:07:04 AM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?


Good point.  I know everyone thinks Bert and Ernie are gay, but I'm sure that wasn't the intent of their characters on Sesame Street - or maybe I'm just naive.

But I think a private business should be able to refuse certain jobs for whatever reason they can think of.  If they don't like big dicks, they shouldn't be required to make a cake in the shape of a big dick.  If they don't support gay marriage, let them refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple.

There are probably trademarks at stake here anyway.
2014-07-08 10:05:21 AM  
1 votes:

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?


no. I did too because Earnie seemed like the annoying little brother.  Since I was the annoying little sister in my family, I would know.
2014-07-08 10:03:59 AM  
1 votes:
Can I go to Big Gay Al's Cake Emporium and order a 'I support traditional marriage' cake?

Patrick Stewart will be in trouble...

static03.mediaite.com
2014-07-08 10:03:22 AM  
1 votes:
While people have a right to believe gay marriage is good, other people also have a right to belief that it is not.  We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in.  Go down the street and get the cake from someone who either supports gay marriage or doesn't give a f*** (like most people) and wants to make money selling cakes.

I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.
2014-07-08 10:00:52 AM  
1 votes:
Isn't a good rule of thumb to never let someone who hates you prepare your food?

/Ernie and Bert were not gay.
//Neither were Felix and Oscar who they were styled after.
\Not sure about the latter couple.
2014-07-08 09:56:43 AM  
1 votes:
i.imgur.com
2014-07-08 09:51:23 AM  
1 votes:
See, the cake *IS* a lie.
 
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