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(Huffington Post)   American Catholic bishops decide they ain't listening to no socialist, even if he IS the freaking Pope   (huffingtonpost.com ) divider line
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12327 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2014 at 6:01 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-12 09:50:46 PM  
This one should have been titled: Subby confuses Sad tag for Heroes tag.
 
2014-06-12 09:51:28 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: GHOSTBUSTERS!

[tattoospedia.com image 348x346]


s27.postimg.org
 
2014-06-12 09:55:31 PM  

R.A.Danny: stan unusual: Darth_Lukecash: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Actually, historically speaking, until the 20th century, a fetus wasn't human until it was born. The soul didn't enter until the quickening. (First breath, cry)

It was doctors who discovered that children was far more biologically fare more advanced in development than first thought.

St Thomas Aquinas argued that ensoulment occurred at quickening which was when movement in the womb could be detected, not at drawing breath.

Which isn't current dogma. Bot that the Church should be dictating law, but if the followers believe, they should be loathe to break the rules.


Abortion was fine & dandy to The Church until someone with bad eyesight, a new microscope, and a sperm sample thought he saw little men (homunculi) in those sperms.
 
2014-06-12 10:05:11 PM  

Felgraf: xkillyourfacex: Liberals really want the pope to be something he is not.

He opposes homosexuality. He opposes abortion.
Don't fool yourselves.

No, I'm not fooling myself.

But he also pointed out (rightly) that the New Testament bible talked about social justice, and aiding the poor, waaaaayyyy farking more than it talked about Abortion, or gay people. A LOT more.


FTFY

Just sayin'.
 
2014-06-12 10:11:54 PM  

FormlessOne: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Good luck with that. This isn't about religion - it's about power. The Catholics

Bishopsin the United States are firmly welded to the Republican right, and they know, full well, that religious & political power march hand in hand.


Out past the altar rail, the politics are far less uniform.
 
2014-06-12 10:19:08 PM  

stan unusual: FormlessOne: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Good luck with that. This isn't about religion - it's about power. The CatholicsBishopsin the United States are firmly welded to the Republican right, and they know, full well, that religious & political power march hand in hand.


Out past the altar rail, the politics are far less uniform.


Really? Looked like a fairly uniform crowd in that room - they're even dressed the same. I don't care how far the flock wanders from the altar - if the asshole behind it is preaching hate, and the flock still shows up, how much more am I supposed to respect the flock compared to the shepherd?
 
2014-06-12 10:19:46 PM  
It's all about money and resources.

If you're already stretched thin with few priests and many churches, the last thing you want is more demand for counseling time. You need to avoid any issue like abortion or homosexuality because the number of hours it takes to help the individual person deal with personal stuff takes too much damn time.

This is also why priests don't take up coaching cricket teams for Catholic schools in Iowa, or hand out scissors to the track team.
 
2014-06-12 10:20:25 PM  
New Pope == Bestest Pope ever. American Bishops love the hate. He seems to be the real deal. We can gripe about abortion, but we notice that the biggest problem is that abortion occurs in the poorest areas. So how about we resolve the problem of people being poor instead of hating on abortion. Focus on the problem, not the symptom. Franky gets it.
 
2014-06-12 10:31:17 PM  

nucrash: New Pope == Bestest Pope ever. American Bishops love the hate. He seems to be the real deal. We can gripe about abortion, but we notice that the biggest problem is that abortion occurs in the poorest areas. So how about we resolve the problem of people being poor instead of hating on abortion. Focus on the problem, not the symptom. Franky gets it.


..which means, of course, that it won't be long before Frankie gets it. There's too much power and wealth to be had preaching prosperity gospel, raping kids, and buying off politicians to mess about with that "peace, love, hope, and charity" malarkey, and being ordered away from their opulent homes, comely "assistants", day care stables, and simpering sycophants will, eventually, anger one of them enough to encourage a "happy accident" involving Frankie and some wannabe martyr.

Here's to hoping that Pope Francis actually continues on his quest towards the light, and drags a kicking & screaming corrupted Church with him.
 
2014-06-12 10:52:05 PM  
The kiddie fiddler church has no moral authority on anything.
 
2014-06-12 10:56:28 PM  

SilentStrider: Enjoy your excommunication,


Why do that? How about the new Archbishop of Mogadishu.
 
2014-06-12 11:19:49 PM  
Reassign them to Antarctica, or, in this case, assign them to titular diocese. Say, Turkey, or Tyre, or somewhere where they don't actually have a diocese.
 
2014-06-12 11:44:02 PM  

praxis44241: So the church is now run like a governmet now, where the legislative power can c*ck block the executive office?
At what point did these bishops get the right to veto the Pope?


FormlessOne:  Here's to hoping Pope Francis has enough balls to de-frock the assholes over here that are gleefully ignoring his edicts.

The Church doesn't work that way.  It's a common error to think that the Pope has some sort of CEO/general/dictator-like authority, but that's no so.  Granted, even though I'm writing this I don't claim to fully understand it.  Catechism isn't what it was in my parents' day (for better and worse).

When it comes to understanding the Pope's position in the Church vis a vis the other bishops, it helps to think of the phrase "first among equals."  The bishops are all considered to be inheritors of the offices of the Twelve Apostles.  The Pope is just another bishop; what makes his role special is that he's considered to have inherited the bishopric of Peter, the "head" Apostle.

And it's true that he is more than just the nominal head; his seat carries more weight and he does speak for the Church.  But the other bishops don't have to accede to everything he says.  They can disagree and engage in discussion about almost anything.  Even the principle of papal infallibility is misunderstood; it doesn't refer to "everything the Pope says," but has very specific conditions for use, and is rarely invoked.

Unfortunately, under the previous few popes, the American Catholic Church was packed with largely very conservative bishops.  Even a lot of our seminaries were placed under conservative leadership.  What needs to happen is for Pope Francis to stick around for a couple of decades so that he can start installing more open-minded bishops as the current ones retire.

Think of the Pope as Aramis, of The Three Musketeers.  Athos, Porthos, and Aramis are all equals, but the first two tend to defer to Aramis a lot.  Still, if they really disagreed with him about something, there's nothing preventing them from voicing that disagreement and staking out another position.
 
2014-06-12 11:51:09 PM  
to a guide they publish every presidential election year on church teaching, voting and public policy.

Why aren't they taxed?
 
2014-06-13 12:40:40 AM  

SilentStrider: Enjoy your excommunication,


I know *I* will, and I'm not even Catholic.

Maybe they'll split off altogether.  Instead of the Holy Catholic Church, they can call themselves the "Holy Derpolic Church" or something.   Or maybe the "Holy Congregation of Hateful Bigoted Assholes," but that would require more honest than I expect to see from any organized religion.

Also, if they're publishing a guide "on church teaching, voting and public policy," doesn't that violate their tax-exempt status?  I'd love to see the IRS look into that.
 
2014-06-13 12:44:46 AM  

NicoFinn: "There are pillars to the house of the rising sun, and my penis is one of the pillars."


And it's been the ruin of many a poor girl
And God I know I'm one
 
2014-06-13 12:48:23 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: Russ1642: If there is a schism then what remains of the catholic church in America will split into about a million independent sects. Probably better that way as you can only sue an individual sect for molestation.

Even Butt Sects?


Butt Sects is fine.  There's a loophole.
 
2014-06-13 12:59:41 AM  

bunner: C18H27NO3: "The question of abortion will remain as very important," said Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston

Hey Dan, it's not your body so fark off.

You know, about that, guys got a stake in that too or there would BE no fetuses and using it as a political football, ostensibly in the interest of women, is sort of shameful.  You can't make a baby with mayo and a turkey baster, ladies.  Play fair.


'Play fair'? No. Because I don't have to; it's my choice.
 
2014-06-13 01:06:47 AM  

fusillade762: MechaPyx: GleeUnit: No gay rights:  Check
No abortion:  Check
No contraception:  Check

No f*cking little boys:

Bishops: Whoa whoa whoa hold on there! He can't do that. He just did? What's that? Lalalalala I can't hear you.

The Pope: I said...

Bishops: CAN'T HEAR YOU!

They didn't know it was illegal.

Archbishop Robert Carlson testified during a deposition last month that he was not sure in 1984, when he heard accusations of clergy sex abuse as an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, that such relations were against the law.


Ah, yes.  Those two simple words that Steve Martin told us about.
 
2014-06-13 01:18:17 AM  

FormlessOne: stan unusual: FormlessOne: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Good luck with that. This isn't about religion - it's about power. The CatholicsBishopsin the United States are firmly welded to the Republican right, and they know, full well, that religious & political power march hand in hand.


Out past the altar rail, the politics are far less uniform.

Really? Looked like a fairly uniform crowd in that room - they're even dressed the same. I don't care how far the flock wanders from the altar - if the asshole behind it is preaching hate, and the flock still shows up, how much more am I supposed to respect the flock compared to the shepherd?


There are more than on type of Catholic. The "give all your possessions away and follow me" Bleeding Heart Liberal Catholic (of which it looks like the pope is a member and my grandmother was, too), and the "suffering brings you closer to Jesus" aka Bootstrappy Republican Catholic which my parents are.

I'm a recovered Catholic.
 
2014-06-13 01:24:01 AM  
Gay sex with a child = perfectly acceptable. Gay sex with a consenting adult = clutch your pearls, you're going to Hell.
You stay classy, Catholic church.
 
2014-06-13 01:24:42 AM  

Cerebral Ballsy: There are more than on type of Catholic. The "give all your possessions away and follow me" Bleeding Heart Liberal Catholic (of which it looks like the pope is a member and my grandmother was, too), and the "suffering brings you closer to Jesus" aka Bootstrappy Republican Catholic which my parents are.


...and then there are the Jesuits.
 
2014-06-13 01:53:32 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: stan unusual: St Thomas Aquinas argued that ensoulment occurred at quickening ...

... and that there can be only one.


Holy ground, Highlander!
 
2014-06-13 02:41:06 AM  

liam76: if_i_really_have_to: There are some basic required tenets of Roman Catholicism that you cannot access anywhere but through the Church (e.g. confession, holy communion, baptism/confirmation). You either believe the Church's teachings that those things are necessary to correctly follow Christ and ensure your salvation, or you don't.

I think you need to read up more on Catholicism.


Point out where if_i_really_have_to is wrong, please.
 
2014-06-13 03:52:56 AM  

FormlessOne: stan unusual: FormlessOne: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Good luck with that. This isn't about religion - it's about power. The CatholicsBishopsin the United States are firmly welded to the Republican right, and they know, full well, that religious & political power march hand in hand.


Out past the altar rail, the politics are far less uniform.

Really? Looked like a fairly uniform crowd in that room - they're even dressed the same. I don't care how far the flock wanders from the altar - if the asshole behind it is preaching hate, and the flock still shows up, how much more am I supposed to respect the flock compared to the shepherd?


1. The uniform crowd aren't "the other side of the altar rail" but I guess my use of less than concrete language could be the problem or perhaps it is rooted in your presumption that Catholics are a monolithic bloc politically.  They're not.  They mirror the American electorate pretty closely, liberals, moderates, independents and conservatives in basically the same proportions as the country as a whole.
2.  Priests and religious orders are less Republican/Conservative than the Council of Bishops- ask Paul Ryan about the Nuns on the Bus, or read anything about Jesuit universities.
3.  There's no excusing the way the Catholic hierarchy turned a blind eye to, covered up and enabled abuse of kids, but if you're going to damn everyone who belongs to every religion or organization after it is discovered that a member has abused a child- good luck with that.  The RCC and almost every religious organization, both major political parties and many civic groups and more families than anyone wants to admit have done it. More kids have been sexually abused by family members and close acquaintances than have by priests or strangers grabbing kids off playgrounds- but that uncomfortable fact never gets headlines while priests and stranger abductions are sure to.  That doesn't make any abuse of kids okay or any of the offenders less loathsome, but it does mean that if you pretend the problem is limited to the RCC you're uniformed or that your outrage is driven less by the offense than it is by your prejudices.
 
2014-06-13 06:08:50 AM  
So helping people universally, raising up the poorest among us, decrying those who sell in churches - socialist values and also lessons of jesus are what american bishops are against?

sounds about right.

Damn America, you stoopid...
 
2014-06-13 07:10:14 AM  

Cerebral Ballsy: Play fair'? No. Because I don't have to


You just told me everything about you I would ever deed to know.
 
2014-06-13 08:22:23 AM  

Ilmarinen: liam76: if_i_really_have_to: There are some basic required tenets of Roman Catholicism that you cannot access anywhere but through the Church (e.g. confession, holy communion, baptism/confirmation). You either believe the Church's teachings that those things are necessary to correctly follow Christ and ensure your salvation, or you don't.

I think you need to read up more on Catholicism.

Point out where if_i_really_have_to is wrong, please.



Here is a priest breaking it down.
http://www.xt3.com/library/view.php?id=9728

Here is the pope saying doing good is what counts.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-being-an- a theist-is-alright-as-long-as-you-do-good-8629390.html

Or if you like you could read up yourself on Vatican II
Paying attention to this part of the COnstitution of the Church-
The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church

Or you could ask yourself when in modern times the pope has said all non catholics or all catholics who no longer take communion are going to hell, and unless you are aware of that you might want to quesiton why you bought what he said int he first place with no support.
 
2014-06-13 09:10:30 AM  

stan unusual: FormlessOne: stan unusual: FormlessOne: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Good luck with that. This isn't about religion - it's about power. The CatholicsBishopsin the United States are firmly welded to the Republican right, and they know, full well, that religious & political power march hand in hand.


Out past the altar rail, the politics are far less uniform.

Really? Looked like a fairly uniform crowd in that room - they're even dressed the same. I don't care how far the flock wanders from the altar - if the asshole behind it is preaching hate, and the flock still shows up, how much more am I supposed to respect the flock compared to the shepherd?

1. The uniform crowd aren't "the other side of the altar rail" but I guess my use of less than concrete language could be the problem or perhaps it is rooted in your presumption that Catholics are a monolithic bloc politically.  They're not.  They mirror the American electorate pretty closely, liberals, moderates, independents and conservatives in basically the same proportions as the country as a whole.
2.  Priests and religious orders are less Republican/Conservative than the Council of Bishops- ask Paul Ryan about the Nuns on the Bus, or read anything about Jesuit universities.
3.  There's no excusing the way the Catholic hierarchy turned a blind eye to, covered up and enabled abuse of kids, but if you're going to damn everyone who belongs to every religion or organization after it is discovered that a member has abused a child- good luck with that.  The RCC and almost every religious organization, both major political parties and many civic groups and more families than anyone wants to admit have done it. More kids have been sexually abused by family members and close acquaintances than have by priests or strangers grabbing kids off playgrounds- but ...


Plus, if you look at the teachings of the Catholic Church, they are against a lot of what the Republican party supports.  Completely anti-war and anti-death penalty.  Those facts along with the anti-abortion leaning mean they really don't fall in line with any political party.  And while it certainly depends on what Parish you are at, I know more Democrat Catholics than Republican Catholics.  The religion is beholden to a certain political party like many Evangelical religions are.
 
2014-06-13 09:31:04 AM  
Guys in dresses are obsessed with teh ghey?
 
2014-06-13 09:58:28 AM  

limeyfellow: SilentStrider: Enjoy your excommunication,

Why do that? How about the new Archbishop of Mogadishu.


You. I like you.

/welcome to Siberia, Archbishop
 
2014-06-13 10:36:39 AM  
List of people whose own interests would not be served by being Catholic:
- women
- gay people
- people who've had an abortion
- people who have kids (who might be abused by a priest)

So a few childless straight men? That's a pretty small demographic you're shooting for.
 
2014-06-13 12:16:55 PM  

stan unusual: FormlessOne: stan unusual: FormlessOne: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Good luck with that. This isn't about religion - it's about power. The CatholicsBishopsin the United States are firmly welded to the Republican right, and they know, full well, that religious & political power march hand in hand.


Out past the altar rail, the politics are far less uniform.

Really? Looked like a fairly uniform crowd in that room - they're even dressed the same. I don't care how far the flock wanders from the altar - if the asshole behind it is preaching hate, and the flock still shows up, how much more am I supposed to respect the flock compared to the shepherd?

1. The uniform crowd aren't "the other side of the altar rail" but I guess my use of less than concrete language could be the problem or perhaps it is rooted in your presumption that Catholics are a monolithic bloc politically.  They're not.  They mirror the American electorate pretty closely, liberals, moderates, independents and conservatives in basically the same proportions as the country as a whole.
2.  Priests and religious orders are less Republican/Conservative than the Council of Bishops- ask Paul Ryan about the Nuns on the Bus, or read anything about Jesuit universities.
3.  There's no excusing the way the Catholic hierarchy turned a blind eye to, covered up and enabled abuse of kids, but if you're going to damn everyone who belongs to every religion or organization after it is discovered that a member has abused a child- good luck with that.  The RCC and almost every religious organization, both major political parties and many civic groups and more families than anyone wants to admit have done it. More kids have been sexually abused by family members and close acquaintances than have by priests or strangers grabbing kids off playgrounds- but ...


...that's a lot of words for "I missed the point."

1. You're constructing a strawman I didn't provide, because I don't really give a rat's rancid rectum about their politics, nor did I assume a "monolithic bloc." The Church has always cleaved closely to those in power, because those in power will, in return, protect the interests of the Church. The fact that an organization's members have a wide range of personal views means exactly nothing when the organization's actions do not - this is an organization that has basically laid its bets on power, and the whole point of this "affirmation" was to reassure those to whom the organization has backed that they will continue to back them during the 2014 election. If a Democrat came out against abortion, this group would have his or her back just as readily as the Republican, or the Libertarian, or the Independent, that came out against abortion.

The fact that they're doing so in contradiction to the words of their own religion's leader reinforces the point that this is about power. This group knows that the power in question has nothing to do with God, or with the Pope, but with the Congresscritters in their own neighborhoods, and so this group will stick close to those Congresscritters, even at the expense of defying the religion's directives.

2. Again, I don't care about their politics. I care about their actions. Their actions aren't in keeping with the tenets of their faith. Their actions are, however, in keeping with the need to stay close to power. The Church, in this regard, has always cleaved closely to whomever it thought would keep its wealth and power safe - and that's exactly what's happened here. Again, if the Democrats would keep this group in power and conform to this group's interests, this group wouldn't give a rat's rancid rectum about Republicans. This group wants what it wants, and it's willing to back whatever play that gets it what it wants.

3. That reply smacks of apologism. We're not talking "isolated incidents" and "damning a group based on an individual's actions." We're talking about a group that actively colluded to hide the crimes of their members - they acted like any other mafia would act when one of its own was endangered. They moved their pedophiles around from location to location, paying hush money and handing threats to victims and their families. When they could no longer hide the crimes, the group - as a whole - did their best to hide their assets, even as they lied under oath and tried to use PR tactics to further demonize the victims. This same group lobbies hard for further protections, and uses not just the material tools at hand, but also the spiritual tools that they've manufactured over the centuries to maintain a grip on those that they influence.

It's not about their politics. It's about power - politics, like religion, is a means to that end. The fact that, right now, the Republican conservatives are the means to that end does not mean I simply equate "American Catholics" to "Republicans" .
 
2014-06-13 01:44:58 PM  

stan unusual: Darth_Lukecash: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Actually, historically speaking, until the 20th century, a fetus wasn't human until it was born. The soul didn't enter until the quickening. (First breath, cry)

It was doctors who discovered that children was far more biologically fare more advanced in development than first thought.

St Thomas Aquinas argued that ensoulment occurred at quickening which was when movement in the womb could be detected, not at drawing breath.


That too!
 
2014-06-13 06:49:54 PM  

FormlessOne: stan unusual: FormlessOne: stan unusual: FormlessOne: R.A.Danny: Abortion is never not going to be a sin in the Catholic church. Francis never said it shouldn't be. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over it are supposed to be taken down a notch though.

Good luck with that. This isn't about religion - it's about power. The CatholicsBishopsin the United States are firmly welded to the Republican right, and they know, full well, that religious & political power march hand in hand.


Out past the altar rail, the politics are far less uniform.

Really? Looked like a fairly uniform crowd in that room - they're even dressed the same. I don't care how far the flock wanders from the altar - if the asshole behind it is preaching hate, and the flock still shows up, how much more am I supposed to respect the flock compared to the shepherd?

1. The uniform crowd aren't "the other side of the altar rail".... <snip>

that's a lot of words for "I missed the point."

1. You're constructing a strawman I didn't provide, because I don't really give a rat's rancid rectum about their politics, nor did I assume a "monolithic bloc." The Church has always cleaved closely to those in power, because those in power will, in return, protect the interests of the Church. The fact that an organization's members have a wide range of personal views means exactly nothing when the organization's actions do not - this is an organization that has basically laid its bets on power, and the whole point of this "affirmation" was to reassure those to whom the organization has backed that they will continue to back them during the 2014 election. If a Democrat came out against abortion, this group would have his or her back just as readily as the Republican, or the Libertarian, or the Independent, that came out against abortion.

The fact that they're doing so in contradiction to the words of their own religion's leader reinforces the point that this is about power. This group knows that the power in question has nothing to do with God, or with the Pope, but with the Congresscritters in their own neighborhoods, and so this group will stick close to those Congresscritters, even at the expense of defying the religion's directives.

2. Again, I don't care about their politics. I care about their actions. Their actions aren't in keeping with the tenets of their faith. Their actions are, however, in keeping with the need to stay close to power. The Church, in this regard, has always cleaved closely to whomever it thought would keep its wealth and power safe - and that's exactly what's happened here. Again, if the Democrats would keep this group in power and conform to this group's interests, this group wouldn't give a rat's rancid rectum about Republicans. This group wants what it wants, and it's willing to back whatever play that gets it what it wants.

3. That reply smacks of apologism. We're not talking "isolated incidents" and "damning a group based on an individual's actions." We're talking about a group that actively colluded to hide the crimes of their members - they acted like any other mafia would act when one of its own was endangered. They moved their pedophiles around from location to location, paying hush money and handing threats to victims and their families. When they could no longer hide the crimes, the group - as a whole - did their best to hide their assets, even as they lied under oath and tried to use PR tactics to further demonize the victims. This same group lobbies hard for further protections, and uses not just the material tools at hand, but also the spiritual tools that they've manufactured over the centuries to maintain a grip on those that they influence.

It's not about their politics. It's about power - politics, like religion, is a means to that end. The fact that, right now, the Republican conservatives are the means to that end does not mean I simply equate "American Catholics" to "Republicans" .



"The Church has always cleaved closely to those in power.."  Um, no.  "Those in power" in this instance would be those favor legal abortion and birth control which the Conference of Bishops oppose. Now if you were to assert that the Conference of Bishops as a whole was cleaving to those who want to impose their power over women's reproduction and sexuality, or that it was cleaving to those whose politics are anti-democratic and anti-secular, you'd be right.

"The Church  in this regard, has always cleaved closely to whomever it thought would keep its wealth and power safe - and that's exactly what's happened here. "  Tell that to Bishop Oscar Romero.or to the School of the Americas Watch, or the thousands of Catholics involved in the civil rights movement or immigration reform.

How in the fark do you read "There is no excusing the Catholic hierarchy" as apologism?  I didn't explain away or justify the abuse, the cover up, the hiding of assets or perjury in service to any of those things in any way and don't think it is possible to ethically or theologically do so.  I did take issue with your insistence that anyone who remained Catholic is a participant or supporter of those things because there are reasons that someone would choose to remain Catholic aside from promoting or condoning child abuse or whatever political nonsense the Conference of Bishops has cooked up lately.
 
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