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(Some Veteran)   "Sure, let's go back to Iraq. Oh, yes. I'll dig out my uniform and strap on my pistol and ride into battle yet again. Just so long as Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and the rest are in the vanguard"   (stonekettle.com) divider line 158
    More: Hero  
•       •       •

5745 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Jun 2014 at 7:07 AM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



158 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-06-15 10:26:47 AM  

UNC_Samurai: And we've seen combat vererans become the most ardent opponents of war, like George McGovern. Hell, even George HW Bush knew he couldn't go but so far in the Gulf War. Which makes it even more disturbing how McCain is so willing to bang the drum.


Maybe it's a form of hazing ritual. "*I* had to do it and it sucked, so now I get to make YOU do it, whether it makes sense or not!"
 
2014-06-15 10:27:41 AM  

propasaurus: Here's the thing. I don't think anyone actually wants to invade Iraq again. They just want to use it against Obama any way they can. If he doesn't send troops, they'll attack him for being weak and 'losing' the Iraq war. If he does send troops, they'll attack him for being a ruthless bloodthirsty warmongering dictator.


I'd imagine that the various companies which won no-bid DoD contracts the last time around have finally had a chance to tote up their books and now see the profits they made over the last decade, which would be enough to inspire any warm-blooded sociopath to start agitating for war again.

The bonus is if we go back into Iraq, they don't have to make all-new contacts; they can use the ones they already have.
 
2014-06-15 10:27:57 AM  

HeartBurnKid: Great_Milenko: Mrtraveler01:

California is a pretty good example of why a direct democracy is flawed.

People who don't agree with me are a good example of why freedom is flawed,

He's got a point. California proves that people love getting services from the government, but don't like actually paying for it.


The republicans are the same way.

Build a wall along the entire mexican border!

Moar aircraft carriers!

Moar cops!

Bomb bomb bomb Iran!

What, we actually have to pay for this shiat???  When the poors are getting a free ride with their refrigerators?
 
2014-06-15 10:31:13 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-06-15 10:31:51 AM  
The only parts of that I took issue with were when he suggested that the war was in part about killing muslims, and some of his invective and angry language.

Iraq was about as secular a state as you could GET in the middle east, thanks to Saddam patterning himself on Stalin and realising that it was the only way to keep the peace between all the different sects).  There are far more effective places to go if you want to shoot people over religion.  No, I think the war was about getting the guy who pissed off W's daddy, was about handing huge sums of money over to Halliburton, and was about trying to get American companies' hands on all that oil, they just failed badly at that last part.

As for some of the things he said, well, he's obviously angry, and I totally understand that, but when you get angry you say things that might put off a reasonable person who desperately needs to read and understand your argument, which would be a shame because everyone right now needs to understand exactly what the fark is wrong with Iraq and why we just cannot go back there.
 
2014-06-15 10:32:09 AM  

TwoBeersOneCan: Gonz: UNC_Samurai: And we've seen combat vererans become the most ardent opponents of war, like George McGovern.

I'm not comparing myself to McGovern, but as a combat veteran, I'll say this:

War is dumb. War is bad. War is wasteful, in every sense imaginable. We should avoid it.

You could also borrow from General Smedley Butler.

"War is a racket.  It always has been.  The few profit and the many pay.  But there is a way to stop it.  You can't end it by disarmament conferences.  You can't eliminate it with peace parlays at Geneva.  Well-meaning but impractical groups can't wipe it out with resolutions.  It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war."

"The normal profits of a business concern in the United States are six, eight, ten, and sometimes twelve percent.  But war-time profits... ah, that is another matter.  Twenty, sixty, one hundred, three hundred, even eighteen hundred percent - the sky is the limit."

He has lots of good ones.


Fascinating guy. I only learned about the Business Plot about a year ago, for instance. One of these days, I need to get around to reading War is a Racket.
 
2014-06-15 10:35:58 AM  

TwoBeersOneCan: You could also borrow from General Smedley Butler.

"War is a racket. It always has been. The few profit and the many pay. But there is a way to stop it. You can't end it by disarmament conferences. You can't eliminate it with peace parlays at Geneva. Well-meaning but impractical groups can't wipe it out with resolutions. It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war."

"The normal profits of a business concern in the United States are six, eight, ten, and sometimes twelve percent. But war-time profits... ah, that is another matter. Twenty, sixty, one hundred, three hundred, even eighteen hundred percent - the sky is the limit."

He has lots of good ones.


Did he start any of them with "War.  War never changes."?
 
2014-06-15 10:39:39 AM  
I read this in George Carlin's voice. It worked for me.
 
2014-06-15 10:41:59 AM  

BitwiseShift: The Soviet Empire fell. All the glue holding historical gruges failed. Then Yugoslavia, a fictional country invented by the Hapsburgs, violently split apart, with the Russian-backed Serbs claiming they wanted the separate ethnic and language groups back in the band -- terrorizing every one in sight.

The various Northern Mexico cartels lost their leaders, due to heavy US efforts. They terrorized the area as rivals fought to take control in the vacuum.

We go to Iraq, a second time. We destroy the middle class, destroy the infrastructure and not expect that Kurds, Sunnis and Shias just each want their own geography recognized, and that any violence created vacuum is going to want more. And we want it to be the same fictional three-way we believed it to be. That little movie cost trillions in dollars and lots in humanity.

At least we learned how to destroy the middle class. That's working now in the US.
Maybe Iraq will disappear from the map.


Acutally, what Franz Ferdinand proposed was the  Vereinigte Staaten von Groß-Österreich - the United States of Greater Austria.  And federalization of the trans-Danube region may have staved off some of the ethnic issues.  What actually was created toward the end of the war was a union between the Serbs and the Slovenes and Croats.  It was a complete overhaul of their government on the macro level without examining changes needed at the local level, particularly where ethnic minorities were actually the majority.

All that is to say, yes it was fictional, and yes it was all but doomed from its inception, but the Habsburgs weren't involved outside of inspiration from Franz Ferdinand's pipe dream.
 
2014-06-15 10:45:41 AM  

evil saltine: Obama is the worst. I long for the days when our foreign policy was a series of keywords: "evildoers", "liberty", "mushroom cloud". Bush was a guy you could have a beer with.


YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR YOU'RE WITH THE TERRORISTS!

/The Danes call it "nuance".
 
2014-06-15 10:50:34 AM  
YOUR BLOG SU... actually that was pretty awesome.
 
2014-06-15 10:55:55 AM  

doglover: Pure democracy is an inherently bad system. Half of all people are, tautologically, below average. They shouldn't get a direct vote on all issues. That's why we have representatives.

However, by allowing people to campaign for for public office as a career, we wind up with representatives who are really only qualified to run for public office. They're less than useless at best.

The only system that is going to work is a totalitarian dictatorship of the proletariat, where people are forcibly elected to occupation specific offices by their peers and colleges by a series of mandatory elections that do not have ballots, but rather simply ask people for the best in their industry.


So, What....?  Instead we elect them to the House and give them an even more powerful vote on the issues?
/ Just snarking.
 
2014-06-15 11:03:46 AM  

cman: This made me realize something

There is no word that has a definition similar to "we" but implies that they only took part in it indirectly such as cheerleaders or spectators.


Asked and answered. Putting the word "we" in quotes (or finger quotes if speaking) pretty much covers it.
 
2014-06-15 11:07:11 AM  
Nice.
 
2014-06-15 11:10:41 AM  
I hope that by posting this on Facebook I can end any "relationship" with three or more of my "friends".


That was amazing.
 
2014-06-15 11:22:54 AM  

Barricaded Gunman: cman: This made me realize something

There is no word that has a definition similar to "we" but implies that they only took part in it indirectly such as cheerleaders or spectators.

Asked and answered. Putting the word "we" in quotes (or finger quotes if speaking) pretty much covers it.


How about this.  Unless you are actively involved with the subject of the sentence, use the word "they".
 
2014-06-15 11:26:49 AM  
 
2014-06-15 11:35:04 AM  

Great_Milenko: Mrtraveler01:

California is a pretty good example of why a direct democracy is flawed.

People who don't agree with me are a good example of why freedom is flawed,


There is a valid case to be made for not making long-term public policy based on the political hysteria du jour.
 
2014-06-15 11:45:24 AM  
I gather from the article that the author is not in favor of military intervention.
 
2014-06-15 11:48:50 AM  

Laobaojun: In one of Heinlein's books, the system was that for the country to go to war, it had to be approved in a general election.  The kicker was that if you voted for war, your military assignment was marked for you on the ballot.

I am not saying this is the answer, but this business of effete fat-bodies with no flesh in the game deciding that "we" need to go to war is inherently problematic.


Service leads to citizenship.
 
2014-06-15 11:50:01 AM  

Darth Macho: Note that most of these pre-date alts, trolling and Poe's Law and are prime examples of authentic douchebaggery.


Back when being an anonymous asshole on the internet meant something.
 
2014-06-15 11:52:32 AM  
 
2014-06-15 11:53:07 AM  
media.tumblr.com

oops got too excited didn't do the pic thingie right
 
2014-06-15 12:01:25 PM  

EvilEgg: doglover: Pure democracy is an inherently bad system. Half of all people are, tautologically, below average. They shouldn't get a direct vote on all issues. That's why we have representatives.

However, by allowing people to campaign for for public office as a career, we wind up with representatives who are really only qualified to run for public office. They're less than useless at best.

The only system that is going to work is a totalitarian dictatorship of the proletariat, where people are forcibly elected to occupation specific offices by their peers and colleges by a series of mandatory elections that do not have ballots, but rather simply ask people for the best in their industry.

That's not true. Half the people don't necessarily have to be below average. If you have three people with a 100IQ, and one with a 20, average is 80. Most are above average.


the average person doesn't know the difference between median and average :)
 
2014-06-15 12:01:57 PM  
TL:DR

your blog sucks, so bad.

you sound awfully butthurt subby.
 
2014-06-15 12:07:12 PM  

Hobo Jr.: Laobaojun: In one of Heinlein's books, the system was that for the country to go to war, it had to be approved in a general election.  The kicker was that if you voted for war, your military assignment was marked for you on the ballot.

I am not saying this is the answer, but this business of effete fat-bodies with no flesh in the game deciding that "we" need to go to war is inherently problematic.

Service leads to citizenship.


To update Heinlein, today's ballot would have two types: the Democratic ballot would be what Heinlein originally wrote, the Republican ballot would have a prediction of personal profit from the combination tax reduction, arms sales, Halliburton and Carlyle investment, insider hedge fund management, and surveiillance industry rewards.

The Republican ballot would also include a tax free $50,000 thank you coupon for the cost saving of "free speech" appealing directly to the voter instead of enriching price-fixing media outlets.  And a timeline of what to build to accommodate millions of returning unemployed and wounded who will be needing overpriced shelter and usurious loans in an economy characterized by a hugh war deficit and no real new jobs.
 
2014-06-15 12:07:45 PM  

xtech: TL:DR

your blog sucks, so bad.

you sound awfully butthurt subby.


Bless your heart.
 
2014-06-15 12:18:05 PM  

John the Magnificent: Barricaded Gunman: cman: This made me realize something

There is no word that has a definition similar to "we" but implies that they only took part in it indirectly such as cheerleaders or spectators.

Asked and answered. Putting the word "we" in quotes (or finger quotes if speaking) pretty much covers it.

How about this.  Unless you are actively involved with the subject of the sentence, use the word "they".


It does sorta seem like a "Grammar won't let me include myself where I'm not actually included. Damned grammar!' kinda situation to me.
 
2014-06-15 12:30:23 PM  

mofa: HeartBurnKid: He's got a point. California proves that people love getting services from the government, but don't like actually paying for it.

Not sure what you're getting at; we have a budget surplus and voted in legislators who said that we needed to raise taxes.  Is California some sort of failed state?  Is it because we put guacamole on everything? Because that's sort of a running joke -- we don't really put guacamole on everything, but we are tolerant of those who want to, and try to make guacamole available if they want it.


No, California's not a failed state.  Not by a longshot.  We just have a bad habit of voting all kinds of earmarks into the budget via the initiative process, then damn near revolting when Sacramento raises taxes or makes other cuts to pay for it all, to the point we've made it nigh impossible for them to do so.  You notice how we just now finally got things in line now that the Democrats have a supermajority?  That's because that's what it takes for the California budget process to work, with the ways we the people have micromanaged it.

And guacamole is awesome, I put it on everything I can, and I'll not hear another bad word about it.
 
2014-06-15 12:37:04 PM  
God dammed gorgeous.
 
2014-06-15 12:38:10 PM  
Your blog...is awesome!


*wipes away tear*
 
2014-06-15 12:47:44 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Great_Milenko: Mrtraveler01:

California is a pretty good example of why a direct democracy is flawed.

People who don't agree with me are a good example of why freedom is flawed,

He's got a point. California proves that people love getting services from the government, but don't like actually paying for it.


Actually California proves the problem with our democracy at large: we all need services from the government, but the people who have the actual money squeal like stuck little piggie pigs if you even talk about taxation.
 
2014-06-15 12:56:56 PM  

Epicanis: UNC_Samurai: And we've seen combat vererans become the most ardent opponents of war, like George McGovern. Hell, even George HW Bush knew he couldn't go but so far in the Gulf War. Which makes it even more disturbing how McCain is so willing to bang the drum.

Maybe it's a form of hazing ritual. "*I* had to do it and it sucked, so now I get to make YOU do it, whether it makes sense or not!"


That's pretty much the cornerstone of conservative policy. Most of the "underserving poor" arguments and similar discussions boil down to "I had to suffer, YOU have to suffer."
 
2014-06-15 01:00:12 PM  

cman: This made me realize something

There is no word that has a definition similar to "we" but implies that they only took part in it indirectly such as cheerleaders or spectators.


sycophant?
 
2014-06-15 01:03:52 PM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: [img.fark.net image 640x823]


How quaint.

This is what happens when a neocon warhawk gets his hands on that WWII "we're all in this together, and today's keyword is 'conservation'" propaganda poster.

Guess who it usually gets pointed at.

img.fark.net
 
2014-06-15 01:23:26 PM  
"WE?"

We? Should be a pin or T-shirt that every vetran wears from here on out. This wasnt a football game, this was a war. A really really shiatty war.
 
2014-06-15 01:30:36 PM  
It is so nice to find a well written website/blog worthy of bookmarking.
 
2014-06-15 01:35:57 PM  
If you're not in favor of interventions, why join a volunteer force that's done nothing but that for the better part of the last century?

/I you just want to "defend your nation" then simply wait long enough and war will come to you.
 
2014-06-15 01:40:00 PM  
Agreed with every word.

That being said, my secret, dirty little fantasy for this insurgence happening, and now that a carrier group is on the way into the gulf, is for our President to go to a joint session of congress and say the following

"Our military is ready, we know who the enemy is and where they are. Constitutionally only Congress may declare war. If you wish our troops and ships committed, declare war, put in place taxes and revenue to pay for it up front and give me clear and concise goals for our military leaders"

I would be glued to C-SPAN for the ensuing Republican meltdown.
 
2014-06-15 01:48:15 PM  

Darth Macho: Ah, a classic W-era antiwar "web-log" post. For those of you interested, here's how these used to be received back in the day.

http://www.fark.com/comments/316122/Retired-Marine-colonel-has-a-few -q uestions-to-ask-his-commander-in-chief-about-Iraq

Some other choice Fark comments threads. Note that most of these pre-date alts, trolling and Poe's Law and are prime examples of authentic douchebaggery.

http://www.fark.com/comments/47950/Iraq-could-be-real-mastermind-fin an cier
(one of the first Iraq War threads. September 19, 2001)

http://www.fark.com/comments/88327/In-survey-most-Americans-want-Ira q- to-be-next-target

http://www.fark.com/comments/223826/How-a-War-With-Iraq-Will-Change- Wo rld

http://www.fark.com/comments/268963/The-case-against-war-with-Iraq

http://www.fark.com/comments/288064/Colin-Powell-calls-for-evidence- be fore-Iraq-strikes

http://www.fark.com/comments/349764/UN-passes-resolution-on-Iraq-wea po ns-inspections

And here's a big one. Over 500 comments.
http://www.fark.com/comments/474538/Pentagon-reports-US-ground-force s- have-entered-Iraq-no-link


Thats a whole lot of Derp before there was Derp. Some choice selections.

fb-
2001-12-21 09:10:14 AM  
I want the terrorist hugger training camps and ultra-leftist colleges attacked first. We need to fight the terrorists training camps in this country first.



This one seems particularly poignant now.
Warchild [TotalFark]
2002-09-02 05:49:41 AM  
Bullshiat! Now is the time to take care of that prick, so that in another ten years we aren't looking back saying "we should have finished the job ten years ago" like we are now.


scraping-fetus-off-the-wheel
2002-11-08 10:33:25 AM  
We'll invade in January or February.
Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.


Rudezombie
2003-03-20 01:34:58 PM  
Damn, they're not messin around. Well, I guess we can be thankful this is going quickly.


RatBear
2003-03-20 01:37:06 PM  
After Iraq, are we gonna go northwest and take out France? It'd be the best thing to do. They've already surrendered


mddude
2003-03-20 01:37:48 PM  
GO KICK THEIR ASSES!!! I wish I was there like I was 12 years ago. I left behind a shoe I said I was going to pick up on the way back, but forgot.

    
Evil_Urna
2003-03-20 01:39:16 PM  
Woo-Hoo time to get my kill on



And I think, for the ultimate in hyperbole spitting armchair generals...
I_Can't_Believe_It's_Not_Smegma
2002-11-08 10:36:47 AM  
nuke em
 
2014-06-15 01:48:28 PM  

Via Infinito: starsrift: Naomi Rivkis (for you to ctrl-f) has an interesting comment on the dude's site.

Holy crap wow. Yeah she made a great point.

Thanks for that. I usually skip the comments.


Yep. She nailed it too.
 
2014-06-15 01:53:04 PM  

Will-Mun: Darth Macho: Ah, a classic W-era antiwar "web-log" post. For those of you interested, here's how these used to be received back in the day.

http://www.fark.com/comments/316122/Retired-Marine-colonel-has-a-few -q uestions-to-ask-his-commander-in-chief-about-Iraq

Some other choice Fark comments threads. Note that most of these pre-date alts, trolling and Poe's Law and are prime examples of authentic douchebaggery.

http://www.fark.com/comments/47950/Iraq-could-be-real-mastermind-fin an cier
(one of the first Iraq War threads. September 19, 2001)

http://www.fark.com/comments/88327/In-survey-most-Americans-want-Ira q- to-be-next-target

http://www.fark.com/comments/223826/How-a-War-With-Iraq-Will-Change- Wo rld

http://www.fark.com/comments/268963/The-case-against-war-with-Iraq

http://www.fark.com/comments/288064/Colin-Powell-calls-for-evidence- be fore-Iraq-strikes

http://www.fark.com/comments/349764/UN-passes-resolution-on-Iraq-wea po ns-inspections

And here's a big one. Over 500 comments.
http://www.fark.com/comments/474538/Pentagon-reports-US-ground-force s- have-entered-Iraq-no-link

Thats a whole lot of Derp before there was Derp. Some choice selections.

fb-
2001-12-21 09:10:14 AM  
I want the terrorist hugger training camps and ultra-leftist colleges attacked first. We need to fight the terrorists training camps in this country first.


This one seems particularly poignant now.
Warchild [TotalFark]
2002-09-02 05:49:41 AM  
Bullshiat! Now is the time to take care of that prick, so that in another ten years we aren't looking back saying "we should have finished the job ten years ago" like we are now.


scraping-fetus-off-the-wheel
2002-11-08 10:33:25 AM  
We'll invade in January or February.
Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.


Rudezombie
2003-03-20 01:34:58 PM  
Damn, they're not messin around. Well, I guess we can be thankful this is going quickly.


RatBear
2003-03-20 01:37:06 PM  
After Iraq, are we gonna go northwest and take out France? It'd be the best thing to do. They've already surrendered


mddude
2003-03-20 01:37:48 PM  
GO KICK THEIR ASSES!!! I wish I was there like I was 12 years ago. I left behind a shoe I said I was going to pick up on the way back, but forgot.

    
Evil_Urna
2003-03-20 01:39:16 PM  
Woo-Hoo time to get my kill on


And I think, for the ultimate in hyperbole spitting armchair generals...
I_Can't_Believe_It's_Not_Smegma
2002-11-08 10:36:47 AM  
nuke em


I recognize at least 3 of those handles.
 
2014-06-15 01:54:53 PM  
Yay! I always wanted a stalker!
 
2014-06-15 01:58:14 PM  

xtech: TL:DR

your blog sucks, so bad.

you sound awfully butthurt subby.


I always wondered if Dick Cheney had a personal fluffer.  I hope he pays you well.
 
2014-06-15 02:02:05 PM  

Warchild: Yay! I always wanted a stalker!


Well, ten years has come and passed. How'd "we" do in taking care of that prick?
 
2014-06-15 02:03:24 PM  

Darth Macho: Ah, a classic W-era antiwar "web-log" post. For those of you interested, here's how these used to be received back in the day.

http://www.fark.com/comments/316122/Retired-Marine-colonel-has-a-few -q uestions-to-ask-his-commander-in-chief-about-Iraq

Some other choice Fark comments threads. Note that most of these pre-date alts, trolling and Poe's Law and are prime examples of authentic douchebaggery.

http://www.fark.com/comments/47950/Iraq-could-be-real-mastermind-fin an cier
(one of the first Iraq War threads. September 19, 2001)

http://www.fark.com/comments/88327/In-survey-most-Americans-want-Ira q- to-be-next-target

http://www.fark.com/comments/223826/How-a-War-With-Iraq-Will-Change- Wo rld

http://www.fark.com/comments/268963/The-case-against-war-with-Iraq

http://www.fark.com/comments/288064/Colin-Powell-calls-for-evidence- be fore-Iraq-strikes

http://www.fark.com/comments/349764/UN-passes-resolution-on-Iraq-wea po ns-inspections

And here's a big one. Over 500 comments.
http://www.fark.com/comments/474538/Pentagon-reports-US-ground-force s- have-entered-Iraq-no-link


Some good finds there. I was pretty certain I remembered Colin Powell briefly being the voice of reason before he fell in line and became part of the problem. Very interesting, the comments in those threads.
 
2014-06-15 02:03:45 PM  

Will-Mun: Well, ten years has come and passed. How'd "we" do in taking care of that prick?


Well, he's not around, is he?

A lot of things can change in twelve years. I even voted for Obama.
 
2014-06-15 02:05:27 PM  
I was vehemently opposed to invading Iraq back when that was still just a set of talking points. Even more so when the UN weapons inspectors found nothing. Once we invaded...we found exactly what they told us we were going to find.

fark neocons. fark W. They're profiteering war criminals.
 
2014-06-15 02:09:28 PM  

Warchild: Will-Mun: Well, ten years has come and passed. How'd "we" do in taking care of that prick?

Well, he's not around, is he?

A lot of things can change in twelve years. I even voted for Obama.


Well that's good to hear. Does that mean your views on the Bush Wars also changed? I didn't mean to pick on you. I'm very aware that back then America was VERY raw emotionally and a lot of people who would otherwise balk at the thought were calling for someone's, ANYONES, blood.

Your comment just struck me as very distinct. Ten years after the invasion... and it seems very little got taken care of.
 
2014-06-15 02:12:33 PM  

Will-Mun: Does that mean your views on the Bush Wars also changed?


Absolutely. Hell, I'll man up and say I was dead wrong.

Will-Mun: I didn't mean to pick on you.


No problemo.
 
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