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(Slate)   Slate decides to ruin everyone's summer by making people feel bad about visiting the zoo. "It's terrible for animals; it's a prison for them and causes sociological problems for them"   (slate.com) divider line 107
    More: Stupid, Central Park Zoo, Association of Zoos, behavioral therapy, whale watching, captive animals, wildlife rehabilitation, non-disclosure agreement, journalists  
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1531 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Jun 2014 at 2:22 PM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-21 11:58:30 AM
Slate decides to ruin everyone's  summer by making people feel bad about visiting the zoo. "It's terrible for animals; it's a prison for them and causes sociological problems for them"...
 
2014-06-21 12:04:46 PM
Love them or hate them the sad truth about zoos is if we as a species do t stop destroying their natural habitat, zoos may be the only lifeboat they have to avoid extinction.
 
2014-06-21 12:34:31 PM
And if you put them in the wild, some poachers will kill them, take a few parts, and leave the rest of the corpse rotting in the sun.  I guess you have to choose your battles.
 
2014-06-21 01:20:59 PM
Depends on the zoo of course. Busch Gardens for example saves a lot of animals and gives them natural habitats.
 
2014-06-21 02:24:50 PM
Silly Slate, animals exist solely for the pleasure and profit of humans. Your argument is invalid.
 
2014-06-21 02:28:58 PM
Guess you're rightnot much left to do but close up the zoo and shoot all the animals.
 
2014-06-21 02:30:41 PM
Can't go to zoos. Find them too depressing.
 
2014-06-21 02:30:52 PM
Silly Slate. The Bible says we have dominion over animals...


 partywiththis.com
 
2014-06-21 02:31:22 PM
Elephant isn't this thread again.
 
2014-06-21 02:31:32 PM

Yogimus: Guess you're rightnot much left to do but close up the zoo and shoot all the animals.


Then can we eat them?
 
2014-06-21 02:36:08 PM
Wait, but prisons for people are ok though... Even for petty shiat...

People are farked up...
 
2014-06-21 02:36:23 PM
Not a fan of people who imprison animals for profit.

I do not go to zoos.
 
2014-06-21 02:39:35 PM
just go to any decent sized city downtown in 'murica if you want to see the Zoo.  it's free too.
 
2014-06-21 02:39:47 PM

wax_on: Can't go to zoos. Find them too depressing.


The last time I went to a zoo--the very nice National Zoo in D.C. by the way--I watched a cheetah cruise the outer perimeter of its fence all the way around, for over an hour. Didn't stop, didn't look at anything, just ran the fence. It had a path worn up against the fence and apparently it spent a lot of time just circling the fenceline, over and over.

I don't care for zoos.
 
2014-06-21 02:39:59 PM

Son of Thunder: Yogimus: Guess you're rightnot much left to do but close up the zoo and shoot all the animals.

Then can we eat them?


My buddy did 2 tours in the Iraq.  One day him and the rest of his unit were in the middle of the desert and they find this zoo.  It's completely abandoned except for the animals.  They're all very hungry so they decide to kill one of the animals and eat it.  They elect to kill a giraffe.  He said it wasn't bad.
 
2014-06-21 02:40:24 PM
Are there zoos that should be shut down? Yes.
Are there zoos doing some great work? Yes.
Is this a more complicated issue than many make it out to be? You bet your sweet baboon ass.
 
2014-06-21 02:40:59 PM

Linux_Yes: just go to any decent sized city downtown in 'murica if you want to see the Zoo.  it's free too.



in fact, in 'murica, you have to pay to get out (suburbs) of the zoo, not to get into the zoo.
 
2014-06-21 02:46:16 PM
Yawn.  Another PETA nutter over-anthropomorphizing animals in captivity.  Yes, it introduces them to different kinds of stressors.  No, I don't think anyone can definitively say that those stressors are and worse than having to constantly seek food and avoid predators.

And for the record, the zoos that keep animals behind bars in bare concrete enclosures need to go, as do ALL forms of animal performance.
 
2014-06-21 02:47:58 PM

John Dewey: Are there zoos that should be shut down? Yes.
Are there zoos doing some great work? Yes.
Is this a more complicated issue than many make it out to be? You bet your sweet baboon ass.


This.

But Americans don't like complexity. If it can't be bombed away then it isn't a problem.
 
2014-06-21 02:49:35 PM
Major zoos are at the forefront of wildlife conservation, research, and education.

It is true that they are still learning about how to make the best possible captive environment for each species. But a lot of the reason that animals range over large areas is that they need that large an area to find food. That isn't an issue in a zoo.
 
2014-06-21 02:50:36 PM

brimed03: John Dewey: Are there zoos that should be shut down? Yes.
Are there zoos doing some great work? Yes.
Is this a more complicated issue than many make it out to be? You bet your sweet baboon ass.

This.

But Americans don't like complexity. If it can't be bombed away then it isn't a problem.


It's not that complex. It's neatly summed up in two sentences at the beginning of this quote.
 
2014-06-21 02:51:14 PM
They should let John Cleese and Kevin Klein run them. At least it would be more entertaining
 
2014-06-21 02:51:33 PM

JoieD'Zen: Silly Slate, animals exist solely for the pleasure and profit of humans. Your argument is invalid.


Animals exist for no reason except evolution and random chance. Just like us. Meh.
 
2014-06-21 02:53:30 PM
That settles it.  I'm going to the zoo.
 
2014-06-21 02:57:20 PM

netcentric: Not a fan of people who imprison animals for profit.

I do not go to zoos.


What if you do it for fun, but not profit?
 
2014-06-21 02:57:29 PM

genner: It's not that complex. It's neatly summed up in two sentences at the beginning of this quote.


Yes and no. Even within zoos doing great work there are pockets of not so great-ness and piss poor management/decision making. Vice versa is true as well.

And even the zoos doing great work still generally have elephants who are very social creatures that need more space and more elephants. Some (see Denver zoo) are trying to give elephants more space to "wander", but still don't have enough elephants.

One of the biggest problems facing zoos is an identity crisis. They need to be entertaining (old mission) so they can bring in people to educate them (new mission).  And some do better than others, but it's a constant struggle. There are compromises made and generally a constant struggle between different factions (old school zookeepers vs. new school vs. management). And my understanding (been a couple of years since I looked) is that the research is iffy as to whether or not zoos make any difference in actionable conservation after someone visits them.
 
2014-06-21 02:57:33 PM

udhq: Yawn.  Another PETA nutter over-anthropomorphizing animals in captivity.  Yes, it introduces them to different kinds of stressors.  No, I don't think anyone can definitively say that those stressors are and worse than having to constantly seek food and avoid predators.

And for the record, the zoos that keep animals behind bars in bare concrete enclosures need to go, as do ALL forms of animal performance.


Wanting to end all forms of animal performance makes you a PETA nutjob in my book. Some species in captivity need the mental stimulation and positive reinforcement that they get from performing. And in many places trainers use their routines as an opportunity to give physical care to the animal (toothbrushing, nail trimming, etc).
 
2014-06-21 02:58:16 PM

udhq: No, I don't think anyone can definitively say that those stressors are and worse than having to constantly seek food and avoid predators.


This is where the fail happens. They have evolved over millennia to do just that... seek food and avoid predators. That's what they do. Millions of years have made them for these purposes. Walking around inside a fence is not how they were designed. What are stressors to us humans aren't necessarily what are stressors to them, because how they are in the wild is their natural state, where and how they were meant to be.

The last time I went to a zoo I saw an elephant with her head against the wall, stepping from one foot to the other. She had worn the skin away from the left side of her forehead, and there was a thick callous at the spot she rubbed against the concrete.
Haven't been to a zoo since.

Now if humans stopped farking up the places where these animals are supposed to be, we might have at least the start to a solution.
 
2014-06-21 02:58:23 PM
There's always someone who finds a reason to be offended. Can't have zoo's, sea world, Redskins, large soda's, grocery bags. Give it a rest
 
2014-06-21 02:58:43 PM

cryinoutloud: wax_on: Can't go to zoos. Find them too depressing.

The last time I went to a zoo--the very nice National Zoo in D.C. by the way--I watched a cheetah cruise the outer perimeter of its fence all the way around, for over an hour. Didn't stop, didn't look at anything, just ran the fence. It had a path worn up against the fence and apparently it spent a lot of time just circling the fenceline, over and over.

I don't care for zoos.


Saw the same thing, but it was a bear at the St. Louis Zoo.  It looked like it had gone insane, yet people were still crowding around and taking pictures.  I'll never go to zoo ever again.
 
2014-06-21 02:59:03 PM
I don't care where you go, or what you do, or what words you use - it's wrong and bad and probably dangerous, and you're a terrible person for doing it, and I hope you feel really guilty about it, you monster.
 
2014-06-21 03:01:18 PM

rewind2846: This is where the fail happens. They have evolved over millennia to do just that... seek food and avoid predators. That's what they do.


The same could be said for humans, but that doesn't mean we aren't better off with guns and agriculture.
 
2014-06-21 03:02:40 PM

udhq: Yawn.  Another PETA nutter over-anthropomorphizing animals in captivity.  Yes, it introduces them to different kinds of stressors.  No, I don't think anyone can definitively say that those stressors are and worse than having to constantly seek food and avoid predators.

And for the record, the zoos that keep animals behind bars in bare concrete enclosures need to go, as do ALL forms of animal performance.


I made my dog "sit" and "roll over" for a piece of cheese. I am truly a monster.
 
2014-06-21 03:04:16 PM
Asheboro Zoological Park is one of the right ways to do a zoo. The Pittsburgh zoo is one of the right ways to get depressed.
 
2014-06-21 03:04:44 PM

LeroyBourne: Son of Thunder: Yogimus: Guess you're rightnot much left to do but close up the zoo and shoot all the animals.

Then can we eat them?

My buddy did 2 tours in the Iraq.  One day him and the rest of his unit were in the middle of the desert and they find this zoo.  It's completely abandoned except for the animals.  They're all very hungry so they decide to kill one of the animals and eat it.  They elect to kill a giraffe.  He said it wasn't bad.


I had some made-up stories for my gullible civilian buddies when I came back, too.
 
2014-06-21 03:12:11 PM

trevzie: There's always someone who finds a reason to be offended. Can't have zoo's, sea world, Redskins, large soda's, grocery bags. Give it a rest


People who say things like this tend to be insensitive racists and bigots. Also, they don't know how to use an apostrophe. It does not announce the approach of an "s."
 
2014-06-21 03:13:15 PM

Krieghund: It is true that they are still learning about how to make the best possible captive environment for each species. But a lot of the reason that animals range over large areas is that they need that large an area to find food. That isn't an issue in a zoo.


I don't think that's true for all of them. Many animals need to roam, and a zoo just can't provide it. Some animals that have a perfectly good home territory will still move hundreds of miles, just because. Not only that, it's their instinct to move on, to find other habitats, to do a migration pattern every year, or every six months. They've lost a large part of their reason for living when they're put into captivity.

do human jails make for better-adjusted human beings? After all, most of their needs are being taken care of. Everything is right there, they don't even have to worry about money or a job or anything. They should be well on the way to complete rehabilitation with an easy life like that. And some people, I guess, don't mind prison that much. But it's still a punishment.

Your dog will go nuts if you don't exercise it. You might think its fine, but that dog is crazy and neurotic. Take it for a goddamned walk.
 
2014-06-21 03:15:07 PM

udhq: The same could be said for humans, but that doesn't mean we aren't better off with guns and agriculture.


And those conditions that we create for ourselves are what is natural for us as a species. the problem is when we assume that animals want or need the same things we do.
They don't need buildings or shelter. They don't need electricity. They don't need possessions, to mark time, or to mourn their dead. Every day is like the last. There is no future or past, except with maybe longer-lived animals like elephants. There is only today.

"Better off" doesn't work for them, because where they are and what they are doing in the wild is the best that exists for them, and has been for millions of years. That is where they are better off.
 
2014-06-21 03:15:39 PM

ghare: trevzie: There's always someone who finds a reason to be offended. Can't have zoo's, sea world, Redskins, large soda's, grocery bags. Give it a rest

People who say things like this tend to be insensitive racists and bigots. Also, they don't know how to use an apostrophe. It does not announce the approach of an "s."


You take your ivory tower grammar right back to the zoo you came from!
 
2014-06-21 03:17:33 PM
Just go to Detroit. No cages. Don't feed em.
 
2014-06-21 03:18:03 PM

Bonobo62: I made my dog "sit" and "roll over" for a piece of cheese. I am truly a monster.


Show me an orca that has been selectively bred for domestication over 10,000 years and you might have a point.
 
2014-06-21 03:18:52 PM
Farking slate.  The definition of douche.
 
2014-06-21 03:23:26 PM

udhq: how me an orca that has been selectively bred for domestication over 10,000 years and you might have a point.


Show me an alligator in a zoo that could give two shiats where he is so long as he gets to wallow and is fed.

You seem to be trying to make this an all or nothing proposition. It isn't that simple.
 
2014-06-21 03:24:15 PM

rewind2846: "Better off" doesn't work for them, because where they are and what they are doing in the wild is the best that exists for them, and has been for millions of years. That is where they are better off.


It depends what you mean by "better off".  If you mean a longer life with less injury/disease, a steady supply of food and water, and protection from predators, then no they're not better off in the wild.  But if you mean that it satisfies that anti-scientific biases of people like the author of TFA, then yes, you are correct.
 
2014-06-21 03:26:10 PM

udhq: Yawn.  Another PETA nutter over-anthropomorphizing animals in captivity.  Yes, it introduces them to different kinds of stressors.  No, I don't think anyone can definitively say that those stressors are and worse than having to constantly seek food and avoid predators.

And for the record, the zoos that keep animals behind bars in bare concrete enclosures need to go, as do ALL forms of animal performance.


Oddly, the concept of zoochosis makes me wonder about the effect of tiny city apartments on human mental health. Cities aren't exactly natural habitats, either. Rural life may have its own stressors, but trees and greenery are undeniably comforting in a way that brick and concrete... well, aren't.

What's the flip side of anthropomorphization?

/We're all animals
//Agreed about the crappy zoos
 
2014-06-21 03:28:20 PM

John Dewey: Show me an alligator in a zoo that could give two shiats where he is so long as he gets to wallow and is fed.


That's my point.  An animal generally cares about 3 things:  1, can I eat it? 2, can I fark it? and 3, is it going to kill me?

Nowhere in there is the angsty existentialism that people like to project onto them.
 
2014-06-21 03:29:14 PM
one might argue that people who see live animals in a zoo might develop a more close connection, affection or respect the the animals and then be more apt to support conservation efforts.
 
2014-06-21 03:31:45 PM

trevzie: There's always someone who finds a reason to be offended. Can't have zoo's, sea world, Redskins, large soda's, grocery bags. Give it a rest


I don't need any of those things. Brb
 
2014-06-21 03:32:29 PM

Meanwhile at Seaworld...


elitedaily.com


So long, and thanks for all the fish trainers.
 
2014-06-21 03:32:33 PM
one might argue that people who see live animals in a zoo might develop a more close connection, affection or respect for the animals, and then be more apt to support conservation efforts.

ftfm
 
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