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(Complex)   Not news: Game of Thrones book nerd airs his grievances about the HBO show. Fark: George R. R. Martin   (complex.com) divider line 142
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6179 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 11 Jun 2014 at 6:25 PM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-11 04:00:48 PM
George complaing about the Iron Throne is nothing new.  He's stated before that in his mind the throne much, much, much bigger and taller than the chair they display on the show.  There are drawings of Joffrey in it that make him truly look miniscule.
 
2014-06-11 04:11:52 PM
STFU and cash your checks, George.
 
2014-06-11 04:38:09 PM
His second point is worth noting: "He laments the impact of some subtle tweaks made by the show's writers. "Small changes can lead to big changes...the butterfly effects are accumulating."

True enough IF you care how much the show differs...I'm enjoying the differences myself. Honestly its nice to be surprised.

However, the example of the deaths of Pyp and Grenn last Sunday - in the books they're still alive and who knows how George will use them in the future/how integral to the final storylines they will be? Sure, you can sub some other people but as George said the butterfly effects are adding up and too many may mean the show takes a path on its own.
 
2014-06-11 04:40:52 PM
The level of idiocy in this article is completely off the charts, even by current Internet content farm standards.

He would prefer the seasons last 13 episodes, not 10. "With 13 episodes, we could include smaller scenes that we had to cut, scenes that make the story deeper and richer," he said. Perhaps he does not realize just how expensive this show is to make already?

Except he talks about how expensive battle scenes are and such in the original NY Times article.

He laments the impact of some subtle tweaks made by the show's writers. "Small changes can lead to big changes...the butterfly effects are accumulating." To that we say: is it really important which minor character from Book 1 was implicated in a murder in Book 4? Does that actually matter? No chance.

The scene where Sansa covers for Petyr Baelish in front of the Lords of the Vale, something entirely new that both shows that character adapting far faster to the "game" and also aligning herself more intimately with Baelish than in the novels, doesn't happen if the relatively minor character that originally takes the blame for Lysa's death is around in the show. Don't be f*cking stupid.

The article also seems to be completely ignorant of the fact that GRRM is an executive producer and writer on the show himself. Everyone should just do themselves a favor and read the original NYT article.
 
2014-06-11 06:06:53 PM

gopher321: True enough IF you care how much the show differs...I'm enjoying the differences myself. Honestly its nice to be surprised.

However, the example of the deaths of Pyp and Grenn last Sunday - in the books they're still alive and who knows how George will use them in the future/how integral to the final storylines they will be? Sure, you can sub some other people but as George said the butterfly effects are adding up and too many may mean the show takes a path on its own.


All of the HBO/Showtime series that were developed from books took major turns, for various reasons (in my opinion, because the writing is dreadful in "Dexter" and "True Blood") and having read a few "True Blood" books and one "Dexter" book (we had a few blackouts a couple of years ago... nothing to do all day) the shows were better for them.  Well, maybe not the end of "Dexter" but definitely "True Blood," as the author seems to have an understanding of sex the way a giggling 13-year-old virgin does.  Plus, they switched some characters and kept some around who made the show fun, who died early in the books.   I'm pretty sure I am going to be dissatisfied with the final season, but... such is life.

As for the 10 episodes vs 12 or 13, I do agree. I hate the switch to these 10-episode seasons on all the shows. When it's a year between them, they could give us a little more, no?
 
2014-06-11 06:31:32 PM
Can't just link to the NY Times article subby?
 
2014-06-11 06:37:57 PM

gopher321: However, the example of the deaths of Pyp and Grenn last Sunday - in the books they're still alive and who knows how George will use them in the future/how integral to the final storylines they will be? Sure, you can sub some other people but as George said the butterfly effects are adding up and too many may mean the show takes a path on its own.


it might be the next legend of the seeker in a few seasons
 
2014-06-11 06:41:57 PM

gopher321: His second point is worth noting: "He laments the impact of some subtle tweaks made by the show's writers. "Small changes can lead to big changes...the butterfly effects are accumulating."

True enough IF you care how much the show differs...I'm enjoying the differences myself. Honestly its nice to be surprised.

However, the example of the deaths of Pyp and Grenn last Sunday - in the books they're still alive and who knows how George will use them in the future/how integral to the final storylines they will be? Sure, you can sub some other people but as George said the butterfly effects are adding up and too many may mean the show takes a path on its own.


Good. We really don't need a full season for Feast of Crows.
 
2014-06-11 06:48:08 PM
I'm getting tired of the show. The big events are not epic enough. The assault on the Wall was lame. The duel was lame. The limited television budget is not doing justice to the story.
 
2014-06-11 06:48:09 PM
Given the glacial pace of his writing, it was obvious for a few years now that the show was going to have to go a different path than the books.

They'll probably end up roughly with the same ending, anyways.

/really hope we don't spend all of next year with the Ironborn and Dorne shenanigans, though it'll be interesting to see if a character we haven't seen since the first episode will be recast or even used.
 
2014-06-11 06:55:18 PM
I mean really! Tyrion is still alive in the TV show.

I don't want to spoil the books for anyone, but remember when he Battle of the Blackwater? When you send a motherfuggin kingsguard to kill a midget, it doesn't fail.
 
2014-06-11 06:57:42 PM

Strolpol: Given the glacial pace of his writing, it was obvious for a few years now that the show was going to have to go a different path than the books.

They'll probably end up roughly with the same ending, anyways.

/really hope we don't spend all of next year with the Ironborn and Dorne shenanigans, though it'll be interesting to see if a character we haven't seen since the first episode will be recast or even used.


I'm not convinced this will ever end. The books, at least.
 
2014-06-11 07:01:12 PM
Martin should not complain since the show is a brazillion times better than the books. All the things that happen in the books are just told in passing and off the page or barely described.

When jaime lannister was captured it was told in passing over a paragraph or two. Wasn't the red part of the red wedding maybe 2 to 4 pages.

His fire and ice books make great television/flim pitch material and the tv show is better for it.

Also, the Cercei character is written like that Harry Turtledove character that owned coffee shop in his alternate civil war/wwi/wwii series. You want her dead not because she is evil or malicious, you want her dead because she will not shut up about the same annoying thing every single paragraph.
 
2014-06-11 07:05:46 PM
I'm sure the nudity is spot on.
 
2014-06-11 07:08:47 PM

insertsnarkyusername: Can't just link to the NY Times article subby?


FARK has had problems with the NYT paywall in the past.

Not Smits
 
2014-06-11 07:08:53 PM
I guess I'm the only one that enjoyed the wall stuff. Though, I enjoy almost anything that isn't Dany Targaryean wasting screen time, really. Which is all her scenes....
 
2014-06-11 07:09:04 PM

StrikitRich: George complaing about the Iron Throne is nothing new.  He's stated before that in his mind the throne much, much, much bigger and taller than the chair they display on the show.  There are drawings of Joffrey in it that make him truly look miniscule.


Yeah, this is the only part where I'm with him.

This woulda been so cool to see.

wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net

But the one on screen is good too :)
 
2014-06-11 07:10:51 PM
delibrosyviajes.com

Yep, that's the picture
 
2014-06-11 07:12:40 PM

StrikitRich: insertsnarkyusername: Can't just link to the NY Times article subby?

FARK has had problems with the NYT paywall in the past.

Not Smits


Makes sense. Thanks for the answer.
 
2014-06-11 07:13:04 PM

StrikitRich: [delibrosyviajes.com image 850x478]

Yep, that's the picture


Woah. THAT's a throne.
 
2014-06-11 07:15:19 PM
Take the musician Marillion, from Season 1. On HBO, Marillion is maimed - his tongue plucked out - at the whim of King Joffrey and then vanishes from the show. That isn't the case in the books, where he served as the fall guy in Lord Petyr Baelish's murder of Lysa Arryn (shown on HBO this season). "So that has to be changed" for the TV show, Mr. Martin said of her murder. "The butterfly effects are accumulating."

Exactly. It's like Peter Jackson's 'Lord of the Rings' movies taking out Tom Bombadil. You think he's an inconsequential character but he serves a very important purpose--he gives the hobbits barrow-blades, which Merry later uses to wound the Witch King of Angmar during the Battle of Pelennor Fields, thus allowing Dernhelm (Eowyn) to kill the Nazgul.

But there's no Tom Bombadil in the movies, meaning no barrow-blades, meaning the filmmakers had a major plot-hole when it came time to film the Witch King scene!

...yes, they did just do the scene as written without mentioning barrow-blades... but it's not the same. You can't simply write out inconsequential characters and cul-de-sac plots without it affecting everything else further down the story. Butterfly effect!

Without Marillion there is simply no possible way to tell the story of A Song of Ice and Fire. HBO has made a terrible mistake.
 
2014-06-11 07:15:45 PM

Strolpol: Given the glacial pace of his writing, it was obvious for a few years now that the show was going to have to go a different path than the books.

They'll probably end up roughly with the same ending, anyways.

/really hope we don't spend all of next year with the Ironborn and Dorne shenanigans, though it'll be interesting to see if a character we haven't seen since the first episode will be recast or even used.


yep. And at the pace he writes, us television viewer will finally  get to be smug for knowing what's gonna happen first.
 
2014-06-11 07:25:32 PM
He'd like more input in the costumes.

Of course he would. He'd write endless paragraphs to the costuming staff describing each on in excruciating detail.

I'm surprised he didn't complain they don't let him cater the feasts.
 
2014-06-11 07:41:46 PM
That's why he made books instead of a TV show. The supposedly imposing Great Hall in King's Landing is not a whole lot more majestic than the throne room in Blackadder II.

The subtle tweaks bug me. A lot of the time they're pointless. Waiting forever to introduce the Reeds, ignoring Ramsay Snow's existence then making him a huge character, this kind of stuff just makes the show more confusing to newcomers. Other things like bringing Jaime to Joffrey's wedding, keeping Loras from the Kingsguard, etc seem to be done for no reason at all.
 
2014-06-11 07:54:04 PM
Was there even a milisecond of doubt that GRR would farking shiat himself over everything about the series?

He writes in painful detail about pointless shiat. The show is produced to be fun for people who aren't autistic.
 
2014-06-11 08:03:18 PM

McGrits: Martin should not complain since the show is a brazillion times better than the books. All the things that happen in the books are just told in passing and off the page or barely described.

When jaime lannister was captured it was told in passing over a paragraph or two. Wasn't the red part of the red wedding maybe 2 to 4 pages.

His fire and ice books make great television/flim pitch material and the tv show is better for it.

Also, the Cercei character is written like that Harry Turtledove character that owned coffee shop in his alternate civil war/wwi/wwii series. You want her dead not because she is evil or malicious, you want her dead because she will not shut up about the same annoying thing every single paragraph.


The Red Wedding was much better in the books.  I'm pretty sure it lasted longer than 2-4 pages as well.  The back and forth between Arya and Catelyn's chapters over that sequence was great.

As for the Jaimie capturing, didn't that happen offscreen on the show?

I do think the way the show handled Cat freeing Jaimie was probably one of the worst changes they made.  Her actions from the book alone made her look stupid.  No need to amp that up even further.
 
2014-06-11 08:11:25 PM
I'm getting tired of the dragon lady even though I liked her at first. I wish people would start coming together. Everybody is so spread apart. I'm ready for stories to collide. Tyrion is the most exciting story for me at the moment. It's still all really good.
 
2014-06-11 08:12:25 PM

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: McGrits: Martin should not complain since the show is a brazillion times better than the books. All the things that happen in the books are just told in passing and off the page or barely described.

When jaime lannister was captured it was told in passing over a paragraph or two. Wasn't the red part of the red wedding maybe 2 to 4 pages.

His fire and ice books make great television/flim pitch material and the tv show is better for it.

Also, the Cercei character is written like that Harry Turtledove character that owned coffee shop in his alternate civil war/wwi/wwii series. You want her dead not because she is evil or malicious, you want her dead because she will not shut up about the same annoying thing every single paragraph.

The Red Wedding was much better in the books.  I'm pretty sure it lasted longer than 2-4 pages as well.  The back and forth between Arya and Catelyn's chapters over that sequence was great.

As for the Jaimie capturing, didn't that happen offscreen on the show?

I do think the way the show handled Cat freeing Jaimie was probably one of the worst changes they made.  Her actions from the book alone made her look stupid.  No need to amp that up even further.


I like Cat in the show better for two reasons: her regret over her treatment of Jon and the fact that she didn't spend a bunch of time watching her dad wither and die.
 
2014-06-11 08:24:14 PM
George: STFU and GBTW. We're waiting on 2 more books from you, stop spending time on pointless worrying about the TV show, and get to writing.
 
2014-06-11 08:24:51 PM

LeroyBourne: I'm sure the nudity is spot on.


www.reactiongifs.us
 
2014-06-11 08:25:42 PM

moothemagiccow: The supposedly imposing Great Hall in King's Landing is not a whole lot more majestic than the throne room in Blackadder II.


I think that's a lame complaint.  Our idea of majestic is not the same idea of majestic that someone who lived in those times would have.  The throne room in Blackadder II was not that far from the truth.  When we think of castles, we think of palaces like Buckingham and Marseilles, when the truth of castles was a lot more dingy most of the time.  Castles were fortresses, that people happened to live and work in, they weren't grand residences like palaces were.  I think the great hall in the show is far more believable than some grand, ornate, gold-covered cathedral-type thing.

Look at most old castles; to us they're mainly pretty small, not really that impressive, and would have been shiat to live in.  To people who lived in mud huts and farm houses, they were frightening and imposing.  If they had a bit of purple cloth and gold, they'd be far more majestic than anything most people had.

Kings Landing has 4-500,000 people tops and was until "recently" the main city in a very small local kingdom.  How majestic could it really be?
 
2014-06-11 08:29:46 PM
needs more tits

MORE TITS
 
2014-06-11 08:34:20 PM
Boil all teh leatherz!
 
2014-06-11 08:37:38 PM

Darth Macho: Take the musician Marillion, from Season 1. On HBO, Marillion is maimed - his tongue plucked out - at the whim of King Joffrey and then vanishes from the show. That isn't the case in the books, where he served as the fall guy in Lord Petyr Baelish's murder of Lysa Arryn (shown on HBO this season). "So that has to be changed" for the TV show, Mr. Martin said of her murder. "The butterfly effects are accumulating."

Exactly. It's like Peter Jackson's 'Lord of the Rings' movies taking out Tom Bombadil. You think he's an inconsequential character but he serves a very important purpose--he gives the hobbits barrow-blades, which Merry later uses to wound the Witch King of Angmar during the Battle of Pelennor Fields, thus allowing Dernhelm (Eowyn) to kill the Nazgul.

But there's no Tom Bombadil in the movies, meaning no barrow-blades, meaning the filmmakers had a major plot-hole when it came time to film the Witch King scene!

...yes, they did just do the scene as written without mentioning barrow-blades... but it's not the same. You can't simply write out inconsequential characters and cul-de-sac plots without it affecting everything else further down the story. Butterfly effect!

Without Marillion there is simply no possible way to tell the story of A Song of Ice and Fire. HBO has made a terrible mistake.


The same was true of the Harry Potter movies. They left out all sorts of things that the filmmakers deemed "unimportant" in the earlier movies, and then when those plot threads became MAJORLY important in the last books, they rushed to squeeze in everything they could in the last two movies... But in doing so, they lessened the impact of the reveals, and completely ignored other important details.

I'd love it if they'd make a Harry Potter series on TV with 10-13 episodes per season, so they can really flesh out the story like it was in the books.

/Neville was robbed
//So was Snape
 
2014-06-11 08:39:00 PM
Season 4 has been annoying. There are too many episodes where only one or two of the subplots advance. In previous seasons, most episodes seemed to involve all  7 or 8 plotlines.

I get that they have cut back on how many plotlines are treated per episode so they don't have to pay the actors. But it lends more weight to GRRMs idea that they should have 13 episodes per season/book. Then it would make sense to go into detail about 2 or 3 plot lines each episode and alternate through them.
 
2014-06-11 08:42:02 PM
As long as they're not going five years in between seasons, I'm okay.
 
2014-06-11 08:42:41 PM

AutumnWind: I'm getting tired of the dragon lady even though I liked her at first. I wish people would start coming together. Everybody is so spread apart. I'm ready for stories to collide. Tyrion is the most exciting story for me at the moment. It's still all really good.


In the books, you'd continue being tired of her for about three books worth of material. The show is doing a better job on her story so far, but there's only so much you can do.

And George has too much time on his hands doing all this complaining. He should be writing his ass off right now or they'll finish the story for him.
 
2014-06-11 08:44:36 PM

if_i_really_have_to: moothemagiccow: The supposedly imposing Great Hall in King's Landing is not a whole lot more majestic than the throne room in Blackadder II.

I think that's a lame complaint.  Our idea of majestic is not the same idea of majestic that someone who lived in those times would have.  The throne room in Blackadder II was not that far from the truth.  When we think of castles, we think of palaces like Buckingham and Marseilles, when the truth of castles was a lot more dingy most of the time.  Castles were fortresses, that people happened to live and work in, they weren't grand residences like palaces were.  I think the great hall in the show is far more believable than some grand, ornate, gold-covered cathedral-type thing.

Look at most old castles; to us they're mainly pretty small, not really that impressive, and would have been shiat to live in.  To people who lived in mud huts and farm houses, they were frightening and imposing.  If they had a bit of purple cloth and gold, they'd be far more majestic than anything most people had.

Kings Landing has 4-500,000 people tops and was until "recently" the main city in a very small local kingdom.  How majestic could it really be?


ASOIAF world is really weird. It basically has stagnated at medieval technology for THOUSANDS of years.

What would the cities in such a world look like? Without the constant renewal of modern technology, do they become more ornate and built up?

What is stopping them from moving into the enlightenment?

Nerd questions bro.
 
2014-06-11 09:03:16 PM

ThatBillmanGuy: I guess I'm the only one that enjoyed the wall stuff. Though, I enjoy almost anything that isn't Dany Targaryean wasting screen time, really. Which is all her scenes....


You're in the majority actually. Both book readers and show watchers overwhelmingly enjoyed it compared to those who did not. TBH, I'm really looking forward to see how the show deals with the next couple of mediocre books. There's some good stuff in there but it's far and between. I have faith in the show writers though. Count me in as one if the book readers who is starting to enjoy the show better.


/screw book readers who post spoilers
 
2014-06-11 09:14:17 PM

VonSchmegalton: ThatBillmanGuy: I guess I'm the only one that enjoyed the wall stuff. Though, I enjoy almost anything that isn't Dany Targaryean wasting screen time, really. Which is all her scenes....

You're in the majority actually. Both book readers and show watchers overwhelmingly enjoyed it compared to those who did not. TBH, I'm really looking forward to see how the show deals with the next couple of mediocre books. There's some good stuff in there but it's far and between. I have faith in the show writers though. Count me in as one if the book readers who is starting to enjoy the show better.


/screw book readers who post spoilers


It's not our fault that you have touched a book that was available for years.

/They were on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.
 
2014-06-11 09:18:05 PM
I Liked the Nightflyers movie.
 
2014-06-11 09:24:22 PM

Clash City Farker: I'm getting tired of the show. The big events are not epic enough. The assault on the Wall was lame. The duel was lame. The limited television budget is not doing justice to the story.


The last episode cost somewhere between 10 and 12 million dollars.  I'm not sure what you're expecting.  And you can't tell the story in a three hour movie that comes out every two years.
 
2014-06-11 09:25:25 PM

insertsnarkyusername: VonSchmegalton: ThatBillmanGuy: I guess I'm the only one that enjoyed the wall stuff. Though, I enjoy almost anything that isn't Dany Targaryean wasting screen time, really. Which is all her scenes....

You're in the majority actually. Both book readers and show watchers overwhelmingly enjoyed it compared to those who did not. TBH, I'm really looking forward to see how the show deals with the next couple of mediocre books. There's some good stuff in there but it's far and between. I have faith in the show writers though. Count me in as one if the book readers who is starting to enjoy the show better.


/screw book readers who post spoilers

It's not our fault that you have touched a book that was available for years.

/They were on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.


And this is the best way to start a nerd rage battle in any GoT thread.

/I just think it's impolite to do it knowing that there's a good chance you'll ruin a badass storyline for somebody.
//I don't have a problem with people who give spoiler alerts for those who just want to watch the show
 
2014-06-11 09:28:35 PM

VonSchmegalton: /I just think it's impolite to do it knowing that there's a good chance you'll ruin a badass storyline for somebody.


That is exactly why those angry little nerd book farkers do it.
 
2014-06-11 09:41:13 PM
 
2014-06-11 09:49:17 PM

McGrits: Also, the Cercei character is written like that Harry Turtledove character that owned coffee shop in his alternate civil war/wwi/wwii series. You want her dead not because she is evil or malicious, you want her dead because she will not shut up about the same annoying thing every single paragraph.


i HATED that lady
 
2014-06-11 09:50:01 PM

Strolpol: Given the glacial pace of his writing, it was obvious for a few years now that he's going to keel over stone dead before he finishes the show was going to have to go a different path than the books.


Esc7: What is stopping them from moving into the enlightenment?


The fact that magic exists in their world makes "natural philosophy" a.k.a. science a lot harder to get off the ground.  I mean their planet doesn't even have seasons you can predict, I doubt they'd even make it as far as epicycles.  So they wallow in the sensible medieval supersition of a demon-haunted world that actually has demons.
 
2014-06-11 09:50:46 PM
Perhaps he does not realize just how expensive this show is to make already?

Perhaps this snarky author doesn't understand how much money HBO really makes. $15 or so a month times how many subscribers worldwide?
 
2014-06-11 09:50:56 PM

StrikitRich: [delibrosyviajes.com image 850x478]

Yep, that's the picture


That's how Fat Boy pictures it, just like a hairy vag.
 
2014-06-11 09:51:58 PM

VonSchmegalton: insertsnarkyusername: VonSchmegalton: ThatBillmanGuy: I guess I'm the only one that enjoyed the wall stuff. Though, I enjoy almost anything that isn't Dany Targaryean wasting screen time, really. Which is all her scenes....

You're in the majority actually. Both book readers and show watchers overwhelmingly enjoyed it compared to those who did not. TBH, I'm really looking forward to see how the show deals with the next couple of mediocre books. There's some good stuff in there but it's far and between. I have faith in the show writers though. Count me in as one if the book readers who is starting to enjoy the show better.


/screw book readers who post spoilers

It's not our fault that you have touched a book that was available for years.

/They were on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.

And this is the best way to start a nerd rage battle in any GoT thread.

/I just think it's impolite to do it knowing that there's a good chance you'll ruin a badass storyline for somebody.
//I don't have a problem with people who give spoiler alerts for those who just want to watch the show


Vader is Luke's father.

Bruce Willis was dead the whole time.

Soylent Green is people.

Rosebud is the sled.

Jesus dies and comes back.

It was Earth all along.

/I'm a jerk.
 
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