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(Huffington Post)   Hobby Lobby called out for hypocrisy... by Christians   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 336
    More: Obvious, Hobby Lobby, The Christian Post, emergency contraception, born-again christian, hypocrisy, U.S. Supreme Court  
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8748 clicks; posted to Business » on 01 Jul 2014 at 7:53 PM (11 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-01 05:43:42 PM
FTA:
"Other Christian columnists, including The Christian Post's Josh Stonestreet, have come out in defense of Hobby Lobby, saying that working with Chinese manufacturers is different from working with the Chinese government.
"Doing business in a place where evil exists is not the same as directly supporting that evil," wrote Stonestreet. "In fact, it may even be a force for good!"


IBM would certainly agree with that...

/ how could helping the Germans take a census be a bad thing?
 
2014-07-01 05:47:00 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: "Doing business in a place where evil exists is not the same as directly supporting that evil," wrote Stonestreet. "In fact, it may even be a force for good!"


Would you say that giving people freedom to make decisions that you might find evil isn't the same as directly supporting that evil?
 
2014-07-01 05:53:15 PM
I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?
 
2014-07-01 05:57:58 PM
My religious views prohibit me from paying for the stuff I get at Hobby Lobby.
 
2014-07-01 06:02:15 PM

optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?


They very much do, in fact.
 
2014-07-01 06:08:52 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

They very much do, in fact.


Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.
 
2014-07-01 06:50:21 PM
Is anyone here really surprised to find out that the motivating factor was money, NOT religion?
 
2014-07-01 06:52:30 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: Is anyone here really surprised to find out that the motivating factor was money, NOT religion?


Is anyone here really surprised to find out that religion's motivating factor is money?
 
2014-07-01 06:54:33 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: Is anyone here really surprised to find out that the motivating factor was money, NOT religion?


www.thecontrarianmedia.com
 
2014-07-01 07:55:07 PM
You guys really want someone to care.
 
2014-07-01 07:55:54 PM

optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?


shiat, the 2012 God's Own Party nominee made a bundle getting rid of aborted fetuses. Didn't seem to faze anyone in the slightest.
 
2014-07-01 07:56:32 PM
It's a little known fact that when Jesus went after the moneychangers, he took all the leftover shekels and invested them in a line of brothels and set up a slave-trafficking operation.
 
2014-07-01 07:58:20 PM
OMG, it's beautiful.


Hobby Lobby:  whoa, hey, c'mon, we're American Christians, not real Christians.
 
hej
2014-07-01 07:59:23 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: My religious views prohibit me from paying for the stuff I get at Hobby Lobby.


Your ideas are intriguing, and I'm curious on what date you'll be declaring "National Shoplifting at Hobby Lobby Day" to be.
 
2014-07-01 08:00:54 PM

hej: Your ideas are intriguing, and I'm curious on what date you'll be declaring "National Shoplifting at Hobby Lobby Day" to be.


How many miniature trees, toy trains, and Warhammer figurines from 1986 can one person possibly need?
 
2014-07-01 08:11:11 PM
You know, I've been thinking. I don't really believe it's gravity that's holding me down. It's those damn Mormons and their magic underwear. I'm gonna sue those farkers for preventing me from flying when I flap my arms.
 
2014-07-01 08:11:48 PM

MFAWG: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

shiat, the 2012 God's Own Party nominee made a bundle getting rid of aborted fetuses. Didn't seem to faze anyone in the slightest.


He had to figure out how to clean up Bapp's mess somehow. Might as well make a few bucks off it.
 
2014-07-01 08:17:16 PM
working with Chinese manufacturers is different from working with the Chinese government.

I am skeptical of this claim.  Many Chinese manufacturers are a step away from being GSEs.

optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?


Yes, they do own broad index funds.  You really nailed 'em.

optikeye: Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.


Well, as has been discussed ad nauseum, the lawyers were stupid to not challenge the sincerity of belief.  But there's no way you can say with a straight face that you think this could have increased profits.
 
2014-07-01 08:17:41 PM
It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?
 
2014-07-01 08:19:23 PM

optikeye: Grand_Moff_Joseph: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

They very much do, in fact.

Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.


Do you realize how hard it would be to get all mutual funds that don't invest in companies that do <X>? You would have to only allow them to choose US Treasury Bond mutual funds. Mutual funds, by definition, have thousands of companies stocks. Hell, if they offer an index fund, they have everything. 

In fact, I bet Pepsi's 401k fund offerings allow Coke and vice-versa. I bet the DNC's 401k plan has funds with Halliburton stock. And if your company has international stock offerings? Oh boy, they likely support slavery.

/Very against the ruling and Hobby Lobby
//But that is a weak argument
 
2014-07-01 08:20:05 PM

Jaden Smith First of His Name: hej: Your ideas are intriguing, and I'm curious on what date you'll be declaring "National Shoplifting at Hobby Lobby Day" to be.

How many miniature trees, toy trains, and Warhammer figurines from 1986 can one person possibly need?


It's not about what *I* need. Think 'Robin Hood'...
 
2014-07-01 08:20:19 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: FTA:
"Other Christian columnists, including The Christian Post's Josh Stonestreet, have come out in defense of Hobby Lobby, saying that working with Chinese manufacturers is different from working with the Chinese government.
"Doing business in a place where evil exists is not the same as directly supporting that evil," wrote Stonestreet. "In fact, it may even be a force for good!"

IBM would certainly agree with that...

/ how could helping the Germans take a census be a bad thing?


They were simply helping the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and other undesirables improve their concentration.
 
2014-07-01 08:21:24 PM
They're not hypocrites because they only care about weakening Obamacare and increasing the power of big business.  The religious stuff is just a means to an end.
 
2014-07-01 08:21:33 PM

BMFPitt: working with Chinese manufacturers is different from working with the Chinese government.

I am skeptical of this claim.  Many Chinese manufacturers are a step away from being GSEs.

optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

Yes, they do own broad index funds.  You really nailed 'em.

optikeye: Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.

Well, as has been discussed ad nauseum, the lawyers were stupid to not challenge the sincerity of belief.  But there's no way you can say with a straight face that you think this could have increased profits.


If they're that worried about what their employees do with their benefits, then they should care about their own investments. I guess morality needs plausible deniability.
 
2014-07-01 08:25:59 PM

AngryDragon: It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?


Oh look, someone who doesn't know the concept of common law and legal precedent...
 
2014-07-01 08:26:26 PM

machoprogrammer: optikeye: Grand_Moff_Joseph: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

They very much do, in fact.

Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.

Do you realize how hard it would be to get all mutual funds that don't invest in companies that do <X>? You would have to only allow them to choose US Treasury Bond mutual funds. Mutual funds, by definition, have thousands of companies stocks. Hell, if they offer an index fund, they have everything. 

In fact, I bet Pepsi's 401k fund offerings allow Coke and vice-versa. I bet the DNC's 401k plan has funds with Halliburton stock. And if your company has international stock offerings? Oh boy, they likely support slavery.

/Very against the ruling and Hobby Lobby
//But that is a weak argument


If they went with a socially responsible fund option, they would have avoided investing in Teva.

There are also funds available that invest to fit religious requirements; many fund companies offer customized index funds and/or ETFs for that.
 
2014-07-01 08:27:06 PM

AngryDragon: It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?


Just a big distraction from the real issue, BENGHAZI!!!
 
2014-07-01 08:27:17 PM

machoprogrammer: optikeye: Grand_Moff_Joseph: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

They very much do, in fact.

Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.

Do you realize how hard it would be to get all mutual funds that don't invest in companies that do <X>? You would have to only allow them to choose US Treasury Bond mutual funds. Mutual funds, by definition, have thousands of companies stocks. Hell, if they offer an index fund, they have everything.

In fact, I bet Pepsi's 401k fund offerings allow Coke and vice-versa. I bet the DNC's 401k plan has funds with Halliburton stock. And if your company has international stock offerings? Oh boy, they likely support slavery.

/Very against the ruling and Hobby Lobby
//But that is a weak argument


They have options, as discussed in this article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-401k-dis c overed-to-be-investor-in-numerous-abortion-and-contraception-products- while-claiming-religious-objection/

FTA:  To avoid supporting companies that manufacture abortion drugs-or products such as alcohol or pornography-religious investors can turn to a cottage industry of mutual funds that screen out stocks that religious people might consider morally objectionable. The Timothy Plan and the Ave Maria Fund, for example, screen for companies that manufacture abortion drugs, support Planned Parenthood, or engage in embryonic stem cell research.
 
2014-07-01 08:28:34 PM

AngryDragon: It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?


When you forget about Hillary Clinton being on the Wal Mart board 20+ years ago, we'll forget about this.
http://www.fark.com/comments/8308659/91536246#c91536246
 
2014-07-01 08:28:40 PM
I'm pretty sure the Christ-like thing to do is hit them with sticks and go find a prostitute.

/I just converted
 
2014-07-01 08:31:32 PM

dumbobruni: machoprogrammer: optikeye: Grand_Moff_Joseph: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

They very much do, in fact.

Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.

Do you realize how hard it would be to get all mutual funds that don't invest in companies that do <X>? You would have to only allow them to choose US Treasury Bond mutual funds. Mutual funds, by definition, have thousands of companies stocks. Hell, if they offer an index fund, they have everything. 

In fact, I bet Pepsi's 401k fund offerings allow Coke and vice-versa. I bet the DNC's 401k plan has funds with Halliburton stock. And if your company has international stock offerings? Oh boy, they likely support slavery.

/Very against the ruling and Hobby Lobby
//But that is a weak argument

If they went with a socially responsible fund option, they would have avoided investing in Teva.

There are also funds available that invest to fit religious requirements; many fund companies offer customized index funds and/or ETFs for that.


Some socially responsible funds do invest in Teva. It really boils down to the definition of "socially responsible"

And a lot of the companies those funds invest in actually invest in other companies, in turn. The companies those companies invest in could conflict with your beliefs. What if said responsible companies deals with irresponsible companies? Where do you draw the line?

And the religious/SR funds are typically super high cost with crappy return. Index funds are way, way better offerings for 401k.

Also, most companies try to offer a wide variety of types of funds in their selection. Good luck getting a large cap mutual fund offering without a company you disagree with. If all they offered was government bond funds and a religious-okay fund, that would be a really shiatty selection
 
2014-07-01 08:32:00 PM
Bottom line is that when you shop at Hobby Lobby, your money goes to pay for abortions... the only thing that changed is that now your money will only go towards Chinese abortions.
 
2014-07-01 08:32:35 PM

Farkgeist: machoprogrammer: optikeye: Grand_Moff_Joseph: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

They very much do, in fact.

Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.

Do you realize how hard it would be to get all mutual funds that don't invest in companies that do <X>? You would have to only allow them to choose US Treasury Bond mutual funds. Mutual funds, by definition, have thousands of companies stocks. Hell, if they offer an index fund, they have everything.

In fact, I bet Pepsi's 401k fund offerings allow Coke and vice-versa. I bet the DNC's 401k plan has funds with Halliburton stock. And if your company has international stock offerings? Oh boy, they likely support slavery.

/Very against the ruling and Hobby Lobby
//But that is a weak argument

They have options, as discussed in this article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-401k-dis c overed-to-be-investor-in-numerous-abortion-and-contraception-products- while-claiming-religious-objection/

FTA:  To avoid supporting companies that manufacture abortion drugs-or products such as alcohol or pornography-religious investors can turn to a cottage industry of mutual funds that screen out stocks that religious people might consider morally objectionable. The Timothy Plan and the Ave Maria Fund, for example, screen for companies that manufacture abortion drugs, support Planned Parenthood, or engage in embryonic stem cell research.


So you want them to offer just government bonds and a religious fund for offerings? That would be a really shiatty selection
 
2014-07-01 08:34:41 PM
"You cannot call your business 'Christian' when arguing before the Supreme Court, and then set aside Christian values when you're placing a bulk order for cheap wind chimes," wrote Christian author and columnist Jonathan Merritt"

Sure you can.

"Christian Values" has absolutely no definition. There are thousands of different churches with different value sets that all call themselves "Christian" churches.

And if you violate those values, you're forgiven anyway.

No problem.
 
2014-07-01 08:36:18 PM

12349876: AngryDragon: It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?

When you forget about Hillary Clinton being on the Wal Mart board 20+ years ago, we'll forget about this.
http://www.fark.com/comments/8308659/91536246#c91536246


I'm a libbylibbylib and I haven't forgotten that she sat on Wal-Mart's board.

Warren/anyone-but-Clinton 2016!
 
2014-07-01 08:36:59 PM

machoprogrammer: Farkgeist: machoprogrammer: optikeye: Grand_Moff_Joseph: optikeye: I wonder if their 401K plans...or the investments by the "closely held" board members include drug companies that make 'abortion' drugs?

They very much do, in fact.

Then the lawyers that defended this case are stupid. They could have argued that due to prior action by the board of directors, their motivation was based in maximizing profits and not a deeply held religious belief.

Do you realize how hard it would be to get all mutual funds that don't invest in companies that do <X>? You would have to only allow them to choose US Treasury Bond mutual funds. Mutual funds, by definition, have thousands of companies stocks. Hell, if they offer an index fund, they have everything.

In fact, I bet Pepsi's 401k fund offerings allow Coke and vice-versa. I bet the DNC's 401k plan has funds with Halliburton stock. And if your company has international stock offerings? Oh boy, they likely support slavery.

/Very against the ruling and Hobby Lobby
//But that is a weak argument

They have options, as discussed in this article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-401k-dis c overed-to-be-investor-in-numerous-abortion-and-contraception-products- while-claiming-religious-objection/

FTA:  To avoid supporting companies that manufacture abortion drugs-or products such as alcohol or pornography-religious investors can turn to a cottage industry of mutual funds that screen out stocks that religious people might consider morally objectionable. The Timothy Plan and the Ave Maria Fund, for example, screen for companies that manufacture abortion drugs, support Planned Parenthood, or engage in embryonic stem cell research.

So you want them to offer just government bonds and a religious fund for offerings? That would be a really shiatty selection


I'm not the one with the "closely held religious beliefs."
 
2014-07-01 08:37:14 PM
And again, I really really really dislike the ruling and Hobby Lobby (and the rest of the fundies) can go fark itself as far as I am concerned, but the mutual fund selection offering in their 401k is a really stupid thing to call them on
 
2014-07-01 08:38:13 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: "You cannot call your business 'Christian' when arguing before the Supreme Court, and then set aside Christian values when you're placing a bulk order for cheap wind chimes," wrote Christian author and columnist Jonathan Merritt"

Sure you can.

"Christian Values" has absolutely no definition. There are thousands of different churches with different value sets that all call themselves "Christian" churches.

And if you violate those values, you're forgiven anyway.

No problem.


Besides, Christian values are just something you use so you can tell other people how to live.
 
2014-07-01 08:40:28 PM
I think it's cute when Christians think that a business that uses the Christian religion as a marketing ploy really cares about religion more than money.  It's like they believe the hype.
 
2014-07-01 08:43:51 PM

T-Servo: AngryDragon: It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?

Oh look, someone who doesn't know the concept of common law and legal precedent...


This is SCOTUS.  It IS the legal precedent and supersedes all others.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: AngryDragon: It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?

Just a big distraction from the real issue, BENGHAZI!!!


This decision is stupid, but it's done.  They didn't outlaw birth control.  They just say that women have to buy it just like men have to buy condoms.

12349876: AngryDragon: It's done.  Get over it.  How many threads like this are we going to see?

When you forget about Hillary Clinton being on the Wal Mart board 20+ years ago, we'll forget about this.
http://www.fark.com/comments/8308659/91536246#c91536246


Who in their right mind would forget either one?
 
2014-07-01 08:43:58 PM

machoprogrammer: Do you realize how hard it would be to get all mutual funds that don't invest in companies that do <X>? You would have to only allow them to choose US Treasury Bond mutual funds. Mutual funds, by definition, have thousands of companies stocks. Hell, if they offer an index fund, they have everything.


So the deeply held beliefs have a difficulty level?  If so, those deeply held beliefs aren't really that deep when it comes down to pocket change.
 
2014-07-01 08:43:58 PM

hej: Sin_City_Superhero: My religious views prohibit me from paying for the stuff I get at Hobby Lobby.

Your ideas are intriguing, and I'm curious on what date you'll be declaring "National Shoplifting at Hobby Lobby Day" to be.


I wish to be included on your mailing list.
 
2014-07-01 08:44:29 PM

UNC_Samurai: If they're that worried about what their employees do with their benefits, then they should care about their own investments. I guess morality needs plausible deniability.


So you're saying that they should have removed cheap broad based index funds from their 401k and instead only let their employees invest in a random assortment of crappy find selected to avoid investing a quadrillionth of a percent in certain drugs?
 
2014-07-01 08:47:00 PM

machoprogrammer: And again, I really really really dislike the ruling and Hobby Lobby (and the rest of the fundies) can go fark itself as far as I am concerned, but the mutual fund selection offering in their 401k is a really stupid thing to call them on


If their closely held religious beliefs entitle them to restrict what employees can do with their health insurance, they should have to back that up with their investments.  You can't invest in X and claim to be opposed to X.

Just because it's hard to find a mutual fund that doesn't invest in X doesn't change this fact.
 
2014-07-01 08:47:37 PM
Heading a fundie "Christian" church these days completely absolves them from anything remotely connected to empathy, integrity, morality, or the original Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
2014-07-01 08:48:10 PM

AngryDragon: Who in their right mind would forget either one?


I was treating Get over it = forget about it  but I'll rephrase if you didn't understand.

20 plus years on and you still haven't "get over it" about Hillary Clinton at Wal Mart so we'll do the same.

And by your logic, we should have gotten over the Dred Scott decision too.
 
2014-07-01 08:48:36 PM
Doesn't China also persecute Christians? If I remember my The West Wing episodes, and I do, China persecutes Christians. Ipso facto, they do business with persecutors of Christians.
 
2014-07-01 08:49:22 PM

Dafatone: machoprogrammer: And again, I really really really dislike the ruling and Hobby Lobby (and the rest of the fundies) can go fark itself as far as I am concerned, but the mutual fund selection offering in their 401k is a really stupid thing to call them on

If their closely held religious beliefs entitle them to restrict what employees can do with their health insurance, they should have to back that up with their investments.  You can't invest in X and claim to be opposed to X.

Just because it's hard to find a mutual fund that doesn't invest in X doesn't change this fact.


But these were the mutual funds allowed to their employees. Offering your employees the choice of two funds (government bonds and a religious fund) would be really shiatty
 
2014-07-01 08:49:51 PM

BMFPitt: UNC_Samurai: If they're that worried about what their employees do with their benefits, then they should care about their own investments. I guess morality needs plausible deniability.

So you're saying that they should have removed cheap broad based index funds from their 401k and instead only let their employees invest in a random assortment of crappy find selected to avoid investing a quadrillionth of a percent in certain drugs?


Are you saying their desire to stop providing forms of contraception they had no problem with for years, was somehow religiously motivated and in no way a crass political statement?
 
2014-07-01 08:50:24 PM
Let's see ...

They were more than happy to include things they now describe as causing abortions in their employees' health plans, and only received a revelation of the sinfulness when the government said they has to do something they already were.

And they also invest in companies that make and sell drugs they say cause abortions.

So yeah, hypocrites sounds about right. Although, and according to their own reasoning, "accessories to murder" probably fits even better.
 
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