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(LA Times)   Sad: Veteran dies after waiting 30 minutes for an ambulance. Fark: He was in a VA hospital's cafeteria, 500 yards away from the ER. Sad tag grudgingly defers to the Fail tag   (latimes.com) divider line 139
    More: Fail, Albuquerque VA, va hospitals, Office of Special Counsel  
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5556 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jul 2014 at 8:45 AM (2 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-04 08:18:15 AM
I'm surprised the VA hospital had an emergency room at all.  In my area, the VA hospitals closed them (expense, misuse).   Veterans are told to go to local community ERs and the VA will pay provided the veteran is eligible.
 
2014-07-04 08:47:50 AM
In America we support our troops until it comes time to actually support our troops.  Happy Birthday USA.
 
2014-07-04 08:49:55 AM
I just know this is somehow Obama's fault.
 
2014-07-04 08:50:35 AM
If only there were people close by that could have negated the need for an ambulance
 
2014-07-04 08:52:45 AM
Unfortunately this is not an uncommon arrangement and standard procedure. Outpatient areas cannot handle emergencies, because they are OP services, and you cannot drag a coding patient through the OP areas doing chest compressions on the way to the ED. You have to wait for EMS to transport them. Outpatient surgery centers fall in this boat.

All the same, poor guy....
 
2014-07-04 08:52:55 AM

dookdookdook: I just know this is somehow Obama's fault.


Well duh, that just goes without saying.

/but we'll say it anyway
//over and over and over
///and louder and louder and louder
 
2014-07-04 08:54:43 AM
I was in a clinic waiting for my doctor appointment. It was on the first floor of a hospital, but the hospital had closed its ER, because the other two on Staten Island were sufficient.

A woman said she needed to go to the ER. They tried to tell her to call 911 for an ambulance, and could not make her understand that hospital doesn't necessarily mean ER.

Not every medical worker is a trained in trauma care.
 
2014-07-04 08:54:59 AM
If only there were some kind of medical professionals nearby, this wouldn't have happened.
 
2014-07-04 08:55:33 AM

dookdookdook: I just know this is somehow Obama's fault.


B-b-b-but Bush!
 
2014-07-04 08:55:53 AM

Pants full of macaroni!!: dookdookdook: I just know this is somehow Obama's fault.

Well duh, that just goes without saying.

/but we'll say it anyway
//over and over and over
///and louder and louder and louder


Well of course you will.  That's how you make it become true!
 
2014-07-04 08:56:23 AM

AMonkey'sUncle: I was in a clinic waiting for my doctor appointment. It was on the first floor of a hospital, but the hospital had closed its ER, because the other two on Staten Island were sufficient.

A woman said she needed to go to the ER. They tried to tell her to call 911 for an ambulance, and could not make her understand that hospital doesn't necessarily mean ER.

Not every medical worker is a trained in trauma care.


Not relevant to the article of this but I provide to you the appreciation for the lame telling of this story.
 
2014-07-04 08:56:51 AM
His last words were "Thanks Obama".
 
2014-07-04 08:59:07 AM

AMonkey'sUncle: Not every medical worker is a trained in trauma care.


I'm pretty sure every one of them at least has basic CPR skills.
What about AEDs ? They pretty much even have them at gas stations these days ffs. The building I work in has them mounted all over the farking place. It's not a hospital.
 
2014-07-04 08:59:27 AM

whatsupchuck: In America we support our troops until it comes time to actually support our troops.  Happy Birthday USA.


If only the VA sold more bumper stickers and ribbon magnets.  Then he would have got the medical care he needed.
 
2014-07-04 09:03:27 AM

abhorrent1: AMonkey'sUncle: Not every medical worker is a trained in trauma care.

I'm pretty sure every one of them at least has basic CPR skills.
What about AEDs ? They pretty much even have them at gas stations these days ffs. The building I work in has them mounted all over the farking place. It's not a hospital.


"Kirtland Air Force Medical Group personnel performed CPR until the ambulance arrived, VA spokeswoman Sonja Brown said. "

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-veteran-dies-in-hos pi tal-20140703-story.html
 
2014-07-04 09:05:58 AM

whatsupchuck: In America we support our troops until it comes time to actually support our troops.  Happy Birthday USA.


www.naderlibrary.com

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."
 
2014-07-04 09:19:49 AM
Well, 500 yards is over a quarter mile.  I know it's popular to bash the VA, but this seems more like an ambulance company/emergency dispatches concern.
 
2014-07-04 09:20:04 AM

UNC_Samurai: whatsupchuck: In America we support our troops until it comes time to actually support our troops.  Happy Birthday USA.



"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."


Semper Fi, Smedley Butler.
 
2014-07-04 09:28:29 AM
Having worked in the field, I can assure you that the VA provides the very worst in medical care and the worst doctors that are available.
 
2014-07-04 09:30:58 AM
Just another thing to add to the list of things the government can't do to save their lives.


social security system, postal system, VA hospital system, health insurance,crumbling infrastructure, outdated electrical grid, substandard national data network

but its totally cool to blow Trillions of dollars bringing "peace" to a side of the world that wishes us dead.
 
2014-07-04 09:31:36 AM
Murderers.
 
2014-07-04 09:32:39 AM

SpdrJay: Having worked in the field, I can assure you that the VA provides the very worst in medical care and the worst doctors that are available.


When your abilities are so lacking that you can't keep a job in the real world, go to work for the government.
 
2014-07-04 09:33:47 AM
Ok, here is what I thought. There is a law called EMTALA that was inacted in part so ER's could not transfer patients to other hospitals solely on there insurance status, usually a lack there of. Because of this, once an ambulance arrives on hospital property, the patient in now under the care of the hospital even if they haven't given over patient care. So, if this guy was on hospital property when he collapsed then the hospital is responsible for the patient. Why should they hand off care to an ambulance? ( which would be a down grade of care ie. Doctor vs. Medic). Wouldn't they call a "code blue" and nurses and doctors from the ER respond?
 
2014-07-04 09:34:36 AM

abhorrent1: I'm pretty sure every one of them at least has basic CPR skills.
What about AEDs ? They pretty much even have them at gas stations these days ffs. The building I work in has them mounted all over the farking place. It's not a hospital.


Your assuming that this person arrested from a cause that would have been treatable with an AED. At this point, all we know is someone "collapsed" in an out-of-hospital cafeteria, and that EMS had a long response time. Other than that,  everything is speculation at this point.

Urgent Care and outpatient clinic staff are not allowed by law to throw someone on a bed and dash them across the street and down the road to an ER. It's a fact of life. The stupidest comments I've read about this are along the lines of "Why didn't they just throw him in a car or a wheelchair".

We don't really know anything other than those parts, unless you've got an article that has more information, I'd love to read it.
 
2014-07-04 09:34:55 AM
WE'RE NUMBER 1!

img.fark.net

/except in healthcare, education, or anything else that matters
 
2014-07-04 09:35:13 AM
My wife said the same thing happened in the for-profit hospital that she worked in. Someone died in the parking lot because they were not allowed to go out and get them.
 
2014-07-04 09:35:13 AM
I saw a guy pass out in the auditorium of a hospital complex; the auditorium was probably 150 feet from the ER entrance. He had three nurses and two doctors looking after him within a few moments. But nobody brought a gurney or just a wheelchair over from E.R.; they instead called and waited for an ambulance, which means a fire truck with paramedics also arrived. The poor guy regained consciousness and wound up having to recite his medical history about six times in a row while the three nurses, two doctors, one paramedic, and two ambulance staff, quizzed him and finally rolled him outside the building, drove around the block, and delivered him to ER admitting.  Took 45 minutes and it was a circus.
 
2014-07-04 09:36:11 AM

Active introvert: Ok, here is what I thought. There is a law called EMTALA that was inacted in part so ER's could not transfer patients to other hospitals solely on there insurance status, usually a lack there of. Because of this, once an ambulance arrives on hospital property, the patient in now under the care of the hospital even if they haven't given over patient care. So, if this guy was on hospital property when he collapsed then the hospital is responsible for the patient. Why should they hand off care to an ambulance? ( which would be a down grade of care ie. Doctor vs. Medic). Wouldn't they call a "code blue" and nurses and doctors from the ER respond?


Does being in the cafeteria count as being under medical care?
 
2014-07-04 09:37:57 AM

Active introvert: Because of this, once an ambulance arrives on hospital property, the patient in now under the care of the hospital even if they haven't given over patient care. So, if this guy was on hospital property when he collapsed then the hospital is responsible for the patient. Why should they hand off care to an ambulance?


It has nothing to do with EMTALA. COBRA covers this instance. The cafeteria is an off-site facility, akin to an urgent care or outpatient clinic. In that case, there was likely no one there other than a medical response team to respond with a code cart and AED.

 

Active introvert: ( which would be a down grade of care ie. Doctor vs. Medic). Wouldn't they call a "code blue" and nurses and doctors from the ER respond?


Because the facility in question was a quarter mile away from the actual hospital. It was an off-site Doctor Office/Urgent Care building. In addition, EMS transfer from an outside clinic or lower level facility is not a "downgrade of care" unless the patient in question is coming from an actual ER or Hospital and is in active labor, or is unstable in an area where stabilization services can be reasonably provided versus requires transfer.
 
2014-07-04 09:37:59 AM
So did he die in the caf at the 30 min point with no EMS response or did he get picked up at the 30 min point and died in emergency care some time later (minutes/hours/days)?

Maybe a reporter should have written this article.
 
2014-07-04 09:38:24 AM

Ker_Thwap: Active introvert: Ok, here is what I thought. There is a law called EMTALA that was inacted in part so ER's could not transfer patients to other hospitals solely on there insurance status, usually a lack there of. Because of this, once an ambulance arrives on hospital property, the patient in now under the care of the hospital even if they haven't given over patient care. So, if this guy was on hospital property when he collapsed then the hospital is responsible for the patient. Why should they hand off care to an ambulance? ( which would be a down grade of care ie. Doctor vs. Medic). Wouldn't they call a "code blue" and nurses and doctors from the ER respond?

Does being in the cafeteria count as being under medical care?


I'm not sure it matters where is was as long as he was on hospital property. Do the call an ambulance for an emergency in the Cath lab or pre-op?
 
2014-07-04 09:38:35 AM
The VA is awesome in Northern California. I received a free dental implant.  Not to mention you get in right away all the time. These stories are not reflective of the truth.

/100% disabled Marine so suck it.
 
2014-07-04 09:40:34 AM

Active introvert: I'm not sure it matters where is was as long as he was on hospital property. Do the call an ambulance for an emergency in the Cath lab or pre-op?


Yes, it does matter.

I'll give you an example.

Methodist University Hospital is a Level II Trauma, Stroke/Cardiac Center in the Memphis Downtown Area. Methodist Extended Care Hospital (A rehab hospital) is across Union Avenue, connected with Methodist University by a skybridge. In the event of a cardiac arrest or unstable patient, they still call 911 and have Memphis Fire transport their patients  - even though it is connected with a high level facility, the patient has to be transferred off-site to get to the hospital in the first place.
 
2014-07-04 09:45:23 AM

smunns: The VA is awesome in Northern California. I received a free dental implant.  Not to mention you get in right away all the time. These stories are not reflective of the truth.

/100% disabled Marine so suck it.


Truth and normalcy don't make the headlines, lies and exceptions do.

\and personally, I would've asked them whether they wanted the backlash for letting him die there or for being fired for breaking a dumb policy and begun dragging him if need be
\\then again, that's why I could never, ever work in the medical field - I wouldn't give a rat's ass about laws if it meant saving someone's life
 
2014-07-04 09:48:21 AM
 
2014-07-04 09:48:39 AM
Albuquerque Ambulance is not affiliated with the Veterans Administration.

Thanks Obama
 
2014-07-04 09:49:14 AM

smunns: The VA is awesome in Northern California. I received a free dental implant.  Not to mention you get in right away all the time. These stories are not reflective of the truth.

/100% disabled Marine so suck it.


Took me almost 9 months after I got back from Iraq to get seen.

The biggest issue with the VA right now is that a lot of people are coming back from deployments, especially from Reserve or Guard units, and the facilities aren't staffed or equipped to deal with the increased number of veterans with medical issues.  Another part of the war that wasn't paid for.
 
2014-07-04 09:50:01 AM
Welcome to big bureaucracy in health care. Obviously we need more government in our health care.
 
2014-07-04 09:50:34 AM

doglover: WE'RE NUMBER 1!

[img.fark.net image 500x354]

/except in healthcare, education, or anything else that matters


If that 2-year-old girl had had one of those, her brother wouldn't have shot her.

/Too soon?
 
2014-07-04 09:51:07 AM

RedPhoenix122: smunns: The VA is awesome in Northern California. I received a free dental implant.  Not to mention you get in right away all the time. These stories are not reflective of the truth.

/100% disabled Marine so suck it.

Took me almost 9 months after I got back from Iraq to get seen.

The biggest issue with the VA right now is that a lot of people are coming back from deployments, especially from Reserve or Guard units, and the facilities aren't staffed or equipped to deal with the increased number of veterans with medical issues.  Another part of the war that wasn't paid for.


It took you 9 months to get seen?

I think the larger question here is how you got invisible in the first place.
 
2014-07-04 09:52:34 AM

hardinparamedic: FriarReb98: begun dragging him if need be

And then you've completely guaranteed he will die.


Again, never going into medical, so wouldn't have known that. At least I would've tried something instead of the shiat-tastic VA.
 
2014-07-04 09:55:20 AM

SpdrJay: It took you 9 months to get seen?

I think the larger question here is how you got invisible in the first place.


Had to wait for different approvals.
 
2014-07-04 09:58:34 AM

FriarReb98: At least I would've tried something instead of the shiat-tastic VA.


That's the thing. What would you have done differently? I mean, honestly. Throwing out the shiattacular articles on this whole event that leave out the fact that this building was actually a quarter mile away almost from the actual hospital, and the fact that members of an Air Force medical care team were right there doing CPR and providing pre-arrival care (Most Military Base Fire Departments also provide ALS response care - Paramedics on the pumper), all we know is that it took Albuquerque EMS 30 minutes to get a unit on scene.

The moment you decide to transport this person in cardiac arrest, you have decided two things:

1) The need to get to surgical intervention to perform an emergent skill, such as pericardiocentesis, resuscitative ECMO in a limited number of situations, bone flapping of the skull, or an aortic cross-clamp is so great that you're willing to sacrifice CPR efficiency in a moving ambulance
2) They're dead, and you just don't want to pronounce them yet.

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but in many cases there isn't anything you can do to change it, other than provide CPR before EMS arrival, and hope there is a reversible cause.

Even if EMS had a five minute response time, they would not have (or should not have) scooped this guy up and ran with him. And definitely not to a VA ER.
 
2014-07-04 09:58:50 AM

FriarReb98: At least I would've tried something instead of the shiat-tastic VA.


Like giving him CPR until the ambulance arrived (which is what they did).
 
2014-07-04 09:59:26 AM

Earguy: I'm surprised the VA hospital had an emergency room at all.  In my area, the VA hospitals closed them (expense, misuse).   Veterans are told to go to local community ERs and the VA will pay provided the veteran is eligible.


This.  There are two VA hospitals in this city, both closed their ER's long before I moved to town.  I just thought VA hospitals didn't have ER's at all.
 
2014-07-04 10:01:41 AM

Silverstaff: This.  There are two VA hospitals in this city, both closed their ER's long before I moved to town.  I just thought VA hospitals didn't have ER's at all.


The local VA does not provide ANY emergent surgical, cardiac or neurological services. They will take minor medical emergencies, and are a psychiatric intake center for vets in psychiatric crisis. Everything else they divert either to the RegionalOne (Trauma/OB) or Methodist Univeristy (Surgical,Neuro or Cardiac).

Most VAs period do not have the in house resources to deal with emergencies in an ER/Acute Care setting unless the patient is already an in patient. (Exceptional ICU and post-op care)

/Flight Paramedic I work with just got his RN and went to work for the VA's ICU.
//ICU is great. Floor nursing sucks according to him.
 
2014-07-04 10:03:59 AM

Ker_Thwap: Well, 500 yards is over a quarter mile.  I know it's popular to bash the VA, but this seems more like an ambulance company/emergency dispatches concern.


If only there were some type of stretcher or chair on wheels on which patients could be moved.
 
2014-07-04 10:04:46 AM

dookdookdook: I just know this is somehow Obama's fault.


Of Course not... it is never his fault .. it's fark and it's always Bush's fault. Why in the world would it be the sitting president's fault who's been there for the last 6 yrs?
It's been an known issues of the VA's incompetence for the last 14 + years and no one ... even Obama has lifted a figure to help. And he wanted to he could of easily made this a big issues like obamacare .. but I guess it is easier to point to others and blame than take the initiative yourself.... ah yes.. leading from behind once again.
 
2014-07-04 10:05:04 AM
I am amazed people are still surprised by this kind of thing.

We only SAY we care about children and veterans. No one will ever pony up the dough to actually take care of them, especially tea bagger 'patriots'.
 
2014-07-04 10:06:21 AM

dookdookdook: I just know this is somehow Obama's fault.


Well, it is someone's fault... we could blame the vets I suppose but that doesn't seem right.
 
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