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(Vulture)   "Game of Thrones" book nerds pour their fury online after season finale fails to include [spoilers]   (vulture.com) divider line 223
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6576 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 16 Jun 2014 at 11:11 AM (14 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-16 10:42:43 AM
I'm not mad, I'm just stunned. How do you NOT do that? How??? It would have been insanely perfect.

Good finale, but still, this is 2 episodes in a row where I feel like they totally blew the ending. Last week, Stannis absolutely should have showed up at the end. And this week, how do you NOT include Cat? I'm just...I don't know what to say.

The only logic I can think of is they know they need to stretch out the next 2 seasons, so they are saving it?
 
2014-06-16 10:55:28 AM
I was surprised they didn't include it, but hardly moved to anger.
The producers have been doing a great job so far, so I have faith that they know what they're doing with that scene.
 
2014-06-16 11:04:01 AM
I would have liked to see her, but I still thought it was a great episode.
 
2014-06-16 11:14:09 AM
I'm not surprised it wasn't there. Everything I've read up to this point lead me to conclude it probably wouldn't be included in the finale.

I think it would probably have made for a good note to go out on, but I'm not too broken up about it. The finale was still good. (Although I think I can confidently say that I prefer the episode 9 climax with the episode 10 denouement more than the season finale climax, now).
 
2014-06-16 11:15:08 AM

DamnYankees: The only logic I can think of is they know they need to stretch out the next 2 seasons, so they are saving it?


I think perhaps they want to be able to contextualize it so they don't drive away more casual fans with something so facially bizarre.

Or maybe Michelle Fairley was unavailable b/c of shooting the new 24 series.
 
JW
2014-06-16 11:16:14 AM
Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.
 
2014-06-16 11:16:56 AM
All I want to know is does the God of Tits and Wine finally make an appearance or is this another sausagefest?
 
2014-06-16 11:20:06 AM

JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.


Because it would have changed what exactly?

Tyrion still feels betrayed by his father and hates him for the years of abuse.  Adding one more thing for him to hate his father for doesn't matter

Its the other side of the speech w/ "Cersi farked Moonboy for all I know" that's the problem
 
2014-06-16 11:22:14 AM
You guys realize that Michelle Fairley, aka Catelyn Stark, aka Lady Stoneheart...
Is currently on this season of 24.
So...I'm certain, contracts don't allow her to be on two hit shows of two different networks...
Patience, grasshoppers!!!
I'm certain once 24 wraps, she'll start filming Game of Thrones in full on, Walking Dead, zombie make-up.
Will most likely...just guessing...but she will most likely make her appearance at the very end of Season 5, episode 1...
JUST WATCH!!!
 
2014-06-16 11:22:39 AM

JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.


I thought the same thing at first, but on reflection, that's a really weird thing to bring up at that moment. It works ok in the books, but I was imagining the conversation in the show the whole time the scene where it would have appeared was going and thinking "actually, this is going to be a weirdly out-of-left-field conversation." I was still disappointed, but not as much as I'd have thought I'd be.
 
2014-06-16 11:22:57 AM

JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.


Actually, screw Lady Stoneheart. That omission COMPLETELY changes his character arc.

Where do the whores go now, that no one knew to care?
 
2014-06-16 11:23:36 AM

ShadowKamui: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.


Because it would have changed what exactly?


I felt that way at first too, but we already have a dead whore to hate his dad over, so it all worked out. Dinklage's dead expression made that scene worth it.
 
2014-06-16 11:23:53 AM

ShadowKamui: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.

Because it would have changed what exactly?


It was an important moment for both Jaime and Tyrion, sending their character development in two different directions. Tyrion goes into a downward spiral and Jaime continues on his "redemption" path.
 
2014-06-16 11:24:02 AM

Delta1212: I think it would probably have made for a good note to go out on,


or a nice reveal to open next season with.

Delta1212: but I'm not too broken up about it. The finale was still good.


Agreed. I liked this season the best so far.
 
2014-06-16 11:24:48 AM
I admit I like that TV Tyrion and Jaime are still best buds, cause it sure didn't work out like that in the books.


Interesting omission from the showrunners though. I guess we never do find out where they go.
 
2014-06-16 11:25:27 AM
praise jesus another GoT thread. longest forty seconds in recent memory.
 
2014-06-16 11:25:57 AM

Rawhead Rex: You guys realize that Michelle Fairley, aka Catelyn Stark, aka Lady Stoneheart...
Is currently on this season of 24.
So...I'm certain, contracts don't allow her to be on two hit shows of two different networks...
Patience, grasshoppers!!!
I'm certain once 24 wraps, she'll start filming Game of Thrones in full on, Walking Dead, zombie make-up.
Will most likely...just guessing...but she will most likely make her appearance at the very end of Season 5, episode 1...
JUST WATCH!!!


Just like how Michiel Huisman couldn't simultaneously appear on Game of Thrones, Orphan Black and Nashville, or how Elyes Gabel couldn't be on concurrently airing seasons of Game of Thrones and The Borgias.
 
2014-06-16 11:26:09 AM

Rawhead Rex: You guys realize that Michelle Fairley, aka Catelyn Stark, aka Lady Stoneheart...
Is currently on this season of 24.
So...I'm certain, contracts don't allow her to be on two hit shows of two different networks...


It's literally one shot. All they needed was her to act for literally a single shot - it would take 20 minutes of her time. There's no way this is the issue.
 
2014-06-16 11:27:13 AM

Delta1212: I'm not surprised it wasn't there. Everything I've read up to this point lead me to conclude it probably wouldn't be included in the finale.

I think it would probably have made for a good note to go out on, but I'm not too broken up about it. The finale was still good. (Although I think I can confidently say that I prefer the episode 9 climax with the episode 10 denouement more than the season finale climax, now).


Disagree - Lena Headey practically told the world it was happening through this instagram. It was either supposed to be in and it was cut after this post, or she's the greatest troll in the world.

i.huffpost.com
 
2014-06-16 11:28:11 AM

Confabulat: Actually, screw Lady Stoneheart. That omission COMPLETELY changes his character arc.


People are freaking out over this. I disagree. The only thing it changes, as far as I can tell, is Tyrion doesn't hate Jaime as much as he probably should. Otherwise I don't really see any difference. He already had sufficient reason to kill Tywin and he already knows his family hated and despised him his entire life.
 
2014-06-16 11:28:58 AM

kronicfeld: ShadowKamui: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.

Because it would have changed what exactly?

It was an important moment for both Jaime and Tyrion, sending their character development in two different directions. Tyrion goes into a downward spiral and Jaime continues on his "redemption" path.


Tyrion already has everything to go on a downward spiral
  -Betrayed by the woman he loved and then killed
  -Killed his father
  -Wanted dead by his sister
  -On the run in a strange land far from home

All the problems vs the book are w/ Jamie's character development
 
2014-06-16 11:29:34 AM

ShadowKamui: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.

Because it would have changed what exactly?

Tyrion still feels betrayed by his father and hates him for the years of abuse.  Adding one more thing for him to hate his father for doesn't matter

Its the other side of the speech w/ "Cersi farked Moonboy for all I know" that's the problem


I think that conversation was supposed to show that Tyrion is done with Jamie too at this point, which is a pretty huge change in their relationship.
 
2014-06-16 11:29:38 AM

DamnYankees: Delta1212: I'm not surprised it wasn't there. Everything I've read up to this point lead me to conclude it probably wouldn't be included in the finale.

I think it would probably have made for a good note to go out on, but I'm not too broken up about it. The finale was still good. (Although I think I can confidently say that I prefer the episode 9 climax with the episode 10 denouement more than the season finale climax, now).

Disagree - Lena Headey practically told the world it was happening through this instagram. It was either supposed to be in and it was cut after this post, or she's the greatest troll in the world.


Or people read into that post something that she hadn't intended because she hasn't read the books and has no idea who that character is.

That post was months ago and there's been more than enough said since them to cast doubt on a Stoneheart appearance.
 
2014-06-16 11:29:42 AM
Subby: "Game of Thrones" book nerds pour their fury online after season finale fails to include...

...a disclaimer that this is an adaptation, instead of a faithful chapter-by-chapter retelling of the books.

/yes, that's your real problem with it
 
2014-06-16 11:33:19 AM

Delta1212: Or people read into that post something that she hadn't intended because she hasn't read the books and has no idea who that character is.


I'd buy that if she hadn't already posted this one as well:

www.cinefilos.it
 
2014-06-16 11:34:35 AM

Via Infinito: I think that conversation was supposed to show that Tyrion is done with Jamie too at this point, which is a pretty huge change in their relationship.


Maybe. My understanding is that after Tyrion leaves, he and Jamie have never seen each other again, even in the books. It's totally possible that by the time the show and the books meet up, the relationship will be the same in both (either Tyrion hates him, Tyrion doesn't, or one/both is dead).
 
2014-06-16 11:35:34 AM
Btw, I saw the uproar on twitter before I saw the episode. All I knew was there was furor about LSH.

I thought they might have included LSH, but made it Talisa. That would have been amazing.
 
2014-06-16 11:38:55 AM

DamnYankees: Confabulat: Actually, screw Lady Stoneheart. That omission COMPLETELY changes his character arc.

People are freaking out over this. I disagree. The only thing it changes, as far as I can tell, is Tyrion doesn't hate Jaime as much as he probably should. Otherwise I don't really see any difference. He already had sufficient reason to kill Tywin and he already knows his family hated and despised him his entire life.


IIRC Jaime didn't intend it to be so mean, that was mostly Tywin. It was some nice back story on the Imp, but leaving it out isn't a big deal.

I wasn't disappointing by not seeing Cat again either. The books haven't shown any solid reason that her character will be all that relevant. What's a few less Frays in the world?
 
2014-06-16 11:40:19 AM
All of those nerds, trembling and flushed with anger, tears and snot running down their faces as they're taunted by those who didn't read the books:  "You were wrong about the final scene!  You were wrong!"
 
2014-06-16 11:40:26 AM

DamnYankees: Delta1212: Or people read into that post something that she hadn't intended because she hasn't read the books and has no idea who that character is.

I'd buy that if she hadn't already posted this one as well:


Willingness to post "spoilers" doesn't make everything she posts a spoiler.

I think the biggest point in favor of her stone heart post not being a reference to Lady Stoneheart being in the show is the fact that Lady Stoneheart didn't appear in the show. That kind of trumps any pictures of Lena poking Pedro in the eye for me.
 
2014-06-16 11:41:59 AM

nocturnal001: I wasn't disappointing by not seeing Cat again either. The books haven't shown any solid reason that her character will be all that relevant. What's a few less Frays in the world?


Have they shown she's relevant? Maybe not. But they have 100% telegraphed she will appear. Why else include the scenes about the resurrection of Beric Donderrion? It's Checkov's resurrection; you show it, you need to use it.
 
2014-06-16 11:42:24 AM

Delta1212: Just like how Michiel Huisman couldn't simultaneously appear on Game of Thrones, Orphan Black and Nashville, or how Elyes Gabel couldn't be on concurrently airing seasons of Game of Thrones and The Borgias.


It really depends on the shooting schedules/locations. Huisman was only in the middle part of Orphan Balck this season, and only showed up for a few scenes in GoT, while Fairley has had a substantial role in 24 and has been in all but the first episode. If the shooting schedules didn't line up for whatever reason, 24 is going to take precedence.
 
2014-06-16 11:45:09 AM

Mad_Radhu: Delta1212: Just like how Michiel Huisman couldn't simultaneously appear on Game of Thrones, Orphan Black and Nashville, or how Elyes Gabel couldn't be on concurrently airing seasons of Game of Thrones and The Borgias.

It really depends on the shooting schedules/locations. Huisman was only in the middle part of Orphan Balck this season, and only showed up for a few scenes in GoT, while Fairley has had a substantial role in 24 and has been in all but the first episode. If the shooting schedules didn't line up for whatever reason, 24 is going to take precedence.


True, but again - it's literally just one shot. They could do it in her 24 trailer against a green screen. They needed her to act for a grand total of 2 seconds. Just long enough to pan around a hood and show her face.

There's no way this was the reason they left it out.
 
2014-06-16 11:50:12 AM
I'm amused by the reaction of the book readers.

I really can't wait for that point where the TV show passes up the book series and HBO basically hijacks Fat Boy's story and finishes it for him.
 
2014-06-16 11:51:34 AM
There's a further subtext to the Tryion omission.  In the book he knows that he was loved for himself by Tysha....
 
2014-06-16 11:53:12 AM

DamnYankees: nocturnal001: I wasn't disappointing by not seeing Cat again either. The books haven't shown any solid reason that her character will be all that relevant. What's a few less Frays in the world?

Have they shown she's relevant? Maybe not. But they have 100% telegraphed she will appear. Why else include the scenes about the resurrection of Beric Donderrion? It's Checkov's resurrection; you show it, you need to use it.



Oh I'm sure she will be in there and it's a cool character, but so far it doesn't seem to matter when they do it.
 
2014-06-16 11:54:27 AM
why do they keep leaving out Coldhands?
 
2014-06-16 11:54:31 AM
I would have probably added the extra 10 minutes to episode 9 of Jon Snow's meeting with Mance and the attack by Stannis and then included Lady Stone Heart at the end of episode 10. I was sad about Jolen getting the point. I wanted to be sad for Dany, but her cleavage totally distracted me... mmm Emilia Clarke cleavage.
 
JW
2014-06-16 11:57:11 AM

ShadowKamui: kronicfeld: ShadowKamui: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.

Because it would have changed what exactly?

It was an important moment for both Jaime and Tyrion, sending their character development in two different directions. Tyrion goes into a downward spiral and Jaime continues on his "redemption" path.

Tyrion already has everything to go on a downward spiral
  -Betrayed by the woman he loved and then killed
  -Killed his father
  -Wanted dead by his sister
  -On the run in a strange land far from home

All the problems vs the book are w/ Jamie's character development


Because Tyrion could have had a 'normal' life, and his father took that away from him, even while complaining that Tyrion was low and vile.  It's vastly different than his father trying to stop him from living a life of debauchery or trying to get him to stop associating with whores.  With Tysha, Tyrion could have been happy and not descended into years of self loathing.

Tyrion DID do the right thing, and Tywin took that away from him simply because it wasn't what Tywin wanted.
 
2014-06-16 12:00:06 PM

nocturnal001: DamnYankees: nocturnal001: I wasn't disappointing by not seeing Cat again either. The books haven't shown any solid reason that her character will be all that relevant. What's a few less Frays in the world?

Have they shown she's relevant? Maybe not. But they have 100% telegraphed she will appear. Why else include the scenes about the resurrection of Beric Donderrion? It's Checkov's resurrection; you show it, you need to use it.


Oh I'm sure she will be in there and it's a cool character, but so far it doesn't seem to matter when they do it.


This is why I find the uproar so weird. It's not like they had Joffrey survive his wedding or sent Ned to the Wall. They didn't change anything. They didn't even leave anything out that is going to cause problems. It's a single scene that is disconnected from every storyline currently running and will have absolutely zero consequences coming later except that a bunch of people wanted to see it now.

There is not a single story on this show that is going to be in any way impacted by this not happening at this exact moment. There are a few that will be impacted if it never happens, but that's not even what the outrage is about.

/I can't wait to see the reaction when Jaime and Bronn show up in Dorne next season.
 
JW
2014-06-16 12:00:31 PM

Delta1212: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.

I thought the same thing at first, but on reflection, that's a really weird thing to bring up at that moment. It works ok in the books, but I was imagining the conversation in the show the whole time the scene where it would have appeared was going and thinking "actually, this is going to be a weirdly out-of-left-field conversation." I was still disappointed, but not as much as I'd have thought I'd be.


In the books it's Jaime's reveal, knowing he will never see his brother again, and wanting to come clean about something that has devoured him his whole life.  Part of the atonement process.  They just didn't have time to get through all that stuff.

To me it's the driving force behind Tyrion's motivations.  What could have been really was a what could have been.
 
2014-06-16 12:00:48 PM

JW: ShadowKamui: kronicfeld: ShadowKamui: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.

Because it would have changed what exactly?

It was an important moment for both Jaime and Tyrion, sending their character development in two different directions. Tyrion goes into a downward spiral and Jaime continues on his "redemption" path.

Tyrion already has everything to go on a downward spiral
  -Betrayed by the woman he loved and then killed
  -Killed his father
  -Wanted dead by his sister
  -On the run in a strange land far from home

All the problems vs the book are w/ Jamie's character development

Because Tyrion could have had a 'normal' life, and his father took that away from him, even while complaining that Tyrion was low and vile.  It's vastly different than his father trying to stop him from living a life of debauchery or trying to get him to stop associating with whores.  With Tysha, Tyrion could have been happy and not descended into years of self loathing.

Tyrion DID do the right thing, and Tywin took that away from him simply because it wasn't what Tywin wanted.


And that is any different than Shae how?
 
2014-06-16 12:00:49 PM
I was fine with it at first, but there's an interview today which pretty much says she's cut from the show:

"But to bring back [the actor in question], one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while - and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we're really going to like?" - Link

So, yeah. If they can't figure out what to do with one of the iconic reveals of the series - a character who shows up like twice in the next two books - then this show is boned. Grey Worm and Missandei will be scissoring each other for half a season and Gendry will arrive with an army of dolphins to ferry Dany to Westeros.
 
2014-06-16 12:03:38 PM

Delta1212: JW: Not including the reveal about Tyrion's first wife was far, far worse to me.

I thought the same thing at first, but on reflection, that's a really weird thing to bring up at that moment. It works ok in the books, but I was imagining the conversation in the show the whole time the scene where it would have appeared was going and thinking "actually, this is going to be a weirdly out-of-left-field conversation." I was still disappointed, but not as much as I'd have thought I'd be.


THIS. The TV show has enhanced or dampened some aspects of characters. Inserting an awkward conversation that turns Tyrion against Jaime doesn't fit well, really, particularly not in the context of what they are trying to do in the show. In some cases, you simplify the relationships, Tyrion has enough motivation for the things he is doing, without having him hate his brother, too. Enough plot has been spent on how betrayed he was... by his father. The writers clearly wanted to focus on this. Adding bad blood with Jaime not only doesn't fit well, it's probably one of the subplots that is giving GRRM fits now as he writes new material.

As for missing Lady Stoneheart... it really didn't fit with the theme, which seemed to "send characters on a journey into new territory". You can be excused not keeping a theme and not streamlining the story advancement in a book - you have a much deeper narrative and you are expected to stimulate the readers' imagination. TV doesn't afford as much depth, even in a series (at least not a 10-episode season series).

I think much of the pain is really over the fact that we have to wait another year now for new episodes.
 
2014-06-16 12:03:47 PM

Jaden Smith First of His Name: I was fine with it at first, but there's an interview today which pretty much says she's cut from the show:

"But to bring back [the actor in question], one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while - and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we're really going to like?" - Link

So, yeah. If they can't figure out what to do with one of the iconic reveals of the series - a character who shows up like twice in the next two books - then this show is boned. Grey Worm and Missandei will be scissoring each other for half a season and Gendry will arrive with an army of dolphins to ferry Dany to Westeros.


Or they are saying that they are going to use a different actress.  Sounds like they are talking about the actress not specifically LSH
 
2014-06-16 12:05:44 PM

Jaden Smith First of His Name: I was fine with it at first, but there's an interview today which pretty much says she's cut from the show:

"But to bring back [the actor in question], one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while - and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we're really going to like?" - Link

So, yeah. If they can't figure out what to do with one of the iconic reveals of the series - a character who shows up like twice in the next two books - then this show is boned. Grey Worm and Missandei will be scissoring each other for half a season and Gendry will arrive with an army of dolphins to ferry Dany to Westeros.


That's not from any of the writers. That's from the director of the finale who admits in the next paragraph that he has no idea what is going to happen on the show or whether D&D are planning to include the character in the future.

/In other words, that's just, like, his opinion, man.
 
2014-06-16 12:07:57 PM
I am more upset with the whole Jaime and Cersei relationship.

They have completely bypassed Cersei sleeping around. She has been only with the one cousin (who hasn't been shown since). There's really no real reason for Jaime to dump her at this point (besides  being his sister).
 
2014-06-16 12:09:03 PM

bulok: I am more upset with the whole Jaime and Cersei relationship.

They have completely bypassed Cersei sleeping around. She has been only with the one cousin (who hasn't been shown since). There's really no real reason for Jaime to dump her at this point (besides  being his sister).


And being an evil psycho who tried to have his brother killed. There is that.
 
2014-06-16 12:09:14 PM
Why would someone want a perfect adaptation if they read the books? Wouldn't that spoil the show?
 
2014-06-16 12:11:02 PM

Jaden Smith First of His Name: Grey Worm and Missandei will be scissoring each other for half a season


i.huffpost.com
 
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