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(Major League Baseball)   Think you've seen it all with this season's MLB replay reviews? Well, Toronto asked for a replay review to have its runner called out. Umps reach a decision after the lightning fast time of 11 minutes. FARK: Oakland protested the game   (m.mlb.com) divider line 48
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1543 clicks; posted to Sports » on 04 Jul 2014 at 12:14 PM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



48 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-07-04 11:44:02 AM  
This is the biggest problem I see with IR in baseball. The catcher saw the first base umpire call the runner safe so he didn't bother to tag the runner, knowing it was a forceout. Maybe the catcher should have tagged the runner anyway (which he easily could have), but that's beside the point. Reversing the call doesn't give the catcher a chance to tag the runner instead of the base. Oh well.
 
2014-07-04 12:34:00 PM  
Whether he was tagged or not (he obviously was), the runner stepped well out of the baseline and should have been out anyway. I didn't sit through the entire video. I'm sure the announcers eventually picked up on that.
 
2014-07-04 12:39:07 PM  
This is a terrible application of review. The play of the catcher is dependent on the call made on the field as the play is unfolding.

An analogous situation in football is when there's a fumble, the defense runs it back for a touchdown, but the ref, thinking that the play is dead before the fumble, blows the whistle. If the play is then reviewed and it is decided that there actually was a fumble, the defense doesn't then get a touchdown, they get the ball at the spot of the recovery. The whistle blow meant the offense didn't bother to stop the run back.

The fair thing to do would be to call the tagged runner out and then to return the runners back to first, second and third.
 
2014-07-04 12:41:21 PM  

Zyng: Whether he was tagged or not (he obviously was), the runner stepped well out of the baseline and should have been out anyway. I didn't sit through the entire video. I'm sure the announcers eventually picked up on that.


Eventually? They picked up on it in the first replay they showed. Makes me wonder what video are the MLB officials looking at, and how is it that the TV station quickly have video which shows what went down?
 
2014-07-04 12:42:46 PM  
insano: The fair thing to do would be to call the tagged runner out and then to return the runners back to first, second and third.

I take that back. The force-out should stand, bases loaded. That is the call on the field.
 
2014-07-04 12:42:54 PM  
Can't say I have ever seen anything like that before. It does seem unfair that the catcher reacting to the safe call at first gets punished for the first base ump's mistake...
 
2014-07-04 12:53:08 PM  
insano:   I take that back. The force-out should stand, bases loaded. That is the call on the field.

Nope.  The catcher saw the safe sign being given by the 1B ump.  No reason for him to try to tag the runner coming in from third at the plate being a force would be still be on.  Because of the umpires mistake the result of the play should have been 1st & 3rd, 2 out.  (Runner on third should go back, runner going from first to second is out, batter is safe at first.
 
2014-07-04 12:56:17 PM  
Yeah, that's a tough one.  The sort of "continuation" issues that come up are iffy.

I'd lean towards calling it how they called it.  Get it "right".  Players will have to learn not to trust umps.  Which is iffy.

This becomes a big problem on, say, fly balls that are trapped versus barely caught, and what do you do as a runner tagging, etc.
 
2014-07-04 01:00:09 PM  
Catcher made the mistake of assuming things. Just follow thru and make the tag anyways even if it seems unnecessary at first.
 
2014-07-04 01:00:13 PM  
Also, I'm tired of managers being told what they can and can't argue.  Good on the umps for not immediately tossing Melvin here.

/still watching, so if Melvin gets tossed, I'll look silly.
 
2014-07-04 01:01:55 PM  
I've never seen that protest P sign.  That's amazing.
 
2014-07-04 01:12:55 PM  

Dinobot: Catcher made the mistake of assuming things. Just follow thru and make the tag anyways even if it seems unnecessary at first.


I have a feeling that if you tag a guy after forcing him out, he's likely to accuse you of violating an unwritten rule or perhaps go all Manny Machado on you.
 
2014-07-04 01:15:32 PM  
Since the rest of the play depended on what happened during the incorrect call, the play should simply not be reviewable.

/Jays fan
 
2014-07-04 01:16:12 PM  
When was the last time a protest actually worked? The pine tar game?
 
2014-07-04 01:40:31 PM  
Should have simply reset everything and ran the play again, as if the pitch never happened
 
2014-07-04 01:45:28 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Should have simply reset everything and ran the play again, as if the pitch never happened


Sometimes the schoolyard solutions are the best ones.  I think the A's would have been happy with that, and the Jays would have been classless not to accept.
 
2014-07-04 01:45:54 PM  

ElwoodCuse: When was the last time a protest actually worked? The pine tar game?


They'll never actually rule whether this protest was correct or not since it ended up being irrelevant
 
2014-07-04 01:48:01 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Should have simply reset everything and ran the play again, as if the pitch never happened


This.

And none of this matters anyway because they continue to bring out dickey after 7IP and +100 pitches. God farking damnit he had a good game and we're down a run. Come the fark on
 
2014-07-04 02:06:43 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Should have simply reset everything and ran the play again, as if the pitch never happened


Yeah, that would've been the fairest solution to everyone.
 
2014-07-04 02:13:41 PM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: insano:   I take that back. The force-out should stand, bases loaded. That is the call on the field.

Nope.  The catcher saw the safe sign being given by the 1B ump.  No reason for him to try to tag the runner coming in from third at the plate being a force would be still be on.  Because of the umpires mistake the result of the play should have been 1st & 3rd, 2 out.  (Runner on third should go back, runner going from first to second is out, batter is safe at first.


No, there is either a force out at home, or the runner going to second was tagged out. You can't have it both ways. In your proposed scenario, Oakland gets both the force out and the tag out and then you're screwing Toronto. If you reverse the ump's tag call and award the run, then you are screwing Oakland.

If, instead, you just keep the play as it was called on the field, i.e. the player at the plate is forced out, that is the correct call and neither team is being wrongly penalized for not anticipating Heisenberg ump.
 
2014-07-04 02:16:36 PM  

Dinobot: Catcher made the mistake of assuming things. Just follow thru and make the tag anyways even if it seems unnecessary at first.


On the replay from behind the plate the catcher could clearly see the 1B ump making a safe call on the runner advancing from 1st to 2nd.  He 'assumed' nothing.  HE KNEW from the call that runner was 'safe' (even though he clearly was out) and that there's a force at home with no need to apply a tag.  But even after the review they got it wrong.  As I stated previously, the correct call after the review should have been runners at 1st and 3rd, 2 out, and no run scored.
 
2014-07-04 02:19:23 PM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Nope. The catcher saw the safe sign being given by the 1B ump. No reason for him to try to tag the runner coming in from third at the plate being a force would be still be on. Because of the umpires mistake the result of the play should have been 1st & 3rd, 2 out. (Runner on third should go back, runner going from first to second is out, batter is safe at first.


Actually it'd have to be bases loaded. The guy from first is out, the batter is on first, the guys who were on second and third stay where they are, which is the exact result of not challenging (no tag, fielder's choice at home). So if there's no benefit to getting the call right, what good is it?

This is a weird scenario, and I don't know what I think should be done, clearly the catcher was influenced by the safe call, but there's no benefit to the challenge if the run isn't scored. Really the "do over" seems like the best resolution.
 
2014-07-04 02:19:33 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Should have simply reset everything and ran the play again, as if the pitch never happened


You talkin' 'bout a do-over?!
i1348.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-04 02:26:17 PM  

insano: This is a terrible application of review. The play of the catcher is dependent on the call made on the field as the play is unfolding.

An analogous situation in football is when there's a fumble, the defense runs it back for a touchdown, but the ref, thinking that the play is dead before the fumble, blows the whistle. If the play is then reviewed and it is decided that there actually was a fumble, the defense doesn't then get a touchdown, they get the ball at the spot of the recovery. The whistle blow meant the offense didn't bother to stop the run back.

The fair thing to do would be to call the tagged runner out and then to return the runners back to first, second and third.



Which is why, now, when there is even an appearance of a fumble, the defense will almost always pick the ball up and advance it (some even running into the endzone) and why the refs normally let the play go until completion unless they are 100% sure it's a dead ball because upon review, if it was a fumble the defense recovered and scored. If it's not, the ball is spotted where the player was down.

This was a big issue when fumbles became reviewable which is why now ALL change of possession plays are reviewed now. This is why you see refs letting things go and why the defense always picks up the ball. This is also why when DeSean Jackson threw the ball away on the 1 yard line in Dallas AND NO Dallas player picked the ball up the ball, upon review, was granted to the Eagles at the 1 yard line. If anyone Dallas player had picked it up and just stood there, or moved it a few yard before the refs blew the play dead they would have been awarded the ball.

Football players adapted so should baseball players.

I think from now on, in a situation such as this, the catcher should tag the runner just in case. Him attempting the tag on the 3rd base runner wouldn't have changed the risk involved.

and I showed this to my uncle who has been umpiring all levels of baseball (except Triple A and MLB) for 30 some odd years, in his opinion, the corrected call after the challenge was the correct call.
 
2014-07-04 02:29:36 PM  

Dinobot: Catcher made the mistake of assuming things. Just follow thru and make the tag anyways even if it seems unnecessary at first.


Which works in some cases, but tagging the runner out could also prevent you from throwing out a runner at another base (say he can beat the runner going to third).

Another example would be with one out;
- a hard ground ball to second who tries to tag the runner the ump calls out
- throw is to first double off the batter and end the inning (but there was a reasonable play to home or second for a double play)
- challenge determines that the second baseman did not tag the runner
- therefore the only out is at first and at least one run scored.
- you can't expect a team to pass up the easy out to end the inning just in case the ump messed up

Or simple as the umps call a fly ball a trap, all runners advance without tagging up. Call is reversed to a catch, now what happens?

That is where the issue arises, where the umpire's call affects the subsequent actions of the teams. You cannot expect players to play that cautiously.

Now I don't think this should stop replay or will be a big deal, but there has to be clear rules in place.

And I suspect the reason replay took so long wasn't so much determining whether the runner was out, but determining what corrective action to take.
 
2014-07-04 02:36:55 PM  

Dougie AXP: insano: This is a terrible application of review. The play of the catcher is dependent on the call made on the field as the play is unfolding.

An analogous situation in football is when there's a fumble, the defense runs it back for a touchdown, but the ref, thinking that the play is dead before the fumble, blows the whistle. If the play is then reviewed and it is decided that there actually was a fumble, the defense doesn't then get a touchdown, they get the ball at the spot of the recovery. The whistle blow meant the offense didn't bother to stop the run back.

The fair thing to do would be to call the tagged runner out and then to return the runners back to first, second and third.


Which is why, now, when there is even an appearance of a fumble, the defense will almost always pick the ball up and advance it (some even running into the endzone) and why the refs normally let the play go until completion unless they are 100% sure it's a dead ball because upon review, if it was a fumble the defense recovered and scored. If it's not, the ball is spotted where the player was down.

This was a big issue when fumbles became reviewable which is why now ALL change of possession plays are reviewed now. This is why you see refs letting things go and why the defense always picks up the ball. This is also why when DeSean Jackson threw the ball away on the 1 yard line in Dallas AND NO Dallas player picked the ball up the ball, upon review, was granted to the Eagles at the 1 yard line. If anyone Dallas player had picked it up and just stood there, or moved it a few yard before the refs blew the play dead they would have been awarded the ball.

Football players adapted so should baseball players.

I think from now on, in a situation such as this, the catcher should tag the runner just in case. Him attempting the tag on the 3rd base runner wouldn't have changed the risk involved.

and I showed this to my uncle who has been umpiring all levels of baseball (except Triple A and MLB) for 30 some odd years, in his opinion, the corrected call after the challenge was the correct call.


This makes me laugh due to how the bears reacted during week 17 of the rodger's forward pass fumble. They picked it up, put it down, and packers score
 
2014-07-04 02:37:55 PM  

Dougie AXP: I think from now on, in a situation such as this, the catcher should tag the runner just in case. Him attempting the tag on the 3rd base runner wouldn't have changed the risk involved.


Would there have to be a change in the unwritten rules to allow an infielder/catcher to tag a runner "just in case" so that it's not a beanable offence?

/It's actually a semi-serious question
//It's not kosher to apply the tag to a forced out runner, is it?
 
2014-07-04 02:39:44 PM  

Dougie AXP: insano: This is a terrible application of review. The play of the catcher is dependent on the call made on the field as the play is unfolding.

An analogous situation in football is when there's a fumble, the defense runs it back for a touchdown, but the ref, thinking that the play is dead before the fumble, blows the whistle. If the play is then reviewed and it is decided that there actually was a fumble, the defense doesn't then get a touchdown, they get the ball at the spot of the recovery. The whistle blow meant the offense didn't bother to stop the run back.

The fair thing to do would be to call the tagged runner out and then to return the runners back to first, second and third.


Which is why, now, when there is even an appearance of a fumble, the defense will almost always pick the ball up and advance it (some even running into the endzone) and why the refs normally let the play go until completion unless they are 100% sure it's a dead ball because upon review, if it was a fumble the defense recovered and scored. If it's not, the ball is spotted where the player was down.

This was a big issue when fumbles became reviewable which is why now ALL change of possession plays are reviewed now. This is why you see refs letting things go and why the defense always picks up the ball. This is also why when DeSean Jackson threw the ball away on the 1 yard line in Dallas AND NO Dallas player picked the ball up the ball, upon review, was granted to the Eagles at the 1 yard line. If anyone Dallas player had picked it up and just stood there, or moved it a few yard before the refs blew the play dead they would have been awarded the ball.

Football players adapted so should baseball players.

I think from now on, in a situation such as this, the catcher should tag the runner just in case. Him attempting the tag on the 3rd base runner wouldn't have changed the risk involved.

and I showed this to my uncle who has been umpiring all levels of baseball (except Triple A and ML ...



Last year's Chicago Bears would like a word with you.

/still can't believe they let the Packers score on Rodgers' forward fumble
//stupid baseball replay rules are stupid
///2 minute misconduct for excessive slashies
 
2014-07-04 02:41:09 PM  
thecpt:  if I had 5 bucks I'd throw it to you for getting in my mind and beating me to the post.  Well done, sir.
 
2014-07-04 02:47:56 PM  
All I cared about was that was the only run scored on a miserable offensive game for the Jays in which turned out to be the game that they lost the AL East lead. They better come out swinging hard this afternoon or this road trip could be the one that takes them back to fourth place.
 
2014-07-04 03:38:01 PM  

Cubs300: thecpt:  if I had 5 bucks I'd throw it to you for getting in my mind and beating me to the post.  Well done, sir.


These are the kindest words ever written to me on fark. Ironically, they were from a bears fan to pack fan.

Dogs living with cats
 
2014-07-04 03:40:23 PM  
Everything was so much simpler when we whined about them blowing the call and wishing for instant relay
 
2014-07-04 03:46:26 PM  
Tagging him at home would have been so frickin' easy.  Wonder if the whole "don't block the plate" rule is why he didn't try.  An old school catcher would've tried.
 
2014-07-04 03:47:42 PM  
Solution? Tag everyone, even when it is obviously a force play. Make MLB fix their goddamned half-assed replay system. Oh, and fire Bud Selig.
 
2014-07-04 03:53:21 PM  
Catcher screwed up and thought it was a force play.  Run scores, no big deal.  The 1st base referee made the wrong call, and the home plate umpire followed his lead and made the wrong call on the force play at home.
 
2014-07-04 04:09:43 PM  

ski9600: Catcher screwed up and thought it was a force play.


Again. No.  The UMPIRE waved the runner SAFE thinking he avoided the tag (which was overturned after the revue.)  so the catcher had EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE a force-out was (no tag)  WHILE the play was happening.

Run scores, no big deal.  The 1st base referee
 Referee?


Stopped reading right there.
 
2014-07-04 04:10:10 PM  

ski9600: Catcher screwed up and thought it was a force play.  Run scores, no big deal.  The 1st base referee made the wrong call, and the home plate umpire followed his lead and made the wrong call on the force play at home.


The catcher did not screw up. He saw the first base umpire signal "safe", and so he KNEW the force play was still on. Put the blame where it belongs.
 
2014-07-04 04:11:32 PM  

ski9600: Catcher screwed up and thought it was a force play.  Run scores, no big deal.  The 1st base referee made the wrong call, and the home plate umpire followed his lead and made the wrong call on the force play at home.


At the time of the play, it was a force out.  This is replay 101, you can't overturn a call that affects subsequent play without voiding the subsequent play.  If you change the call at first, it affects the play at home.  At that point, it's a dead ball.  Send the runners back to second and third.  The correct call is the base runner is out, no run scored, and runners on 1, 2, and 3.  I don't know if that's how the baseball rulebook is written, but that's how it should be written.
 
2014-07-04 04:15:03 PM  

Dougie AXP: Which is why, now, when there is even an appearance of a fumble, the defense will almost always pick the ball up and advance it (some even running into the endzone) and why the refs normally let the play go until completion unless they are 100% sure it's a dead ball because upon review, if it was a fumble the defense recovered and scored. If it's not, the ball is spotted where the player was down.


I agree.

But this reasoning doesn't work in baseball. Think of another situation: there's a runner on first and no outs, the batter hits a fly ball and the outfielder makes a diving catch (it's a close call, but the umpire calls it a catch). The outfielder then throws the ball to second base and the second baseman tags the base. What is the runner supposed to do!? If he assumes the umpire has made a correct call then he goes back to first. But if the umpire's call will be reversed on review, then he should run to second so as not to be forced out. It isn't clear, as it is in football, how the player should proceed. He can't just continue running the ball into the endzone like in football. He must rely on the umpire's call to determine what to do.

You can say the catcher should always tag the runner just in case, but it's not fair to ask the base-runner to anticipate every review scenario that might happen. That's why the ump's call on the field must stand when it influences subsequent play.
 
2014-07-04 04:37:26 PM  

insano: Dougie AXP: Which is why, now, when there is even an appearance of a fumble, the defense will almost always pick the ball up and advance it (some even running into the endzone) and why the refs normally let the play go until completion unless they are 100% sure it's a dead ball because upon review, if it was a fumble the defense recovered and scored. If it's not, the ball is spotted where the player was down.

I agree.

But this reasoning doesn't work in baseball. Think of another situation: there's a runner on first and no outs, the batter hits a fly ball and the outfielder makes a diving catch (it's a close call, but the umpire calls it a catch). The outfielder then throws the ball to second base and the second baseman tags the base. What is the runner supposed to do!? If he assumes the umpire has made a correct call then he goes back to first. But if the umpire's call will be reversed on review, then he should run to second so as not to be forced out. It isn't clear, as it is in football, how the player should proceed. He can't just continue running the ball into the endzone like in football. He must rely on the umpire's call to determine what to do.

You can say the catcher should always tag the runner just in case, but it's not fair to ask the base-runner to anticipate every review scenario that might happen. That's why the ump's call on the field must stand when it influences subsequent play.


It also isn't fair to ask the catcher (or any other player) to tag runners on force plays. In this case it may not matter, but what if there is a subsequent play at another base? What if this play occurred at second and the runner onthird was trying to score. Going through the motion of tagging a runner takes time and puts you in an awkward position to throw.
 
2014-07-04 06:26:58 PM  
Who in the fark, in their right mind, is going to watch this horsesh*t for 11:19 over this crap?
 
2014-07-04 06:28:45 PM  

Dafatone: I've never seen that protest P sign.  That's amazing.


Yep... I've been watching baseball since 1981, and only saw that for the first time about a year ago.  I guess nowadays with a million TV cameras and the like they catch that stuff more often than back in the day.
 
2014-07-04 06:30:56 PM  

dywed88: insano: Dougie AXP: Which is why, now, when there is even an appearance of a fumble, the defense will almost always pick the ball up and advance it (some even running into the endzone) and why the refs normally let the play go until completion unless they are 100% sure it's a dead ball because upon review, if it was a fumble the defense recovered and scored. If it's not, the ball is spotted where the player was down.

I agree.

But this reasoning doesn't work in baseball. Think of another situation: there's a runner on first and no outs, the batter hits a fly ball and the outfielder makes a diving catch (it's a close call, but the umpire calls it a catch). The outfielder then throws the ball to second base and the second baseman tags the base. What is the runner supposed to do!? If he assumes the umpire has made a correct call then he goes back to first. But if the umpire's call will be reversed on review, then he should run to second so as not to be forced out. It isn't clear, as it is in football, how the player should proceed. He can't just continue running the ball into the endzone like in football. He must rely on the umpire's call to determine what to do.

You can say the catcher should always tag the runner just in case, but it's not fair to ask the base-runner to anticipate every review scenario that might happen. That's why the ump's call on the field must stand when it influences subsequent play.

It also isn't fair to ask the catcher (or any other player) to tag runners on force plays. In this case it may not matter, but what if there is a subsequent play at another base? What if this play occurred at second and the runner onthird was trying to score. Going through the motion of tagging a runner takes time and puts you in an awkward position to throw.


Yeah, I agree.  That's going to slowly become the strategy... ignore the ump's call and act as if he's wrong and carry on with the play as if he's wrong... because it can now be reviewed.

Much like football... a play may be ruled dead, but often times the guy with the ball runs into the endzone just in case.
 
2014-07-04 07:02:25 PM  

insano: No, there is either a force out at home, or the runner going to second was tagged out. You can't have it both ways. In your proposed scenario, Oakland gets both the force out and the tag out and then you're screwing Toronto. If you reverse the ump's tag call and award the run, then you are screwing Oakland.

If, instead, you just keep the play as it was called on the field, i.e. the player at the plate is forced out, that is the correct call and neither team is being wrongly penalized for not anticipating Heisenberg ump.


But Oakland really got screwed from the original bad call, because if the ump calls it correctly the guy is out between first and second, and more than likely Encarnacion is out at the plate via tag.  So sending him back to 3rd would have basically been the way to have the teams get the least screwed over by yet another bad umpiring call.

However, I actually would go back to one of your previous points, that this should not be reviewable.  You can't make changes to calls in the middle of the play that screw up how the rest of the play progresses.
 
2014-07-05 01:00:41 AM  
OK, correct my basic understanding of baseball, but I thought if the base the runner was advancing to was tagged, and they can't retreat back to their previous base, they're out.  So therefore both runners should've been out, especially since baseball banned running into the catcher.
 
2014-07-05 01:56:04 AM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: ski9600: Catcher screwed up and thought it was a force play.  Run scores, no big deal.  The 1st base referee made the wrong call, and the home plate umpire followed his lead and made the wrong call on the force play at home.

The catcher did not screw up. He saw the first base umpire signal "safe", and so he KNEW the force play was still on. Put the blame where it belongs.


insano: You can say the catcher should always tag the runner just in case, but it's not fair to ask the base-runner to anticipate every review scenario that might happen. That's why the ump's call on the field must stand when it influences subsequent play.


My first thought after watching the replay was
"That's . . . . . . . . . awesome!"

What a crazy scenario. Brilliant managing.


Others have put the two options for replay situations like this very nicely -
EITHER
It's a dead ball at the point of the changed call or
OR
The call on the field must stand if the call changes subsequent play


As for the football comparisons can we just acknowledge that this is a different game. I love football, but not everything in the world is like football.
 
2014-07-05 02:57:48 AM  

bluorangefyre: OK, correct my basic understanding of baseball, but I thought if the base the runner was advancing to was tagged, and they can't retreat back to their previous base, they're out.  So therefore both runners should've been out, especially since baseball banned running into the catcher.


Once that tag happened on the running leaving first, 2nd base was open. Therefore the runners who had just left second and third were capable of retreating to their starting bases. That's why the force play was no longer valid at home.

We're gonna start seeing fielders tagging people "just in case" from now on. Shouldn't be too big of a deal (unless you're Manny Machado) until someone hurts themselves sliding to avoid a tag that was not needed.
 
2014-07-05 05:43:10 AM  

ski9600: Catcher screwed up and thought it was a force play.


The catcher did not "screw up".  He thought it was a force play because it was a force play.
 
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