dittybopper: I'm withholding judgement, because I think there is too much that we really don't know at this point about the events of the day that he was captured, and what he was thinking at the time.
dittybopper: And if any one of us is in a position to judge, McCain is, having been there.
Noam Chimpsky: got several of his platoon killed trying to find him.
21-7-b: "No, Mr. President, a soldier expressing horrid anti-American beliefs - even boldly putting them in writing and unabashedly firing off his messages while in uniform, just three days before he left his unit on foot - is not 'honorable service.' Unless that is your standard."Ms Palin, you really are the most giving person on the planet
factoryconnection: All these "revelations" that come and go seem to have conspired to make me feel the exact same way:1. We as a country get our POWs back and sometimes that takes an unpleasant prisoner swap2. If he's got personal, legal or professional problems, the solution to them didn't involve leaving him with the Haqqani Network.Simple as that.
Somacandra: Seeing as how this is based on stuff that he actually allegedly wrote, it would seem a bit more credible.
dittybopper: Somacandra: dittybopper: Even though we really don't know much solid about the Bergdahl case yet, we know enough to realize that there is a fundamental difference between the two situations.If we don't yet know enough to state the facts regarding the loss/capture of Bergfart, then by definition we do not know enough to tell whether there is a fundamental difference.Sure we do. We do know one walked away from his post and spent at a minimum at least 5 hours, and quite likely more, wandering around the Afghan countryside.TIMELINE: 0430z BLACKFOOT TOC REPORTS SOLDIER IS MISSING...UPDATE: 1012z GUARDRAIL REPORTS PICKED UP LLVI TRAFFIC AT GRID VB 6597 3366 THAT STATES (UIM INDICATES THAT AN AMERICAN SOLDIER IS TALKING AND IS LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS ENGLISH. INDICATES AMERICAN SOLDIER HAS CAMERA)So he goes missing sometime before 0430 Zulu time, and at 1012 Zulu a Guardrail aircraft reports "low level voice intercept" traffic about an American soldier who is walking around with a camera and looking for someone who speaks English.This is a Guardrail RC-12 aircraft:[dev.defense-update.com image 520x347]It's specifically designed to intercept communications at a tactical level. I have friends that have flown them (including missions in Iraq and Afghanistan).
nmrsnr: dittybopper: I'm withholding judgement, because I think there is too much that we really don't know at this point about the events of the day that he was captured, and what he was thinking at the time.This implies that the he might not have been deserving of rescue, or that the cost of his freedom depends on his personality. Both of those things are things I would protest.It's one thing to argue that the price was too high. We certainly would not have traded him for a nuclear weapon, and we absolutely would have traded him for a piece of Bazooka bubble gum, so where in the middle you draw the line is one of policy that is certainly debatable.What I don't believe is debatable is whether the price is freedom should somehow be dependent on how deserving he is. Freedom from capture is not something one should deserve, it's something the government owes it's citizens. So whether the five prisoners for him was a worthwhile trade is arguable (I think yes), but it would be debatable regardless of who Bergdahl is, what his motivations were, or what happened that caused his capture. All of this claptrap about what he was thinking is, to my mind, completely irrelevant, and is just being used for people to justify being angry at Obama for something they would applaud from anyone else.
dittybopper: Lionel Mandrake: Without making the exchange, we would never know. If you want answers to those questions, the exchange is necessary.That's not necessarily true. Just because *WE* don't know, that doesn't mean that the information isn't out there. I'm sure the NSA has been vacuuming up every communication it possibly could relating to Bergdahl. We got to see some summaries of that sort of thing in the Wikileaks document about his capture, but that almost certainly isn't the sum total.Plus, we don't know what the initial military investigation found. Often it's best to interview people immediately after the events in question. We don't know if he left a note or not.That's all stuff that "we", meaning the Farkers discussing it here and now, don't know, but that's not necessarily stuff that "We", in the context of the United States, don't know.But in the end, your argument sounds suspiciously like "we have to pass it to find out what's in it". Maybe it was a good deal. Maybe it wasn't. But if you're going to ask me to buy a pig in a poke, you have to have some pretty compelling evidence that it's a Wilbur-level of porcine pulchritude.Right now, neither you nor I have that.
factoryconnection: is there a perception that "the left" is hailing Bowe Bergdahl as a bona-fide hero or something?
dittybopper: There is a difference between the two:
Three Crooked Squirrels: Sgt Otter: 21-7-b: "No, Mr. President, a soldier expressing horrid anti-American beliefs - even boldly putting them in writing and unabashedly firing off his messages while in uniform, just three days before he left his unit on foot - is not 'honorable service.' Unless that is your standard."Ms Palin, you really are the most giving person on the planetDidn't her son only go into the Army under the "Enlist or Go to Jail" option?/Yes, I know that that no longer "officially" happens.Cite? Never heard that.
Irving Maimway: factoryconnection: All these "revelations" that come and go seem to have conspired to make me feel the exact same way:1. We as a country get our POWs back and sometimes that takes an unpleasant prisoner swap2. If he's got personal, legal or professional problems, the solution to them didn't involve leaving him with the Haqqani Network.Simple as that.This is what even the right wing fellow veteran friends of mine don't get. We always have tried to get our POWs back. For John McCain to come out and decry this, when he was freed as part of a prisoner exchange laid out in farking writing in the Paris Peace Accord, is the height of either hypocrisy or being a pure douchenozzle. Or in his case maybe both at the same time.
"Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision."
edmo: All I know is it could have been much worse for Obama. Imagine if FOXNews found out he hadn't tried to rescue the guy...
Giltric: If someone breaks into prison, would you want the police to rescue them?
Cyclometh: Noam Chimpsky: got several of his platoon killed trying to find him.Stop vomiting this debunked lie.
dittybopper: Somacandra: Doesn't change the fact that the exchange was a good thing.That of course remains to be seen.
Saners: A black man is worth 2/5 of a person,
Dog Welder: we can Predator Drone the five guys
theknuckler_33: Who farking cares. He's an American being held by the Taliban. He needed to be brought home. I'm glad the trade was made. Now WE can deal with him one way or another.
Bane of Broone: Somacandra: Doctor Funkenstein: Diogenes: That dude wears more hats than N0bummer.Indeed. And there's only one way to approach this conundrum. It's time to befart his name. It's the only way to be sure. Fartgent Blowe Buttdookhl!Bergfart.Not to be confused withFartghazi.I can't stop giggling.Tee hee
rohar: Somehow that's so much easier to see in retrospect when we've aged a bit huh? But this man speaks truth. We did what we did for 1 reason, to kill. A lot. Not for our own reasons. How is this Sgt. any less of a man than I am? I can assure you I had the same doubts that he did at one point. I simply didn't have the physical opportunity he did.My honorable discharge will stand, his is being questioned. Why?
BSABSVR: Bith Set Me Up: I thought Republicans loved Ayn Rand?If Bergdahl really was a Randian, he will be right wing hero in 48 hours.
IlGreven: If they had any brains, they'd be CPTs, not PFCs.
Saners: Sometimes I wish I could see into a parallel universe, just to see what the outrage would have been if the headlines were "The only confirmed POW, Sgt. Bergdahl, has been labeled a deserter, despite not having enough evidence to charge him for the last five years, and will be left in Afganistan as the military pulls out their forces."
dittybopper: As near was we can tell with Bergdahl, so far (and this is subject to change), he simply walked off post and started wandering around the Afghan countryside, asking people if they spoke any English. We don't know his motivation for that yet.
dittybopper: Even though we really don't know much solid about the Bergdahl case yet, we know enough to realize that there is a fundamental difference between the two situations.
Three Crooked Squirrels: Who the fark cares? Bring him back and try him if the facts warrant.
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