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(Science Daily)   Researchers on ancient civilizations having lots of sex: it was a trap   (sciencedaily.com ) divider line 30
    More: Obvious  
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4236 clicks; posted to Geek » on 02 Jul 2014 at 1:18 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-02 09:53:40 AM  
So when you're not having to go out and spend all day, every day looking for something to eat, you stay home and spend more time makin' babies? "Awww yeah. I got a whole bushel of corn, and we got nowhere to go."
 
2014-07-02 10:59:20 AM  
If they had the internet porn back then, it wouldn't have happened.
 
2014-07-02 11:56:06 AM  
mormonbeliefs.org

Hi guys, just doin' the lards work.
 
2014-07-02 01:23:10 PM  
I should have went to school to research ancient societies.  That sounds like one heck of a perk for the major.
 
2014-07-02 01:26:51 PM  
Several Amerindian groups seem to have experienced similar population crashes when their growth outstripped their ability to support said population.
 
2014-07-02 01:28:46 PM  
"Researchers have sketched out one of the greatest baby booms in North American history, a centuries-long 'growth blip' among southwestern Native Americans between 500 to 1300 A.D "

Civilization, subby???

I remember my history teacher telling me that a civilization require 2 items: Cities and written records.

Did the SW Native Americans have any of these?
 
2014-07-02 01:40:29 PM  

Mantour: "Researchers have sketched out one of the greatest baby booms in North American history, a centuries-long 'growth blip' among southwestern Native Americans between 500 to 1300 A.D "

Civilization, subby???

I remember my history teacher telling me that a civilization require 2 items: Cities and written records.

Did the SW Native Americans have any of these?


Yes.
 
2014-07-02 01:44:04 PM  

Lonestar: If they had the internet porn back then, it wouldn't have happened.


Sexy, sexy petroglyphs.
 
2014-07-02 01:46:09 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Several Amerindian groups seem to have experienced similar population crashes when their growth outstripped their ability to support said population.


No. Native cultures almost always sustainably live within their means - otherwise they would crash in a few generations.

What cause crashes is an ecological change (for these SW Native Americans a prolonged drought)  and maybe cultural inertia against changing their "traditional" ways of living. Of course the "ecological change" may by caused by the culture (environmental destruction, one case being soil salinization caused by irrigation) but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
 
2014-07-02 01:46:10 PM  
meat0918

Yes.

I'd say they had population centers (cities), but I don't recall any writing.
 
2014-07-02 01:53:13 PM  
HairBolus

No.

Yes.

What cause crashes is an ecological change (for these SW Native Americans a prolonged drought) and maybe cultural inertia against changing their "traditional" ways of living. Of course the "ecological change" may by caused by the culture (environmental destruction, one case being soil salinization caused by irrigation) but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

So in other words...yes.
 
2014-07-02 01:56:56 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: meat0918

Yes.

I'd say they had population centers (cities), but I don't recall any writing.


I thought they had petroglyphs?
 
2014-07-02 02:02:40 PM  
meat0918

I thought they had petroglyphs?

Hrrrm. I don't recall, but you're probably right if you do. I don't see why they couldn't, at any rate. People to the south definitely did, in complex forms, so...
 
2014-07-02 02:35:07 PM  

Mantour: I remember my history teacher telling me that a civilization require 2 items: Cities and written records


That's mighty white of him. Sounds like he would also claim the natural necessity of a superior ruling cast/class. His definition excludes lots of groups called and studied as civilizations. A very common way of distinguishing various civilizations is through pottery styles which has been done all over the world and in the SW US.

Writing evolved out of accounting practices - it got institutionalized in large cultures to keep track of paying taxes to the state. The pueblo cultures probably had some tax system though there they seem to have left no durable traces of it.

A better definition in his sense would be "An somewhat advanced civilization is defined by paying taxes".
 
2014-07-02 02:38:06 PM  
HairBolus

That's mighty white of him.

Or brown, given that people in the Middle East had writing for centuries before white people.
 
2014-07-02 04:10:33 PM  

HairBolus: Mantour: I remember my history teacher telling me that a civilization require 2 items: Cities and written records

That's mighty white of him. Sounds like he would also claim the natural necessity of a superior ruling cast/class. His definition excludes lots of groups called and studied as civilizations. A very common way of distinguishing various civilizations is through pottery styles which has been done all over the world and in the SW US.

Writing evolved out of accounting practices - it got institutionalized in large cultures to keep track of paying taxes to the state. The pueblo cultures probably had some tax system though there they seem to have left no durable traces of it.

A better definition in his sense would be "An somewhat advanced civilization is defined by paying taxes".


Not too whitey.  He LOVED talking about the city of Ur, the Tigris-Euphrates and Assyrian civilization, because beer.

"An somewhat advanced civilization is defined by beer"
 
2014-07-02 04:22:09 PM  
The first time you do anything you'll do it wrong. Wronger than the next try, anyway.

It's not surprising they had no idea of population regulation. There was no one to talk to who had seen that many people sitting around eating grass seeds in one place. They had no idea you couldn't just go on forever.
 
2014-07-02 04:49:48 PM  
well, duh.  If you build a granary you should be prepared to whip the pop back down every once in a while or build an army of settlers
 
2014-07-02 05:14:29 PM  

Mantour: I remember my history teacher telling me that a civilization require 2 items: Cities and written records.


Civilization doesn't require those things.

/it requires Roads, Irrigation, Mining, and sometimes Alphabet and Bronze Working. Build your first city near a river or water source, then you need to research Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism so you can get Monarchy and upgrade your government early.
 
2014-07-02 05:36:21 PM  

HairBolus: Facetious_Speciest: Several Amerindian groups seem to have experienced similar population crashes when their growth outstripped their ability to support said population.

No. Native cultures almost always sustainably live within their means - otherwise they would crash in a few generations.

What cause crashes is an ecological change (for these SW Native Americans a prolonged drought)  and maybe cultural inertia against changing their "traditional" ways of living. Of course the "ecological change" may by caused by the culture (environmental destruction, one case being soil salinization caused by irrigation) but that doesn't seem to be the case here.


Umm, no.  The ecological change was frequently human caused, and often went with legends of how the group had stopped living "correctly" and thus was to be punished.  The people who lived in this area were semi-nomadic: they'd build buildings, live in them for ~100 years and then move on when they had basically used up the local resources.

If you get a chance go visit the Wupatki National Monument which has a lot on this.  (It's one of our favorite places and we just took the kids last month)   Farming in the desert is damn near impossible- they got a bonus of a local volcano that dropped some water conserving ash on their fields, but once they lost it due to intensive farming they had to move on.
 
2014-07-02 05:48:45 PM  

Plant Rights Activist: well, duh.  If you build a granary you should be prepared to whip the pop back down every once in a while or build an army of settlers


I haven't played anything but 4 in a while ... did building settlers always cause population to not grow?
 
2014-07-02 06:24:18 PM  

Plant Rights Activist: well, duh.  If you build a granary you should be prepared to whip the pop back down every once in a while or build an army of settlers


Depending on start location, you can keep up slow and steady growth until techs like refrigeration start pushing the limits up. Wonders are also a factor.

@zarberg: "I haven't played anything but 4 in a while ... did building settlers always cause population to not grow? "

Used to cost you a population point to make a settler.
 
2014-07-02 06:36:31 PM  
My waifu has p0n0s?!?
 
2014-07-02 06:53:59 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: HairBolus: Facetious_Speciest: Several Amerindian groups seem to have experienced similar population crashes when their growth outstripped their ability to support said population.

No. Native cultures almost always sustainably live within their means - otherwise they would crash in a few generations.

What cause crashes is an ecological change (for these SW Native Americans a prolonged drought)  and maybe cultural inertia against changing their "traditional" ways of living. Of course the "ecological change" may by caused by the culture (environmental destruction, one case being soil salinization caused by irrigation) but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Umm, no.  The ecological change was frequently human caused, and often went with legends of how the group had stopped living "correctly" and thus was to be punished.  The people who lived in this area were semi-nomadic: they'd build buildings, live in them for ~100 years and then move on when they had basically used up the local resources.


umm, no. Their practice of moving around (if they did) was sustainable until the severe drought hit. While it is common for people to blame themselves if something bad happens they were not responsible for the drought.

Consider the US dust bowl. It's cause was the drought from 1931-1939. The dust however resulted from over and bad farming but the farming didn't cause the drought. It is possible the bad farming prolonged the drought or led to record high temperatures (black dust does absorb sunlight well) but I've never seen this claimed. Once it started raining again in 1939 the dust bowl areas quickly reverted to "normal".
 
2014-07-02 08:48:53 PM  
HairBolus:  The pueblo cultures probably had some tax system though there they seem to have left no durable traces of it.

A better definition in his sense would be "An somewhat advanced civilization is defined by paying taxes".


So... you agree? You just wanted to rant against The Man.
 
2014-07-02 09:08:20 PM  

HairBolus: Consider the US dust bowl. It's cause was the drought from 1931-1939. The dust however resulted from over and bad farming but the farming didn't cause the drought. It is possible the bad farming prolonged the drought or led to record high temperatures (black dust does absorb sunlight well) but I've never seen this claimed. Once it started raining again in 1939 the dust bowl areas quickly reverted to "normal".


Actually, the dust bowl was largely the result of the Depression itself. Food prices back then fluctuated like any other market commodity, and farmers frequently switched crops to maximize returns. When the market crashed, farmers were forced to overproduce to get the same returns that they were getting before the crash, which they needed to pay off banks eager to repossess their land, and that depleted the soil. The dry spell didn't help, but the dust bowl was largely due to over-farming to maximize yields.

In 1935, the Farm Bill was implemented which controlled food prices and made sure, through subsidies, that food wasn't subject to the same catastrophic market swings that everything else was. These regulations helped stabilize farming and even compelled farmers to grow less valuable crops (which is good for everybody -- more variety in our food).

The Farm Bill has since been hijacked by Agricultural lobbyists, but that's another argument.
 
2014-07-02 09:44:15 PM  

Ishkur: HairBolus: Consider the US dust bowl. It's cause was the drought from 1931-1939. The dust however resulted from over and bad farming but the farming didn't cause the drought. It is possible the bad farming prolonged the drought or led to record high temperatures (black dust does absorb sunlight well) but I've never seen this claimed. Once it started raining again in 1939 the dust bowl areas quickly reverted to "normal".

Actually, the dust bowl was largely the result of the Depression itself. Food prices back then fluctuated like any other market commodity, and farmers frequently switched crops to maximize returns. When the market crashed, farmers were forced to overproduce to get the same returns that they were getting before the crash, which they needed to pay off banks eager to repossess their land, and that depleted the soil. The dry spell didn't help, but the dust bowl was largely due to over-farming to maximize yields.


If there wasn't a 10 year drought there never would have been a dust bowl. This is not to excuse the farming but nobody realized that that would cause a dust disaster during a drought.
 
2014-07-02 10:04:11 PM  
Facetious_Speciest: meat0918

Yes.

I'd say they had population centers (cities), but I don't recall any writing.


The Cherokee have a "Western Style" written language.

Also, what do you think all those Mayan and Aztec carvings are?
 
2014-07-02 10:10:56 PM  
Prophet of Loss

The Cherokee have a "Western Style" written language.

The Cherokee are not the issue here, dude.

Seriously, though, they're not. They lived waaaay far away from where we're talking about.

Also, what do you think all those Mayan and Aztec carvings are?

Already discussed hours ago.
 
2014-07-02 10:23:23 PM  

HairBolus: If there wasn't a 10 year drought there never would have been a dust bowl.


The drought really only affected the high plains west of the 100th meridian which were already semi-arid and so were used to little rainfall. But falling food prices and crop failures due to over-farming was systemic everywhere, even Europe and Asia.
 
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