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(Mirror.co.uk)   Religious bakery tells customer it won't bake a Bert and Ernie cake because something.. something about gay marriage   (mirror.co.uk) divider line 650
    More: Asinine, faiths, Bible Teach, Sesame Street character, Belfast Telegraph, Icing on the Cake, executive directors  
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8990 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2014 at 9:48 AM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



650 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-07-08 11:39:31 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Your rights end where your "Open for business" sign begins.


wut?
 
2014-07-08 11:40:14 AM  

Gaseous Anomaly: I wonder where all of the Catholic bakers are that refuse to make cakes for second weddings.


Why would a baker even know that if it's someone's second wedding?
 
2014-07-08 11:40:15 AM  

GoldSpider: ReverendJasen: They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

You aren't missing anything.  This is a point that many in this thread are simply refusing to acknowledge because it castrates most of their argument.


Sure, if that was actually their reasoning.

BUT it wasn't. Their reasoning was they won't bake a cake for a gay couple. If the Bert/Ernie picture had nothing to do with it and the cake instead said "Bill and Bob Forever" do you think the company would've baked it? Of course not.
 
2014-07-08 11:40:21 AM  
Greenstein's still refuses to bake a pork and oyster cake for me.
 
2014-07-08 11:40:26 AM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: This. In that it's clear that freedom of speech isn't being infringed at all.

I don't think the government here in the U.S. can compel you to endorse a particular viewpoint that you disagree with, but I could be mistaken.


I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with," and I know I'm not mistaken.
 
2014-07-08 11:40:26 AM  

Elliot8654: Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!


Pat & Pat

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-07-08 11:41:12 AM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: This. In that it's clear that freedom of speech isn't being infringed at all.

I don't think the government here in the U.S. can compel you to endorse a particular viewpoint that you disagree with, but I could be mistaken.


If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?
 
2014-07-08 11:41:29 AM  

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?


But they clearly do wish to provide the service and make money, or they wouldn't run a bakery.
 
2014-07-08 11:41:35 AM  

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


Do you really want to be in business serving people that you hate?
 
2014-07-08 11:42:06 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


In the Saint Reagan edition.
 
2014-07-08 11:42:17 AM  

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?


Also this is weird because my name is Alex and I once dated a Samantha (Sam for short, of course)
 
2014-07-08 11:42:40 AM  

Prince George: I think Sesame Street has made it clear you're a sick farker if you feel the need to assign any sexual orientation to a children's puppet.


Nonsense. Many muppets have clear and obvious sexual orientations. The central relationship in the muppetverse (Kermit and Piggy) is clearly and obviously heterosexual. Oscar the Grouch has a girlfriend , Grundgetta.  Even the ever-present chickenfarker, Gonzo,  is only interested in female chickens. And while they're not muppets, Sesame Street characters Maria and Luis got married when the actress Sonia Manzano got pregnant in the late eighties. Hell, Pepe the Prawn is unabashedly, and hilariously heterosexual

They own it they made it clear they want nothing to do with the debate either way so no I wouldn't make your cake.

The only reason CTW refused to take a clear stand is because it's a controversial issue, and too many small minded bigots would stop watching the show and start writing angry letters if they came out and admitted that E&B are gay.

 How about a Luke and Han cake?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-07-08 11:42:54 AM  

Chongo79: "Why, hello there Mr. Atheist baker. Could I have a cake for my son's first communion?"


Why yes you can, because me making a cake for you in no way effects what I personally believe.
 
2014-07-08 11:42:56 AM  

Magorn: how hard would it have been for the bakery to simply mumble something about copyright laws and refuse to make the cake on those grounds instead? Dumbasses


Incredibly difficult. You see, that doesn't allow them to wave their religious schlong in everybody's faces and cram their beliefs down the throats of their customers.
 
2014-07-08 11:43:12 AM  
Legit question here...

In the US, if a bakery refuses to make a wedding cake for gay marriage, yet will still serve gay customers, is that considered illegal? I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers, but if they just refuse to make a certain kind of cake, is that illegal?
 
2014-07-08 11:43:43 AM  

MBooda: Greenstein's still refuses to bake a pork and oyster cake for me.


Funny that you mention that. In this article about the bakery in this story, there's a picture of their storefront... and their signs advertising bacon sandwiches.
 
2014-07-08 11:44:32 AM  
Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?

Do you really want to be in business serving people that you hate?


No, they don't. That's why they won't make it. C'mon, man!
 
2014-07-08 11:44:43 AM  

Elliot8654: So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?


Probably so.  Same as the difference between requesting "I love Jesus" vs "I love Satan."  I sure they'd refuse the second.  And it wouldn't be on the news or in a courtroom.
 
2014-07-08 11:45:15 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Their reasoning was they won't bake a cake for a gay couple.


You're making that up.

scottydoesntknow: If the Bert/Ernie picture had nothing to do with it and the cake instead said "Bill and Bob Forever" do you think the company would've baked it? Of course not.


Probably not, but that's not the point either.  Keep trying though.

Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"


Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.
 
2014-07-08 11:45:48 AM  

machoprogrammer: I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers


Depends on the place. Gayness isn't legally protected nationwide like blackness is.
 
2014-07-08 11:45:52 AM  

ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Probably so.  Same as the difference between requesting "I love Jesus" vs "I love Satan."  I sure they'd refuse the second.  And it wouldn't be on the news or in a courtroom.


... And if the request was for a cake saying "I love Allah" and they refused?
 
2014-07-08 11:45:53 AM  

machoprogrammer: Legit question here...

In the US, if a bakery refuses to make a wedding cake for gay marriage, yet will still serve gay customers, is that considered illegal? I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers, but if they just refuse to make a certain kind of cake, is that illegal?


If they refused to make wedding cakes for all couples, no. They are not discriminating against a specific group of people.

If they only refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples simply because they're a gay couple, then yes that's discrimination.
 
2014-07-08 11:46:07 AM  

GoldSpider: ReverendJasen: They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

You aren't missing anything.  This is a point that many in this thread are simply refusing to acknowledge because it castrates most of their argument.


Please explain what their religion is against then. Sesame Street characters who are not married (gay or otherwise)? Or customers who are gay?

These are the only two relevant factors in this case.
 
2014-07-08 11:47:03 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: HoustonNick: I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.

Your rights end where your "Open for business" sign begins. Just suck it up and make the cake, Nancy. You're only making yourself look bad otherwise.


But what about the  the birthday cake for the little boy named adolf h ?  Who here wants to support that daddy a-holes rights?
 
2014-07-08 11:47:34 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: HoustonNick: We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in



GO


fark



YOURSELF


If they refused to serve them all, you might have a point.
 
2014-07-08 11:47:38 AM  

Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?


Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.
 
2014-07-08 11:47:50 AM  
They should close their bakery and start a "church" with themselves as paid clergy -- that sells cakes as a permanent fundraising venture.

/ would be much easier to defend whatever religious views you want
// bonus: no taxes!
 
2014-07-08 11:48:10 AM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"

Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.


Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense. Or if I thought of the cake as the company owner's first born son. Or if I thought of the cake as the pair of pants you must be wearing on your head to attempt such a strained analogy.
 
2014-07-08 11:49:31 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


ct.politicomments.com
 
2014-07-08 11:50:35 AM  

Farking Canuck: These are the only two relevant factors in this case.


There's also the matter of the text saying "support gay marriage" that was requested by the customer, and spelled out quite clearly in the article, should you care to read it.
 
2014-07-08 11:50:40 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The only reason CTW refused to take a clear stand is because it's a controversial issue, and too many small minded bigots would stop watching the show and start writing angry letters if they came out and admitted that E&B are gay.


No they took a stand because they are puppets aimed at children not a political show.  They can show 2 people of the same sex living together without discussing their sex life,  Children will relate to it as it fits what they see around them.
 
2014-07-08 11:53:02 AM  
cdn-www.i-am-bored.com

peacemoonbeam.typepad.com

static3.beanscdn.co.uk
 
2014-07-08 11:53:24 AM  
Welcome to a month of TF to a couple posters here.
 
2014-07-08 11:53:36 AM  

GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.


So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?
 
2014-07-08 11:53:47 AM  

GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.


Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a Jewish custom t-shirt maker who printed shirts with swastikas on them for a group of white supremacists. I don't think he endorsed the systematic genocide of his own people. And if somebody really thought I endorsed white supremacy because I treated a white supremacist the same as I would treat any other customers, that's their fault, not mine.
 
2014-07-08 11:55:15 AM  

Deathfrogg: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?

When I was a little kid, I figured they were cousins or something. Hell, they slept in the same bed and everything just like I did when my cousins came over to visit. I slept in the same bed with my brother until I was 7.


Are you a gay puppet or Joe Flacco?
 
2014-07-08 11:56:00 AM  

Serious Black: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a Jewish custom t-shirt maker who printed shirts with swastikas on them for a group of white supremacists. I don't think he endorsed the systematic genocide of his own people. And if somebody really thought I endorsed white supremacy because I treated a white supremacist the same as I would treat any other customers, that's their fault, not mine.


GoldSpider's probably also concerned about the white restaurant owners who were forced to serve black patrons and were worried that their KKK friends might conclude that they were okay with desegregation.
 
2014-07-08 11:56:44 AM  

Elliot8654: Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?

But they clearly do wish to provide the service and make money, or they wouldn't run a bakery.


Simply running a business is not concent to a requirement that they must make every product related to the nature of their business.
 
2014-07-08 11:57:56 AM  

Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?


Sure. No one is stopping you from blaming then. You're free to hold that opinion all you want
 
2014-07-08 11:59:18 AM  

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?

Sure. No one is stopping you from blaming then. You're free to hold that opinion all you want


You wouldn't even be the first. There's whole groups of lobbyist that hold that opinion.
 
2014-07-08 11:59:22 AM  
 
2014-07-08 12:00:16 PM  

Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.


You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?
 
2014-07-08 12:00:33 PM  

GoldSpider: xtech: all these butthurt 'waaah waah i want someone to bake me a cake who doesnt like me' apologists comparing this to the slavery movement.. ROFL.. wow....

And people who don't know what the word "discrimination" means.


move that goalpost more!

good on the crappy bakery for telling the activist to bugger off. what they SHOULD have done is made the cake, but done so in such a way that its not legible.
 
2014-07-08 12:03:11 PM  

Teresaol31: Funny, there was a time when I thought that the fundamentalist "Bible Baptists" that went on and on about Bert and Ernie being a gay couple were just strange. (The same group was anti-vax way before anyone saw Jenny McCarthy naked because they thought that letting the health department give your kid a shot for any reason was a way for the kid to get secretly RFID chipped as the mark of the beast, I shiat you not!)

Ask a kid watching Sesame Street who Bert and Ernie are, they will tell you that they are friends who live in the same house.  They are pbviously based on the play/movie/television show the Odd Couple and represent the Felix and Oscar of Sesame Street, showing that two people with clearly different hobbies and priorities can learn to get along and live together.  They are not the Steve and Steve gay married couple (not that there is a thing wrong with that concept, but honestly, if you watch Sesame Street, you will notice that they simply do not address adult interpersonal relationships at all.  They, unlike the perverts that come up with this nonsense, don't think it's appropriate to discuss those things with preschoolers.  Whether it's Bert and Ernie being gay, or the notion that Gordon might take up with a white Mrs., they simply do not discuss such matters on the show!)

As for Bert and Ernie being gay, they don't even sleep in the same bed, so it's all in your heads morons.  Get your filthy minds out of the gutter you sex obsessed theist extremists!  Geez.  Not every damn thing in life has to be about sex, especially a show designed to teach kids preschool skills like getting along, telling the truth, and recognizing colors, shapes, letters, numbers.  Oh, yeah, I guess that would be offended to people that still think that people should isolate themselves from anyone different and only need enough education to read their Bibles!



they were named after the cop and the cab driver on "it's a wonderful life"  apparently jim henson was a big fan of the movie.
 
2014-07-08 12:03:33 PM  

genner: Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?

Sure. No one is stopping you from blaming then. You're free to hold that opinion all you want

You wouldn't even be the first. There's whole groups of lobbyist that hold that opinion.


Another group of lobbyists got a law passed that specifically exempts gun manufacturers from any such blame
 
2014-07-08 12:04:11 PM  
What's all this about Valerie Bertnernie eating a gay cake?
 
2014-07-08 12:04:28 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.

You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?


Hey, GoldSpider...
d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net
That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?
 
2014-07-08 12:04:57 PM  
Uh, why not just get a Bert & Ernie cake....

Then go home and write "support gay marriage" on it with icing?

Well, with icing, or you could...you know...be creative...wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

/For the record: Bert AND Ernie are not gay, just Bert.
//If you want to support NAMBLA, then you get a Bert and Ernie cake.
 
2014-07-08 12:05:14 PM  

bestsportnascar: I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?


Couple of points:

1. Yes, I would be just as ok with a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views as I would be with a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build an Islamic Rainbow Alliance Queermosque because of their views -- no more and no less.  Whether or not I agree with the views isn't the criterion for me, and I submit it shouldn't be the criterion for anyone.

2. I'm not sure if you're giving this terrible analogy because you don't see the difference, but there is a difference between boycotting a business (which is more or less the scenario you gave), and a business refusing to serve a (would-be) paying customer.

3. You do understand that boycotts are perfectly legal, right?  If my gay cousin wants to boycott Chik-Fil-A, she has the right to do so.  If my fundamentalist neighbor wants to boycott Ben and Jerry's, he's free to do so as well.

4. In the USA at least, there is the concept of  public accommodations.  A bakery is a public accommodation.  IANAL but I don't think the laws regarding public accommodation would apply to a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A.
 
2014-07-08 12:05:25 PM  

stuffy: Lesbian cake? (NSFW)


It's a trick, lesbians eat pie.
 
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