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(Deadspin)   High school baseball trick play may or may not have been a balk, but it wasn't called. So enjoy the fun   (deadspin.com) divider line 65
    More: Spiffy, trick play  
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2915 clicks; posted to Sports » on 12 Jun 2014 at 11:43 AM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



65 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-06-12 09:26:42 AM
+1 Cockpunch to the uploader who put the annoying title card up until the exact moment of the play
 
2014-06-12 10:15:37 AM

rocinante721: +1 Cockpunch to the uploader who put the annoying title card up until the exact moment of the play



That.  And it was a balk - but I can see how the ump missed it.
 
2014-06-12 11:11:15 AM
Not a balk. He stepped off the rubber, took a step towards second, and feinted towards second (only a balk if done towards first or third)
 
2014-06-12 11:47:26 AM
Is this considered playing the game the, "right way" ?
 
2014-06-12 11:48:21 AM
I know the next inning, if I was the pitcher, someone would be taking a base.
 
2014-06-12 11:52:41 AM

ArkAngel: Not a balk. He stepped off the rubber, took a step towards second, and feinted towards second (only a balk if done towards first or third)


I thought it was only first, but I agree, this was a legal play.
 
2014-06-12 11:52:42 AM

ArkAngel: Not a balk. He stepped off the rubber, took a step towards second, and feinted towards second (only a balk if done towards first or third)


Re-thinking now that you said that - I thought if you faked to any base it was a balk?  My original thinking was that it was a balk because he was set and then had that little leg flex before spinning...it looked like it was towards the plate.
 
2014-06-12 12:04:37 PM
How dumb is the baserunner?

He didn't start to run until well after the CF would have fielded the errant throw.
 
2014-06-12 12:08:28 PM

MugzyBrown: How dumb is the baserunner?

He didn't start to run until well after the CF would have fielded the errant throw.


My thought as well. He'd have been caught in a rundown even if it hadn't been a fake. The basepaths are no place for indecision, kid.
 
2014-06-12 12:13:41 PM
I don't know if it is a balk, but it is a violation of the rules. You are not allowed to deceive the base runners. So unless he made a move towards home before his spin which would have been a balk, which you really can't tell from the video, this would be more like the hidden ball trick and the runner should have been awarded third.
 
2014-06-12 12:14:00 PM
I would also like to put my two cents in on the horrible nature of the uploader's tweaks to the video
 
2014-06-12 12:16:36 PM

ongbok: You are not allowed to deceive the base runners.


Since when?

Fielders make fake tags, throws, catches all of the time.
 
2014-06-12 12:18:30 PM
No balk.

Quick rule of thumb:  the only time you cannot fake a pick off throw to an occupied base is when you spin on the rubber toward to first.  You must throw it in that case.  However, fake away with everything else.
 
2014-06-12 12:19:47 PM
I vote balk. It's hard to tell which foot moved first, but assuming that he moved his back foot off the rubber first, he did not drop his hands to his sides after disengaging the rubber.
 
2014-06-12 12:21:33 PM
Balkin' Bob Davidson
 
2014-06-12 12:22:46 PM
Not a balk:
8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;
Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off-play. (b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion "wheels" and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.
 
2014-06-12 12:22:47 PM

ArkAngel: Not a balk. He stepped off the rubber, took a step towards second, and feinted towards second (only a balk if done towards first or third)


It's actually ONLY when faking a throw to first.  Rule 8.05(a)

If second and/or third are occupied and the pitcher steps toward them he can do whatever he wants.   Doesn't even need to step off the rubber.  8.05(c)

He can never fake to an unoccupied base. 8.05(d)

So this was not a balk.
 
2014-06-12 12:24:09 PM

Communist_Manifesto: Not a balk:
8.05


*Shakes Fist*
 
2014-06-12 12:27:32 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: Communist_Manifesto: Not a balk:
8.05

*Shakes Fist*


We were only 1 second away from a simulpost! Damn my quick clickin fingers!
 
2014-06-12 12:30:32 PM

ongbok: I don't know if it is a balk, but it is a violation of the rules. You are not allowed to deceive the base runners. So unless he made a move towards home before his spin which would have been a balk, which you really can't tell from the video, this would be more like the hidden ball trick and the runner should have been awarded third.


And that is a fallacy that is repeated by people who don't understand the rules of the game.  Deceive away.  Never in the history of ever has a runner been awarded a base because he was too stupid to realize the pitcher still had the ball.
 
2014-06-12 12:39:18 PM
Does 8.05j not apply?

(j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base;

As far as I can see that is the only possible way it was a balk.
 
2014-06-12 12:50:40 PM
This is the baseball equivalent of a flop. Of course, in baseball, people pretend it's a great play.
 
2014-06-12 12:59:04 PM

IAmRight: This is the baseball equivalent of a flop. Of course, in baseball, people pretend it's a great play.


The baseball equivalent of a flop is pretending to be hit by a pitch or a fielder acting like he caught a ball he trapped.
 
2014-06-12 12:59:09 PM

TonyDanza: Does 8.05j not apply?

(j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base;

As far as I can see that is the only possible way it was a balk.


No that requires the pitcher to stay IN the set position.
 
2014-06-12 01:10:00 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: No that requires the pitcher to stay IN the set position.


Where exactly is that stated?  Not saying you are incorrect, but I don't see anything in the rulebook to indicate that.
 
2014-06-12 01:10:57 PM

MugzyBrown: The baseball equivalent of a flop is pretending to be hit by a pitch or a fielder acting like he caught a ball he trapped.


Yeah I realized after I posted that the significant difference is that one is an attempt to fool the refs; the other is an attempt to fool the other team. Of course, the only other sport where this really exists is in football with the fake spike.
 
2014-06-12 01:11:00 PM

IAmRight: This is the baseball equivalent of a flop. Of course, in baseball, people pretend it's a great play.


This is the baseball equivalent of the QB who runs the "we have the wrong ball, coach!" ploy
 
2014-06-12 01:11:54 PM

HaywoodJablonski: This is the baseball equivalent of the QB who runs the "we have the wrong ball, coach!" ploy


Except in baseball there's no chance the pitcher gets steamrolled for being an ass. Another reason baseball sucks.
 
2014-06-12 01:12:55 PM

Trainspotr: I vote balk. It's hard to tell which foot moved first, but assuming that he moved his back foot off the rubber first, he did not drop his hands to his sides after disengaging the rubber.


i say legal.  in my opinion, he removed his foot from the rubber before moving the other foot.  i don't know about that hands to the sides business.  how could you throw out the baserunner if your hands are at your sides?

/ been a long time since i played or paid attention to baseball.
 
2014-06-12 01:18:57 PM
Where does WARRIORS CODE fit in to all this?
 
2014-06-12 01:19:10 PM

obeymatt: Is this considered playing the game the, "right way" ?


Not by the team that didn't know where the ball was.
 
2014-06-12 01:22:35 PM

MugzyBrown: ongbok: You are not allowed to deceive the base runners.

Since when?

Fielders make fake tags, throws, catches all of the time.


This. An outfielder will act like he's about to catch a fly ball, when in reality it's way over his head. If a runner bites, he might not score when he should have. A catcher fakes a throw to second on a steal attempt, then throws to third for a pickoff attempt. There's a hundred different examples.
 
2014-06-12 01:23:40 PM

HaywoodJablonski: IAmRight: This is the baseball equivalent of a flop. Of course, in baseball, people pretend it's a great play.

This is the baseball equivalent of the QB who runs the "we have the wrong ball, coach!" ploy


It's like those fake punts where the punter jumps up as if the ball sailed over his head, while the upback has the ball.
 
2014-06-12 01:24:15 PM
there must be an unwritten rule about this someplace
 
2014-06-12 01:25:01 PM

TonyDanza: DoBeDoBeDo: No that requires the pitcher to stay IN the set position.

Where exactly is that stated?  Not saying you are incorrect, but I don't see anything in the rulebook to indicate that.


8.05(c) covers a balk when throwing to a base and 8.05(a) covers the throwing of a pitch.   So 8.05(j) is removing the hand except when doing something covered by the other two rules.  Which really limits it to just standing there in the set position.   I mean I guess it covers scratching your ass, adjusting your nuts, etc.   But really it means when you're in the set position you can't drop a hand off the ball.
 
2014-06-12 01:28:03 PM

ChrisDe: MugzyBrown: ongbok: You are not allowed to deceive the base runners.

Since when?

Fielders make fake tags, throws, catches all of the time.

This. An outfielder will act like he's about to catch a fly ball, when in reality it's way over his head. If a runner bites, he might not score when he should have. A catcher fakes a throw to second on a steal attempt, then throws to third for a pickoff attempt. There's a hundred different examples.


There is a difference between that and deceiving them by hiding the ball. If you weren't trying to be contrary you would realize that.
 
2014-06-12 01:29:06 PM

pute kisses like a man: Trainspotr: I vote balk. It's hard to tell which foot moved first, but assuming that he moved his back foot off the rubber first, he did not drop his hands to his sides after disengaging the rubber.

i say legal.  in my opinion, he removed his foot from the rubber before moving the other foot.  i don't know about that hands to the sides business.  how could you throw out the baserunner if your hands are at your sides?

/ been a long time since i played or paid attention to baseball.


On further review, it appears the hands to the sides only applies if the pitcher is in the windup position, not the set position:

Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.


However, in the real-time footage, which is partially obscured by the titles, it isn't obvious that the pitcher comes to a complete stop in the set position before stepping off. I don't know if the pitcher has to come to a complete stop before throwing to a base, though.
 
2014-06-12 01:33:10 PM

IAmRight: HaywoodJablonski: This is the baseball equivalent of the QB who runs the "we have the wrong ball, coach!" ploy

Except in baseball there's no chance the pitcher gets steamrolled for being an ass. Another reason baseball sucks.


He has to come to the plate at some point (at this level).
 
2014-06-12 01:34:11 PM

ongbok: ChrisDe: MugzyBrown: ongbok: You are not allowed to deceive the base runners.

Since when?

Fielders make fake tags, throws, catches all of the time.

This. An outfielder will act like he's about to catch a fly ball, when in reality it's way over his head. If a runner bites, he might not score when he should have. A catcher fakes a throw to second on a steal attempt, then throws to third for a pickoff attempt. There's a hundred different examples.

There is a difference between that and deceiving them by hiding the ball. If you weren't trying to be contrary you would realize that.


Can you cite this rule?
 
2014-06-12 01:38:37 PM

ongbok: ChrisDe: MugzyBrown: ongbok: You are not allowed to deceive the base runners.

Since when?

Fielders make fake tags, throws, catches all of the time.

This. An outfielder will act like he's about to catch a fly ball, when in reality it's way over his head. If a runner bites, he might not score when he should have. A catcher fakes a throw to second on a steal attempt, then throws to third for a pickoff attempt. There's a hundred different examples.

There is a difference between that and deceiving them by hiding the ball. If you weren't trying to be contrary you would realize that.


Wut? There's no rule against the hidden ball trick.Baseball-reference.com says it's been pulled off over 250 times in MLB.
 
2014-06-12 01:44:11 PM

HaywoodJablonski: IAmRight: This is the baseball equivalent of a flop. Of course, in baseball, people pretend it's a great play.

This is the baseball equivalent of the QB who runs the "we have the wrong ball, coach!" ploy


Totally. Every time I see a thread like this I mention how much I hate chickenshiat baseball (I also hate "wrong ball" chickenshiat football) and for some reason the baseball fans go nuts when you dare impeach the sanctified players of Our Holy Game on God's Diamond.

But this isn't athletics, it's theater. It's stupid and anyone playing baseball like this should be embarrassed.
 
2014-06-12 01:45:12 PM

ongbok: . If you weren't trying to be contrary you would realize that.


I find that most common circumstance of a person "trying to be contrary" is when the other person is wrong.
 
2014-06-12 01:49:21 PM

IAmRight: HaywoodJablonski: This is the baseball equivalent of the QB who runs the "we have the wrong ball, coach!" ploy

Except in baseball there's no chance the pitcher gets steamrolled for being an ass. Another reason baseball sucks.


No he gets a fastball thrown at his head.

/Unless it is at an American League park.
//That is not a reason as to why the DH is stupid.
///But don't get me wrong the DH is stupid.
 
2014-06-12 01:50:04 PM

TonyDanza: ongbok: . If you weren't trying to be contrary you would realize that.

I find that most common circumstance of a person "trying to be contrary" is when the other person is wrong.


troof
 
2014-06-12 01:54:27 PM

Trainspotr: pute kisses like a man: Trainspotr: I vote balk. It's hard to tell which foot moved first, but assuming that he moved his back foot off the rubber first, he did not drop his hands to his sides after disengaging the rubber.

i say legal.  in my opinion, he removed his foot from the rubber before moving the other foot.  i don't know about that hands to the sides business.  how could you throw out the baserunner if your hands are at your sides?

/ been a long time since i played or paid attention to baseball.

On further review, it appears the hands to the sides only applies if the pitcher is in the windup position, not the set position:

Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.

However, in the real-time footage, which is partially obscured by the titles, it isn't obvious that the pitcher comes to a complete stop in the set position before stepping off. I don't know if the pitcher has to come to a complete stop before throwing to a base, though.


I believe he has to come set 1st before he can throw to a base.
 
2014-06-12 01:55:00 PM

CipollinaFan: No he gets a fastball thrown at his head.


That's the equivalent punishment of, when he gets tackled, the OTHER team gets a 15-yard penalty and the guy who tackled him gets ejected.
 
2014-06-12 01:56:20 PM

jst3p: ongbok: ChrisDe: MugzyBrown: ongbok: You are not allowed to deceive the base runners.

Since when?

Fielders make fake tags, throws, catches all of the time.

This. An outfielder will act like he's about to catch a fly ball, when in reality it's way over his head. If a runner bites, he might not score when he should have. A catcher fakes a throw to second on a steal attempt, then throws to third for a pickoff attempt. There's a hundred different examples.

There is a difference between that and deceiving them by hiding the ball. If you weren't trying to be contrary you would realize that.

Can you cite this rule?


Ok, I guess you can hide the ball as long as the pitcher isn't anywhere near the mound or pitching rubber depending on the level of baseball
 
2014-06-12 02:02:44 PM
Might need to see video of him pitching normally out of the stretch for comparison, but by flexing his back knee before he turned towards second, might that be faking or starting/stopping his delivery home?
 
2014-06-12 02:05:18 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: Which really limits it to just standing there in the set position. I mean I guess it covers scratching your ass, adjusting your nuts, etc. But really it means when you're in the set position you can't drop a hand off the ball.


While that is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule, and probably what they were going for, that's not how it's written.  It gives 2 legal options to get the ball out of your hand (pitch, or throw to a base) which he did neither of.  But your interpretation is more than likely the one that is in practical use, even if it is not actually to the letter of the law.
 
2014-06-12 02:12:20 PM

usttsdw: I believe he has to come set 1st before he can throw to a base.


Only time it matters if you come set is when actually delivering a pitch while runners are on.  Throwing to bases have no such set position rule.
 
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