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(Daily Mail)   Pop quiz hotshot. Armed robbers are using your daughter as a human shield. What do you do? What do you do?   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 458
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18944 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2014 at 4:36 AM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-12 04:07:52 PM  

mschwenk: mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)

Yet a person with absolutely no training can manage to kill a fark load of people.  Also, a person with zero training cap exercise perfect gun safety by not buying/owning a gun.

Why are subjects to the crown so concerned with the rights of citizens?

Our observance of the Crown is purely symbolic, not unlike how you think you are a soldier protecting your country with your gun collection.  Neither have any basis in practical reality.

There have been armed lawful revolts in the US.

Civilian firearm posession also conviced Japan that a full on invasion was impossible; without civilian ownership the pre/early war military was pretty impotent.


A land invasion by Japan would have been a non-starter regardless if you had any guns or not.  It is a strawman argument anyways because no sensible gun control supports are advocating disarming the US citizenry.

Do you seriously view gun nuts as having more than a symbolic role in terms of protection American National security?
 
2014-06-12 04:12:28 PM  

HeadLever: mrshowrules: That's what reality looks like.

Why not both?  I would tend to think that reality would have enough room where there could be both an argument that turns to fisticuffs and domestic violence where intervention is truly needed.  Pretending that only one exists in reality is - well - not dealing with reality.


Fiction has holes in it.  I will comment after my question is answered.
 
2014-06-12 04:16:28 PM  

mrshowrules: Fiction has holes in it.


Sometimes, so does reality when brevity is used.
 
2014-06-12 04:17:58 PM  

mrshowrules: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

I saw a guy hitting his girlfriend outside a bar once.  I intervened and they both turned on me so I got the fark out of there.  That's what reality looks like.


I'm not saying he should have intervened just that the manner in which he did it was about the worst possible way.
 
2014-06-12 04:20:12 PM  

mrshowrules: Do you seriously view gun nuts as having more than a symbolic role in terms of protection American National security?


Well, since pretty much 95% of the US military is made up of these 'gun nuts', yeah.
 
2014-06-12 04:25:50 PM  

HeadLever: mrshowrules: Do you seriously view gun nuts as having more than a symbolic role in terms of protection American National security?

Well, since pretty much 95% of the US military is made up of these 'gun nuts', yeah.


I think we are having a problem of definitions here.

2.bp.blogspot.com
not
www.bubblews.com
 
2014-06-12 04:26:53 PM  

IRQ12: mrshowrules: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

I saw a guy hitting his girlfriend outside a bar once.  I intervened and they both turned on me so I got the fark out of there.  That's what reality looks like.

I'm not saying he should have intervened just that the manner in which he did it was about the worst possible way.


He could have called the cops the first night there was evidence of violence.
 
2014-06-12 04:27:35 PM  

Launch Code: Think of their poor families that now have to deal with the loss.


Depending on where this happened, I'm certain that a lawyer that went to Cooley moron with a JD will take the dead guy's family's case on a contingency basis.  Well, if the folks who refused to be a victim have any assets that they can steal seize through the legal process.
 
2014-06-12 04:28:20 PM  

HeadLever: mrshowrules: Fiction has holes in it.

Sometimes, so does reality when brevity is used.


How does reality have holes in it?
 
2014-06-12 04:30:55 PM  

mrshowrules: I think we are having a problem of definitions here.


How do you know that the two in the top pic are not also in the bottom? Again, there is nothing in your post that makes these mutually exclusive.

Not that I disagree that Open Carry activist are pretty much AWs, but I digress. . .
 
2014-06-12 04:33:05 PM  

mrshowrules: How does reality have holes in it?


How can it not when it is described via two or three sentences on Fark?
 
2014-06-12 04:35:38 PM  
Use my son as a human sword.

Touché!
 
2014-06-12 04:37:44 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Depending on where this happened, I'm certain that a lawyer that went to Cooley moron with a JD will take the dead guy's family's case on a contingency basis. Well, if the folks who refused to be a victim have any assets that they can steal seize through the legal process.


Happened in Missouri.  IIRC, their self defense/castle doctrine laws give immunity to the person legally using deadly force so there won't be a suit.
 
2014-06-12 04:44:17 PM  

HeadLever: mrshowrules: I think we are having a problem of definitions here.

How do you know that the two in the top pic are not also in the bottom? Again, there is nothing in your post that makes these mutually exclusive.

Not that I disagree that Open Carry activist are pretty much AWs, but I digress. . .


The US has real soldiers.  Both active and inactive/retired.  It also has millions of responsible gun owners.

There are also people who pretend to be soldiers, soldiers in waiting, or defenders of the Constitutions.  I'm referring to the latter group, especially those who fixate on their guns as somehow the mere ownership and use of them somehow makes them more patriotic.

Pretend soldiers, gun nuts/fetishists, paranoid militias.  You know, mental children.  To the extent they think of themselves as anything important, it is purely symbolic.  At best symbolic, at worse criminal and traitorous.
 
2014-06-12 04:51:36 PM  

zepher: When a homeowner hears about a home invasion (which happen in far greater numbers than North Hollywood style shootouts) and wants to arm himself against such a threat the homeowner is call 'paranoid', a 'gun nut', someone who lives in fear and a whole host of other derogatory names.

Care to explain why that is?


If the the home invasion happens next door, no.
If the the home invasion happens on the next block, no.
If the the home invasion happens a mile away, no.
If the the home invasion happens on the other side of town, no.
If the the home invasion happens in a crime and/or drug ridden neighborhood, no.

This makes sense.

If it's the people who "hear" about such things happening (usually from FoxNoiseChannel) way on the other side of the farking state or even in a city they have never been in and never will go to ever in their lives, then yes.

As I mentioned upthread, it's not the people in poor or drug infested neighborhoods that have arsenals in their houses that would be the envy of Afghani Insurgents, but white males in white towns way out in big wide flat square areas where a drunk driving arrest actually makes the front page of the local paper for an entire week's worth of issues. They seem to be the ones who are the most afraid of something which has less likelihood of happening to them than being struck by lightning while holding a winning lottery ticket.

They are arming themselves for an event that will happen probably never. That is called paranoia.
 
2014-06-12 04:58:04 PM  

mrshowrules: I'm referring to the latter group,


Then you are talking about a much more narrow group of folks that just gun nuts.

I have been called a gun nut and I probably am to a certain extent.  However I don't own a handgun or an assault weapon.  In fact my favorite firearms are pretty much limited to small caliber single shot, bolt action rifles.  You are not going to play soldier with that.  I don't own one thing that has Tac.... in the name (firearm or clothing related).

However, that does not keep me from arguing that we need to protect the rights currently in the Constitution which many would like to see changed.
 
2014-06-12 04:59:12 PM  
JustGetItRight:Happened in Missouri.  IIRC, their self defense/castle doctrine laws give immunity to the person legally using deadly force so there won't be a suit.

Um, I'm pretty sure that the recent push to statutorily recognize "common sense" in the form of things like "Stand Your Ground", et cetera, is the result of what I'd consider to be "absurd results" like the estates of the Bad Guys suing the Good Guys and winning.
 
2014-06-12 05:01:23 PM  

rewind2846: They are arming themselves for an event that will happen probably never


Deer season?  I have enough meat in the freezer for maybe one more year, but I sure hope it happens by 2015.
 
2014-06-12 05:03:01 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: zepher: Dead criminals with a long wrap sheet can only be a benefit to society.
There is no other way to logically look at it.

Wait.

Time.
Farking.
Out.

I can't farky you until you tell me whether that was intentional.
/Because you've shrouded your intentions well, zephyr.


It was completely intentional :)

/and it's zepher.
 
2014-06-12 05:08:35 PM  

HeadLever: mrshowrules: I'm referring to the latter group,

Then you are talking about a much more narrow group of folks that just gun nuts.

I have been called a gun nut and I probably am to a certain extent.  However I don't own a handgun or an assault weapon.  In fact my favorite firearms are pretty much limited to small caliber single shot, bolt action rifles.  You are not going to play soldier with that.  I don't own one thing that has Tac.... in the name (firearm or clothing related).

However, that does not keep me from arguing that we need to protect the rights currently in the Constitution which many would like to see changed.


I have no issue with people who believe the 2nd Amendment is sacred.  That's fine.  No issue with gun sportsman, hobbiests, collectors, whatever.  People who think gun ownership somehow protects anything other than their own property are misguided.

The idea of the 2nd amendment protecting the country in some way, is bullshiat (ergo symbolic to put it nicely).

What you and other people do with guns is probably harmless but it is also largely unnecessary is my point.  The gun debate has been won by Conservatives.  Victory is yours and no challenge to it in the near future I am certain.  However, let's not pretend the sub-set of gun nuts who think they are patriots by playing soldier are anything more than a dangerous joke.
 
2014-06-12 05:13:50 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Um, I'm pretty sure that the recent push to statutorily recognize "common sense" in the form of things like "Stand Your Ground", et cetera, is the result of what I'd consider to be "absurd results" like the estates of the Bad Guys suing the Good Guys and winning.


You're absolutely right - and since this happened in a state that has already addressed the issue there won't be a suit.
 
2014-06-12 05:15:15 PM  

Elliot8654: Nutsac_Jim: Elliot8654: Explain how dead people is the "best"outcome. I'm glad nothing happened to the family or girl, but people get so happy that someone got shot. I would much prefer no one had to die.

People generally are not simply happy that someone got shot.  They don't mind that some dirt-bag was shot.

Never forget that to someone out there, I am a bleeding heart libtard dirt-bag, someone else in this thread is a tea party gun nut dirt-bag, and you are a dirtbag to someone else.

Dirt-bag is not a good reason to not care if someone gets killed.

I bet he thought the people he was robbing and the person he killed were rich dirt bags.



I don't know about that.  Dirt-bag is usually used in reference to someone you don't care if they exist or not, and the world, in all likelihood is a better off place if they did not.

Bleeding heart libs and tea party douches are simply a matter of viewpoint difference.
I beat no extra heartbeats if one of them is walking behind me on a street.

Dritbags, on the other hand, you worry about your own life ending prematurely due to them.

Very few shed a tear for them.  I'll save mine for their kid that grows up without a parent, but not one tear someone that puts a gun at a girls head.

They are my tears, and I am selfish like that.
 
2014-06-12 05:18:08 PM  

mrshowrules: People who think gun ownership somehow protects anything other than their own property are misguided.


I don't think that.  All my guns are locked up and are pretty much useless for protecting my property in 90% of the circumstances.  The main protection my guns provide is protecting my freezer from becoming too empty.

However, if SHtF, I'll always reserve my right to use them and any other tool I have at my disposal to protect my property and possibly beyond.  Very much doubt that will ever become the case, but it has happened to others before and will again.
 
2014-06-12 05:30:49 PM  

Elliot8654: So innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to him, and you just speculate worst case scenario, so kill them and ask questions later.


You have to be trolling.  If you aren't, you're as stupid as a box of rocks.
 
2014-06-12 05:47:24 PM  

mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

2nd time was when we were doing a job for the city and started to have a series of hydraulic failures. The conspiracy theorists in my crew claimed it was because we outbid the local union shop so I stayed the night on the job site and watched as a guy came onto our job site and started to cut through one of the main hydraulic lines on one of my excavators. I called the police and held him at gunpoint.

3rd time was on another job site but he took off before police arrived.

I never thought to call the newspapers. If I had known that something had to be in the news to be true I probably still wouldn't have bothered.

I haven't seen any articles detailing any rapes today though....does that mean none happened?

Based on your previous post I imagine you saved the lives of 6 people through various shoot-outs.

I wouldn't expect any of those stories to make the news because they were all pretty lame.   I find it funny that in none of your examples, was a gun actually required to achieve the outcome that resulted.

Yeah but I didn't even fire into the ceiling and tell them to get out....By holding them at gunpoint they were assured that I meant to do them harm.

They had to trust me.

When did you call the police?


Neighbor called the police. They were already in the hall with the phone in their hand and the cord stretched to the maximum.
 
2014-06-12 06:02:25 PM  

IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.


Funny. Cops never mentioned that. I wonder why.

Im going to go out on a limb and say you are such a stickler for laws that you dont break any but if you do you insist the cops dont give you a warning or a break?

Happened daily. One of the things they told us in the acadamy that when responding to a DV or even an EDP is that you wait for backup because once someone goes into handcuffs the victim of the DV or the parents of the EDP might decide that they dont want a loved one taken away and charged, and the victim will turn on you. Since I was living by myself I had no backup with which to rely on. It went on for weeks before I did anything, but I did do something.

When wthe last time you saw a similiar situation and did you use your phone to call 911 or did you use it to take video to show uour friends so you could laugh at it?
 
2014-06-12 06:07:32 PM  

Elliot8654: FTDA: Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.

Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.

As a sovereign nation, America has the right to act as it sees fit within its own borders. A right it does not grant to most other nations.....

But regardless, armed citizenry did not defeat the Germans. A heavily armed military did. So since your military is so strong, you don't need your guns for that, right?

Oh, they are to defend yourself? By all means, carry on. Enjoy.

I am bemused that you think my having an opinion automatically thinks it is trying to override your rights. Do you really find your rights that flimsy?


In ww 1 and 2 the military was the citzenry. Most American soldiers were not professional soldiers, but volunteers and draftees. Previous marksmanship experience played a vital role in their performance.
 
2014-06-12 06:40:12 PM  

Giltric: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Funny. Cops never mentioned that. I wonder why.

Im going to go out on a limb and say you are such a stickler for laws that you dont break any but if you do you insist the cops dont give you a warning or a break?


Yes it is odd they didn't mention that or arrest you.  There's a really good reason it's a crime:  So people don't pull weapons to exercise control over a situation instead of using them in defense of life and limb.

The laws vary a lot but for the most part if you pull a weapon on someone you have put them in fear of their life and they can defend themselves accordingly.  It doesn't matter if you think they have committed a crime.

I'm pro 2nd, as such I will point out that committing a felonious act with your weapon is not a really good argument for the cause.
 
2014-06-12 06:43:29 PM  

FTDA: Says the person that hates everything American and takes every opportunity to pour derision upon us?


lolwut?
 
2014-06-12 06:43:55 PM  

IRQ12: Giltric: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Funny. Cops never mentioned that. I wonder why.

Im going to go out on a limb and say you are such a stickler for laws that you dont break any but if you do you insist the cops dont give you a warning or a break?

Yes it is odd they didn't mention that or arrest you.  There's a really good reason it's a crime:  So people don't pull weapons to exercise control over a situation instead of using them in defense of life and limb.

The laws vary a lot but for the most part if you pull a weapon on someone you have put them in fear of their life and they can defend themselves accordingly.  It doesn't matter if you think they have committed a crime.

I'm pro 2nd, as such I will point out that committing a felonious act with your weapon is not a really good argument for the cause.


If you read the post a few up from him, you'll see the magic phrase "when I was in the academy".

There's your answer.

Thin blue line.
 
2014-06-12 06:52:24 PM  

IRQ12: Giltric: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Funny. Cops never mentioned that. I wonder why.

Im going to go out on a limb and say you are such a stickler for laws that you dont break any but if you do you insist the cops dont give you a warning or a break?

Yes it is odd they didn't mention that or arrest you.  There's a really good reason it's a crime:  So people don't pull weapons to exercise control over a situation instead of using them in defense of life and limb.

The laws vary a lot but for the most part if you pull a weapon on someone you have put them in fear of their life and they can defend themselves accordingly.  It doesn't matter if you think they have committed a crime.

I'm pro 2nd, as such I will point out that committing a felonious act with your weapon is not a really good argument for the cause.


We also drove around with open beers in th 70s

And nobody batted an eye if we yelled at and spanked the neighbors kid


Good times the 70s.
 
2014-06-12 06:52:28 PM  

kendelrio: IRQ12: Giltric: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Funny. Cops never mentioned that. I wonder why.

Im going to go out on a limb and say you are such a stickler for laws that you dont break any but if you do you insist the cops dont give you a warning or a break?

Yes it is odd they didn't mention that or arrest you.  There's a really good reason it's a crime:  So people don't pull weapons to exercise control over a situation instead of using them in defense of life and limb.

The laws vary a lot but for the most part if you pull a weapon on someone you have put them in fear of their life and they can defend themselves accordingly.  It doesn't matter if you think they have committed a crime.

I'm pro 2nd, as such I will point out that committing a felonious act with your weapon is not a really good argument for the cause.

If you read the post a few up from him, you'll see the magic phrase "when I was in the academy".

There's your answer.

Thin blue line.


Ahh I missed that.  It's clear now.
 
2014-06-12 06:57:09 PM  

IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.


Actually, no. He used minimum force to stop a felony in progress (domestic violence). Not assault. Self defense also includes defense of others. You don't know as much as you think you do
 
2014-06-12 07:03:42 PM  
Maybe fark ate my Post due to racial epithets but i left the academy over a speech we were given about how we dont see (about 30 racial epithets go here) all we see are brothers.
 
2014-06-12 07:05:26 PM  

Giltric: IRQ12: Giltric: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Funny. Cops never mentioned that. I wonder why.

Im going to go out on a limb and say you are such a stickler for laws that you dont break any but if you do you insist the cops dont give you a warning or a break?

Yes it is odd they didn't mention that or arrest you.  There's a really good reason it's a crime:  So people don't pull weapons to exercise control over a situation instead of using them in defense of life and limb.

The laws vary a lot but for the most part if you pull a weapon on someone you have put them in fear of their life and they can defend themselves accordingly.  It doesn't matter if you think they have committed a crime.

I'm pro 2nd, as such I will point out that committing a felonious act with your weapon is not a really good argument for the cause.

We also drove around with open beers in th 70s

And nobody batted an eye if we yelled at and spanked the neighbors kid


Good times the 70s.


Sitting in the back rear facing seat of a station wagon. Seat belts? Pshaw! Your moms arm was the only seat belt you needed.

Sleeping on the back dash? Good enough if you had a bunch of kids in the car.

/adjusts onion
//get off my lawn
 
2014-06-12 07:13:30 PM  

ArkAngel: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Actually, no. He used minimum force to stop a felony in progress (domestic violence). Not assault. Self defense also includes defense of others. You don't know as much as you think you do


I'm pretty sure minimum force was him knocking on the door, and it seemed to work.  He didn't describe some situation which he was witnessing a violent assault and intervened.

I know exactly as much as I think I do:  You don't stick your weapon in someones face to control them or as a show of power over the situation.
 
2014-06-12 07:22:55 PM  

Giltric: Maybe fark ate my Post due to racial epithets but i left the academy over a speech we were given about how we dont see (about 30 racial epithets go here) all we see are brothers.


You quit over a speech? What did you think you were signing up for?
 
2014-06-12 07:38:47 PM  

IRQ12: ArkAngel: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Actually, no. He used minimum force to stop a felony in progress (domestic violence). Not assault. Self defense also includes defense of others. You don't know as much as you think you do

I'm pretty sure minimum force was him knocking on the door, and it seemed to work.  He didn't describe some situation which he was witnessing a violent assault and intervened.

I know exactly as much as I think I do:  You don't stick your weapon in someones face to control them or as a show of power over the situation.


In Illinois, he would not be arrested under the lawful use of force statute here. Probably similar in many other states:

Sec. 7-1. Use of force in defense of person.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.
 
2014-06-12 07:41:01 PM  
1) Center dot on his forehead
2) Exhale half way and pause breathing
3) Gently squeeze trigger
4) Bring daughter to another room


/AKA eliminating immediate threat
 
2014-06-12 09:41:04 PM  

joness0154: IRQ12: ArkAngel: IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.

Actually, no. He used minimum force to stop a felony in progress (domestic violence). Not assault. Self defense also includes defense of others. You don't know as much as you think you do

I'm pretty sure minimum force was him knocking on the door, and it seemed to work.  He didn't describe some situation which he was witnessing a violent assault and intervened.

I know exactly as much as I think I do:  You don't stick your weapon in someones face to control them or as a show of power over the situation.

In Illinois, he would not be arrested under the lawful use of force statute here. Probably similar in many other states:

Sec. 7-1. Use of force in defense of person.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.


IANAL (or a juror) but in the situation he described not only would use of force not be warranted but use of deadly force would be absurd.  He has no idea what the circumstances are behind the closed doors.  Maybe there was another male abusing the woman, maybe it was mutual.

If he was CCW and the circumstances after knocking met the above criteria I would say 'more power to ya', but it didn't.  Only LEO can brandish as a control mechanism.
 
2014-06-12 11:06:43 PM  

mrshowrules: mschwenk: mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)

Yet a person with absolutely no training can manage to kill a fark load of people.  Also, a person with zero training cap exercise perfect gun safety by not buying/owning a gun.

Why are subjects to the crown so concerned with the rights of citizens?

Our observance of the Crown is purely symbolic, not unlike how you think you are a soldier protecting your country with your gun collection.  Neither have any basis in practical reality.

There have been armed lawful revolts in the US.

Civilian firearm posession also conviced Japan that a full on invasion was impossible; without civilian ownership the pre/early war military was pretty impotent.

A land invasion by Japan would have been a non-starter regardless if you had any guns or not.  It is a strawman argument anyways because no sensible gun control supports are advocating disarming the US citizenry.

Do you seriously view gun nuts as having more than a symbolic role in terms of protection American National security?


Sweet, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy at work, folks
 
2014-06-12 11:09:29 PM  

rewind2846: zepher: When a homeowner hears about a home invasion (which happen in far greater numbers than North Hollywood style shootouts) and wants to arm himself against such a threat the homeowner is call 'paranoid', a 'gun nut', someone who lives in fear and a whole host of other derogatory names.

Care to explain why that is?

If the the home invasion happens next door, no.
If the the home invasion happens on the next block, no.
If the the home invasion happens a mile away, no.
If the the home invasion happens on the other side of town, no.
If the the home invasion happens in a crime and/or drug ridden neighborhood, no.

This makes sense.

If it's the people who "hear" about such things happening (usually from FoxNoiseChannel) way on the other side of the farking state or even in a city they have never been in and never will go to ever in their lives, then yes.

As I mentioned upthread, it's not the people in poor or drug infested neighborhoods that have arsenals in their houses that would be the envy of Afghani Insurgents, but white males in white towns way out in big wide flat square areas where a drunk driving arrest actually makes the front page of the local paper for an entire week's worth of issues. They seem to be the ones who are the most afraid of something which has less likelihood of happening to them than being struck by lightning while holding a winning lottery ticket.

They are arming themselves for an event that will happen probably never. That is called paranoia.


What hardware store did you buy that broad brush you're painting with? Do you actually know anyone who owns guns?
 
2014-06-13 06:38:38 AM  

No Such Agency: OK, since, like all gun threads, we've abandoned reason for madness in this thread, let me ask you this:  What's the scoreboard for

daughters saved from home invaders by gun-toting dad

vs.

daughters shot by accident when coming home late/unexpectedly by gun-toting dad?

(Bonus adult son killed after mistaken for burglar)


Well... his own fault. My dad was a VERY good shot and my mom was pre-selected for the 1964 Mexican Olympic shooting team (damn amateurism, she didn´t have the money to go)... so I knew since I was a kid I should never attempt to sneak in. the whole family was a firm believer in "ring the bell or be a target". A chewing out was much better than a lead shower.
 
2014-06-13 07:44:56 AM  

8tReAsUrEz: A chewing out was much better than a lead shower.


emm... as a non-native english speaker who has trouble with euphamisms, I'd like to say that this sentence made me think your family was a tad kinky, but then I googled the terms, and now I'm just scared for your younger self on a totally different, but far less sexual level. I guess you have the sort of respect for guns that I'd ideally want to see instilled in every gunowner in America.
 
2014-06-13 08:54:55 AM  
ROFL! Nah, even though my parents were pretty open-minded (no foolish prudery about going naked or displays of affection), I'm the only kinky one in the family... and I tell my partners not to chew, that would hurt a fair bit ^_~

I would think there would be a more respectful attitude at least in military families (mine was, 2 uncles in the army, dad was the third Bundeswehr callup, and I didn't have a mom... I had a CO)... All the cousins were taught how to shoot at a very early age, and we were taught not to fool around with guns with very heavy punishment expected if we did. We were also taught home defense and that anybody coming over the wall was fair game, including uninvited acquaintances (open lawns and picket fences are unknown in central Mexico)... so why exactly is the consciousness of guns' lethal nature absent is a mystery to me.
 
2014-06-13 09:24:59 AM  

8tReAsUrEz: I didn't have a mom... I had a CO


The only thing I can relare this to is that I didn't have a mom, I had had a militant physiotherapist. (worked for a pro soccer team, was used to pussy excuses)

I have great posture, you have respect for firearms. Maybe we should swap 'you're never too young' stories! ;-)
 
2014-06-13 09:45:35 AM  

Doom MD: There have been armed lawful revolts in the US.

Civilian firearm posession also conviced Japan that a full on invasion was impossible; without civilian ownership the pre/early war military was pretty impotent.

A land invasion by Japan would have been a non-starter regardless if you had any guns or not.  It is a strawman argument anyways because no sensible gun control supports are advocating disarming the US citizenry.

Do you seriously view gun nuts as having more than a symbolic role in terms of protection American National security?


Sweet, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy at work, folks


You will have to explain that one to me because I don't see it.  The sovereignty of the US was never protected by armed citizens.  That's not a true Scotsman argument.  That's calling pure bullshiat on a false statement argument.
 
2014-06-13 10:01:09 AM  

mrshowrules: The sovereignty of the US was never protected by armed citizens.


Again, sure it was.  Armed citizens are what makes up the armed forces.  These are not mutually exclusive subsets of people.
 
2014-06-13 10:05:01 AM  

HeadLever: mrshowrules: The sovereignty of the US was never protected by armed citizens.

Again, sure it was.  Armed citizens are what makes up the armed forces.  These are not mutually exclusive subsets of people.


You are just playing lame semantics but if you wish:

cit·i·zen  [sit-uh-zuhn, -suhn]  Show IPA
noun
1.
a native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection (distinguished from alien ).
2.
an inhabitant of a city or town, especially one entitled to its privileges or franchises.
3.
an inhabitant, or denizen: The deer is a citizen of our woods.
4.
a civilian, as distinguished from a soldier, police officer, etc.
 
2014-06-13 10:19:51 AM  

mrshowrules: HeadLever: mrshowrules: The sovereignty of the US was never protected by armed citizens.

Again, sure it was.  Armed citizens are what makes up the armed forces.  These are not mutually exclusive subsets of people.

You are just playing lame semantics but if you wish:

cit·i·zen  [sit-uh-zuhn, -suhn]  Show IPA
noun
1.
a native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection (distinguished from alien ).
2.
an inhabitant of a city or town, especially one entitled to its privileges or franchises.
3.
an inhabitant, or denizen: The deer is a citizen of our woods.
4.
a civilian, as distinguished from a soldier, police officer, etc.


I'd say before the revolutionary war started up, the militia were just civilians with a retired person of some type of military standing, giving them a few basics.  Just in case there was some outside trouble that came to the town and they needed a force to react.
 
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