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(Education Week)   Judge strikes down California's laws that protect teachers from being fired over things like pregnancy, ethnicity, and insanity (working in low-income schools)   (blogs.edweek.org) divider line 104
    More: Asinine, ethnicity, Theodore B. Olson, Golden State  
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3734 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jun 2014 at 5:25 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



104 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-06-10 02:22:22 PM  
Nice troll attempt, but there is nothing in there that says ethnicity (Federal Equal Opportunity) or pregnancy (Family Medical Leave Act) are being blocked. Just that the teachers' union is losing a little power protecting crappy teachers.
 
2014-06-10 02:52:18 PM  
Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

Scrapping the system isn't the way to go, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to find a way to streamline the removal of genuinely bad actors in the teaching community.

The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.
 
2014-06-10 03:55:03 PM  
This is why I have always been active at my children's schools. It was shockingly easy to see which teachers were awesome and which were on the borderline incompetent or below. Simply asking the principal nicely that my child not have a certain teacher next year went a long way because no principal wants to lose the few parents that are engaged.
 
2014-06-10 05:07:47 PM  
Glory, glory hallelujah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
Met her at the door
With a loaded .44
And she ain't my teacher no more.
 
2014-06-10 05:20:25 PM  
lol because the skools did it to themselves
 
2014-06-10 05:31:22 PM  
This decision violates a teacher's right to not be fired for being bad at their job.
 
2014-06-10 05:32:56 PM  
Compensation really needs to be merit based.  Communism just doesn't work.
 
2014-06-10 05:35:20 PM  
Pushed by charter school stooges that are happy to take public money and then lie about student results because hey, at least is sounds better.

This will be overturned on appeal, the reasoning was tortured.
 
2014-06-10 05:37:15 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Compensation really needs to be merit based.  Communism just doesn't work.


Care to take a stab at what constitutes 'merit' in primary education, secondary education, and higher ed?
 
2014-06-10 05:37:54 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Pushed by charter school stooges that are happy to take public money and then lie about student results because hey, at least is sounds better.

This will be overturned on appeal, the reasoning was tortured.


Some of the charters don't have to lie - they just only take the kids they want to take.  It's pretty easy to produce great test results when you only admit kids with motivated and involved parents.
 
2014-06-10 05:38:02 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Compensation really needs to be merit based.  Communism just doesn't work.


Except that teachers don't get to select their students. There isn't a lot a teacher can do with a lazy child with disinterested parents.
 
F42
2014-06-10 05:41:55 PM  
Subby: Law protects from racism.

TFA: "The laws in question require teachers to be granted tenure after just two years; compel layoffs to be made on the basis of seniority;"

Subby's dumb.
 
2014-06-10 05:44:19 PM  

max_pooper: There isn't a lot a teacher can do with a lazy child with disinterested parents.


Break a foot off in their ass...
 
2014-06-10 05:47:20 PM  

everlastinggobstopper: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Compensation really needs to be merit based.  Communism just doesn't work.

Care to take a stab at what constitutes 'merit' in primary education, secondary education, and higher ed?


You have to design standards that work, that are measurable.  Without them, it's a race to the bottom as everybody gets the same pay regardless of performance.  Why work harder than the bare minimum if you never get recognized for it?  Some teachers will teach for the love of it, but if I'm a parent, I'd prefer more concrete incentives.
 
2014-06-10 05:48:34 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

Scrapping the system isn't the way to go, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to find a way to streamline the removal of genuinely bad actors in the teaching community.

The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.


Tenure after 18 months on the job is not a good thing.   5-10 years maybe, but 18 months is an insane extension of a grant of protection to a person who just started their career.
 
2014-06-10 05:49:20 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: everlastinggobstopper: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Compensation really needs to be merit based.  Communism just doesn't work.

Care to take a stab at what constitutes 'merit' in primary education, secondary education, and higher ed?

You have to design standards that work, that are measurable.  Without them, it's a race to the bottom as everybody gets the same pay regardless of performance.  Why work harder than the bare minimum if you never get recognized for it?  Some teachers will teach for the love of it, but if I'm a parent, I'd prefer more concrete incentives.



And nobody has been able to come up with a metric that does that.
 
2014-06-10 05:50:52 PM  
Vergara v. California

I'd say California has been pretty good to her.

gazztoday.com
 
2014-06-10 05:54:56 PM  

Gig103: Nice troll attempt, but there is nothing in there that says ethnicity (Federal Equal Opportunity) or pregnancy (Family Medical Leave Act) are being blocked. Just that the teachers' union is losing a little power protecting crappy teachers.


Or senior teachers who make too much....
 
2014-06-10 05:55:38 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.


I disagree.  Tenure makes it difficult to remove substandard employees from the rolls.  It can even be difficult to remove an employee who has done something to the level of gross incompetence.  And in many school systems, tenure extends to staff other than teachers.

My own experience working at places where it is difficult to fire an employee is quite negative.  Whatever fear there was of the management was tempered by the daily interaction with shiatstains who not only should have been fired long ago, but should have been dragged out back to be repeatedly sodomized by angry bears.

A lot of places have systems that sit somewhere between tenure and at-will employment.  There is a happy middle ground that works, IMHO.
 
2014-06-10 05:57:04 PM  
Last time I checked you could still fire a tenured teacher for cause.
 
2014-06-10 06:01:14 PM  

Old_Chief_Scott: This is why I have always been active at my children's schools. It was shockingly easy to see which teachers were awesome and which were on the borderline incompetent or below. Simply asking the principal nicely that my child not have a certain teacher next year went a long way because no principal wants to lose the few parents that are engaged.


That's the whole problem.  Those teachers shouldn't be teachers if that happens regularly.  Tenure after a couple years ensures crap teachers have a job for life regardless of their performance.

Tenure in public k-12 schools is downright stupid.  Especially since they already have union protection.
 
2014-06-10 06:02:44 PM  

Drewsclue: Last time I checked you could still fire a tenured teacher for cause.


Yeah...google LAUSD "rubber rooms" and you'll see that isn't the case at all....
 
2014-06-10 06:05:40 PM  
Yeah, I had some teachers that pretty much ruined "education" for me. fark tenure.
 
2014-06-10 06:09:40 PM  

F42: Subby: Law protects from racism.

TFA: "The laws in question require teachers to be granted tenure after just two years; compel layoffs to be made on the basis of seniority;"

Subby's dumb.



He clearly meant señority.
 
2014-06-10 06:10:45 PM  
Yeah, let's do all we can to make the job of a teacher more difficult, because it's not like they don't have enough problems already, with being underpaid, overworked, underfunded, and underappreciated.

But the big issue here, in my opinion, is that a constitutional challenge to a state law just succeeded of completely overriding the will of the people based on some fairly specious grounds. Talk about "activist judges" - here's a prime example. If you don't want teachers to have tenure after two years, start a petition, lobby the state house, win an election - you should have to actually convince people of your point, instead of just finding a friendly judge to hear your case.
 
2014-06-10 06:12:17 PM  

Dinjiin: TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

I disagree.  Tenure makes it difficult to remove substandard employees from the rolls.  It can even be difficult to remove an employee who has done something to the level of gross incompetence.  And in many school systems, tenure extends to staff other than teachers.

My own experience working at places where it is difficult to fire an employee is quite negative.  Whatever fear there was of the management was tempered by the daily interaction with shiatstains who not only should have been fired long ago, but should have been dragged out back to be repeatedly sodomized by angry bears.

A lot of places have systems that sit somewhere between tenure and at-will employment.  There is a happy middle ground that works, IMHO.


Tenure doesn't mean that someone can't be fired, it just means that cause has to be shown and a process has to be followed that allows the employee a chance to represent his or her case.

It helps balance the power between 'management' (the administration) and 'labor' (the teachers).

Really, all jobs should use similar systems.

If someone is keeping their job who is fully incompetent it just means that the administration is just as incompetent for not taking the time to document the problems, follow the disciplinary roadmap, and complete the tasks they have to complete to remove the teacher.

Tenure isn't some magic wand where a teacher can slap a kid, send a dick pic to the class, drink a 40 on the job and then say 'tenure biatch'.  Bad conduct, including perpetual poor performance, is still grounds for termination.
 
2014-06-10 06:13:13 PM  
This will be overturned.
 
2014-06-10 06:14:11 PM  
The tenured protections public school teachers have carved out for themselves have gone way too far and had to go.

These tenure protections are so strong that the head of LA Unified School district testified in this trial it costs the district $250,000 to $450,000 in litigation fees to terminate an incompetent tenured teacher (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/10/teachers-tenure -j udge-education/10291991/ ).

One teacher in LA was actually arrested and convicted of feeding kids semen and the school district had to pay him $40K to go away because it was cheaper than letting him exhaust all his legal protections afforded through tenure.  (http://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2012/02/09/4616/lausd-paid-4000 0-s ettle-case-miramonte-teacher-acc/ )

Tenure makes sense for university professors on the forefront of radical thoughts and ideas, but no third grade public school teacher is in the business of contemplating and exposing radical thought in the classroom.  All of us are subject to the subjective decision making of a boss in some way or another, or at the least, a customer.  That's just life.
 
2014-06-10 06:15:43 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Dinjiin: TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

I disagree.  Tenure makes it difficult to remove substandard employees from the rolls.  It can even be difficult to remove an employee who has done something to the level of gross incompetence.  And in many school systems, tenure extends to staff other than teachers.

My own experience working at places where it is difficult to fire an employee is quite negative.  Whatever fear there was of the management was tempered by the daily interaction with shiatstains who not only should have been fired long ago, but should have been dragged out back to be repeatedly sodomized by angry bears.

A lot of places have systems that sit somewhere between tenure and at-will employment.  There is a happy middle ground that works, IMHO.

Tenure doesn't mean that someone can't be fired, it just means that cause has to be shown and a process has to be followed that allows the employee a chance to represent his or her case.

It helps balance the power between 'management' (the administration) and 'labor' (the teachers).

Really, all jobs should use similar systems.

If someone is keeping their job who is fully incompetent it just means that the administration is just as incompetent for not taking the time to document the problems, follow the disciplinary roadmap, and complete the tasks they have to complete to remove the teacher.

Tenure isn't some magic wand where a teacher can slap a kid, send a dick pic to the class, drink a 40 on the job and then say 'tenure biatch'.  Bad conduct, including perpetual poor performance, is still grounds for termination.


Exactly. Bad teachers should get the boot while protect teachers with due process.

By all means anyone who thinks teaching is a cakewalk is welcome to come on board..
 
2014-06-10 06:22:04 PM  
California teacher/union thug/exploiter of the taxpayers here.

Permanent status would be better given after 5 years, as studies show that's where the highest turnover rate is anyway. People figure out quickly whether they're fit for the job or not, and if we give them less reason to hang out, they're more likely to move on.

The "dance of the lemons" is the most vile and annoying thing ever. In a district the size of mine, you get to know who these people are and cringe when they show up at your school.

Seniority-based lay-offs (or in my case, a forced change-of-school) are sad, BUT without a way to definitively say which teacher is "better" I'm fine with it. IF your district doesn't have an alternate way of ranking teachers, it's as good a way as any.

Now, to deciding who is a "better" teacher ---- there are some teachers, often new and full of energy, who engage their students and make everything exciting --- BUT DON'T TEACH A GOD DAMN THING (in relation to the standards and content they are supposed to be delivering), and at the same time there are teachers, often old and a bit tired, who can't keep up the circus act anymore --- but who know their content inside and out and can explain in detail the concepts and understanding necessary for mastering that particular subject.

If you ask a 10-year-old who the "better" teacher is, they aren't exactly in the best position to say, since they judge "better" on a different scale than adults. I've found parents are also frequently misled into believing that the teacher that rolls out the coolest-looking projects at Open House is the "better" teacher. Or the one that always gives in to whatever parents want, whether that's in the best interest of the student or not.  And "better" is different from kid to kid. I know that I'm not a good teacher for certain kinds of kids, but that I'm the best kind of teacher for others (I'm very structured). I trust my colleagues in the grades below me to know what kinds of kids go best with which kinds of teachers, and set us all up with groups that will work well together.

Another reason we went with such seemingly arbitrary lay-off rules is so that administrators could not rig things to get rid of teachers they personally did not like, or who stood up against them for whatever reason. You can take an awesome teacher and turn them into the worst teacher ever if you set things up to fail: give them the lowest kids, throw in a few behavior problems, deny them resources, withhold help in dealing with classroom management, undermine them with parents and the district, and so on. If all of that does not simply run them out, and they outlast the administration's efforts, they still have a job. It makes it a less attractive avenue for harassment if it's not guaranteed to work.

Anyhow. That's my two cents, from inside the belly of the beast.
 
2014-06-10 06:23:19 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Bad conduct, including perpetual poor performance, is still grounds for termination.


And here lies the problem. In the San Diego Unified School District last year the feds offered a $21 million grant if districts would only submit their proposals for teacher evaluations. No one would touch it because it would mean coming up with an evaluation method that is tied to actual performance. And no one, especially not the teacher's union or the school board (it was an election year after all), was about to stir the pot in an attempt to quantify performance.

Oh well, we probably would have had a hard time finding a way to spend $21 million anyway.
 
2014-06-10 06:24:26 PM  

Iluvbeer: One teacher in LA was actually arrested and convicted of feeding kids semen and the school district had to pay him $40K to go away because it was cheaper than letting him exhaust all his legal protections afforded through tenure. (http://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2012/02/09/4616/lausd-paid-4000 0-s ettle-case-miramonte-teacher-acc/ )


www.cavemancircus.com

img.fark.net
 
2014-06-10 06:26:56 PM  
this one is easy...
increase the pay for teachers, and get rid of the whole tenure thing. this will ensure a constant supply of teachers who actually PERFORM WHAT THEY"RE PAID TO DO.

No where else do you only need to be employed for a certain time to be almost immune from firing, REGARDLESS OF YOUR JOB PERFORMANCE.
Yes, they should earn more money. Key word here: EARN
 
2014-06-10 06:27:03 PM  

weasil: You can take an awesome teacher and turn them into the worst teacher ever if you set things up to fail: give them the lowest kids, throw in a few behavior problems, deny them resources, withhold help in dealing with classroom management, undermine them with parents and the district, and so on. If all of that does not simply run them out, and they outlast the administration's efforts, they still have a job.


Precisely.

And you can keep a very poor teacher on the payroll by giving them the "easy" kids so that they can stick around a few more years and get to that next rung on the retirement ladder. How do you make a fair evaluation system with those sorts of intangibles to deal with?
 
2014-06-10 06:28:12 PM  

dpzum1: this one is easy...
increase the pay for teachers, and get rid of the whole tenure thing. this will ensure a constant supply of teachers who actually PERFORM WHAT THEY"RE PAID TO DO.

No where else do you only need to be employed for a certain time to be almost immune from firing, REGARDLESS OF YOUR JOB PERFORMANCE.
Yes, they should earn more money. Key word here: EARN


Oh, right. I forgot about most other union jobs...
 
2014-06-10 06:28:36 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: HotWingConspiracy: Pushed by charter school stooges that are happy to take public money and then lie about student results because hey, at least is sounds better.

This will be overturned on appeal, the reasoning was tortured.

Some of the charters don't have to lie - they just only take the kids they want to take.  It's pretty easy to produce great test results when you only admit kids with motivated and involved parents.


Yeah, that's often part of the deal with these schools. I've worked with a few, and they will stress that parental involvement is part of the package. It's not only what makes the students successful, it ensures that the parents don't simply see this charter school as something they can dump the kid at and expect magic.
 
2014-06-10 06:32:35 PM  

Iluvbeer: Tenure makes sense for university professors on the forefront of radical thoughts and ideas, but no third grade public school teacher is in the business of contemplating and exposing radical thought in the classroom.


"Radical thought" at that level covers things like doing the job that's actually in your contract and refusing to take on duties outside of it. I know, crazy. Or refusing to rubberstamp your principal's ideas on committees that have teachers AND administrators on them so that both parties can actually be represented. Or complaining to the district when your administration repeatedly sets up situations that are detrimental to the school culture --- like rewarding students with histories of violent behavior instead of disciplining them and/or stopping the behavior.

Teachers and administrators do not always agree. Permanent status gives the protection needed to be able to voice our positions without fear of retribution (at least the kind that can get us fired --- they can still fark with you if they're petty).
 
2014-06-10 06:33:50 PM  

weasil: California teacher/union thug/exploiter of the taxpayers here.

Permanent status would be better given after 5 years, as studies show that's where the highest turnover rate is anyway. People figure out quickly whether they're fit for the job or not, and if we give them less reason to hang out, they're more likely to move on.

The "dance of the lemons" is the most vile and annoying thing ever. In a district the size of mine, you get to know who these people are and cringe when they show up at your school.

Seniority-based lay-offs (or in my case, a forced change-of-school) are sad, BUT without a way to definitively say which teacher is "better" I'm fine with it. IF your district doesn't have an alternate way of ranking teachers, it's as good a way as any.

Now, to deciding who is a "better" teacher ---- there are some teachers, often new and full of energy, who engage their students and make everything exciting --- BUT DON'T TEACH A GOD DAMN THING (in relation to the standards and content they are supposed to be delivering), and at the same time there are teachers, often old and a bit tired, who can't keep up the circus act anymore --- but who know their content inside and out and can explain in detail the concepts and understanding necessary for mastering that particular subject.

If you ask a 10-year-old who the "better" teacher is, they aren't exactly in the best position to say, since they judge "better" on a different scale than adults. I've found parents are also frequently misled into believing that the teacher that rolls out the coolest-looking projects at Open House is the "better" teacher. Or the one that always gives in to whatever parents want, whether that's in the best interest of the student or not.  And "better" is different from kid to kid. I know that I'm not a good teacher for certain kinds of kids, but that I'm the best kind of teacher for others (I'm very structured). I trust my colleagues in the grades below me to know what kinds of kids go best with which kinds of teachers, and set us all up with groups that will work well together.

Another reason we went with such seemingly arbitrary lay-off rules is so that administrators could not rig things to get rid of teachers they personally did not like, or who stood up against them for whatever reason. You can take an awesome teacher and turn them into the worst teacher ever if you set things up to fail: give them the lowest kids, throw in a few behavior problems, deny them resources, withhold help in dealing with classroom management, undermine them with parents and the district, and so on. If all of that does not simply run them out, and they outlast the administration's efforts, they still have a job. It makes it a less attractive avenue for harassment if it's not guaranteed to work.

Anyhow. That's my two cents, from inside the belly of the beast.


You sound fat.

/I keed
//not enough money to entice me to teach
///good luck
 
2014-06-10 06:34:44 PM  

weasil: California teacher/union thug/exploiter of the taxpayers here.

Permanent status would be better given after 5 years, as studies show that's where the highest turnover rate is anyway. People figure out quickly whether they're fit for the job or not, and if we give them less reason to hang out, they're more likely to move on.

The "dance of the lemons" is the most vile and annoying thing ever. In a district the size of mine, you get to know who these people are and cringe when they show up at your school.

Seniority-based lay-offs (or in my case, a forced change-of-school) are sad, BUT without a way to definitively say which teacher is "better" I'm fine with it. IF your district doesn't have an alternate way of ranking teachers, it's as good a way as any.

Now, to deciding who is a "better" teacher ---- there are some teachers, often new and full of energy, who engage their students and make everything exciting --- BUT DON'T TEACH A GOD DAMN THING (in relation to the standards and content they are supposed to be delivering), and at the same time there are teachers, often old and a bit tired, who can't keep up the circus act anymore --- but who know their content inside and out and can explain in detail the concepts and understanding necessary for mastering that particular subject.

If you ask a 10-year-old who the "better" teacher is, they aren't exactly in the best position to say, since they judge "better" on a different scale than adults. I've found parents are also frequently misled into believing that the teacher that rolls out the coolest-looking projects at Open House is the "better" teacher. Or the one that always gives in to whatever parents want, whether that's in the best interest of the student or not.  And "better" is different from kid to kid. I know that I'm not a good teacher for certain kinds of kids, but that I'm the best kind of teacher for others (I'm very structured). I trust my colleagues in the grades below me to know what kinds of kids go best ...


Completely agree with all of this.

Also - Teachers don't get to pick their students, just the school they teach at.   Who in their right mind would want to teach in a place where there are more problems for less pay?  (most failing schools)

The education problem in this country has far less to do with the teachers and much more to do with the parents (or lack thereof).
 
2014-06-10 06:38:51 PM  

kendelrio: You sound fat.

/I keed


6 feet tall and 200 pounds. If I was a guy that would almost be OK. Gives me plenty of space to hold my sense of humor.

/thyroid issues
//taxpayer provided healthcare FTW
///slashies!!!
 
2014-06-10 06:39:27 PM  
I had so many bad teachers that would have been fired but for tenure -- more power to the plaintiffs.  Why should teachers and bureaucrats have such highly protected positions?
 
2014-06-10 06:40:32 PM  

max_pooper: And nobody has been able to come up with a metric that does that.


Why is that so?  Why not say something like "if a teacher has kids that score lower than the other teachers in the same grade for more than three years, they're out!".  Wouldn't that normalize out the "bad students, bad administration, ... etc?
 
2014-06-10 06:42:47 PM  

weasil: kendelrio: You sound fat.

/I keed

6 feet tall and 200 pounds. If I was a guy that would almost be OK. Gives me plenty of space to hold my sense of humor.

/thyroid issues
//taxpayer provided healthcare FTW
///slashies!!!


howyoudoin.jpg
 
2014-06-10 06:44:51 PM  

muddythinker: Why should teachers and bureaucrats have such highly protected positions?


Teachers are in an excellent position to be screwed over by manipulative parents, who exist in droves. That's why.
 
2014-06-10 06:51:41 PM  

mangeybear: Why not say something like "if a teacher has kids that score lower than the other teachers in the same grade for more than three years, they're out!".


Because for each of the last 5 years, one of the teachers on my grade-level team has been given the lowest of the low kids, the language learners (he's fluent in Spanish, but that doesn't help him with the Korean kids), the worst discipline problems (he's an MMA fighter on the weekends, so they don't pull as much shiat with him), and NONE of the gifted kids, even though he's certified to teach them. This last year 1/4 of his class was special ed. He always has the lowest scores. Always. But he works harder than all the rest of us combined. He is absolutely a better teacher than I am (not the lack of quotes on that this time), but NO ONE will ever request that their kid be in his class, because then their kid will be in with the lowest kids, dodging the behavior problems.
 
2014-06-10 06:53:30 PM  

weasil: Iluvbeer: Tenure makes sense for university professors on the forefront of radical thoughts and ideas, but no third grade public school teacher is in the business of contemplating and exposing radical thought in the classroom.

"Radical thought" at that level covers things like doing the job that's actually in your contract and refusing to take on duties outside of it. I know, crazy. Or refusing to rubberstamp your principal's ideas on committees that have teachers AND administrators on them so that both parties can actually be represented. Or complaining to the district when your administration repeatedly sets up situations that are detrimental to the school culture --- like rewarding students with histories of violent behavior instead of disciplining them and/or stopping the behavior.

Teachers and administrators do not always agree. Permanent status gives the protection needed to be able to voice our positions without fear of retribution (at least the kind that can get us fired --- they can still fark with you if they're petty).


Dude... all employees are subject to office politics and subjective decision making by upper levels.

Disagreeing with your boss isn't radical thought.  Its just day to day work life.  So there is no reason that a teacher needs special protections that others don't get.

In fact, if you are so worried about getting fired for expressing alternative opinions, it probably means your opinions are so ridiculously stupid that the administration had determined you are unlikely to ever have a helpful opinion and probably should not be given control of a classroom full of children.
 
2014-06-10 06:53:46 PM  

max_pooper: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: everlastinggobstopper: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Compensation really needs to be merit based.  Communism just doesn't work.

Care to take a stab at what constitutes 'merit' in primary education, secondary education, and higher ed?

You have to design standards that work, that are measurable.  Without them, it's a race to the bottom as everybody gets the same pay regardless of performance.  Why work harder than the bare minimum if you never get recognized for it?  Some teachers will teach for the love of it, but if I'm a parent, I'd prefer more concrete incentives.


And nobody has been able to come up with a metric that does that.


You don't have to. Establish a voucher-based system and your customers, aka the parents, will decide which institution is doing a better job by whatever standards they want to employ. That avoids the endless argument of what the standards should be, who should enforce them, yada yada yada, that prevents reform from ever happening.
 
2014-06-10 06:59:02 PM  

Queensowntalia: muddythinker: Why should teachers and bureaucrats have such highly protected positions?

Teachers are in an excellent position to be screwed over by manipulative parents, who exist in droves. That's why.


So very true. I've been accused of some pretty heinous things, including completely crushing a child's spirit, and utterly destroying another's joy of learning. It's amazing how fragile children can be when you don't accept their late/plagiarized work (especially when it's actually the parent's work, they hate getting down-graded for cheating).
 
2014-06-10 07:00:10 PM  

dpzum1: dpzum1: this one is easy...
increase the pay for teachers, and get rid of the whole tenure thing. this will ensure a constant supply of teachers who actually PERFORM WHAT THEY"RE PAID TO DO.

No where else do you only need to be employed for a certain time to be almost immune from firing, REGARDLESS OF YOUR JOB PERFORMANCE.
Yes, they should earn more money. Key word here: EARN

Oh, right. I forgot about most other union jobs...


This is still the case in most of those other union places- you can lose your job if you're documented being a lousy worker, especially if you have very little to no connections.

The worst bit is that the unions which used to be powerful and all protective, are losing steam because the people in charge, the most senior people in those unions are being given bonuses or early retirements if the management gets its way.
Then the senior guys tell the noobs: Fark you; I got mine!
 
2014-06-10 07:00:28 PM  
TuteTibiImperes

The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.

This is true but the more fundamental point is why does a member of the judicial branch get to make these types of decisions? The idea the that a Constitution--any Constitution--can guarantee quality is asinine.  Ultimately--what is or is not a "quality education" is something for the political process, the legislature, to decide.
 
2014-06-10 07:02:57 PM  
Subby, there are already other laws that protect against discrimination based on those things.   But tenure protects teachers who molest children and other sorts of gross misconduct.

/lefty who thinks you are NOT HELPING.
 
2014-06-10 07:10:54 PM  

Iluvbeer: In fact, if you are so worried about getting fired for expressing alternative opinions, it probably means your opinions are so ridiculously stupid


And right there, you've overstepped the logic. You say disagreeing with your boss is day to day life --- so every underling who disagrees with their boss is automatically ridiculously stupid?  You've never had an idea better than the one your boss came up with?

Do you even know how people become public school administrators?  Quite often they start as teachers and FAIL miserably at it. But they've put so much money and effort into the degrees and certifications necessary for it that they have to find a way to roll those into their next position (or start over completely in a new field). So they get an administrative credential, and somehow, even though they couldn't hack it themselves as a teacher, they now know more than the teachers do about how to get the job done?  THIS IS PART OF WHAT'S WRONG WITH PUBLIC EDUCATION.

An administrator often makes decisions based on money, not on what's best for children. Teachers are in the trenches every day and know what resources are needed to get the job done. Disagreements happen. Healthy debate is necessary, and  heavy-handed top-down management stifles that.
 
2014-06-10 07:13:06 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Tenure doesn't mean that someone can't be fired, it just means that cause has to be shown and a process has to be followed that allows the employee a chance to represent his or her case.


Except that for many government institutions, it has effectively become a system were people are safe from termination for all but the most serious offenses because of the time, paperwork, costs, [union] politics and thresholds in removing problem employees.


TuteTibiImperes: Really, all jobs should use similar systems.


I've already expressed my opinion of that above.

But such a system would also change the way that many companies hire people.  In sectors where you get a lot of unskilled, low quality, high turnover employees, I imagine that companies would turn exclusively to contracting firms.  Since the budget for employees is somewhat fixed yet contracting firms want a cut, it'd probably result in lower overall wages.
 
2014-06-10 07:14:47 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.


I would say the exact same process that anybody in any professional position is subjected to when an workplace accusation (sexual harassment, etc) is made.  It's not like teachers are the only people in the world who could possible face such accusations unfairly.  If a mere word of mouth accusation is all it takes, then so be it...but for all job types.  If a year long drawn out investigation is required, then so be it, but for all job types.  Teachers don't need to be extra special.   And if you think there isn't office politics in a regular corporate environment, then you've never worked in one,
 
2014-06-10 07:22:44 PM  

Gig103: Nice troll attempt, but there is nothing in there that says ethnicity (Federal Equal Opportunity) or pregnancy (Family Medical Leave Act) are being blocked. Just that the teachers' union is losing a little power protecting crappy teachers.


Now see, I interpreted it as pregnancy and ethnicity of the students!

/ Or Subby is a dumbass...
 
2014-06-10 07:36:34 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.


I'm thinking ThiunderDome, or dueling pistols at midnight.
 
2014-06-10 07:42:01 PM  
The reality is that there are no occupations currently unionized that started out that way. Always unionization happens in response to employer abuses, whether it's substandard pay, unsafe working conditions, unacceptable treatment or inappropriate expectations. The protections put into the contracts are there because they were needed to counteract past ill treatment. Administrators and districts both have used pressure and outright harassment to control teacher behavior, and so that's why we needed the due process protections.

To those of you who have mentioned office politics --- I don't think anyone here has denied the existence of it. But there's a difference between office politics and systematic harassment of an employee with the intent to either control them or drive them out. When that happens in offices, unless it's a really small firm, the manager gets fired if he can't work with the crew. That's how it was when I work a warehouse job --- in five years we went through three managers who couldn't work with the crew. The crew knew the job better and refused to implement changes that would have reduced productivity. Luckily we had a regional manager who understood our position. None of us got fired, but some of us got harassed by the managers when we didn't play along.

This is EXACTLY the situation the protections are there for: The teachers know their jobs. The vast majority of us are not incompetent boobs or kiddy-diddlers. When an administrator wants to make a change, it's better to take into account that the crew has some expertise and use that knowledge rather than deny it.
 
2014-06-10 07:43:05 PM  

weasil: Iluvbeer: In fact, if you are so worried about getting fired for expressing alternative opinions, it probably means your opinions are so ridiculously stupid

And right there, you've overstepped the logic. You say disagreeing with your boss is day to day life --- so every underling who disagrees with their boss is automatically ridiculously stupid?  You've never had an idea better than the one your boss came up with?


I'm saying if you get fired for disagreeing all the time, it generally means you had nothing to contribute.  If you have some good points to make to better the mission goal, they keep your around.   Works the same anywhere.  So why do teachers need special protections?

Do you even know how people become public school administrators?  Quite often they start as teachers and FAIL miserably at it. But they've put so much money and effort into the degrees and certifications necessary for it that they have to find a way to roll those into their next position (or start over completely in a new field). So they get an administrative credential, and somehow, even though they couldn't hack it themselves as a teacher, they now know more than the teachers do about how to get the job done?  THIS IS PART OF WHAT'S WRONG WITH PUBLIC EDUCATION.

An administrator often makes decisions based on money, not on what's best for children. Teachers are in the trenches every day and know what resources are needed to get the job done. Disagreements happen. Healthy debate is necessary, and  heavy-handed top-down management stifles that.


Someone always has to make decisions to keep spending in budget.  Nothing special there.  I still don't see why a teacher needs special protections?
 
2014-06-10 07:44:05 PM  

Tom_Slick: TuteTibiImperes: The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.

I'm thinking ThiunderDome, or dueling pistols at midnight.


I prefer Trial by Stone, but ThunderDome is intriguing.
 
2014-06-10 07:44:07 PM  

Dinjiin: TuteTibiImperes: Really, all jobs should use similar systems.

I've already expressed my opinion of that above.

But such a system would also change the way that many companies hire people. In sectors where you get a lot of unskilled, low quality, high turnover employees, I imagine that companies would turn exclusively to contracting firms. Since the budget for employees is somewhat fixed yet contracting firms want a cut, it'd probably result in lower overall wages.


What ever happened to companies investing in their employees?  I work at a tech company that provides very nice pay and benefits to all of the engineering staff, but when it comes to the receptionists and security, they've recently turned to contract firms.  The result is that almost everyone we get is either incompetent or leaves for better things almost immediately, and the few remaining receptionists who AREN'T contractors are the only ones who know how to get anything done.
 
2014-06-10 07:52:05 PM  

Snarfangel: F42: Subby: Law protects from racism.

TFA: "The laws in question require teachers to be granted tenure after just two years; compel layoffs to be made on the basis of seniority;"

Subby's dumb.


He clearly meant señority.


No.  Racism.Were the worst teachers assigned to the poorest communities? The judge decided they were? Then yes, that's Disparate Impact,  the judge is correct.

White liberals screwing minorities?  No way!
 
2014-06-10 07:56:14 PM  
Ok, Farkers. I want you to recall every School Admin story that we have all seen on Fark. Every Zero Tolerance, Over - reliance on School Policy decision, and just brain dead School Admin plan and action.

Those are the same people deciding who is and isn't a good teacher.... IF you want good teachers to go into that job and stay. They have to have some protection other than At-Will jobs.

That is why Tenure is needed....
 
2014-06-10 07:59:26 PM  

jjorsett: Establish a voucher-based system


How about no.
 
2014-06-10 08:05:00 PM  

Iluvbeer: I'm saying if you get fired for disagreeing all the time, it generally means you had nothing to contribute. If you have some good points to make to better the mission goal, they keep your around. Works the same anywhere.


Unfortunately it does not work that way everywhere. Some managers have to have their way all the time even if your idea is, in retrospect, better. In fact, it's sometime worse for you to have had the better idea when this happens, because managers like that are often vindictive, and will make sure you suffer for having had a better idea, so you don't share again, so their views are the only ones ever put forward.

Also realize that at many schools, like my warehouse job described above, principals pass through like water and the teachers are the constant. The administrators are usually the less-experienced partner in the relationship, so if they come in and immediately disregard the input of people who have been teaching longer than they've actually been alive, I think that's a bit of a problem.

Oh yeah, and we got special protections because we demanded them when they were necessary. When women could get fired for getting married, or pregnant. Or when you have ideas and the will to see them carried out. You can only demand these protections when you have the numbers to back yourself up. Lots of other people could use these protections but don't have them because they are easily replaceable as employees, either in skill set or numbers. We are easily replaceable in neither category.  To give up these protections will make teaching a LESS attractive job, since with all the shiat you get from kids and parents, you would have no one guaranteed to be on your side.

That said, anyone convicted of an abuse of their power as a teacher should lose their teaching license. I don't think you're going to find anyone backing the kiddy-diddlers on any front here.


/My SO says I should stop arguing with people on the internet, for having done so, I have already lost.
//not running away, just going to dinner
 
2014-06-10 08:09:39 PM  

silly season: Ok, Farkers. I want you to recall every School Admin story that we have all seen on Fark. Every Zero Tolerance, Over - reliance on School Policy decision, and just brain dead School Admin plan and action.

Those are the same people deciding who is and isn't a good teacher.... IF you want good teachers to go into that job and stay. They have to have some protection other than At-Will jobs.

That is why Tenure is needed....


Tenure is fine. The current process for dismissing grossly incompetent teachers is not. Having handled EPL insurance for a school district and seen the district settle with a teacher who was caught giving the students the answers for a standardized tests for $250,000, it seems the process is messed up.
 
2014-06-10 08:14:42 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: TuteTibiImperes: The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.

I would say the exact same process that anybody in any professional position is subjected to when an workplace accusation (sexual harassment, etc) is made.  It's not like teachers are the only people in the world who could possible face such accusations unfairly.  If a mere word of mouth accusation is all it takes, then so be it...but for all job types.  If a year long drawn out investigation is required, then so be it, but for all job types.  Teachers don't need to be extra special.   And if you think there isn't office politics in a regular corporate environment, then you've never worked in one,


I think the protections for everyone should be closer to what tenured teachers, policemen, etc, get, than vice versa.  It should be damn hard to fire anyone, it should require proof, documented attempts to correct the problem (within reason, certain things should be ground for termination on a first offense), and include a chance for the employee to make his or her case in front of a neutral arbitrator who makes the final call.

Teachers do end up putting up with more BS than many other professions.  Sure, office politics are common everywhere, but most jobs don't include being the only adult in the room with 30 children every day, and parents tend to get blinders and act in irrational ways when their children are involved.
 
2014-06-10 08:16:37 PM  

weasil: That said, anyone convicted of an abuse of their power as a teacher should lose their teaching license. I don't think you're going to find anyone backing the kiddy-diddlers on any front here.


So why was it so damn hard to fire that one teacher who made his third-grade class eat semen?
 
2014-06-10 08:18:17 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Tenure doesn't mean that someone can't be fired, it just means that cause has to be shown and a process has to be followed that allows the employee a chance to represent his or her case.

It helps balance the power between 'management' (the administration) and 'labor' (the teachers).

Really, all jobs should use similar systems.

If someone is keeping their job who is fully incompetent it just means that the administration is just as incompetent for not taking the time to document the problems, follow the disciplinary roadmap, and complete the tasks they have to complete to remove the teacher.

Tenure isn't some magic wand where a teacher can slap a kid, send a dick pic to the class, drink a 40 on the job and then say 'tenure biatch'. Bad conduct, including perpetual poor performance, is still grounds for termination.


That's the theory.  In practice they are all but unfirable in many places.

weasil: If you ask a 10-year-old who the "better" teacher is, they aren't exactly in the best position to say, since they judge "better" on a different scale than adults. I've found parents are also frequently misled into believing that the teacher that rolls out the coolest-looking projects at Open House is the "better" teacher. Or the one that always gives in to whatever parents want, whether that's in the best interest of the student or not. And "better" is different from kid to kid. I know that I'm not a good teacher for certain kinds of kids, but that I'm the best kind of teacher for others (I'm very structured). I trust my colleagues in the grades below me to know what kinds of kids go best with which kinds of teachers, and set us all up with groups that will work well together.


I agree, although one thing I think would help:  Look at what the A students say about teachers.  Especially ask A students who got a C or less in one class why that happened.  If you hear the *SAME* gripe about the teacher from a bunch of students... (For example, one English teacher I had--your grade was based more on whether she agreed with your position than right or wrong.  I also learned to deliberately ignore what I knew on her true false tests--I could score better by just looking at the form of the questions {anything stated in the positive is true, anything stated in the negative is false--that would put me well into A territory} than trying to guess her biases.)

The higher the grade level the better this will work.

Old_Chief_Scott: And you can keep a very poor teacher on the payroll by giving them the "easy" kids so that they can stick around a few more years and get to that next rung on the retirement ladder. How do you make a fair evaluation system with those sorts of intangibles to deal with?


One thing I would do--evaluate the students as well as the teachers.  (Test scores, discipline issues, whatever else is reasonably available.)  Teachers are scored more on the change in the students than in the final result.  A 7th grade teacher who takes a bunch of good 6th graders and makes them into a bunch of good 7th graders is an average 7th grade teacher.  A 7th grade teacher who takes a bunch of kids who scored at 4th grade level and turns them into kids who score at the 6th grade level is far above average.

muddythinker: I had so many bad teachers that would have been fired but for tenure -- more power to the plaintiffs. Why should teachers and bureaucrats have such highly protected positions?


8th grade math--I could almost always do math faster in my head than she could with a calculator.  After my mother raised hell with the school it ended up with my mother teaching me and one other student geometry.  The teacher tried to grade *ONE* set of homework--and marked wrong a bunch of correct stuff because our answers weren't written as concisely as the book's.  She didn't have the knowledge to understand we were saying the same thing.

Last I knew she was teaching the slow version of algebra 1-2 in high school.  I'm sure those students learned basically nothing.  (And I'm pretty sure she couldn't have passed the class herself.)

mangeybear: max_pooper: And nobody has been able to come up with a metric that does that.

Why is that so?  Why not say something like "if a teacher has kids that score lower than the other teachers in the same grade for more than three years, they're out!".  Wouldn't that normalize out the "bad students, bad administration, ... etc?


Every inner city school loses it's teachers every 4 years.
 
2014-06-10 08:27:32 PM  

justinguarini4ever: silly season: Ok, Farkers. I want you to recall every School Admin story that we have all seen on Fark. Every Zero Tolerance, Over - reliance on School Policy decision, and just brain dead School Admin plan and action.

Those are the same people deciding who is and isn't a good teacher.... IF you want good teachers to go into that job and stay. They have to have some protection other than At-Will jobs.

That is why Tenure is needed....

Tenure is fine. The current process for dismissing grossly incompetent teachers is not. Having handled EPL insurance for a school district and seen the district settle with a teacher who was caught giving the students the answers for a standardized tests for $250,000, it seems the process is messed up.


So stipulated. The real question that hasn't been asked is which is the least - worse outcome? In other words, are there more instances of all but impossible to fire teachers? Or due to the many variables that surround Teaching, that Tenure for more experienced teachers is better in the long run?

My opinion is that the impossible to fire teachers outcome is in comparatively few States. The extreme complications that are part of teaching is in all the States and the least - worse outcome is Tenure.
 
2014-06-10 09:57:10 PM  
So, yeah.  I have two brothers who teach.  Both in under-privledged areas.  One in KS, one in Chicago.  The latter teaches the blind and volunteers at the local VA rehabilitating soldiers who've lost their sight; teaching them to read braile and such.  He married a doctor, so money isn't really an issue.  The KS brother teaches chemistry.  His pay sucks and his wife works at a local private school, makes more with less experience, and oddly enough, her complaint is that the kids get to her far below the point they should on any measure of competence, be it math, english comprehension, grammar, or speaking skills(she's a science teacher).

/KS brother has an interesting approach to parents' day: "We can go over the curriculum, or I can show you the advanced 'Why stuff blows up' course."
//14 years and no parental "class" has heard his curriculum, yet
 
2014-06-10 10:06:07 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

Scrapping the system isn't the way to go, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to find a way to streamline the removal of genuinely bad actors in the teaching community.

The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.


Somehow private schools manage to perform well without tenure.

How about an independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if a teacher is any good.
 
2014-06-10 10:43:03 PM  

anfrind: weasil: That said, anyone convicted of an abuse of their power as a teacher should lose their teaching license. I don't think you're going to find anyone backing the kiddy-diddlers on any front here.

So why was it so damn hard to fire that one teacher who made his third-grade class eat semen?


Because administrators didn't do their jobs...but let's have ALL teachers suffer because of that...this farking judge is a dickwad
 
2014-06-10 10:46:59 PM  
Here's the thing tho, we aren't talking about someone doing QA on toilet paper. Teachers have so much control over the futures of these children... I had some teachers actively trying to get me to fail I had to be put in other classes. Teachers need to be able to be fired without a rubber room keeping admins from pulling the trigger.
 
2014-06-10 10:56:49 PM  

slayer199: TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

Scrapping the system isn't the way to go, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to find a way to streamline the removal of genuinely bad actors in the teaching community.

The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.

Somehow private schools manage to perform well without tenure.

How about an independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if a teacher is any good.


Ok. I'll bite. You $ay that can't think of any rea$on why private $chool$ do well. Gee, that'$ a $tumper alright. Maybe because private schools don't have to take any and all students? No, that can't be it. There may be another reason. I'm sure I'll think of it. I'm forced to guess what you feel makes a private school. I will assume a school that the parents that are sending their kids to, also directly pay the school and have a personal and financial interest in the outcomes. I.e highly involved parents.

An independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if teacher is any good.
Evaluate based on what? Test scores?  What kind of testing? Multiple choice? Highly subjective essays? For Kindergarten? 1st? 2nd? Do you really think testing proves anything? Best teaching practices? How would parents or random citizens have any idea whatsoever what best teaching is?

An independent board? What is that? The people in the area that the school covers? Is that your idea of independent? Or are your thinking of something like jury duty of people that don't have any tie to that school? Because everyone knows how much all citizens want to participate in jury duty. I'm sure you would get very similar results in your school pool as in your jury pool.

The people you would end up with would be the same people that aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty or Young Earth Creationists trying to push their views into the public school system. But I may be repeating myself.

 / All this magical thinking that there is somehow a board, a law, a test that gives perfect answers to dealing with imperfect people.
 
2014-06-10 11:08:29 PM  

slayer199: TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

Scrapping the system isn't the way to go, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to find a way to streamline the removal of genuinely bad actors in the teaching community.

The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.

Somehow private schools manage to perform well without tenure.

How about an independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if a teacher is any good.


Private schools perform well for the same reasons as charter schools - they can choose who they accept.  The top students at any public school will perform as well as the top students of any charter or private school, but the public schools have total scores dragged down by all of the kids they have to accept that would never be accepted by a private or a charter.

The public schools often have better pay and better benefits than the private schools.  The only reason that the private schools find teachers at all is because the job is a cakewalk compared to teaching in a public school.
 
2014-06-10 11:33:29 PM  

Allen262: Iluvbeer: One teacher in LA was actually arrested and convicted of feeding kids semen and the school district had to pay him $40K to go away because it was cheaper than letting him exhaust all his legal protections afforded through tenure. (http://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2012/02/09/4616/lausd-paid-4000 0-s ettle-case-miramonte-teacher-acc/ )

[www.cavemancircus.com image 500x282]

[img.fark.net image 320x240]


But according to the liberal submitter, we are just being racist/sexist for letting them go.
 
2014-06-10 11:50:11 PM  
For those who are interested, there's an Assembly Bill in the legislature that would streamline the dismissal process. Here's the bill itself:  http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=2 0 1320140AB215

Here's the union's summary of why it would be good, including stepping up timelines to get things done, and having a separate pathway for "egregious offenses" (like semen-cookies): http://www.cta.org/Issues-and-Action/Legislation/Teacher-Dismissal-Bi l l-AB-215.aspx

Thanks!
 
2014-06-10 11:56:18 PM  

weasil: For those who are interested, there's an Assembly Bill in the legislature that would streamline the dismissal process. Here's the bill itself:  http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=2 0 1320140AB215

Here's the union's summary of why it would be good, including stepping up timelines to get things done, and having a separate pathway for "egregious offenses" (like semen-cookies): http://www.cta.org/Issues-and-Action/Legislation/Teacher-Dismissal-Bi l l-AB-215.aspx

Thanks!


You mean there's room for those most familiar with the system to make some tweaks to improve the overall efficiency instead of just throwing the whole thing out?  Well fark me in the ass and call me Susan, whoever came up with that must be a wizard.
 
2014-06-11 12:02:20 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: slayer199: TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.

Scrapping the system isn't the way to go, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to find a way to streamline the removal of genuinely bad actors in the teaching community.

The problem is, of course, how do you determine who is genuinely bad in the position vs who is the victim of false accusations, office politics, or unable to do their job effectively due to non-existant or poor administrative support.

Somehow private schools manage to perform well without tenure.

How about an independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if a teacher is any good.

Private schools perform well for the same reasons as charter schools - they can choose who they accept.  The top students at any public school will perform as well as the top students of any charter or private school, but the public schools have total scores dragged down by all of the kids they have to accept that would never be accepted by a private or a charter.

The public schools often have better pay and better benefits than the private schools.  The only reason that the private schools find teachers at all is because the job is a cakewalk compared to teaching in a public school.


Ok TuteTibiImperes, you are assuming the poorer, possibly religion based schools from the term "private schools". I was thinking the more elite type. But that just underlines the problem here. There are a lot of unspoken assumptions around teaching. Until what is being talked about is defined, there can't be good answers.

slayer199 - I'm not really trying to pick on you. But, you appear to represent the outside pressure problems in trying to deal with teaching in U.S. schools today. You appear to be educated, and you appear to feel that since you made it through school, there is no reason everyone shouldn't. I apologize if I have it wrong.

We haven't even begun to talk about overcrowded classrooms, victims of crime and/or rape, conflicting personalities, drug problems, latchkey kids, homeless kids, abusive parents, learning disabilities, students with severe mental health issues, gangs and not wanting to appear smart, kids that have every single one of the prior list and other problems that I can't think of right now.

And somehow, there is an objective standard for the "Great" and "Good" teachers? There is no such thing. But people that have an opinion on a subject that they have no experience in, on the other side of the teacher's desk are oh-so-sure they know the situation and answers.

The situation looks totally different when you are the one attempting to keep control of, deal with all the different attitudes and personalities of, and somehow teach 20, 25, 30, 30+ kids, that are in some grade between Kinder and 12th. With no real support from the school admins that don't think it is their problem, at all. For a whole school day. And the Next, and the one after that. Until the holidays or summer. Or Happy Hour, whichever comes first!
 
2014-06-11 12:14:02 AM  
Let's compare California state judges to what the plaintiffs demand of teachers.
1. Do judges that sentence defendants with lower rates of recidivism get higher pay than ones with higher rates of recidivism? No.
2.  In respect to Question1, do the disparate outcomes for poor and minorities in the legal system result in removal of judges from the bench even if no breach of judicial ethical standards occurs?  No.
3.  Is judicial pay merit based on the volume of cases or a standardized test of judicial efficiency? No.
4.  Is is difficult and/or expensive to remove an incompetent, or unethical judge?  Yes. California spends about $4 million a year on an average of 1,000 formal complaints lodged against judges and removes about 1 judge per year on average over the last decade.
5.  Can a judge be removed during their term for anything less than an egregious violation of judicial ethics or near absolute incompetence? No. (Lower court judges can be removed at a retention election, but there's no standardized testing results presented to voters when they make the decision to vote to retain judges or not)
6.  Is judicial competency or merit pay measured by case volume or the rate of reversal on appeal? No.
7. Do California judges have to be a member of a trade guild or union? Yes-the California bar.
7.  Does the California state constitution guarantee equal protection of the law for all? Yes.
8.  Has the fact that the California judges are not compensated on a merit pay system or that it is difficult and expensive to remove an incompetent or unethical judge and that outcomes in the California court system differ significantly for parties who are poor and/or a minority in comparison to others who are not resulted in a judge finding the system of judicial tenure in California is unconstitutional under the state constitution's guarantee of equal protection of the law? Of farkin course not.
7.  Regarding Question 6 has any judge ordered the entire system of judicial appointments and tenure be scrapped as unconstitutional because of the disparate impact of judges upon poor and/minority parties?

I'm sure the judge here would just jump at the chance to follow his same line of reasoning in his opinion to eliminate his own job protection.
 
2014-06-11 12:15:54 AM  
Damn- should have proof read my numbering in the last post.
 
2014-06-11 12:18:39 AM  
Some reasonable objections to the plaintiff's premises in the suit:  http://accomplishedcaliforniateachers.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/eight- p roblems-with-the-vergara-lawsuit/
 
2014-06-11 12:19:20 AM  

stan unusual: Damn- should have proof read my numbering in the last post.


I figured you just really like 7.
 
2014-06-11 12:20:22 AM  

stan unusual: Damn- should have proof read my numbering in the last post.


I'm a public school grad and I don't see any problem!
 
2014-06-11 12:26:22 AM  

SubBass49: anfrind: weasil: That said, anyone convicted of an abuse of their power as a teacher should lose their teaching license. I don't think you're going to find anyone backing the kiddy-diddlers on any front here.

So why was it so damn hard to fire that one teacher who made his third-grade class eat semen?

Because administrators didn't do their jobs...but let's have ALL teachers suffer because of that...this farking judge is a dickwad


Point taken.
 
2014-06-11 01:17:01 AM  

anfrind: SubBass49: anfrind: weasil: That said, anyone convicted of an abuse of their power as a teacher should lose their teaching license. I don't think you're going to find anyone backing the kiddy-diddlers on any front here.

So why was it so damn hard to fire that one teacher who made his third-grade class eat semen?

Because administrators didn't do their jobs...but let's have ALL teachers suffer because of that...this farking judge is a dickwad

Point taken.


Yeah, that one was a HUGE mismanagement. If any single teacher or administrator had any suspicion whatsoever that any misconduct was happening, they were REQUIRED BY LAW AS A MANDATED REPORTER to file a report, which they could do anonymously. I had to do this once when a kid showed up with weird bruising, I asked about it, and they said their dad beat them for something. Even if they had said they fell off their bike, the nature of the bruising was enough for me to NEED to file a report. The dad had the cops on his doorstep in hours.

They did NOT need to go through a dismissal process to get him out of the classroom. They could have gone straight to the cops and had him jailed, and thus removed from the classroom and any further victims. That's part of why they shut the school down and rebooted it with new staff  --- to find out who was so farked up as to think it was not worth the trouble to keep that from happening.
 
2014-06-11 01:17:23 AM  

stan unusual: Let's compare California state judges to what the plaintiffs demand of teachers.
1. Do judges that sentence defendants with lower rates of recidivism get higher pay than ones with higher rates of recidivism? No.
2.  In respect to Question1, do the disparate outcomes for poor and minorities in the legal system result in removal of judges from the bench even if no breach of judicial ethical standards occurs?  No.
3.  Is judicial pay merit based on the volume of cases or a standardized test of judicial efficiency? No.
4.  Is is difficult and/or expensive to remove an incompetent, or unethical judge?  Yes. California spends about $4 million a year on an average of 1,000 formal complaints lodged against judges and removes about 1 judge per year on average over the last decade.
5.  Can a judge be removed during their term for anything less than an egregious violation of judicial ethics or near absolute incompetence? No. (Lower court judges can be removed at a retention election, but there's no standardized testing results presented to voters when they make the decision to vote to retain judges or not)
6.  Is judicial competency or merit pay measured by case volume or the rate of reversal on appeal? No.
7. Do California judges have to be a member of a trade guild or union? Yes-the California bar.
7.  Does the California state constitution guarantee equal protection of the law for all? Yes.
8.  Has the fact that the California judges are not compensated on a merit pay system or that it is difficult and expensive to remove an incompetent or unethical judge and that outcomes in the California court system differ significantly for parties who are poor and/or a minority in comparison to others who are not resulted in a judge finding the system of judicial tenure in California is unconstitutional under the state constitution's guarantee of equal protection of the law? Of farkin course not.
7.  Regarding Question 6 has any judge ordered the entire system of judicial appointments ...


On the judges issue. Has it been shown that judges are responsible for a disproportionate impact on minorities in the justice system, probably not. I see your point, but the unequal treatment of poor and minorities if your referring to the criminal system could be due to the prosecutors and poorly resourced public defender offices or in the civil system due to the reluctance to take on pro bono work by lawyers in general rather than anything the judges are doing. Judges are bound by some pretty strict procedures in many areas where you are likely thinking discrimination occurs (criminal sentencing is primarily determined by statute rather than judicial discretion).

There is probably a hell of a lot more monitoring of judges by the members who appear before them than any teacher will ever experience.  Judges are evaluated every day on the bench by often hostile lawyers, if misconduct is occurring, usually the proper parties are notified and it is addressed.  There are also a hell of a lot fewer judges to keep track of with less than 2,300 judges at all levels (traffic through supreme court of Califorina) in the state of California which can go to the low numbers in terms of discipline and removal you cite.
 
2014-06-11 01:27:57 AM  
Maybe this will finally stop all those school shootings.
 
2014-06-11 01:48:53 AM  

Daedalus27: I see your point, but the unequal treatment of poor and minorities if your referring to the criminal system

educational system could be due to the prosecutors socioeconomic status of the students and poorly resourced public defender offices parents and communities or in the civil system due to the reluctance to take on pro bono work by lawyers admit there are any other factors in play in general rather than anything the judges teachers are or aren't doing.

I know I just put a lot of words in your mouth. Sorry about that, but it just shows how easily the same "excuses" that teachers are accused of making can easily be made for other groups. It's not the judges' fault that poor people and minorities go to jail a lot, I mean, you can only sentence the people that the cops actually arrest, am i right?

We need to focus on what is actually causing the educational problems and the disparities in outcomes, because there are plenty of problems that could be tackled. This lawsuit was brought about NOT by parents and children comparing notes and rising up against the system. It was funded by a consortium of anti-public-school "reformers" who actively recruited disaffected students. One of the teachers involved was accused of not even providing assignments for her students to do, she was teaching NOTHING according to the student. She was, however, able to provide a detailed syllabus and copies of dozens of assignments from the class that student took with her. She had also just the year before been named Teacher of the Year for her district. She actually is one of the new, young, fresh, energetic teachers that people keep saying are being drummed out by the current system. This lawsuit was BS.

Anyhow, I had posted above some links to info on AB215 - legislation in the works to improve the dismissal process. Yes, it can be made better, and that does not require the removal of all due process protections.
 
2014-06-11 03:02:41 AM  

weasil: Daedalus27: I see your point, but the unequal treatment of poor and minorities if your referring to the criminal systemeducational system could be due to the prosecutors socioeconomic status of the students and poorly resourced public defender offices parents and communities or in the civil system due to the reluctance to take on pro bono work by lawyers admit there are any other factors in play in general rather than anything the judges teachers are or aren't doing.

I know I just put a lot of words in your mouth. Sorry about that, but it just shows how easily the same "excuses" that teachers are accused of making can easily be made for other groups. It's not the judges' fault that poor people and minorities go to jail a lot, I mean, you can only sentence the people that the cops actually arrest, am i right?

We need to focus on what is actually causing the educational problems and the disparities in outcomes, because there are plenty of problems that could be tackled. This lawsuit was brought about NOT by parents and children comparing notes and rising up against the system. It was funded by a consortium of anti-public-school "reformers" who actively recruited disaffected students. One of the teachers involved was accused of not even providing assignments for her students to do, she was teaching NOTHING according to the student. She was, however, able to provide a detailed syllabus and copies of dozens of assignments from the class that student took with her. She had also just the year before been named Teacher of the Year for her district. She actually is one of the new, young, fresh, energetic teachers that people keep saying are being drummed out by the current system. This lawsuit was BS.

Anyhow, I had posted above some links to info on AB215 - legislation in the works to improve the dismissal process. Yes, it can be made better, and that does not require the removal of all due process protections.


Teachers take what they are given and in some areas there isn't much they are given to work with.  I get that.  The question remains why grant these protections on the job to begin with that are not found in most professions so early on in a career just 2 years after they are on the job.  In many professions you are still just getting you feet wet at that time yet for teachers in California, they are granted huge protections at that point when we still may not know if they are effective. You want to keep tenure and grant it at 10 years, we can think about it, but 2 years is just insane.  Furthermore, why is last in first out the best method for layoffs when saving on labor costs by removing longer term, more expensive, less effective teachers could allow an extra couple younger teachers who may provide more bang for the district buck. Most jobs have to deal with shiatty bosses, office politics, etc. why do teachers need extra protections not found elsewhere?

I understand it is difficult to evaluate teachers.  Test scores are very imprecise and would need to be normalized to try and capture the difference between teaching in Beverly hills and teaching in Compton to all ESL gangbangers.  A peer review process with outside evaluators could supplement test scores to provide a more comprehensive idea.  I doubt that a good method can be agreed upon by everyone, but something should be agreed on and we need to move to try and improve aspects of education that are under the control of the state.  We can't change students (well maybe we could if we recognize that some students disrupt the education process and will not participate so should be transferred to a more penal environment to allow those who want to learn to learn more effectively), we can't demand parent involvement unfortunately, the materials certainly could be adjusted with some of that asinine common core issues (I just don't understand how you are teaching math anymore), but teachers are most readily available (and blamed) to alter to try and improve things.
 
2014-06-11 09:30:56 AM  
...and incompetence
 
2014-06-11 11:45:15 AM  

stan unusual: Some reasonable objections to the plaintiff's premises in the suit:  http://accomplishedcaliforniateachers.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/eight- p roblems-with-the-vergara-lawsuit/


Somewhat right.  You can't identify bad teachers by test scores unless you look at prior test scores as well.  There are teachers that should go, though, and that rebuttal doesn't address the issue at all.

Daedalus27: Test scores are very imprecise and would need to be normalized to try and capture the difference between teaching in Beverly hills and teaching in Compton to all ESL gangbangers.


I wouldn't even do i based on Beverly Hills vs Compton.  Rather, look at last year's test scores for the same students.  How much improvement was there?  When you compare across the board you just end up keeping the teachers who cheat and firing the honest ones.
 
2014-06-11 12:27:52 PM  

Daedalus27: The question remains why grant these protections on the job to begin with that are not found in most professions so early on in a career just 2 years after they are on the job.


In the Boobies I made in this thread, I said I would rather it were 5 years. I base this on a study (by the National Commission on Teaching and America's Future)  that showed that nearly half of new teachers wash out willingly before then.

Daedalus27: why is last in first out the best method for layoffs when saving on labor costs by removing longer term, more expensive, less effective teachers could allow an extra couple younger teachers who may provide more bang for the district buck.


Because you can rig the system to make a "less effective" teacher and thereby make it a job no one feels safe in.
Because some admins only see dollar signs.
Because it turns schools into factories for chewing up and spitting teachers out --- that one's old? Mark down their evaluations and move them out! New teachers are better! Oh right, they're not, they have a 46% burnout rate
Because it sets up a competitive situation amongst teachers that's counter to the collaboration necessary for a healthy school culture.
Because teachers will be less likely to speak out about abuses when they know the system can be turned against them.
And as someone else mentioned: because it's inefficient.

Daedalus27: why do teachers need extra protections not found elsewhere?


Why are these protections NOT found elsewhere? Why shouldn't people have the ability to say, "You fired me unfairly"? These protections actually are found elsewhere (cops have them too), in jobs where abuses happened in the past, unions stepped in, and the abuses stopped. As I said above, THAT'S WHY UNIONS HAPPEN. Because abuses happen. Why do we get a union? Because we demanded one. Why doesn't everyone have a union? Because not every employer is an asshole, for one. Lots of people don't need the protections because they aren't being abused. Another reason people don't all have unions is because they have nothing to bargain with, primarily because they are easily replaceable. Contrary to popular internet tough guy rhetoric, teachers are not easily replaceable.

Daedalus27: I understand it is difficult to evaluate teachers.


It's actually not. It's just time consuming. The best way to evaluate a teacher is to watch them teach. My evaluation process? Two observations in class of half an hour each.That's 0.2% of my teaching time. One hour out of 480. This is how the bad teachers thrive. Almost anyone can turn on the dog-and-pony show for 30 minutes and look awesome. The only teachers this weeds out are the truly incompetent bumbling idiots. You could multiply this requirement by 10 and still have only a tiny fraction of an idea what goes on in my class. But if you did that, the admins would have time for nothing else. Your suggestion of an outside evaluator would be beneficial here, in terms of time, but it would set up a situation where my administrator may never see me in my classroom. That's a bit messed up. The administration needs to be in touch with what's going on in the classrooms on their campus.

I definitely hope that increased oversight and a complete revamp of the evaluation procedures comes along with the reforms in the dismissal process.

Daedalus27: that asinine common core issues (I just don't understand how you are teaching math anymore)


The BS with the common core is just that: BS. They are a set of standards, nothing more. I can choose ANY method of delivering them, including teaching things the same way they've been taught for centuries (esp. in math). The asinine crap that's passing for common core is NOT IN ANY WAY required by the standards. They are examples of school districts buying materials without thoroughly evaluating them and then forcing their teachers to use them. It's the latest in magic pill curricula. My district does not do this. They involve teachers in the evaluation of materials and in the selection of textbook series, and they allow teachers to supplement those as they see fit. They learned their lesson by trying to enforce a lockstep curriculum delivery in language arts that started about 12 years ago and it failed miserably, giving us little robots who could parrot but not comprehend.

So the next time you see something stupid labeled "common core" --- odds are it is a publisher's interpretation. Moments of change are an opportunity for lots of possible methods to be tried; only the ones that work will still be with us 5 years from now. Unfortunately, esp. in those districts who strongarm their teachers into using crap, kids will lack a solid foundation in certain skills.
 
2014-06-11 01:04:38 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Tenure is, overall, a good thing, and helps protect teachers from incompetent administrators and crazy parents.


Incompetent administrators need to be replaced as well, and crazy parents are seasonal.

I disagree; overall Tenure is a BAD thing.

TuteTibiImperes: Some of the charters don't have to lie - they just only take the kids they want to take.  It's pretty easy to produce great test results when you only admit kids with motivated and involved parents.


Step 1 of demonstrating that the parents of the child are motivated and involved?

Answer: They're arsed enough to actually apply to have their kid in a charter school.

weasil: This last year 1/4 of his class was special ed. He always has the lowest scores.


Special ed status is easy to track and should be compensated for.
 
2014-06-11 01:18:32 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-06-11 01:55:20 PM  

weasil: Why are these protections NOT found elsewhere?


Because everyone knows the protections are abused.  I know it, and you know it (or you didn't follow iluvbeer's links).  You can argue that the evidence is anecdotal (although unlike your MMA teacher friend story, the union abuses are documented), but you can't argue that lousy teachers that don't deserve to be teaching are protected.   And here's another link, in case you're still not convinced.

So, now that we know unequivocally that the abuse exists, the question is how much.  You probably think the number is very small, and I think there's more.  Maybe not a whole lot, but even in my kids' good, middle class school, there are a handful of teachers that should working at the DMV, or McDonalds, or Target, or something.  There has to be an objective measure of how good a teacher is, and that measure should be test scores of the children.  Don't grant tenure to someone unless whatever school district they're in, there scores are in line with the scores of other teachers in the same grade for an extended period.  And to factor out your "principal keeps giving my friend bad students", then compare the test scores of their students with the same students percentiles from earlier in the year, or the previous grade, or something.  Don't remove someone who does bad in year 1, or 2, or 3, but by year 4, if they continue bad results, their out.  And if they change jobs within the district, their history travels with them.  And if they move out of a district, they start all over the on the tenure path.

And I'm sure you're ready to give me the "teaching to the test" counter argument, but I'll say this:  the SAT is a great predictor of professional capabilities.  If you taught someone just to do well on the SAT, you'll find they do pretty well on a lot of other things.
 
2014-06-11 01:57:16 PM  
Why shouldn't people have the ability to say, "You fired me unfairly"?


You can say it all you like. No one's stopping you.
 
2014-06-11 03:22:17 PM  

Daedalus27: stan unusual: Let's compare California state judges to what the plaintiffs demand of teachers.
1. Do judges that sentence defendants with lower rates of recidivism get higher pay than ones with higher rates of recidivism? No....

On the judges issue. Has it been shown that judges are responsible for a disproportionate impact on minorities in the justice system, probably not. I see your point, but the unequal treatment of poor and minorities if your referring to the criminal system could be due to the prosecutors and poorly resourced public defender offices or in the civil system due to the reluctance to take on pro bono work by lawyers in general rather than anything the judges are doing. Judges are bound by some pretty strict procedures in many areas where you are likely thinking discrimination occurs (criminal sentencing is primarily determined by statute rather than judicial discretion).

There is probably a hell of a lot more monitoring of judges by the members who appear before them than any teacher will ever experience.  Judges are evaluated every day on the bench by often hostile lawyers, if misconduct is occurring, usually the proper parties are notified and it is addressed.  There are also a hell of a lot fewer judges to keep track of with less than 2,300 judges at all levels (traffic through supreme court of Califorina) in the state of California which can go to the low numbers in terms of discipline and removal you cite.


Of course it's not fair to ascribe the disparities in the California courts solely to judges, which was my point and there have been studies that have shown a disparate impact on minorities by sentencing judges in the past. But to carry the illustration further- the opinion striking down tenure relies on comparisons akin to comparing the felony recidivism rate for traffic court judges with those from Superior Court.  They just aren't equivalent because of pre-selection in the populations the two different courts deal with and they certainly aren't based on some standardized testing of their defendants they sentence unlike the evidence presented to strike down tenure.  Judges do get routinely evaluated by people who have first hand knowledge of their work and recognized expertise in law- the bar members who practice before them, but they don't determine merit pay, or determine who is the first to go if there is a cut in judges, or determine their tenure as the plaintiffs in the teacher tenure case advocate.

I readily admit that the comparison is not exact, in fact the two jobs are radically different.  But having been a public school teacher, a college adjunct and an attorney. I know that it is difficult to the point of near impossibility to try to construct and affordably implement an objective system of measurement for either a teacher or a judge's work.  It is easy to construct one that serves your purposes if your objective is to promote your political policy preferences and not one that takes all of the relevant factors into consideration and is protected against biases inherent in the structure of the study.
 
2014-06-11 04:48:23 PM  

weasil: It's actually not. It's just time consuming. The best way to evaluate a teacher is to watch them teach. My evaluation process? Two observations in class of half an hour each.That's 0.2% of my teaching time. One hour out of 480. This is how the bad teachers thrive. Almost anyone can turn on the dog-and-pony show for 30 minutes and look awesome. The only teachers this weeds out are the truly incompetent bumbling idiots. You could multiply this requirement by 10 and still have only a tiny fraction of an idea what goes on in my class. But if you did that, the admins would have time for nothing else. Your suggestion of an outside evaluator would be beneficial here, in terms of time, but it would set up a situation where my administrator may never see me in my classroom. That's a bit messed up. The administration needs to be in touch with what's going on in the classrooms on their campus.

I definitely hope that increased oversight and a complete revamp of the evaluation procedures comes along with the reforms in the dismissal process.


Here is an NEA pdf talking about the program Peer Assisted Review which was implemented around these parts. I have friends that have participated in the program from the reviewer side and it does involve time. They spend the first year of a teachers employment doing random visits, once a week(or more) and provide recommendation for renewal of contract at the end of the year. The reviewers are also prohibited from staying in the program longer than three years and are not allowed to join the program after they have been in it once.
 
2014-06-11 09:06:10 PM  

mangeybear: weasil: Why are these protections NOT found elsewhere?

Because everyone knows the protections are abused.  I know it, and you know it (or you didn't follow iluvbeer's links).  You can argue that the evidence is anecdotal (although unlike your MMA teacher friend story, the union abuses are documented), but you can't argue that lousy teachers that don't deserve to be teaching are protected.   And here's another link, in case you're still not convinced.

So, now that we know unequivocally that the abuse exists, the question is how much.  You probably think the number is very small, and I think there's more.  Maybe not a whole lot, but even in my kids' good, middle class school, there are a handful of teachers that should working at the DMV, or McDonalds, or Target, or something.   There has to be an objective measure of how good a teacher is, and that measure should be test scores of the children.  Don't grant tenure to someone unless whatever school district they're in, there scores are in line with the scores of other teachers in the same grade for an extended period.  And to factor out your "principal keeps giving my friend bad students", then compare the test scores of their students with the same students percentiles from earlier in the year, or the previous grade, or something.  Don't remove someone who does bad in year 1, or 2, or 3, but by year 4, if they continue bad results, their out.  And if they change jobs within the district, their history travels with them.  And if they move out of a district, they start all over the on the tenure path.

And I'm sure you're ready to give me the "teaching to the test" counter argument, but I'll say this:  the SAT is a great predictor of professional capabilities.  If you taught someone just to do well on the SAT, you'll find they do pretty well on a lot of other things.



Why, exactly, does there have to be an objective measure of how good a teacher is? Why should it be test results? Because you want it to exist and therefore it must exist? That is nothing more than Magical Thinking that you should have left behind in elementary school. Not something to be pushing as National Policy for the future.

What do you want to measure? Useless regurgitation of facts? I know any Farker here can make a test that 100% of students can pass. (Hint, the answer is "C".) But what have you measured?

Or do you want to measure critical and original thinking? One way to do that would be to give a kid a bunch of Legos and see what they make. But how do you objectively grade that? Your tastes will always affect that kind of thing.

Upthread another Farker and I appeared to have a disagreement on what a Private School was. I was thinking the Elite institutions, and he appeared to be thinking of poorer, non-public, possibly religion based schooling. It is all too easy to have your test questions and answers just riddled with that kind of unspoken assumption. (Riddled in the sense of shot through and through, not a form of humor.) English is just that kind of language.

That is the problem with No Child Left Behind. The Unspoken, Unexamined, Unproven insistence as National Policy that testing somehow does more than teach kids to regurgitate useless facts and somehow be able to be creative by doing so. Yes, there are research based studies. But those still only give methods to try and not concrete steps to perform for all students, under all grades, under all circumstances.

Teaching is still an Art. Not A Science!

Now, with the previous rant in mind. I'll let you determine the unexamined assumptions in your second Bolded statement. (Hint - SATs and 2nd graders.)
 
2014-06-11 09:06:32 PM  

silly season: Ok. I'll bite. You $ay that can't think of any rea$on why private $chool$ do well. Gee, that'$ a $tumper alright. Maybe because private schools don't have to take any and all students? No, that can't be it. There may be another reason. I'm sure I'll think of it. I'm forced to guess what you feel makes a private school. I will assume a school that the parents that are sending their kids to, also directly pay the school and have a personal and financial interest in the outcomes. I.e highly involved parents.

An independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if teacher is any good.
Evaluate based on what? Test scores? What kind of testing? Multiple choice? Highly subjective essays? For Kindergarten? 1st? 2nd? Do you really think testing proves anything? Best teaching practices? How would parents or random citizens have any idea whatsoever what best teaching is?

An independent board? What is that? The people in the area that the school covers? Is that your idea of independent? Or are your thinking of something like jury duty of people that don't have any tie to that school? Because everyone knows how much all citizens want to participate in jury duty. I'm sure you would get very similar results in your school pool as in your jury pool.

The people you would end up with would be the same people that aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty or Young Earth Creationists trying to push their views into the public school system. But I may be repeating myself.

/ All this magical thinking that there is somehow a board, a law, a test that gives perfect answers to dealing with imperfect people.


Uh, private school teachers make less than their public school counterparts...so I'm not sure what your point is about money.  The reason that private schools perform better is competition.  If the teachers don't perform, if the school doesn't deliver on those tuition dollars, guess what...the school goes under.  There's strong incentive for the school to perform.

So you'd prefer to stick with a broken public school system that makes it virtually impossible to fire a teacher...good luck with that...it's worked out so well for the US.  But the solution is always to throw more money at the problem.  Of course, the politicians that continue to sell the public on "fixing" the public schools with more money never mention that their kids go to private schools.
 
2014-06-11 09:20:31 PM  

slayer199: silly season: Ok. I'll bite. You $ay that can't think of any rea$on why private $chool$ do well. Gee, that'$ a $tumper alright. Maybe because private schools don't have to take any and all students? No, that can't be it. There may be another reason. I'm sure I'll think of it. I'm forced to guess what you feel makes a private school. I will assume a school that the parents that are sending their kids to, also directly pay the school and have a personal and financial interest in the outcomes. I.e highly involved parents.

An independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if teacher is any good.
Evaluate based on what? Test scores? What kind of testing? Multiple choice? Highly subjective essays? For Kindergarten? 1st? 2nd? Do you really think testing proves anything? Best teaching practices? How would parents or random citizens have any idea whatsoever what best teaching is?

An independent board? What is that? The people in the area that the school covers? Is that your idea of independent? Or are your thinking of something like jury duty of people that don't have any tie to that school? Because everyone knows how much all citizens want to participate in jury duty. I'm sure you would get very similar results in your school pool as in your jury pool.

The people you would end up with would be the same people that aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty or Young Earth Creationists trying to push their views into the public school system. But I may be repeating myself.

/ All this magical thinking that there is somehow a board, a law, a test that gives perfect answers to dealing with imperfect people.

Uh, private school teachers make less than their public school counterparts...so I'm not sure what your point is about money.  The reason that private schools perform better is competition.  If the teachers don't perform, if the school doesn't deliver on those tuition dollars, guess what...the school goes under.  There's strong incentive for the scho ...


Sorry, see my comment just before this one. I was thinking Elite Institutions when an undefined "Private School" was mentioned.
 
2014-06-11 09:38:23 PM  

silly season: slayer199: silly season: Ok. I'll bite. You $ay that can't think of any rea$on why private $chool$ do well. Gee, that'$ a $tumper alright. Maybe because private schools don't have to take any and all students? No, that can't be it. There may be another reason. I'm sure I'll think of it. I'm forced to guess what you feel makes a private school. I will assume a school that the parents that are sending their kids to, also directly pay the school and have a personal and financial interest in the outcomes. I.e highly involved parents.

An independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if teacher is any good.
Evaluate based on what? Test scores? What kind of testing? Multiple choice? Highly subjective essays? For Kindergarten? 1st? 2nd? Do you really think testing proves anything? Best teaching practices? How would parents or random citizens have any idea whatsoever what best teaching is?

An independent board? What is that? The people in the area that the school covers? Is that your idea of independent? Or are your thinking of something like jury duty of people that don't have any tie to that school? Because everyone knows how much all citizens want to participate in jury duty. I'm sure you would get very similar results in your school pool as in your jury pool.

The people you would end up with would be the same people that aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty or Young Earth Creationists trying to push their views into the public school system. But I may be repeating myself.

/ All this magical thinking that there is somehow a board, a law, a test that gives perfect answers to dealing with imperfect people.

Uh, private school teachers make less than their public school counterparts...so I'm not sure what your point is about money.  The reason that private schools perform better is competition.  If the teachers don't perform, if the school doesn't deliver on those tuition dollars, guess what...the school goes under.  There's strong incentive f ...


slayer199: silly season: Ok. I'll bite. You $ay that can't think of any rea$on why private $chool$ do well. Gee, that'$ a $tumper alright. Maybe because private schools don't have to take any and all students? No, that can't be it. There may be another reason. I'm sure I'll think of it. I'm forced to guess what you feel makes a private school. I will assume a school that the parents that are sending their kids to, also directly pay the school and have a personal and financial interest in the outcomes. I.e highly involved parents.

An independent board of parents, teachers, and citizens that evaluate if teacher is any good.
Evaluate based on what? Test scores? What kind of testing? Multiple choice? Highly subjective essays? For Kindergarten? 1st? 2nd? Do you really think testing proves anything? Best teaching practices? How would parents or random citizens have any idea whatsoever what best teaching is?

An independent board? What is that? The people in the area that the school covers? Is that your idea of independent? Or are your thinking of something like jury duty of people that don't have any tie to that school? Because everyone knows how much all citizens want to participate in jury duty. I'm sure you would get very similar results in your school pool as in your jury pool.

The people you would end up with would be the same people that aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty or Young Earth Creationists trying to push their views into the public school system. But I may be repeating myself.

/ All this magical thinking that there is somehow a board, a law, a test that gives perfect answers to dealing with imperfect people.

Uh, private school teachers make less than their public school counterparts...so I'm not sure what your point is about money.  The reason that private schools perform better is competition.  If the teachers don't perform, if the school doesn't deliver on those tuition dollars, guess what...the school goes under.  There's strong incentive for the scho ...


Try again....

Sorry, see my comment just before this one. I was thinking Elite Institutions when an undefined "Private School" was mentioned.  Would you agree that those that can afford Elite Institutions can also afford tutors for any less than stellar offspring? Would you agree that Private Schools usually aren't measured against public schools? That who you know is far more important than what you know?

But what is your alternative? Private Schools? For Profit Teaching? Religion Based schools? It isn't enough to say this is bad and demand that someone, somehow fix it. The idea floated earlier that tenure start at 5 years may not be a bad idea.

Yes, the system is abused. But what is your alternative? What unintended consequences can be expected as a result of a proposed alternative?
 
2014-06-11 11:20:07 PM  
The previous question and answer comments by Silly Season were inspired by the Socratic* method of teaching. Hopefully some Farkers were able to more clearly understand what their own position and others position on these questions are to better find creative and useful solutions.

/ Now, determine a method to show what you have learned can be objectively graded?
// *An old, dead Greek guy....
/// And his story really underlines the need for Tenure as opposed to being judged by others.
 
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