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(Den of Geek (US))   The potentially insurmountable wall that Game of Thrones is now facing   (denofgeek.us) divider line 119
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7378 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 18 Jun 2014 at 4:59 AM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-17 11:34:43 PM
IOW, Season 5 is going to have to either (i) go off the map or (ii) start ignoring the characters we know in favor of going really in depth in other storylines (i.e. the Martells and Greyjoys) in order to stretch material.

It's gonna be a challenge.
 
2014-06-18 12:15:02 AM
wow that guy likes to write a lot of words that go nowhere.

1) everyone in universe knows that HBO is going to combine book 4 and 5. FFS, they take place at the same time.
2) you REALLY think that they will cut book 4 and 5 into one season - season 5, and then end up with NOTHING for season 6? ROFL

Sucks to be us, but we will have season 5 and 6, with a bunch of filler. Whatever.
So far the show runners have done a great job, my guess is that they will cut the fat from the two books and still have enough for 2 seasons.
 
2014-06-18 12:38:30 AM

namatad: wow that guy likes to write a lot of words that go nowhere.


I think he was trying to avoid explicit spoilers. It does read awkwardly.

namatad: 2) you REALLY think that they will cut book 4 and 5 into one season - season 5, and then end up with NOTHING for season 6? ROFL

Sucks to be us, but we will have season 5 and 6, with a bunch of filler. Whatever.


There's no way they can possibly do this. They can't make the next 2 seasons out of books 4 and 5. Aside from it just being way too boring, there's literally not enough story. Take a look at this link which talks about how many chapters there are left for each character, and this is as of May 4, so its actually even worse. IIRC, there's only a single chapter left for Bran, for example.

How is this supposed to work? Bran gets one scene in the next 2 seasons? Melisandre gets 2? Can't happen. They need to condense all this shiat WAAAAY down.
 
2014-06-18 12:42:00 AM

namatad: wow that guy likes to write a lot of words that go nowhere.

1) everyone in universe knows that HBO is going to combine book 4 and 5. FFS, they take place at the same time.
2) you REALLY think that they will cut book 4 and 5 into one season - season 5, and then end up with NOTHING for season 6? ROFL

Sucks to be us, but we will have season 5 and 6, with a bunch of filler. Whatever.
So far the show runners have done a great job, my guess is that they will cut the fat from the two books and still have enough for 2 seasons.


Oh they've done a grreat job so far, and they can't please everyone, but the problem is that Martin has killed off almost all of his primary and secondary characters, or scattered them so widely that they're not interacting.  You end up getting entire chapters narrated by tertiary at best characters like Quentyn Martell's companions.

The primary characters?

Well...Dany gets married to a boring and unpronouncable guy. Arya is a nameless assassin.  Jon gets Caesared. Tyrion gets drunk and wanders around looking for wherever the whores go. And Bran turns into a tree.  Did I miss anyone?
 
2014-06-18 12:43:31 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: Well...Dany gets married to a boring and unpronouncable guy. Arya is a nameless assassin.  Jon gets Caesared. Tyrion gets drunk and wanders around looking for wherever the whores go. And Bran turns into a tree.  Did I miss anyone?


Jaime talks to Edmure, Cersei walks naked, Brienne walks around a lot talking to random people.
 
2014-06-18 12:46:04 AM
Even if they do both books in one season, Sansa's, Bran's and Theon's storylines are pretty much caught up with the 5th book anyway.
 
2014-06-18 12:47:55 AM

Confabulat: Even if they do both books in one season, Sansa's, Bran's and Theon's storylines are pretty much caught up with the 5th book anyway.


Yup. If they want to make it two seasons, they are going to piss off a bunch of people since 80% of the time is going to have to be spend with new characters - Euron, Victarion, Doran, Quentyn, Penny, the High Sparrow, Hizdar.

I'm already bored.
 
2014-06-18 12:55:35 AM

DamnYankees: Cersei walks naked


She could do this for 10 hours. Add Sansa's coming-of-age nude scenes, presumably with a couple of whores showing her how to really pleasure herself, and you have Season 5.
 
2014-06-18 01:34:22 AM
They could make a lot of a season from the iron Islands power struggle they seem so eager to ignore.
 
2014-06-18 01:34:54 AM

RobertBruce: They could make a lot of a season from the iron Islands power struggle they seem so eager to ignore.


God that's boring though.
 
2014-06-18 01:53:35 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: namatad: wow that guy likes to write a lot of words that go nowhere.

1) everyone in universe knows that HBO is going to combine book 4 and 5. FFS, they take place at the same time.
2) you REALLY think that they will cut book 4 and 5 into one season - season 5, and then end up with NOTHING for season 6? ROFL

Sucks to be us, but we will have season 5 and 6, with a bunch of filler. Whatever.
So far the show runners have done a great job, my guess is that they will cut the fat from the two books and still have enough for 2 seasons.

Oh they've done a grreat job so far, and they can't please everyone, but the problem is that Martin has killed off almost all of his primary and secondary characters, or scattered them so widely that they're not interacting.  You end up getting entire chapters narrated by tertiary at best characters like Quentyn Martell's companions.

The primary characters?

Well...Dany gets married to a boring and unpronouncable guy. Arya is a nameless assassin.  Jon gets Caesared. Tyrion gets drunk and wanders around looking for wherever the whores go. And Bran turns into a tree.  Did I miss anyone?


Cersei, jamie, brienne, sansa, pieter, stannis (lead?? ROFL), samwise , stoneheart
but yah, we are in the doldrums of the middle of the story. it is the two towers all over again.
All the other story lines are introductions to the new places and new secondary characters ...

I guess in the end, the dead primary characters are replaced by the major secondaries, and they get replaced by minor and new characters.
meh
 
2014-06-18 01:54:45 AM

Confabulat: RobertBruce: They could make a lot of a season from the iron Islands power struggle they seem so eager to ignore.

God that's boring though.


what iron isles? seriously, I stopped reading them half way through. Any halfway competent editor would have cut them all, or 90% of them.
 
2014-06-18 05:49:07 AM
Martin is a really slow writer who is more concerned with describing food than furthering the plot?

*reads article*

Yep.
 
2014-06-18 06:20:17 AM
I don't really care. I'm happy with what they've done thus far.
I'm not sure I ever expected series to be finished by the TV show anyways.
I don't really expect RR will finish it either, no matter what his plans may or may not be.

Sometimes that happens with authors, they make a great thing and either can't, won't or don't know how to bring everything to a resolution.

The show may die in another season or two? Meh

Then whenever RR has a heart attack or stroke, his wife will greenlight some other author to finish it and you'll get your ending and forever everyone will wonder "but what if he'd done it himself?"
 
2014-06-18 06:26:33 AM
Every article like this is 'I dont like the last 2 books so I think the show will be shiat' 'oh and also I heard people say about food and they got laughs so I will run with that one even if it isnt really true at all'
 
2014-06-18 06:34:31 AM

DamnYankees: Take a look at this link which talks about how many chapters there are left for each character, and this is as of May 4, so its actually even worse. IIRC, there's only a single chapter left for Bran, for example.


What link?  Would like to see it.
 
2014-06-18 06:49:00 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: And Bran turns into a tree.


Seriously?  That sounds boring as shiat.
 
2014-06-18 07:04:42 AM
Hoopefully they condense it.

HBO shoudl do what a good editor would have done, cut out the filler that doesn't move the plot.
 
2014-06-18 07:07:38 AM

namatad: 2) you REALLY think that they will cut book 4 and 5 into one season - season 5, and then end up with NOTHING for season 6? ROFL

DamnYankees: There's no way they can possibly do this. They can't make the next 2 seasons out of books 4 and 5. Aside from it just being way too boring, there's literally not enough story.

Not to mention the actors aren't getting any younger.

MurphyMurphy: Sometimes that happens with authors, they make a great thing and either can't, won't or don't know how to bring everything to a resolution.

That is, by definition, not a great thing.
 
2014-06-18 07:11:00 AM

gaspode: Every article like this is 'I dont like the last 2 books so I think the show will be shiat' 'oh and also I heard people say about food and they got laughs so I will run with that one even if it isnt really true at all'


It's very true. I've never read such long dull descriptions of meals in an other novels, that's for sure.
 
2014-06-18 07:11:08 AM
Whores and high born maids go where? And just how many things rhyme with Reek? These important questions and many more to be answered in the next episode of Game of Thrones.
 
2014-06-18 07:19:29 AM
RR Martin knows where he wants the characters to end up.  I am not sure he knows how to get them there.  It may be easier for him to let the HBO show play out and then finish writing the books based on what took place on the show.  It would be more profitable for him to write the books first as I imagine some fans wouldn't bother to read the last books if the show already spoiled the end.
 
2014-06-18 07:29:35 AM
From a cinematic narrative standpoint, I think it's a real problem at this point that Dany's story is still totally disconnected from every other character's story.  With some of the traveling that's begun as of the end of this season, that now has the potential to change, and it should.  If that means deviation from the books, so be it.  Maybe the books at this point aren't the best source material any more.
 
2014-06-18 07:44:34 AM

karmachameleon: From a cinematic narrative standpoint, I think it's a real problem at this point that Dany's story is still totally disconnected from every other character's story.  With some of the traveling that's begun as of the end of this season, that now has the potential to change, and it should.  If that means deviation from the books, so be it.  Maybe the books at this point aren't the best source material any more.


so much needs to happen in westeros before she can come conquer. So we are stuck with her boring storyline for five or six seasons before she does what's interesting. It's like they're never gonna get to the fireworks factory.
 
2014-06-18 07:46:08 AM
That's assuming the writers suddenly become complete idiots...
www.flash-game-design.com
....oh.
 
2014-06-18 07:50:33 AM

bark_atda_moon: RR Martin knows where he wants the characters to end up.  I am not sure he knows how to get them there.  It may be easier for him to let the HBO show play out and then finish writing the books based on what took place on the show.  It would be more profitable for him to write the books first as I imagine some fans wouldn't bother to read the last books if the show already spoiled the end.


I think there lies the major problem. He has dug such a big hole for all the major characters that it will take multiple deus ex machina moments for the plots to resolve the way he wants them.

For example, I doubt he truly means to leave Ramsay Bolton ruling the North, but the previous books have so badly mauled any opposition that there is no realistic way to remove him.

He keeps dumping problem after problem on Daenarys half a world away. She and her dragons won't be getting to Westeros any time soon without some sloppy divine intervention.

Unless Martin intends the series to end on a truly dark note, I just don't see how he gets out of some of the holes he has created.
 
2014-06-18 07:57:58 AM
Apparently, from what I've read online, Jamie will be going to Dorne instead of the Riverlands.

Anyway, just add in the Martells, Varys and Aegon's campaign, Jorah and Tyrion running into each other, Jamie in Dorne, Arya's assassin training, Cersei's downward spiral, Sansa in the Vale, Dany getting diarrhea, and Jon and Stannis' campaign in the North and bam season 5 is done.
 
2014-06-18 08:00:18 AM

Copperbelly watersnake: I doubt he truly means to leave Ramsay Bolton ruling the North, but the previous books have so badly mauled any opposition that there is no realistic way to remove him.


Oh, how soon we forget Wyman Manderly. The only opposition Martin needs to provide is one that Manderly has asked Davos for. Bring home the liege lord and the North will turn their backs on Bolton.

Copperbelly watersnake: She and her dragons won't be getting to Westeros any time soon without some sloppy divine intervention.


Like....say......a fleet of ships coming from Westeros manned with the most fearsome naval force on the planet?

Seriously, the two situations that you bring up already have built in resolutions.
 
2014-06-18 08:08:43 AM

Copperbelly watersnake: He keeps dumping problem after problem on Daenarys half a world away. She and her dragons won't be getting to Westeros any time soon without some sloppy divine intervention.



This is by far the biggest problem with the books and the show.  At this point the character has been away from Westeros for so long and she has accomplished so much, it seems rather odd for her to go back.  It makes more sense for her to be happy ruling Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen or perhaps taking over more of Essos.
 
2014-06-18 08:12:02 AM

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Copperbelly watersnake: I doubt he truly means to leave Ramsay Bolton ruling the North, but the previous books have so badly mauled any opposition that there is no realistic way to remove him.

Oh, how soon we forget Wyman Manderly. The only opposition Martin needs to provide is one that Manderly has asked Davos for. Bring home the liege lord and the North will turn their backs on Bolton.

Copperbelly watersnake: She and her dragons won't be getting to Westeros any time soon without some sloppy divine intervention.

Like....say......a fleet of ships coming from Westeros manned with the most fearsome naval force on the planet?

Seriously, the two situations that you bring up already have built in resolutions.


Except the Northmen who would rally around a Stark all had their armies devastated in the south. It will be White Harbor and whatever skeleton forces were left to guard the castles versus the relativily intact armies of the Boltons and Freys. What else have they got, the Bogmen?
 
2014-06-18 08:20:00 AM
Slash the hell out of Dorne. Make the Kingsmoot last two minutes. Add new book material for characters who have eaten up all of theirs already. There's enough book material left for one good TV season, then all bets are off.
 
2014-06-18 08:22:26 AM

bark_atda_moon: This is by far the biggest problem with the books and the show. At this point the character has been away from Westeros for so long and she has accomplished so much, it seems rather odd for her to go back. It makes more sense for her to be happy ruling Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen or perhaps taking over more of Essos.

Some here are arguing that an anticlimax where Westeroes becomes zombieland and Dany never sets foot there is the actual planned outcome.  I find that highly unlikely, but taking that at face value, it would make Dany's story 100% filler in relation to Westeros and vice versa.  Making ASoIaF not an epic so much as the most discombobulated anthology ever published.
 
2014-06-18 08:23:33 AM
Am I the only one that wants the show writers to just tell GRRM "Ok, thanks for the start, we got the rest of this shiat"
 
2014-06-18 08:24:19 AM

Copperbelly watersnake: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Copperbelly watersnake: I doubt he truly means to leave Ramsay Bolton ruling the North, but the previous books have so badly mauled any opposition that there is no realistic way to remove him.

Oh, how soon we forget Wyman Manderly. The only opposition Martin needs to provide is one that Manderly has asked Davos for. Bring home the liege lord and the North will turn their backs on Bolton.

Copperbelly watersnake: She and her dragons won't be getting to Westeros any time soon without some sloppy divine intervention.

Like....say......a fleet of ships coming from Westeros manned with the most fearsome naval force on the planet?

Seriously, the two situations that you bring up already have built in resolutions.

Except the Northmen who would rally around a Stark all had their armies devastated in the south. It will be White Harbor and whatever skeleton forces were left to guard the castles versus the relativily intact armies of the Boltons and Freys. What else have they got, the Bogmen?


I think the Battle on the Ice will go in Stannis' favor, although I'm not sure how they'd spare Manderly's men unless they straight up defect which I don't think they're quite at the point to do.

Anyway, if Stannis wins, Winterfell will be surrounded and the Boltons could be killed and would be left with no leader knocking them out for the time being. As for the Frey's, they need to maintain the Riverlands full of people who don't like them and with the force they sent North wiped out, I doubt they'd muster their forces for a full campaign.
 
2014-06-18 08:24:56 AM

Copperbelly watersnake: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Copperbelly watersnake: I doubt he truly means to leave Ramsay Bolton ruling the North, but the previous books have so badly mauled any opposition that there is no realistic way to remove him.

Oh, how soon we forget Wyman Manderly. The only opposition Martin needs to provide is one that Manderly has asked Davos for. Bring home the liege lord and the North will turn their backs on Bolton.

Copperbelly watersnake: She and her dragons won't be getting to Westeros any time soon without some sloppy divine intervention.

Like....say......a fleet of ships coming from Westeros manned with the most fearsome naval force on the planet?

Seriously, the two situations that you bring up already have built in resolutions.

Except the Northmen who would rally around a Stark all had their armies devastated in the south. It will be White Harbor and whatever skeleton forces were left to guard the castles versus the relativily intact armies of the Boltons and Freys. What else have they got, the Bogmen?


You mean other than the host of the One True King of Westeros? The White Harbor army is also nothing to sneeze at. Manderly even makes mention that his army has been largely untouched by the war. Dustin and Ryswell are the only houses truly loyal to Bolton, the rest of the northern lords that make up his army follow him begrudgingly. Were Rickon to return to reclaim his lordship, those northern lords will turn on Roose in a minute and all he'll have is his household army and the Freys. Manderly has already shown a willingness to bake Freys.
 
2014-06-18 08:26:17 AM

Enlightened Liberal: although I'm not sure how they'd spare Manderly's men unless they straight up defect which I don't think they're quite at the point to do.


I think Lord Too Fat To Ride a Horse will lag behind the main host, hoping Davos shows up with Rickon to save him the trouble.
 
2014-06-18 08:43:19 AM

bark_atda_moon: Copperbelly watersnake: He keeps dumping problem after problem on Daenarys half a world away. She and her dragons won't be getting to Westeros any time soon without some sloppy divine intervention.


This is by far the biggest problem with the books and the show.  At this point the character has been away from Westeros for so long and she has accomplished so much, it seems rather odd for her to go back.  It makes more sense for her to be happy ruling Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen or perhaps taking over more of Essos.


But that's the point.

It seems unlikely that anyone in Westeros would really care about her blood line; she'd end up just being another unelected dictator who rules by fear, even if that rule is more benevolent than the last few rulers.

And her first stint at leadership is pretty mediocre.
 
2014-06-18 08:56:17 AM

Two Dogs Farking: DamnYankees: Cersei walks naked

She could do this for 10 hours. Add Sansa's coming-of-age nude scenes, presumably with a couple of whores showing her how to really pleasure herself, and you have Season 5.


we need Dany and Melisandre to have a go at each other for a few episodes too.
 
2014-06-18 09:06:37 AM

liam76: Hoopefully they condense it.

HBO shoudl do what a good editor would have done, cut out the filler that doesn't move the plot.


That's about two books of material. Seriously, Martin is an overrated writer who has no idea how to move a story along.
 
2014-06-18 09:16:52 AM

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Enlightened Liberal: although I'm not sure how they'd spare Manderly's men unless they straight up defect which I don't think they're quite at the point to do.

I think Lord Too Fat To Ride a Horse will lag behind the main host, hoping Davos shows up with Rickon to save him the trouble.


Rickon will be used to start the war and the Boltons will be attacked by Manderly and Stannis, with house Umber coming late to the battle to join the Starks, however I'm betting that Zombie Jon will end up taking over and finishing it.  Jon will have his bastardy removed by King Stannis, making him Jon Stark.  Maester Samwell will argue that Jon's oath to the Night's Watch ended at his death.  Later, Jon will be revealed to be Lyanna's son and he will gracefully bow out and give over to Rickon so that he can press his claim for the Iron Throne.  He'll bargain with Dany to defeat the White Walkers and they'll get married and rule together.  Moon Boy will be named Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West.  Book it.
 
2014-06-18 09:21:32 AM
The problem isn't the lack of material.  There's enough of that for the show to choose from for now.

To my eye, the problem starts being political between GRRM and the show.  Sure, he's shared his outline with the show, but he's the kind of author who will just do whatever he wants when he actually gets to the page.  He will make changes to the plot without consulting the show staff, even take it in a completely different direction if he wants to.

That means there is the possibility that the show will make misssteps because they are relying on their own choices instead of already knowing what worked well from the novels.  And you have GRRM, who will just say "Oh well, that's not what I wrote."  Which is exactly what he did after that scene with Cersei and Jamie.

The largest conflict here could arise over the ending.  If the show finishes it one way and GRRM finishes in a substantially different way, there will be comparisons.  If there is a clear fan preference for one over the other, it will hurt the sales in the losing media.
 
2014-06-18 09:26:04 AM

James Rieper: The problem isn't the lack of material.  There's enough of that for the show to choose from for now.

To my eye, the problem starts being political between GRRM and the show.  Sure, he's shared his outline with the show, but he's the kind of author who will just do whatever he wants when he actually gets to the page.  He will make changes to the plot without consulting the show staff, even take it in a completely different direction if he wants to.

That means there is the possibility that the show will make misssteps because they are relying on their own choices instead of already knowing what worked well from the novels.  And you have GRRM, who will just say "Oh well, that's not what I wrote."  Which is exactly what he did after that scene with Cersei and Jamie.

The largest conflict here could arise over the ending.  If the show finishes it one way and GRRM finishes in a substantially different way, there will be comparisons.  If there is a clear fan preference for one over the other, it will hurt the sales in the losing media.


Honestly either way the book sales are going to suffer. If the showrunners end it badly, people will assume GRRM's ending was crap and not buy it. If the ending is awesome, nobody's going to want to slog through 10,000 pages of boiled leather and capons when they've already gotten their red meat.
 
2014-06-18 09:40:47 AM

Persnickety: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Enlightened Liberal: although I'm not sure how they'd spare Manderly's men unless they straight up defect which I don't think they're quite at the point to do.

I think Lord Too Fat To Ride a Horse will lag behind the main host, hoping Davos shows up with Rickon to save him the trouble.

Rickon will be used to start the war and the Boltons will be attacked by Manderly and Stannis, with house Umber coming late to the battle to join the Starks, however I'm betting that Zombie Jon will end up taking over and finishing it.  Jon will have his bastardy removed by King Stannis, making him Jon Stark.  Maester Samwell will argue that Jon's oath to the Night's Watch ended at his death.  Later, Jon will be revealed to be Lyanna's son and he will gracefully bow out and give over to Rickon so that he can press his claim for the Iron Throne.  He'll bargain with Dany to defeat the White Walkers and they'll get married and rule together.  Moon Boy will be named Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West.  Book it.


notsureifserious.jpg

Jon already rejected legitimacy.
Samwell isn't even an acolyte yet, much less a full fledged Maester. Even if he were a Maester, only the High Septon can relieve someone of their vows. Even if he could argue that point, if UnJon comes back, he won't be the same Jon as he was. Resurrection changes people.

The rest is just trollery.
 
2014-06-18 09:43:41 AM
I agree.  There are scenarios in which the show and the books could complement each other, but so far the sales dates aren't matching up between the DVDs and the books.  At a minimum, that would have to happen.

If the plot diverges, it gets worse.
 
2014-06-18 09:47:21 AM
Martin is a bad author. He has good ideas, but he is a hack at getting them artfully on the page. This is an unpopular opinion, I feel the exact same way about Tolkien. But in Game of Thrones the tv series is a much superior vision of the material, and while they make mistakes (rape scene), I trust them to make a better story than Martin.

Brienne killing the hound is a great change. Moving Theon and Sansa storylines up? Also great. I have faith that they will do a good job. The only issue with the tv show finishing is that Martin will completely change the books and try to improve it, or make a minor character super important as a screw job to everyone. He has only himself to blame. He should quit writing and let the adults finish.
 
2014-06-18 09:49:11 AM

namatad: wow that guy likes to write a lot of words that go nowhere.

1) everyone in universe knows that HBO is going to combine book 4 and 5. FFS, they take place at the same time.
2) you REALLY think that they will cut book 4 and 5 into one season - season 5, and then end up with NOTHING for season 6? ROFL

Sucks to be us, but we will have season 5 and 6, with a bunch of filler. Whatever.
So far the show runners have done a great job, my guess is that they will cut the fat from the two books and still have enough for 2 seasons.



You already have so much stuff cut from a book anyway so no real need for filler.

I'm confident that HBO will tweak the story lines enough. I rarely mind stories that skip around but it got to be a bit much in book 4/5.
 
2014-06-18 09:51:40 AM

Jaws_Victim: I trust them to make a better story than Martin.


Question, what did you think of the Purple Wedding episode?
 
2014-06-18 09:52:53 AM

The_Six_Fingered_Man: only the High Septon can relieve someone of their vows.



Not true.  The Night's Watch vows are to the death.  Since Jon is dead he has fulfilled his vows.  When The Red Woman brings him back, he will be free of his vows and can accept the offer made by Stannis.  As soon as Jon was killed, I was sure that this is the exact path his story line would be taking and I will be very surprised if it does not.
 
2014-06-18 09:52:54 AM
Gendry has been the showrunner's wildcard since he was taken to Dragonstone. I think they have a storyline for him in mind.
 
2014-06-18 09:56:02 AM
They need to do at least one episode about how Mycroft farking Holmes ended up head of the Iron Bank.
 
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