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(Japan Times)   Japan feels envious of Vietnam as role model, mostly over how Vietnamese stand up to Chinese provocation over territorial claims while Japanese hesitate to confront China   (japantimes.co.jp) divider line 28
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593 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Jun 2014 at 5:15 AM (26 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-15 02:08:33 AM  
China's hegemonic designs are manifest in a strategy of 1-on-1, big-guy-on-little-guy displays of leverage.  It'll be interesting to see if the rest of Asia can unite (however loosely) around a common goal of and for balance.

Unfortunately, that's probably as likely as everyone getting over their hatred of Japan.
 
2014-06-15 05:26:25 AM  
Go ahead China, invade Japan. It's not like there aren't any US troops and bases right there.
 
2014-06-15 05:26:55 AM  

doyner: China's hegemonic designs are manifest in a strategy of 1-on-1, big-guy-on-little-guy displays of leverage.  It'll be interesting to see if the rest of Asia can unite (however loosely) around a common goal of and for balance.

Unfortunately, that's probably as likely as everyone getting over their hatred of Japan.


Or the Communism.

Half of North Korea's problems come from their leadership. But aside from the language barrier, they're a lot less insane than some of the people we have in American in elected spots. No one in North Korea thinks wealth will trickle down, for example. They win the intelligence test.

Plus a plethora of Cheetos would do more damage to their military capabilities than a lack of bullets. They're China's Israel. A guard dog to be kept in spiked collars and fed just often enough they have the energy to be a threat. Much like a guard dog, you'll get more accomplished making them fat and lazy than hitting them with a stick.
 
2014-06-15 05:31:21 AM  
or Japan, Tamogami suggests, there are lessons to be learned from Vietnam's example.

One of them: DON'T BE AN ISLAND.
 
2014-06-15 05:44:23 AM  
Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?
 
2014-06-15 05:46:33 AM  

doglover: Plus a plethora of Cheetos would do more damage to their military capabilities than a lack of bullets.


At first I thought this was some kind of new racial slur I missed reading up on.
 
2014-06-15 05:49:05 AM  

NEDM: Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?


That and to this day deny that the Rape of Nankin ever happened or if it did it was only a couple hundred deaths, not hundreds of thousands.,
 
2014-06-15 06:06:17 AM  

doyner: China's hegemonic designs are manifest in a strategy of 1-on-1, big-guy-on-little-guy displays of leverage.  It'll be interesting to see if the rest of Asia can unite (however loosely) around a common goal of and for balance.

Unfortunately, that's probably as likely as everyone getting over their hatred of Japan.


"The only thing worse than fighting with allies is fighting without them"

It will probably be along the lines of WWII Soviet-American Relations. We didn't formally align with the Soviets, the Russians aligned with the British in the Anglo-Soviet Agreement in July 1941, but never signed any such document with the Russians - it was sort of "we are allies but only because the transitive property of algebra says so". In this case we will play the role of the United Kingdom, where we have a formal document that says we are allies with Japan (Treat of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan), South Korea (Mutual Defense Treaty of 1953), The Philippines(Mutual Defense Treaty Between the Republic of the Philippines and the United States of America), Australia and New Zealand (Australia, New Zealand, United States Security Treaty). 

So while they may not have mutual defense treaties with each other (as far as I know Australia and New Zealand probably do given their relationship in the Commonwealth of Nations) that doesn't mean that there isn't a loose coalition in the pacific already, that is getting stronger as the years roll on and everyone starts a new pacific arms race*. In fact thanks to china we are making gaining more ground in the pacific as people look for a "big brother", there are various examples of this such as the Subic Bay/Clark Air Base deal with the Philippines (we had a base there since 1899 but closed it in 1991 before turning it over to the Philippines - they now want us back provided we upgrade the military/civilian facilities at those places for them**), talks with Vietnam regarding the use of Cam Ranh Bay (they want a deal similar to the Philippines), New Zealand allowing US warships back into their ports via the Wellington Declaration***, etc.

I would find the official release regarding Panetta's visit to Vietnam and the beginning of talks regarding Cam Ranh Bay usages, but the only article I can find on it is from yahoo and I will damned if I link to yahoo. What will be really interesting is if the Chinese boogie man goes poof, and we then have every pacific nation courting US opinion in delegating territorial waters.


*http://www.defence.gov.au/dio/documents/DET_13.pdf
**http://thehill.com/policy/defense/231257-philippines-re-opens-mili tary -bases-to-us-forces-
***http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/11/150401.htm
 
2014-06-15 07:05:37 AM  

Almost Everybody Poops: NEDM: Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?

That and to this day deny that the Rape of Nankin ever happened or if it did it was only a couple hundred deaths, not hundreds of thousands.,


and not that they ever used bio-weapons (the effects that can still be found) on any of the people

no   no reason at all that there might be a grudge
 
2014-06-15 09:25:56 AM  
Did someone say Vietnamese stand up?

www.seducingwithstyle.com
 
2014-06-15 09:48:55 AM  

doglover: Half of North Korea's problems come from their leadership. But aside from the language barrier, they're a lot less insane than some of the people we have in American in elected spots. No one in North Korea thinks wealth will trickle down, for example. They win the intelligence test.


Um.  Trickle down economics is pretty retarded and all, but the shiat North Koreans believe is out of this world.  I saw a NatGeo documentary on NK, and they found that the schools were teaching people that 1) Stalin was still alive, 2) that Kim il-Sung is a god and that all other nations adore him, 3) that Americans routinely eat their own children and are in a perpetual state of civil war between the different races, 4) that Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un don't actually use the bathroom (yes, that's a real thing according to NK defectors and not just from that new Franco/Rogen movie).

People in NK are fed the most unbelievable garbage, and they believe it because they have no other source of information.  Now, you could argue that that's more forgivable, because our Fox News viewers in America DO have access to good information and choose to ignore it.  But even Fox is more truthful than the KCNA.
 
2014-06-15 10:04:46 AM  

Almost Everybody Poops: NEDM: Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?

That and to this day deny that the Rape of Nankin ever happened or if it did it was only a couple hundred deaths, not hundreds of thousands.,


It's funny.  Japan wants to emulate Vietnam standing up to the bully China.  They don't realize that THEY are the bully, and China is standing up to them.
 
2014-06-15 10:05:06 AM  

doyner: China's hegemonic designs are manifest in a strategy of 1-on-1, big-guy-on-little-guy displays of leverage.  It'll be interesting to see if the rest of Asia can unite (however loosely) around a common goal of and for balance.

Unfortunately, that's probably as likely as everyone getting over their hatred of Japan.


China's hegemonic designs go back hundreds of years to the days when it appointed kings in surrounding countries in exchange for tribute. The Qing lost that privilege to Japan and the West, and China has never forgiven them for it (particularly Japan). Of course, the Chinese people are rightly pissed off about Japan atrocities, but there's more to it than that. The Chinese see East Asia as theirs. They are claiming it back after a 100 year (or so) hiatus.
 
2014-06-15 10:08:51 AM  
NEDM:

It's funny.  Japan wants to emulate Vietnam standing up to the bully China.  They don't realize that THEY are the bully, and China is standing up to them.

They were. They're not now.

The funny thing is that the Japanese PM Abe is keen to provoke China into more signs of aggression in order to help him overturn Article 9 of the Japanese constitution (the Japanese non-aggression clause). The thinking in his party goes that if China shows enough aggression towards Japan, the Japanese will see the need for a proper military, instead of relying mostly on the USA (who may not help Japan when the push comes to the shove). It's a funny situation. China is flexing its muscles, and the Japanese government is happy about it.
 
2014-06-15 10:15:08 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: People in NK are fed the most unbelievable garbage, and they say they believe it because they have no other source of information. their families will be imprisoned if they do otherwise.


FTFY.

Haven't you ever seen filmmakers go to North Korea and try to interview people? Those long pauses and meaningful looks when they're knocked off script?
 
2014-06-15 10:46:34 AM  

No Catchy Nickname: They were. They're not now.


Once a bully always a bully in the eyes of their victims.  What Japan did to the rest of Asia from the end of isolationism during the Meiji Restoration until 1945 engendered a lot of hate, hate that's not going to start going away until the people who lived through it are all dead.

That Abe is trying to use China's standing up to them as a justification to rearm does not help such feelings.
 
2014-06-15 10:57:10 AM  

NEDM: Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?


China has invaded Vietnam multiple times with the same result. They end up get driven out by the peasants.
 
2014-06-15 11:02:44 AM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: NEDM: Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?

China has invaded Vietnam multiple times with the same result. They end up get driven out by the peasants.


After variable periods of occupation, yes.  It's why the Vietnamese don't like the Chinese, to say the very least.
 
2014-06-15 11:03:56 AM  

doyner: China's hegemonic designs are manifest in a strategy of 1-on-1, big-guy-on-little-guy displays of leverage.  It'll be interesting to see if the rest of Asia can unite (however loosely) around a common goal of and for balance.

Unfortunately, that's probably as likely as everyone getting over their hatred of Japan.


The best counter balance to China would be India. A large democracy with a vibrant economy. With an increase to the size of thier military and some technology gifts from the USA they could be are best ally in Asia.
 
2014-06-15 11:12:39 AM  

NEDM: No Catchy Nickname: They were. They're not now.

Once a bully always a bully in the eyes of their victims.  What Japan did to the rest of Asia from the end of isolationism during the Meiji Restoration until 1945 engendered a lot of hate, hate that's not going to start going away until the people who lived through it are all dead.

That Abe is trying to use China's standing up to them as a justification to rearm does not help such feelings.


Do you get paid 50 cents for your posts?  Japan isn't bullying China.  What an absurd statement.  China is picking a fight nearly all its neighbors and trying to bully them into accepting it as the dominant power.
 
2014-06-15 11:21:36 AM  

Gergesa: NEDM: No Catchy Nickname: They were. They're not now.

Once a bully always a bully in the eyes of their victims.  What Japan did to the rest of Asia from the end of isolationism during the Meiji Restoration until 1945 engendered a lot of hate, hate that's not going to start going away until the people who lived through it are all dead.

That Abe is trying to use China's standing up to them as a justification to rearm does not help such feelings.

Do you get paid 50 cents for your posts?  Japan isn't bullying China.  What an absurd statement.  China is picking a fight nearly all its neighbors and trying to bully them into accepting it as the dominant power.


It's China that's throwing it's weight around. Its the reason India, Japan, and Vietnam among others are beefing up thier navies
 
2014-06-15 12:35:21 PM  

No Catchy Nickname: doyner: China's hegemonic designs are manifest in a strategy of 1-on-1, big-guy-on-little-guy displays of leverage.  It'll be interesting to see if the rest of Asia can unite (however loosely) around a common goal of and for balance.

Unfortunately, that's probably as likely as everyone getting over their hatred of Japan.

China's hegemonic designs go back hundreds of years to the days when it appointed kings in surrounding countries in exchange for tribute. The Qing lost that privilege to Japan and the West, and China has never forgiven them for it (particularly Japan). Of course, the Chinese people are rightly pissed off about Japan atrocities, but there's more to it than that. The Chinese see East Asia as theirs. They are claiming it back after a 100 year (or so) hiatus.


In some ways, longer than a 100 years. China's been under foreign occupation or in chaos for much of the past 1,000 years, with just the Ming Dynasty as an exception. It's always attempted to take the hegemonic route simply due to location and population, but this has often been under the control of a foreign force.

Now that China's self-governing (read: Han-governed), they are eager to make up for lost time.

As for Japan, there's actually more awareness over World War 2 than media here suggests. While there are still too many school textbooks that gloss over or ignore the Rape of Nanking, the brutality of the occupation of Korea, Unit 731, etc., there are others that actually confront these issues. NHK even ran a piece on some of the atrocities committed in China several years ago. There's still a long way to go, however.
 
2014-06-15 01:32:13 PM  

doglover: HMS_Blinkin: People in NK are fed the most unbelievable garbage, and they say they believe it because they have no other source of information. their families will be imprisoned if they do otherwise.

FTFY.

Haven't you ever seen filmmakers go to North Korea and try to interview people? Those long pauses and meaningful looks when they're knocked off script?


I'm talking about defectors, speaking in South Korea with no fear of reprisals, honestly admitting that they believed what they were being fed.  How would they know better?  My point is this: North Korean ignorance is the result of circumstance, Republican ignorance is the result of choice.
 
2014-06-15 02:47:43 PM  

NEDM: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: NEDM: Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?

China has invaded Vietnam multiple times with the same result. They end up get driven out by the peasants.

After variable periods of occupation, yes.  It's why the Vietnamese don't like the Chinese, to say the very least.


 It's also not a coincidence that Vietnam normalized relations with the US right after the breakup of the Soviet Union. They don't trust us but they really don't trust China and with the Soviets out of the way we were the next best option. Or actually, the original option, the only reason they buddied with the Soviets to begin with was because the US wasn't interested.
 
2014-06-15 07:16:41 PM  
optional:

In some ways, longer than a 100 years. China's been under foreign occupation or in chaos for much of the past 1,000 years, with just the Ming Dynasty as an exception. It's always attempted to take the hegemonic route simply due to location and population, but this has often been under the control of a foreign force.


True, if you count the Jurchen/Manchu takeover as foreign occupation. They weren't Han, and I believe that in the Sinocentric world view they were seen as 夷 not 華.
 
2014-06-15 10:42:28 PM  
The Vietnamese are none-too-happy about China's antics. The uncertainty is hurting their economy actually a lot. My Viet friend is in the tourism business, and it's way down because China.
 
2014-06-15 10:50:53 PM  

No Catchy Nickname: NEDM:

It's funny.  Japan wants to emulate Vietnam standing up to the bully China.  They don't realize that THEY are the bully, and China is standing up to them.

They were. They're not now.

The funny thing is that the Japanese PM Abe is keen to provoke China into more signs of aggression in order to help him overturn Article 9 of the Japanese constitution (the Japanese non-aggression clause). The thinking in his party goes that if China shows enough aggression towards Japan, the Japanese will see the need for a proper military, instead of relying mostly on the USA (who may not help Japan when the push comes to the shove). It's a funny situation. China is flexing its muscles, and the Japanese government is happy about it.


The situation in Ukraine is all the proof Japan needs to know where america stands when it comes to deciding between a weak treaty partner and an important Frenemy
 
2014-06-15 11:31:52 PM  

NEDM: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: NEDM: Maybe it's because unlike Japan, Vietnam was invaded and conquered by China several times over the past 3 millenia.  Maybe that's why they have the nerve to stand up to China.  I mean, it's not like they tried to conquer China and kill as many Chinese as possible.  Right, Japan?

China has invaded Vietnam multiple times with the same result. They end up get driven out by the peasants.

After variable periods of occupation, yes.  It's why the Vietnamese don't like the Chinese, to say the very least.


Had America understood this fact, we would have saved ourselves much grief and death in the 1960's and 70's. There was never a chance in hell that Vietnam was going to let itself be governed from Beijing, no matter how Communist Ho Chi Minh was feeling at the time. Ho once said, when someone asked why he was asking the Americans rather than the Chinese for help in kicking out the French before WWII, "The last time we asked the Chinese for help, they stayed for 1000 years! I would rather smell American sh*t for five years, than Chinese sh*t for a thousand!"
 
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