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(io9)   Archeologists find a pair of 4,000-year-old chariots in Georgia, conclude NASCAR older than thought   (io9.com) divider line 74
    More: Interesting, Bronze Age, archaeologists, University of Basel, draft horses, chamber tomb, domestication  
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4258 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Jun 2014 at 2:09 PM (3 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-30 11:58:58 AM
Archaeologists discovered the timber burial chamber within a 39-foot-high (12 meters) mound called a kurgan


40.media.tumblr.com.
 
2014-06-30 12:07:53 PM
Oh, Georgia the country.  Would have been huge news had it been found in the Americas, I don't believe any of the natives ever had chariots.
 
2014-06-30 12:19:32 PM
Great, now I have a Vangelis soundtrack in my head.
 
2014-06-30 12:39:47 PM

nekom: Oh, Georgia the country.  Would have been huge news had it been found in the Americas, I don't believe any of the natives ever had chariots.


Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.
 
2014-06-30 12:41:55 PM
RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.
 
2014-06-30 12:49:21 PM

nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.


Would chariots even have worked in the mountains of Peru? I'd imagine part of the reason why wheeled transport never caught on there is because there's no real way to get it to work up and down mountainsides.
 
2014-06-30 01:02:28 PM

nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.


And Indians love horses!  You'd think Columbus would get a big "thank you" but nooooo.......
 
2014-06-30 01:06:19 PM
Buryiot?
 
2014-06-30 01:28:54 PM
And I bet people back then only watched the races just to see the crashes.
 
2014-06-30 02:17:24 PM

RexTalionis: nekom: Oh, Georgia the country.  Would have been huge news had it been found in the Americas, I don't believe any of the natives ever had chariots.

Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.



They could have used dinosaurs, like Jesus did.
 
2014-06-30 02:17:41 PM
It proves that Ikea was there as the chariots were flat packed.
 
2014-06-30 02:21:44 PM

nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.


I read once that the Inca had pulleys but not wheeled vehicles because Peru was so mountainous that carts/wagon/chariots would have been deathtraps. But if they had built a wheeled vehicle, a llama would have been pulling it.
 
2014-06-30 02:23:16 PM

cgraves67: nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.

I read once that the Inca had pulleys but not wheeled vehicles because Peru was so mountainous that carts/wagon/chariots would have been deathtraps. But if they had built a wheeled vehicle, a llama would have been pulling it.


Or people.
 
2014-06-30 02:25:14 PM

BKITU: Great, now I have a Vangelis soundtrack in my head.


Funny, I have "Fun, Fun, Fun".

/"she makes the Indy 500 look like a Roman chariot race now"
 
2014-06-30 02:25:24 PM

give me doughnuts: cgraves67: nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.

I read once that the Inca had pulleys but not wheeled vehicles because Peru was so mountainous that carts/wagon/chariots would have been deathtraps. But if they had built a wheeled vehicle, a llama would have been pulling it.

Or people.


www.atoda.com
 
2014-06-30 02:32:34 PM

BKITU: Great, now I have a Vangelis soundtrack in my head.


Worse. I have charlie Daniels.
 
2014-06-30 02:35:57 PM
RexTalionis:

Is that a Jaguar?
 
2014-06-30 02:39:05 PM
Obsidian arrowheads. Huh. Kinda like being buried with gold bullets.
 
2014-06-30 02:40:04 PM
"two well-preserved chariots, each with four wooden wheels. "

Um.  Wouldn't those simply be "wagons"?
 
2014-06-30 02:40:39 PM
"were probably pulled not by fleet-footed draft horses, but oxen. "

Again.  Oxen - wagon?
 
2014-06-30 02:42:10 PM

joeshill: "were probably pulled not by fleet-footed draft horses, but oxen. "

Again.  Oxen - wagon?


These weren't found anywhere on the Oregon Trail, so your hypothesis is in doubt.

Also, you have died of dysentery.
 
2014-06-30 02:43:00 PM

RexTalionis: nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.

Would chariots even have worked in the mountains of Peru? I'd imagine part of the reason why wheeled transport never caught on there is because there's no real way to get it to work up and down mountainsides.


PushmePullyous. So you have a reverse gear.
amuseorbemused.com
/Plus you can dance with them.
//I've never seen anything like it in my life...
/// It's a bicranium!
 
2014-06-30 02:43:17 PM

BKITU: joeshill: "were probably pulled not by fleet-footed draft horses, but oxen. "

Again.  Oxen - wagon?

These weren't found anywhere on the Oregon Trail, so your hypothesis is in doubt.

Also, you have died of dysentery.


Butbutbut...I just forded the river!

Damnit.
 
2014-06-30 02:45:51 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Obsidian arrowheads. Huh. Kinda like being buried with gold bullets.


Not really. Obsidian arrowheads are incredibly sharp and effective.

For comparison, modern surgical blades for eye surgery are sometimes made of obsidian.
 
2014-06-30 02:46:03 PM
I suspect some mistranslation from Georgian is involved here.

FTFA: "two well-preserved chariots, each with four wooden wheels.  ... the vehicles discovered in Georgia were probably pulled not by fleet-footed draft horses, but oxen."

They found an ox-cart. Chariots are 2 wheeled war vehicles pulled by fast horse(s).

upload.wikimedia.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot#Eastern_Europe
Evidence of wheeled vehicles appears from the mid 4th millennium BC, near-simultaneously in the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) Central Europe and Mesopotamia. The earliest depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here, a wagon with two axles and four wheels), is on the Bronocice pot, a ca. 3500-3350 BC clay pot excavated in a funnelbeaker settlement in southern Poland.

www.historyforkids.org
Bronocice pot
 
2014-06-30 02:46:34 PM

joeshill: "two well-preserved chariots, each with four wooden wheels. "

Um.  Wouldn't those simply be "wagons"?


I thought the same thing, but google found me this:

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/chariots.htm

Seems a few cultures had them. They look like they were designed to carry a few people to battle. Ancient APCs?
 
2014-06-30 02:48:47 PM

Unoriginal_Username: joeshill: "two well-preserved chariots, each with four wooden wheels. "

Um.  Wouldn't those simply be "wagons"?

I thought the same thing, but google found me this:

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/chariots.htm

Seems a few cultures had them. They look like they were designed to carry a few people to battle. Ancient APCs?


bah, 403 threw away my pic. 3/4 down the page you'll find them.
 
2014-06-30 02:49:06 PM

dryknife: RexTalionis:

Is that a Jaguar?


Well, it won't start, and it's fragile, so probably.
 
2014-06-30 02:51:22 PM

Unoriginal_Username: Unoriginal_Username: joeshill: "two well-preserved chariots, each with four wooden wheels. "

Um.  Wouldn't those simply be "wagons"?

I thought the same thing, but google found me this:

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/chariots.htm

Seems a few cultures had them. They look like they were designed to carry a few people to battle. Ancient APCs?

bah, 403 threw away my pic. 3/4 down the page you'll find them.


Book-learnin`! Bah!  I'm sticking with my premise of "Wagon".  Possibly modified to "War Wagon".
 
2014-06-30 02:52:04 PM
grumpfuff

Not really. Obsidian arrowheads are incredibly sharp and effective.

I meant more in the sense that obsidian was an exchange currency in that part of the world, but point taken about functionality.
 
2014-06-30 02:55:31 PM

RexTalionis: nekom: Oh, Georgia the country.  Would have been huge news had it been found in the Americas, I don't believe any of the natives ever had chariots.

Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.


This and the fact that pre-columbian natives had not invented the wheel for carts and such.
 
2014-06-30 02:55:39 PM

HairBolus: I suspect some mistranslation from Georgian is involved here.

FTFA: "two well-preserved chariots, each with four wooden wheels.  ... the vehicles discovered in Georgia were probably pulled not by fleet-footed draft horses, but oxen."

They found an ox-cart. Chariots are 2 wheeled war vehicles pulled by fast horse(s).

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x133]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot#Eastern_Europe
Evidence of wheeled vehicles appears from the mid 4th millennium BC, near-simultaneously in the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) Central Europe and Mesopotamia. The earliest depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here, a wagon with two axles and four wheels), is on the Bronocice pot, a ca. 3500-3350 BC clay pot excavated in a funnelbeaker settlement in southern Poland.

[www.historyforkids.org image 300x304]
Bronocice pot


Chariot:
static.ddmcdn.com

Also Chariot:
www.skeptic.com
 
2014-06-30 02:55:50 PM

Facetious_Speciest: grumpfuff

Not really. Obsidian arrowheads are incredibly sharp and effective.

I meant more in the sense that obsidian was an exchange currency in that part of the world, but point taken about functionality.


Ah, my apologies. I remember in Anthro when I first learned about them actually being incredibly functional, I was shocked, so I thought you might have meant the same thing.
 
2014-06-30 03:06:29 PM
grumpfuff

It's the fact that obsidian is so functional that makes the arrowheads (in this cultural context) interesting...since the material itself was used as currency around that time (the area being a crossroads of Anatolian, Mesopotamian and Indo-European influences, but belonging to none of them as a whole), were the arrowheads purely symbolic (I'm so rich I have silver bullets, biatch!), or did people really go about shooting money at each other? Was it worth shooting gold dollars at each other because they worked well enough when you absolutely had to kill every unarmored person in sight? Kinda fun to wonder.
 
2014-06-30 03:09:06 PM

Magorn: HairBolus: I suspect some mistranslation from Georgian is involved here.

FTFA: "two well-preserved chariots, each with four wooden wheels.  ... the vehicles discovered in Georgia were probably pulled not by fleet-footed draft horses, but oxen."

They found an ox-cart. Chariots are 2 wheeled war vehicles pulled by fast horse(s).

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x133]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot#Eastern_Europe
Evidence of wheeled vehicles appears from the mid 4th millennium BC, near-simultaneously in the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) Central Europe and Mesopotamia. The earliest depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here, a wagon with two axles and four wheels), is on the Bronocice pot, a ca. 3500-3350 BC clay pot excavated in a funnelbeaker settlement in southern Poland.

[www.historyforkids.org image 300x304]
Bronocice pot

Chariot:
[static.ddmcdn.com image 514x268]

Also Chariot:
[www.skeptic.com image 500x261]


The few depictions of ancient 4-wheeled chariots all show them as war vehicles being pulled by horses, not oxen.

I also should have said ox-wagon not ox-cart, because the typical ox-cart has just 2 wheels.
vietnamdiary.com
 
2014-06-30 03:11:05 PM

RexTalionis: nekom: Oh, Georgia the country.  Would have been huge news had it been found in the Americas, I don't believe any of the natives ever had chariots.

Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.


The pre-Columbian western hemisphere was devoid of wheels, which would make finding a chariot, cart, wheelbarrow, or office chair of any age over 500ish years amazing.
 
2014-06-30 03:12:37 PM

BKITU: joeshill: "were probably pulled not by fleet-footed draft horses, but oxen. "

Again.  Oxen - wagon?

These weren't found anywhere on the Oregon Trail, so your hypothesis is in doubt.

Also, you have died of dysentery.


Shut DOWN EVERYTHING
 
2014-06-30 03:15:18 PM
The Loaf

The pre-Columbian western hemisphere was devoid of wheels, which would make finding a chariot, cart, wheelbarrow, or office chair of any age over 500ish years amazing.

On the other hand, a war-chariot pulled by a bison would be pretty intimidating. The natives really should have gotten on that. Wheels and domestication, I mean.
 
2014-06-30 03:20:30 PM

RexTalionis: give me doughnuts: cgraves67: nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.

I read once that the Inca had pulleys but not wheeled vehicles because Peru was so mountainous that carts/wagon/chariots would have been deathtraps. But if they had built a wheeled vehicle, a llama would have been pulling it.

Or people.

[www.atoda.com image 600x526]


25.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-06-30 03:23:48 PM

Facetious_Speciest: grumpfuff

It's the fact that obsidian is so functional that makes the arrowheads (in this cultural context) interesting...since the material itself was used as currency around that time (the area being a crossroads of Anatolian, Mesopotamian and Indo-European influences, but belonging to none of them as a whole), were the arrowheads purely symbolic (I'm so rich I have silver bullets, biatch!), or did people really go about shooting money at each other? Was it worth shooting gold dollars at each other because they worked well enough when you absolutely had to kill every unarmored person in sight? Kinda fun to wonder.


From what I can remember from my classes, obsidian was used as currency because it was functional, in much the same way that salt has been used as a form of currency before. Obsidian was at its most valuable in an unprocessed state - from there it could be turned into arrowheads, spear tips, knives, and various other tools. Often times, even the flake-leftovers were saved as smaller knives/butchering tools/etc. It was also used as to craft tools long before it was used as a trade medium (if I remember right, there are obsidian tool finds dating as far back as something like 500,000 years ago). Ritual items were also sometimes made from it because obsidian was believed to have magical properties.

The comparison to gold and silver is an iffy one, because gold and silver are generally useless short of being shiny and pretty.
 
2014-06-30 03:35:14 PM
The Hittites hated the Chariot of Tomorrow
 
2014-06-30 03:35:26 PM

grumpfuff: because gold and silver are generally useless short of being shiny and pretty.


Lol. You're funny.
 
2014-06-30 03:36:23 PM

nekom: Oh, Georgia the country.  Would have been huge news had it been found in the Americas, I don't believe any of the natives ever had chariots.


Yeah, headline got me. Wheeled carts in the Americas would force a good amount of history book rewriting.
 
2014-06-30 03:37:24 PM

untaken_name: grumpfuff: because gold and silver are generally useless short of being shiny and pretty.

Lol. You're funny.


...what practical use does gold/silver serve for hunter/gatherers?
 
2014-06-30 03:39:28 PM

RexTalionis: give me doughnuts: cgraves67: nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.

I read once that the Inca had pulleys but not wheeled vehicles because Peru was so mountainous that carts/wagon/chariots would have been deathtraps. But if they had built a wheeled vehicle, a llama would have been pulling it.

Or people.

[www.atoda.com image 600x526]


The only place they've found wheels in the americas are on toys.
 
2014-06-30 03:39:51 PM

Facetious_Speciest: The Loaf

The pre-Columbian western hemisphere was devoid of wheels, which would make finding a chariot, cart, wheelbarrow, or office chair of any age over 500ish years amazing.

On the other hand, a war-chariot pulled by a bison would be pretty intimidating. The natives really should have gotten on that. Wheels and domestication, I mean.


Imagine a Chariot pulled by a pair of these:
2.bp.blogspot.com

would have given new meaning to "you're pretty mcuh farked"
 
2014-06-30 03:40:11 PM

BravadoGT: nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.

And Indians love horses!  You'd think Columbus would get a big "thank you" but nooooo.......


In California, during the colonial period, "love" was a culinary term. Very French of them.

One of the lesser know reasons that horse meat is illegal to sell for human consumption in the state. That and unethical butchers cutting beef with horse.
 
2014-06-30 03:40:55 PM

grumpfuff: Facetious_Speciest: grumpfuff

It's the fact that obsidian is so functional that makes the arrowheads (in this cultural context) interesting...since the material itself was used as currency around that time (the area being a crossroads of Anatolian, Mesopotamian and Indo-European influences, but belonging to none of them as a whole), were the arrowheads purely symbolic (I'm so rich I have silver bullets, biatch!), or did people really go about shooting money at each other? Was it worth shooting gold dollars at each other because they worked well enough when you absolutely had to kill every unarmored person in sight? Kinda fun to wonder.

From what I can remember from my classes, obsidian was used as currency because it was functional, in much the same way that salt has been used as a form of currency before. Obsidian was at its most valuable in an unprocessed state - from there it could be turned into arrowheads, spear tips, knives, and various other tools. Often times, even the flake-leftovers were saved as smaller knives/butchering tools/etc. It was also used as to craft tools long before it was used as a trade medium (if I remember right, there are obsidian tool finds dating as far back as something like 500,000 years ago). Ritual items were also sometimes made from it because obsidian was believed to have magical properties.

The comparison to gold and silver is an iffy one, because gold and silver are generally useless short of being shiny and pretty.


Obsidian is better than flint.

Flint is harder, and makes a more durable point, but it's also harder to flake than obsidian.  Of course, that means it's also easier to break an obsidian tool in the process of making it, something I found out fairly quickly:

img.fark.net

Those were my first attempts at knapping.  The bottom two were originally going to be a knife blade similar to the one that Oetzi carried, but I wasn't very familiar with knapping large pieces yet, and I snapped it.  So I turned it into an arrowhead and a spear point.

/I got better.
 
2014-06-30 03:42:23 PM

pedobearapproved: RexTalionis: give me doughnuts: cgraves67: nekom: RexTalionis:
Well, horses weren't introduced into the New World until after Columbus (besides the species that died out around 12,000 years ago), so I don't think there were any chariots here either.

I doubt it as well, but it would certainly be a revolutionary thing if one were found.  No horses, but I'd have to think llamas would be a possibility.

I read once that the Inca had pulleys but not wheeled vehicles because Peru was so mountainous that carts/wagon/chariots would have been deathtraps. But if they had built a wheeled vehicle, a llama would have been pulling it.

Or people.

[www.atoda.com image 600x526]

The only place they've found wheels in the americas are on toys.


Kinda like Romans and steam engines then?
 
2014-06-30 03:42:59 PM

grumpfuff: Facetious_Speciest: grumpfuff

It's the fact that obsidian is so functional that makes the arrowheads (in this cultural context) interesting...since the material itself was used as currency around that time (the area being a crossroads of Anatolian, Mesopotamian and Indo-European influences, but belonging to none of them as a whole), were the arrowheads purely symbolic (I'm so rich I have silver bullets, biatch!), or did people really go about shooting money at each other? Was it worth shooting gold dollars at each other because they worked well enough when you absolutely had to kill every unarmored person in sight? Kinda fun to wonder.

From what I can remember from my classes, obsidian was used as currency because it was functional, in much the same way that salt has been used as a form of currency before. Obsidian was at its most valuable in an unprocessed state - from there it could be turned into arrowheads, spear tips, knives, and various other tools. Often times, even the flake-leftovers were saved as smaller knives/butchering tools/etc. It was also used as to craft tools long before it was used as a trade medium (if I remember right, there are obsidian tool finds dating as far back as something like 500,000 years ago). Ritual items were also sometimes made from it because obsidian was believed to have magical properties.

The comparison to gold and silver is an iffy one, because gold and silver are generally useless short of being shiny and pretty.


Plus obsidian can kill the Others
 
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