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(Salon)   Pope Francis isn't a reformer, he's another Pope John Paul II, only with a better PR man   (salon.com) divider line 65
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3320 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2014 at 12:15 PM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-23 09:39:55 AM  
He took office a little over a year ago and took control of a 2000 year old organization with a sprawling bureaucracy, laws and traditions that transcend national boundaries.

Give him some time.

/This woman sounds like those people who complained that Obama didn't fix everything 1 year after he took office.
 
2014-06-23 10:00:45 AM  
The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.
 
2014-06-23 10:01:59 AM  
Oh shut up.
 
2014-06-23 10:02:25 AM  
Though she has a point about his rhetoric not being backed up with actual policy/catechal changes, I find
the implication that Benedict XVI stepped down because US Catholics weren't giving as much money rather
dubious.  If the turmoil in the church over the past couple of decades has shown us anything its that they
really don't give a rat's ass about public opinion.
 
2014-06-23 10:06:12 AM  
So, what's her FARK Handle?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-06-23 10:28:06 AM  

RexTalionis: He took office a little over a year ago and took control of a 2000 year old organization with a sprawling bureaucracy, laws and traditions that transcend national boundaries.

Give him some time.


Actually, he has done some things as Pope.  Its been apparent for some time that he isn't as liberal as he pretends to be.
 
2014-06-23 10:37:52 AM  
We need a [NO shiat] tag.

DjangoStonereaver: Though she has a point about his rhetoric not being backed up with actual policy/catechal changes, I find
the implication that Benedict XVI stepped down because US Catholics weren't giving as much money rather
dubious.  If the turmoil in the church over the past couple of decades has shown us anything its that they
really don't give a rat's ass about public opinion.


Benedict stepped down because he saw what happened to JP2.  JP2, nice guy that he was, ended up incapable of handling his own affairs for many years at the end of his life and the Curia took advantage of that shamelessly.  It's Vatican Political Tradition.  That's what old popes are for.

Benedict didn't trust his Curia (and I think that's very wise), so he decided to GTFO before he lost the ability to speak for himself.

Francis, on the other hand, is every bit as hard-line on policy.  He just says it nicer and washes the feet of more beggars, so to speak.
 
2014-06-23 10:43:54 AM  

SkinnyHead: The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.


Actually anti-Catholic bigotry was a Conservative cause since this country's founding. JFK faced the full wrath of the Christian Protestant Conservative movement.
 
2014-06-23 11:06:01 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: SkinnyHead: The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.

Actually anti-Catholic bigotry was a Conservative cause since this country's founding. JFK faced the full wrath of the Christian Protestant Conservative movement.


Well now it appears to be a Liberal cause.
 
2014-06-23 11:29:05 AM  

SkinnyHead: PC LOAD LETTER: SkinnyHead: The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.

Actually anti-Catholic bigotry was a Conservative cause since this country's founding. JFK faced the full wrath of the Christian Protestant Conservative movement.

Well now it appears to be a Liberal cause.

To be fair, it isn't specific to Catholics. I hate all religions equally.
 
2014-06-23 11:42:25 AM  
media0.giphy.com
 
2014-06-23 11:58:52 AM  
Oh noes! The head of a 2000 year old religion isn't changing his stuffy old ways fast enough for western civilization fatasses stuffing their craws with pork rinds and lamenting how


ok I can't keep going with the sarcasm, sorry.

Look, you have legitimate reasons to rag on the church if you want. Try to pick a different target whydoncha, he seems like a decent guy who tries his best within church doctrine.
 
2014-06-23 12:06:35 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Francis, on the other hand, is every bit as hard-line on policy.  He just says it nicer and washes the feet of more beggars, so to speak.


Yes and no.

The Roman Catholic Church as a formal institution is about 1700 years old, give or take. When it came into being, Constantine the Great was the Emperor of Rome, and the stirrup hadn't been invented yet. Even leaving aside the textual constraints of a religion founded on written Scripture, it is inevitable that any organization that old is going to be more conservative. It's a simple function of human nature.

I would argue that Francis IS the liberal informer he seems to be. It's just that he is liberal within the spectrum of the church, not within the spectrum of European or American society at large. If the US social spectrum looks like this:

Commie-----------Socialist-----------Liberal-------Moderate---------C o nservative---------Reactionary---Fascist
 
Then the church spectrum looks like this, measured against the same scale:

                                                                                                                           L-M-C

It's a narrow range. By broader standards, he IS less conservative than Pope Palpatine, but he's in no way no liberal, save on certain issues of social justice where the church has *always* been liberal.

If you look at the church's spectrum from an insider's viewpoint though, it looks like this:

Protestant Nutbags-----------------Liberal Priests---------Moderates---------Conservatives-------------Orthodox

On THIS spectrum, he's pretty solidly in the liberal camp, especially by orthodox standards. Same theology, far more liberal interpretation.
 
2014-06-23 12:17:00 PM  
No shiat Sherlock. Nice of Fark to finally realize that he has yet to actually BACK UP any of what he's been saying since he took over that show.

/well, most of Fark
//the rest of you will see the light eventually
 
2014-06-23 12:18:03 PM  
He just excommunicated every member of the mafia. He is the first Pope to directly confront what the mafia does to Italy, and he's not even Italian himself. Not a reformer my ass.
 
2014-06-23 12:19:04 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Actually anti-Catholic bigotry was a Conservative cause since this country's founding. JFK faced the full wrath of the Christian Protestant Conservative movement.


It is bigotry to judge Catholics for being raised as Catholics.  You can't control that.  But you can condemn the fact that the religion is completely predicated on nonsense.  And certain official beliefs as being downright evil.
 
2014-06-23 12:19:36 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Nice of Fark to finally realize that he has yet to actually BACK UP any of what he's been saying since he took over that show.


It's not like he's housing who knows how many African migrants on church property since there's nowhere for them to go and they are technically illegal immigrants. It's not like he hasn't fired the people in charge of the Vatican Bank, twice, for being inept. It's not like he hasn't said it's not his place to judge who gets to heaven.
 
2014-06-23 12:22:22 PM  

WhyteRaven74: t


That's all very well and nice, but when is he going to get around to taking care of his pedophile priests? The ones that he and all the church know about and choose to remove to different locations rather than actually take to justice?
 
2014-06-23 12:27:02 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: but when is he going to get around to taking care of his pedophile priests?


You have any idea how hard it is to figure out who is responsible for what when people have willfully doctored records? It's not the sort of thing you can do overnight. Also he does have people working on it. It's not going to do any good to just go after the people who actually did something, he's also going to have to go after the people who let it happen and figuring who let what happen is at the end of the day the hard part.
 
2014-06-23 12:27:19 PM  
Wow.  We  have an article in a leftist rag by a leftist writer who has decided the pope doesn't believe as she does so he is wrong and anyone who likes the pope is misinformed and has been hoodwinked.  Words cannot express how surprising this is.
 
2014-06-23 12:28:43 PM  
Well, he hasn't started handing out condoms and packs of BCPs, nor has he invited a bunch of gays to whack off with him to raunchy A2M porn, so yeah, we have to hate him. After all, he was supposed to have to have transformed the Catholic Church into Unitarianism overnight, right? There is no pleasing Americans anymore. They can't even see the middle of the road.
 
2014-06-23 12:30:45 PM  
Wow, an article that uses other opinion articles as source material.  It's like using the easy button to find the easy button.

I guess starting change isn't good enough, it should all have been implemented by now.  I mean the Pope is omnipotent, right?
 
2014-06-23 12:30:46 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: WhyteRaven74: t

That's all very well and nice, but when is he going to get around to taking care of his pedophile priests? The ones that he and all the church know about and choose to remove to different locations rather than actually take to justice?


Look, he's spoken publically about how raping children is not a nice thing to do. And he asked for forgiveness in April of this year. You can't just expect the Pope who has direct control over the situation to just somehow stop priests from sexually assaulting children.

You have to be willing to give him time and allow a few hundred more children to be sexually assaulted before children can stop being sexually assaulted.

It's more important to listen to what he says and how he says it rather than what he actually does.
 
2014-06-23 12:32:55 PM  

WhyteRaven74: He just excommunicated every member of the mafia. He is the first Pope to directly confront what the mafia does to Italy, and he's not even Italian himself. Not a reformer my ass.


Actually wrong, the church and its followers have promoted him as being of Italian descent as his father was an immigrant and his mothers family was from northern Italy.  He is Italian.

Jorge Mario Bergoglio is his real name...

He was a stop gap to saving the latin american populace from defecting to other religions.  Rome ok'd him because of the italian heritage, because otherwise they could have chosen someone from latin america who was not of italian heritage, but the Vatican would have never done that.  So they got the best of both worlds in a PR move.

I can tell you from personal experience in Argentina(where they all think they are European.) My father was born in Colombia with a unique last name due to his parents being Spanish Jews, my mother is from south louisiana with a sicilian last name.

I went to Argentina on a work trip and the hotel staff was super rude when they saw my Colombian and American passport, then then they saw my surnames, I was treated like royalty because of them.
 
2014-06-23 12:33:50 PM  
images.sodahead.com
 
2014-06-23 12:35:52 PM  

WhyteRaven74: The My Little Pony Killer: Nice of Fark to finally realize that he has yet to actually BACK UP any of what he's been saying since he took over that show.

It's not like he's housing who knows how many African migrants on church property since there's nowhere for them to go and they are technically illegal immigrants. It's not like he hasn't fired the people in charge of the Vatican Bank, twice, for being inept. It's not like he hasn't said it's not his place to judge who gets to heaven.


Don't bother arguing. Some people hate the Catholics like the Teaparty hates Obama. If the Pope farted rainbows they'd complain it smelled too strongly of roses. He's begun all sorts of reforms and spoken out on social issues that the Church was failing but wharggble he hasn't let lesbian women become priests. The critics won't be happy until the Pope abandons Catholicism.
 
2014-06-23 12:43:18 PM  

JackieRabbit: There is no pleasing Americans anymore. They can't even see the middle of the road.


You're just now getting this?
 
2014-06-23 12:46:58 PM  

SkinnyHead: PC LOAD LETTER: SkinnyHead: The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.

Actually anti-Catholic bigotry was a Conservative cause since this country's founding. JFK faced the full wrath of the Christian Protestant Conservative movement.

Well now it appears to be a Liberal cause.


They resent that the Catholic Church actually tried to teach black people.

And incidentally, by Catholic papal standards, JP2 was a reformer. Pius XII and Benedict was more orthodox.
 
2014-06-23 12:49:39 PM  

Weatherkiss: You can't just expect the Pope who has direct control over the situation to just somehow stop priests from sexually assaulting children.


Hypothetically, how would you go about doing it?

We're not talking punishment here, we're talking "stop priests from sexually assaulting children."
 
2014-06-23 12:50:38 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: SkinnyHead: The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.

Actually anti-Catholic bigotry was a Conservative cause since this country's founding. JFK faced the full wrath of the Christian Protestant Conservative movement.


Why, pray tell, might there have been an anti-Catholic bias during this country's founding?
It's almost as if quite a few of the first immigrants had a bone to pick with Church/State.
 
2014-06-23 12:53:20 PM  

wellreadneck: Why, pray tell, might there have been an anti-Catholic bias during this country's founding?


www.luminarium.org

\It wasn't "New Amsterdam" anymore.
 
2014-06-23 12:56:27 PM  

theflatline: WhyteRaven74: He just excommunicated every member of the mafia. He is the first Pope to directly confront what the mafia does to Italy, and he's not even Italian himself. Not a reformer my ass.

Actually wrong, the church and its followers have promoted him as being of Italian descent as his father was an immigrant and his mothers family was from northern Italy.  He is Italian.

Jorge Mario Bergoglio is his real name...

He was a stop gap to saving the latin american populace from defecting to other religions.  Rome ok'd him because of the italian heritage, because otherwise they could have chosen someone from latin america who was not of italian heritage, but the Vatican would have never done that.  So they got the best of both worlds in a PR move.

I can tell you from personal experience in Argentina(where they all think they are European.) My father was born in Colombia with a unique last name due to his parents being Spanish Jews, my mother is from south louisiana with a sicilian last name.

I went to Argentina on a work trip and the hotel staff was super rude when they saw my Colombian and American passport, then then they saw my surnames, I was treated like royalty because of them.


You might wanna actually fact check your bullshiat there

46% of Argentina is Italian
 
2014-06-23 12:58:12 PM  

RexTalionis: He took office a little over a year ago and took control of a 2000 year old organization with a sprawling bureaucracy, laws and traditions that transcend national boundaries.

Give him some time.

/This woman sounds like those people who complained that Obama didn't fix everything 1 year after he took office.


And lest we forget this organization actively covered up the mental, physical, and sexual abuse of children for more than five decades, systematically protecting and promoting the abusers to the extent that the last pope abdicated his position rather than face the issue and his role in the protection of pederasts. "Fixing" the Catholic Church is going to take a long, dedicated effort, and if push comes to shove I'm sure Francis will have a convenient heart attack if he follows the money too closely, just like JP1..
 
2014-06-23 01:00:13 PM  

wellreadneck: Why, pray tell, might there have been an anti-Catholic bias during this country's founding?
It's almost as if quite a few of the first immigrants had a bone to pick with Church/State.


Really?  You don't actually know the deal with puritans?  Anti-Catholicism was actually a bit of a identifying characteristic of the ideology.  Pennsylvania(even though Sean Penn, was, himself, a Quaker) was practically established as a haven from explicit anti-Catholic laws.

For example, in Virginia, it was illegal to settle if one was a Catholic.

Even Rhode Island, famous for its supposed policy of religious toleration, inserted an anti-Catholic statute imposing civil restrictions on Catholics in the colony's first published code of laws in 1719. Not until 1783 was the act revoked. Cite

Such sentiments never really went away entirely.
 
2014-06-23 01:02:47 PM  
Francis is a reformer in the truest sense.  He's not starting with changing church policy to suit liberal hippies ideas of what the Catholic church should be.  He's starting with the farking money, like he should.   He's fired four of the five cardinals that ran the Vatican Bank for incompetence or corruption, and excommunicated the entire Italian mafia for their ties to it.

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/al-jazeera-america-presents /a rticles/2014/3/24/the-vatican-hopestofightscandalwithfinancialreform.h tml

He's kicking the money lenders out of the temple again.  And good on him for it.
 
2014-06-23 01:04:23 PM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: WhyteRaven74: The My Little Pony Killer: Nice of Fark to finally realize that he has yet to actually BACK UP any of what he's been saying since he took over that show.

It's not like he's housing who knows how many African migrants on church property since there's nowhere for them to go and they are technically illegal immigrants. It's not like he hasn't fired the people in charge of the Vatican Bank, twice, for being inept. It's not like he hasn't said it's not his place to judge who gets to heaven.

Don't bother arguing. Some people hate the Catholics like the Teaparty hates Obama. If the Pope farted rainbows they'd complain it smelled too strongly of roses. He's begun all sorts of reforms and spoken out on social issues that the Church was failing but wharggble he hasn't let lesbian women become priests. The critics won't be happy until the Pope abandons Catholicism.


Oh how sad big meanies are pointing out quite correctly places where the church is wrong, bigoted or, outdated, how bigoted of them.

Look, very few US catholics HAVEN'T abandoned catholicism. Yes there are some traditionalists and opus dei whackos but not many of them. THEY will be happy when the pope abandons catholicism. THEY will be happy when the church is much more liberal and modern. Me? I'll be happy when the last priest is strangled with the entrails of the last king (or reality tv star if we're running short of kings).
 
2014-06-23 01:04:49 PM  

SkinnyHead: The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.


Bigotry would mean they are receiving undeserved hate.  After thousands of years of waging war over religious belief, the systematic hiding and laundering of billions of dollars of blood money, and hiding child molesters in a way to skirt the law but as to abuse more children has deemed the Catholic church more than apt to receive a bit of hatred.

They have ruined millions of people lives.
 
2014-06-23 01:06:06 PM  
Pope Francis is taking baby-steps to win people back to the Church. You have to crawl before you can walk.
 
2014-06-23 01:06:10 PM  
No he hasn't changed much. But he. Has been working througha massive beaurocracy for a year. And, even the, he hasn't even been talking about significant changes, he has been talking about shifting which aspects they focus on.

He didn't say they will support abortion and the poor. He said, the church has and will continue to oppose abortion and support aiding the poor (remember the church came out against the Catholic Paul Ryan's "religiously inspired" budget?). But that the church should shift the focus of its efforts from abortion and focus on the poor.

I don't expect much from him, but give him credit for taking some baby steps in the right direction (and consider his personal actions) and hope that they can be built upon. Maybe in a few decades the Catholic Church can say "we oppose abortions but will not stand in the way of people outside our church obtaining them".

When John Paul II died, there was a lot of talk about what direction the church would take. And when Benedict was selected, commentators took it as kickingthe can down the road, let's hope Francis this is the first small step forward even if it is mostly figurative.
 
2014-06-23 01:10:38 PM  

Alphakronik: SkinnyHead: The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism.

Anti-Catholic bigotry cloaked in liberalism is still anti-Catholic bigotry.

Bigotry would mean they are receiving undeserved hate.  After thousands of years of waging war over religious belief, the systematic hiding and laundering of billions of dollars of blood money, and hiding child molesters in a way to skirt the law but as to abuse more children has deemed the Catholic church more than apt to receive a bit of hatred.

They have ruined millions of people lives.


No, I'm pretty sure that's bigotry, actually.    I hate to come to the side of an organized religion and Skinnyhead, but you seem to think that because there's organization, there's this monolith where everyone involved supports everything that happens.
 
2014-06-23 01:11:56 PM  

cptjeff: JackieRabbit: There is no pleasing Americans anymore. They can't even see the middle of the road.

You're just now getting this?


No, I've watched become intolerable over the last 20 years.

Non-Cartholics: it isn't our Church. So we get to STFUASD. Is this so hard to understand?
 
2014-06-23 01:12:30 PM  

WhyteRaven74: He just excommunicated every member of the mafia. He is the first Pope to directly confront what the mafia does to Italy, and he's not even Italian himself. Not a reformer my ass.


Come on, don't you know the only issues that matter are homosexuality and birth controlwomen's health?
 
2014-06-23 01:13:40 PM  

Rent Party: Francis is a reformer in the truest sense.  He's not starting with changing church policy to suit liberal hippies ideas of what the Catholic church should be.  He's starting with the farking money, like he should.   He's fired four of the five cardinals that ran the Vatican Bank for incompetence or corruption, and excommunicated the entire Italian mafia for their ties to it.

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/al-jazeera-america-presents /a rticles/2014/3/24/the-vatican-hopestofightscandalwithfinancialreform.h tml

He's kicking the money lenders out of the temple again.  And good on him for it.


Now I want to see that image that goes don't forget that Asking what Jesus would do includes flipping tables and chasing people with whips to have the Pope's face photoshopped on it.
 
2014-06-23 01:22:01 PM  

Benni K Rok: Rent Party: Francis is a reformer in the truest sense.  He's not starting with changing church policy to suit liberal hippies ideas of what the Catholic church should be.  He's starting with the farking money, like he should.   He's fired four of the five cardinals that ran the Vatican Bank for incompetence or corruption, and excommunicated the entire Italian mafia for their ties to it.

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/al-jazeera-america-presents /a rticles/2014/3/24/the-vatican-hopestofightscandalwithfinancialreform.h tml

He's kicking the money lenders out of the temple again.  And good on him for it.

Now I want to see that image that goes don't forget that Asking what Jesus would do includes flipping tables and chasing people with whips to have the Pope's face photoshopped on it.


If I could photochop worth a damn, I'd totally do that.  But I haven't even seen a number of shops in my day...
 
2014-06-23 01:23:20 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org upload.wikimedia.org upload.wikimedia.org upload.wikimedia.org upload.wikimedia.org upload.wikimedia.org

Eternal Salvation is guaranteed or triple your money back.
 
2014-06-23 01:23:38 PM  
Jesus H. Christ why hasn't this Pope stopped being Catholic yet? I mean that's what I really want to see, a Pope without all that religious hooey.
 
2014-06-23 01:48:32 PM  
I'm certain that the ghost of Eddie Bernays himself floats above the head of Pope Fonzie and whispers advice- some sagely, some diabolical, all most profitable for Mother Church.
 
2014-06-23 01:51:29 PM  

DjangoStonereaver: Though she has a point about his rhetoric not being backed up with actual policy/catechal changes, I find
the implication that Benedict XVI stepped down because US Catholics weren't giving as much money rather
dubious.  If the turmoil in the church over the past couple of decades has shown us anything its that they
really don't give a rat's ass about public opinion.


Who said they cared about  opinion?The article stated they cared about  money,which I find completely plausible.
 
2014-06-23 01:53:22 PM  

JackieRabbit: Non-Cartholics: it isn't our Church. So we get to STFUASD. Is this so hard to understand?


and you shouldn't do politics, cos that's for white folks. and men.
 
2014-06-23 01:55:45 PM  

ShadowKamui: theflatline: WhyteRaven74: He just excommunicated every member of the mafia. He is the first Pope to directly confront what the mafia does to Italy, and he's not even Italian himself. Not a reformer my ass.

Actually wrong, the church and its followers have promoted him as being of Italian descent as his father was an immigrant and his mothers family was from northern Italy.  He is Italian.

Jorge Mario Bergoglio is his real name...

He was a stop gap to saving the latin american populace from defecting to other religions.  Rome ok'd him because of the italian heritage, because otherwise they could have chosen someone from latin america who was not of italian heritage, but the Vatican would have never done that.  So they got the best of both worlds in a PR move.

I can tell you from personal experience in Argentina(where they all think they are European.) My father was born in Colombia with a unique last name due to his parents being Spanish Jews, my mother is from south louisiana with a sicilian last name.

I went to Argentina on a work trip and the hotel staff was super rude when they saw my Colombian and American passport, then then they saw my surnames, I was treated like royalty because of them.

You might wanna actually fact check your bullshiat there

46% of Argentina is Italian


Why do I need to fact check?  You might need to check your reading comprehension.

I never denied the Italian heritage in Argentina. The fact is that most Argentines think they are of pure European stock and that the rest of Latin America is beneath them.  I also pointed out in my post that when they saw my Italian surname it was like I was a member of the old boys club.

There are many Argentines of Italian descent, but are not pure bred Italians.  As a matter of fact most people in Latin America are descended from Spanish peasants but they all cling to some dream of being descended from European royalty.

Of course all those Italians never married any other than Italians or farked the maid...  Latin American pride is a motherfarker.
 
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