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(Daily Mail)   Pop quiz hotshot. Armed robbers are using your daughter as a human shield. What do you do? What do you do?   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 458
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18874 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2014 at 4:36 AM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-12 01:07:31 PM  

Another Government Employee: RsquaredW: Another Government Employee: Nice shooting.

I'm guessing he has some military background. Takes a good bit of patience to wait for your shot.

I'm also guessing he knew his perps. This was a targeted takedown.

In the realm of completely baseless speculation, I'd bet that the perp "holding hostage" was really waving his piece around like he owned the place and had the girl in the Standard Female Immobilization Grip (the upper arm), not in the Standard Movie Standoff Hostage Pose.  Little doubt that girl and perp knew each other and there was an argument, probably a bunch of expletives and verbal cockwaving.  Dad's tired of the scumbag being around, pops him and his little friend figuring that the fam can get their stories straight together.  The only evidence I have for this theory is that the perp never got off a shot, which seems unlikely when both dad and mom put rounds on target (or off target, in the mom's case).

A lot of folks (like Mom)  would have just shot in a knee jerk reaction and hit the wrong target (the daughter).  No, this guy took a breath and assessed before shooting.

The reason I think this was a targeted event is the perps went right for the duaghter. This leads me to believe the perp knew that Daddy was armed.

I wonder why they chose that house?  Money? Drugs?


They chose that house because the family, just like the Clutter family in the book "In Cold Blood", were rich and kept stacks of cash in the house. This time, however, one of the sociopaths died at the scene and the family survived. Sadly, some people have a problem with this outcome.
 
2014-06-12 01:07:58 PM  

Dimensio: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: The teenager's mother also fired shots. The bullets from the gunfire went all the way across the street, into a neighbor's home.

As I said: the best solution would have been giving the armed, hostage-taking robbers the benefit of the doubt. I am pleased that others agree with me.


That cold medicine is working, you are on today. :)

/new batteries
 
2014-06-12 01:15:55 PM  

Dimensio: joness0154: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: The teenager's mother also fired shots. The bullets from the gunfire went all the way across the street, into a neighbor's home.

No bystanders got injured, 1 dead perp, and 1 critically wounded perp.

How is this not a win/win for everyone?

How, exactly, were the criminals winners in this incident?


They no longer have to worry about filing income tax returns next April.
 
2014-06-12 01:18:06 PM  

Yaw String: Dimensio: joness0154: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: The teenager's mother also fired shots. The bullets from the gunfire went all the way across the street, into a neighbor's home.

No bystanders got injured, 1 dead perp, and 1 critically wounded perp.

How is this not a win/win for everyone?

How, exactly, were the criminals winners in this incident?

They no longer have to worry about filing income tax returns next April.


While you do have a point, my guess is these dregs of society actually got more in credits than they paid into the system.

If they even filed at all.
 
2014-06-12 01:19:25 PM  

Elliot8654: Nutsac_Jim: Elliot8654: Explain how dead people is the "best"outcome. I'm glad nothing happened to the family or girl, but people get so happy that someone got shot. I would much prefer no one had to die.

People generally are not simply happy that someone got shot.  They don't mind that some dirt-bag was shot.

Never forget that to someone out there, I am a bleeding heart libtard dirt-bag, someone else in this thread is a tea party gun nut dirt-bag, and you are a dirtbag to someone else.

Dirt-bag is not a good reason to not care if someone gets killed.

I bet he thought the people he was robbing and the person he killed were rich dirt bags.


The parents were just respecting the beliefs of their fellow citizens. See, the thugs declared that the believed violence to be an acceptable solution to their problems. The parents acknowledged their belief system and shared in it.

We should rejoice in the cultural exchange that went on.

I understand your delusional belief that no one should have to die an unnatural death, but sometimes rabid animals just have to be put down. What would your preferred solution have been? That the family was robbed and the thugs go free to commit more crimes? Or would you prefer they be locked up at the taxpayer's expense forever? Are you willing to pay for their incarceration, cause I'm not.
 
2014-06-12 01:23:42 PM  
Has anyone pointed out this was a home defense situation?
In my opinion, it's perfectly reasonable for a society to allow their citizens to use deadly force to protect themselves and their loved ones in their home.
Also, I think it is bat-shait crazy for a society to allow gun uts to run around in public carrying loaded guns.
A successful home self defense incident does not justify concealed or open carry laws so let's not conflate the two!
 
2014-06-12 01:24:47 PM  
"gun uts" is a new type of potato chip.  Very macho!
 
2014-06-12 01:25:13 PM  

Headso: zepher: But the Left uses it as an example of for their gun ban and military local police causes.

sorry but the states with the highest incarceration rates and most ridiculous drug laws are red states. The only issue conservatives have right are gun laws. I call on every gun enthusiast to become a liberal who disagrees with that single policy position  rather than being a conservative that carries water for oligarchs and theocrats all just because they agree with you on this one issue.


High incarceration rate many times equals lower crime rate.
Care to site what states have higher crime rates? Red or Blue?

And I don't carry water for anyone.
I think the vast majority of drug laws are stupid and do nothing to prevent crime or actual drug use.
 
2014-06-12 01:26:58 PM  

Yaw String: Dimensio: joness0154: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: The teenager's mother also fired shots. The bullets from the gunfire went all the way across the street, into a neighbor's home.

No bystanders got injured, 1 dead perp, and 1 critically wounded perp.

How is this not a win/win for everyone?

How, exactly, were the criminals winners in this incident?

They no longer have to worry about filing income tax returns next April.


Their advancing in their careers. Some more than others.
 
2014-06-12 01:28:15 PM  

RisaTravelAgent: Has anyone pointed out this was a home defense situation?
In my opinion, it's perfectly reasonable for a society to allow their citizens to use deadly force to protect themselves and their loved ones in their home.
Also, I think it is bat-shait crazy for a society to allow gun uts to run around in public carrying loaded guns.
A successful home self defense incident does not justify concealed or open carry laws so let's not conflate the two!


You are correct, as I am certain that you will be able to justify through demonstration of a pattern of increased rates of violent crime, including homicide, following enactment of "shall-issue" based concealed weapons permit systems.
 
2014-06-12 01:29:59 PM  

Elliot8654: mschwenk: Elliot8654: give me doughnuts: starsrift: If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.


With just a few bullets purchased and fired by a citizen, the St. Louis court system avoided having to pay for the trial and incarceration of a felon. In New York in 2012, the cost just to house, care for, and guard a single inmate was over $180,000.

A win for the taxpayers!

Yay! Instead of anyone getting a fair trial or actually figuring out what caused this or how to make it better, we just kill people!

Hooray! Who needs the other amendments when we have the 2nd!

The alternative in this scenario is worse. This was the best possible outcome. If the other guy had survived tp go to trial, it would mean the father and daughter would most likely be dead.

Does the right to a fair trial trump the right to live?

Or they steal stuff, back out, push the girl, and run because they don't want murder added to the list of charges. Arrested later that day.

Explain how dead people is the "best"outcome. I'm glad nothing happened to the family or girl, but people get so happy that someone got shot. I would much prefer no one had to die.


Dead criminals with a long wrap sheet can only be a benefit to society.
There is no other way to logically look at it.
 
2014-06-12 01:33:21 PM  

mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)

Yet a person with absolutely no training can manage to kill a fark load of people.  Also, a person with zero training cap exercise perfect gun safety by not buying/owning a gun.

Why are subjects to the crown so concerned with the rights of citizens?

Our observance of the Crown is purely symbolic, not unlike how you think you are a soldier protecting your country with your gun collection.  Neither have any basis in practical reality.


I don't have to save my country, I already saved a couple lives in 3 instances....2 of which lead to arrests and one which went unreported.
 
2014-06-12 01:35:02 PM  

RisaTravelAgent: Has anyone pointed out this was a home defense situation?
In my opinion, it's perfectly reasonable for a society to allow their citizens to use deadly force to protect themselves and their loved ones in their home.
Also, I think it is bat-shait crazy for a society to allow gun uts to run around in public carrying loaded guns.
A successful home self defense incident does not justify concealed or open carry laws so let's not conflate the two!


I completely agree.  No one has the right to self-defense outside the home.
 
2014-06-12 01:42:00 PM  

Elliot8654: Headso: Elliot8654: "Some people are not entitled to their day in court"?

So you don't believe in all the amendments in the bill of rights, just the 2nd?

the amendments are restrictions on government power they aren't restrictions on an individual protecting his family from a home invasion.

No. They are ensuring our rights, like the right to a speedy trial for all citizens.


He got a speedy trial.  2400fps is pretty damn speedy.
 
2014-06-12 01:43:13 PM  

RisaTravelAgent: Also, I think it is bat-shait crazy for a society to allow gun uts to run around in public carrying loaded guns.
A successful home self defense incident does not justify concealed or open carry laws so let's not conflate the two!


So you're OK with people preventing thugs from raping, robbing, and killing people in their own homes, but feel as though they should accept that behavior should they ever venture outside.

Got it.

/Strongly dislike the open carry bunch.  They aren't helping.
 
2014-06-12 01:43:41 PM  

Giltric: mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)

Yet a person with absolutely no training can manage to kill a fark load of people.  Also, a person with zero training cap exercise perfect gun safety by not buying/owning a gun.

Why are subjects to the crown so concerned with the rights of citizens?

Our observance of the Crown is purely symbolic, not unlike how you think you are a soldier protecting your country with your gun collection.  Neither have any basis in practical reality.

I don't have to save my country, I already saved a couple lives in 3 instances....2 of which lead to arrests and one which went unreported.


So 2 lives total or 2 lives in each of 3 instances, for a total of 6.  You saved 6 lives?

The guy in the link only saved his daughter and this is being reported Nationally.  I assume your story must have been made into a major motion picture.
 
2014-06-12 01:56:13 PM  

RassilonsExWife: UseUrHeadFred: I give my daughter the "kill" command. Then I take the dead robber's wallet and have an ice cream cone with his money.

Eta Kooram Nah Smech!


Вот точно причина ты же бывшая жена Рассилиона.
/Ёбка лучше, да?
 
2014-06-12 01:57:00 PM  

mrshowrules: The guy in the link only saved his daughter and this is being reported Nationally. I assume your story must have been made into a major motion picture.


Is this what really passes for logic in your head?  Some sort of crazy assumption that the media works off of a guaranteed coverage scale?  That's so special it creates an all new class of retard.
 
2014-06-12 02:00:06 PM  

Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.


Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.
 
2014-06-12 02:04:00 PM  

mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)

Yet a person with absolutely no training can manage to kill a fark load of people.  Also, a person with zero training cap exercise perfect gun safety by not buying/owning a gun.

Why are subjects to the crown so concerned with the rights of citizens?

Our observance of the Crown is purely symbolic, not unlike how you think you are a soldier protecting your country with your gun collection.  Neither have any basis in practical reality.

I don't have to save my country, I already saved a couple lives in 3 instances....2 of which lead to arrests and one which went unreported.

So 2 lives total or 2 lives in each of 3 instances, for a total of 6.  You saved 6 lives?

The guy in the link only saved his daughter and this is being reported Nationally.  I assume your story must have been made into a major motion picture.


When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

2nd time was when we were doing a job for the city and started to have a series of hydraulic failures. The conspiracy theorists in my crew claimed it was because we outbid the local union shop so I stayed the night on the job site and watched as a guy came onto our job site and started to cut through one of the main hydraulic lines on one of my excavators. I called the police and held him at gunpoint.

3rd time was on another job site but he took off before police arrived.

I never thought to call the newspapers. If I had known that something had to be in the news to be true I probably still wouldn't have bothered.

I haven't seen any articles detailing any rapes today though....does that mean none happened?
 
2014-06-12 02:04:54 PM  

zepher: Dead criminals with a long wrap sheet can only be a benefit to society.
There is no other way to logically look at it.


Wait.

Time.
Farking.
Out.

I can't farky you until you tell me whether that was intentional.
/Because you've shrouded your intentions well, zephyr.
 
2014-06-12 02:04:58 PM  

Elliot8654: Nutsac_Jim: Elliot8654: Explain how dead people is the "best"outcome. I'm glad nothing happened to the family or girl, but people get so happy that someone got shot. I would much prefer no one had to die.

People generally are not simply happy that someone got shot.  They don't mind that some dirt-bag was shot.

Never forget that to someone out there, I am a bleeding heart libtard dirt-bag, someone else in this thread is a tea party gun nut dirt-bag, and you are a dirtbag to someone else.

Dirt-bag is not a good reason to not care if someone gets killed.

I bet he thought the people he was robbing and the person he killed were rich dirt bags.


what about douche bags? Is it ok that I'm kinda 'meh' when one of them gets, well maybe not outright killed per se, but maimed, or gets nasty roadrash falling off their motorbike when running a red at 80mph?
 
2014-06-12 02:05:27 PM  

FTDA: Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.

Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.


As a sovereign nation, America has the right to act as it sees fit within its own borders. A right it does not grant to most other nations.....

But regardless, armed citizenry did not defeat the Germans. A heavily armed military did. So since your military is so strong, you don't need your guns for that, right?

Oh, they are to defend yourself? By all means, carry on. Enjoy.

I am bemused that you think my having an opinion automatically thinks it is trying to override your rights. Do you really find your rights that flimsy?
 
2014-06-12 02:06:58 PM  

Duke_leto_Atredes: 5 star chef of tv dinners: rikdanger: From the Comments:
"Winomaster, St Louis, United States, 2 hours ago

I live just down the street from this incident. The problem we have in this country is that after we have ample evidence of who the bad apples are, we allow them to continue to run loose. There are some habitable islands off the coast of Alaska that could work as good cost effective prison colonies. This is especially cost effective because we could also use that same island for a firing range for Navy battleships"

[mlkshk.com image 330x186]

How is that cost effective?  There is a chance that you could hit the prison and then you would have to keep rebuilding these things.  Long-term outlook isn't very good with this plan.

No construction needed, just a perimeter mine field in depth and sea mines as well. Drop the farktards out of a helicopter and be done with it. Coventry.


This guy had the best plan for this solution:
www.soulwinning.info
 
2014-06-12 02:07:12 PM  

FTDA: Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice. (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events,


it's not an oversimplification of events, it's an entirely delusional version of them.
 
2014-06-12 02:18:08 PM  
Why is Britain so interested in this? You're a country the size of one of our states, you don't have anywhere near the "thug" issues we do...you don't even really matter on a global business scale.

And yet, they're so quick to jump into our shiat to deride us.

Remember when the punk rockers burst onto the scene in the 70's and 80's- typically young British men with no sense of direction, unhappy with "the Queen", lack of jobs and all around pissy?

That doesn't even compare to what we deal with on a daily basis in America. You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
2014-06-12 02:18:39 PM  

Elliot8654: FTDA: Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.

Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.

As a sovereign nation, America has the right to act as it sees fit within its own borders. A right it does not grant to most other nations.....


Yes, we have that right, do you not? Are we to blame that you don't?

But regardless, armed citizenry did not defeat the Germans. A heavily armed military did. So since your military is so strong, you don't need your guns for that, right?

Correct, there was only one nation that was stupid enough to try it, and then they lost.

Oh, they are to defend yourself? By all means, carry on. Enjoy.

We are, just as this news account points out.

I am bemused that you think my having an opinion automatically thinks it is trying to override your rights. Do you really find your rights that flimsy?

Nice try there at flimsy. I'm thinking of countries that have flimsy self defense rights. Can you think of one?
 
2014-06-12 02:23:34 PM  

kerrigand: Elliot8654: FTDA: Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.

Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.

As a sovereign nation, America has the right to act as it sees fit within its own borders. A right it does not grant to most other nations.....

Yes, we have that right, do you not? Are we to blame that you don't?

But regardless, armed citizenry did not defeat the Germans. A heavily armed military did. So since your military is so strong, you don't need your guns for that, right?

Correct, there was only one nation that was stupid enough to try it, and then they lost.

Oh, they are to defend yourself? By all means, carry on. Enjoy.

We are, just as this news account points out.

I am bemused that you think my having an opinion automatically thinks it is trying to override your rights. Do you really find your rights that flimsy?

Nice try there at flimsy. I'm thinking of countries that have flimsy self defense rights. Can you think of one?


Your writing reeks of a smug American superiority complex. Why is this so common? What gives you this impression that by virtue of being from America you are better than other people? Or because your country has the biggest military complex you always think you are right?
 
2014-06-12 02:25:37 PM  

RisaTravelAgent: Has anyone pointed out this was a home defense situation?
In my opinion, it's perfectly reasonable for a society to allow their citizens to use deadly force to protect themselves and their loved ones in their home.
Also, I think it is bat-shait crazy for a society to allow gun uts to run around in public carrying loaded guns.
A successful home self defense incident does not justify concealed or open carry laws so let's not conflate the two!


We're allowed to protect our family at home, but not in our cars and on the street? We must submit to robbery, rape, assault, etc in the yard, but not past the door? That doesn't sound very civilized to me.
 
2014-06-12 02:34:09 PM  

Elliot8654: kerrigand: Elliot8654: FTDA: Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.

Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.

As a sovereign nation, America has the right to act as it sees fit within its own borders. A right it does not grant to most other nations.....

Yes, we have that right, do you not? Are we to blame that you don't?

But regardless, armed citizenry did not defeat the Germans. A heavily armed military did. So since your military is so strong, you don't need your guns for that, right?

Correct, there was only one nation that was stupid enough to try it, and then they lost.

Oh, they are to defend yourself? By all means, carry on. Enjoy.

We are, just as this news account points out.

I am bemused that you think my having an opinion automatically thinks it is trying to override your rights. Do you really find your rights that flimsy?

Nice try there at flimsy. I'm thinking of countries that have flimsy self defense rights. Can you think of one?

Your writing reeks of a smug American superiority complex. Why is this so common? What gives you this impression that by virtue of being from America you are better than other people? Or because your country has the biggest military complex you always think you are right?


And your's doesn't?
 
2014-06-12 02:44:02 PM  

Elliot8654: kerrigand: Elliot8654: FTDA: Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.

Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.

As a sovereign nation, America has the right to act as it sees fit within its own borders. A right it does not grant to most other nations.....

Yes, we have that right, do you not? Are we to blame that you don't?

But regardless, armed citizenry did not defeat the Germans. A heavily armed military did. So since your military is so strong, you don't need your guns for that, right?

Correct, there was only one nation that was stupid enough to try it, and then they lost.

Oh, they are to defend yourself? By all means, carry on. Enjoy.

We are, just as this news account points out.

I am bemused that you think my having an opinion automatically thinks it is trying to override your rights. Do you really find your rights that flimsy?

Nice try there at flimsy. I'm thinking of countries that have flimsy self defense rights. Can you think of one?

Your writing reeks of a smug American superiority complex. Why is this so common? What gives you this impression that by virtue of being from America you are better than other people? Or because your country has the biggest military complex you always think you are right?


13 million illegal immigrants seem to think we are pretty ok.
 
2014-06-12 02:52:23 PM  

EatenTheSun: 13 million illegal immigrants seem to think we are pretty ok.


And thats only counting the ones who came here this week.

/try the veal
 
2014-06-12 02:53:51 PM  

Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

2nd time was when we were doing a job for the city and started to have a series of hydraulic failures. The conspiracy theorists in my crew claimed it was because we outbid the local union shop so I stayed the night on the job site and watched as a guy came onto our job site and started to cut through one of the main hydraulic lines on one of my excavators. I called the police and held him at gunpoint.

3rd time was on another job site but he took off before police arrived.

I never thought to call the newspapers. If I had known that something had to be in the news to be true I probably still wouldn't have bothered.

I haven't seen any articles detailing any rapes today though....does that mean none happened?


Based on your previous post I imagine you saved the lives of 6 people through various shoot-outs.

I wouldn't expect any of those stories to make the news because they were all pretty lame.  I find it funny that in none of your examples, was a gun actually required to achieve the outcome that resulted.
 
2014-06-12 02:57:43 PM  

Click Click D'oh: mrshowrules: The guy in the link only saved his daughter and this is being reported Nationally. I assume your story must have been made into a major motion picture.

Is this what really passes for logic in your head?  Some sort of crazy assumption that the media works off of a guaranteed coverage scale?  That's so special it creates an all new class of retard.


Cool story bro was the sentiment I was expressing.  Don't be pedantic.  I wasn't truly expecting the absence of a motion picture to be proof of anything.
 
2014-06-12 03:00:44 PM  

Elliot8654: FTDA: Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: ....tell me America is still the best country ever.

Do you have this in merry 'ol England?

Thought not.

So...

You don't have it here either.

What America seems to have in abundance is delusion.

Americans with guns:

Handed Great Britain it's ass twice. (Revolutionary War, War of 1812)
Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice.  (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events, but it does not change the outcome.
//I'll stick to being an American with a gun and the freedom to defend myself.
///You stick to being a Britain with an opinion and the arrogance to think it over rides our constitutional rights.

As a sovereign nation, America has the right to act as it sees fit within its own borders. A right it does not grant to most other nations.....

(That's pretty damn funny coming from a country that had Empirical aspirations.)
But regardless, armed citizenry did not defeat the Germans. A heavily armed military did. So since your military is so strong, you don't need your guns for that, right?
(That armed populace has kept heavily armed militarys from invading since 1812.)
Oh, they are to defend yourself? By all means, carry on. Enjoy.
(Yes they are, and yes I will.)
I am bemused that you think my having an opinion automatically thinks it is trying to override your rights. Do you really find your rights that flimsy?

(No my rights aren't flimsy.  Why do you think your opinion or tiresome argument is strong enough to over ride them?)

/Keep farting through that  bullhorn.  Eventually you'll find someone that's willing to listen to your shiat.
 
2014-06-12 03:01:47 PM  

mrshowrules: I find it funny that in none of your examples, was a gun actually required to achieve the outcome that resulted.


A gun is never 'required'.  It is, however, the right tool for the job in certain circumstances.
 
2014-06-12 03:15:11 PM  

Dimensio: joness0154: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: The teenager's mother also fired shots. The bullets from the gunfire went all the way across the street, into a neighbor's home.

No bystanders got injured, 1 dead perp, and 1 critically wounded perp.

How is this not a win/win for everyone?

How, exactly, were the criminals winners in this incident?


At least one of them will never go to jail again, which is nice.
 
2014-06-12 03:16:50 PM  

mrshowrules: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

2nd time was when we were doing a job for the city and started to have a series of hydraulic failures. The conspiracy theorists in my crew claimed it was because we outbid the local union shop so I stayed the night on the job site and watched as a guy came onto our job site and started to cut through one of the main hydraulic lines on one of my excavators. I called the police and held him at gunpoint.

3rd time was on another job site but he took off before police arrived.

I never thought to call the newspapers. If I had known that something had to be in the news to be true I probably still wouldn't have bothered.

I haven't seen any articles detailing any rapes today though....does that mean none happened?

Based on your previous post I imagine you saved the lives of 6 people through various shoot-outs.

I wouldn't expect any of those stories to make the news because they were all pretty lame.   I find it funny that in none of your examples, was a gun actually required to achieve the outcome that resulted.


Yeah but I didn't even fire into the ceiling and tell them to get out....By holding them at gunpoint they were assured that I meant to do them harm.

They had to trust me.
 
2014-06-12 03:36:28 PM  

uttertosh: FTDA: Saved Great Britains ass from the Germans twice. (WWI, WWII)

/Yes I know that's an over simplification of events,

it's not an oversimplification of events, it's an entirely delusional version of them.


Says the person that hates everything American and takes every opportunity to pour derision upon us?  The only thing people conjure in their minds when they think of Sweden are a Bikini Team and a very awesome muppet.

/ So, bork bork bork to you good sir!
 
2014-06-12 03:40:14 PM  

Giltric: mrshowrules: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

2nd time was when we were doing a job for the city and started to have a series of hydraulic failures. The conspiracy theorists in my crew claimed it was because we outbid the local union shop so I stayed the night on the job site and watched as a guy came onto our job site and started to cut through one of the main hydraulic lines on one of my excavators. I called the police and held him at gunpoint.

3rd time was on another job site but he took off before police arrived.

I never thought to call the newspapers. If I had known that something had to be in the news to be true I probably still wouldn't have bothered.

I haven't seen any articles detailing any rapes today though....does that mean none happened?

Based on your previous post I imagine you saved the lives of 6 people through various shoot-outs.

I wouldn't expect any of those stories to make the news because they were all pretty lame.   I find it funny that in none of your examples, was a gun actually required to achieve the outcome that resulted.

Yeah but I didn't even fire into the ceiling and tell them to get out....By holding them at gunpoint they were assured that I meant to do them harm.

They had to trust me.


When did you call the police?
 
2014-06-12 03:52:23 PM  

Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: I think I need to move back to England.

Go look up all factors of societal health, and tell me America is still the best country ever.

The only "freedom" you have that the rest of the world doesn't is its so much easier to get a gun. Go look up what other countries have. Check out Germany.


Thats simply not true. Although freedom of speach is a little more restricted in America than I would like, Europe is far more restrictive.

Or how about ASBOs in jolly England where a court can impose punishment on someone not for breaking a law, but simply for being different from others.


As far as self defense goes, its pretty hard to defend yourself when you don't have the tools to do so.


Your mention of Germany is awesome since you can get guns fairly easily there.
 
2014-06-12 03:54:37 PM  

Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)


I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.
 
2014-06-12 03:54:48 PM  

Elliot8654: JuggleGeek: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Maybe.  If you catch them, and if they have the ability to pay for it.

But if they had gotten in the house and disarmed the parents, we don't know what they would have done.  Maybe they would have taken what they wanted and killed the three witnesses.  One of them had been charged with murder before, with the case dropped due to lack of witnesses.

So innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to him, and you just speculate worst case scenario, so kill them and ask questions later.

Wonderful.


Correct it is wonderful. You don't have a duty to die.

Murdering or torturing home invasion victims is one of the most common outcomes of cooperation.
 
2014-06-12 03:56:32 PM  

Elliot8654: Giltric: Elliot8654: JuggleGeek: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Maybe.  If you catch them, and if they have the ability to pay for it.

But if they had gotten in the house and disarmed the parents, we don't know what they would have done.  Maybe they would have taken what they wanted and killed the three witnesses.  One of them had been charged with murder before, with the case dropped due to lack of witnesses.

So innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to him, and you just speculate worst case scenario, so kill them and ask questions later.

Wonderful.

We crafted our indefinite detention on your Diplock Courts....don't start preaching about innocent before guilt.

So because England did it ages ago, the us bill of rights and Constitution doesn't apply in America anymore?

What kind of authoritarian are you? Do no amendments but the second matter to you?


England still does it on paper. The british courts are simply ignoring their own laws.
 
2014-06-12 03:58:28 PM  

amoral: Giltric: Elliot8654: Giltric: Elliot8654: JuggleGeek: starsrift: If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.

The girl got away unharmed, one of the thugs is dead, and the other is wounded and will spend most of his life in jail.

Your version is "Let the criminals have whatever the hell they want", and it is *not* better.

Now, please demonstrate how you know they would have killed the girl, and not just taken money and fled, to be caught later?

We have what actually happened, and we have your blind conjecture as to what you think might happen if they weren't armed.

Don't forget, a gunman lost to a college kid with pepper spray. Guns aren't the end all answer.

It could have went your way....or it could have went this way....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_mu rd ers

If you can see into the furture why are you posting on Fark instead of reaping the powerball millions while sitting on a beach drinking out of a coconut?

I can't. And neither can you. So the first thing that has to stop is people claiming all the good that guns do just by being ubiquitous in America.
"Well see, if they are armed this wouldn't have happened." Is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

"Think of what might have happened if they weren't armed" is a close second.

Yes but I am armed so it doesn't matter what actually happens, the worst case scenario is covered instead of wishing I was armed when the worst case scenario happens.

You don't keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen because you are going to set fire to the kitchen, you have it for when you do set fire to the kitchen.

Having a fire extinguisher never makes a fire get worse, nor does it make a fire more likely. Nor are there serious repercussions if you use the fire extinguisher, but it turns out there was just smoke.


Actually that isn't true.
 
2014-06-12 03:59:17 PM  

IRQ12: Giltric: When I was younger I had a neighbor in the apartment next door who I could hear beating his girlfriend almost daily.  I got sick of it and knocked on the door and shoved a .38 up his nose. Police responded gave me atta boys and probably beat him on the way to lockup. Neighbors brought me tribute in the form of chicken and rice and we never saw the scumbag again. (Paterson NJ in the 70s)

I hope you know your CSB is felony aggravated assault but kudos I guess.

Not to mention that you say it happened daily and just waited until you were sick of it to act on it?  Nice.


I saw a guy hitting his girlfriend outside a bar once.  I intervened and they both turned on me so I got the fark out of there.  That's what reality looks like.
 
2014-06-12 04:01:14 PM  

mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)

Yet a person with absolutely no training can manage to kill a fark load of people.  Also, a person with zero training cap exercise perfect gun safety by not buying/owning a gun.

Why are subjects to the crown so concerned with the rights of citizens?

Our observance of the Crown is purely symbolic, not unlike how you think you are a soldier protecting your country with your gun collection.  Neither have any basis in practical reality.


There have been armed lawful revolts in the US.

Civilian firearm posession also conviced Japan that a full on invasion was impossible; without civilian ownership the pre/early war military was pretty impotent.
 
2014-06-12 04:04:06 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: The 17-year-old had been fetching items from her car outside her home in St Louis, Missouri around 11pm when the two men grabbed her, put a gun to her head and forced her up to the front door as a human shield.

The girl's father, 34, saw the men approaching with his teen daughter and grabbed his own gun to fire shots at them from the home where a five-year-old boy was also present.

So I want to rob someone so I wait til the father who doesn't live there is home and instead of busting the door in or a window I take a hostage on the street and try to negotiate my way in? And the father has time to get his gun and shoot me around his daughter while me and my partner can't hit anyone and neither can mom? I guess that could happen...but I won't be surprised if there's more to this story.

McClinton was charged with second-degree murder for the death of his alleged accomplice, and a judge ordered him held on a $1 million cash-only bond, the station reports. A spokesman for the circuit attorney's office told CBS St. Louis that if someone dies during the commission of a felony - even a suspect - murder charges can be filed. The charge is also referred to as felony murder.

Heh.


Robbers and burglers don't really take the time to think things through. Especially ones who have murdered people before. They tend to be very impulsive. A young girl looks like a great target.
 
2014-06-12 04:05:39 PM  

Dimensio: mschwenk: cwolf20: Considering how screwed up society is. I was expecting the father to be arrested for murder, and the daughter to be brought up on charges of being an accessory.

Luckily this didn't happen in Chicago, New York City, Maryland, Washington DC, or Massachusetts.

Residents of those places could still use pepper spray. The Massachusetts legislature even voted to remove the requirement of possessing a firearms identification card for purchasing and possessing pepper spray.


I take it you've never worked with pepper spray before.
 
2014-06-12 04:05:41 PM  

mrshowrules: That's what reality looks like.


Why not both?  I would tend to think that reality would have enough room where there could be both an argument that turns to fisticuffs and domestic violence where intervention is truly needed.  Pretending that only one exists in reality is - well - not dealing with reality.
 
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