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(Seattle Times)   Teachers will be protesting Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation's meddling in their business. You know they're serious because they're doing it during summer vacation   (seattletimes.com) divider line 137
    More: Fail, Gates Foundation, Seattle Center, Bill Gates, U.S. Department of Education, education policy, rush hour, Bothell, Education Week  
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5661 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jun 2014 at 4:55 PM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-26 07:56:34 PM  
It's amusing, how much effort and time and money we will expend in this country to keep from telling people they're shiatty parents who are so stupid themselves that they don't give a fark if their kids learn anything that isn't in "Grand Theft Auto" or some kind of team sport or in the Bible.

What's not amusing is that I'm not sure there's a way to fix it. You can't force people to care about education.

But thank goodness that the thing we're doing to "fix" education this time still mostly blames the teachers. That'll help. I mean, look how well it's worked so far. We're 26th in the world!

So it's all worth it.
 
2014-06-26 08:04:47 PM  

Cletus C.: JoieD'Zen: uberaverage: JoieD'Zen: cretinbob: You know teachers don't get paid during the summer, right cockgobblermitter?

I love this!

My Dad was a teacher for 27 years and got paid 27 summers. Also has been paid for 26 years since he retired.

I was referencing the use of cockgobblermitter.
Glad your dad got paid summers.

I am the mitter who gobblecocked this. My 70th approved link. I needed to get off 69, it was exhausting me.


Hilarious!
 
2014-06-26 08:12:49 PM  
Thank God for Catholic schools.


Ill show you teachers with _REAL_ motivation.
 
2014-06-26 08:21:33 PM  

stan unusual: umad: B.L.Z. Bub: But seriously, I'm not exactly married to the idea of testing to evaluate teachers' performance. I'm open to alternative ideas, it's just that I have yet to hear any GOOD alternatives proposed.

Because there is no good alternative. The only way to know if a student learned anything is to ask them to demonstrate what they have learned.

Should we apply the same standards to doctors and dentists and pay them solely on the basis of patient outcomes or should we recognize that while good outcomes are positively associated with good dental and medical care they are not necessarily the cause of all patient outcomes?


Yes.
 
2014-06-26 08:33:50 PM  
If a dentist only had to take care of 29 sets of teeth from the time they are 5 years old. In 12 years those would be some shiny farking teeth.
 
2014-06-26 08:36:02 PM  

umad: stan unusual: umad: B.L.Z. Bub: But seriously, I'm not exactly married to the idea of testing to evaluate teachers' performance. I'm open to alternative ideas, it's just that I have yet to hear any GOOD alternatives proposed.

Because there is no good alternative. The only way to know if a student learned anything is to ask them to demonstrate what they have learned.

Should we apply the same standards to doctors and dentists and pay them solely on the basis of patient outcomes or should we recognize that while good outcomes are positively associated with good dental and medical care they are not necessarily the cause of all patient outcomes?

Teacher like typing detected. Perhaps you can point out where anyone has suggested that every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor. Or are you suggesting that we force teachers to carry malpractice insurance rather than dealing with standardized testing? All I do know is that your demands of never being held accountable will never happen. In the real world, if you can't prove that you can do your job by some objective metrics, then you will no longer have your job. Man up and deal with it.


Not a teacher- give the turban back to Carnack.  I was one about thirty years ago, then I went to law school and practiced law for a couple of decades.  I was an adjunct professor while I was practicing- don't see any universities handing out pay on the basis of standardized student test scores, and US universities still lead the world.  But clearly there are gaps in our educational system- you read my post as demanding that "every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor" when it said nothing even remotely like that.  You make the assumption that student scores on standardized testing are an objective metric- to the extent that they are, they are an objective metric of the student's performance, not the teacher's.  In the "real world" that kind of faulty analysis would get you fired as an incompetent.
 
2014-06-26 09:02:35 PM  

Rent Party: Teachers are the only organization I have ever seen that actively works against having their performance measured as part of an incentive program.


That's because teaching is the only job where "your" performance evaluation is a test given to someone else.

Think of one of the dumber kids you encountered in school.  The ones who inspired the phrase "you can't cure stupid."  The one who tried to lick a live wire, and who mocked the other kids for paying attention in class.  The idea here is that we're going to test that kid, and penalize his teacher because he is that kid.  We're going to blame the kid's current teacher for every bit of stupid that kid has accumulated.

This is like blaming a chef because a customer is obese at the end of a meal.  It's like blaming a doctor for terminal cancer patients who die from terminal cancer.  The only reason we even consider doing something that stupid is that it teachers are paid from taxes, and we as a society are obsessed with proving that they don't deserve the money and are part of a system that should be dismantled.
 
2014-06-26 09:06:33 PM  

Geotpf: JohnnyApocalypse: JoieD'Zen: Good. The Gates are also pushing GMO foods and questionable vaccines in other countries.

7/10

I'd give you more points, but I don't think you were trying to troll. It seemed an obvious sarcasto-response to me...

Yeah, that's one of those comments where I have no idea if he's trolling or not.


24 carat trolled.
 
2014-06-26 09:11:38 PM  

LazyMedia: The Gates Foundation is such a scam. Its original formula for improving schools was to give away computers to schools that JUST COINCIDENTALLY ran Microsoft operating systems. Schools had mainly used Apple computers up until that point. Market share plus kids' first exposure to computers plus tax writeoff = charity!


I see you don't know Mac OS's 6-9. We had Macs you could turn them on and run one program (obviously the text editor that had speaking) If you ran more than one program, memory errors and crash.the ones that were still on os 4 were reliable though....
 
2014-06-26 09:16:18 PM  

DrunkenIrishOD: LazyMedia: The Gates Foundation is such a scam. Its original formula for improving schools was to give away computers to schools that JUST COINCIDENTALLY ran Microsoft operating systems. Schools had mainly used Apple computers up until that point. Market share plus kids' first exposure to computers plus tax writeoff = charity!

I see you don't know Mac OS's 6-9. We had Macs you could turn them on and run one program (obviously the text editor that had speaking) If you ran more than one program, memory errors and crash.the ones that were still on os 4 were reliable though....


You do realize that those Apple computers you had in school were given to you as a tax write off too?

You can't claim Microsoft did it for the tax reason but Apple just did it out of the goodness of their heart.
 
2014-06-26 09:18:22 PM  

umad: Teacher like typing detected. Perhaps you can point out where anyone has suggested that every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor.


So the idiot kids who aren't the teacher's fault will be magically excluded from the test average?  No?
 
2014-06-26 09:18:36 PM  

Xcott: Rent Party: Teachers are the only organization I have ever seen that actively works against having their performance measured as part of an incentive program.

That's because teaching is the only job where "your" performance evaluation is a test given to someone else.

Think of one of the dumber kids you encountered in school.  The ones who inspired the phrase "you can't cure stupid."  The one who tried to lick a live wire, and who mocked the other kids for paying attention in class.  The idea here is that we're going to test that kid, and penalize his teacher because he is that kid.  We're going to blame the kid's current teacher for every bit of stupid that kid has accumulated.

This is like blaming a chef because a customer is obese at the end of a meal.  It's like blaming a doctor for terminal cancer patients who die from terminal cancer.  The only reason we even consider doing something that stupid is that it teachers are paid from taxes, and we as a society are obsessed with proving that they don't deserve the money and are part of a system that should be dismantled.


Yeah! I mean, what did widespread education ever do for a country???

These kids should learn to go to war, or sell newspapers in the streets, or shine shoes, or lose a finger in a machining shop.

All this book lernin never did no good anyhow!!!
 
2014-06-26 09:33:50 PM  

meat0918: Hell, it's the part he has the most trouble with.  He just answered the question, why does he have to answer it in a different way?


I don't have anything to say about common core stuff, since I don't teach in the US. But I will offer an answer to this question. Math is not just about getting the answer, it's about learning how to think about problems, and the thinking styles employed in solving math problems can be applied to non-math problems. If this were no the case, then we'd just let students use calculators and be done with it.

Now, there may be better ways to teach and train the mind to think than repetitively doing math problems, but that really is the purpose of math problems. Basically, they are meant to be push-ups for the brain.

In the case of your question, I'd imagine that practicing different ways at arriving at the same answer would probably help promote flexibility in one's thinking as well as an inclination to look at situations from different points of view. 

At least, that's supposed to be the general idea, though it often doesn't seem to be presented that way to the students or the parents.

/taught junior high math here in Thailand for a few years before increasing class sizes forced us to have more classes, so now my schedule is exclusively my biology classes
 
2014-06-26 09:34:14 PM  

Xcott: Rent Party: Teachers are the only organization I have ever seen that actively works against having their performance measured as part of an incentive program.

That's because teaching is the only job where "your" performance evaluation is a test given to someone else.

Think of one of the dumber kids you encountered in school.  The ones who inspired the phrase "you can't cure stupid."  The one who tried to lick a live wire, and who mocked the other kids for paying attention in class.  The idea here is that we're going to test that kid, and penalize his teacher because he is that kid.  We're going to blame the kid's current teacher for every bit of stupid that kid has accumulated.

This is like blaming a chef because a customer is obese at the end of a meal.  It's like blaming a doctor for terminal cancer patients who die from terminal cancer.  The only reason we even consider doing something that stupid is that it teachers are paid from taxes, and we as a society are obsessed with proving that they don't deserve the money and are part of a system that should be dismantled.


A-FARKING-MEN.
 
2014-06-26 09:46:46 PM  

umad: SubBass49: Anyway, that's a start

No it isn't. I said no happy horseshiat, and that is all you gave me.


No, actually you said, "Not some happy horseshiat like "end poverty and make parents care more."

I didn't say either of those things.  I gave examples of ways to mitigate the EFFECTS of poverty, and give parents a REASON to care more, but you go ahead and ignore that.  Your agenda is clear.
 
2014-06-26 10:58:37 PM  

get real: SubBass49: I'm just gonna leave this here...

Badass Teachers Association
Badass Teachers Association (facebook)

Yeah, teachers are getting sick of being pariahs and catching blame for the failings of our sackless politicians to address the ACTUAL issues (poverty, glorification of idiocy, parents that never hold their crotchfruit accountable for a damn thing, etc) that contribute to student failure.  Notice I said STUDENT failure, not teacher failure.

Like you all like to say to the waiters and waitress.....get a different job!  Someone deciding to be a teacher in this day and age and acting like they did not know what to expect is amusing.


media.tumblr.com
/you know I had to
 
2014-06-26 11:06:50 PM  

Xcott: umad: Teacher like typing detected. Perhaps you can point out where anyone has suggested that every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor.

So the idiot kids who aren't the teacher's fault will be magically excluded from the test average?  No?


Maybe you should go back to school and go over averages again. You can raise the average score even if the dummies don't do any better than before. That's how averages farking work.
 
2014-06-26 11:16:14 PM  

meat0918: doomjesse: meat0918: meat0918: Intrepid00: I still can't figure out the beef with common core. Someone tell me.

It's different.

Oh, and they use slightly different terms for concepts, but they still teach you all the basics first.

It is not new math for god sakes.

You want my take? Too bad you said common core now you're gonna get it. The whole basis of common core is testing, and centralized testing at that. Not a test written by the teacher to see if you understand the material, but a test written by a for profit corporation to see if you've memorized the answers in the form they prefer. It doesn't allow for alternative methods to get to the same (correct) answer. The tests are designed in such a way that in most cases teachers have little leeway to teach (and perhaps go explain something not wholly on topic). In short, it allows for no love of learning, spends far too much time on testing, and is created by for profit corporations which is suspect.

/end rant for now

Incorrect.  It encourages alternative methods to get the same correct answer, if my son's common core math homework is any indication.

Hell, it's the part he has the most trouble with.  He just answered the question, why does he have to answer it in a different way?


Maybe your common core is different than the core they developed here. If so at least yours is flexible if repetitive.
 
2014-06-26 11:34:32 PM  

umad: Xcott: umad: Teacher like typing detected. Perhaps you can point out where anyone has suggested that every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor.

So the idiot kids who aren't the teacher's fault will be magically excluded from the test average?  No?

Maybe you should go back to school and go over averages again. You can raise the average score even if the dummies don't do any better than before. That's how averages farking work.


And unless you test the students twice- once before and once after the teacher has instructed them your average can't tell you anything about the instructional interval whatsoever.   Unless you hold all other variables constant (which is practically and ethically impossible) you still won't have certainty that any change in scores is due to the teacher's performance.

Lastly, kids aren't widgets from some business school hypothetical that can be measured with some cost benefit analysis.  They vary in interests, abilities, and culture such that any single or small group of metrics won't tell you if the schools are doing a good job of educating them.  If you've got a large number of kids whose interests and abilities lie more in technical or artistic areas (and are supported in that by their family or culture) than in traditional academics- you're going to be adjudged to be a poorer teacher than the teacher whose students fit the traditional academic mold regardless of whether you are a good teacher or not.  You will find that successful people in the learned professions and academia did very well in school and tested very well,  but there are a multitude of highly successful people in other professions who didn't excel in school or test well.  Think Barack Obama and Mitt Romney versus Mike Rowe and Sean Combs, do you think one standardized metric would predict their success or measure the effect of their education?
 
2014-06-26 11:39:41 PM  

Rent Party: Teachers are the only organization I have ever seen that actively works against having their performance measured as part of an incentive program.


Because studies have shown again and again that teachers are NOT heavily influential with respect to student performance.  There is little a teacher can reasonably do to negate the effect of a crappy home life or a piss-poor attitude.
 
2014-06-26 11:47:38 PM  

umad: Xcott: umad: Teacher like typing detected. Perhaps you can point out where anyone has suggested that every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor.

So the idiot kids who aren't the teacher's fault will be magically excluded from the test average?  No?

Maybe you should go back to school and go over averages again. You can raise the average score even if the dummies don't do any better than before. That's how averages farking work.



But guess who gets to work in schools with higher percentages of dummies?  Teachers crazy, brave, or caring enough to work in urban high-poverty schools.  Education deformers like to pretend that their failure is DUE to the teachers they see, rather than in spite of them.  Let's just put it this way...as a high school teacher, my first two years were spent teaching remedial English courses for 9th & 10th grade students that tested at a 3rd or 4th grade reading level.  Now, was it MY fault they were in 9th & 10th grade, but reading at such a low level?  Nope.  Was it MY fault they weren't at grade-level by the end of the year?  Nope.  Was it MY fault they went up by an average of 3 grade-levels during that year?  I'd like to think I had something to do with it, but I still can't take full credit.

Now, if you start judging teachers based on student performance, guess what happens?  No teacher in their right mind will want to teach at the high-poverty urban schools.  There's already a bit of an experience gap in most of them, because many vets want to head to greener pastures as soon as they can.  However, teachers like me, who commit to a neighborhood and want to stay there for their entire career, will be FORCED to jump ship.  I have a family & kids of my own, and cannot risk or gamble my employment on trying to help turn around the most apathetic and needy.  Get rid of my job security or pay, and I will sadly be forced to jump ship.  Having the same pay and job protections allows me to stay, despite the challenges, and try to make the most difference without gambling my family's well-being.
 
2014-06-26 11:55:29 PM  

SubBass49: umad: Xcott: umad: Teacher like typing detected. Perhaps you can point out where anyone has suggested that every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor.

So the idiot kids who aren't the teacher's fault will be magically excluded from the test average?  No?

Maybe you should go back to school and go over averages again. You can raise the average score even if the dummies don't do any better than before. That's how averages farking work.


But guess who gets to work in schools with higher percentages of dummies?  Teachers crazy, brave, or caring enough to work in urban high-poverty schools.  Education deformers like to pretend that their failure is DUE to the teachers they see, rather than in spite of them.  Let's just put it this way...as a high school teacher, my first two years were spent teaching remedial English courses for 9th & 10th grade students that tested at a 3rd or 4th grade reading level.  Now, was it MY fault they were in 9th & 10th grade, but reading at such a low level?  Nope.  Was it MY fault they weren't at grade-level by the end of the year?  Nope.  Was it MY fault they went up by an average of 3 grade-levels during that year?  I'd like to think I had something to do with it, but I still can't take full credit.

Now, if you start judging teachers based on student performance, guess what happens?  No teacher in their right mind will want to teach at the high-poverty urban schools.  There's already a bit of an experience gap in most of them, because many vets want to head to greener pastures as soon as they can.  However, teachers like me, who commit to a neighborhood and want to stay there for their entire career, will be FORCED to jump ship.  I have a family & kids of my own, and cannot risk or gamble my employment on trying to help turn around the most apathetic and needy.  Get rid of my job security or pay, and I will sadly be forced to jump ship.  Having the same pay and job protections allows me to stay, despite the ...


IOW you would be forced to make a market decision as to where you will sell your labor with an eye towards your own interests, something the education deformers take as a given in their work but think is impossible or unethical in yours.  Funny how they never seem to address that logical necessity that flows from their free market analysis.
 
2014-06-27 12:15:08 AM  

stan unusual: umad: Xcott: umad: Teacher like typing detected. Perhaps you can point out where anyone has suggested that every student has to ace the test for it to count in the teacher's favor.

So the idiot kids who aren't the teacher's fault will be magically excluded from the test average?  No?

Maybe you should go back to school and go over averages again. You can raise the average score even if the dummies don't do any better than before. That's how averages farking work.

And unless you test the students twice- once before and once after the teacher has instructed them your average can't tell you anything about the instructional interval whatsoever.   Unless you hold all other variables constant (which is practically and ethically impossible) you still won't have certainty that any change in scores is due to the teacher's performance.

Lastly, kids aren't widgets from some business school hypothetical that can be measured with some cost benefit analysis.  They vary in interests, abilities, and culture such that any single or small group of metrics won't tell you if the schools are doing a good job of educating them.  If you've got a large number of kids whose interests and abilities lie more in technical or artistic areas (and are supported in that by their family or culture) than in traditional academics- you're going to be adjudged to be a poorer teacher than the teacher whose students fit the traditional academic mold regardless of whether you are a good teacher or not.  You will find that successful people in the learned professions and academia did very well in school and tested very well,  but there are a multitude of highly successful people in other professions who didn't excel in school or test well.  Think Barack Obama and Mitt Romney versus Mike Rowe and Sean Combs, do you think one standardized metric would predict their success or measure the effect of their education?


Jesus Christ. It isn't college. It is high school. The bare minimum. Any idiot can finish even though they are also being taught by idiots. You can worry about turning them into nontraditional success stories later. First get off your ass and teach them how to read and how to do simple math. You know, the easy shiat that you are paid to teach yet are failing miserably at doing.
 
2014-06-27 12:27:11 AM  

umad: Jesus Christ. It isn't college. It is high school. The bare minimum. Any idiot can finish even though they are also being taught by idiots. You can worry about turning them into nontraditional success stories later. First get off your ass and teach them how to read and how to do simple math. You know, the easy shiat that you are paid to teach and actually DO teach,yet the studentsare failing miserably at doing.


Question:  If the same teachers teach a pool of students, and 30% of them fail miserably, but a handful go on to attend Ivy League schools, who failed (students or teachers)?  Curious what you answer will be.
 
2014-06-27 12:56:54 AM  

SubBass49: umad: Jesus Christ. It isn't college. It is high school. The bare minimum. Any idiot can finish even though they are also being taught by idiots. You can worry about turning them into nontraditional success stories later. First get off your ass and teach them how to read and how to do simple math. You know, the easy shiat that you are paid to teach and actually DO teach,yet the studentsare failing miserably at doing.

Begging the Question:  If the same teachers teach a pool of students, and 30% of them fail miserably, but a handful go on to attend Ivy League schools, who failed (students or teachers)?  Curious what you answer will be.


As if you are sending a 'handful' of your students to the Ivies every year. Are you now telling us that you are responsible for the accomplishments of the smart kids? You were just telling us that it isn't your fault when other kids fail. So which is it?

The truth is that smart kids will do fine regardless of how useless you are since they are already smarter than you. The kids you are failing are the average. The stats back it up and all you guys ever do is pass the buck. If you don't have any effect on these kids then why the fark are we paying you? Or better question, why the fark should we pay you more? You have already told us that you don't make a difference. Maybe any money earmarked for teacher raises should be diverted to combat poverty. I'm sure all of you would be all for it since it would make your jobs so much easier.
 
2014-06-27 03:24:49 AM  

umad: SubBass49: umad: Jesus Christ. It isn't college. It is high school. The bare minimum. Any idiot can finish even though they are also being taught by idiots. You can worry about turning them into nontraditional success stories later. First get off your ass and teach them how to read and how to do simple math. You know, the easy shiat that you are paid to teach and actually DO teach,yet the studentsare failing miserably at doing.

Begging the Question:  If the same teachers teach a pool of students, and 30% of them fail miserably, but a handful go on to attend Ivy League schools, who failed (students or teachers)?  Curious what you answer will be.

As if you are sending a 'handful' of your students to the Ivies every year. Are you now telling us that you are responsible for the accomplishments of the smart kids? You were just telling us that it isn't your fault when other kids fail. So which is it?

The truth is that smart kids will do fine regardless of how useless you are since they are already smarter than you. The kids you are failing are the average. The stats back it up and all you guys ever do is pass the buck. If you don't have any effect on these kids then why the fark are we paying you? Or better question, why the fark should we pay you more? You have already told us that you don't make a difference. Maybe any money earmarked for teacher raises should be diverted to combat poverty. I'm sure all of you would be all for it since it would make your jobs so much easier.


So, basically your argument is that the kids that do well don't do well because of good teachers, but because they're just magically geniuses?  Whereas the kids that do poorly are completely the fault of shiatty teachers ruining their lives?

Damn, you're about as bright as a broken lightbulb, son.

The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of teachers work their asses off to provide a quality education to their students.  The students that actually take that information in, process it, and do the work as directed end up doing well.  The kids who make excuses, whose parents dont give a flying fark, or who (like you) just blame everything on teachers (absolving their children from any responsibility), do poorly.

Riddle me this, dipshiat:  I teach ART1 to high school students.  When I have students who score lower than a 40% in MOTHERFARKING ART CLASS, but manage to have others that go on to earn over 100% with extra credit (many of whom go on to attend programs such as Art Institutes, Platt, and even OTIS), who exactly failed?  It's farking ART CLASS.  You do the work & turn it in, and you are guaranteed a passing grade, yet a good third of the students don't even manage to do THAT simple task!

I'm going to go ahead and just add you to the "dumb as a brick" category on my favorites.  That way I can keep up with your entertainingly stupid misadventures.
 
2014-06-27 03:44:34 AM  
My son is in first grade at a school where they've adopted Common Core. They also have a big honking smart media board at the front of the classroom.

Instead of spending their math lessons actually learning addition and subtraction, by writing numbers, they take most of their time filling in boxes with different colors. My son learned to count when he was 3 and could add single-digit numbers to form two-digit numbers when he was 4. We stopped practicing with him when he started his school lessons at age 6, and he actually forgot the simple addition because of all the distractions.

We now have him do math exercises at home for a half-hour every evening and his performance is back to where it was when he was 4.

Large portions of Common Core are total bullshiat.
 
2014-06-27 07:33:38 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: Aetre: Teacher, here.

Honestly, the Common Core initiative would be FINE if it would just eliminate its testing component. Just sayin'.

Without measurement there is no accountability.  How do you propose to objectively measure performance without testing?


You get inside the school and inspect it while classes are going on. You take the teacher evaluation piece out of the hands of school administrators who have a vested interest in the outcome.
 
2014-06-27 08:06:43 AM  

stan unusual: And unless you test the students twice- once before and once after the teacher has instructed them your average can't tell you anything about the instructional interval whatsoever.


Yes.  As I said above, it's like blaming a chef if a customer is obese at the end of a meal.

I'm surprised that so many people don't seem to comprehend this:  that a single measurement doesn't tell you how much you've improved something.  I invested your money in the stock market and now it's worth $10,000; did I do a good job or a bad job?

Yet this is what we plan to do to teachers.  We're going to blame the teacher if a class of kids is below average, regardless of how they were when they arrived, just as NCLB targeted entire schools---but you have poor communities where all the kids entering the high school are well below average.  Therefore the high school is bad?  Therefore the 9th grade teacher is bad?

You can use student performance to measure teacher performance and school quality, but not simply by sending the kids off to take a standardized test.  That's just a thinly veiled pretext to take money from communities where students are historically below average.
 
2014-06-27 08:16:54 AM  

cretinbob: You know teachers don't get paid during the summer, right cockgobblermitter?


Most people don't know that almost every teacher gets paid only for the school year (usually 180 days or so) and not the summer months (unless they teach summer school) and opts to have that pay spread out over 12 months to make budgeting easier. Sure they collect a paycheck every month but the 12 month paycheck is smaller than what they actually make for the months that they do work. They are essentially laid off for the summer but with no unemployment compensation.
 
2014-06-27 08:23:04 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: In most districts teachers can take their pay over 9 or over 12 months. So you're wrong about that.


They aren't getting "Paid" if they opt for the 12 month plan. They are getting back pay for the last three months of that 12 month period.
 
2014-06-27 08:51:01 AM  

Xcott: That's because teaching is the only job where "your" performance evaluation is a test given to someone else.

Think of one of the dumber kids you encountered in school. The ones who inspired the phrase "you can't cure stupid." The one who tried to lick a live wire, and who mocked the other kids for paying attention in class. The idea here is that we're going to test that kid, and penalize his teacher because he is that kid. We're going to blame the kid's current teacher for every bit of stupid that kid has accumulated.


I think that there are ways around that. Lets say student #1 gets a 70 in testing year one and then a 90 in years 2 and 3. That alone means nothing in and of itself but then you compare the rest of the class and the year one scores are consistently lower almost across the board while the year 2 and 3 scores are consistently higher by the same margin. Now then, either the year 1 curriculum is too hard or the year 1 teacher is doing a poor job. Then you compare that year 1 teacher against other year 1 teachers teaching the same curriculum and if they all have 70's then the curriculum is at fault, if that year 1 teacher is the outlier then that teacher either needs more training or the teacher is probably a bad teacher for whatever reason.

It would take at least a couple of years to build up the database on something like this but unless the administration is intentionally sent known "Problem" kids to only one teacher (and this does happen when a particular teacher is known to be able to keep those types of kids under control) I'd say it's a case of a bad teacher.
 
2014-06-27 09:03:07 AM  
Bill Gates was (probably) well-intended, unless he secretly holds stock in large organizations which will benefit when schools are fully privatized (made entirely into businesses). What that does for anyone but him however, for example the nation and its kids, I have no idea. But money is definitely moving around in this school privatization process.
 
2014-06-27 09:35:28 AM  

BMFPitt: stan unusual: umad: B.L.Z. Bub: But seriously, I'm not exactly married to the idea of testing to evaluate teachers' performance. I'm open to alternative ideas, it's just that I have yet to hear any GOOD alternatives proposed.

Because there is no good alternative. The only way to know if a student learned anything is to ask them to demonstrate what they have learned.

Should we apply the same standards to doctors and dentists and pay them solely on the basis of patient outcomes or should we recognize that while good outcomes are positively associated with good dental and medical care they are not necessarily the cause of all patient outcomes?

Yes.


This. It's happening in medicine.
 
2014-06-27 09:37:57 AM  

Xcott: stan unusual: And unless you test the students twice- once before and once after the teacher has instructed them your average can't tell you anything about the instructional interval whatsoever.

Yes.  As I said above, it's like blaming a chef if a customer is obese at the end of a meal.

I'm surprised that so many people don't seem to comprehend this:  that a single measurement doesn't tell you how much you've improved something.  I invested your money in the stock market and now it's worth $10,000; did I do a good job or a bad job?

Yet this is what we plan to do to teachers.  We're going to blame the teacher if a class of kids is below average, regardless of how they were when they arrived, just as NCLB targeted entire schools---but you have poor communities where all the kids entering the high school are well below average.  Therefore the high school is bad?  Therefore the 9th grade teacher is bad?

You can use student performance to measure teacher performance and school quality, but not simply by sending the kids off to take a standardized test.  That's just a thinly veiled pretext to take money from communities where students are historically below average.


Here (Michigan) they test the students here at the beginning of the year and at the end of the year. This data can be used to evaluate student progress over the year.

Where do they test students just once a year?
 
2014-06-27 11:23:34 AM  

gfid: So, the complaint is teachers want more money as usual.

I'm looking at a common core sample test (English, grade 12).  It doesn't seem too bad.  Not all kids are going to get perfect scores, but it seems reasonable to expect them to at least pass it.

Now stop whining and do something productive you badasses.


But if the kids don't improve on their scores, and keep getting higher and higher percentages and progress higher and higher each year, the teacher who taught them last gets disciplined.

It's like the profit margins.
If the percentage of increase in profits is not higher than last year, not only do you not get a raise, you can either get a talkin' to, or you're fired.

Not if the profits are higher than last year.
Not if you made any profit whatsoever.

An increase in the growth of profits.


As an incentive marker, this shiat is ridiculous in any sort of market: Private or Public.
 
2014-06-27 12:10:36 PM  

Radioactive Ass: Xcott: That's because teaching is the only job where "your" performance evaluation is a test given to someone else.

Think of one of the dumber kids you encountered in school. The ones who inspired the phrase "you can't cure stupid." The one who tried to lick a live wire, and who mocked the other kids for paying attention in class. The idea here is that we're going to test that kid, and penalize his teacher because he is that kid. We're going to blame the kid's current teacher for every bit of stupid that kid has accumulated.

I think that there are ways around that. Lets say student #1 gets a 70 in testing year one and then a 90 in years 2 and 3. That alone means nothing in and of itself but then you compare the rest of the class and the year one scores are consistently lower almost across the board while the year 2 and 3 scores are consistently higher by the same margin. Now then, either the year 1 curriculum is too hard or the year 1 teacher is doing a poor job. Then you compare that year 1 teacher against other year 1 teachers teaching the same curriculum and if they all have 70's then the curriculum is at fault, if that year 1 teacher is the outlier then that teacher either needs more training or the teacher is probably a bad teacher for whatever reason.

It would take at least a couple of years to build up the database on something like this but unless the administration is intentionally sent known "Problem" kids to only one teacher (and this does happen when a particular teacher is known to be able to keep those types of kids under control) I'd say it's a case of a bad teacher.


LA LA LA TEACHERS AREN'T LISTENING
My mother-in-law is a good teacher and makes plenty of money in Washington state. Her #1 complaint is meddling administrators who want to make their mark on the system by implementing the fancy things they learned getting their Doctor Educationis. She'll have worked up a kick-ass curriculum over the last three years and now, WOOHOO!, it's time to Change Everything. And don't do that thing that's working; it's outmoded. So she opted to be the librarian after 10 years of teaching instead of getting a raise. Anyhow, would she accept the evaluation you described above? Yes. Why? She's an excellent teacher. Kids in her class progress faster than they do in other classes. Who has to fear from it? Teachers who can't prove they're good.

What do we want?
LESS ACCOUNTABILITY, BETTER PAY!
When do we want it?
ALWAYS!
 
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