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(Mirror.co.uk)   Religious bakery tells customer it won't bake a Bert and Ernie cake because something.. something about gay marriage   (mirror.co.uk) divider line 650
    More: Asinine, faiths, Bible Teach, Sesame Street character, Belfast Telegraph, Icing on the Cake, executive directors  
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8999 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2014 at 9:48 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



650 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-07-08 09:34:35 AM  
Who makes a "support gay marriage" cake anyway?

So let's get this gay marriage thing going!  Shall we call our elected representatives?  No, how about we go to the media to present our side?  NO!  Wait, I got it!  We'll get a cake made!  BRILLIANT!
 
2014-07-08 09:44:22 AM  
"the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.
 
2014-07-08 09:49:23 AM  
"I feel if we don't take a stand with this case, then how can we stand up against it further down the line?"

MacArthur is part right, they shouldn't have to take it, because it's their choice to bake it, so they'll never have that take that stand again, oh no.
 
2014-07-08 09:51:23 AM  
See, the cake *IS* a lie.
 
2014-07-08 09:51:40 AM  

nekom: Who makes a "support gay marriage" cake anyway?

So let's get this gay marriage thing going!  Shall we call our elected representatives?  No, how about we go to the media to present our side?  NO!  Wait, I got it!  We'll get a cake made!  BRILLIANT!


The cake was (now ironically) for Anti-Homophobia day in a part of the UK that doesn't allow gay marriage. I'd also be willing to bet a $3 bill that this wasn't the single pronged approach to marriage equality as your post suggests.
 
2014-07-08 09:52:11 AM  
Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?
 
2014-07-08 09:53:13 AM  
Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.
 
2014-07-08 09:53:42 AM  
Bakeries have really been the showdown spot between the two sides of this argument.
 
2014-07-08 09:54:04 AM  
Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?
 
2014-07-08 09:54:44 AM  
The article makes it sound like that one bakery is the only place in the UK where you can't get gay married.
 
2014-07-08 09:55:45 AM  
Can I get a dead jesus nailed to another dead jesus on my cake?
 
2014-07-08 09:55:59 AM  

BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.


Neither do you.
Yet, here you are.
 
2014-07-08 09:56:43 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-07-08 09:56:58 AM  
Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?
 
2014-07-08 09:57:02 AM  

Jaden Smith First of His Name: The article makes it sound like that one bakery is the only place in the UK where you can't get gay married.


They have weird laws over there.  Hell before the revolution Americans had to go to a pie shop in Baltimore to get married. The lines were so long you couldn't even get a pie most days.
 
2014-07-08 09:58:11 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


He was on the corner of 4th and Elm.  The paparazzi were on break so it didn't get a lot of coverage.
 
2014-07-08 09:58:51 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?


I mean sure, they had hands up their asses, but it was strictly for puppeteering purposes.
 
2014-07-08 09:59:12 AM  
I'm sure PBS has got to be thrilled that their characters have been pulled into this.
 
2014-07-08 09:59:14 AM  
Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?
 
2014-07-08 09:59:16 AM  

BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.


^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?
 
2014-07-08 09:59:49 AM  
Dear bakery, stop being bigots.
Dear gay people, stop trying to buy your cakes from bigots.  Even if they cave and make it for you, would you really want to eat it?  Assholes probably put rat turds in it.  Tell the bigots to fark off and go find a sensible bakery.
 
2014-07-08 10:00:18 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?


Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.
 
2014-07-08 10:00:29 AM  
Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.
 
2014-07-08 10:00:47 AM  

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


Do you really want to eat at a lunch counter staffed by people who hate you?
Do you really want to ride on a bus driven by people who hate you?
Do you really want to vote at a polling place manned by people who hate you?
Why, no, of course not - that would be "dickish". You should just stifle your silly desire for equal treatment, and go home.
You are bothering the rest of us while we are trying to watch "American Idol".
 
2014-07-08 10:00:52 AM  
Isn't a good rule of thumb to never let someone who hates you prepare your food?

/Ernie and Bert were not gay.
//Neither were Felix and Oscar who they were styled after.
\Not sure about the latter couple.
 
2014-07-08 10:01:12 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


Last Tuesday.  It's really the LEAST psychotic thing my gardener has said.
 
2014-07-08 10:01:18 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


Mark 12:31: The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. Unless he's icky gay, then hate him' - Catholic League National Version
 
2014-07-08 10:01:29 AM  

ReverendJasen: Dear bakery, stop being bigots.
Dear gay people, stop trying to buy your cakes from bigots.  Even if they cave and make it for you, would you really want to eat it?  Assholes probably put rat turds in it.  Tell the bigots to fark off and go find a sensible bakery.


Those are chocolate sprinkles.
 
2014-07-08 10:01:49 AM  
stpauler:
The cake was (now ironically) for Anti-Homophobia day in a part of the UK that doesn't allow gay marriage. I'd also be willing to bet a $3 bill that this wasn't the single pronged approach to marriage equality as your post suggests.

Well, then I suppose that might make sense.
 
2014-07-08 10:02:16 AM  
Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin
 
2014-07-08 10:02:54 AM  
Funny, there was a time when I thought that the fundamentalist "Bible Baptists" that went on and on about Bert and Ernie being a gay couple were just strange. (The same group was anti-vax way before anyone saw Jenny McCarthy naked because they thought that letting the health department give your kid a shot for any reason was a way for the kid to get secretly RFID chipped as the mark of the beast, I shiat you not!)

Ask a kid watching Sesame Street who Bert and Ernie are, they will tell you that they are friends who live in the same house.  They are pbviously based on the play/movie/television show the Odd Couple and represent the Felix and Oscar of Sesame Street, showing that two people with clearly different hobbies and priorities can learn to get along and live together.  They are not the Steve and Steve gay married couple (not that there is a thing wrong with that concept, but honestly, if you watch Sesame Street, you will notice that they simply do not address adult interpersonal relationships at all.  They, unlike the perverts that come up with this nonsense, don't think it's appropriate to discuss those things with preschoolers.  Whether it's Bert and Ernie being gay, or the notion that Gordon might take up with a white Mrs., they simply do not discuss such matters on the show!)

As for Bert and Ernie being gay, they don't even sleep in the same bed, so it's all in your heads morons.  Get your filthy minds out of the gutter you sex obsessed theist extremists!  Geez.  Not every damn thing in life has to be about sex, especially a show designed to teach kids preschool skills like getting along, telling the truth, and recognizing colors, shapes, letters, numbers.  Oh, yeah, I guess that would be offended to people that still think that people should isolate themselves from anyone different and only need enough education to read their Bibles!
 
2014-07-08 10:03:22 AM  
While people have a right to believe gay marriage is good, other people also have a right to belief that it is not.  We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in.  Go down the street and get the cake from someone who either supports gay marriage or doesn't give a f*** (like most people) and wants to make money selling cakes.

I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.
 
2014-07-08 10:03:59 AM  
Can I go to Big Gay Al's Cake Emporium and order a 'I support traditional marriage' cake?

Patrick Stewart will be in trouble...

static03.mediaite.com
 
2014-07-08 10:04:13 AM  
Damn it.  I wish I could edit post post.  Sure I could proof read before I post, but that would make more sense.

/that=to (obviously)
 
2014-07-08 10:04:15 AM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?


When I was a little kid, I figured they were cousins or something. Hell, they slept in the same bed and everything just like I did when my cousins came over to visit. I slept in the same bed with my brother until I was 7.
 
2014-07-08 10:05:14 AM  

jso2897: Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?

Do you really want to eat at a lunch counter staffed by people who hate you?
Do you really want to ride on a bus driven by people who hate you?
Do you really want to vote at a polling place manned by people who hate you?
Why, no, of course not - that would be "dickish". You should just stifle your silly desire for equal treatment, and go home.
You are bothering the rest of us while we are trying to watch "American Idol".


I understand your point, they do indeed deserve fair and equal treatment.  But it isn't about being dickish, it's about self-preservation.
 
2014-07-08 10:05:21 AM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?


no. I did too because Earnie seemed like the annoying little brother.  Since I was the annoying little sister in my family, I would know.
 
2014-07-08 10:05:55 AM  
Religious bakery tells customer it won't bake a Bert and Ernie cake because something.. something about gay marriage

Religious bakery refused to create Bert and Ernie cake in support of gay marriage

Subby, how did you manage to end up with a longer headline with less information?  That's some kind of talent.
 
2014-07-08 10:06:04 AM  

cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin


It's not their fault Burger king is lobbying hard to get dolphin back on the menu.
Also this is happening in the UK.
 
2014-07-08 10:07:02 AM  

maxx2112: Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.


Now I really want to see a child named Judas Iscariot. (And it works for a boy or a girl.) Or perhaps Bennedict Arnold.

/because I apparently hate children today
//at least we're not naming a boy Sue
///let's name a boy Sue
 
2014-07-08 10:07:04 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?


Good point.  I know everyone thinks Bert and Ernie are gay, but I'm sure that wasn't the intent of their characters on Sesame Street - or maybe I'm just naive.

But I think a private business should be able to refuse certain jobs for whatever reason they can think of.  If they don't like big dicks, they shouldn't be required to make a cake in the shape of a big dick.  If they don't support gay marriage, let them refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple.

There are probably trademarks at stake here anyway.
 
2014-07-08 10:07:15 AM  

jso2897: Do you really want to eat at a lunch counter staffed by people who hate you?


Fark no.

Do you really want to ride on a bus driven by people who hate you?
Do you really want to vote at a polling place manned by people who hate you?


Wouldn't give a shiat, for either of those.  They can't take a dump in my lunch.
 
2014-07-08 10:07:18 AM  

cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin


Yeah. That would be a smart thing for you to do.
 
2014-07-08 10:08:12 AM  
"We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?
 
2014-07-08 10:08:40 AM  
Don't worry. They'll get crucified.
 
2014-07-08 10:09:57 AM  
fta We thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs. It certainly was in contradiction of what the Bible teaches

God hates fondant
 
2014-07-08 10:09:59 AM  

jso2897: cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin

Yeah. That would be a smart thing for you to do.


Attributing anything "smart" to him is an insult to the word "smart".
 
2014-07-08 10:10:03 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


Some immigration holding cell down near the Texas/Mexico border?
 
2014-07-08 10:10:21 AM  
I think this may have been a clever ruse to highlight discrimination against LGBT people in their area...  I doubt they needed that cake at all.
 
2014-07-08 10:10:43 AM  
my grandfather died falling off a guard tower at a religious bakery in the war.
 
2014-07-08 10:10:54 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


You don't know the story of Jesus asking everyone their sexual preference before he handed out the loaves and fishes?  The gays didn't get a loaf cause making baked goods for gay people promotes their sexual preferences, don't ya know.
 
2014-07-08 10:11:01 AM  

Notabunny: fta We thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs. It certainly was in contradiction of what the Bible teaches

God hates fondant


No, god hates sesame street apparently.
 
2014-07-08 10:11:16 AM  

ReverendJasen: Dear gay people, stop trying to buy your cakes from bigots.


The problem is we don't know who the bigots are until we try to order a cake.
 
2014-07-08 10:11:20 AM  
Ontario recently made it legal for doctors to refuse to prescribe or dispense birth control pills for religious reasons.

I'm gonna invent my own crazy religion that says that blood pressure medication is a sin, and refuse to prescribe it to fat pretentious christians.
 
2014-07-08 10:11:33 AM  

Gaylord Fister: "We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?


Or Irish for that matter
historymyths.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-07-08 10:11:41 AM  
If the gays were licensed to carry a pistol this wouldnt be an issue, because the bakery wouldnt even have to let them onto their property.

Equal protection for some........
 
2014-07-08 10:13:41 AM  

HoustonNick: While people have a right to believe gay marriage is good, other people also have a right to belief that it is not.  We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in.  Go down the street and get the cake from someone who either supports gay marriage or doesn't give a f*** (like most people) and wants to make money selling cakes.

I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.


I don't support black people sleeping on the same mattresses as white folks. Stop forcing my motel business to support that.
I don't support Latinos eating sandwiches. Stop forcing my lunch counter to support that.
I don't support infidels riding in my holy taxicab, smelling like pork. Stop forcing me to support that.
Yeah, that'll work.
 
2014-07-08 10:14:38 AM  
A packed fudge cake with Hershey Highway frosting would be in order.
 
2014-07-08 10:15:03 AM  

Katolu: jso2897: cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin

Yeah. That would be a smart thing for you to do.

Attributing anything "smart" to him is an insult to the word "smart".


What I meant was that, out of all the things he is likely to do, that would probably be one of the smarter ones.
 
2014-07-08 10:15:43 AM  

menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.


Sadly, I think you might be serious.  Hey?  Remember the old mantra, "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Over It'?   Well, most thinking people have.  The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen?  I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.
 
2014-07-08 10:16:03 AM  

maxx2112: Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.


www.texasobserver.org

Problem solved.
 
2014-07-08 10:16:06 AM  
You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.
 
2014-07-08 10:16:17 AM  

Katolu: jso2897: cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin

Yeah. That would be a smart thing for you to do.

Attributing anything "smart" to him is an insult to the word "smart".


Missed it by that much 99
 
2014-07-08 10:17:29 AM  

Deathfrogg: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?

When I was a little kid, I figured they were cousins or something. Hell, they slept in the same bed and everything just like I did when my cousins came over to visit. I slept in the same bed with my brother until I was 7.


i1.ytimg.com


                     "LOL, WUT?"
 
2014-07-08 10:18:13 AM  

GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.


Cant wait to see whats written on that receipt.


/only to find out later it was a hoax
 
2014-07-08 10:18:49 AM  

Giltric: If the gays were licensed to carry a pistol this wouldnt be an issue, because the bakery wouldnt even have to let them onto their property.

Equal protection for some........


If the bakery was near a Los Angeles city school pot smokers and registered sexual deviates couldn't buy there either
 
2014-07-08 10:19:50 AM  

nekom: Who makes a "support gay marriage" cake anyway?

So let's get this gay marriage thing going!  Shall we call our elected representatives?  No, how about we go to the media to present our side?  NO!  Wait, I got it!  We'll get a cake made!  BRILLIANT!


If you're getting gay married, doesn't that pretty much point to the fact that you are gay-rights?
 
2014-07-08 10:20:30 AM  

vudukungfu: Can I get a dead jesus nailed to another dead jesus on my cake?


What like two gay jesus nailing each other on top of the cake? I'm confused.
 
2014-07-08 10:20:31 AM  

big pig peaches: ReverendJasen: Dear bakery, stop being bigots.
Dear gay people, stop trying to buy your cakes from bigots.  Even if they cave and make it for you, would you really want to eat it?  Assholes probably put rat turds in it.  Tell the bigots to fark off and go find a sensible bakery.

Those are chocolate sprinkles jimmies.


Fixed that for New England.
 
2014-07-08 10:20:43 AM  
Why should these people be burdened with others' beliefs? If they don't want to serve gay people, then those people should patronize some other business that will. The former bakery will lose money, and if enough people avoid them, they'll go out of business. Why pick a fight??
 
2014-07-08 10:20:53 AM  
Also, the bible mentions homosexuality only twice, but shellfish eight times. I bet you these hypocritical zombie worshippers wouldn't mind making a cake with a shrimp on it.
 
2014-07-08 10:21:41 AM  

GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.


Religious does not necessarily equal mind-numbingly stupid and bigoted.
 
2014-07-08 10:22:03 AM  
How many cakes a day do the make for unwed moms and couples living together I wonder. They might as well be the bakery for hell!
 
2014-07-08 10:22:10 AM  
Personally, if a company was hesitant to make something I requested, I believe I would go elsewhere. I doubt if they eventually agreed to do it, that it would be up to their normal standards. Not every professional acts professional.
 
2014-07-08 10:22:12 AM  
Bert & Ernie are just two eligible bachelors living together since the late '60s. So what if they never dated a woman or probably even spoke to any. Maybe they're just shy fellas.
 
2014-07-08 10:22:21 AM  

ReverendJasen: Dear bakery, stop being bigots.
Dear gay people, stop trying to buy your cakes from bigots.  Even if they cave and make it for you, would you really want to eat it?  Assholes probably put rat turds in it.  Tell the bigots to fark off and go find a sensible bakery.


The cake will be donated to the local church.
 
2014-07-08 10:22:51 AM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?


I always assumed Bert was Ernie's father.
 
2014-07-08 10:22:55 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Deathfrogg: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?

When I was a little kid, I figured they were cousins or something. Hell, they slept in the same bed and everything just like I did when my cousins came over to visit. I slept in the same bed with my brother until I was 7.

[i1.ytimg.com image 480x358]


                     "LOL, WUT?"


They slept in the same bed for the first 3-4 years of Sesame Street. I watched that show from day one.
 
2014-07-08 10:23:14 AM  
The only right thing to do is legally force them into making the cake, then filing a credit card chargeback because of the spit content of the cake.

/you're not getting a cake without spit or worse in it, via suing someone.
 
2014-07-08 10:23:18 AM  
Some people read waaaay too much into things.

General rule of thumb: if you're constantly worried about the gay sexxin', you're either in prison, or a prisoner of your own thwarted desires...
 
2014-07-08 10:23:30 AM  

BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.


I completely agree, just arguing with everyone is assholish.   If you don't want the job of baking stuff for the public, don't open your business to the public, it is as simple as that.   Go do private catering or something.   Stop arguing with customers.
 
2014-07-08 10:24:36 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?


Since it's the UK - Tinky Winky, the gay Teletubby, would have been more appropriate.
 
2014-07-08 10:24:39 AM  

DubtodaIll: Bakeries have really been the showdown spot between the two sides of this argument.


Yeah, smart bakeries stay out of politics and take peoples money.

Dumb bakeries fight with their customers and get sued into non-existence.
 
2014-07-08 10:24:55 AM  

bdub77: I'm confused.


We all are until we open up.
 
2014-07-08 10:24:55 AM  
We used to watch tons of Sesame Street and never once even after the fact, did I ever think that Bert and Ernie are supposed to be gay (NTTAWWT).  Most likely, anyone who has any sort of problem with Sesame Street is the one with the agenda.  My brother and I thought that Bert and Ernie fishing was one of the funniest things ever.  Still pretty funny.

/1 2 3 4 5, 6 7 8 9 10, 11 12
 
2014-07-08 10:25:38 AM  
The poutrage continues.
 
2014-07-08 10:25:40 AM  
I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?
 
2014-07-08 10:26:07 AM  

GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.


I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.
 
2014-07-08 10:26:21 AM  

nekom: Who makes a "support gay marriage" cake anyway?


People that make a living by filing lawsuits?
 
2014-07-08 10:26:31 AM  

stpauler: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

Religious does not necessarily equal mind-numbingly stupid and bigoted.


No but if your objective is to manufacture outrage and/or a lawsuit, it's a convenient target.
 
2014-07-08 10:26:56 AM  
The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.
 
2014-07-08 10:27:03 AM  

bestsportnascar: I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?


Well, if you don't bid for a job, you don't get picked to do it.
 
2014-07-08 10:27:46 AM  

menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.


The differences being;

This isn't in the US
They were refused service for being gay, they were told they couldn't have a specific saying on the cake.

I don't like bigots much but the good news is most of the anti gay bigots are from an older generation, once they kick the bucket there won;t be many of them around. I don't think that persuing legal actions against bakeries is going to solve anything.
 
2014-07-08 10:28:33 AM  

hubiestubert: Some people read waaaay too much into things.

General rule of thumb: if you're constantly worried about the gay sexxin', you're either in prison, or a prisoner of your own thwarted desires...


No, I'm worried that someone may be having more fun they me.  I'm against all sexing, drugs, and I consider smiling suspicious.
 
2014-07-08 10:29:03 AM  

genner: cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin

It's not their fault Burger king is lobbying hard to get dolphin back on the menu.
Also this is happening in the UK.


I wish some judge or magistrate would grow a pair and start throwing these stupid-sh*t lawsuits out of court and charging the plaintiffs $$$ for it so people who have a legitimate case could get a court date in under 10 years.
 
2014-07-08 10:29:18 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay Negro community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


Dialed it back to 1950 for you.

You're welcome.
 
2014-07-08 10:29:24 AM  
What is it about the baked goods industry that attracts so many attention whores?
 
2014-07-08 10:29:55 AM  

soporific: maxx2112: Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.

Now I really want to see a child named Judas Iscariot. (And it works for a boy or a girl.) Or perhaps Bennedict Arnold.

/because I apparently hate children today
//at least we're not naming a boy Sue
///let's name a boy Sue


A family friend had an informal contest and the winner would win the ostensible right to name her baby. My entry, little Darth Lebron Osama bin Nelson, didn't win and she went with my brother's suggestion, Garrett.
 
2014-07-08 10:30:03 AM  

theflatline: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.


which would make sense if the deli actually had those things on their menu.  If you go someplace and order something that isn't on the menu, don't be surprised if they don't serve it to you.
 
2014-07-08 10:30:07 AM  

Gaylord Fister: So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?


Yes, if freedom of association means anything.   And people who do so should be prepared to face the full responsibility for the loss of business and ill-will that doing so would generate.

As a people, we've forgotten how much power is truly in our hands, versus running to a big government to remake the world as we would like things to be.   Remember that odious bus policy that forced blacks to sit in the back?   Just how was that resolved, the police?   No- it was voluntary boycotts that brought that bus company to its knees.
 
2014-07-08 10:30:14 AM  

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


What are they going to do?

Do a deliberately poor job of decorating the cake? Then the person who ordered the cake will tell everyone they did a substandard job.

Bake poison into the cake? Then everyone will get sick and people will know the baker deliberately tried to hurt people with their work, which will probably send them to jail.
 
2014-07-08 10:30:27 AM  

James!: Jaden Smith First of His Name: The article makes it sound like that one bakery is the only place in the UK where you can't get gay married.

They have weird laws over there.  Hell before the revolution Americans had to go to a pie shop in Baltimore to get married. The lines were so long you couldn't even get a pie most days.


2muchponey.com

/miss this show.
 
2014-07-08 10:30:58 AM  

theflatline: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.


Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.
But a cake store bakes cakes and decorates them.

Bad analogy is bad. Try again.
 
2014-07-08 10:30:59 AM  

Gaylord Fister: Also, the bible mentions homosexuality only twice, but shellfish eight times. I bet you these hypocritical zombie worshippers wouldn't mind making a cake with a shrimp on it.


It mentions homosexuality  13 times and says shellfish is fine the last time it mentions it.
Not that it matters how often it mentions something
It only condemns sex with animals once.
 
2014-07-08 10:31:32 AM  

Carn: We used to watch tons of Sesame Street and never once even after the fact, did I ever think that Bert and Ernie are supposed to be gay (NTTAWWT).  Most likely, anyone who has any sort of problem with Sesame Street is the one with the agenda.  My brother and I thought that Bert and Ernie fishing was one of the funniest things ever.  Still pretty funny.

/1 2 3 4 5, 6 7 8 9 10, 11 12


Well, one did play with his rubber ducky a lot, or so he said and sang.  He was really repressed.
 
2014-07-08 10:31:54 AM  

fluffy2097: bestsportnascar: I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?

Well, if you don't bid for a job, you don't get picked to do it.


Do some custom cake companies put a price on the job? It could be argued that they didn't want to bid on the job of this cake.
 
2014-07-08 10:32:07 AM  
How have these bigots not realized they're on the wrong side of history by now? They're okay knowing future generations will either be ashamed or laughing at them?
 
2014-07-08 10:32:12 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


Why won't the gays tolerate my intolerance! Wahhhhh!   Seriously though, you are a moron if you actually believe what you just typed.
 
2014-07-08 10:32:17 AM  
Since gay people are such good decorators, shouldn't they do their own cake?
 
2014-07-08 10:32:29 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


You can love someone, but still not support their lifestyle.

Personally, I don't care. Marry your cat if you want.
 
2014-07-08 10:32:40 AM  
how hard would it have been for the bakery to simply mumble something about copyright laws and refuse to make the cake on those grounds instead? Dumbasses
 
2014-07-08 10:33:05 AM  

cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin


Have you ever walked up to the window with one to find out?

/Last time I took my dolphin for a walk we stopped by BK for fish sammiches. Yum.
 
2014-07-08 10:33:09 AM  

Teresaol31: Funny, there was a time when I thought that the fundamentalist "Bible Baptists" that went on and on about Bert and Ernie being a gay couple were just strange. (The same group was anti-vax way before anyone saw Jenny McCarthy naked because they thought that letting the health department give your kid a shot for any reason was a way for the kid to get secretly RFID chipped as the mark of the beast, I shiat you not!)

Ask a kid watching Sesame Street who Bert and Ernie are, they will tell you that they are friends who live in the same house.  They are pbviously based on the play/movie/television show the Odd Couple and represent the Felix and Oscar of Sesame Street, showing that two people with clearly different hobbies and priorities can learn to get along and live together.  They are not the Steve and Steve gay married couple (not that there is a thing wrong with that concept, but honestly, if you watch Sesame Street, you will notice that they simply do not address adult interpersonal relationships at all.  They, unlike the perverts that come up with this nonsense, don't think it's appropriate to discuss those things with preschoolers.  Whether it's Bert and Ernie being gay, or the notion that Gordon might take up with a white Mrs., they simply do not discuss such matters on the show!)

As for Bert and Ernie being gay, they don't even sleep in the same bed, so it's all in your heads morons.  Get your filthy minds out of the gutter you sex obsessed theist extremists!  Geez.  Not every damn thing in life has to be about sex, especially a show designed to teach kids preschool skills like getting along, telling the truth, and recognizing colors, shapes, letters, numbers.  Oh, yeah, I guess that would be offended to people that still think that people should isolate themselves from anyone different and only need enough education to read their Bibles!


Awesome analysis!

You seem to have a lot of free time on your hands, however.
 
2014-07-08 10:33:18 AM  
Children's Television Workshop should sue the AW activist for appropriating their intellectual property without permission to promote a political agenda.
 
2014-07-08 10:33:46 AM  

stpauler: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

Religious does not necessarily equal mind-numbingly stupid and bigoted.


It does mean that you've willingly surrendered your own logical sensibilities and moral code to a third party, so in fact yes it does.
 
2014-07-08 10:33:52 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?


Can you think of gayer muppets?
 
2014-07-08 10:35:14 AM  

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


Do you really want a world where random stores are off limits to you because the haters inside don't like blacks, jews, minorities, redheads, left handed people, muslims, fat chicks, LARPers, or people who can stomach Chicago style pizza?
 
2014-07-08 10:35:25 AM  

gfid: Good point. I know everyone thinks Bert and Ernie are gay, but I'm sure that wasn't the intent of their characters on Sesame Street - or maybe I'm just naive.


All college roommates everywhere are gay. No exceptions.
 
2014-07-08 10:35:48 AM  
Why are gays so intolerant of other peoples beliefs

www.folkingmetal.com
 
2014-07-08 10:35:49 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.

Sadly, I think you might be serious.  Hey?  Remember the old mantra, "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Over It'?   Well, most thinking people have.  The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen?  I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.


Thank you for saying this.  Don't often see this level of intelligence on FARK.
 
2014-07-08 10:35:50 AM  

Super Chronic: HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?

I mean sure, they had hands up their asses, but it was strictly for puppeteering purposes.



Is that what the kids are calling it today?
 
2014-07-08 10:36:34 AM  

theflatline: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.


The difference, of course, is that while you may not be able to get those specific foods neither can anyone else, and you can get other foods at the kosher deli without being harassed. These people cannot get a cake from a bakery that sells cakes. That's what discrimination is: someone is offering others services or products that they refuse to offer to a specific group.

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


No, people have to accept your intolerance. Not tolerate it, and not acquiesce to it.
 
2014-07-08 10:36:58 AM  
Just wanted to dispel the rumor, I saw them together at Scores

jaced.com
 
2014-07-08 10:37:03 AM  

genner: It mentions homosexuality 13 times


Chapters and verses, please?
 
2014-07-08 10:37:10 AM  

Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.


Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.
 
2014-07-08 10:37:21 AM  

BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.



^^   This for the win
 
gja
2014-07-08 10:38:25 AM  
"Whatta ya mean, 'No cake'?"
i3.ytimg.com

/the cake. it's a lie
 
2014-07-08 10:38:27 AM  

Selena Luna: That's what discrimination is: someone is offering others services or products that they refuse to offer to a specific group.


Nothing in the article suggests a particular group was refused service.
 
2014-07-08 10:38:37 AM  

Egoy3k: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The bottom line is ... You should never piss-off the people who make your food.  For every one bakery who doesn't want to serve you, there are probably at least 5 more in the vicinity who will be more than happy to.

That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.

Why won't the gays tolerate my intolerance! Wahhhhh!   Seriously though, you are a moron if you actually believe what you just typed.


That's the other thing that bugs me about the black community. Where is their 'tolerance' for those who lynch them and burn crosses on their lawns and churches and set fire to their homes in the midde of the night?

Tolerance works both ways. Kinder! Kuchen! Kirche!
 
2014-07-08 10:40:29 AM  

2.bp.blogspot.com

 
2014-07-08 10:40:30 AM  
Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.
 
2014-07-08 10:41:27 AM  
Why can't people just do what they farking want and let me read about cancer cures and shiat? Facebook figured out that negative news makes people miserable. I can farking attest to that.
 
2014-07-08 10:41:31 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community. Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


www.agileproductdesign.com

"WHY WON'T YOU TOLERATE MY INTOLERANCE?!"

Moron.
 
2014-07-08 10:41:55 AM  
I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.
 
2014-07-08 10:42:09 AM  
See, if a guy and a girl had walked in and asked for this cake, and said they were going to use it at church, getting kids to smear chocolate icing on it and stomp on it and THAT'LL SHOW THEM DANG QUEERS, I bet no one would have blinked.

Or, if upon refusal, one of them fell to the floor and started thrashing, then screamed "PRAISE JESUS I SEE THE LIGHT! I WILL FOLLOW YOU FOREVER once this guy makes my cake."

Or ask for one with David and Jonathan on it, and change the text to "a love more wonderful than the love of women".
 
2014-07-08 10:42:13 AM  
I have two early thirty-something guys living a couple houses down from me.  One works in a nutrition store and looks like a beefcake.  Does anyone think they're gay like Bert and Ernie?
 
2014-07-08 10:43:14 AM  

walkerhound: I have two early thirty-something guys living a couple houses down from me.  One works in a nutrition store and looks like a beefcake.  Does anyone think they're gay like Bert and Ernie?


Why not just ask them?
 
2014-07-08 10:44:05 AM  
Matthew 26:49
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.

So this religious bakery is upset because their faith disagrees with a gay lifestyle? Their religion based upon the life of a man who spent a majority of his life with 12 other men.

In Minnesota if someone does not want concealed weapons in their establishment they need to post by the door "guns banned on this premises", or something similar. If someone wants to be this bigoted maybe they need to post something similar so gay people and any non bigoted people can avoid the business.

I might suggest.
" I am a bigoted asshole, and believe love one another only referred to opposite sex couples, so my baked goods are not to be eaten by gays."

That would help gays and others like myself to avoid their business.
 
2014-07-08 10:44:50 AM  

GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.


You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?
 
2014-07-08 10:45:02 AM  
So Bert and Ernie are pole-smokers? I guess that makes sense what with it being a children's program, and whatnot...
 
2014-07-08 10:45:31 AM  
Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

There was a cake lady in our area who wouldn't make us a Harry potter cake (and several dozen themed cupcakes) because she thought the witchcraft was against her christian beliefs. Our response was to tell her that's too bad because this was a huge order that would have made her known to lots of people on the kids bday party circuit. Then we found someone else and told all our guests that the first business doesn't do Harry potter. They all thought that was weird and nobody used her. A woman at work said the lady wouldn't do her daughter's quinceanera cake because she thought the black flowers were inappropriate!! She lost a lot of business from people who were willing to pay good money for custom cakes. She was only in business about two or three years and I imagine it was because she kept turning down jobs.
But nobody had to get the government involved!! No one claimed she discriminated against Hispanics or was oppressing wiccans or any if that horseshiat. You don't like someone's business practices then run them out of business.
 
2014-07-08 10:45:48 AM  

Diogenes: "the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.


Yeah! Freedom be damned! You print what we tell you to print, dammit! Would any bakery be hit with a lawsuit if they refused to put on a cake, "Abortion is murder?" Probably not.
 
2014-07-08 10:48:41 AM  

Heamer: I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.


I opened a fireworks stand, but I only sold snakes and sparklers, because that's what I like.
 
2014-07-08 10:50:29 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.

Sadly, I think you might be serious.  Hey?  Remember the old mantra, "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Over It'?   Well, most thinking people have.  The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen?  I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.


I respectfully disagree. Discrimination can't be tolerated. The cake or whatever other service was denied based on arbitrary nonsense "belief" is entirely beside the point; it could be disposed of once delivered since it would probably contain "undesirable matter" anyway. The principle of the matter - that is to say, that discrimination is not legal or acceptable in civilized society - is the point, not the cake. And that point rises far above just gay people or any other group - it benefits all of society when this sort of nonsense is removed from it.
 
2014-07-08 10:51:17 AM  

limboslam: Diogenes: "the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.

Yeah! Freedom be damned! You print what we tell you to print, dammit! Would any bakery be hit with a lawsuit if they refused to put on a cake, "Abortion is murder?" Probably not.


Yeah! It's not like screaming about being oppressed is something that very many religious folks (especially Christians) do.

I agree with you suing them isn't really a battle worth fighting but lets not pretend that religious folks are morally superior on this front.
 
2014-07-08 10:51:20 AM  

MythDragon: Heamer: I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.

I opened a fireworks stand, but I only sold snakes and sparklers, because that's what I like.


i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-07-08 10:51:36 AM  
Every so often I have a dream weird enough to remember.  A number of years ago, I had one about Ernie having a sex change and becoming Ernestina because Sesame Street was concerned that Bert and Ernie would be seen as a gay couple instead of as roommates.  Waking up, I thought it was stupid reasoning and kinda funny.  Might be why that became one of the dreams I remember for years or decades.

I read the article expecting to see a religious bakery refusing to make a cake for a kids birthday because of that kind of reasoning.  Burt and Ernie are fictional characters on a kids show aimed at toddlers and preschoolers.  Because of that they are portrayed in a manner that has no sexual dimension whatsoever.  I was surprised to see someone actually trying to portray a pair of kids characters as a homosexual couple in order to protest to gain the right for homosexuals to marry in that area of the country.

In the article this seems to be a matter of courtesy and common sense.  If the organization knew that the bakery was owned by religious people, they should have found another bakery rather than offend the owners of the bakery that they tried to hire for a part of their protest.  If they didn't know, they should have apologized, or at least made a token apology, and gone to a different bakery.

I really don't see any reason to ban homosexual marriage, polygamous marriage, etc. as long as all parties have legal rights to consent to the marriage.  An underage kid can't consent so no underage marriage.  Critters can't consent, so no marriage to turtles or any other critters.  If you are legally able to choose to consent and don't want to be in a marriage with a same sex partner or more than one partner, don't consent to be in one and you won't be in one.

As for religion, if the Church of X Denomination doesn't agree with homosexual marriage as a group, they don't have to perform the wedding ceremony.  As long as the couple has the marriage license, the marriage is still legal and there are probably several other denominations that will perform the ceremony, if the couple doesn't just get married at the justice of the peace like a lot of heterosexual couples do.
 
2014-07-08 10:52:58 AM  

Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.

You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?


"Reasonable" has nothing to do with it if we're going to use cases like this to compel businesses to produce whatever goods a customer demands.
 
2014-07-08 10:53:22 AM  

Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?


Not everyone lives in New York City and has fairly easy access to a couple dozen bakers. My mom grew up in a town that currently has 3,500 residents. How many bakers do you think work there?
 
2014-07-08 10:53:28 AM  

debug: Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?

You don't know the story of Jesus asking everyone their sexual preference before he handed out the loaves and fishes?  The gays didn't get a loaf cause making baked goods for gay people promotes their sexual preferences, don't ya know.


But that's not the right analogy.  The baker doesn't ask people about their private concerns before serving them.  The customer in this case asked for a super-gay themed cake.  The right analogy would be is two gays in the loaves and fish line came up and said to Jesus we are going to sodomize each other with these loaves and fishes, can we have some please?
 
2014-07-08 10:54:31 AM  

MythDragon: Heamer: I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.

I opened a fireworks stand, but I only sold snakes and sparklers, because that's what I like.


Because you weren't getting by on your tracking wages?

/it's not what you like, it's the consumer
 
2014-07-08 10:55:24 AM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.


Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad.   Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like.  As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid.  Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do.  The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!
 
2014-07-08 10:56:15 AM  

Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

There was a cake lady in our area who wouldn't make us a Harry potter cake (and several dozen themed cupcakes) because she thought the witchcraft was against her christian beliefs. Our response was to tell her that's too bad because this was a huge order that would have made her known to lots of people on the kids bday party circuit. Then we found someone else and told all our guests that the first business doesn't do Harry potter. They all thought that was weird and nobody used her. A woman at work said the lady wouldn't do her daughter's quinceanera cake because she thought the black flowers were inappropriate!! She lost a lot of business from people who were willing to pay good money for custom cakes. She was only in business about two or three years and I imagine it was because she kept turning down jobs.
But nobody had to get the government involved!! No one claimed she discriminated against Hispanics or was oppressing wiccans or any if that horseshiat. You don't like someone's business practices then run them out of business.


Quit being sensible when we have a reason to be angry.

If Sterling was left in charge of the team this is a few things that would happen:
    1. People would quit going to the games
    2. Players would refuse to play for him
    3. Team would lose value
    4. Sponsorship's would be lost
    5. Other teams might even refuse to play against them further driving down the revenue.

Instead, he makes tons of money selling the team. Would it not have been better just to let him drive himself out of business?
 
2014-07-08 10:56:33 AM  

Deedeemarz: witchcraft was against her christian beliefs.


Jesus was a Brujo.
 
2014-07-08 10:56:46 AM  
Alternate Headline: Anti-gay bigot so obsessed with homosexuality that he sees it *everywhere*

Alternate Alternate Headline: Closeted homosexual acts like a bigot
 
2014-07-08 10:56:50 AM  

Gaylord Fister: "We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?


The bakery didn't refuse service to them.   McDonald's might decline to make you a Quarter Pounder with
the patty cut into a shape of a pentagram.

Now, if you came in and had a pentagram necklace on and McDonald's simply refused to make you a Quarter Pounder, that would be different.
 
2014-07-08 10:56:54 AM  

bestsportnascar: fluffy2097: bestsportnascar: I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?

Well, if you don't bid for a job, you don't get picked to do it.

Do some custom cake companies put a price on the job? It could be argued that they didn't want to bid on the job of this cake.


That is another thing: why do they have to give a reason for not taking this job. "Hey baker, please make me a gay cake." "No thanks." If I call a business and they say they can't do whatever it is I need then I hang up and call another business. Pretty simple process. Never ask about their philosophical leanings or anything!
 
2014-07-08 10:57:37 AM  
I have a hobby that is turning into a profitable hobby. Custom carved wood. And I'll take revenue from anyone.
 
2014-07-08 10:57:41 AM  

MonoChango: Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!


Oh, come one. They both get fisted for a living.
 
2014-07-08 10:58:15 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Alternate Headline: Anti-gay bigot so obsessed with homosexuality that he sees it *everywhere*

Alternate Alternate Headline: Closeted homosexual acts like a bigot


Look who didn't read the article.
 
2014-07-08 10:59:36 AM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.


Brilliant.

Next, we can drive a bakery owned by black people out of business if they decline to make a cake with white-power slogans on it. Then we'll find a bakery owned by Muslims and order a cake with an image of Muhammad on it, then use their reaction as an excuse to run them out of business. Top it off with a cake that says "The Holocaust Never Happened" from a bakery run by Jewish people, and call it a productive day.
 
2014-07-08 10:59:48 AM  

Heamer: I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.


Much of what happens in the world only makes sense once you realize that religious people are stupid.
 
2014-07-08 10:59:59 AM  

Nutsac_Jim: Gaylord Fister: "We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?

The bakery didn't refuse service to them.   McDonald's might decline to make you a Quarter Pounder with
the patty cut into a shape of a pentagram.

Now, if you came in and had a pentagram necklace on and McDonald's simply refused to make you a Quarter Pounder, that would be different.


Um, this bakery does this exact thing on a daily basis. If I ordered a cake with "praise jesus" on it, they would do it. If I ordered one with a bible on it and "1 corinthians", they would do it.

They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

Last time I checked, McDonald's doesn't cut any burgers into any shapes for anyone.
 
2014-07-08 11:01:12 AM  
Smile. Make the cake. Drop the cake during delivery. Give them a refund. Problem solved. They are, after all, pursuing you to make their cake as a calculated scene in political thuggery. Return the favor.

Or, they could go to a Muslim Bakery (NSFW) and demand a gay wedding cake covered in the symbols of Israel.

Yes. let's see the strength of their convictions. Go ahead. I dare you.
 
2014-07-08 11:01:13 AM  

bestsportnascar: Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

There was a cake lady in our area who wouldn't make us a Harry potter cake (and several dozen themed cupcakes) because she thought the witchcraft was against her christian beliefs. Our response was to tell her that's too bad because this was a huge order that would have made her known to lots of people on the kids bday party circuit. Then we found someone else and told all our guests that the first business doesn't do Harry potter. They all thought that was weird and nobody used her. A woman at work said the lady wouldn't do her daughter's quinceanera cake because she thought the black flowers were inappropriate!! She lost a lot of business from people who were willing to pay good money for custom cakes. She was only in business about two or three years and I imagine it was because she kept turning down jobs.
But nobody had to get the government involved!! No one claimed she discriminated against Hispanics or was oppressing wiccans or any if that horseshiat. You don't like someone's business practices then run them out of business.

Quit being sensible when we have a reason to be angry.

If Sterling was left in charge of the team this is a few things that would happen:
    1. People would quit going to the games
    2. Players would refuse to play for him
    3. Team would lose value
    4. Sponsorship's would be lost
    5. Other teams might even refuse to play against them further driving down the revenue.

Instead, he makes tons of money selling the team. Would it not have been better just to let him drive himself out of business?


No it wouldn't because the Clippers aren't a business he owns, they are a franchise and all those things you listed are ultimately bad for the other 29 people who own franchises.
 
2014-07-08 11:01:15 AM  

MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad.   Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like.  As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid.  Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do.  The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!


I run a deli. I think women who are on their periods are poisonous and risk ruining society. I want to force women to reveal their cooters to me or a designated representative and prove that they are not gushing blood out of their twat before I allow them to come inside. Do you support my position?
 
gja
2014-07-08 11:02:15 AM  

Egoy3k: walkerhound: I have two early thirty-something guys living a couple houses down from me.  One works in a nutrition store and looks like a beefcake.  Does anyone think they're gay like Bert and Ernie?

Why not just ask them?


Or you could, you know, mind your own damned business, nosey barker.
 
2014-07-08 11:02:25 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?


Most cake shops don't have "We are bigots" outside the door to warn you. But I am in the UK, maybe they do in the US. Once they announce they are bigots to their potential customers, then you sue them, ensuring the financial and publicity penalties for running a public business in a bigoted manner that society has agreed are applied to them. You don't tend to be suing them to force them to make the cake, you go make other arrangements.


The more minorities that pursue such actions, the less often it will happen as either the shops will lose money and go out of business leaving the better businesses with less competition, or some of owners of shops less committed to public bigotry will decide against the financial risk and just get on and do their jobs without trying to enforce their morality on their customers.


We (as a society) wouldn't accept not baking a cake because it had a mixed race couple on it nowadays, so why would we accept any other legally allowed relationship being celebrated. Would you accept a supermarket not serving blacks? Or a MacDonald server turning away Christians? Or a hotel refusing to accept bookings from Jews? If you open your business to the public, then you serve all the members of the public, you don't get to pick and choose. Worry about your own morality, which according to your own rulebook is probably intent on sending you to burn forever for being a hateful scumbag, and let other people make their own (legal) choices.
 
2014-07-08 11:02:28 AM  

Serious Black: Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

Not everyone lives in New York City and has fairly easy access to a couple dozen bakers. My mom grew up in a town that currently has 3,500 residents. How many bakers do you think work there?


I dunno, never been to New York. Live in a small town in Texas. We never go to a bakery. In our little towns, word of mouth is how you discover who the newest cake lady is. They advertise on grocery store bulletin boards and stuff I think. Also, unless this town is completely isolated and unable to connect to the rest of the area by internet or phone, you can surely find a nearby baker. Or are they not allowed outside the village walls? Is it too much to drive 15 miles to get the custom cake you want? Damn sure there is at least a Walmart that could suffice....
 
2014-07-08 11:02:59 AM  
This is no different than slavery.
 
2014-07-08 11:03:12 AM  

bestsportnascar: Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

There was a cake lady in our area who wouldn't make us a Harry potter cake (and several dozen themed cupcakes) because she thought the witchcraft was against her christian beliefs. Our response was to tell her that's too bad because this was a huge order that would have made her known to lots of people on the kids bday party circuit. Then we found someone else and told all our guests that the first business doesn't do Harry potter. They all thought that was weird and nobody used her. A woman at work said the lady wouldn't do her daughter's quinceanera cake because she thought the black flowers were inappropriate!! She lost a lot of business from people who were willing to pay good money for custom cakes. She was only in business about two or three years and I imagine it was because she kept turning down jobs.
But nobody had to get the government involved!! No one claimed she discriminated against Hispanics or was oppressing wiccans or any if that horseshiat. You don't like someone's business practices then run them out of business.

Quit being sensible when we have a reason to be angry.

If Sterling was left in charge of the team this is a few things that would happen:
    1. People would quit going to the games
    2. Players would refuse to play for him
    3. Team would lose value
    4. Sponsorship's would be lost
    5. Other teams might even refuse to play against them further driving down the revenue.

Instead, he makes tons of money selling the team. Would it not have been better just to let him drive himself out of business?


I agree!
 
2014-07-08 11:03:19 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?

You can love someone, but still not support their lifestyle.

Personally, I don't care. Marry your cat if you want.


Except that being gay is not a "lifestyle." It's who a person is. So, if you love someone, you have to love all of them, even if that means that you are accepting that a part of them is not what you hoped for.
 
2014-07-08 11:03:36 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.

Sadly, I think you might be serious.  Hey?  Remember the old mantra, "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Over It'?   Well, most thinking people have.  The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen? I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.


Those religious people. Such upstanding, tolerant, and moral individuals.
 
2014-07-08 11:04:05 AM  

HoustonNick: We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in


www.thesaudavoice.com

GO
nysiaf.org

fark

www.ohs.org

YOURSELF
 
2014-07-08 11:04:28 AM  
How about you not sell Bert & Ernie cakes because the Bert & Ernie characters aren't owned by you and you can't make & sell products with their images on them without permission from Sesame Workshop, you bigoted retards.
 
2014-07-08 11:04:39 AM  
Wanted to post pictures of the Penis Cake and the Vag Cake, some for relatively straight weddings or bachelor/ette parties -- wasn't sure no Farkers worked in a bakery.

Bakeries already have lots of sexual stuff going on -- ever kneaded dough or used an icing tube? The owner just doesn't want it to get out of hand with more sexual avenues with his already over-sexed employees with the introduction of children's show characters.

img.fark.net
 
2014-07-08 11:07:00 AM  

GoldSpider: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Alternate Headline: Anti-gay bigot so obsessed with homosexuality that he sees it *everywhere*

Alternate Alternate Headline: Closeted homosexual acts like a bigot

Look who didn't read the article.


Guilty as charged

** reads article ***

Yeah, that makes a chowder out of my first headline. The second one stands
 
2014-07-08 11:07:21 AM  
Oh, so what.  Laugh at them and take your business to a different bakery.
They are only hurting themselves.

I mean, I would seriously laugh out loud at them and happily announce that they can go fark themselves!  Idiots.
 
2014-07-08 11:07:33 AM  

xria: We (as a society) wouldn't accept not baking a cake because it had a mixed race couple on it nowadays, so why would we accept any other legally allowed relationship being celebrated. Would you accept a supermarket not serving blacks? Or a MacDonald server turning away Christians? Or a hotel refusing to accept bookings from Jews? If you open your business to the public, then you serve all the members of the public, you don't get to pick and choose. Worry about your own morality, which according to your own rulebook is probably intent on sending you to burn forever for being a hateful scumbag, and let other people make their own (legal) choices.


But what if I refuse service to someone because they had refused service to someone.
 
2014-07-08 11:08:23 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Why do they have to drag Bert & Ernie in to this?


To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?


Seriously, this has always bugged the hell out of me.

What kind of pervert looks at 2 puppets portraying 2 guys who live in the same house and imagines a whole sexual relationship between them?
 
2014-07-08 11:08:33 AM  

limboslam: Diogenes: "the case proves the need for the law to reasonably accommodate family-run businesses with firmly held beliefs".

Nice to see that England can still learn something from its petulant and rebellious children in America.  Too bad it's the wrong lesson.

Yeah! Freedom be damned! You print what we tell you to print, dammit! Would any bakery be hit with a lawsuit if they refused to put on a cake, "Abortion is murder?" Probably not.


You (and several others) appear to be missing the difference between what someone DOES and what someone IS.

An opinion is malleable, it is changeable - yesterday I was pro-life, today I am pro-choice - and more or less does not fundamentally change a person. Carrying a gun on your person is a changeable state - you can quite easily change that state.

You cannot leave your race at the door. You cannot leave your sexual orientation at the door (you can leave your lover and be celibate, but the junk wants what it wants). You cannot leave your presented gender at the door (you can change clothes and shave, but some dudes simply look like chicks and some chicks simply look like dudes. You can't change or explain that).

Generally, in America you can discriminate against someone for what they say or do - being a pro-life activist, open-carrying your arsenal of handguns, your noisy neighbor - but you cannot discriminate against someone for who they are - being black; and in some places, you can't discriminate against someone even if you think they're gay.

// you can leave your religion at the door, too
// it's easy if you try
 
2014-07-08 11:08:47 AM  

vudukungfu: MonoChango: Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!

Oh, come one. They both get fisted for a living.


You evil sonofabiatch. now I'll have that image in my head all day.  thanks  :-)
 
2014-07-08 11:09:02 AM  
So, who'd jump out of the cake?
fc05.deviantart.net
 
2014-07-08 11:09:54 AM  
1. I really don't see Bert & Ernie as gay. They're more like classic comedy teams such as Abbot & Costello or Martin & Lewis, or whoever Bing Crosby & Bob Hope were playing in the various "Road to..." movies. Buddies. Pals. Roomies out of necessity, not out of some deep abiding love for one another. They have a symbiotic relationship. One guy is kinda grumpy and needs the friendly charm of the other in order to get along in society, while the other is kinda naive and needs the stalwart pessimism of the other to protect him from ne'er-do-wells. But gay? No. I just don't see it in those two.

Now Statler & Waldorf? Those guys are totally a couple.

2. While I think it's bigoted and awful that people refuse service because of their religious beliefs, I also think it's insane to take your business to someone who wants to be a total dick about their religious beliefs. I don't shop at Hobby Lobby if I can help it. I don't give money to Chic Fil'A, and I don't go to bakeries or restaurants that are operated by bigots. I suggest other people do the same. Eventually, if they stop seeing as many customers they lose money and go out of business. It may take years, but in the end it's worth it to watch them crash & burn because they have God's finger up their ass.
 
2014-07-08 11:10:16 AM  

GoldSpider: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.

You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?

"Reasonable" has nothing to do with it if we're going to use cases like this to compel businesses to produce whatever goods a customer demands.


THEY'RE ASKING A BAKERY THAT MAKES CAKES TO MAKE A CAKE. THIS BUSINESS ALREADY PRODUCES THESE THINGS. THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO PRODUCE THIS ONE BECAUSE THEY ARE BIGOTS.
 
2014-07-08 11:10:45 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Yeah, that makes a chowder out of my first headline. The second one stands


In fairness, subby's headline was misleading/deceptive.
 
2014-07-08 11:10:50 AM  
If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.
 
2014-07-08 11:11:18 AM  

Deedeemarz: Serious Black: Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

Not everyone lives in New York City and has fairly easy access to a couple dozen bakers. My mom grew up in a town that currently has 3,500 residents. How many bakers do you think work there?

I dunno, never been to New York. Live in a small town in Texas. We never go to a bakery. In our little towns, word of mouth is how you discover who the newest cake lady is. They advertise on grocery store bulletin boards and stuff I think. Also, unless this town is completely isolated and unable to connect to the rest of the area by internet or phone, you can surely find a nearby baker. Or are they not allowed outside the village walls? Is it too much to drive 15 miles to get the custom cake you want? Damn sure there is at least a Walmart that could suffice....


Last time I was there (which admittedly was about ten years ago), I don't recall there being a Wal-Mart in town. A quick Google search says the nearest Wal-Mart to this town is an hour away.

As to your other question about going to another town, there are three towns within half an hour drive of the original place in question. Their populations are 2,300, 1,700, and 250, i.e. much smaller and less likely to have a baker who is willing to bake a cake for a same-sex couple's wedding.
 
2014-07-08 11:11:31 AM  
Elliot8654:  

Last time I checked, McDonald's doesn't cut any burgers into any shapes for anyone.

They cut them into round shapes.
 
2014-07-08 11:12:14 AM  

Timid Goddess: Every so often I have a dream weird enough to remember.  A number of years ago, I had one about Ernie having a sex change and becoming Ernestina because Sesame Street was concerned that Bert and Ernie would be seen as a gay couple instead of as roommates.  Waking up, I thought it was stupid reasoning and kinda funny.  Might be why that became one of the dreams I remember for years or decades.

I read the article expecting to see a religious bakery refusing to make a cake for a kids birthday because of that kind of reasoning.  Burt and Ernie are fictional characters on a kids show aimed at toddlers and preschoolers.  Because of that they are portrayed in a manner that has no sexual dimension whatsoever.  I was surprised to see someone actually trying to portray a pair of kids characters as a homosexual couple in order to protest to gain the right for homosexuals to marry in that area of the country.

In the article this seems to be a matter of courtesy and common sense.  If the organization knew that the bakery was owned by religious people, they should have found another bakery rather than offend the owners of the bakery that they tried to hire for a part of their protest.  If they didn't know, they should have apologized, or at least made a token apology, and gone to a different bakery.

I really don't see any reason to ban homosexual marriage, polygamous marriage, etc. as long as all parties have legal rights to consent to the marriage.  An underage kid can't consent so no underage marriage.  Critters can't consent, so no marriage to turtles or any other critters.  If you are legally able to choose to consent and don't want to be in a marriage with a same sex partner or more than one partner, don't consent to be in one and you won't be in one.

As for religion, if the Church of X Denomination doesn't agree with homosexual marriage as a group, they don't have to perform the wedding ceremony.  As long as the couple has the marriage license, the marriage is still leg ...


The people being discriminated against should have made an apology? My god, this is the stupidest one yet.
 
2014-07-08 11:12:17 AM  
Religious Bakery?

Exodus 29:2  And from fine wheat flour, without yeast, make bread, and cakes mixed with oil, and wafers spread with oil.

Hypocrites
 
2014-07-08 11:13:10 AM  

Selena Luna: THEY'RE ASKING A BAKERY THAT MAKES CAKES TO MAKE A CAKE. THIS BUSINESS ALREADY PRODUCES THESE THINGS. THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO PRODUCE THIS ONE BECAUSE THEY ARE BIGOTS.


I know why they don't want to produce this particular product.  I just don't think it's a compelling reason to force them to do so.
 
2014-07-08 11:13:11 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Smile. Make the cake. Drop the cake during delivery. Give them a refund. Problem solved. They are, after all, pursuing you to make their cake as a calculated scene in political thuggery. Return the favor.

Or, they could go to a Muslim Bakery (NSFW) and demand a gay wedding cake covered in the symbols of Israel.

Yes. let's see the strength of their convictions. Go ahead. I dare you.


To be fair, I can't imagine anyone in the western world wanting to eat a cake made by hardcore Muslims no matter what decorations are on top. When I think "Muslim" I don't think "yummy, sweet confections and pastries" -- I think "cous cous, olives, and hummus".
 
2014-07-08 11:13:22 AM  

I_Am_Weasel: Damn it.  I wish I could edit post post.  Sure I could proof read before I post, but that would make more sense.

/that=to (obviously)


You knew the rules coming in here. Weasel or not, it's best to just let the mistooks go.
 
2014-07-08 11:14:16 AM  
reubz.squarespace.com

Bert supports the terrist and wishes global Jihad on the worthless American dogs. Cake is the food that the false prophets use to coerce the masses to the devil's lair. Devil's food. Almost a pun there.
 
2014-07-08 11:15:00 AM  

vudukungfu: Can I get a dead jesus nailed to another dead jesus on my cake?


img.fark.net
 
2014-07-08 11:15:25 AM  
Meh. A company shouldn't have to be forced to make a product it does not want to make
 
2014-07-08 11:16:11 AM  

Tom_Slick: If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.


Bingo.

Also, I don't understand how people can consider this "discrimination", other than a poor understanding of the word.  As far as I could tell from the article, the bakery did not know whether the customer was gay or straight.
 
2014-07-08 11:16:14 AM  
I think Sesame Street has made it clear you're a sick farker if you feel the need to assign any sexual orientation to a children's puppet.  They own it they made it clear they want nothing to do with the debate either way so no I wouldn't make your cake. How about a Luke and Han cake?
 
2014-07-08 11:16:24 AM  
I always thought Bert was an adult, and Ernie a child.  Based on that, I'd refuse to make a peda-cake.
 
2014-07-08 11:16:34 AM  

Selena Luna: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.

You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?

"Reasonable" has nothing to do with it if we're going to use cases like this to compel businesses to produce whatever goods a customer demands.

THEY'RE ASKING A BAKERY THAT MAKES CAKES TO MAKE A CAKE. THIS BUSINESS ALREADY PRODUCES THESE THINGS. THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO PRODUCE THIS ONE BECAUSE THEY ARE BIGOTS.


Well, since you shouted, that must make it true.
 
2014-07-08 11:16:46 AM  
I wish gays would go back in the closet. I'm sick of hearing about them.
 
2014-07-08 11:17:51 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Smile. Make the cake. Drop the cake during delivery. Give them a refund. Problem solved. They are, after all, pursuing you to make their cake as a calculated scene in political thuggery. Return the favor.

Or, they could go to a Muslim Bakery (NSFW) and demand a gay wedding cake covered in the symbols of Israel.

Yes. let's see the strength of their convictions. Go ahead. I dare you.


I know a Jewish dude that has a screenprinting shop. One of his regular accounts was the local branch of HammerSkins. Straight up red shirts with a round white spot on the left chest and a black swastika in it, and the same but larger on the back. They paid their bill on time, they weren't totally unpleasant customers to deal with, and they kept coming back for several years. They knew he was Jewish, and he knew damn well what he was printing. They still did business.

Shrug.
 
2014-07-08 11:18:54 AM  
Hate-mongers strike again.
 
2014-07-08 11:19:38 AM  

Prince George: How about a Luke and Han cake?


Luke and Leia cake for incest is best week.

/I feel dirty and a little turned on.
 
2014-07-08 11:19:39 AM  

Serious Black: Deedeemarz: Serious Black: Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

Not everyone lives in New York City and has fairly easy access to a couple dozen bakers. My mom grew up in a town that currently has 3,500 residents. How many bakers do you think work there?

I dunno, never been to New York. Live in a small town in Texas. We never go to a bakery. In our little towns, word of mouth is how you discover who the newest cake lady is. They advertise on grocery store bulletin boards and stuff I think. Also, unless this town is completely isolated and unable to connect to the rest of the area by internet or phone, you can surely find a nearby baker. Or are they not allowed outside the village walls? Is it too much to drive 15 miles to get the custom cake you want? Damn sure there is at least a Walmart that could suffice....

Last time I was there (which admittedly was about ten years ago), I don't recall there being a Wal-Mart in town. A quick Google search says the nearest Wal-Mart to this town is an hour away.

As to your other question about going to another town, there are three towns within half an hour drive of the original place in question. Their populations are 2,300, 1,700, and 250, i.e. much smaller and less likely to have a baker who is willing to bake a cake for a same-sex couple's wedding.


Then I suggest they make it themselves, have one delivered, or move. If you choose to live in an area where your options are that limited then I suppose you better learn to make do with what's available. Still not a reason to impose upon a local business person who isn't interested in having your business whatever the reason. If enough other people think the baker is wrong, then his business will suffer.
 
2014-07-08 11:20:15 AM  

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


This.
 
jlt
2014-07-08 11:21:31 AM  

soporific: maxx2112: Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.

Now I really want to see a child named Judas Iscariot. (And it works for a boy or a girl.) Or perhaps Bennedict Arnold.

/because I apparently hate children today
//at least we're not naming a boy Sue
///let's name a boy Sue


I had a cat named Judas Iscariot.
 
2014-07-08 11:21:56 AM  

Elliot8654: Nutsac_Jim: Gaylord Fister: "We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in."

So stores should be allowed to refuse service to black people?

The bakery didn't refuse service to them.   McDonald's might decline to make you a Quarter Pounder with
the patty cut into a shape of a pentagram.

Now, if you came in and had a pentagram necklace on and McDonald's simply refused to make you a Quarter Pounder, that would be different.

Um, this bakery does this exact thing on a daily basis. If I ordered a cake with "praise jesus" on it, they would do it. If I ordered one with a bible on it and "1 corinthians", they would do it.

They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

Last time I checked, McDonald's doesn't cut any burgers into any shapes for anyone.


Again.  This is OK.

They are not refusing to bake you a cake because you are gay/black/woman.  This would not be acceptable.

You are more than welcome to order a "praise jesus" cake from then, even if you are a black lesbian.

I can have my lawn mowed.  I can tell my landscaper to make the mower setting really short and spell out "wetbacks are the devil's children" on my lawn.

He can certainly refuse to do this, even though he cuts grass, right ?

If he doesn't, he is just a racist, right?
 
2014-07-08 11:22:10 AM  
Strictly from a legal angle I wonder how this will turn out. They could argue that they wouldn't sell that particular cake to anyone regardless of sexual orientation.
 
2014-07-08 11:22:49 AM  

genner: Strictly from a legal angle I wonder how this will turn out. They could argue that they wouldn't sell that particular cake to anyone regardless of sexual orientation.


That too.
 
2014-07-08 11:23:06 AM  

MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad.   Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like.  As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid.  Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do.  The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!



I don't believe the same thing you believe.  Who gets to be the "right"  belief?  That's just a silly argument.  Either you are a business open to the public, and you provide services to the public, ALL the public, regardless if you agree with what they believe or not.  I personally think that women over a certain weight (I'm female, btw) should not be allowed to buy yoga pants for whatever reason.  However, if I were a store owner that sold yoga pants, and I got lots of business from fatties, I damn sure would stay stocked up on fatty yoga pants.

If you are a business owner and you think the money gays/blacks/women/fatties/little people spend is any different than the money old fat white men spend, you're an idiot.

Now the whole WTF with involving Bert and Ernie?  I totally agree with you on that.
 
2014-07-08 11:23:52 AM  

Deedeemarz: Then I suggest they make it themselves, have one delivered, or move. If you choose to live in an area where your options are that limited then I suppose you better learn to make do with what's available. Still not a reason to impose upon a local business person who isn't interested in having your business whatever the reason. If enough other people think the baker is wrong, then his business will suffer.


I'll let The Cap speak on this suggestion

static.comicvine.com
 
2014-07-08 11:25:29 AM  

Tom_Slick: If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.


I see Sesame Street and Disney cakes at my local grocery store all the time.
 
2014-07-08 11:25:48 AM  
Hello, nice Bakery Proprietor.  I wish to purchase a cake. That one will be fine.  White icing and a nice, vanilla cake.  Perfect.  I would also like to purchase two of those wedding people.  They are  lovely couples.  Yes, two sets.  Two grooms, two brides.  Here is my money.  Thank you and it's been a pleasure.  I'll be telling all my friends that you sold me a ghey wedding cake and you will probably be condemmed to heck for it.

(Devilish laughter as I leave) (Maybe have a forked red tail hanging out of my pants that they see as I leave)

Bonus:  I get a cake and I can launch the grooms on the 8:20 Roman Candle Express.  The little brides stay with me - forever.
 
2014-07-08 11:25:52 AM  

Son of Thunder: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Brilliant.

Next, we can drive a bakery owned by black people out of business if they decline to make a cake with white-power slogans on it. Then we'll find a bakery owned by Muslims and order a cake with an image of Muhammad on it, then use their reaction as an excuse to run them out of business. Top it off with a cake that says "The Holocaust Never Happened" from a bakery run by Jewish people, and call it a productive day.


sure, and we can put the signs back up forbidding black people at lunch counters, prohibit jews from shopping in muslim owned stores, whatever.

I see you still are the same pants on head reactionary you always are.  Nice to see consistency.
 
2014-07-08 11:26:10 AM  

Serious Black: MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad.   Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like.  As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid.  Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do.  The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF.   Quit screwing up my childhood!

I run a deli. I think women who are on their periods are poisonous and risk ruining society. I want to force women to reveal their cooters to me or a designated representative and prove that they are not gushing blood out of their twat before I allow them to come inside. Do you support my position?

"As long as it doesn't hurt anyone,

 "  Sexual assult would not qualify.  But if some ultra conservitive Islamic wanted to kick all the woman out of his coffee house. I have no problem with him doing so.  I would just not give him my money.  There is a big difference between some butt head that will not serve "X" minority and a LAW that says "X" type of people does not have the same freedom other citizens have.   If someone doesn't want to serve my brown wife and my mutt kids, fine we go somewhere else, and laugh the whole way out the door.  That is freedom.  It sucks that aholes exist but thankfully they don't generally last long in modern American culture.  I think what people are trying to tell the gay community is that: Most people support your right to do what you want, but when you start using laws to force the issue, then You become the A-hole.  And that is uncool.
 
2014-07-08 11:26:30 AM  
That ain't Bubble Bath.

img.cakesdecor.com
Seems like Ernie is a power top.

img.fark.net

1.bp.blogspot.com

thejailbreak.com
 
2014-07-08 11:27:37 AM  

Colour_out_of_Space: Religious Bakery?

Exodus 29:2  And from fine wheat flour, without yeast, make bread, and cakes mixed with oil, and wafers spread with oil.

Hypocrites


Well that was taken totally out of context, and has nothing to do with this discussion.

Consecration of the Priests

29 "Now this is what you shall do to them to consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests. Take one bull of the herd and two rams without blemish, 2and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers smeared with oil. You shall make them of fine wheat flour. 3You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, and bring the bull and the two rams. 4You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting and wash them with water. 5Then you shall take the garments, and put on Aaron the coat and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastpiece, and gird him with the skillfully woven band of the ephod. 6And you shall set the turban on his head and put the holy crown on the turban. 7You shall take the anointing oil and pour it on his head and anoint him. 8Then you shall bring his sons and put coats on them, 9and you shall gird Aaron and his sons with sashes and bind caps on them. And the priesthood shall be theirs by a statute forever. Thus you shall ordain Aaron and his sons.
 
2014-07-08 11:27:50 AM  
I support gay marriage, but I also support the bakery here.  If they don't want to decorate the cake with something they disagree with, I have no problems with that.  Sell the Bert/Ernie cake without the slogan and let the customers write the message.  Now if they refuse to sell the Bert/Ernie cake based on sexual orientation, that's an actual problem.
 
2014-07-08 11:28:05 AM  

fiddlehead: Tom_Slick: If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.

I see Sesame Street and Disney cakes at my local grocery store all the time.


They pay licensing fees.
 
2014-07-08 11:28:41 AM  

jlt: soporific: maxx2112: Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.

Now I really want to see a child named Judas Iscariot. (And it works for a boy or a girl.) Or perhaps Bennedict Arnold.

/because I apparently hate children today
//at least we're not naming a boy Sue
///let's name a boy Sue

I had a cat named Judas Iscariot.


Sir Gerald Nabardo has a pet prawn called Simon. Furthermore, Dawn Pailthorpe, the lady show-jumper, had a clam called Stafford, after the late Chancellor; Allan Bullock has two pikes, both called Chris; and Marcel Proust had an haddock.
www.cardinalfang.net
 
2014-07-08 11:28:48 AM  
Didn't Seasame Street Workshop say NO to the LGBTQ petitioners who wanted a wedding between Bert and Ernie?  Reason being that they are puppets who do not have a sexual orientation or identity.
 
2014-07-08 11:29:25 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Deedeemarz: Then I suggest they make it themselves, have one delivered, or move. If you choose to live in an area where your options are that limited then I suppose you better learn to make do with what's available. Still not a reason to impose upon a local business person who isn't interested in having your business whatever the reason. If enough other people think the baker is wrong, then his business will suffer.

I'll let The Cap speak on this suggestion


Well, that makes perfect sense if you have the time and money and energy to waste rather than just driving an hour to walmart to buy a cake from people who couldn't care what you want on it. Don't forget to make a sign and plant yourself outside the shop too.
 
2014-07-08 11:30:39 AM  

Cheesus: If they don't want to decorate the cake with something they disagree with, I have no problems with that.


In the US it would be a clear Free Speech issue.
 
2014-07-08 11:31:02 AM  
"Why, hello there Mr. Atheist baker. Could I have a cake for my son's first communion?"
 
2014-07-08 11:31:07 AM  

Son of Thunder: Selena Luna: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Elliot8654: Is that a product they carry? No. Then you are an idiot.

Maybe you can insist that they carry pork and shellfish products, and then sue when they refuse.

You wanna sue a coffee shop when they don't serve steak? Or a pet shop for not selling elephant rifles?

"Reasonable" has nothing to do with it if we're going to use cases like this to compel businesses to produce whatever goods a customer demands.

THEY'RE ASKING A BAKERY THAT MAKES CAKES TO MAKE A CAKE. THIS BUSINESS ALREADY PRODUCES THESE THINGS. THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO PRODUCE THIS ONE BECAUSE THEY ARE BIGOTS.

Well, since you shouted, that must make it true.


Shouting doesn't make it wrong either.
 
2014-07-08 11:31:46 AM  

menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.


oh goodie, this thread to update the ignore list.

all these butthurt 'waaah waah i want someone to bake me a cake who doesnt like me' apologists comparing this to the slavery movement.. ROFL.. wow....
 
2014-07-08 11:32:26 AM  

Elliot8654: Shouting doesn't make it wrong either.


Though I recently learned here that being offended does in fact mean that you're right.
 
2014-07-08 11:32:31 AM  

Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.


They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.
 
2014-07-08 11:33:01 AM  

Chongo79: "Why, hello there Mr. Atheist baker. Could I have a cake for my son's first communion?"


Doesn't change my answer. The baker still doesn't have an obligation to make a religious themed cake.
 
2014-07-08 11:33:02 AM  

xtech: all these butthurt 'waaah waah i want someone to bake me a cake who doesnt like me' apologists comparing this to the slavery movement.. ROFL.. wow....


And people who don't know what the word "discrimination" means.
 
2014-07-08 11:33:28 AM  
Can you people stop with the injecting of your own personal beliefs into your public life? You can go right ahead and hate the gays and stay closeted in your own time, but if you are in business to serve the public, you can bite your tongue for the couple of hours it takes to make and ice a nice cake for the nice paying customers.
 
2014-07-08 11:34:04 AM  

Deedeemarz: scottydoesntknow: Deedeemarz: Then I suggest they make it themselves, have one delivered, or move. If you choose to live in an area where your options are that limited then I suppose you better learn to make do with what's available. Still not a reason to impose upon a local business person who isn't interested in having your business whatever the reason. If enough other people think the baker is wrong, then his business will suffer.

I'll let The Cap speak on this suggestion

Well, that makes perfect sense if you have the time and money and energy to waste rather than just driving an hour to walmart to buy a cake from people who couldn't care what you want on it. Don't forget to make a sign and plant yourself outside the shop too.


Why should the people who did nothing wrong move? The bakery should move to a place that loves discriminating against gays. I hear Uganda is severely lacking in custom-made cake shops. And Russia.
 
2014-07-08 11:34:10 AM  

MonoChango: Serious Black: MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad. Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid. Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do. The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF. Quit screwing up my childhood!

I run a deli. I think women who are on their periods are poisonous and risk ruining society. I want to force women to reveal their cooters to me or a designated representative and prove that they are not gushing blood out of their twat before I allow them to come inside. Do you support my position?

"As long as it doesn't hurt anyone,
" Sexual assult would not qualify


I didn't say I or my designated representative would have to shove something inside their vagina to get the necessary proof. Women just have to reveal their crotches and provide visual evidence that they aren't bleeding profusely. That doesn't count as sexual assault because there is no physical contact. What's the harm in just looking?
 
2014-07-08 11:34:41 AM  

Magorn: how hard would it have been for the bakery to simply mumble something about copyright laws and refuse to make the cake on those grounds instead? Dumbasses


Indeed; given that appropriating copyrighted characters without a license would leave them open to to a copyright violation lawsuit, it'd be a perfectly legitimate excuse.

/ baking the requested cake can get you sued, and not baking it can also get you sued
// glad I'm not a baker
 
2014-07-08 11:35:24 AM  

ReverendJasen: They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.


You aren't missing anything.  This is a point that many in this thread are simply refusing to acknowledge because it castrates most of their argument.
 
2014-07-08 11:35:24 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


He didn't. The people with these beliefs aren't following the Jesus of the Bible, they're following the Jesus who conforms to their prejudices. That's the only reason why they'd even bother following him.
 
2014-07-08 11:35:25 AM  

Chongo79: "Why, hello there Mr. Atheist baker. Could I have a cake for my son's first communion?"


As long as you can get the priest to supply the filling.
 
2014-07-08 11:36:10 AM  

Cheesus: If they don't want to decorate the cake with something they disagree with, I have no problems with that.


There was something in the cake that disagreed with them.
38.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-07-08 11:36:34 AM  

GoldSpider: Cheesus: If they don't want to decorate the cake with something they disagree with, I have no problems with that.

In the US it would be a clear Free Speech issue.


This. In that it's clear that freedom of speech isn't being infringed at all. In the same way, it's a clear income tax issue, a clear Miranda warning issue, a clear voting rights issue, etc.
 
2014-07-08 11:36:36 AM  

ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.


So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!
 
2014-07-08 11:36:44 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Can you people stop with the injecting of your own personal beliefs into your public life? You can go right ahead and hate the gays and stay closeted in your own time, but if you are in business to serve the public, you can bite your tongue for the couple of hours it takes to make and ice a nice cake for the nice paying customers.


No, because freedom of speech (I realize this is in the UK and isn't a 1st amendment issue, but still applies)
 
2014-07-08 11:36:55 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Can you people stop with the injecting of your own personal beliefs into your public life?


Oh the irony.
 
2014-07-08 11:37:31 AM  
I wonder where all of the Catholic bakers are that refuse to make cakes for second weddings.
 
2014-07-08 11:37:37 AM  

HoustonNick: I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.


Your rights end where your "Open for business" sign begins. Just suck it up and make the cake, Nancy. You're only making yourself look bad otherwise.
 
2014-07-08 11:38:37 AM  

Theaetetus: This. In that it's clear that freedom of speech isn't being infringed at all.


I don't think the government here in the U.S. can compel you to endorse a particular viewpoint that you disagree with, but I could be mistaken.
 
2014-07-08 11:38:44 AM  
Except that being gay is not a "lifestyle." It's who a person is. So, if you love someone, you have to love all of them, even if that means that you are accepting that a part of them is not what you hoped for.


Oh, is that the rule?
 
2014-07-08 11:38:48 AM  

Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!


It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?
 
2014-07-08 11:39:27 AM  
Couldnt they have just gotten a Cher cake?

www.cakeandart.com
 
2014-07-08 11:39:31 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Your rights end where your "Open for business" sign begins.


wut?
 
2014-07-08 11:40:14 AM  

Gaseous Anomaly: I wonder where all of the Catholic bakers are that refuse to make cakes for second weddings.


Why would a baker even know that if it's someone's second wedding?
 
2014-07-08 11:40:15 AM  

GoldSpider: ReverendJasen: They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

You aren't missing anything.  This is a point that many in this thread are simply refusing to acknowledge because it castrates most of their argument.


Sure, if that was actually their reasoning.

BUT it wasn't. Their reasoning was they won't bake a cake for a gay couple. If the Bert/Ernie picture had nothing to do with it and the cake instead said "Bill and Bob Forever" do you think the company would've baked it? Of course not.
 
2014-07-08 11:40:21 AM  
Greenstein's still refuses to bake a pork and oyster cake for me.
 
2014-07-08 11:40:26 AM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: This. In that it's clear that freedom of speech isn't being infringed at all.

I don't think the government here in the U.S. can compel you to endorse a particular viewpoint that you disagree with, but I could be mistaken.


I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with," and I know I'm not mistaken.
 
2014-07-08 11:40:26 AM  

Elliot8654: Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!


Pat & Pat

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-07-08 11:41:12 AM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: This. In that it's clear that freedom of speech isn't being infringed at all.

I don't think the government here in the U.S. can compel you to endorse a particular viewpoint that you disagree with, but I could be mistaken.


If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?
 
2014-07-08 11:41:29 AM  

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?


But they clearly do wish to provide the service and make money, or they wouldn't run a bakery.
 
2014-07-08 11:41:35 AM  

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


Do you really want to be in business serving people that you hate?
 
2014-07-08 11:42:06 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


In the Saint Reagan edition.
 
2014-07-08 11:42:17 AM  

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?


Also this is weird because my name is Alex and I once dated a Samantha (Sam for short, of course)
 
2014-07-08 11:42:40 AM  

Prince George: I think Sesame Street has made it clear you're a sick farker if you feel the need to assign any sexual orientation to a children's puppet.


Nonsense. Many muppets have clear and obvious sexual orientations. The central relationship in the muppetverse (Kermit and Piggy) is clearly and obviously heterosexual. Oscar the Grouch has a girlfriend , Grundgetta.  Even the ever-present chickenfarker, Gonzo,  is only interested in female chickens. And while they're not muppets, Sesame Street characters Maria and Luis got married when the actress Sonia Manzano got pregnant in the late eighties. Hell, Pepe the Prawn is unabashedly, and hilariously heterosexual

They own it they made it clear they want nothing to do with the debate either way so no I wouldn't make your cake.

The only reason CTW refused to take a clear stand is because it's a controversial issue, and too many small minded bigots would stop watching the show and start writing angry letters if they came out and admitted that E&B are gay.

 How about a Luke and Han cake?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-07-08 11:42:54 AM  

Chongo79: "Why, hello there Mr. Atheist baker. Could I have a cake for my son's first communion?"


Why yes you can, because me making a cake for you in no way effects what I personally believe.
 
2014-07-08 11:42:56 AM  

Magorn: how hard would it have been for the bakery to simply mumble something about copyright laws and refuse to make the cake on those grounds instead? Dumbasses


Incredibly difficult. You see, that doesn't allow them to wave their religious schlong in everybody's faces and cram their beliefs down the throats of their customers.
 
2014-07-08 11:43:12 AM  
Legit question here...

In the US, if a bakery refuses to make a wedding cake for gay marriage, yet will still serve gay customers, is that considered illegal? I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers, but if they just refuse to make a certain kind of cake, is that illegal?
 
2014-07-08 11:43:43 AM  

MBooda: Greenstein's still refuses to bake a pork and oyster cake for me.


Funny that you mention that. In this article about the bakery in this story, there's a picture of their storefront... and their signs advertising bacon sandwiches.
 
2014-07-08 11:44:32 AM  
Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?

Do you really want to be in business serving people that you hate?


No, they don't. That's why they won't make it. C'mon, man!
 
2014-07-08 11:44:43 AM  

Elliot8654: So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?


Probably so.  Same as the difference between requesting "I love Jesus" vs "I love Satan."  I sure they'd refuse the second.  And it wouldn't be on the news or in a courtroom.
 
2014-07-08 11:45:15 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Their reasoning was they won't bake a cake for a gay couple.


You're making that up.

scottydoesntknow: If the Bert/Ernie picture had nothing to do with it and the cake instead said "Bill and Bob Forever" do you think the company would've baked it? Of course not.


Probably not, but that's not the point either.  Keep trying though.

Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"


Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.
 
2014-07-08 11:45:48 AM  

machoprogrammer: I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers


Depends on the place. Gayness isn't legally protected nationwide like blackness is.
 
2014-07-08 11:45:52 AM  

ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Probably so.  Same as the difference between requesting "I love Jesus" vs "I love Satan."  I sure they'd refuse the second.  And it wouldn't be on the news or in a courtroom.


... And if the request was for a cake saying "I love Allah" and they refused?
 
2014-07-08 11:45:53 AM  

machoprogrammer: Legit question here...

In the US, if a bakery refuses to make a wedding cake for gay marriage, yet will still serve gay customers, is that considered illegal? I know it is illegal if they refuse to serve gay (or black or whatever) customers, but if they just refuse to make a certain kind of cake, is that illegal?


If they refused to make wedding cakes for all couples, no. They are not discriminating against a specific group of people.

If they only refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples simply because they're a gay couple, then yes that's discrimination.
 
2014-07-08 11:46:07 AM  

GoldSpider: ReverendJasen: They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

You aren't missing anything.  This is a point that many in this thread are simply refusing to acknowledge because it castrates most of their argument.


Please explain what their religion is against then. Sesame Street characters who are not married (gay or otherwise)? Or customers who are gay?

These are the only two relevant factors in this case.
 
2014-07-08 11:47:03 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: HoustonNick: I don't have to support your gay or straight marriage, but I have the right to choose what I do and do not support.

Your rights end where your "Open for business" sign begins. Just suck it up and make the cake, Nancy. You're only making yourself look bad otherwise.


But what about the  the birthday cake for the little boy named adolf h ?  Who here wants to support that daddy a-holes rights?
 
2014-07-08 11:47:34 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: HoustonNick: We should stop trying to force businesses to support something they don't believe in



GO


fark



YOURSELF


If they refused to serve them all, you might have a point.
 
2014-07-08 11:47:38 AM  

Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?


Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.
 
2014-07-08 11:47:50 AM  
They should close their bakery and start a "church" with themselves as paid clergy -- that sells cakes as a permanent fundraising venture.

/ would be much easier to defend whatever religious views you want
// bonus: no taxes!
 
2014-07-08 11:48:10 AM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"

Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.


Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense. Or if I thought of the cake as the company owner's first born son. Or if I thought of the cake as the pair of pants you must be wearing on your head to attempt such a strained analogy.
 
2014-07-08 11:49:31 AM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


ct.politicomments.com
 
2014-07-08 11:50:35 AM  

Farking Canuck: These are the only two relevant factors in this case.


There's also the matter of the text saying "support gay marriage" that was requested by the customer, and spelled out quite clearly in the article, should you care to read it.
 
2014-07-08 11:50:40 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The only reason CTW refused to take a clear stand is because it's a controversial issue, and too many small minded bigots would stop watching the show and start writing angry letters if they came out and admitted that E&B are gay.


No they took a stand because they are puppets aimed at children not a political show.  They can show 2 people of the same sex living together without discussing their sex life,  Children will relate to it as it fits what they see around them.
 
2014-07-08 11:53:02 AM  
cdn-www.i-am-bored.com

peacemoonbeam.typepad.com

static3.beanscdn.co.uk
 
2014-07-08 11:53:24 AM  
Welcome to a month of TF to a couple posters here.
 
2014-07-08 11:53:36 AM  

GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.


So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?
 
2014-07-08 11:53:47 AM  

GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.


Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a Jewish custom t-shirt maker who printed shirts with swastikas on them for a group of white supremacists. I don't think he endorsed the systematic genocide of his own people. And if somebody really thought I endorsed white supremacy because I treated a white supremacist the same as I would treat any other customers, that's their fault, not mine.
 
2014-07-08 11:55:15 AM  

Deathfrogg: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?

When I was a little kid, I figured they were cousins or something. Hell, they slept in the same bed and everything just like I did when my cousins came over to visit. I slept in the same bed with my brother until I was 7.


Are you a gay puppet or Joe Flacco?
 
2014-07-08 11:56:00 AM  

Serious Black: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a Jewish custom t-shirt maker who printed shirts with swastikas on them for a group of white supremacists. I don't think he endorsed the systematic genocide of his own people. And if somebody really thought I endorsed white supremacy because I treated a white supremacist the same as I would treat any other customers, that's their fault, not mine.


GoldSpider's probably also concerned about the white restaurant owners who were forced to serve black patrons and were worried that their KKK friends might conclude that they were okay with desegregation.
 
2014-07-08 11:56:44 AM  

Elliot8654: Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?

But they clearly do wish to provide the service and make money, or they wouldn't run a bakery.


Simply running a business is not concent to a requirement that they must make every product related to the nature of their business.
 
2014-07-08 11:57:56 AM  

Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?


Sure. No one is stopping you from blaming then. You're free to hold that opinion all you want
 
2014-07-08 11:59:18 AM  

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?

Sure. No one is stopping you from blaming then. You're free to hold that opinion all you want


You wouldn't even be the first. There's whole groups of lobbyist that hold that opinion.
 
2014-07-08 11:59:22 AM  
 
2014-07-08 12:00:16 PM  

Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.


You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?
 
2014-07-08 12:00:33 PM  

GoldSpider: xtech: all these butthurt 'waaah waah i want someone to bake me a cake who doesnt like me' apologists comparing this to the slavery movement.. ROFL.. wow....

And people who don't know what the word "discrimination" means.


move that goalpost more!

good on the crappy bakery for telling the activist to bugger off. what they SHOULD have done is made the cake, but done so in such a way that its not legible.
 
2014-07-08 12:03:11 PM  

Teresaol31: Funny, there was a time when I thought that the fundamentalist "Bible Baptists" that went on and on about Bert and Ernie being a gay couple were just strange. (The same group was anti-vax way before anyone saw Jenny McCarthy naked because they thought that letting the health department give your kid a shot for any reason was a way for the kid to get secretly RFID chipped as the mark of the beast, I shiat you not!)

Ask a kid watching Sesame Street who Bert and Ernie are, they will tell you that they are friends who live in the same house.  They are pbviously based on the play/movie/television show the Odd Couple and represent the Felix and Oscar of Sesame Street, showing that two people with clearly different hobbies and priorities can learn to get along and live together.  They are not the Steve and Steve gay married couple (not that there is a thing wrong with that concept, but honestly, if you watch Sesame Street, you will notice that they simply do not address adult interpersonal relationships at all.  They, unlike the perverts that come up with this nonsense, don't think it's appropriate to discuss those things with preschoolers.  Whether it's Bert and Ernie being gay, or the notion that Gordon might take up with a white Mrs., they simply do not discuss such matters on the show!)

As for Bert and Ernie being gay, they don't even sleep in the same bed, so it's all in your heads morons.  Get your filthy minds out of the gutter you sex obsessed theist extremists!  Geez.  Not every damn thing in life has to be about sex, especially a show designed to teach kids preschool skills like getting along, telling the truth, and recognizing colors, shapes, letters, numbers.  Oh, yeah, I guess that would be offended to people that still think that people should isolate themselves from anyone different and only need enough education to read their Bibles!



they were named after the cop and the cab driver on "it's a wonderful life"  apparently jim henson was a big fan of the movie.
 
2014-07-08 12:03:33 PM  

genner: Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?

Sure. No one is stopping you from blaming then. You're free to hold that opinion all you want

You wouldn't even be the first. There's whole groups of lobbyist that hold that opinion.


Another group of lobbyists got a law passed that specifically exempts gun manufacturers from any such blame
 
2014-07-08 12:04:11 PM  
What's all this about Valerie Bertnernie eating a gay cake?
 
2014-07-08 12:04:28 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.

You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?


Hey, GoldSpider...
d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net
That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?
 
2014-07-08 12:04:57 PM  
Uh, why not just get a Bert & Ernie cake....

Then go home and write "support gay marriage" on it with icing?

Well, with icing, or you could...you know...be creative...wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

/For the record: Bert AND Ernie are not gay, just Bert.
//If you want to support NAMBLA, then you get a Bert and Ernie cake.
 
2014-07-08 12:05:14 PM  

bestsportnascar: I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?


Couple of points:

1. Yes, I would be just as ok with a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views as I would be with a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build an Islamic Rainbow Alliance Queermosque because of their views -- no more and no less.  Whether or not I agree with the views isn't the criterion for me, and I submit it shouldn't be the criterion for anyone.

2. I'm not sure if you're giving this terrible analogy because you don't see the difference, but there is a difference between boycotting a business (which is more or less the scenario you gave), and a business refusing to serve a (would-be) paying customer.

3. You do understand that boycotts are perfectly legal, right?  If my gay cousin wants to boycott Chik-Fil-A, she has the right to do so.  If my fundamentalist neighbor wants to boycott Ben and Jerry's, he's free to do so as well.

4. In the USA at least, there is the concept of  public accommodations.  A bakery is a public accommodation.  IANAL but I don't think the laws regarding public accommodation would apply to a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A.
 
2014-07-08 12:05:25 PM  

stuffy: Lesbian cake? (NSFW)


It's a trick, lesbians eat pie.
 
2014-07-08 12:05:50 PM  

Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"

Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.

Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense. Or if I thought of the cake as the company owner's first born son. Or if I thought of the cake as the pair of pants you must be wearing on your head to attempt such a strained analogy.


Is the cake not a representation of the business? It is the product that they present to the public to show their business. It is mountains different than a first born son or a pair of pants. I get that you were going for ridiculous to show what you think of the argument, but come on.

A cake from a bakery is an edible business card with which the bakery promotes their product. It is more akin to letterhead than anything else, especially the two "analogies" that you tossed out without giving so much as a thought to the person who suggested it. People will see a cake and, if well made and tasty, ask who made it. The cake is just as much of an advertisement of the business as a flyer or TV commercial.
 
2014-07-08 12:05:53 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: However, if I were a store owner that sold yoga pants, and I got lots of business from fatties, I damn sure would stay stocked up on fatty yoga pants.


I think you just confirmed my "silly argument"
Free markets usually works to spread freedom to the most people.  In this case you theoretically didn't want to sell to minority "Fat Chicks" but the market forced you to swallow your pride and sell to them anyway.  Freedom isn't free, in this case it cost you eye bleach.   A business that is open to the public is not the same as a Public service provided by the government.  How long do you think Starbucks would last if they decided that your coffee had to match your skin tone.  If you are white you get cream and sugar, Blacks get it straight up.  Yeah they wouldn't last more than a month, problem solved, no need for a new law forcing coffee freedom.  But if the city laws said only athletic red headed woman in skimpy swimsuits can use the public city funded pool, then that is wrong, and will not change until we change the law.  Once the law start forcing people to do stuff they don't want to do, then the government becomes a fascist state.  It doesn't matter if laws are forcing them to do the "right" thing.  One way to look at this is from the point of view of an engineer: Laws are positive feedback, thus will always be taken to the extreme.  Free markets are negative feedback so they generally damp out extreme behavior.
 
2014-07-08 12:06:25 PM  

xtech: GoldSpider: xtech: all these butthurt 'waaah waah i want someone to bake me a cake who doesnt like me' apologists comparing this to the slavery movement.. ROFL.. wow....

And people who don't know what the word "discrimination" means.

move that goalpost more!

good on the crappy bakery for telling the activist to bugger off. what they SHOULD have done is made the cake, but done so in such a way that its not legible.


Or consistently make a Mork and Mindy cake.
 
2014-07-08 12:07:05 PM  

ciberido: maxx2112: Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.



Problem solved.


The cross isn't tilted

/SMRT
 
2014-07-08 12:07:38 PM  

Elliot8654: So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?


Lots of people do.

Serious Black: Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a Jewish custom t-shirt maker who printed shirts with swastikas on them for a group of white supremacists.


As should be their CHOICE.  I'd say a Jew would be well within his/her rights to refuse to print such a message.

Theaetetus: GoldSpider's probably also concerned about the white restaurant owners who were forced to serve black patrons and were worried that their KKK friends might conclude that they were okay with desegregation.


Again, willful misunderstanding of "discrimination" and how it applies in this case.

xtech: move that goalpost more!


I was agreeing with you.
 
2014-07-08 12:08:00 PM  

Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.

You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?

Hey, GoldSpider...
[d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net image 556x313]
That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?


The terms of service of the various parties involved disagrees with the point you're trying to make. Though I suppose that the bakery could have put small text on the cake under the marriage equality slogan. Would that make you happy?
 
2014-07-08 12:09:26 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"

Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.

Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense. Or if I thought of the cake as the company owner's first born son. Or if I thought of the cake as the pair of pants you must be wearing on your head to attempt such a strained analogy.

Is the cake not a representation of the business? It is the product that they present to the public to show their business. It is mountains different than a first born son or a pair of pants. I get that you were going for ridiculous to show what you think of the argument, but come on.

A cake from a bakery is an edible business card with which the bakery promotes their product. It is more akin to letterhead than anything else, especially the two "analogies" that you tossed out without giving so much as a thought to the person who suggested it. People will see a cake and, if well made and tasty, ask who made it. The cake is just as much of an advertisement of the business as a flyer or TV commercial.


If their cake tastes awful, it's a sign the cake shop sucks.

If the cake says something you don't like, it's a sign the guy who ordered the cake believes it, not the cake shop.

You do realize that the same t shirt manufacturers
make both Democrat and Republican shirts! How can they clearly believe both parties at the same time???
 
2014-07-08 12:09:34 PM  
Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?  It seems more like a NAMBLA deal than a gay marriage deal to me.

I don't really care much about the debate either way.  It's not my business.
 
2014-07-08 12:09:45 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Deedeemarz: Then I suggest they make it themselves, have one delivered, or move. If you choose to live in an area where your options are that limited then I suppose you better learn to make do with what's available. Still not a reason to impose upon a local business person who isn't interested in having your business whatever the reason. If enough other people think the baker is wrong, then his business will suffer.

I'll let The Cap speak on this suggestion

[static.comicvine.com image 850x600]


That comic actually works both ways. :-P
 
2014-07-08 12:09:58 PM  
You guys are missing the entire point of this discussion.

WHAT KIND OF CAKE WAS IT?!

/Ice cream? Please say ice cream!
 
2014-07-08 12:10:00 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I don't think that providing a commercial service that you provide to the general public is "endorsing a particular viewpoint that you disagree with,"

Think of the cake as company letterhead, and it might make more sense to you.  Probably not though.

Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense. Or if I thought of the cake as the company owner's first born son. Or if I thought of the cake as the pair of pants you must be wearing on your head to attempt such a strained analogy.

Is the cake not a representation of the business? It is the product that they present to the public to show their business. It is mountains different than a first born son or a pair of pants. I get that you were going for ridiculous to show what you think of the argument, but come on.


No, it's not, because they make custom cakes as requested by the customer. Specifically, they don't design cakes - they make sheet cakes and print an image on the face. It doesn't include any creative input from them.

A cake from a bakery is an edible business card with which the bakery promotes their product.

Not if the cake has no identifying marks on it and is indistinguishable from the sheet cake you can get at a grocery.

It is more akin to letterhead than anything else, especially the two "analogies" that you tossed out without giving so much as a thought to the person who suggested it.

Not at all. A better comparison would be to say that the companies who make printer paper are making company letterhead - since it's actually, you know, letterhead - and say that they explicitly endorse any message that anyone prints on their paper. No one would believe that to be true, just as no one believes GoldSpider endorses gay marriage because of that colorful banner that appeared on his personally-owned and operated computer screen a few minutes ago.
 
2014-07-08 12:10:45 PM  

Theaetetus: That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right?


Deliberately misunderstanding/misrepresenting a point doesn't make you appear smarter.  It makes you appear disingenuous.
 
2014-07-08 12:11:05 PM  

Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?

But they clearly do wish to provide the service and make money, or they wouldn't run a bakery.

Simply running a business is not concent to a requirement that they must make every product related to the nature of their business.


You're right no it doesn't. However, when we create a bifurcated model in commerce, such as blacks can only go these stores, or Jewsish money is only welcome at these sorts of stores, it creates a massive disruption in commerce. The market now has to replicate goods services that do the exact same thing and creates a situation in which money is not going to most efficient means of producing goods and services, but rather towards an increasingly over-competitive and unstable market, in which artificial exclusion  hampers the ability of all groups to spend their money on needed/wanted goods and services.

 The principle at play is that money is money, a business owner is well within there rights to refuse the business of a disruption to commerce, say like a unruly customer, or someone who refuses to pay for the good or service at the agreed upon time, or baking something like a penis cake because the creation and sale of such a good is obscene and graphic in nature (internationally so) and may create undue disruption in the sale of other goods.
 
2014-07-08 12:11:06 PM  

Theaetetus: That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?


Man, that's a tortured analogy, especially for someone trying to tear down what they consider to be a tortured analogy.

In GoldSpider's case, you have the business' products being specifically created to display a set message that cannot be changed or deleted on a whim in contravention to the beliefs of those that created it.

In your case, you have business' product being used to display an image, one of many it is capable of displaying at any given time. An image that was not created by the makers of the computer or any of the other myriad individuals or businesses that you listed. It was created by another, disseminated by you, and displayed without control.

How could you possibly conflate the two is beyond me.
 
2014-07-08 12:11:13 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.


I totally agree.  The bakery was torally out of bounds when they refused to make that cake with Obama blowing George Soros while Michelle takes him from behind with her strap on.
 
2014-07-08 12:11:29 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: GoldSpider's probably also concerned about the white restaurant owners who were forced to serve black patrons and were worried that their KKK friends might conclude that they were okay with desegregation.

Again, willful misunderstanding of "discrimination" and how it applies in this case.


Pro-tip: merely insisting that everyone is misunderstanding the point doesn't actually convince anyone. You have to at least provide some argument as to what you believe the proper understanding is.
 
2014-07-08 12:12:47 PM  

Theaetetus: Pro-tip: merely insisting that everyone is misunderstanding the point doesn't actually convince anyone.


Oh I'm sure you understand it just fine.  You're simply being obtuse and disingenuous.
 
2014-07-08 12:12:58 PM  

Mad Scientist: Do you really want to eat food prepared by people who hate you?


So, I'm at risk every night?


/married
//it's a joke son
//slashies LIVE!
 
2014-07-08 12:13:05 PM  

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.

You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?

Hey, GoldSpider...
[d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net image 556x313]
That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?

The terms of service of the various parties involved disagrees with the point you're trying to make. Though I suppose that the bakery could have put small text on the cake under the marriage equality slogan. Would that make you happy?


Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?
 
2014-07-08 12:13:18 PM  

mainstreet62: You guys are missing the entire point of this discussion.

WHAT KIND OF CAKE WAS IT?!

/Ice cream? Please say ice cream!


I like ice cream cake. Cheaper cakes, like the ones you buy at the supermarket, are awful. The frosting tends to be way too sweet for my liking. I know fark all about cakes, so maybe someone here can help me be a more discerning cake shopper. What kind of frosting is it that isn't the fluffy super-sweet stuff on seemingly most cakes? I like the richer, more creamy or buttery type frosting. That's the good shiat, and I want to know what it's called.
 
2014-07-08 12:13:25 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

I totally agree.  The bakery was torally out of bounds when they refused to make that cake with Obama blowing George Soros while Michelle takes him from behind with her strap on.


You forgot Hillary riding Biden who was holding Michelle's reins with his teeth
 
2014-07-08 12:13:59 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Pro-tip: merely insisting that everyone is misunderstanding the point doesn't actually convince anyone.

Oh I'm sure you understand it just fine.  You're simply being obtuse and disingenuous.


Not at all. I have no clue what you think discrimination means, since you apparently think custom-printed sheet cakes are corporate letterhead.
 
2014-07-08 12:14:52 PM  

kling_klang_bed: [cdn-www.i-am-bored.com image 480x381]


img.fark.net

Is Bigbird rubbing one out back there?
 
2014-07-08 12:14:54 PM  

Serious Black: MonoChango: Serious Black: MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

Forcing someone to do something that is against their belief system is bad. Even if their belief is wierd, stupid or just something you just don't like. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm not going to tell a baker he can't be stupid. Nor am I going to tell gay guys they can't go have fun doing whatever they want to do. The main point here is that Burt and Ernie are NOT gay. Two guys that sleep in the same room are room mates and anyone who turns them into that just make a political point should just go DIAF. Quit screwing up my childhood!

I run a deli. I think women who are on their periods are poisonous and risk ruining society. I want to force women to reveal their cooters to me or a designated representative and prove that they are not gushing blood out of their twat before I allow them to come inside. Do you support my position?

"As long as it doesn't hurt anyone,
" Sexual assult would not qualify

I didn't say I or my designated representative would have to shove something inside their vagina to get the necessary proof. Women just have to reveal their crotches and provide visual evidence that they aren't bleeding profusely. That doesn't count as sexual assault because there is no physical contact. What's the harm in just looking?


I'm no lawyer but forcing someone to expose themselves to you is usually frowned upon in this country.
 
2014-07-08 12:15:03 PM  

nekom: So let's get this gay marriage thing going!  Shall we call our elected representatives?  No, how about we go to the media to present our side?  NO!  Wait, I got it!  We'll get a cake made!  BRILLIANT!


Considering that we're posting in Fark about a news article about the issue, I'd say that they are more savvy that you think.
 
2014-07-08 12:15:48 PM  

Pubby: Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: Frank N Stein: Elliot8654: ReverendJasen: Elliot8654: They aren't doing exactly what they advertise they do, because they don't like the subject matter.

They're allowed to.  Many bakeries won't make you a penis cake for a bachelorette party, and some will.  They're not refusing to serve women, they're refusing to make that one product they find distasteful.
Unless I missed something, this bakery is not refusing to serve gays--they're refusing to put a specific design on a cake.

So if I order a cake that says "Dave and Rebecca forever" I am good, but if it says "bill and Jims love will never die" or maybe "to the love of Amanda and sharon"?

Ooh! I wanna order a cake labeled "Alex and Sam's wedding:2014". See if they can tell if it is for a day mens, lesbians, or straight couples cake!

It's at the baker's discretion. Why should they be obligated to provide you a service/product that they do not wish to provide? Furthermore, why not just go to another bakery?

But they clearly do wish to provide the service and make money, or they wouldn't run a bakery.

Simply running a business is not concent to a requirement that they must make every product related to the nature of their business.

You're right no it doesn't. However, when we create a bifurcated model in commerce, such as blacks can only go these stores, or Jewsish money is only welcome at these sorts of stores, it creates a massive disruption in commerce. The market now has to replicate goods services that do the exact same thing and creates a situation in which money is not going to most efficient means of producing goods and services, but rather towards an increasingly over-competitive and unstable market, in which artificial exclusion  hampers the ability of all groups to spend their money on needed/wanted goods and services.

 The principle at play is that money is money, a business owner is well within there rights to refuse the business of a disruption to commerce, say like a u ...


I agree that outright refusing service for someone based on sexual orientation, race, religion etc is wrong. However, the issue here is the product catered, not the service in general. If the same baker refused to make a "WHITE PRIDE WORLD WIDE" cake, that doesn't mean he's discriminating against white people.
 
2014-07-08 12:15:59 PM  

Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Yes, if I thought of the cake as company letterhead, then it might make more sense.

You mean you don't understand how someone might conclude that you endorse a message you print on a cake you sold, in a box (presumably) with your company's name?

Hey, GoldSpider...
[d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net image 556x313]
That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?


stop responding to the bath salt troll guys aka Theaetetus
 
2014-07-08 12:16:01 PM  

Theaetetus: No, it's not, because they make custom cakes as requested by the customer. Specifically, they don't design cakes - they make sheet cakes and print an image on the face. It doesn't include any creative input from them.


Not according to the pictures on their website.

Theaetetus: Not if the cake has no identifying marks on it and is indistinguishable from the sheet cake you can get at a grocery.


So when it comes in a box that clearly says "Asher's Baking Company..."

Theaetetus: just as no one believes GoldSpider endorses gay marriage because of that colorful banner that appeared on his personally-owned and operated computer screen a few minutes ago.


Probably because no one but you conflates creating an image with displaying an image that you did not create.
 
2014-07-08 12:16:15 PM  

MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: However, if I were a store owner that sold yoga pants, and I got lots of business from fatties, I damn sure would stay stocked up on fatty yoga pants.

I think you just confirmed my "silly argument"
Free markets usually works to spread freedom to the most people.  In this case you theoretically didn't want to sell to minority "Fat Chicks" but the market forced you to swallow your pride and sell to them anyway.  Freedom isn't free, in this case it cost you eye bleach.   A business that is open to the public is not the same as a Public service provided by the government.  How long do you think Starbucks would last if they decided that your coffee had to match your skin tone.  If you are white you get cream and sugar, Blacks get it straight up.  Yeah they wouldn't last more than a month, problem solved, no need for a new law forcing coffee freedom.  But if the city laws said only athletic red headed woman in skimpy swimsuits can use the public city funded pool, then that is wrong, and will not change until we change the law.  Once the law start forcing people to do stuff they don't want to do, then the government becomes a fascist state.  It doesn't matter if laws are forcing them to do the "right" thing.  One way to look at this is from the point of view of an engineer: Laws are positive feedback, thus will always be taken to the extreme.  Free markets are negative feedback so they generally damp out extreme behavior.


word salad.  I have no idea what you're getting at, and no, I don't even want to dissect this with you.
 
2014-07-08 12:16:41 PM  

xtech: stop responding to the bath salt troll guys aka Theaetetus


"Bath Salt Troll"?  I want to know more.
 
2014-07-08 12:16:42 PM  

ciberido: In the USA at least, there is the concept of  public accommodations.  A bakery is a public accommodation.  IANAL but I don't think the laws regarding public accommodation would apply to a contractor refusing to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A.


To be clear, I realize that TFA was about a bakery in the UK, not in the USA.  Perhaps someone can comment on whether or not the UK has a legal concept similar to our "public accommodation."
 
2014-07-08 12:17:13 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: That just appeared on your computer screen. Therefore, your computer manufacture must endorse that message, right? And, for that matter, so must Drew since it's here. And  you own the computer, so therefore  you must endorse it too. In fact, let's just hold that anyone who is in any way related to the transmission of that message - from the ISPs to the manufacturers of the copper wire on the poles to everyone who ever touched a single capacitor used in either of our computers - endorses that message. That makes sense, right?

Man, that's a tortured analogy, especially for someone trying to tear down what they consider to be a tortured analogy.


... yes, that's the point. It is as equally tortured an analogy as claiming a cake is corporate letterhead. No reasonable person could agree with the statement I made. Glad you agree.

In GoldSpider's case, you have the business' products being specifically created to display a set message that cannot be changed or deleted on a whim in contravention to the beliefs of those that created it.

You can't "change or delete on a whim" that post I made, regardless of your beliefs, nor can your computer manufacturer. Neither you nor they have any responsibility for the content... you know, like a cake manufacturer who prints a customer-requested image on the face of a cake.
Kinda like this:
In your case, you have business' product being used to display an image, one of many it is capable of displaying at any given time. An image that was not created by the makers of the computer or any of the other myriad individuals or businesses that you listed. It was created by another, disseminated by you, and displayed without control.
 
2014-07-08 12:17:18 PM  

Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?


I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?
 
2014-07-08 12:18:11 PM  

Frank N Stein: What kind of frosting is it that isn't the fluffy super-sweet stuff on seemingly most cakes? I like the richer, more creamy or buttery type frosting. That's the good shiat, and I want to know what it's called.


Buttercream.
But you may also like carrot cake frosting, with its cream cheese base, for the same reason.
 
2014-07-08 12:18:33 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Here's a thought....if you have such issues with other peoples' lives PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T OPEN A BUSINESS THAT IS PUBLIC.

STFU bakers, and close your damn doors then.

I totally agree.  The bakery was torally out of bounds when they refused to make that cake with Obama blowing George Soros while Michelle takes him from behind with her strap on.


of course, because that's exactly the same.

piss off
 
2014-07-08 12:18:34 PM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: That's the other thing that bugs me about the gay community.  Where is their 'tolerance' for those who don't agree with their lifestyle?

Tolerance works both ways.


Tolerance of intolerance is no virtue.
 
2014-07-08 12:18:43 PM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


When did he say anything about sex, other than telling an adulterer not to do it again?
 
2014-07-08 12:19:15 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The only reason CTW refused to take a clear stand is because it's a controversial issue

Tom_Slick: No they took a stand because they are puppets aimed at children not a political show.


Horse Hockey. "Taking a stand" would have been "No, they're not gay, they both like girls" or "yes they're gay, deal with it"

Given that many muppets have a clear and obvious heterosexual orientation, saying "They have no sexual orientation, they're puppets" is the exact opposite of "taking a stand" - it's a complete cop-out in the hopes of avoiding the issue so they don't have to deal with the small minded anger of a bunch of knuckledragging bigots, or the scornful derision of gay activists.
 

Tom_Slick: They can show 2 people of the same sex living together without discussing their sex life

. Children will relate to it as it fits what they see around them.


They can also show 2 people of the same sex living together without discussing their sex life. Children will relate to it as it fits what they see around them.

But what's interesting here is the way you  switched from talking about "sexual orientation" to talking about "sex life", because I think we can all agree that talking about anyone's sex life on SS is inappropriate, regardless of orientation. Do you disagree? But that little switcheroo is pretty common in discussion with people who are opposed to "normalizing" gay relationships. Are you one of those people, Tom_Slick?
 
2014-07-08 12:19:26 PM  

Theaetetus: I have no clue what you think discrimination means


Perhaps you should read my posts upthread then, if you're genuinely curious.
 
2014-07-08 12:19:45 PM  

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?


I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?
 
2014-07-08 12:20:48 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I have no clue what you think discrimination means

Perhaps you should read my posts upthread then, if you're genuinely curious.


I did. Didn't see one definition there. Maybe you're referring to another thread?
 
2014-07-08 12:20:56 PM  

MonoChango: Satan's Bunny Slippers: However, if I were a store owner that sold yoga pants, and I got lots of business from fatties, I damn sure would stay stocked up on fatty yoga pants.

I think you just confirmed my "silly argument"
Free markets usually works to spread freedom to the most people.  In this case you theoretically didn't want to sell to minority "Fat Chicks" but the market forced you to swallow your pride and sell to them anyway.  Freedom isn't free, in this case it cost you eye bleach.   A business that is open to the public is not the same as a Public service provided by the government.  How long do you think Starbucks would last if they decided that your coffee had to match your skin tone.  If you are white you get cream and sugar, Blacks get it straight up.  Yeah they wouldn't last more than a month, problem solved, no need for a new law forcing coffee freedom.  But if the city laws said only athletic red headed woman in skimpy swimsuits can use the public city funded pool, then that is wrong, and will not change until we change the law.  Once the law start forcing people to do stuff they don't want to do, then the government becomes a fascist state.  It doesn't matter if laws are forcing them to do the "right" thing.  One way to look at this is from the point of view of an engineer: Laws are positive feedback, thus will always be taken to the extreme.  Free markets are negative feedback so they generally damp out extreme behavior.


Generally I agree with this statement... The counter to that though is of course are protected classes of people. If a business puts up a sign that says "Whites Only" they won't go out of business, as was the case 60 years ago in the south. But as a nation we decided that discrimination of people based on race, sex, or religion was illegal and for damn good reason. Until the nation protects sexual orientation the same way it protects race, sex, and religion, then we are going to see more and more of this. But gays are SO far disadvantaged in this fight, I don't think they will become protected for at least another 25 years and that's ONLY if we stop moving towards a theocracy as a nation.
 
2014-07-08 12:22:12 PM  

Deathfrogg: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Am I the only one who always assumed that Bert and Ernie were brothers?

When I was a little kid, I figured they were cousins or something. Hell, they slept in the same bed and everything just like I did when my cousins came over to visit. I slept in the same bed with my brother until I was 7.


Go on...
 
2014-07-08 12:22:37 PM  

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?


That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.
 
2014-07-08 12:22:59 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: No, it's not, because they make custom cakes as requested by the customer. Specifically, they don't design cakes - they make sheet cakes and print an image on the face. It doesn't include any creative input from them.

Not according to the pictures on their website.


According to another article, this was the picture that the customers wanted printed on a sheet cake:
cdn3.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Theaetetus: Not if the cake has no identifying marks on it and is indistinguishable from the sheet cake you can get at a grocery.

So when it comes in a box that clearly says "Asher's Baking Company..."


Ah, so you agree that the  box may be corporate letterhead, but not the  cake?

Theaetetus: just as no one believes GoldSpider endorses gay marriage because of that colorful banner that appeared on his personally-owned and operated computer screen a few minutes ago.

Probably because no one but you conflates creating an image with displaying an image that you did not create.


And no reasonable person would conflate printing a customer-requested image on a sheet cake with corporate letterhead.
 
2014-07-08 12:23:09 PM  

highwayrun: soporific: maxx2112: Queers can't get a cake.   Nazis can't get a cake.  Therefore, queers are Nazis . . . or something.

Now I really want to see a child named Judas Iscariot. (And it works for a boy or a girl.) Or perhaps Bennedict Arnold.

/because I apparently hate children today
//at least we're not naming a boy Sue
///let's name a boy Sue

A family friend had an informal contest and the winner would win the ostensible right to name her baby. My entry, little Darth Lebron Osama bin Nelson, didn't win and she went with my brother's suggestion, Garrett.


assets.vg247.com

Well, he may be destined for a life of crime, but at least he has a good chance of breaking out of prison.
 
2014-07-08 12:24:04 PM  
Frank N Stein:
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

Because they did? Maybe try reading the articles.
The councillor, who hosted the event during his term as mayor of North Down, said another bakery in Bangor stepped in and accepted the cake order.

Moreover, it's not the customer suing the bakery:

The County Antrim firm could face legal action from the Equality Commission.

But please keep talking out your ass. It lets us all know where your brain is.
 
2014-07-08 12:24:21 PM  

doubled99: Except that being gay is not a "lifestyle." It's who a person is. So, if you love someone, you have to love all of them, even if that means that you are accepting that a part of them is not what you hoped for.


Oh, is that the rule?


Yes. Love someone=love them. I expect you to love your kid/brother/sister/niece/nephew/best friend/whoever even if they turn out to be gay. If you can't handle that, you do not love them. Get it?
 
2014-07-08 12:24:25 PM  

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.


They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?
 
2014-07-08 12:25:23 PM  

GoldSpider: xtech: stop responding to the bath salt troll guys aka Theaetetus

"Bath Salt Troll"?  I want to know more.


I think xtech was saying that he did bath salts and sees trolls everywhere now.
 
2014-07-08 12:25:43 PM  
First they came for the gay cakes, and I did not speak out - because I prefer pie.
 
2014-07-08 12:26:12 PM  

Theaetetus: I did. Didn't see one definition there. Maybe you're referring to another thread?


I've explained on several posts here that this is not a case of discrimination, because the bakery did not refuse service based on the customer's identity in a protected demographic.  Indeed there's been no mention of the customer's sexual orientation, and I suspect that the Bakery would refuse to print the message regardless of whether the customer was gay or straight.

Now if you're going to argue that holding certain political viewpoints puts you in a protected class, I'm afraid there's no point in continuing the discussion.
 
2014-07-08 12:26:21 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: In GoldSpider's case, you have the business' products being specifically created to display a set message that cannot be changed or deleted on a whim in contravention to the beliefs of those that created it.


So? I don't think making a cake and writing a message on it like "Don and James 4 Ever" means I necessarily support their being married.
 
2014-07-08 12:27:07 PM  

Theaetetus: You can't "change or delete on a whim" that post I made, regardless of your beliefs, nor can your computer manufacturer. Neither you nor they have any responsibility for the content... you know, like a cake manufacturer who prints a customer-requested image on the face of a cake.


Are you really suggesting that a content creator has no responsibility for the content that they create?

And while I cannot change or delete your post (due to me lacking administrative or moderator privileges on this site), others can. Others that are responsible for the content on this site who have deemed certain things to be anathema to the smooth operation of their business. One might call those "beliefs."
 
2014-07-08 12:27:10 PM  
Shows you how backwards the UK is that a private business may be forced to do something they don't want to do.

Pretty tragic.
 
2014-07-08 12:27:20 PM  
Well, the religious right's efforts to block gay marriage are being overturned state by state on an almost weekly basis. Now all they can do is fight for bakers' rights. They lost the battle long ago, now they're just limping along. Good riddance.

(Yes, I am fully aware that this particular example comes from the UK.)
 
2014-07-08 12:28:40 PM  

genner: Gaylord Fister: Also, the bible mentions homosexuality only twice, but shellfish eight times. I bet you these hypocritical zombie worshippers wouldn't mind making a cake with a shrimp on it.

It mentions homosexuality  13 times and says shellfish is fine the last time it mentions it.


Not that it really matters, but that's highly debatable.  Several of the times the Bible "mentions homosexuality" it may be a mistranslation.  And don't get me started on Paul.

If you really care, there are a number of books and articles out there, some on the Internet, that go into the question at some length.  Suffice it to say that if you're only going by what an English translation says, without any regard to the original language and context, you're not in a position to argue about what the Bible does or does not really say.
 
2014-07-08 12:29:04 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I did. Didn't see one definition there. Maybe you're referring to another thread?

I've explained on several posts here that this is not a case of discrimination, because the bakery did not refuse service based on the customer's identity in a protected demographic.  Indeed there's been no mention of the customer's sexual orientation, and I suspect that the Bakery would refuse to print the message regardless of whether the customer was gay or straight.

Now if you're going to argue that holding certain political viewpoints puts you in a protected class, I'm afraid there's no point in continuing the discussion.


"We thought that was the end of it, but approximately six weeks later we received a letter from the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission's letter said that we had discriminated against the customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

on the grounds of  HIS SEXUAL ORIENTATION.
 
2014-07-08 12:29:08 PM  

Theaetetus: Ah, so you agree that the  box may be corporate letterhead, but not the  cake?


That's where you're splitting the hair?  Really?
 
2014-07-08 12:29:09 PM  

Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?


1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
img.fark.netimg.fark.netimg.fark.netimg.fark.net
img.fark.net img.fark.net

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.
 
2014-07-08 12:29:33 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I did. Didn't see one definition there. Maybe you're referring to another thread?

I've explained on several posts here that this is not a case of discrimination, because the bakery did not refuse service based on the customer's identity in a protected demographic.  Indeed there's been no mention of the customer's sexual orientation, and I suspect that the Bakery would refuse to print the message regardless of whether the customer was gay or straight.

Now if you're going to argue that holding certain political viewpoints puts you in a protected class, I'm afraid there's no point in continuing the discussion.


Of course not. I'm arguing that the bakery assumed the customers had a particular sexual orientation and refused service on those grounds, just as they would likely have refused to create a "Bob and Jim 4Eva" cake. Contrary to your apparent belief, people are not required to prove their sexual orientation before they are protected from discrimination on those grounds.
 
2014-07-08 12:30:06 PM  
poseurs, i only do business with clones of myself, that way i know they have 100% the same ideals as i do
 
2014-07-08 12:30:36 PM  

browntimmy: How have these bigots not realized they're on the wrong side of history by now? They're okay knowing future generations will either be ashamed or laughing at them?


They think the same of us, except they imagine it will them up in Heaven laughing at us as we roast in Hell.  And they're less concerned about what future generations might think as they're expecting the Rapture to happen Any Day Now.
 
2014-07-08 12:30:42 PM  
Much as I support non-discrimination, I have to wonder if it can be applied to the subject matter of custom artwork.  i.e., if a bakery refuses to sell one of their standard designs that they have made a hundred times before to a same sex couple, sue the hell out of them.  If they refuse to make a wedding cake in the shape of two lesbians making out, that is a legitimate decision on the part of the artist.  If two men order a red and teal wedding cake, I think it would be entirely appropriate for the baker to gently suggest that they get someone who has been tested and proven not to be color blind review their wedding decor choices.

/One of the gay couple vs. bakery cases did in fact involve a red and teal wedding cake
//The color scheme was not the reason the baker refused to make it.
///In one out of sixteen gay male couples, both members will have some form of color blindness
 
2014-07-08 12:31:01 PM  

stpauler: "We thought that was the end of it, but approximately six weeks later we received a letter from the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission's letter said that we had discriminated against the customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

on the grounds of  HIS SEXUAL ORIENTATION.


That presumes that the business owners knew the sexual orientation of the customer.  I don't know about you, but I can't look at someone and know that they are gay.
 
2014-07-08 12:32:19 PM  

Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: I did. Didn't see one definition there. Maybe you're referring to another thread?

I've explained on several posts here that this is not a case of discrimination, because the bakery did not refuse service based on the customer's identity in a protected demographic.  Indeed there's been no mention of the customer's sexual orientation, and I suspect that the Bakery would refuse to print the message regardless of whether the customer was gay or straight.

Now if you're going to argue that holding certain political viewpoints puts you in a protected class, I'm afraid there's no point in continuing the discussion.

Of course not. I'm arguing that the bakery assumed the customers had a particular sexual orientation and refused service on those grounds, just as they would likely have refused to create a "Bob and Jim 4Eva" cake. Contrary to your apparent belief, people are not required to prove their sexual orientation before they are protected from discrimination on those grounds.


The article only mentions the business refused to make the Bert/Ernie cake with 'Support Gay Marriage' on it.  Without more evidence, we cannot assume they were refused because of their sexual orientation.
 
2014-07-08 12:32:27 PM  
It's Mathew Shepard all over again
 
2014-07-08 12:32:30 PM  

Muta: kling_klang_bed: [cdn-www.i-am-bored.com image 480x381]

[img.fark.net image 480x381]

Is Bigbird rubbing one out back there?


Either that, or ready to join in. Snuffalufigus would be the 'bear' in that whole deal, and definitely a top.
 
2014-07-08 12:32:33 PM  

stpauler: Frank N Stein:
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

Because they did? Maybe try reading the articles.
The councillor, who hosted the event during his term as mayor of North Down, said another bakery in Bangor stepped in and accepted the cake order.

Moreover, it's not the customer suing the bakery:

The County Antrim firm could face legal action from the Equality Commission.

But please keep talking out your ass. It lets us all know where your brain is.


So they went to another company and got the product that they wanted to, and the other bakery didn't have to make a product that they didn't want to. Why should the government be involved again?
 
2014-07-08 12:32:45 PM  

EvilEgg: Isn't a good rule of thumb to never let someone who hates you prepare your food?

/Ernie and Bert were not gay.
//Neither were Felix and Oscar who they were styled after.
\Not sure about the latter couple.


Bert and Ernie were all about getting rectally fisted. They refused to perform unless Henson or one of his crew had an arm shoved up their backside, all the way to the elbow. That's pretty gay, dude.
 
2014-07-08 12:32:58 PM  

Theaetetus: I'm arguing that the bakery assumed the customers had a particular sexual orientation and refused service on those grounds


That's also an assumption.
 
2014-07-08 12:33:04 PM  

Theaetetus: According to another article, this was the picture that the customers wanted printed on a sheet cake:


Would you just look at that obscene, depraved, immoral image they requested on a cake to be prepared by a family bakery?? I mean, how can this decent, family-owned bakery be expected to endorse and celebrate that sick, immoral lifestyle by baking such an abominable putrefaction? Won't somebody think of our children? Our families?
 
2014-07-08 12:33:07 PM  
I wonder if they would have denied that awesome Bears cake I got for my 7th birthday.
 
2014-07-08 12:33:11 PM  

Theaetetus: Ah, so you agree that the  box may be corporate letterhead, but not the  cake?


Must the cake carry a mark on it to denote that it came from a certain bakery in order to be an advertising medium? Or is word of mouth and understanding that the cake that came out of the box came from the same bakery as the box enough?

Theaetetus: According to another article, this was the picture that the customers wanted printed on a sheet cake:


So because one cake is "printed," the bakery makes no original cakes?

Theaetetus: And no reasonable person would conflate printing a customer-requested image on a sheet cake with corporate letterhead.


Good thing no one in this thread conflated the two. GoldSpider thinks that a cake, no matter what the image or design, is a representative advertisement of the bakery. And he's correct. You seem to think that it's a pair of pants or an unrelated image. I am having trouble finding any reasonableness in your replies.
 
2014-07-08 12:33:16 PM  

GoldSpider: stpauler: "We thought that was the end of it, but approximately six weeks later we received a letter from the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission's letter said that we had discriminated against the customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

on the grounds of  HIS SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

That presumes that the business owners knew the sexual orientation of the customer.  I don't know about you, but I can't look at someone and know that they are gay.


Luckily, one doesn't have to be gay to be discriminated against based on sexual orientation. Otherwise, what you are arguing would be totally stupid.
 
2014-07-08 12:34:14 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: You can't "change or delete on a whim" that post I made, regardless of your beliefs, nor can your computer manufacturer. Neither you nor they have any responsibility for the content... you know, like a cake manufacturer who prints a customer-requested image on the face of a cake.

Are you really suggesting that a content creator has no responsibility for the content that they create?


Are you really suggesting that someone who manufactures a product at someone's request explicitly endorses all of the beliefs of that someone?

And while I cannot change or delete your post (due to me lacking administrative or moderator privileges on this site), others can. Others that are responsible for the content on this site who have deemed certain things to be anathema to the smooth operation of their business. One might call those "beliefs."

... so you aresaying that all of the modmins and Drew must endorse whatever is posted here, because they can change or delete it? That Fark is their "corporate letterhead" so anything that appears on their site is their officially adopted belief?
 
2014-07-08 12:34:31 PM  

GoldSpider: Deliberately misunderstanding/misrepresenting a point


You'll have to cut him some slack on that one--he's a lawyer, he can't help it.  Ever been in a court room?  The sheer amount of misrepresentation and playing dumb by all attorneys present is enough to make a sane person start doubting reality.
 
2014-07-08 12:35:13 PM  
I present photographic evidence that Bert and Ernie's relationship is strictly platonic.


antikewl.com
 
2014-07-08 12:35:22 PM  
Cheesus:
The article only mentions the business refused to make the Bert/Ernie cake with 'Support Gay Marriage' on it.  Without more evidence, we cannot assume they were refused because of their sexual orientation.

So you agree that the Equality Commission should investigate this potential instance of discrimination? Great, glad we're all on the same page.
 
2014-07-08 12:35:44 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Colour_out_of_Space: Religious Bakery?
Exodus 29:2  And from fine wheat flour, without yeast, make bread, and cakes mixed with oil, and wafers spread with oil.
Hypocrites

Well that was taken totally out of context, and has nothing to do with this discussion.

Consecration of the Priests

29 "Now this is what you shall do to them to consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests. Take one bull of the herd and two rams without blemish, 2and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers smeared with oil. You shall make them of fine wheat flour. 3You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, and bring the bull and the two rams. 4You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting and wash them with water. 5Then you shall take the garments, and put on Aaron the coat and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastpiece, and gird him with the skillfully woven band of the ephod. 6And you shall set the turban on his head and put the holy crown on the turban. 7You shall take the anointing oil and pour it on his head and anoint him. 8Then you shall bring his sons and put coats on them, 9and you shall gird Aaron and his sons with sashes and bind caps on them. And the priesthood shall be theirs by a statute forever. Thus you shall ordain Aaron and his sons.


Well, they're not doing any of that stuff!
 
2014-07-08 12:36:27 PM  

menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.


Beat me to it. It's exactly, unexaggeratedly the same. You can be a society that abhors making a set of humanity second class citizens for an ostensibly meaningless trait or you can be wrong.
 
2014-07-08 12:36:36 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Ah, so you agree that the  box may be corporate letterhead, but not the  cake?

That's where you're splitting the hair?  Really?


Did the customer request the message to be printed on the box, or just the cake?
 
2014-07-08 12:37:19 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?

You can love someone, but still not support their lifestyle.


You CAN, yes.  But most Christians don't.
 
2014-07-08 12:37:26 PM  
 
2014-07-08 12:37:28 PM  

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.

They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?


It says right in the article that the bakery "refused to make a cake featuring the slogan". It's the specific product that they didn't want to make, and not a carte blanche refusal to serve gay people.
 
2014-07-08 12:38:00 PM  

ReverendJasen: Ever been in a court room?  The sheer amount of misrepresentation and playing dumb by all attorneys present is enough to make a sane person start doubting reality.


Yeah, the willful denial of reality, logic, and common sense would probably make my head explode.
 
2014-07-08 12:39:03 PM  

mama2tnt: cwolf20: Come to America. The lawsuit hap happiest place on earth.  I think I should go sue Burger King for not serving dolphin

Have you ever walked up to the window with one to find out?

/Last time I took my dolphin for a walk we stopped by BK for fish sammiches. Yum.


Was THAT what all that commotion was yesterday?  I was getting busy in the bathroom.
 
2014-07-08 12:39:21 PM  

stpauler: Frank N Stein:

So they went to another company and got the product that they wanted to, and the other bakery didn't have to make a product that they didn't want to. Why should the government be involved again?

Because laws. Laws that were passed. Maybe also due in part to Northern Ireland's history of not quite getting along with those of other opinions.

The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland is a non departmental public body established by the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Our powers and duties derive from a number of statutes which have been enacted over the last decades, providing protection against discrimination on the grounds of age, disability, race, religion and political opinion, sex and sexual orientation. We also have responsibilities arising from the Northern Ireland Act 1998 in respect of the statutory equality and good relations duties which apply to public authorities.

Our sponsor Department is the Office of the First and deputy First Minister which carries responsibilities for equality policy and legislation in the Northern Ireland Executive.
- See more at: http://www.equalityni.org/HeaderLinks/About-Us#sthash.MnwyJWcH.dpuf


Okay, so then why do you believe that there should there be this law which requires a company to make a product that it doesn't want to?
 
2014-07-08 12:39:24 PM  

stpauler: Luckily, one doesn't have to be gay to be discriminated against based on sexual orientation.


In that case, there's a lot of money to be made in the court system.  Working as intended, I suppose.
 
2014-07-08 12:40:41 PM  
Why don't these bakeries go the Curves route and become private heterosexual cake clubs? They could charge a $1 annual membership fee or something and be all set.

It just seems stupid to risk a bunch of bad publicity when there are perfectly legal ways out there to discriminate against anyone you want to. I'm starting to think that some of them actually want the publicity so they can brag to the rest of us about how hard they believe in jebus and the bibble.
 
2014-07-08 12:42:07 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: Ah, so you agree that the  box may be corporate letterhead, but not the  cake?

Must the cake carry a mark on it to denote that it came from a certain bakery in order to be an advertising medium? Or is word of mouth and understanding that the cake that came out of the box came from the same bakery as the box enough?


The word of mouth may be advertising, not the cake itself. But hey, let's go with your argument for a second - assume the cake is advertising. It can now be regulated as commercial speech, which has much less protection than creative speech. Why, all sorts of non-discrimination in advertising regulations can be applied to it now! Are you  really sure you want to go with that argument?

Theaetetus: According to another article, this was the picture that the customers wanted printed on a sheet cake:

So because one cake is "printed," the bakery makes no original cakes?


We're talking about this particular cake. Who cares if they make brioche?
To return to the original analogy, a paper company may make blank printer paper  as well astheir own corporate letter head... That doesn't mean that the former is  also corporate letterhead, such that anything anyone prints on it becomes adopted as their belief.

Theaetetus: And no reasonable person would conflate printing a customer-requested image on a sheet cake with corporate letterhead.

Good thing no one in this thread conflated the two. GoldSpider thinks that a cake, no matter what the image or design, is a representative advertisement of the bakery. And he's correct.


Nope, it's absolutely incorrect. But then, you also apparently think that everything posted on Fark is a representative advertisement of Drew and the modmins.
 
2014-07-08 12:42:27 PM  

Theaetetus: Are you really suggesting that someone who manufactures a product at someone's request explicitly endorses all of the beliefs of that someone?


No, I am saying that it can be construed that way. That's it. If you think this to be false, then I really don't know what more there is to say to you on the topic.

Theaetetus: ... so you aresaying that all of the modmins and Drew must endorse whatever is posted here, because they can change or delete it? That Fark is their "corporate letterhead" so anything that appears on their site is their officially adopted belief?


I am not saying that they endorse everything that is posted here. It would be impossible to ascribe the beliefs of every single Farker to the individuals that own and run the site. See, because we customers of Fark are the ones actually creating the content. We hold our own beliefs under our usernames.

However, Fark.com is their corporate letterhead. It is the product that they present to the public and inferences can be made based on what is posted here that can be directed back at the owners and operators of the site. For instance, I can discern that Drew is likely more concerned with his belief that making money is preferable to having NSFW links on the main page, hence the decision to move Foobies out of the main FarkoSphere.
 
2014-07-08 12:42:39 PM  
And for what it's worth at this point, I happen to support marriage equality.  I just happen to also support a business' right to choose what products it wants to produce and sell.  These beliefs are not contradictory.
 
2014-07-08 12:43:35 PM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen?  I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.


Oh, thank you!  That's EXACTLY what LBGTQ folks have needed all along, for you to tell us how we should strategize!
 
2014-07-08 12:43:39 PM  
"Hey Chuck! We can't go making a gay rights cake! If the townspeople see it they'll assume we aren't bigots! And then our friends, families, and churches will condemn us for not being bigots! It would be a DISASTER."
 
2014-07-08 12:44:24 PM  

GoldSpider: Selena Luna: That's what discrimination is: someone is offering others services or products that they refuse to offer to a specific group.

Nothing in the article suggests a particular group was refused service.


Go into the bakery wearing gay pride shirts and holding hands, order a "Happy Birthday" cake. If they refuse I think most people would definitely be on your side. The "Support Gay Rights" cake puts a lot of people on the fence.
 
2014-07-08 12:44:53 PM  

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.

They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?

It says right in the article that the bakery "refused to make a cake featuring the slogan". It's the specific product that they didn't want to make, and not a carte blanche refusal to serve gay people.


It doesn't say anywhere in the article that they offered to make a different cake. Rather, they refused the order and refunded the customer's money.
 
2014-07-08 12:45:28 PM  
Frank N Stein:

Okay, so then why do you believe that there should there be this law which requires a company to make a product that it doesn't want to?


Why do I, as an American, believe that Northern Ireland should have a law requiring businesses not to discriminate against its potential clientele? You mean, besides the points repeated elucidated in this thread, in my post, and in the articles and links provided, and Northern Ireland's history of sectarian and political violence?
 
2014-07-08 12:47:10 PM  

stpauler: Welcome to a month of TF to a couple posters here.


Hey, thanks for the month of TF.
 
2014-07-08 12:47:27 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: ... so you aresaying that all of the modmins and Drew must endorse whatever is posted here, because they can change or delete it? That Fark is their "corporate letterhead" so anything that appears on their site is their officially adopted belief?

I am not saying that they endorse everything that is posted here... Fark.com is their corporate letterhead. It is the product that they present to the public and inferences can be made based on what is posted here that can be directed back at the owners and operators of the site.


So, you're not saying that they endorse everything here, but rather that reasonable inferences can be made that they endorse everything here?

cdn2.crushable.com
 
2014-07-08 12:48:36 PM  

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.

They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?

It says right in the article that the bakery "refused to make a cake featuring the slogan". It's the specific product that they didn't want to make, and not a carte blanche refusal to serve gay people.

It doesn't say anywhere in the article that they offered to make a different cake. Rather, they refused the order and refunded the customer's money.


So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?
 
2014-07-08 12:49:19 PM  

Theaetetus: The word of mouth may be advertising, not the cake itself.


Gotcha. You're just dumb.

Theaetetus: We're talking about this particular cake. Who cares if they make brioche?


We  are talking about this particular cake. Which is why I thought it odd that you claim that the bakery doesn't do any cake design. Why bring in the non-sequitor? Was it to show that art creation holds more protection than simple commercial speech?

Theaetetus: It can now be regulated as commercial speech, which has much less protection than creative speech.


So, in your world, I can be forced to say something that I don't agree with if the government can classify it as advertising? Why then, are advertising rules not applied to political signs, as they are nothing more than advertisements for a particular candidate or position? Is that speech can be both creative and commercial at the same time? Nah....has to be one or the other, right?

Theaetetus: But then, you also apparently think that everything posted on Fark is a representative advertisement of Drew and the modmins.


Are you trying to say that the selection of links that they approve do not represent a belief held by Drew that certain stories are more attuned to this site than others? Or that the removal of certain comments do not represent a belief held by Drew that those sorts of comments are counter to the stated goals of the site?
 
2014-07-08 12:49:40 PM  

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.

They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?

It says right in the article that the bakery "refused to make a cake featuring the slogan". It's the specific product that they didn't want to make, and not a carte blanche refusal to serve gay people.

It doesn't say anywhere in the article that they offered to make a different cake. Rather, they refused the order and refunded the customer's money.

So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?


Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?
 
2014-07-08 12:50:34 PM  

Theaetetus: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: ... so you aresaying that all of the modmins and Drew must endorse whatever is posted here, because they can change or delete it? That Fark is their "corporate letterhead" so anything that appears on their site is their officially adopted belief?

I am not saying that they endorse everything that is posted here... Fark.com is their corporate letterhead. It is the product that they present to the public and inferences can be made based on what is posted here that can be directed back at the owners and operators of the site.

So, you're not saying that they endorse everything here, but rather that reasonable inferences can be made that they endorse everything here?

[cdn2.crushable.com image 245x285]


I know you're a lawyer, but how about actually responding to the words that I wrote and not the words that you imagine I wrote. Where did I say "everything?"
 
2014-07-08 12:50:36 PM  

stpauler: Frank N Stein:

Okay, so then why do you believe that there should there be this law which requires a company to make a product that it doesn't want to?


Why do I, as an American, believe that Northern Ireland should have a law requiring businesses not to discriminate against its potential clientele? You mean, besides the points repeated elucidated in this thread, in my post, and in the articles and links provided, and Northern Ireland's history of sectarian and political violence?


Yes. Why do you believe they are required to create a product that expresses an essentially political opinion?
 
2014-07-08 12:52:01 PM  

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.

They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?

It says right in the article that the bakery "refused to make a cake featuring the slogan". It's the specific product that they didn't want to make, and not a carte blanche refusal to serve gay people.

It doesn't say anywhere in the article that they offered to make a different cake. Rather, they refused the order and refunded the customer's money.

So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?

Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?


Again, falling back on allusions to 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.
 
2014-07-08 12:52:52 PM  

Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?


If you are a Democrat I bet you already do.
 
2014-07-08 12:53:34 PM  

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Or they could put on their contract that they are not responsible for the content of any customer-requested message. Would that make you happy, or do you insist that the bakery must shove their bigotry in everyone's face?

I suppose if the bakery wants to do that, it's a valid solution. However, refusing to make a specific cake is also a solution as well.
Why can't the customers just go to another bakery if they insist on a specific product?

I suppose if the lunch counter wants to print on the backs of their checks that they don't endorse any racial beliefs of their customers, that's a valid solution. However, refusing to serve black people is also a solution as well. Why can't those darkies just go to another lunch counter if they insist on eating at a restaurant?

That's a different issue because in your scenario, it's an outright refusal to serve a group of people, whereas this whole bakery thing is about refusing to create a specific product.

But you already knew that. You're just running out of valid arguments.

They refused to serve these customers. No mention was made of alternate products. But you knew that, too, since you read the article, right?

It says right in the article that the bakery "refused to make a cake featuring the slogan". It's the specific product that they didn't want to make, and not a carte blanche refusal to serve gay people.

It doesn't say anywhere in the article that they offered to make a different cake. Rather, they refused the order and refunded the customer's money.

So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?

Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?


If a black guy goes to a fish place and insists on having a steak, it would be racist to suggest he go to a different restaurant. Got it.
 
2014-07-08 12:54:09 PM  
Why would any self respecting gay person use the services of a bakery for a cake?
What's next, religious interior decorators and gay bashing florists?

I just don't believe it.
 
2014-07-08 12:54:18 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?

1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
[img.fark.net image 300x238][img.fark.net image 300x226][img.fark.net image 288x226][img.fark.net image 256x197]
[img.fark.net image 259x194] [img.fark.net image 252x224]

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.


Did you purposefully ignore the part of my post that said CHILDLIKE.  All of the muppets your picture seem to be adult characters.  It's been a whole lot of years since I watched Sesame street, but Ernie sure seems like the character of a child to me.
 
2014-07-08 12:54:24 PM  

Frank N Stein: mainstreet62: You guys are missing the entire point of this discussion.

WHAT KIND OF CAKE WAS IT?!

/Ice cream? Please say ice cream!

I like ice cream cake. Cheaper cakes, like the ones you buy at the supermarket, are awful. The frosting tends to be way too sweet for my liking. I know fark all about cakes, so maybe someone here can help me be a more discerning cake shopper. What kind of frosting is it that isn't the fluffy super-sweet stuff on seemingly most cakes? I like the richer, more creamy or buttery type frosting. That's the good shiat, and I want to know what it's called.


Buttercream frosting. The stuff that most grocery stores sell is shortening and powdered sugar.
 
2014-07-08 12:54:34 PM  

umad: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?

If you are a Democrat I bet you already do.


And if you look way above you and to the left, you will see the point, which you totally missed.
 
2014-07-08 12:54:34 PM  
The_Six_Fingered_Man:We  are talking about this particular cake. Which is why I thought it odd that you claim that the bakery doesn't do any cake design. Why bring in the non-sequitor?

... this particular cake, which you agree we're talking about, doesn't involve any cake design. What's a non-sequitor about that?

Was it to show that art creation holds more protection than simple commercial speech?

Also, you do know that that's true, don't you?

So, in your world, I can be forced to say something that I don't agree with if the government can classify it as advertising?

For example, if you believe that whites are superior and you don't want to rent your house to anyone except whites, then yes, the government can most certainly prevent you from saying that, and can force you to say that you'll rent your house to anyone of any race. It's been this way for what, almost 50 years now? Why is this so shocking to you?

Why then, are advertising rules not applied to political signs, as they are nothing more than advertisements for a particular candidate or position? Is that speech can be both creative and commercial at the same time? Nah....has to be one or the other, right?

Or is it that political speech and creative speech (and also scientific speech) are protected more than commercial speech? Nah, all speech must be identical, right?

Are you trying to say that the selection of links that they approve do not represent a belief held by Drew that certain stories are more attuned to this site than others? Or that the removal of certain comments do not represent a belief held by Drew that those sorts of comments are counter to the stated goals of the site?

... my god, you really  are trying to claim that the modmins and Drew endorse every comment that remains on the site after they've had an opportunity to remove it. That's it. You're a looney.
 
2014-07-08 12:55:56 PM  
They should make it a chocolate cake and make Ernie be eating the poo-poo
 
2014-07-08 12:56:21 PM  
The problem here is fraud.

The bakery owners reject the teachings of Jesus, but claim to be Christians.

All they have to do is make these claims in court and they are in jail for contempt.
 
2014-07-08 12:56:31 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: ... so you aresaying that all of the modmins and Drew must endorse whatever is posted here, because they can change or delete it? That Fark is their "corporate letterhead" so anything that appears on their site is their officially adopted belief?

I am not saying that they endorse everything that is posted here... Fark.com is their corporate letterhead. It is the product that they present to the public and inferences can be made based on what is posted here that can be directed back at the owners and operators of the site.

So, you're not saying that they endorse everything here, but rather that reasonable inferences can be made that they endorse everything here?

[cdn2.crushable.com image 245x285]

I know you're a lawyer, but how about actually responding to the words that I wrote and not the words that you imagine I wrote. Where did I say "everything?"


So, you're not saying that they endorse everything here, but rather that reasonable inferences can be made that they endorse "what is posted here"?
replygif.net
 
2014-07-08 12:57:07 PM  
What's next? Inter-species marriage? How aberrant does it have to get before people realize it ain't right?
 
2014-07-08 12:57:53 PM  

Frank N Stein: Again, falling back on allusions to 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.


Again, refusing to admit any parallels to the 1960s civil rights movement. Just stop.
s2.hubimg.com
 
2014-07-08 01:00:26 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein:
So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?

Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?

If a black guy goes to a fish place and insists on having a steak, it would be racist to suggest he go to a different restaurant. Got it.


If these guys went into a bakery that makes custom cakes with customer-requested images and insisted on having a steak, they'd be wrong. But they didn't. They asked for a custom cake with a customer-requested image.
 
2014-07-08 01:00:46 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?

1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
[img.fark.net image 300x238][img.fark.net image 300x226][img.fark.net image 288x226][img.fark.net image 256x197]
[img.fark.net image 259x194] [img.fark.net image 252x224]

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.


Wow, I just realized Gonzo is republican.
 
2014-07-08 01:03:26 PM  

trappedspirit: They should make it a chocolate cake and make Ernie be eating the poo-poo


stream1.gifsoup.com
 
2014-07-08 01:03:56 PM  

GoldSpider: If a black guy goes to a fish place and insists on having a steak, it would be racist to suggest he go to a different restaurant. Got it.


They don't have steak, so that's not accurate.
It's more like if the black guy orders a piece of fish to be prepared in some fashion that the chef finds contrary to his beliefs and the chef refuses to make that fish.  According to some people, that chef is a racist.
 
2014-07-08 01:04:52 PM  

Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein:
So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?

Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?

If a black guy goes to a fish place and insists on having a steak, it would be racist to suggest he go to a different restaurant. Got it.

If these guys went into a bakery that makes custom cakes with customer-requested images and insisted on having a steak, they'd be wrong. But they didn't. They asked for a custom cake with a customer-requested image.


and they denied to produce said requested image.

Just like the NFL doesn't have to air your advertisement just because you paid the money and you, obviously, have advertisements.

The NFL doesn't like the subject of your advertisement?  Suck it.
 
2014-07-08 01:05:43 PM  

Heamer: I know literally nothing about owning a business, but it always strikes me as a poor business model to turn away people who are willing to give you money for your services. That certain people are so obsessed with attaching their beliefs to their business just seems self-destructive.


There are people who will flock to your business because of it.  Witness Chick-Fil-A Appreciation Day.
 
2014-07-08 01:06:13 PM  

Theaetetus: ... this particular cake, which you agree we're talking about, doesn't involve any cake design. What's a non-sequitor about that?


The fact that you attributed the design of this cake to all offerings from the bakery. "they make custom cakes as requested by the customer. Specifically, they don't design cakes - they make sheet cakes and print an image on the face. It doesn't include any creative input from them." They did not "design" the face of this cake, but that is not to mean that they do not design ANY cakes, as you suggest.

Theaetetus: Also, you do know that that's true, don't you?


Yes, I do, which is how I picked up on your attempt.

Theaetetus: For example, if you believe that whites are superior and you don't want to rent your house to anyone except whites, then yes, the government can most certainly prevent you from saying that, and can force you to say that you'll rent your house to anyone of any race. It's been this way for what, almost 50 years now? Why is this so shocking to you?


They can require that I present an equal opportunity in my advertisements. They cannot require, absent evidence of actual discrimination, that I rent to a non-white over a white person. In other words, they cannot compel me to conduct business with that person absent actual discrimination. The bakery, by making the cake, is creating a product and conducting business.

Theaetetus: Or is it that political speech and creative speech (and also scientific speech) are protected more than commercial speech? Nah, all speech must be identical, right?


So you agree that political speech is more protected than commercial speech. Is the stance on same sex marriage not a political stance as well as a religious stance? Is it not afforded greater protection than plain commercial speech? If speech can be classified as both political and commercial in nature, which protections is it afforded?

Theaetetus: ... my god, you really  are trying to claim that the modmins and Drew endorse every comment that remains on the site after they've had an opportunity to remove it. That's it. You're a looney.


That's not what I am claiming at all. You are the one trying to analogize the comments posted on a somewhat open forum are the same as content created by a single person in the course of business. If Drew was the only one posting here, I could absolutely infer that the postings here were representative of his overall beliefs. Since he is not, all I can infer is that certain types of content go against his beliefs, whether they be political, business, religion, or science related. You can try once again to say that this statement means that I think Drew personally reviews each comment to ensure that each one is a stringent adherence to his personal beliefs, but you would once again be misrepresenting my position.
 
2014-07-08 01:08:26 PM  
The_Six_Fingered_Man:  GoldSpider thinks that a cake, no matter what the image or design, is a representative advertisement of the bakery. And he's correct. You seem to think that it's a pair of pants or an unrelated image. I am having trouble finding any reasonableness in your replies.


Well, he's partially correct.  It's an advertisement of the quality of the bakery and nothing more.  It is not an advertisement of the beliefs of the people that work at or own the bakery or the individual that decorated the cake.  Why the personal beliefs of these people are involved in any way makes no sense and making baked goods for people that have different beliefs than they do in no way infringes on their actual beliefs.  I'm quite sure there is no passage in the bible that states it is sinful to make baked goods for sinners, so how is this actually infringing upon their beliefs?

Like I said earlier, Jesus didn't refuse to give loaves and fishes to anyone.
 
2014-07-08 01:08:35 PM  

Theaetetus: GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein:
So? Assuming that they didn't offer an alternative product, isn't it up to the customer to come up with an alternative that fits their needs?

Like "go to the diner down the street that will serve your kind"?

If a black guy goes to a fish place and insists on having a steak, it would be racist to suggest he go to a different restaurant. Got it.

If these guys went into a bakery that makes custom cakes with customer-requested images and insisted on having a steak, they'd be wrong. But they didn't. They asked for a custom cake with a customer-requested image.


So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?  Don't think that they get refused? Go and work at a bakery for a year. Cake designs get refused all the time.  To make the claim that the proprietor doesn't have a choice in what they create is silly. If the proprietor had declined to make them any cake at all because they were gay then sure they'd have grounds to sue them in the US, but it seems to me the the creator should have the ability to veto designs they don't like regardless of if we agree with their reasons or not.
 
2014-07-08 01:09:20 PM  

Theaetetus: They asked for a custom cake with a customer-requested image.


So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X? Would a regulation that allows the first refusal but not the second not be content neutral?
 
2014-07-08 01:09:33 PM  
Does anyone else have the sudden mental image of Theaetetus sitting in a court room flashing pictures of people making faces at the judge and opposing council as they're making their arguments?

/laughter OL
//I'm easily amused
 
2014-07-08 01:11:53 PM  
Does anyone else have the sudden mental image of Theaetetus sitting in a court room flashing pictures of people making faces at the judge and opposing council as they're making their arguments?


No, because he spends all his time clogging up threads on this site.
 
2014-07-08 01:16:23 PM  

Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike" says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

Ker_Thwap: Did you purposefully ignore the part of my post that said CHILDLIKE


Look how stupid you are

Ker_Thwap: All of the muppets your picture seem to be adult characters. It's been a whole lot of years since I watched Sesame street, but Ernie sure seems like the character of a child to me.

The fact that the two of them live on their own in an apartment makes it pretty clear that they are "adult"  characters. I didn't initially comment on your "NAMBLA" reference, but combined with your continued insistence that Ernie and/or Bert are "childlike", the only thing here that's farking creepy is you.
 
2014-07-08 01:21:50 PM  

bestsportnascar: I wonder what would happen if a contractor refused to put in a bid to build a Chick-Fil-A because of their views. Would everyone be ok with that?


Not here in the US because it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion. That and contractors are not generally known for their high moral standards so it would come as quite a shock if one took any kind of moral stand that didn't involve the proper type of beer to drink before work ends vs. what type to drink after work ends.
 
2014-07-08 01:24:31 PM  
In this instance couldn't they say, "Sorry, they're copyrighted characters and we don't have permission to use their likenesses."?
 
2014-07-08 01:27:15 PM  

Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?

The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?


Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.
 
2014-07-08 01:27:52 PM  

ReverendJasen: Does anyone else have the sudden mental image of Theaetetus sitting in a court room flashing pictures of people making faces at the judge and opposing council as they're making their arguments?


http://whatthepublicdefender.tumblr.com/
 
2014-07-08 01:31:25 PM  

Egoy3k: If the proprietor had declined to make them any cake at all because they were gay then sure they'd have grounds to sue them in the US, but it seems to me the the creator should have the ability to veto designs they don't like regardless of if we agree with their reasons or not.


Lawyers have a heavily vested interest in creating new reasons to sue.

debug: Well, he's partially correct.  It's an advertisement of the quality of the bakery and nothing more.


The rules of artistic interpretation aren't quite that simple.
 
2014-07-08 01:32:29 PM  

theflatline: GoldSpider: You order a "support gay marriage" cake from a religious bakery, and then get indignant when they decline?

Take this drivel to The Consumerist, subby.

I am going to order pork chops and a side of shellfish in a kosher deli and become incensed when they don't serve me.


You missed the point. This bakery offers to make cakes but then chooses discriminate. I don't think kosher delis sell pork chops.
 
2014-07-08 01:32:59 PM  
If baking a cake that seems to support marriage equality goes against your conscience, then you have a defective conscience.

In other words, "against your conscience" is not an out when what you believe is patently ridiculous.

Now, if someone wanted a pro-Nazi cake, you as a baker would be within your rights to refuse on grounds that it goes against your conscience.

Use this handy guide: Nazi people = mostly bad     Gay people = mostly good.
 
2014-07-08 01:33:02 PM  

Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.


You can't discriminate against an image. I find it hard to believe that the head office corporate managers were even aware of the customer in question, but were reacting to the image that the customer requested. The order was not refused solely by the Belfast bakery manager, but by the head office including the owners who were presumptively not present when the order was placed.

The Equality Commission is stating that the bakery discriminated against the customer based on his sexual orientation, but all I can find is that they objected to the image and what it represented.

So I ask you, how can an image carry a specific trait that affords it discrimination protection under the law?
 
2014-07-08 01:34:09 PM  

Elliot8654: umad: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?

If you are a Democrat I bet you already do.

And if you look way above you and to the left, you will see the point, which you totally missed.


The point that it would be wrong to blame Colt and the other gun manufacturers for endorsing murder even though most farkers (likely including yourself) blame Colt and the other gun manufacturers for endorsing murder? Yes, hypocrisy is always so convincing.
 
2014-07-08 01:36:33 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?

1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
[img.fark.net image 300x238][img.fark.net image 300x226][img.fark.net image 288x226][img.fark.net image 256x197]
[img.fark.net image 259x194] [img.fark.net image 252x224]

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.


I love you for this.
 
2014-07-08 01:37:08 PM  

Circusdog320: Where did Jesus say love everybody except gay people?


www.atheistmemebase.com
 
2014-07-08 01:39:38 PM  

gshepnyc: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?

1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
[img.fark.net image 300x238][img.fark.net image 300x226][img.fark.net image 288x226][img.fark.net image 256x197]
[img.fark.net image 259x194] [img.fark.net image 252x224]

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.

I love you for this.


Aw, thanks. I made it into a single handy picture
img.fark.net
 
2014-07-08 01:44:20 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: gshepnyc: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation choice?

1) Sexual orientation is not a choice

2) The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike"  says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay

3) Using images of muppets to "promote" sexual orientation doesn't seem to be much of a problem when that orientation is "heterosexual"
[img.fark.net image 300x238][img.fark.net image 300x226][img.fark.net image 288x226][img.fark.net image 256x197]
[img.fark.net image 259x194] [img.fark.net image 252x224]

Having a chicken as your romantic partner is A-OK, as long as it's a girl chicken.

I love you for this.

Aw, thanks. I made it into a single handy picture
[img.fark.net image 515x959]


Actually, I think Janice sleeps with the whole band.
 
2014-07-08 01:45:04 PM  

umad: Elliot8654: umad: Elliot8654: GoldSpider: Serious Black: If I make a cake that says "Death to the Jews" for a group of Neo-Nazis, does that mean I endorse committing a mass genocide against Jews?

Someone who sees that message on a cake you produced and sold could conclude that.  And I certainly don't think you, as a business owner, would want to risk that.

So can I now blame colt and gun manufacturers for endorsing murder since their guns are used for it?

If you are a Democrat I bet you already do.

And if you look way above you and to the left, you will see the point, which you totally missed.

The point that it would be wrong to blame Colt and the other gun manufacturers for endorsing murder even though most farkers (likely including yourself) blame Colt and the other gun manufacturers for endorsing murder? Yes, hypocrisy is always so convincing.


You should be competing in track and field with that Olympic long jump to conclusions.
 
2014-07-08 01:46:11 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: So Bert and Ernie are pole-smokers? I guess that makes sense what with it being a children's program, and whatnot...

1funny.com

 
2014-07-08 01:47:19 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: However, Fark.com is their corporate letterhead. It is the product that they present to the public and inferences can be made based on what is posted here that can be directed back at the owners and operators of the site. For instance, I can discern that Drew is likely more concerned with his belief that making money is preferable to having NSFW links on the main page, hence the decision to move Foobies out of the main FarkoSphere.


Better not point out, also, that Fark.com censors words/comments the owner finds objectionable.
 
2014-07-08 01:47:44 PM  
BitwiseShift:

Bakeries already have lots of sexual stuff going on -- ever kneaded dough or used an icing tube? The owner just doesn't want it to get out of hand with more sexual avenues with his already over-sexed employees with the introduction of children's show characters.

[img.fark.net image 179x266]


Tinky Winky is missing his purse in that photo. Oops, I mean his 'magic bag'.
 
2014-07-08 01:47:53 PM  

fiddlehead: Tom_Slick: If I were a baker I would refuse to make the cake on the grounds that Children's Television Workshop might sue me.  You can have your Support Gay Marriage Cake, I'd draw the line at using Trademarked characters on it.

I see Sesame Street and Disney cakes at my local grocery store all the time.


That doesn't make it legal. I imagine if they wanted they could hire an army of lawyers to go around with cease and deist orders for years and still never hit every bakery.  Besides that would make them the douches that ruined little Tommy's birthday and that would not be good advertising. They're better accepting it as free advertising.  In this case though CTW has specifically stated that Bert and Ernie are children puppets. They have no sexual orientation and you are a sick individual if you feel the need to attach any sexual orientation to them and don't want them to be used as a part of that debate.
 
2014-07-08 01:49:41 PM  

Teresaol31: Funny, there was a time when I thought that the fundamentalist "Bible Baptists" that went on and on about Bert and Ernie being a gay couple were just strange. (The same group was anti-vax way before anyone saw Jenny McCarthy naked because they thought that letting the health department give your kid a shot for any reason was a way for the kid to get secretly RFID chipped as the mark of the beast, I shiat you not!)

Ask a kid watching Sesame Street who Bert and Ernie are, they will tell you that they are friends who live in the same house.  They are pbviously based on the play/movie/television show the Odd Couple and represent the Felix and Oscar of Sesame Street, showing that two people with clearly different hobbies and priorities can learn to get along and live together.  They are not the Steve and Steve gay married couple (not that there is a thing wrong with that concept, but honestly, if you watch Sesame Street, you will notice that they simply do not address adult interpersonal relationships at all.  They, unlike the perverts that come up with this nonsense, don't think it's appropriate to discuss those things with preschoolers.  Whether it's Bert and Ernie being gay, or the notion that Gordon might take up with a white Mrs., they simply do not discuss such matters on the show!)

As for Bert and Ernie being gay, they don't even sleep in the same bed, so it's all in your heads morons.  Get your filthy minds out of the gutter you sex obsessed theist extremists!  Geez.  Not every damn thing in life has to be about sex, especially a show designed to teach kids preschool skills like getting along, telling the truth, and recognizing colors, shapes, letters, numbers.  Oh, yeah, I guess that would be offended to people that still think that people should isolate themselves from anyone different and only need enough education to read their Bibles!


Green 5 for you.
 
2014-07-08 01:50:04 PM  

EvilEgg: Isn't a good rule of thumb to never let someone who hates you prepare your food?

/Ernie and Bert were not gay.
//Neither were Felix and Oscar who they were styled after.
\Not sure about the latter couple.


How about Sherlock Holmes and John Watson? They're totally gay, yes?
 
2014-07-08 01:51:11 PM  

Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.


OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?

What if they didn't want to make a cake that stated "Girls rule, boys drool!"
 
2014-07-08 01:52:57 PM  

Teresaol31: As for Bert and Ernie being gay, they don't even sleep in the same bed, so it's all in your heads morons.  Get your filthy minds out of the gutter you sex obsessed theist extremists!


Doesn't it say the same thing about someone who would use their image to promote gay rights?
 
2014-07-08 01:53:33 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: You can't discriminate against an image... So I ask you, how can an image carry a specific trait that affords it discrimination protection under the law?


If you already answered your question, why are you asking it?

The Equality Commission is stating that the bakery discriminated against the customer based on his sexual orientation, but all I can find is that they objected to the image and what it represented.

They also made a public statement:
The firm's 24-year-old general manager, Daniel McArthur, said marriage in Northern Ireland "still is defined as being a union between one man and one woman" and said his company was taking "a stand".
In his statement, he specifically says that gay marriage was a factor they considered in their decision making to refuse the order.

It's pretty clear, they refused the order because of sexual orientation of the customers. No one is claiming they were refusing it because they found the colors gaudy or were concerned about copyright infringement. All of the people defending them, other than yourself and a few other Farkers here who clearly missed the point, are talking about freedom of conscience exceptions to anti-discrimination laws.
 
2014-07-08 01:55:02 PM  

jst3p: OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?


Victimless offenses is a huge revenue stream in civil law.
 
2014-07-08 01:55:25 PM  

jst3p: Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.

OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?

What if they didn't want to make a cake that stated "Girls rule, boys drool!"


If they follow it up with a statement that they refused to make the cake because they believe women are inferior, then they'd likely get a similar letter from the Equality Commission.
 
2014-07-08 01:56:42 PM  

Theaetetus: jst3p: Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.

OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?

What if they didn't want to make a cake that stated "Girls rule, boys drool!"

If they follow it up with a statement that they refused to make the cake because they believe women are inferior, then they'd likely get a similar letter from the Equality Commission.


Yeah, I am late to the thread and missed that until the post previous to this one. Thanks.

Bigots need to learn to shut up about their reasons for refusing service if they want to be allowed to refuse service for bigoted reasons.
 
2014-07-08 01:57:11 PM  

GoldSpider: jst3p: OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?

Victimless offenses is a huge revenue stream in civil law.


Actually, I haven't seen a single one of these cases that seek monetary damages. Not the wedding cake one, not the wedding photographer... Nothing. So what exactly is this "huge revenue stream" you're talking about?
 
2014-07-08 01:58:10 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Ker_Thwap: Anyone else think it's creepy using images of a childlike muppet to promote a sexual orientation
Ctrl-Alt-Del: The fact that you feel it necessary to include "creepy" and "childlike" says more about you than about folks who think E&B are gay
Ker_Thwap: Did you purposefully ignore the part of my post that said CHILDLIKE

Look how stupid you are

Ker_Thwap: All of the muppets your picture seem to be adult characters. It's been a whole lot of years since I watched Sesame street, but Ernie sure seems like the character of a child to me.
The fact that the two of them live on their own in an apartment makes it pretty clear that they are "adult"  characters. I didn't initially comment on your "NAMBLA" reference, but combined with your continued insistence that Ernie and/or Bert are "childlike", the only thing here that's farking creepy is you.


Yeah, it's weird to think a character who's claim to fame is singing Rubby Ducky might be a child.  Because the only two people who can live in an apartment together are a adults.  I flat out told you I didn't care one way or another about the LGBT aspect of this discussion, yet you still felt it necessary to mistakenly attribute beliefs to me.  I guess that makes you the clever one.  You go enjoy your Buzz Lightyear/Dora the Explorer for safe sex cake now.
 
2014-07-08 01:58:51 PM  

jst3p: Theaetetus: jst3p: Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.

OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?

What if they didn't want to make a cake that stated "Girls rule, boys drool!"

If they follow it up with a statement that they refused to make the cake because they believe women are inferior, then they'd likely get a similar letter from the Equality Commission.

Yeah, I am late to the thread and missed that until the post previous to this one. Thanks.

Bigots need to learn to shut up about their reasons for refusing service if they want to be allowed to refuse service for bigoted reasons.


They can't stop themselves. It's no fun being holy if they can't be holier than someone, and make sure that person knows it.
 
2014-07-08 02:01:07 PM  

Theaetetus: ReverendJasen: Does anyone else have the sudden mental image of Theaetetus sitting in a court room flashing pictures of people making faces at the judge and opposing council as they're making their arguments?

http://whatthepublicdefender.tumblr.com/


haha.... some of those are great.  Thanks for contributing to the decline of my productivity.
 
2014-07-08 02:01:27 PM  
Cake thing aside I think whoever the customer is/are are douches for associating gay rights/marriage with Bert and Ernie.
 
2014-07-08 02:03:14 PM  

Theaetetus: In his statement, he specifically says that gay marriage was a factor they considered in their decision making to refuse the order.


And what does that have to do with the customer?

Theaetetus: It's pretty clear, they refused the order because of sexual orientation of the customers.


Clear to who?   If you have another source that indicates the customer is gay, and that the bakery owner knew this, then by all means provide it.  In your line of work, can you substitute conjecture for facts when the latter doesn't support your argument?
 
2014-07-08 02:04:13 PM  

Prince George: In this case though CTW has specifically stated that Bert and Ernie are children puppets. They have no sexual orientation and you are a sick individual if you feel the need to attach any sexual orientation to them and don't want them to be used as a part of that debate.


Part of this whole kerfuffle is that people who live in the less densely populated parts of the USA think of "roomates" as something you have in college, but not in "real life" once you get a job.  They simply have no idea how insane the housing situation is on either coast, and how normal it is for people to have roomates well into adulthood.  Case in point:  Having recently moved to the northeast, at a social function someone mentioned that two of her housemates were getting married to each other.  I chuckled and asked, "So who's moving out, you or them?"  She gives me a funny look and says "Nobody's moving out."  My midwestern jaw drops.  For people in "real america", the only imaginable reason for two or more adults to be sharing a residence would be if they were farking.
 
2014-07-08 02:05:17 PM  

Theaetetus: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You can't discriminate against an image... So I ask you, how can an image carry a specific trait that affords it discrimination protection under the law?

If you already answered your question, why are you asking it?

The Equality Commission is stating that the bakery discriminated against the customer based on his sexual orientation, but all I can find is that they objected to the image and what it represented.

They also made a public statement:
The firm's 24-year-old general manager, Daniel McArthur, said marriage in Northern Ireland "still is defined as being a union between one man and one woman" and said his company was taking "a stand".
In his statement, he specifically says that gay marriage was a factor they considered in their decision making to refuse the order.

It's pretty clear, they refused the order because of sexual orientation of the customers. No one is claiming they were refusing it because they found the colors gaudy or were concerned about copyright infringement. All of the people defending them, other than yourself and a few other Farkers here who clearly missed the point, are talking about freedom of conscience exceptions to anti-discrimination laws.



In an online statement, Mr McArthur said: "The directors and myself looked at it and considered it and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs.
"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."

Let's read this.

"The directors and myself looked at it..." Is "it" the order or the customer? Kinda unwieldy to call a person an it, but let's continue.
"and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs." Ok, so we are talking about the order, which is a cake with an image.
"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches..."There is that "it" again. Can we safely assume that he is still referring to the order and not the customer?
"we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order." Yup, looks like he is talking about the order being at odds, not the customer.

He specifically says that "gay marriage" was a factor, not that the customer's orientation was a factor. The customer could have been a straight person ordering the cake for the event and it still would have been declined.

You say it's pretty clear that they refused the order because of orientation, but you cannot find one instance of the owners actually meeting the customer or even knowing the orientation of the customer. Their defenders are talking about freedom of conscience arguments because those would apply equally to the image.
 
2014-07-08 02:05:22 PM  

eeyore102: How about Sherlock Holmes and John Watson? They're totally gay, yes?


Don't know, but my money is on Batman and Robin.
 
gja
2014-07-08 02:08:14 PM  

Theaetetus: GoldSpider: jst3p: OK, but they aren't refusing service to a gay person, just refusing to make a cake with a phrase on it. Would this really fall under discrimination?

Victimless offenses is a huge revenue stream in civil law.

Actually, I haven't seen a single one of these cases that seek monetary damages. Not the wedding cake one, not the wedding photographer... Nothing. So what exactly is this "huge revenue stream" you're talking about?


There might not be damages sought, but I defy you to find me a lawyer that works for free and is worth a damn.

/never hire a poor lawyer, never buy from a rich salesperson
 
2014-07-08 02:08:56 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: You say it's pretty clear that they refused the order because of orientation, but you cannot find one instance of the owners actually meeting the customer or even knowing the orientation of the customer.


In some courts, evidently, lawyers don't actually have to prove things.
 
2014-07-08 02:09:43 PM  

Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.


The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.

There's just something about topics like these that seems to interfere with peoples' ability to construct logical comparisons.
 
2014-07-08 02:13:15 PM  

Biological Ali: Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.

The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.

There's just something about topics like these that seems to interfere with peoples' ability to construct logical comparisons.


That isn't accurate either. He is refusing to create a cake with a phrase on it. It isn't the same as refusing to make a wedding cake for two men because they are gay. I think my analogy, refusing to make a cake that says "Girls rule, boys drool" is a better comparison. It isn't the customer he objects to, it is the message.
 
2014-07-08 02:15:07 PM  

Biological Ali: The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.


So if a bakery were dead set against producing cakes that contain wording or imagery that they personally find offensive, that's ok, so long as they don't produce offensive cakes for anyone?

Because the bakery in question also refused other offensive cakes in the past.
 
2014-07-08 02:17:02 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Because the bakery in question also refused other offensive cakes in the past.


The only safe option is to set up a government commission to decide what images/messages are appropriate to print on a cake.
 
2014-07-08 02:17:55 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: In his statement, he specifically says that gay marriage was a factor they considered in their decision making to refuse the order.

And what does that have to do with the customer?


... the customer was the one who placed the order. When they "refused the order", they refused the  customer's order. Sorry, I thought that was obvious and didn't need to be spelled out.

Theaetetus: It's pretty clear, they refused the order because of sexual orientation of the customers.

Clear to who?   If you have another source that indicates the customer is gay, and that the bakery owner knew this, then by all means provide it.


Ah, so we're back to this, then? The bakery owner can assume someone is gay, and refuse service to them because they're gay, but if they're wrong and the person isn't gay, then it's magically not discrimination?
 
2014-07-08 02:18:46 PM  

jst3p: That isn't accurate either. He is refusing to create a cake with a phrase on it. It isn't the same as refusing to make a wedding cake for two men because they are gay. I think my analogy, refusing to make a cake that says "Girls rule, boys drool" is a better comparison. It isn't the customer he objects to, it is the message.


You might have a point if the bakery had a general policy of not making cakes with political messages on them - that would qualify this particular cake as a product they don't normally produce. But apparently don't have such a policy - or if they do, they haven't bothered to make that argument. All I've been able to gather is that they refused because they have a problem with this specific political message.

Now, if you don't normally have an issue with baking cakes with political slogans on them, but you do have a problem with baking cakes with political slogans that support gay people, then yes - you very clearly are discriminating against gay people.
 
2014-07-08 02:22:15 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: So if a bakery were dead set against producing cakes that contain wording or imagery that they personally find offensive, that's ok, so long as they don't produce offensive cakes for anyone?


The nebulous, vague and potentially inconsistent category of "Things I find personally offensive" tends to not hold as much sway as actual logical assessments of the kinds of products and services you produce, at least when it comes to anti-discrimination laws.

For good reason, too.
 
2014-07-08 02:23:19 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: He specifically says that "gay marriage" was a factor, not that the customer's orientation was a factor. The customer could have been a straight person ordering the cake for the event and it still would have been declined.

You say it's pretty clear that they refused the order because of orientation, but you cannot find one instance of the owners actually meeting the customer or even knowing the orientation of the customer.


You and GoldSpider are barking up the wrong tree on that. Courts have been clear every time this comes up that the anti-discrimination laws focus on the beliefs of the discriminating person. If you refuse to serve someone believe you believe they meet some trait, it doesn't matter whether they actually do or not: your intent is to discriminate.
 
2014-07-08 02:23:25 PM  

Biological Ali: jst3p: That isn't accurate either. He is refusing to create a cake with a phrase on it. It isn't the same as refusing to make a wedding cake for two men because they are gay. I think my analogy, refusing to make a cake that says "Girls rule, boys drool" is a better comparison. It isn't the customer he objects to, it is the message.

You might have a point if the bakery had a general policy of not making cakes with political messages on them - that would qualify this particular cake as a product they don't normally produce. But apparently don't have such a policy - or if they do, they haven't bothered to make that argument. All I've been able to gather is that they refused because they have a problem with this specific political message.

Now, if you don't normally have an issue with baking cakes with political slogans on them, but you do have a problem with baking cakes with political slogans that support gay people, then yes - you very clearly are discriminating against gay people.


You don't have the right to choose the political messages you will create or not? The guy who came up with the Obama logo couldn't tell the GoP he won't work for them? No gay person was discriminated against. He refused to create something with a message he disagreed with.

Don't get me wrong, I am for equal rights and I thought wedding cake guy was in the wrong, I just don't think this is the same situation.
 
2014-07-08 02:23:33 PM  

Biological Ali: jst3p: That isn't accurate either. He is refusing to create a cake with a phrase on it. It isn't the same as refusing to make a wedding cake for two men because they are gay. I think my analogy, refusing to make a cake that says "Girls rule, boys drool" is a better comparison. It isn't the customer he objects to, it is the message.

You might have a point if the bakery had a general policy of not making cakes with political messages on them - that would qualify this particular cake as a product they don't normally produce. But apparently don't have such a policy - or if they do, they haven't bothered to make that argument. All I've been able to gather is that they refused because they have a problem with this specific political message.

Now, if you don't normally have an issue with baking cakes with political slogans on them, but you do have a problem with baking cakes with political slogans that support gay people, then yes - you very clearly are discriminating against gay people.


You may find this shocking but very few hetro wedding cakes  have political slogans  I doubt they've made one before.
 
2014-07-08 02:25:47 PM  

Theaetetus: The bakery owner can assume someone is gay, and refuse service to them because they're gay, but if they're wrong and the person isn't gay, then it's magically not discrimination?


Objection: assuming facts not in evidence.
 
2014-07-08 02:27:02 PM  

Biological Ali: Theaetetus: Egoy3k: So what about the idiot kids who want to buy their friend a custom cake with a marijuana leaf on it or profanity and get refused?
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So what is the difference, logically, between refusing to print a large phallus on the cake versus refusing to print image X?

Anti-discrimination laws name specific traits, rather than applying broadly to any belief or statement.

The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.

There's just something about topics like these that seems to interfere with peoples' ability to construct logical comparisons.


Not really. The owner refused to make a cake sporting the words 'support gay marriage'   I'm pretty sure the owner would also refuse to make a 'support gay marriage' cake for a straight person just as quickly as they would for a gay person.  In other words it's not necessarily the orientation of the person that the owner is objecting to but the message that they want on the cake.

Lets be honest though, we all know that the owner would refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple while happily making wedding cakes for straight couples. As such the owner is a douche and that is against the law in the USA, and I assume the UK as well but that isn't what happened here.
 
2014-07-08 02:27:05 PM  

Theaetetus: When they "refused the order", they refused the  customer's order.


What about the order specifically stated to the owners that reviewed the order that the customer in question is gay? Was it the image that the customer requested? Could I (not a gay person) also request that image for an event that my boss is helping to host (he's not gay, but the event folks are).

You are saying that the order (a non-corporeal thing) carries the same trait as the customer.

Theaetetus: Ah, so we're back to this, then? The bakery owner can assume someone is gay, and refuse service to them because they're gay, but if they're wrong and the person isn't gay, then it's magically not discrimination?


You'd first have to show that the customer was actually discriminated against and it wasn't just that the offensive order was refused. So far, you've been unable to do that. You keep saying that because the image has same sex marriage connotations, that the customer that ordered must necessarily be gay. This assumes facts not in evidence. No article I can find lists who the customer was, only the event it was supposed to be made for, and the person that hosted the event.
 
2014-07-08 02:27:52 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Biological Ali: The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.

So if a bakery were dead set against producing cakes that contain wording or imagery that they personally find offensive, that's ok, so long as they don't produce offensive cakes for anyone?

Because the bakery in question also refused other offensive cakes in the past.


Let's say the bakery was run by some Klan wizard, and he refused to make a sheet cake that had a message celebrating black history month, because he found it offensive... Would you be defending that in the same way?
 
2014-07-08 02:28:32 PM  

Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?


www.abhmuseum.org

Yeah.  Just go somewhere else.
 
2014-07-08 02:29:15 PM  

Theaetetus: Ah, so we're back to this, then? The bakery owner can assume someone is gay, and refuse service to them because they're gay, but if they're wrong and the person isn't gay, then it's magically not discrimination?


I actually have a serious question along these lines (though it's a bit of a tangent). If a white customer wanted a cake made that he intended to bring to another kid's birthday party, and the bakery refused because they believed (correctly or not) that this other kid was black, would that still qualify as the kind of racial discrimination that the Civil Rights Act forbids?
 
2014-07-08 02:29:19 PM  

Theaetetus: If you refuse to serve someone believe you believe they meet some trait, it doesn't matter whether they actually do or not: your intent is to discriminate.


And it is circular logic to assume, as you are, that the refusal of service is itself proof of belief and intent to discriminate.
 
2014-07-08 02:29:35 PM  

Theaetetus: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Biological Ali: The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.

So if a bakery were dead set against producing cakes that contain wording or imagery that they personally find offensive, that's ok, so long as they don't produce offensive cakes for anyone?

Because the bakery in question also refused other offensive cakes in the past.

Let's say the bakery was run by some Klan wizard, and he refused to make a sheet cake that had a message celebrating black history month, because he found it offensive... Would you be defending that in the same way?


If he said "because I don't support that cause", yes. If he said, "because the customer is black", no. The latter is clearly illegal. Is the former?
 
2014-07-08 02:30:01 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: The bakery owner can assume someone is gay, and refuse service to them because they're gay, but if they're wrong and the person isn't gay, then it's magically not discrimination?

Objection: assuming facts not in evidence.


Overruled. The sentence was clearly a rhetorical question to point out the error in your statement that the bakery owner must have personal and intimate knowledge of a customer's sexual life in order to discriminate against them.
 
gja
2014-07-08 02:31:57 PM  

Biological Ali: jst3p: That isn't accurate either. He is refusing to create a cake with a phrase on it. It isn't the same as refusing to make a wedding cake for two men because they are gay. I think my analogy, refusing to make a cake that says "Girls rule, boys drool" is a better comparison. It isn't the customer he objects to, it is the message.

You might have a point if the bakery had a general policy of not making cakes with political messages on them - that would qualify this particular cake as a product they don't normally produce. But apparently don't have such a policy - or if they do, they haven't bothered to make that argument. All I've been able to gather is that they refused because they have a problem with this specific political message.

Now, if you don't normally have an issue with baking cakes with political slogans on them, but you do have a problem with baking cakes with political slogans that support gay people, then yes - you very clearly are discriminating against gay people.


But that should be in the contract and stated very clearly, possibly posted in store, for all to see.
Something along the lines of "No political or social agenda slogan cakes, no exceptions"

But it wasn't, so it isn't too hard to deduce it was done as a "taking a stand" (bakers choice of words, not mine).
And that's where they qualify for the 'bigot' moniker.

He could have lied, said it was something else, and made it about some other bullcrap other than his bigotry, and might have pulled it off.
But for that to work, and for him to avoid a legal hassle he would need to shut up about it.
And bigots (with exceedingly rare exceptions) just cannot seem to do that.
They NEED to open mouths and let everyone know just why they feel they are right.


And then they end up linked inside this electronic tome that is............
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-07-08 02:32:37 PM  

ciberido: Deedeemarz: Why is this such a big deal? Can't they just find another baker?

[www.abhmuseum.org image 300x400]

Yeah.  Just go somewhere else.


Nobody click that link unless you don't have anything to do for the rest of the day!  It's fascinating and engrossing!  I learned this to my sorrow the last time it was linked on fark.
 
2014-07-08 02:32:54 PM  
Theaetetus: Let's say the bakery was run by some Klan wizard, and he refused to make a sheet cake that had a message celebrating black history month, because he found it offensive... Would you be defending that in the same way?

"I bet you'd defend a Klansman too!" is an interesting fallback point to retreat to, if not terribly surprising.
 
2014-07-08 02:33:16 PM  

Cold_Sassy: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: menschenfresser: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: BFletch651: Oh, good lord.  If some asshole doesn't  want the job, just get someone else.  You don't have to argue with everyone about everything.

^^^^^^^^
So much this.

And who the hell would WANT a cake baked by somebody who didn't want to bake it?

Those black boys in Nashville should have just gone to a different lunch counter where people didn't hate them.

Sadly, I think you might be serious.  Hey?  Remember the old mantra, "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Over It'?   Well, most thinking people have.  The problem is, not everybody WILL, and you're never going to MAKE them.  So why not just go to a different bakery and stop whining about EVERYTHING?  It's a farkin' CAKE.  Or do you really want a cake that some ignorant a-hole is likely to urinate on, or ejaculate into, while he laughs himself silly in the kitchen?  I don't care one way or another to whom you're attracted, but gay people really need to choose their battles more wisely.

Thank you for saying this.  Don't often see this level of intelligence on FARK.


You could be have a bucket of intelligence thrown in your face and you wouldn't recognize it.

How many people are discussing this now? Not just on Fark, either --  it will make some TV news broadcast, obviously Facebook posts, etc. I'm guessing millions if not tens of millions.

That's a lot of publicity for a cause and they certainly wouldn't get that by just going to another bakery.

Or did you think the cake was the actual point? Geez, think a minute before you post.
 
2014-07-08 02:33:46 PM  

GoldSpider: Egoy3k: If the proprietor had declined to make them any cake at all because they were gay then sure they'd have grounds to sue them in the US, but it seems to me the the creator should have the ability to veto designs they don't like regardless of if we agree with their reasons or not.

Lawyers have a heavily vested interest in creating new reasons to sue.

debug: Well, he's partially correct.  It's an advertisement of the quality of the bakery and nothing more.

The rules of artistic interpretation aren't quite that simple.


Please elaborate.
 
2014-07-08 02:34:32 PM  
From a legal stand point there's only one real question that needs to be answered.
If a hetro couple had ordered the same cake would they have refused service.
I thinks it's obvious that they would have. Therefore they were treated equally.
 
2014-07-08 02:34:37 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: When they "refused the order", they refused the  customer's order.

What about the order specifically stated to the owners that reviewed the order that the customer in question is gay? Was it the image that the customer requested? Could I (not a gay person) also request that image for an event that my boss is helping to host (he's not gay, but the event folks are).


Absolutely, you could, and if they refused to sell it to you then that would also potentially be discrimination. It doesn't matter whether  you are gay or not.

You are saying that the order (a non-corporeal thing) carries the same trait as the customer.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that the intent of the discriminator matters, not the actual presence or absence of the trait.

Theaetetus: Ah, so we're back to this, then? The bakery owner can assume someone is gay, and refuse service to them because they're gay, but if they're wrong and the person isn't gay, then it's magically not discrimination?

You'd first have to show that the customer was actually discriminated against and it wasn't just that the offensive order was refused.


You don't have to show the customer was actually gay to show they were actually discriminated against.

So far, you've been unable to do that. You keep saying that because the image has same sex marriage connotations, that the customer that ordered must necessarily be gay.

You moaned and whined and rent your garments because you claimed I misrepresented something you said. Now, you're misrepresenting something I said, for the second time. You're a hypocrite.
 
2014-07-08 02:35:14 PM  

Theaetetus: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Biological Ali: The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.

So if a bakery were dead set against producing cakes that contain wording or imagery that they personally find offensive, that's ok, so long as they don't produce offensive cakes for anyone?

Because the bakery in question also refused other offensive cakes in the past.

Let's say the bakery was run by some Klan wizard, and he refused to make a sheet cake that had a message celebrating black history month, because he found it offensive... Would you be defending that in the same way?


If he had a history of refusing to make all offensive cakes, even for white people, yes.
 
2014-07-08 02:36:11 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: Let's say the bakery was run by some Klan wizard, and he refused to make a sheet cake that had a message celebrating black history month, because he found it offensive... Would you be defending that in the same way?

"I bet you'd defend a Klansman too!" is an interesting fallback point to retreat to, if not terribly surprising.


We've already pointed out the similarities between the fight for racial equality and the fight for sexual orientation equality, so, no, it's not terribly surprising at all. I notice you didn't answer... why?
 
2014-07-08 02:36:59 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Theaetetus: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Biological Ali: The proper analogy would be a bakery that's normally okay with producing cakes with marijuana leaves, profanity and genitalia on them, but refuses to make them for certain groups of people.

So if a bakery were dead set against producing cakes that contain wording or imagery that they personally find offensive, that's ok, so long as they don't produce offensive cakes for anyone?

Because the bakery in question also refused other offensive cakes in the past.

Let's say the bakery was run by some Klan wizard, and he refused to make a sheet cake that had a message celebrating black history month, because he found it offensive... Would you be defending that in the same way?

If he had a history of refusing to make all offensive cakes, even for white people, yes.


You're saying that a cake that celebrates black history month is offensive? O.o
 
2014-07-08 02:37:57 PM  

genner: From a legal stand point there's only one real question that needs to be answered.
If a hetro couple had ordered the same cake would they have refused service.
I thinks it's obvious that they would have. Therefore they were treated equally.


Legally, that's about as correct as "gay people have the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as heterosexual people, so they are treated equally."
 
2014-07-08 02:38:03 PM  

Theaetetus: the error in your statement that the bakery owner must have personal and intimate knowledge of a customer's sexual life in order to discriminate against them.


So prove the bakery owner assumed the customer was gay.
 
gja
2014-07-08 02:38:23 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
/took nearly 500 posts to get this in?
 
2014-07-08 02:39:57 PM  

Rigby-Reardon: Matthew 26:49
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.


If only gay marriage ceremonies ended with one of the two gays getting a purse full of silver, and the other nailed to a cross and tortured until death

...because that really would be marriage equality.

/Ba-doom, ksshh
//I'm here all week.
///Tip your waitress, try the veal.
 
2014-07-08 02:40:15 PM  

GoldSpider: Theaetetus: the error in your statement that the bakery owner must have personal and intimate knowledge of a customer's sexual life in order to discriminate against them.

So prove the bakery owner assumed the customer was gay.


First, you're conceding that the bakery owner doesn't have to know someone is gay to discriminate against them? You keep refusing to be pinned down on anything else, so I want to make sure we're on the same page before we proceed.
 
2014-07-08 02:40:28 PM  

Theaetetus: I notice you didn't answer... why?


Because my point, which I already made, doesn't require me to invite you to attack me as a Klan-sympathizer, as is clearly your intent with that kind of question.
 
2014-07-08 02:41:47 PM  

jst3p: You don't have the right to choose the political messages you will create or not? The guy who came up with the Obama logo couldn't tell the GoP he won't work for them? No gay person was discriminated against. He refused to create something with a message he disagreed with.

Don't get me wrong, I am for equal rights and I thought wedding cake guy was in the wrong, I just don't think this is the same situation.


Firstly, you're allowed (with some small exceptions perhaps) to legally discriminate based on political party. So that's not even in the same league here.

Secondly, if "refused to create a message he disagreed with" is your standard for what violates this guy's freedom of expression, the same could very much apply to wedding cakes (since he may well decide that he disagrees with any "message" that simply acknowledges that gay people are actually married).

This is why "Things I disagree with" is a fuzzy and meaningless standard to go by - the only sensible thing is to define the kinds of products the establishment normally provides in an objective way.
 
2014-07-08 02:41:50 PM