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(Daily Mail)   Pop quiz hotshot. Armed robbers are using your daughter as a human shield. What do you do? What do you do?   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 458
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18840 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2014 at 4:36 AM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-12 09:43:12 AM

phenn: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Killing people isn't something we can fix or undo. It's basic.

I get the need to defend yourself. I do. But America is the only country who subscribes to "peace through superior firepower" in its own city streets.

How do YOU not get it? Someone had this man's daughter and was holding a gun to her farking head! It probably had zero to do with killing the dude (mentally) and EVERYTHING to do with saving her life.

Jebus.


Had the father simply allowed the men to go, they could have been arrested later and his daughter returned.
 
2014-06-12 09:44:26 AM

Elliot8654: What happens when the guys who break in are armored and with ak47's


What with like a fishing vest or catchers chest protector like Lanza and the Aurora shooter?
 
2014-06-12 09:44:58 AM

Dimensio: phenn: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Killing people isn't something we can fix or undo. It's basic.

I get the need to defend yourself. I do. But America is the only country who subscribes to "peace through superior firepower" in its own city streets.

How do YOU not get it? Someone had this man's daughter and was holding a gun to her farking head! It probably had zero to do with killing the dude (mentally) and EVERYTHING to do with saving her life.

Jebus.

Had the father simply allowed the men to go, they could have been arrested later and his daughter returned.


Thanks to you, I've been hyper vigilant about checking usernames before replying. Almost bit once again
 
2014-06-12 09:47:17 AM

Elliot8654: Or the fort hood shooter who was surrounded by good guy?



Unarmed good guys.
You've never been on a military base, have you?
 
2014-06-12 09:47:43 AM

starsrift: phenn: starsrift: Well, this ought to be good for a few gun nuts' masturbatory fantasies.

Oh, FFS. Spare me, Bunny Foo Foo.

When some asshole shoots up a bunch of innocent people and your side of the debate makes a point on the event, it's relevant and important.

When someone uses a firearm precisely as it's intended to save the life of a family member and our side of the debate makes a point on the event, it's masturbatory.

Cut me a mother-farking break.

Let's skip the notion of sides for a moment, sit down rationally, and point out a couple things.
1. Everybody had guns. The robbers, the mother, the father.
2. The robbers were holding a gun to the daughter's head while using her as a shield. Presumably that indicates point blank, unmissable range. And if they actually wanted to carry out their threat, at any time, they could've.
3. The parents shot at the robbers 'as they came through the door'. One was accurate enough to miss the teen, one wasn't accurate enough to hit the teen.

Is this exactly "precisely as it's intended"? Arm the robbers, encourage random civilians to shoot at the bad guys with out apparent care or skill (in one case) to ensure that there isn't collateral damage? The bad guys, obviously, didn't want to actually kill her,- they wanted to threaten, or they would've shot the teen. How could easily it have been the teen that died?

Is that the responsible gun ownership you want to idealize?

Let's go to the bonus round, and take guns out of the equation. Desperate hoodlums don't have the money to purchase illegal firearms, and law-abiding homeowners don't have guns either. They're using bats and knives. And well, probably nobody turns up dead, even if it went down the same way, father beating away the two criminals, because it's so much harder to kill someone with a bat or a knife. And the teen, would've been safer, at risk for a broken limb instead of a gunshot wound.

If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how ...


I found another house to target if I turn to a life of crime.
 
2014-06-12 09:48:37 AM

Elliot8654: You don't have it here either.


You thought it necessary to point out that Ronald Regan doesn't really ride a Velociraptor, that is carrying an American flag, while carrying an RPG and shooting a H&K MP7... Riding through burning battlefields with F-22s flying by in the background?

Lol.
 
2014-06-12 09:50:43 AM
campaignofshockandawe.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-06-12 09:51:13 AM

Giltric: Elliot8654: What happens when the guys who break in are armored and with ak47's

What with like a fishing vest or catchers chest protector like Lanza and the Aurora shooter?


Remember the north Hollywood shootout? Or was that before your time?
 
2014-06-12 09:52:53 AM

Elliot8654: Giltric: Elliot8654: What happens when the guys who break in are armored and with ak47's

What with like a fishing vest or catchers chest protector like Lanza and the Aurora shooter?

Remember the north Hollywood shootout? Or was that before your time?


I recall the incident. I assume that such events are now extremely commonplace, thus the absence of any media reports of them.
 
2014-06-12 09:53:24 AM

Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: You don't have it here either.

You thought it necessary to point out that Ronald Regan doesn't really ride a Velociraptor, that is carrying an American flag, while carrying an RPG and shooting a H&K MP7... Riding through burning battlefields with F-22s flying by in the background?

Lol.


I have to point out that some Americans are delusional and think they are the only country that is really "free" and guns are the only thing that keep them free.

Oh, and that the earth is 6000 years old and humans were made exactly as we are by a deity who grants our wishes if we pray hard enough.

'Murica.
 
2014-06-12 09:55:23 AM

Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.


We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)
 
2014-06-12 09:57:13 AM

Dimensio: Contact law enforcement. The duty of police is to protect citizens.


You could not be more wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Call the cops to come clean up the mess. In fact the less police involvement the better.
 
2014-06-12 09:57:49 AM

Elliot8654: I have to point out that some Americans are delusional and think they are the only country that is really "free" and guns are the only thing that keep them free.


www.federaljack.com
 
2014-06-12 09:57:50 AM

joness0154: God, we've got a bunch of pussies in here this morning.


Sorry, I don't measure my manhood by the number of people I'll claim to gun down if the opportunity arises.

It's hard to be a man when you're laying on the ground with your brains splattered all around.
 
2014-06-12 09:58:19 AM

Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)


Fortunately, the XD series of firearms is easily reassembled.

/I would likely not bring the threaded barrel, however.
 
2014-06-12 10:00:45 AM

Click Click D'oh: Giltric: I like Pat Mcnamaras training course.

He makes you run around and lift heavy things and throw them around before shooting so your arms are tired and you're breathing and heart rate is increased.

We have on occasion had people a little over confident in their abilities while performing the state mandated qualifications, so we give them the <Insert company name here> Qualification + Course.

This consists of having them run a lap around the office complex next to our facility.  While they are out there doing that, the range instructor field strips their firearm on the bench, turns out the lights on the range and turns on a beat up old light bar we took off a wrecked car.  When the shooter gets back in, they have to re-assemble their firearm and conduct the prescribed course of fire while the instructor is yelling at them with a bullhorn.

Needless to say, there are some common themes:
1) People new to the profession universally do terribly.
2) Deflating egos is fun.
3) It's well known that you don't take a 1911 to qualification :)


what is does your company do? people pay to come in for some state mandated certification and you guys fark with them, sounds like a good place to avoid...
 
2014-06-12 10:01:24 AM

Elliot8654: Giltric: Elliot8654: What happens when the guys who break in are armored and with ak47's

What with like a fishing vest or catchers chest protector like Lanza and the Aurora shooter?

Remember the north Hollywood shootout? Or was that before your time?


Yeah I remember the token armored badguy story.


I also remember when George Washington killed the British in their sleep on Christmas.

Now cops carry rifles in their patrol car to counter the odd armored badguy scenario.

What have you done to protect yourself from George Washington?

Improvise, adapt and overcome.
 
2014-06-12 10:01:38 AM

Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: I have to point out that some Americans are delusional and think they are the only country that is really "free" and guns are the only thing that keep them free.


This isn't a straw man. Talk to conservative NRA members. They honestly believe this. That without the 2nd amendment, our government would be a tyrannical dictatorship with slave camps.
 
2014-06-12 10:04:50 AM

Elliot8654: Click Click D'oh: Elliot8654: You don't have it here either.

You thought it necessary to point out that Ronald Regan doesn't really ride a Velociraptor, that is carrying an American flag, while carrying an RPG and shooting a H&K MP7... Riding through burning battlefields with F-22s flying by in the background?

Lol.

I have to point out that some Americans are delusional and think they are the only country that is really "free" and guns are the only thing that keep them free.

Oh, and that the earth is 6000 years old and humans were made exactly as we are by a deity who grants our wishes if we pray hard enough.

'Murica.


Could be worse.  We could be the delusional crack dreams of a sleeping god. (random sci-fi/horror short story I read in the 80s).  When he woke up, everything and everyone turned into marijuana hallucinations
 
2014-06-12 10:07:00 AM

Elliot8654: That without the 2nd amendment, our government would be a tyrannical dictatorship with slave camps.


Well, when OWS protested over banksters and wealth inequality a cop walked the line of them and sprayed them all in the face with mace like a bully douchebag and when people protested with guns at the Bundy ranch the government immediately caved and gave back the cattle.
 
2014-06-12 10:08:47 AM

Dimensio: phenn: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Killing people isn't something we can fix or undo. It's basic.

I get the need to defend yourself. I do. But America is the only country who subscribes to "peace through superior firepower" in its own city streets.

How do YOU not get it? Someone had this man's daughter and was holding a gun to her farking head! It probably had zero to do with killing the dude (mentally) and EVERYTHING to do with saving her life.

Jebus.

Had the father simply allowed the men to go, they could have been arrested later and his daughter returned.


sure I'll bite....

Considering one of them has already committed murder, more likely they would have shot the father, mother, and younger brother.  Then, raped the daughter before executing her as well.  Then they would run off with whatever they could carry, lay low for a week or two, and then find some other unsuspecting family and do it all over again.  Might as well stick with what works!

One individuals right to due process does not trump another's rights to life, liberty, property, etc.  Unless you're advocating that every victim ever should just allow rape, murder, etc to happen.
 
2014-06-12 10:09:54 AM

Headso: Elliot8654: That without the 2nd amendment, our government would be a tyrannical dictatorship with slave camps.

Well, when OWS protested over banksters and wealth inequality a cop walked the line of them and sprayed them all in the face with mace like a bully douchebag and when people protested with guns at the Bundy ranch the government immediately caved and gave back the cattle.


Guess what? The protest was legal. The Bundy case was him breaking federal law, and he didn't even recognize the fed government as an entity. Then a bunch of gun loons showed up to join him. So the government decided not to march in and murder all of them when they start shooting.

Yeah. The answer is to break the law but do it with a lot of guns and play chicken with the feds. Great idea.
 
2014-06-12 10:10:58 AM

Headso: what is does your company do?


Contract private security and executive protection services.

Headso: people pay to come in for some state mandated certification and you guys fark with them, sounds like a good place to avoid...


Well:

1) They are our employees.
2) I'm paying for them to take a class from my instructors.

We do have a pressing interest to make sure they meet the highest standards of capability and to identify and rectify any weaknesses there in.  And if you can't hack it, you aren't getting on one of the executive protection teams.  Plain and simple.  I have a product to guarantee the quality of, just like any other business.


Elliot8654: Talk to conservative NRA members. They honestly believe this.


You think the average NRA member believes that the United States is the only free nation in the world and it's only because the US has guns?

You know, I just got back from the Bianchi cup not to long ago.  This year I met some great competitors there from Germany, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and the UK.  Mind 'splaining to us how all these non-Americans had guns?
 
2014-06-12 10:12:15 AM

Elliot8654: phenn: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Killing people isn't something we can fix or undo. It's basic.

I get the need to defend yourself. I do. But America is the only country who subscribes to "peace through superior firepower" in its own city streets.

How do YOU not get it? Someone had this man's daughter and was holding a gun to her farking head! It probably had zero to do with killing the dude (mentally) and EVERYTHING to do with saving her life.

Jebus.

I get it. I get it. Defend your daughter.
It's the whole societal love affair with guns and power.

This one case isn't the point. What happens when the guys who break in are armored and with ak47's? Then your average family will be stocking anti tank rounds.

It's a big dumb escalation that is happening almost nowhere else in the world.


that's why an ar15 makes a good home defense gun - the rounds actually can pierce most body armor, but stop before entering your neighbor's house - better than many common handgun rounds.

no escalation necessary -

part of the reason us "gun nuts" got mad when the hoplophobes wanted to ban them.
 
2014-06-12 10:12:22 AM

starsrift: phenn: starsrift: Well, this ought to be good for a few gun nuts' masturbatory fantasies.

Oh, FFS. Spare me, Bunny Foo Foo.

When some asshole shoots up a bunch of innocent people and your side of the debate makes a point on the event, it's relevant and important.

When someone uses a firearm precisely as it's intended to save the life of a family member and our side of the debate makes a point on the event, it's masturbatory.

Cut me a mother-farking break.

Let's skip the notion of sides for a moment, sit down rationally, and point out a couple things.
1. Everybody had guns. The robbers, the mother, the father.
2. The robbers were holding a gun to the daughter's head while using her as a shield. Presumably that indicates point blank, unmissable range. And if they actually wanted to carry out their threat, at any time, they could've.
3. The parents shot at the robbers 'as they came through the door'. One was accurate enough to miss the teen, one wasn't accurate enough to hit the teen.

Is this exactly "precisely as it's intended"? Arm the robbers, encourage random civilians to shoot at the bad guys with out apparent care or skill (in one case) to ensure that there isn't collateral damage? The bad guys, obviously, didn't want to actually kill her,- they wanted to threaten, or they would've shot the teen. How could easily it have been the teen that died?

Is that the responsible gun ownership you want to idealize?

Let's go to the bonus round, and take guns out of the equation. Desperate hoodlums don't have the money to purchase illegal firearms, and law-abiding homeowners don't have guns either. They're using bats and knives. And well, probably nobody turns up dead, even if it went down the same way, father beating away the two criminals, because it's so much harder to kill someone with a bat or a knife. And the teen, would've been safer, at risk for a broken limb instead of a gunshot wound.

If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.


For starters, there is at least one criminal we won't be using tax money to feed and house.
 
2014-06-12 10:12:25 AM

ciderczar: Dirty J1: You see! For all you anti gun vaginas out there, this is the good side of gun ownership. What would have been the alternative? Let them barge in, rape the daughter, kill the dad, rape and kill the mom, then kill the daughter? I can't see a more plausible solution than what this guy did. Bravo.

Wear a rubber? No daughter, no human shield, no robbery.


...... Not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious. Either way, not a valid argument.
 
2014-06-12 10:16:28 AM

Elliot8654: Guess what? The protest was legal. The Bundy case was him breaking federal law, and he didn't even recognize the fed government as an entity. Then a bunch of gun loons showed up to join him. So the government decided not to march in and murder all of them when they start shooting.


both protests were legal but only in one case did  the protesters get maced by a fat bully of a cop.
 
2014-06-12 10:17:02 AM

starsrift: Dirty J1: You see! For all you anti gun vaginas out there, this is the good side of gun ownership. What would have been the alternative? Let them barge in, rape the daughter, kill the dad, rape and kill the mom, then kill the daughter? I can't see a more plausible solution than what this guy did. Bravo.

Well, everybody knows that the presence of a gun or not isn't the issue. Dad could've done the same actions with a knife, or so I've been led to believe.


Lol you've been led astray then my friend. Ever heard "don't bring a knife to a gun fight?" If I were the criminal with a gun and he pulled a knife, I'd laugh and shoot him.
 
2014-06-12 10:17:45 AM
Yeah, that sounds pretty damn reckless.
 
2014-06-12 10:18:52 AM

Click Click D'oh: They are our employees.


that makes sense then, the other post read like you were some company that certifies people.
 
2014-06-12 10:19:04 AM

Dirty J1: starsrift: Dirty J1: You see! For all you anti gun vaginas out there, this is the good side of gun ownership. What would have been the alternative? Let them barge in, rape the daughter, kill the dad, rape and kill the mom, then kill the daughter? I can't see a more plausible solution than what this guy did. Bravo.

Well, everybody knows that the presence of a gun or not isn't the issue. Dad could've done the same actions with a knife, or so I've been led to believe.

Lol you've been led astray then my friend. Ever heard "don't bring a knife to a gun fight?" If I were the criminal with a gun and he pulled a knife, I'd laugh and shoot him.


He was being sarcastic. LOL
 
2014-06-12 10:19:12 AM

Headso: Elliot8654: Guess what? The protest was legal. The Bundy case was him breaking federal law, and he didn't even recognize the fed government as an entity. Then a bunch of gun loons showed up to join him. So the government decided not to march in and murder all of them when they start shooting.

both protests were legal but only in one case did  the protesters get maced by a fat bully of a cop.


Yeah except what Bundy had done was illegal (grazing on federal land without authorization) and what the support guys did was illegal (transporting firearms across state lines to take up arms against the government).
 
2014-06-12 10:20:43 AM

starsrift: If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.


The girl got away unharmed, one of the thugs is dead, and the other is wounded and will spend most of his life in jail.

Your version is "Let the criminals have whatever the hell they want", and it is *not* better.
 
2014-06-12 10:22:58 AM

JuggleGeek: starsrift: If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.

The girl got away unharmed, one of the thugs is dead, and the other is wounded and will spend most of his life in jail.

Your version is "Let the criminals have whatever the hell they want", and it is *not* better.


If the father had not been armed, the robbers would also not have been in possession of firearms.
 
2014-06-12 10:24:58 AM

JuggleGeek: starsrift: If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.

The girl got away unharmed, one of the thugs is dead, and the other is wounded and will spend most of his life in jail.

Your version is "Let the criminals have whatever the hell they want", and it is *not* better.


Now, please demonstrate how you know they would have killed the girl, and not just taken money and fled, to be caught later?

We have what actually happened, and we have your blind conjecture as to what you think might happen if they weren't armed.

Don't forget, a gunman lost to a college kid with pepper spray. Guns aren't the end all answer.
 
2014-06-12 10:26:13 AM

Elliot8654: Headso: Elliot8654: Guess what? The protest was legal. The Bundy case was him breaking federal law, and he didn't even recognize the fed government as an entity. Then a bunch of gun loons showed up to join him. So the government decided not to march in and murder all of them when they start shooting.

both protests were legal but only in one case did  the protesters get maced by a fat bully of a cop.

Yeah except what Bundy had done was illegal (grazing on federal land without authorization) and what the support guys did was illegal (transporting firearms across state lines to take up arms against the government).


The response was to cave in to the protesters demands but when some college kids were blocking a footpath they get maced. Also, they weren't taking up arms against the government, they were protesting government overreach and holding guns while they did it.
 
2014-06-12 10:27:17 AM
FTFA:  The family has not been identified...

The police didn't identify the family.  But the media has no problem posting a picture of their house, with a car out front, with the plates clearly visible and readable.

What a bunch of idiots.

Kudos to the parents for a job well done.
 
2014-06-12 10:28:00 AM

Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.


Maybe.  If you catch them, and if they have the ability to pay for it.

But if they had gotten in the house and disarmed the parents, we don't know what they would have done.  Maybe they would have taken what they wanted and killed the three witnesses.  One of them had been charged with murder before, with the case dropped due to lack of witnesses.
 
2014-06-12 10:28:58 AM

Headso: Elliot8654: Headso: Elliot8654: Guess what? The protest was legal. The Bundy case was him breaking federal law, and he didn't even recognize the fed government as an entity. Then a bunch of gun loons showed up to join him. So the government decided not to march in and murder all of them when they start shooting.

both protests were legal but only in one case did  the protesters get maced by a fat bully of a cop.

Yeah except what Bundy had done was illegal (grazing on federal land without authorization) and what the support guys did was illegal (transporting firearms across state lines to take up arms against the government).

The response was to cave in to the protesters demands but when some college kids were blocking a footpath they get maced. Also, they weren't taking up arms against the government, they were protesting government overreach and holding guns while they did it.


Aside from the head of one of the militia groups saying "if federal agents try to Make us stand down, we will not hesitate to open fire to defend our rights."?

Or maybe this? "It appears the revolution of which the couple (Las Vegas wal mart shooters) spoke is the exact one that has been promised by the 'nonviolent patriots' at the Bundy Ranch.
 
2014-06-12 10:29:33 AM

Elliot8654: Now, please demonstrate how you know they would have killed the girl, and not just taken money and fled, to be caught later?

 
I don't know, and neither do you.  But if it's my family, I don't want to trust the criminal to do the right thing.
 
2014-06-12 10:29:51 AM

JuggleGeek: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Maybe.  If you catch them, and if they have the ability to pay for it.

But if they had gotten in the house and disarmed the parents, we don't know what they would have done.  Maybe they would have taken what they wanted and killed the three witnesses.  One of them had been charged with murder before, with the case dropped due to lack of witnesses.


So innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to him, and you just speculate worst case scenario, so kill them and ask questions later.

Wonderful.
 
2014-06-12 10:30:05 AM

Elliot8654: JuggleGeek: starsrift: If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.

The girl got away unharmed, one of the thugs is dead, and the other is wounded and will spend most of his life in jail.

Your version is "Let the criminals have whatever the hell they want", and it is *not* better.

Now, please demonstrate how you know they would have killed the girl, and not just taken money and fled, to be caught later?

We have what actually happened, and we have your blind conjecture as to what you think might happen if they weren't armed.

Don't forget, a gunman lost to a college kid with pepper spray. Guns aren't the end all answer.


It could have went your way....or it could have went this way....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_mu rd ers

If you can see into the furture why are you posting on Fark instead of reaping the powerball millions while sitting on a beach drinking out of a coconut?
 
2014-06-12 10:30:48 AM

Headso: Elliot8654: Headso: Elliot8654: Guess what? The protest was legal. The Bundy case was him breaking federal law, and he didn't even recognize the fed government as an entity. Then a bunch of gun loons showed up to join him. So the government decided not to march in and murder all of them when they start shooting.

both protests were legal but only in one case did  the protesters get maced by a fat bully of a cop.

Yeah except what Bundy had done was illegal (grazing on federal land without authorization) and what the support guys did was illegal (transporting firearms across state lines to take up arms against the government).

The response was to cave in to the protesters demands but when some college kids were blocking a footpath they get maced. Also, they weren't taking up arms against the government, they were protesting government overreach and holding guns while they did it.


You are correct; enforcing existing laws is "overreach".
 
2014-06-12 10:31:14 AM

animekev: Doesn't this seem fishy to anyone else?  2 guys want into a specific house, so they grab a girl to force her to open the door, and 2 armed parents are waiting for them?  This doesn't sound like a robbery.  Hostage taking is a big deal.  This sounds like they wanted in to that specific house, and had a good idea what might be waiting for them.  Sounds to me like this was the result of something illegal, like a fight between rival drug dealers.


Or it's just, you know, North City.
 
2014-06-12 10:32:01 AM

animekev: Doesn't this seem fishy to anyone else?  2 guys want into a specific house, so they grab a girl to force her to open the door, and 2 armed parents are waiting for them?  This doesn't sound like a robbery.  Hostage taking is a big deal.  This sounds like they wanted in to that specific house, and had a good idea what might be waiting for them.  Sounds to me like this was the result of something illegal, like a fight between rival drug dealers.


Or they knew the daughter
 
2014-06-12 10:32:06 AM

Elliot8654: JuggleGeek: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Maybe.  If you catch them, and if they have the ability to pay for it.

But if they had gotten in the house and disarmed the parents, we don't know what they would have done.  Maybe they would have taken what they wanted and killed the three witnesses.  One of them had been charged with murder before, with the case dropped due to lack of witnesses.

So innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to him, and you just speculate worst case scenario, so kill them and ask questions later.

Wonderful.


We crafted our indefinite detention on your Diplock Courts....don't start preaching about innocent before guilt.
 
2014-06-12 10:32:43 AM

Giltric: Elliot8654: JuggleGeek: starsrift: If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll entertain it. Tell me how guns made this better.

The girl got away unharmed, one of the thugs is dead, and the other is wounded and will spend most of his life in jail.

Your version is "Let the criminals have whatever the hell they want", and it is *not* better.

Now, please demonstrate how you know they would have killed the girl, and not just taken money and fled, to be caught later?

We have what actually happened, and we have your blind conjecture as to what you think might happen if they weren't armed.

Don't forget, a gunman lost to a college kid with pepper spray. Guns aren't the end all answer.

It could have went your way....or it could have went this way....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_mu rd ers

If you can see into the furture why are you posting on Fark instead of reaping the powerball millions while sitting on a beach drinking out of a coconut?


I can't. And neither can you. So the first thing that has to stop is people claiming all the good that guns do just by being ubiquitous in America.
"Well see, if they are armed this wouldn't have happened." Is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

"Think of what might have happened if they weren't armed" is a close second.
 
2014-06-12 10:32:53 AM

danielscissorhands: Daily Fail Headline:

"Father shoots dead armed robbers using his teenage daughter as human shield during home invasion"

That wasn't very nice of the father to use his daughter as a human shield.


All's fair when fighting zombie robbers.
 
2014-06-12 10:33:14 AM

JuggleGeek: Elliot8654: Now, please demonstrate how you know they would have killed the girl, and not just taken money and fled, to be caught later?

I don't know, and neither do you.  But if it's my family, I don't want to trust the criminal to do the right thing.


That is the difference between you and civilized persons. Civilized persons, like Elliot8654, realise that civilized laws always err on the side of the armed criminal. That is why people in England who kill criminal home invaders face a prison sentence for not giving a violent attacker the benefit of the doubt.
 
2014-06-12 10:33:23 AM

Elliot8654: JuggleGeek: Elliot8654: How do you not understand this? If someone steals something, they can be arrested and return it. If they break something, you can make them pay for it.

Maybe.  If you catch them, and if they have the ability to pay for it.

But if they had gotten in the house and disarmed the parents, we don't know what they would have done.  Maybe they would have taken what they wanted and killed the three witnesses.  One of them had been charged with murder before, with the case dropped due to lack of witnesses.

So innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to him, and you just speculate worst case scenario, so kill them and ask questions later.

Wonderful.


Are you really innocent once you take a hostage?
 
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