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(CNN)   Dear insert name here, You can add college essays and transcripts to the list of cheaply made Chinese exports   (money.cnn.com) divider line 27
    More: Amusing, Chinese, U.S., Chinese students, U.S. colleges, U.s.news & World Report, cheating, Institute of International Education, professional organizations  
•       •       •

1310 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Jul 2014 at 3:23 PM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



27 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-07-01 02:50:29 PM  
"To get into" the US -yeah, because China is a dump.
 
2014-07-01 03:34:45 PM  
From personal experience, for EU applications it's a lot higher than one in ten, it's not just the Chinese doing it, and it's even more common at the postgrad level... However, complaining about it is discrimination, because we need to remember their "strong culture of collaboration".
 
2014-07-01 03:46:46 PM  
This could get ugly. Fair warning, don't insult the Chinamen around these parts.
 
2014-07-01 04:00:12 PM  
FTA: At the University of Cincinnati, staff are quick to spot "students whose conversations with us show a lower level of English" than their English-language scores suggest, Weller said.

Spoken language comprehension =/= reading comprehension. This should be obvious to anyone who has ever spoken to someone who grew up with a different dialect of English.

Does Cincinnati only accept local students or something?
 
2014-07-01 04:01:04 PM  
thats the same way that an H1-B candidate can have a bachelors, grad, phd, 5 years experience each in 7 different operating systems, programing languages and databases from the upper western derganistani technical college of business applications and furthermore at the ripe old age of 23.
 
2014-07-01 04:04:31 PM  
Brand is Everything.   even if Brand Sucks.


welcome to your Advertising Masters.
 
2014-07-01 04:07:33 PM  
My personal experience is that I work with a fair number of Chinese graduate students (personally I work with three, but I'm in an environment with maybe 50 total) who are seeking PhDs. Some of them are very bright, top of the class type individuals. Some of them are average. None of them are lazy or cheaters.

The admissions process has adapted to such cheaters. There are three major ways they misrepresent themselves to get into our program: people can fabricate credentials, they can lie about language proficiency, and they can lie about their abilities. The first step was to simply stop considering any application from "unknown" schools in China and India. We get about 500 applicants per year to our program, and about half of those are eliminated immediately for this reason.

Second, it used to be that we would insist on phone or Skype interviews with foreign individuals, but the cheaters started to hire professional interviewers, so you'd go through this long interview process, pay to fly people around, spend money attracting the top students, and eventually one or two of them would show up and be completely incapable of working in English, despite a near-perfect TOEFL score. Those people were put back on planes and sent home immediately, but it's a huge expense whenever it happens. As a result, we now send one of our faculty to China each year to meet with all prospective students, where they are personally evaluated. It's still an extra expense for us, but at least we can send home one of the Chinese professors and let them get a little R&R or renew their visa on the university dime.

Finally, some people have good credentials and have good language skills, but they're just not able to do the work. In fairness, we have plenty of domestic students who end up over their heads as well. There's not a lot you can do to weed them out ahead of time, and in fact about 2/3 of people who are admitted to our PhD program do not end up finishing. If they're good workers they'll probably do some grunt work for a couple of years and terminate early with a Master's degree.

Overall, I wouldn't say that we have a "problem" with Chinese students any more so than we do with domestic students, but that's only after categorically rejecting about 250 students from those unknown schools. There are probably a lot of good individuals in that category, but we don't have the manpower or inclination to weed through the lot of them trying to find diamonds in the rough, particularly when we're able to attract plenty of students from the "known" Chinese schools.
 
2014-07-01 04:19:11 PM  

draypresct: Spoken language comprehension =/= reading comprehension. This should be obvious to anyone who has ever spoken to someone who grew up with a different dialect of English.

Does Cincinnati only accept local students or something?


I think that the point is that if they lie about their English proficiency, then they've probably lied about other things as well. There's a huge number of people who want to get into competitive programs, so there's actually an incentive for admissions people to weed out applicants quickly.

Most universities require students to submit proof of their English fluency, normally using a standardized test such as TOEFL. The TOEFL reports a score on Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Writing, so you can assess fairly quickly whether or not someone is truly intermediate or proficient with speaking English, and you can make sure that lines up with their reported score.

Practically, especially at a university, students need to listen to and understand lectures, ask questions, read course material, and turn in written assignments. Language skills are crucial, and frankly you're doing a disservice to everybody if you accept a student who doesn't have the ability. The student will learn better in their native language, and the professor and other students won't have to worry about whether or not the language barrier is getting in the way of instruction.
 
2014-07-01 04:25:03 PM  
Well thank you subby.
 
2014-07-01 04:29:21 PM  
They must be the pride of (INSERT_NAME_OF_HOMETOWN_HERE).
 
2014-07-01 04:31:38 PM  

tlchwi02: thats the same way that an H1-B candidate can have a bachelors, grad, phd, 5 years experience each in 7 different operating systems, programing languages and databases from the upper western derganistani technical college of business applications and furthermore at the ripe old age of 23.


And not know how to write a for loop.
 
2014-07-01 04:53:15 PM  
Whew. I thought my Masters degress in Long Dickology would become worthless.
 
2014-07-01 05:08:55 PM  
According to a friend on the Judicial Board, it was fairly common for some foreign students to have university-provided "tutors" who would do their homework in non-major classes. I'm not remembering with 100% clarity, but I seem to also recall hearing that tutors who objected found themselves without clients for the following semester.

Anywho, these were (e.g.) engineering students who were required to take core classes outside of the hard sciences - humanities, arts, social science, etc - and "didn't want to" because they were only "sent here" to learn how to be engineers.

Which sort of defeats the purpose of core, while also costing taxpayers more money and keeping admission spots from more deserving individuals. It's almost enough to turn you isolationist.
 
2014-07-01 05:36:32 PM  
Before the article blamed the applicants for cheating, the colleges just let in all students and charged them tuition.
 
2014-07-01 06:00:46 PM  
"'I did this," admissions officer Kim Lovaas remembers the essay saying, and, "'I did that.'" Then she came to a phrase that stopped her short: "Insert girl's name here.." I thought, 'Did I just read that?'" said Lovaas. "To me, that was a really big red flag."

Thank you Captain Obvious
 
2014-07-01 07:01:21 PM  
Fubini: TL;DR

What in sam hell you got against 'Murricans?

/but seriously, damn that sounds like a lot of work just to admit grad students. Is it ever worth it?
 
2014-07-01 07:07:54 PM  
www.wingkong.net
You were not brought upon this Earth to "get it."
 
2014-07-01 07:23:28 PM  
ok teachers, less essays and more group projects.

Those are harder to outsource.

/pop quizzes are cool too.

//this is about teachers being lazy versus students being lazy, apparently the advantage is currently with the students. if only there was an educated group of people interested in education that could control class grading systems to minimize the potential for students to get away with cheating.....
 
2014-07-01 07:37:45 PM  
What do you need? Dental dams, redi-whips... term papers...
 
2014-07-01 08:20:27 PM  

AlgaeRancher: ok teachers, less essays and more group projects.

Those are harder to outsource.


Actually, you just don't show up.  Then the folks who don't want a bad grade have to carry you.

Especially if part of your grade is 'team unity,' as in 'can you get this done without any complaints about your absent team member?'  It was annoying, but it did accurately reflect client scenarios.  A client wouldn't care less that someone dropped the ball at the last minute.
 
2014-07-01 09:03:11 PM  

K.B.O. Winston: AlgaeRancher: ok teachers, less essays and more group projects.

Those are harder to outsource.

Actually, you just don't show up.  Then the folks who don't want a bad grade have to carry you.

Especially if part of your grade is 'team unity,' as in 'can you get this done without any complaints about your absent team member?'  It was annoying, but it did accurately reflect client scenarios.  A client wouldn't care less that someone dropped the ball at the last minute.


Works until one guy stabs the underperformer, as seen in another thread today.
 
2014-07-01 10:31:59 PM  

Fubini: draypresct: Spoken language comprehension =/= reading comprehension. This should be obvious to anyone who has ever spoken to someone who grew up with a different dialect of English.

Does Cincinnati only accept local students or something?

I think that the point is that if they lie about their English proficiency, then they've probably lied about other things as well. There's a huge number of people who want to get into competitive programs, so there's actually an incentive for admissions people to weed out applicants quickly.

Most universities require students to submit proof of their English fluency, normally using a standardized test such as TOEFL. The TOEFL reports a score on Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Writing, so you can assess fairly quickly whether or not someone is truly intermediate or proficient with speaking English, and you can make sure that lines up with their reported score.

Practically, especially at a university, students need to listen to and understand lectures, ask questions, read course material, and turn in written assignments. Language skills are crucial, and frankly you're doing a disservice to everybody if you accept a student who doesn't have the ability. The student will learn better in their native language, and the professor and other students won't have to worry about whether or not the language barrier is getting in the way of instruction.


Thanks for the explanation. I should never have assumed that the test was written only
 
2014-07-02 12:39:49 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: "To get into" the US -yeah, because China is a dump.


Yup, and because we've got an antagonistic enough alliance with China that we de facto go out of our way to let the ones that come here for college stay, sort of a semi-refugee status thing.

// Group projects often involve group presentations, by the way, since the other guy was bringing it up.  Sure, in high school where the teacher probably doesn't care you can skip and get carried, but it's a lot harder when the lecturer/GSA is watching out for those kinds of shenanegans.

// Admittedly, there are college courses where the lecturer doesn't care, too.  Basically any course where they're teaching something primarily to people in another major for breadth credits there's usually an attitude of "we're doing this to help you expand your horizons, not actually improve your craft, so if you want to slack off it's not worth failing you".
 
2014-07-02 01:19:04 AM  

Jim_Callahan: primarily to people in another major for breadth credits


As long as it's not "breath credits" because they sometimes take weird medicine.  (Personal experience, I love the Chinese, just sometimes not their breath)
 
2014-07-02 03:01:15 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Because People in power are Stupid: "To get into" the US -yeah, because China is a dump.

Yup, and because we've got an antagonistic enough alliance with China that we de facto go out of our way to let the ones that come here for college stay, sort of a semi-refugee status thing.

// Group projects often involve group presentations, by the way, since the other guy was bringing it up.  Sure, in high school where the teacher probably doesn't care you can skip and get carried, but it's a lot harder when the lecturer/GSA is watching out for those kinds of shenanegans.


It was video presentation so there was no 'hey, look at the guy who doesn't know his lines' moments to make things obvious.  In retrospect, this really was good training for real life: until they get fired, you will have to find a way to work with the unreliable people.  Get farkin' used to it.

It was especially instructive when the team fark-up started taking credit for my work.  The ability to *not* smack idiots upside the head in business meetings has worked out well for me.
 
2014-07-02 03:35:11 AM  

Dr Dreidel: According to a friend on the Judicial Board, it was fairly common for some foreign students to have university-provided "tutors" who would do their homework in non-major classes. I'm not remembering with 100% clarity, but I seem to also recall hearing that tutors who objected found themselves without clients for the following semester.

Anywho, these were (e.g.) engineering students who were required to take core classes outside of the hard sciences - humanities, arts, social science, etc - and "didn't want to" because they were only "sent here" to learn how to be engineers.

Which sort of defeats the purpose of core, while also costing taxpayers more money and keeping admission spots from more deserving individuals. It's almost enough to turn you isolationist.


i am one of those people. i live in china and game the system. haha
 
2014-07-02 02:14:40 PM  
As if a degree from University of Phoenix, Florida International U., Colorado Tech, Western Governors
U., or Southern New Hampshire carries any meaning.  (PS - There's a word for Southern New
Hampshire - "Massachusetts".)
 
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