Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   Slate: Here's how to improve education - make it harder to become a teacher. First of all, students entering teacher-education programs MUST be slightly above average, and there needs to be more bureaucratic hoop-jumping for credentials   (slate.com) divider line 99
    More: Fail, learning standards, physical education, charter schools, Education Week  
•       •       •

2073 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jun 2014 at 11:59 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



99 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-06-18 10:07:28 AM  
That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.
 
2014-06-18 12:02:01 PM  

NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.


Or class sizes dwindle to outright destructive levels.
 
2014-06-18 12:03:12 PM  

NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.


Aaaaaannnnddd....done.
 
2014-06-18 12:03:37 PM  

NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.


Speaking from a public education standpoint, the pay is insanely superior for the crap education offered.
 
2014-06-18 12:03:40 PM  
I had some borderline retarded during my stint in public schools and now watching my kid's teachers. I think raising the bar is certainly reasonable considering that we trust them with our children.

Naturally better people cost more. Seems like a good investment.
 
2014-06-18 12:05:32 PM  
How about you pay them more.
 
2014-06-18 12:06:14 PM  
"Slightly above average?" Pfft. "Education" majors dominate the bottom decile of college graduates. It's the one professional degree you can "earn" with an absolute minimum of math and science. One of my girlfriends described the education program she was in as "the same three-hour class, eleven times."
 
2014-06-18 12:06:25 PM  
People who argue that teachers should be paid more to improve education are either saying we need better teachers than we currently have (current teachers suck), or are accusing current teachers of not giving 100% because they aren't being paid enough (current teachers suck).
 
2014-06-18 12:06:38 PM  

Best Princess Celestia: Speaking from a public education standpoint, the pay is insanely superior for the crap education offered I have no idea what I'm talking about.


I had all 3 of my best teachers in high school resign in the middle of the year for better paying private sector jobs, and one of those was a farking jazz musician.
 
2014-06-18 12:06:45 PM  
We try paying more for better talent. I've heard money is a good motivator.
 
2014-06-18 12:06:47 PM  
We're the most anti-intellectual developed country, Mom and Dad don't read. So, teachers suck.
 
2014-06-18 12:07:30 PM  
I'd like to throw in a rant about TANSTAFL and The Tragedy of The Commons, but I'd be shooting above your state sponsored level of economic understanding from the class they called "social studies".
 
2014-06-18 12:07:38 PM  
High school teachers need to have at least a baccalaureate degree in their field.

They also ideally need to know how to teach and have a passion for it. There are far too many people who are teaching, especially in colleges, who have no business teaching students, and they treat students accordingly.
 
2014-06-18 12:08:09 PM  

Best Princess Celestia: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Speaking from a public education standpoint, the pay is insanely superior for the crap education offered.


Well, no. If your school district has a low % of free lunch recipients, you get the best education in the world. Odd innit?
 
2014-06-18 12:08:19 PM  
It's already become harder.

1) One teacher I knew, got dropped like a hot potato when the school discovered that someone else would be willing to be a coach and a gym teacher at the exact same salary she was making.  In essence allowing them to have two job positions filled for the price of one.

2) The wonderful new regulations are causing teachers to pay out of pocket in order to test each time they leave a job before they can hire on at a new one.  A few states may be exceptions.

I'm glad I never chose to mold schoolchildren into my ADHD Ooh shiney is that a butterfly, I need tea.. what was I saying?
 
2014-06-18 12:09:23 PM  

NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.


Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.
 
2014-06-18 12:10:13 PM  
Maybe if education paid more, more qualified people would want to do it, and then schools could be pickier about who they hire.

But that would cost money!
 
2014-06-18 12:10:49 PM  
I make six-figures and I web surf all day.  You think I'm going to accept $35k to babysit your stupid brats all day, field your inane calls about why your lazy kid didn't get an A, and put up with a bloated bureaucracy helmed by people who's only real talent is winning a seat from an uninformed electorate?
 
2014-06-18 12:12:22 PM  

kkinnison: How about you pay them more.


Why not both?
 
2014-06-18 12:13:04 PM  

Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.


You sound poor.
 
2014-06-18 12:14:01 PM  

southernmanblog: "Slightly above average?" Pfft. "Education" majors dominate the bottom decile of college graduates. It's the one professional degree you can "earn" with an absolute minimum of math and science. One of my girlfriends described the education program she was in as "the same three-hour class, eleven times."


Csb:

My wife's roommate in college came in from partying all night on a Friday complaining and stressed out that she had to make a swimming pool out of construction paper for her early childhood education class by Monday. I offered to get a small pump and tubing from the hardware store and suggested that a thick latex paint would keep the water in for a few hours.

She looked at me like I was an idiot and said, "It doesn't have to hold water!"

I shut up and went back to my genetics book.
 
2014-06-18 12:14:33 PM  

kkinnison: How about you pay them more.


How people parse that:

Teacher: "Yay! I will be paid what I'm worth!"
Non-teacher: "How soon after we start attracting capable people to the profession can we start getting rid of the stooges we have now?"
 
GBB
2014-06-18 12:14:36 PM  

Back Alley Proctologist: People who argue that teachers should be paid more to improve education are either saying we need better teachers than we currently have (current teachers suck), or are accusing current teachers of not giving 100% because they aren't being paid enough (current teachers suck).


If you pay more, you attract a better group of candidates.
Paying more would require paying the ones we currently have more with very little increase in results because of tenure.
Paying them more would increase retention rates and fewer openings become available.
Fewer openings mean that attracting better teachers is moot because you would only be hiring very few of them.

Catch 22
 
2014-06-18 12:15:02 PM  
Huh. I thought that the answer was "throw money at the problem and then stuff your fingers in your ears". If you really want to fix education you should

1. eliminate the unnecessary bureaucracy

2. Incentivize teachers who do a good job (ie. raises, benefits and such)

3. Make it easy to fire really bad teachers

4. Remove problem children, who don't want to be educated, from the classroom.

5. Require an entrance exam for secondary education; people who can't cut it have the option of attending vocational/crafts schools
 
2014-06-18 12:16:13 PM  

Back Alley Proctologist: People who argue that teachers should be paid more to improve education are either saying we need better teachers than we currently have (current teachers suck), or are accusing current teachers of not giving 100% because they aren't being paid enough (current teachers suck).


The biggest problem is who enters teaching today. My wife works in education, so has a lot of teacher friends. Many of my friends are married to teachers. Almost every single teacher I know went into it because it was a relatively easy degree to get, what school you went to didn't matter, so you could pick your school based off other factors, and its a relatively easy job to get once you get out of school, has solid benefits, and is damned near impossible to get fired from.

But most importantly, they went into teaching because they knew they could take a few years or more off once they got married and started having kids, and then maybe go back to teaching after that.

And that is what needs to change. It should be damned hard to become a teacher. I'm all for paying them a ton more than they get today,but it also needs to come with some accountability. The unions stand against that at every turn.
 
2014-06-18 12:17:45 PM  

ikanreed: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Or class sizes dwindle to outright destructive levels.


And here we have another problem.  Lets say I'm the Los Angeles school district.  I have to educate approximately 700,000 students in a given year, of different ages and grade levels.  Even with an average elementary school class size of 35 kids or so, that still amounts to 45,000 teachers.  Teachers, not admin staff.   So lets assume better pay and respect for better qualified candidates, let's also assume that the money for all this comes from some magical money fairy because no one in California will ever vote to raise property taxes.  I still need to eventually find a rather large army of people with an advanced degree that is not a PhD in Communications from the University of Phoenix.  That's just a lot of manpower to scratch up.  Oh, and a good minority of these people are going to have to work in schools that are in dangerous neighborhoods.

Add in the amazingly hostile public sector union environment here in California just to make it more interesting.
 
2014-06-18 12:19:44 PM  
Make it harder to become a student.

While the greatest teachers can possibly make a great student out of a child that comes from a background that doesn't value education and discipline, the amount of one on one time required makes it impractical for every teacher to become a surrogate parent for all such children. The amount of money wasted in education on unteachable children is staggering.
 
2014-06-18 12:19:53 PM  

Rapmaster2000: I make six-figures and I web surf all day.  You think I'm going to accept $35k to babysit your stupid brats all day, field your inane calls about why your lazy kid didn't get an A, and put up with a bloated bureaucracy helmed by people who's only real talent is winning a seat from an uninformed electorate?


My goal is to get a teaching certificate in a few years.  I will have banked enough money from my professional job that I won't even care what they pay me.  I won't have to give a crap about the snowflakes, performance appraisals, bureaucratic politics, or anything else.  I'll just get to teach kids who want to learn and attempt to really help the ones who need it.

Plus it's a chance to expand my dating pool apparently
 
2014-06-18 12:20:09 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.

You sound poor.


Nope, do very well. I am just smarter than Fark, who think teachers are poor.
 
2014-06-18 12:21:02 PM  
TEST & QUANTIFY CONSTANTLY
PUNISH, FIRE, REMOVE BENEFITS
DENIGRATE AT EVERY TURN

The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
2014-06-18 12:21:08 PM  

NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.


Around here, a teacher fresh out of his/her masters program starts at $38K/year. That's for eight months of work, with four hours of classroom time and two hours of "teacher stuff" time. So 8 months, four weeks per month, five days per week, six hours per day comes to 960 hours of work per year. And that comes out to $39.58 per hour. Not a bad starting salary.

When I was in college, the kids studying to be teachers all got take-home, usually multiple choice exams. When they got their graded exams back, they got the answer key. Those of us studying the sciences would ask them to give us a copy of the exams, which we would take cold and then grade against the key. The science majors were carrying a GPA of 3.8 never having read the text books or attended a lecture in the Education Department. Their education was just that bad. It is even worse today.

It's past time to hold teachers to much higher standards of education and performance. And, yeah, pay them what they are worth.

Another thing to get rid of is corporate sponsorship of public education. Many of the schools around here have electronic billboards on their signs out front. These display ads for the corporations that give them money. They also get to dictate curricula - curricula that isn't necessarily in the best interest of the students, but serves their future need for pliable drones.
 
2014-06-18 12:21:39 PM  
I think we should let anyone be a teacher, pay them shiat, and lay them off in record numbers. If that doesn't make our childrens learning, I don't know what is.
 
2014-06-18 12:24:04 PM  

GBB: Back Alley Proctologist: People who argue that teachers should be paid more to improve education are either saying we need better teachers than we currently have (current teachers suck), or are accusing current teachers of not giving 100% because they aren't being paid enough (current teachers suck).

If you pay more, you attract a better group of candidates.
Paying more would require paying the ones we currently have more with very little increase in results because of tenure.
Paying them more would increase retention rates and fewer openings become available.
Fewer openings mean that attracting better teachers is moot because you would only be hiring very few of them.

Catch 22


Good point. It could take decades, but it needs to be done. I roll my eyes when, all in one breath, someone deifies teachers then admits most of them suck.
 
2014-06-18 12:24:32 PM  
would have gone for teaching as a career if teachers were classified as journey(men) under a subject guild, and spent 3-4 years as paid apprentices to great experienced teachers.  Across the street they are working on a 20 million dollar construction project to add 14 new classrooms to a school... if only they spent a quarter of that budget on art and music programs, and teachers instead of wifi-ready microwaveable classrooms

/and if they shot all the textbook sales people and school administration boards full of sodium pentothal at every meeting
 
2014-06-18 12:25:05 PM  
When I switched to a teaching major, I was extremely disillusioned by the general lack of intelligence shown by nearly every other student in the program. In my admittedly limited scope, it appears that idiots flock to the profession. Perhaps this isn't such a bad idea.
 
2014-06-18 12:25:55 PM  
Judging by the effectiveness of my physics, and chem lab TA's (who were presumed to be some of the best grad students of their chosen field), having the highest GPA may not be the best indicator for  an effective teacher.
 
2014-06-18 12:26:56 PM  

Rapmaster2000: I make six-figures and I web surf all day.  You think I'm going to accept $35k to babysit your stupid brats all day, field your inane calls about why your lazy kid didn't get an A, and put up with a bloated bureaucracy helmed by people who's only real talent is winning a seat from an uninformed electorate?


I think this is closer to the truth than anything.  Putting aside pay for a moment, it's not hard to see that a combination of horrific bureaucracy, short-sighted and restrictive policy, and adversarial parenting are very effective at keeping potentially great teachers away from education altogether and limiting the effectiveness of those who are still dedicated to doing so.  I suspect plenty of top-notch people occassionally entertain the thought of becoming an educator, and then quickly come to their senses when the other crap starts getting factored in.
 
2014-06-18 12:27:20 PM  
students entering teacher-education programs MUST be slightly above average

Recruit only from Lake Woebegone?
 
2014-06-18 12:27:21 PM  

Wendy's Chili: I think we should let anyone be a teacher, pay them shiat, and lay them off in record numbers. If that doesn't make our childrens learning, I don't know what is.


We already do two out of three.  Third one is the one we need to try.
 
2014-06-18 12:27:52 PM  

Thunderpipes: Rapmaster2000: Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.

You sound poor.

Nope, do very well. I am just smarter than Fark, who think teachers are poor.


I bet you do as well as all the state workers Spittle County.
 
2014-06-18 12:29:03 PM  

Nuclear Monk: Rapmaster2000: I make six-figures and I web surf all day.  You think I'm going to accept $35k to babysit your stupid brats all day, field your inane calls about why your lazy kid didn't get an A, and put up with a bloated bureaucracy helmed by people who's only real talent is winning a seat from an uninformed electorate?

I think this is closer to the truth than anything.  Putting aside pay for a moment, it's not hard to see that a combination of horrific bureaucracy, short-sighted and restrictive policy, and adversarial parenting are very effective at keeping potentially great teachers away from education altogether and limiting the effectiveness of those who are still dedicated to doing so.  I suspect plenty of top-notch people occassionally entertain the thought of becoming an educator, and then quickly come to their senses when the other crap starts getting factored in.


My last friend to teach quit that job and opened a coffee shop.  She's much happier now.
 
2014-06-18 12:29:22 PM  

Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.


That is the most uninformed BS I have read in years.
 
2014-06-18 12:30:24 PM  

Don_cos: Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.

That is the most uninformed BS I have read in years.


And completely true, and you know it.

Face it, liberals are just wrong, and dumb. Nothing new here.
 
Ehh
2014-06-18 12:31:15 PM  
Teachers already have to jump through a bunch of hoops. The truth is that a large number of people hate teachers.
 
2014-06-18 12:31:23 PM  

Back Alley Proctologist: People who argue that teachers should be paid more to improve education are either saying we need better teachers than we currently have (current teachers suck), or are accusing current teachers of not giving 100% because they aren't being paid enough (current teachers suck).


In NC, it's not that teachers are leaving the profession, it's that they're leaving the state. They get better paying jobs in Virginia or elsewhere because they can't live on $30,000 a year. Teachers in public school get better paying jobs in charter schools, too.

Sure, current teachers suck. But let's try this one - teachers have to do a lot of shiat that isn't teaching. Most schools are understaffed and teachers are overworked. Paying them salary really doesn't seem fair when they're working long after the kids go home, and after they go home, too. Do we need to pay a teacher to nanny the kids during lunch? Any moron could do that. Same with sports team coaches. Still we see them protesting at the capitol and organizing at school board meetings so they could maybe get a cost of living raise. And why are we paying teachers to buy supplies for their students out of their own pocket? 

Plus administrators are getting paid more than they're worth to fail to deliver results. Look at this chart where a superintendent is getting paid $107,000 to preside over a district of 570 kids. That's smaller than my high school's graduating class. Is this position even necessary?
http://www.wral.com/superintendent-contracts/12781439/ 
http://www.wral.com/nc-superintendents-contracts-packed-with-perks/1 27 85279/ 

Look at this guy who got fired because of contract negotiations that didn't involve school board approval, and the golden parachute he got.
http://www.wral.com/granville-county-superintendent-resigns-will-be- pa id-318-000/13722335/ 

A lot of the problems here are just budgeting. Why are vice principals more valuable than teachers? Why do secretaries earn the same?
 
2014-06-18 12:31:36 PM  

Thunderpipes: Don_cos: Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.

That is the most uninformed BS I have read in years.

And completely true, and you know it.

Face it, liberals are just wrong, and dumb. Nothing new here.


Checkmate, libs.  Thunderpipes wins again!
 
2014-06-18 12:31:50 PM  

iheartscotch: Huh. I thought that the answer was "throw money at the problem and then stuff your fingers in your ears". If you really want to fix education you should

1. eliminate the unnecessary bureaucracy

2. Incentivize teachers who do a good job (ie. raises, benefits and such)

3. Make it easy to fire really bad teachers

4. Remove problem children, who don't want to be educated, from the classroom.

5. Require an entrance exam for secondary education; people who can't cut it have the option of attending vocational/crafts schools


1. A good deal of the bureaucracy comes from two places, and I don't know how you get rid of it. In many places the school system is the minor league for politics, so naturally you end up with a good deal of bureaucratic overhead. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering the money involved and the stakes it plays. Your school system goes beyond how well it educates your kids at a local level. It affects taxes, property values, crime, and a host of other things. So it isn't so much something you can get rid of (well you could pair it down by getting rid of the union), but making it work right.

2. The unions will, and do, stand in the way of this at every turn. In most places the union is dominated by people who have been in the system for a long time, and their chief concern is maximizing their pay and pension. While I agree that in some cases it is hard to come up with metrics to objectively judge a teacher on performance, it isn't impossible. These are supposed to be smart people teaching, i'm sure we can find a way. Hard is not an excuse.

3. This really has to do with reform of the tenure system. While I certainly agree an educator with a proven record deserves some additional protections so they aren't just teaching by the book, and have some leeway to do what they know is effective, that protection shouldn't come automatically after just a few years of simply not doing anything criminal, as it works in most places now. Likewise not all teachers should be eligible for tenure. Again though, you are fighting the union on this at every turn.

4. This is actually interesting, a big problem today, and is where a TON of money goes for with schools. The short of it is, its really easy to get a kid classified these days where you can pull them out of the general population and get them more tailored education. In some cases this is good, and needed, but frequently it is used as a tool for teachers to get kids that are a little bit of a problem out of their hair, so they don't have to deal with it. From the teachers end, its a mix as to if the teacher simply doesn't want to deal with it, or the way the system is set up does not allow them to correctly deal with it. Likewise you have parents who fight to get their kids in special education, because it reduces the role\blame that falls on themselves for raising a farkup.

5. There already are plenty of requirements for secondary education entrance. The bigger issue is we keep this mentality that traditional college is the path for everyone, even when we know it isn't the case. We also keep telling them that until, maybe junior or senior year when they start getting rejections to the schools they want to go to, when it was apparent years earlier that the kid wasn't college material. We need to start sending kids down tracks geared towards things they will actually succeed at far earlier. Sure, you allow paths to change tracks, because not everyone is going to be placed on the right one early on, but you could probably spend a few hours in a typical 5th grade classroom, and with some reasonable accuracy, pick out the kids that are going to succeed in college and those that will fail.
 
2014-06-18 12:32:08 PM  

Thunderpipes: Rapmaster2000: Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.

You sound poor.

Nope, do very well. I am just smarter than Fark, who think teachers are poor.


You're also a farking moron. When my mother retired with a Master's Degree and 28 years experience, she made around 45-48 k a year and gets to keep 2/3's of that as her pension pay.  Her benefits are good, I suppose, but yeah, take you self righteous inaccurate horseshiat elsewhere.
 
2014-06-18 12:32:24 PM  

JackieRabbit: Around here, a teacher fresh out of his/her masters program starts at $38K/year. That's for eight months of work, with four hours of classroom time and two hours of "teacher stuff" time. So 8 months, four weeks per month, five days per week, six hours per day comes to 960 hours of work per year. And that comes out to $39.58 per hour. Not a bad starting salary.


Where is "around here"? Around here, teachers are lucky to get 30 minutes for lunch; two hours of "teacher stuff" time is a pipe dream.
 
2014-06-18 12:33:24 PM  

Thunderpipes: Don_cos: Thunderpipes: NuttierThanEver: That will only work if compensation and respect for the job rises commensurately with these demands.

Teachers are by far one of the fastest and most consistent jobs to become a millionaire in.

Teach for 30 years, retire for 30 while making a full salary, always the best benefits, complete job security, summers off, all for a little lower starting salary, which quickly jumps anyway.

Ya, they have it so tough.

That is the most uninformed BS I have read in years.

And completely true, and you know it.

Face it, liberals are just wrong, and dumb. Nothing new here.


LOL
 
Displayed 50 of 99 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report