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(Yahoo)   Till Death Do Us Part' used to have something to do with marriage and a partner, these days in America it now has to do with you and your job   (finance.yahoo.com) divider line 144
    More: Sad, pension plans, fixed costs  
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9021 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jun 2014 at 2:43 AM (26 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-18 10:56:03 AM  

some_beer_drinker: [radicalunjobbing.files.wordpress.com image 452x433]
how many farking times do i have to post this. universal basic income. it's what's right. at least for white people. those brown guys are on their own...


Ricky Fuller is an idiot.  Just because someone can make a breakthrough doesn't mean they want everyone else to sponge off them.  You don't have to justify your right to exist.  But if you want something from another person, you better have something of value to trade them for it.  To get something to trade you're probably going to have to do some work.
 
2014-06-18 10:56:57 AM  

evilmrsock: I live in a world where people who vote yes to every local civic improvement while making $60k+ biatch about "the man" "stealing" fraom their thousand dollar freelance jobs, and how issuing a 1099 is "uncalled for". Your proposal is so fiscally naive that I would run it verbatim in a campaign against you if we were competing for public office.


I'm sorry for your lack of faith in your fellow citizens.  In your world, do people refuse to pay the gas bill?  Do they refuse to pay rent because the landlord is too damned rich anyway?

Where I live, some farmers have produce stands at the end of their driveway.  They put out their produce, put up a  price list, set out a cash box, and then go back to work.  There are a few people that rip them off.  Matter of fact, we all know who they are.  They're the kind of people that if you give them a dozen ears of sweet corn, they'll complain to the neighbors that you didn't give them any butter to put on it.  But by and large, the farmers are compensated for their produce.  Some folks even leave more than they owe.  But if the farmer is giving value for the money, he'll come out all right at the end.  Maybe the government should pay attention to that previous sentence.

Of course, if you live in a society where people feel themselves entitled, regardless of their contribution or productivity; if you live in a society where people are taught to be jealous of the wealth of others because, after all, that bastard didn't earn that - it was given to him or he won life's lottery or he got that on the backs of [insert oppressed minority here]; if you live in a society where people have been told everybody else is gaming the system so they should also - just to get a little of their own back; if you live in a society where the elected officials hold themselves above the law and regularly break the law and/or encourage or allow others to break the law with impunity; then I can see that taxpayers would assert the "right" to lie, cheat and steal on their taxes.  And if you think that withholding taxes are solving that problem, you are the one who is either hopelessly naive or willfully obtuse.
 
2014-06-18 10:59:46 AM  
"We have been married 46 years and my wife has been primarily a stay-at-home mom" of six children.

Six crotch fruit on a single income and they wonder why they don't have money to retire on?  This guy wont be able to stop working till 3 years after he dies.
 
2014-06-18 11:07:52 AM  

JackieRabbit: Here is the wake up call for those who think they will work well beyond retirement age: think again. We will not be allowed to. We will be pushed out for younger workers, who will require less money and fewer benefits. Right now, if you are over 50 and lose your job, the probability of finding another one that has a salary that matches your previous one is almost zero. If you are over 55, your chance of getting any new job is rather low. Older workers are forced out of organizations all the time and this is done without any worry of being in violation of age discrimination laws.

And, you know what? We should accept this. 45 +/- years is plenty long enough to be in the labor market. With technology eliminating more and more jobs, there will be fewer available as time passes. Younger workers, who have families to support, need those jobs more than an older worker, who wants to work five more years so that he can add another $150/mo to his annuity payment.


How old are you?  Seriously.
 
2014-06-18 11:08:40 AM  

sufferpuppet: "We have been married 46 years and my wife has been primarily a stay-at-home mom" of six children.

Six crotch fruit on a single income and they wonder why they don't have money to retire on?  This guy wont be able to stop working till 3 years after he dies.


Everyone seems to think (due to social or religious pressure) that you must go to college, you must procreate, etc...the fact is, it's nearly impossible to do everything well. Unless you make a shiatload of money, you're not going to be able to pay off your own student loan, afford children on a single income or put them through college. If you're a woman and you spend your 20's and 30's as a stay at home mom, good luck breaking into the professional workforce at 40. You have no work experience.

Decide what you want and be good at it. I chose career and have no children, because I didn't have the time or money to do it well. When you try to have everything, you could end up with nothing.
 
2014-06-18 11:10:49 AM  

sufferpuppet: "We have been married 46 years and my wife has been primarily a stay-at-home mom" of six children.

Six crotch fruit on a single income and they wonder why they don't have money to retire on?  This guy wont be able to stop working till 3 years after he dies.


You don't seem to understand that this was once the normal situation. Few women of that generation worked unless they had no other choice. Men used to be paid more (adjusted for inflation) then than they are now, because it was excerpted that they had families to support. Today, they make less than they did in 1965 dollars because the new expectation is that women will work and that most households will be dual-income. Therefor an individual employee can be paid less.

Consider, too, that older workers (over about 50) usually started their careers with pension plans. Gradually, most of these plans were converted to 401(k) plans since they get employers off the hook. These plans have been devastated in the last four recessions. Chances are that in 2007, this guy was sitting pretty for retirement. But not anymore.

I, too, worry if my wife will have enough money after I die. It's what a husband does.
 
2014-06-18 11:11:14 AM  

chasd00: Your tax refund is your money paid back to you at zero interest.


No shiat, Einstein.  Most of us just look at as a short-term savings account.  We're not banks, we don't expect to make a profit on it.
Even if I took all the money that would go to taxes, and put it into my savings account for that 12 months or less instead, I'd make what, $10 on it?
And if I took it and put it into a higher yield market account, I'd then owe capitol gains tax on the profit when I took it out again to pay the income tax.
So for most of us it's just fine to loan it to the feds for a few months, knowing we'll get it back.
 
kab
2014-06-18 11:13:18 AM  
Folks are really surprised at this?

Over the past several decades, you've gotten exactly the economic system that you asked for.  Don't biatch about the side effects.
 
2014-06-18 11:15:28 AM  

Witness99: Decide what you want and be good at it. I chose career and have no children, because I didn't have the time or money to do it well. When you try to have everything, you could end up with nothing.


If everyone waited until they thought they had both the time and the money to have children, humanity would end in 2 generations.
 
2014-06-18 11:22:33 AM  

Ambivalence: Maturin: I figure I'll die in the saddle. Which is okay because I like my job and there is a chronic shortage of pediatricians. That and frankly, I don't ever see how I will be able to afford not to work.

How would a pediatrician not be able to afford to retire?


Well, for starters physicians get a later start at earning than most other professions, and we end up with more debt. I have many classmates who were out earning a living and gaining seniority in their jobs while I was still getting an education. Also, while physicians can earn a lot, pediatricians are at the bottom of the pile. We don't have many procedures which are well paying, and usually have a large number of medicare patients. I have chosen to practice in underserved communities, so for several years of my career I have been paid as well as an experienced teacher. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I do a lot better than many people who work harder than I do.

Probably the biggest difficulty people have in preparing for retirement is to live below your means (which we have not done well). You get used to a certain type of house, a better brand of coffee, buying the books you want, driving a decent car, and it is hard to change those habits. It makes it difficult to plan for retirement without having a few 'extras.' That and what seemed like a luxury once becomes a necessity. Take the cellphone. My children, all in their 20's, can not imagine living without one. Personally, I could do that, but don't take away my internet.

As an added difficulty, as mentioned in TFA, I can't expect to kick off at 75. My father is 91, and while he won't buy an unripe banana, he still seems to be hanging on. If I were to retire at 65, living 25 years on retirement, accumulated assets, and social security looks very precarious.

So bottom line, right now I have four people and a dog who depend on me to bring home the bacon, and likely will need some level of support for some time. I am obscenely close to 60 but feel pretty good, and only some minor health problems that won't likely explode on me for a couple of decades. Work is still fun, and I think I would get bored without someplace to go every morning.
 
2014-06-18 11:30:06 AM  

fusillade762: 401(k)s are a sham


I think the actual title of the article should be "People are Idiots."

401ks work if you put money in them.

If you don't, well, duh.
 
2014-06-18 11:37:11 AM  

MelGoesOnTour: JackieRabbit: Here is the wake up call for those who think they will work well beyond retirement age: think again. We will not be allowed to. We will be pushed out for younger workers, who will require less money and fewer benefits. Right now, if you are over 50 and lose your job, the probability of finding another one that has a salary that matches your previous one is almost zero. If you are over 55, your chance of getting any new job is rather low. Older workers are forced out of organizations all the time and this is done without any worry of being in violation of age discrimination laws.

And, you know what? We should accept this. 45 +/- years is plenty long enough to be in the labor market. With technology eliminating more and more jobs, there will be fewer available as time passes. Younger workers, who have families to support, need those jobs more than an older worker, who wants to work five more years so that he can add another $150/mo to his annuity payment.

How old are you?  Seriously.


Why would that matter? Those are valid points for the most part. Especially in the tech where energy and adaptability are two of the majors in the skill set. Retirement age was set when most people wouldn't live past 65. Thinking you'll work until 65 and then have enough money to live another 2 decades is a wonderful dream. But for most it will remain a dream. But then again by 65 you should have your kids moved out and your house payed for so your month to month living expensive should be lower so getting a lower paying job shouldn't be that bad. A blow to the ego but suck it up and GBTW. This will basically put you into the entry level job market. Sucks for the kids looking for their first jobs but it won't mess with the 20 somethings looking to start making future tax payers.
Most of these problems including the Social Security problems will be fixed once we get over the baby boom.
 
2014-06-18 11:42:25 AM  

Petit_Merdeux: 401ks work if you put money in them.


Wow!  there's a concept I bet nobody has ever thought of, he said sarcastically!

You are, of course, correct.  And if  you put a lot of money in a 401k, you can get even more lots or money out.  Compound interest is wonderful when it's working in your favor and not on a credit card balance against you.

The major downside of 401k investments is inflation.  If most of your 401k or IRA is in cash, be very careful.  I saw too many elderly lose their retirement while the bank balance actually went up in the 60s and 70s when we had double digit inflation.

So far, no rampant inflation is around.  But I still feel better having equity and real assets than cash.
 
2014-06-18 11:42:51 AM  

Foxxinnia: Why everyone doesn't just commit suicide on their 66th birthday is just beyond me at this point.


No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always biatchy. No Fun - for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your old age. Relax - This won't hurt.
 
2014-06-18 11:53:05 AM  

Foxxinnia: Why everyone doesn't just commit suicide on their 66th birthday is just beyond me at this point.


You first.
 
2014-06-18 11:56:19 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: MelGoesOnTour: JackieRabbit: Here is the wake up call for those who think they will work well beyond retirement age: think again. We will not be allowed to. We will be pushed out for younger workers, who will require less money and fewer benefits. Right now, if you are over 50 and lose your job, the probability of finding another one that has a salary that matches your previous one is almost zero. If you are over 55, your chance of getting any new job is rather low. Older workers are forced out of organizations all the time and this is done without any worry of being in violation of age discrimination laws.

And, you know what? We should accept this. 45 +/- years is plenty long enough to be in the labor market. With technology eliminating more and more jobs, there will be fewer available as time passes. Younger workers, who have families to support, need those jobs more than an older worker, who wants to work five more years so that he can add another $150/mo to his annuity payment.

How old are you?  Seriously.

Why would that matter? Those are valid points for the most part. Especially in the tech where energy and adaptability are two of the majors in the skill set. Retirement age was set when most people wouldn't live past 65. Thinking you'll work until 65 and then have enough money to live another 2 decades is a wonderful dream. But for most it will remain a dream. But then again by 65 you should have your kids moved out and your house payed for so your month to month living expensive should be lower so getting a lower paying job shouldn't be that bad. A blow to the ego but suck it up and GBTW. This will basically put you into the entry level job market. Sucks for the kids looking for their first jobs but it won't mess with the 20 somethings looking to start making future tax payers.
Most of these problems including the Social Security problems will be fixed once we get over the baby boom.


What happens when 15,000,000 illegal immigrants suddenly become legal and enter the regular work force? Starting taking entry level jobs? Start signing up for subsidies? Overnight baby boom.
 
2014-06-18 12:00:51 PM  

some_beer_drinker: [radicalunjobbing.files.wordpress.com image 452x433]
how many farking times do i have to post this. universal basic income. it's what's right. at least for white people. those brown guys are on their own...


LOL, I'm supposed to invent some new technology and donate it to the public coffer?  That is good stuff.
 
2014-06-18 12:00:58 PM  
GodComplex: ...
...
Besides, having too many people in the trades diminishes the value of the trade. If everyone is a plumber, no one needs a plumber. A functioning economy needs a diversity of skills and mindsets or we don't have an economy. Also avoids group think, cause that's never a good thing.

CSB:
I dated a woman who did a bunch of music-related jobs simultaneously.  One of those jobs was teaching violin and viola, and she was paid about $40/hour (net).  One of her other jobs was being in a folk/rock/strange band, and I took guitar lessons from the lead guitarist.  He charged me $10 per hour, because this was Los Angeles, and the LA area has many, many great guitar players, whereas violin teachers are less numerous and can command a higher paycheck.  (They also have a different, wealthier customer base).
 
2014-06-18 12:02:46 PM  
Most of the time I just pray for a quick death so I wont be a burdon and rack up hospital bills.

I was doing pretty well until 05-06, everything bad that could happen to me did and I was lucky I was good at saving money because I was nearly wiped out. Whenever things start to go well and I start to see some light at the end of the tunnel it turns out to be a train. In July I will probably get a weekend job to help with the bills and I told the roomate if she dosent have a job by then she has to go. I'm glad she has been over 90 days sober and has cleaned up the house but I need her paying rent and out working or at least get a sugar daddy.
 
2014-06-18 12:35:13 PM  

some_beer_drinker: [radicalunjobbing.files.wordpress.com image 452x433]
how many farking times do i have to post this. universal basic income. it's what's right. at least for white people. those brown guys are on their own...


img.fark.net

Maybe that's one place where Roddenberry picked up his ideas. I've been thinking that we're moving toward a Star Trek economy.

Some people in the near future won't work. They won't have to work. Through automation and efficiency the surpluses will be so great that we'll be able to provide a basic living for everyone without an undue burden on those who choose to work.

We'll achieve it without replicators or fission. I don't think money will disappear in the foreseeable future, but the way we think about it is going to change as surpluses are used to provide a reasonable standard of living to everyone. We already make enough food to feed the world, it's only a matter of getting it to those in need.

Economies will have to change. Governments will have to adapt. People are going to freak out about different "-isms" that are destroying their way of life or their beliefs. In a way the transition will.

The thing is, if this is the future coming down the pike then all the hand-wringing and outrage will be for naught. Grizzled old men can sit on their porches and complain about people not getting jobs and children will skip by and laugh at them.
 
2014-06-18 12:51:14 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: Some people in the near future won't work. They won't have to work. Through automation and efficiency the surpluses will be so great that we'll be able to provide a basic living for everyone without an undue burden on those who choose to work.


There are billionaires and millionaires out there now who can give away half their money and still not feel it (no undue burden there) and yet they will fight to keep every unnecessary, underutilized dollar that they have.

I doubt that will ever change.


And its all well and good for Picard. His family has a damn vineyard in France. But there aren't enough caribbean islands and tuscan villas to go around. There is still going to be someone on earth living in a studio apartment somewhere, even if its a nice one, even if they do choose to work.
 
2014-06-18 12:53:03 PM  
My hope/plan for the future is to have my mortgage paid off 10 years before I reach retirement age. Not having to pay rent when I retire is $8-10k more per year I get to keep, and that is after counting what I have to pay for property tax.

Between that and putting in the max allowed contributions to my IRA, I hope be well off enough to enjoy my retirement, without being forced to work a menial job.

/Am a saver / frugal
//Still manage to have nice things, go on trips, etc.
 
2014-06-18 12:53:23 PM  

Petit_Merdeux: fusillade762: 401(k)s are a sham

I think the actual title of the article should be "People are Idiots."

401ks work if you put money in them.

If you don't, well, duh.


There are lots of problems with 401ks that have nothing to do with how much money you put into them:

1. What you can invest in is limited to what your company plan offers. A lot of company plans simply suck. And then there can be all kinds of restrictions on how often you're allowed to make changes, fees that are out of your control, etc.
2. There's no guaranteed rate of return. You could do a very good job investing the money in your plan only to have the market crash when you retire.
3. Plans aren't worth as much as they're valued because you're taxed on distributions and until you get close to retirement, there's no way know what you're tax rate will be, and thus, all you can do is plan for the worse.
 
2014-06-18 12:54:05 PM  

chasd00: Mr Right is right.

It bothers me that my friends celebrate their refund like it's some sort of gift or surprise. When my wife and I were in the financial position of getting a refund we setup our taxes so that it was as close to zero as possible and actually preferred to owe a few hundred. Your tax refund is your money paid back to you at zero interest. Just let that sink in for a moment, if it doesn't then go to your bank and ask for a loan without interest and consider their response.


That interest free loan point would be a much more compelling arguement if savings accounts had something greater than a 0.25% interest rate.  That $500 refund could have been $501.25 had I not loaned it to the government.

Don't get me wrong, I play the whole "it's better to owe" game too, but it doesn't take much to really fark it up.  My wife and I did much better than expected this year, which put us owing enough to get penalized.

I would have honestly preferred forgoing the extra $1.25 to get a $500 "bonus" instead of having to shift money around to pay a tax bill and penalties.
 
2014-06-18 01:13:58 PM  

thornhill: There are lots of problems with 401ks that have nothing to do with how much money you put into them:


Yes, but the article is claiming that 401ks are a scam based on people not contributing to them.
 
2014-06-18 01:23:55 PM  

Petit_Merdeux: thornhill: There are lots of problems with 401ks that have nothing to do with how much money you put into them:

Yes, but the article is claiming that 401ks are a scam based on people not contributing to them.


Huh? The article only makes 1 mention of 401ks.

The article is about people not saving for retirement, and instead, just planning on never retiring.
 
2014-06-18 01:39:10 PM  

thornhill: The article only makes 1 mention of 401ks.


One must look at the post to which I was replying.

In said post, there was a link to an article about 401ks being a scam. And the "scam" was that people didn't put money in them.

For reference:

fusillade762: 401(k)s are a sham

Duped by a DIY retirement dream, the elderly now face staggeringly low living standards



/so I notice now that he said sham
//different word, same conclusion
 
2014-06-18 01:40:08 PM  
I predict (not that I know anything, but that won't stop me) that nothing much will change for another 4-6 years. That is when the peak of the baby boom (those born from 57-59) hit their early 60's. At that point, though a lot haven't saved enough for retirement, the majority will be able to retire with a little "incentive" from the government and/or their corporate masters. At the same time, the oldest baby boomers will be approaching their mid 70's and their mortality rates will start accelerating. If one can hang on until then, things will start getting better on the job front.
 
2014-06-18 02:16:05 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: some_beer_drinker: [radicalunjobbing.files.wordpress.com image 452x433]
how many farking times do i have to post this. universal basic income. it's what's right. at least for white people. those brown guys are on their own...

Maybe that's one place where Roddenberry picked up his ideas. I've been thinking that we're moving toward a Star Trek economy.

Some people in the near future won't work. They won't have to work. Through automation and efficiency the surpluses will be so great that we'll be able to provide a basic living for everyone without an undue burden on those who choose to work.

We'll achieve it without replicators or fission. I don't think money will disappear in the foreseeable future, but the way we think about it is going to change as surpluses are used to provide a reasonable standard of living to everyone. We already make enough food to feed the world, it's only a matter of getting it to those in need.

Economies will have to change. Governments will have to adapt. People are going to freak out about different "-isms" that are destroying their way of life or their beliefs. In a way the transition will.

The thing is, if this is the future coming down the pike then all the hand-wringing and outrage will be for naught. Grizzled old men can sit on their porches and complain about people not getting jobs and children will skip by and laugh at them.


I had an economics class that tried to forecast how this could work, what would be required, what values would have to change, etc. After a while, the entire class realized a major catastrophe on a global scale with lots of bad outcomes for a lot of people is the only way this could realistically work. Otherwise, no major group with power has a reason for anything to change for them. Only a lot of bad fortune might give them the right incentives.
 
2014-06-18 02:26:02 PM  

Ambivalence: Maturin: I figure I'll die in the saddle. Which is okay because I like my job and there is a chronic shortage of pediatricians. That and frankly, I don't ever see how I will be able to afford not to work.

How would a pediatrician not be able to afford to retire?


What he means is that he is a naturopath who specializes in alchemical alternatives to amoxicillin, like sage and mercury scrubs. Or maybe he is an exorcist who specializes in strep throat cases.
 
2014-06-18 02:28:53 PM  

Petit_Merdeux: thornhill: The article only makes 1 mention of 401ks.

One must look at the post to which I was replying.

In said post, there was a link to an article about 401ks being a scam. And the "scam" was that people didn't put money in them.

For reference:

fusillade762: 401(k)s are a sham

Duped by a DIY retirement dream, the elderly now face staggeringly low living standards


/so I notice now that he said sham
//different word, same conclusion


Sham is the wrong word.

I would say its value as a retirement savings vehicle is no where near as good as advertised (for reasons I already stated), and that many of the claims 401k boosters make are at best half truths, at worst flat out lies.
 
2014-06-18 02:52:44 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: some_beer_drinker: [radicalunjobbing.files.wordpress.com image 452x433]
how many farking times do i have to post this. universal basic income. it's what's right. at least for white people. those brown guys are on their own...

[img.fark.net image 467x173]

Maybe that's one place where Roddenberry picked up his ideas. I've been thinking that we're moving toward a Star Trek economy.

Some people in the near future won't work. They won't have to work. Through automation and efficiency the surpluses will be so great that we'll be able to provide a basic living for everyone without an undue burden on those who choose to work.

We'll achieve it without replicators or fission. I don't think money will disappear in the foreseeable future, but the way we think about it is going to change as surpluses are used to provide a reasonable standard of living to everyone. We already make enough food to feed the world, it's only a matter of getting it to those in need.

Economies will have to change. Governments will have to adapt. People are going to freak out about different "-isms" that are destroying their way of life or their beliefs. In a way the transition will.

The thing is, if this is the future coming down the pike then all the hand-wringing and outrage will be for naught. Grizzled old men can sit on their porches and complain about people not getting jobs and children will skip by and laugh at them.



Well if you want to use movies and tv as your crystal ball I think the future without the need for work would look more like Wall-E than Star Trek. Planets full of trash and everyone on a futurist hover-round
 
2014-06-18 03:11:33 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: some_beer_drinker: [radicalunjobbing.files.wordpress.com image 452x433]
how many farking times do i have to post this. universal basic income. it's what's right. at least for white people. those brown guys are on their own...

[img.fark.net image 467x173]

Maybe that's one place where Roddenberry picked up his ideas. I've been thinking that we're moving toward a Star Trek economy.

Some people in the near future won't work. They won't have to work. Through automation and efficiency the surpluses will be so great that we'll be able to provide a basic living for everyone without an undue burden on those who choose to work.

We'll achieve it without replicators or fission. I don't think money will disappear in the foreseeable future, but the way we think about it is going to change as surpluses are used to provide a reasonable standard of living to everyone. We already make enough food to feed the world, it's only a matter of getting it to those in need.

Economies will have to change. Governments will have to adapt. People are going to freak out about different "-isms" that are destroying their way of life or their beliefs. In a way the transition will.

The thing is, if this is the future coming down the pike then all the hand-wringing and outrage will be for naught. Grizzled old men can sit on their porches and complain about people not getting jobs and children will skip by and laugh at them.


The crew of the Enterprise all had jobs to do.  Nobody in that universe was handing out free starships so you could roam the galaxy for the sexing or shooting of alien babes.  They all had to earn their keep on the ship.  You want something in life you're probably gonna have to work for it.
 
2014-06-18 03:17:43 PM  
Back in the 60s, they thought that everybody in the future would work only 20 hours a week, because the machines would do everything. Instead, CEOs saw this as an opportunity to have one guy do the work of two, and pay him less than he made before, because "the machines do all the work."

I'm amazed that unemployment is as low as it is.
 
2014-06-18 04:53:12 PM  

bingethinker: Back in the 60s, they thought that everybody in the future would work only 20 hours a week, because the machines would do everything. Instead, CEOs saw this as an opportunity to have one guy do the work of two, and pay him less than he made before, because "the machines do all the work."

I'm amazed that unemployment is as low as it is.


So in one sentence, the prediction of the 60s didn't happen because the 80s happened.
 
2014-06-18 05:13:24 PM  

sufferpuppet: The crew of the Enterprise all had jobs to do. Nobody in that universe was handing out free starships so you could roam the galaxy for the sexing or shooting of alien babes. They all had to earn their keep on the ship. You want something in life you're probably gonna have to work for it.


But, the point is that if no one needs to work (because they can survive by not doing so), most people will still choose to do so anyway, even if they're not getting paid for it (because there's no need to be paid, because nothing costs money anymore), just because they enjoy doing whatever it is, and would be bored out of their skulls sitting at home doing nothing but surviving all day... No one was paying Picard and crew to go explore; they wanted to do that! Not only does it benefit them (by giving them something enjoyable to spend their time doing), but it benefits their society as a whole (by obtaining information about other planets and civilizations, protection from threats, forming alliences, etc.)... If no one is forced to work some miserable menial job that they hate just in order to survive, most will instead find something to do with their time that they actually enjoy, and usually that will end up having a more positive effect on society than the drudgework would have had...

At least, that's the theory Roddenberry was going with, anyway... I still think it'll take a replicator type device and a limitless free source of energy before we ever get there in reality... But, at that point, it's pretty much inevitable, I would think... If you can make literally anything for free, what's to keep you working your shiatty drudgework job?
 
2014-06-18 05:16:53 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: The thing is, if this is the future coming down the pike...


It's not.
 
2014-06-18 06:05:16 PM  

robohobo: some_beer_drinker: [radicalunjobbing.files.wordpress.com image 452x433]
how many farking times do i have to post this. universal basic income. it's what's right. at least for white people. those brown guys are on their own...

Yeah, good luck with that nonsense. Not even ridiculously left wing countries in Europe have even come close to enacting such wholesale Robin Hooding.


There are letters to Adam Smith from business owners complaining the serfs would not come work in their factories for the starvation wages being offered, preferring to stay at home idle and raising crops and livestock with the occasional hunting trip.
 
2014-06-18 07:12:30 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: We'll achieve it without replicators or fission. I don't think money will disappear in the foreseeable future, but the way we think about it is going to change as surpluses are used to provide a reasonable standard of living to everyone. We already make enough food to feed the world, it's only a matter of getting it to those in need.


And kill those who stand in the way. I'm dead. farking. serious. You want to harm others with your power, your life is forfeit.

HempHead: There are letters to Adam Smith from business owners complaining the serfs would not come work in their factories for the starvation wages being offered, preferring to stay at home idle and raising crops and livestock with the occasional hunting trip.


I would hardly call being agrarian "idle." They simply picked a more profitable position. Wasn't that bullshiat a big contributor to the establishment of the minimum wage?
 
2014-06-18 07:45:53 PM  
I hope to retire at about 65 but if I can't, I'll keep working. It all depends on the economic climate at that time.

/i'm going on 52
 
2014-06-18 07:51:38 PM  

GodComplex: WTFDYW: There are plenty of good paying jobs out there in the trades. Companies are begging for skilled tradespeople across most of the nation. But then again, the people with the arts degree and English degree would have to train for awhile in the given trade (welding, plumbing, HVAC, masonry etc.) and be willing to get sore muscles and dirty hands. Ain't gonna happen for the most part.

As someone who dug ditches to pay for their 'liberal arts' degree, DIAF. As someone who works with guys who have to have back surgery before they hit 30, FU. The reason most of us went to school is so we didn't have to continue doing labor. The idea was that we were suppose to be managing the guys who were doing the labor, but in an unhealthy economy companies don't have the funds to train people, so they want those with experience whom they can hire at substandard wages as there is a glut of overqualified people.

Besides, having too many people in the trades diminishes the value of the trade. If everyone is a plumber, no one needs a plumber. A functioning economy needs a diversity of skills and mindsets or we don't have an economy. Also avoids group think, cause that's never a good thing.

Anyway, the simplest solution to the problem is to find a way to get money into the hands of the lower class, and it will trickle up by the end of the day, changing hands several times over, which will in turn create demand and jobs.

Or we can start hunting plutocrats and oligarchs for sport. I'm game either way.


By the way son, there ARE companies that will pay to train anyone that wants to get dirty. YOU obviosly aren't one of them. GOOGLE your area and check it out.
 
2014-06-18 08:51:31 PM  

sephjnr: bingethinker: Back in the 60s, they thought that everybody in the future would work only 20 hours a week, because the machines would do everything. Instead, CEOs saw this as an opportunity to have one guy do the work of two, and pay him less than he made before, because "the machines do all the work."

I'm amazed that unemployment is as low as it is.

So in one sentence, the prediction of the 60s didn't happen because the 80s happened.


Yes. Reality happened.
 
2014-06-19 12:49:07 PM  

WTFDYW: Companies are begging for skilled tradespeople across most of the nation. But then again, the people with the arts degree and English degree would have to train for awhile in the given trade (welding, plumbing, HVAC, masonry etc.) and be willing to get sore muscles and dirty hands


That's because smart people realize earlier on that climbing on roofs and under houses and lifting bricks and cinderblocks are not something you can do as easily at 60 as you can at 20. Many of the trades are for younger people, as evidenced by the 50+ year olds who retired from said trades with broken bodies and pain. Manual labor is cool and all, but the body has it's limits.

Not only that, most of us (unless you're Hindu) get only one shot at life... it should be spent doing what you want to do, not just what "companies are begging for". If you want the trades, more power to ya... but not everyone wants that, nor should they. Society needs the arts and English as much as they need toilets that work... both are hallmarks of civilization.
 
2014-06-19 12:51:17 PM  

bingethinker: sephjnr: bingethinker: Back in the 60s, they thought that everybody in the future would work only 20 hours a week, because the machines would do everything. Instead, CEOs saw this as an opportunity to have one guy do the work of two, and pay him less than he made before, because "the machines do all the work."

I'm amazed that unemployment is as low as it is.

So in one sentence, the prediction of the 60s didn't happen because the 80s happened.

Yes. Reality happened.


NO. Greed happened. And it didn't have to.
 
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