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(Daily Mail)   The student who pepper sprayed and tackled the Seattle university shooter putting a end to his rampage has his Target and Crate and Barrel wedding registries completely fulfilled and his honeymoon paid for by grateful strangers on the internet   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 200
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10254 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Jun 2014 at 8:23 PM (19 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-08 01:30:54 AM  

trevzie: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: kerrigand: You first. You as well as I, both no it can't be proven, one way or the other. Or do you have other evidence?

As expected, you fail at logic. One case of conceal/carry stopping a mass shooter disproves the statement.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-c i tizens.html?m=1


You go ahead and sort through that mess and find the case where a mass shooter is stopped by a CC.
But don't bother with Clackamas. Meli "enhanced" his story twice and it's still pure speculation on his part.
 
2014-06-08 01:57:41 AM  

mainsail: Shooter is wearing a "Godsblock Ministries" hoody...wonder how they feel about that...


name many workplace shooters that -aren't- fundies. most of them seem to have a strong religious bent, it's part of the profile.
 
2014-06-08 02:05:35 AM  

kerrigand: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: kerrigand: You first. You as well as I, both no it can't be proven, one way or the other. Or do you have other evidence?

As expected, you fail at logic. One case of conceal/carry stopping a mass shooter disproves the statement.

No, the logic is just fine, all you have to do is prove one case one way or another. You can't, just as well as I can't. Because if a shooter was or wasn't stopped, who was to know it?


you guys can argue about how it cannot be proven one way or the other, but that is a pretty ridiculous position. there is an internet full of data out there, and yes, there have been cases of mass shootings that were either mitigated or ended by civilians, including some of the most famous ones. not many, and the impact of armed civilians having any effect on reducing future shootings is still very debatable, but the cases do exist, and pretending otherwise is simply foolish.
 
2014-06-08 02:09:04 AM  

Ivan the Tolerable: kerrigand: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: kerrigand: You first. You as well as I, both no it can't be proven, one way or the other. Or do you have other evidence?

As expected, you fail at logic. One case of conceal/carry stopping a mass shooter disproves the statement.

No, the logic is just fine, all you have to do is prove one case one way or another. You can't, just as well as I can't. Because if a shooter was or wasn't stopped, who was to know it?

you guys can argue about how it cannot be proven one way or the other, but that is a pretty ridiculous position. there is an internet full of data out there, and yes, there have been cases of mass shootings that were either mitigated or ended by civilians, including some of the most famous ones. not many, and the impact of armed civilians having any effect on reducing future shootings is still very debatable, but the cases do exist, and pretending otherwise is simply foolish.


Sure there are, to deny them are foolish, to disregard them is stupidity.
 
2014-06-08 02:15:22 AM  
One example is all you need.
 
2014-06-08 02:25:47 AM  

kerrigand: Sure there are, to deny them are foolish, to disregard them is stupidity.


And to produce them is apparently impossible.
 
2014-06-08 02:26:32 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: One example is all you need.


One Honest example is what you need. Not, just one example.
 
2014-06-08 02:28:40 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: One example is all you need.


 There are many dozens, all of which can be counted or discounted depending on how you want to parse your language. So, give us, in as much detail as you can, very specific wordings and boundaries of what you would consider a legitimate case.
 I only mention this as I have never seen mental and linguistic gymnastics as convoluted as the ones used by people attempting to 'prove' there have been no mass shootings stopped by civilians. especially by that mother jones article. if you go far enough and add enough asterisks, you can pretty much tailor a description to exclude any given event, and if that description is long and bizarre enough and stretches the definition of 'civilian', 'armed' 'law-abiding', 'mass shooting', and even 'stopped', etc. you may even be able to discount all of them if your willfully obtuse enough.

 so, i ask you, are you actually looking for an example, or are you looking to simply find ways to discount all of them you already know exist? i am genuinely curious.
 
2014-06-08 02:32:06 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: kerrigand: Sure there are, to deny them are foolish, to disregard them is stupidity.

And to produce them is apparently impossible.


And to understand them seems just the same.
 
2014-06-08 02:39:34 AM  
hell, my aunt and uncle were at university of texas years ago when the bell tower shooting happened. multiple civilians were credited by the police with saving lives for shooting back at the tower sniper before police arrived, causing him to limit his target area, and to continually be forced to take cover allowing people to evacuate. it doesn't 'count' because he wasn't finally killed by a civilian though.
near my hometown, a church shooter was stopped by a civilian, but she was an ex-police officer and so apparently doesn't count as civilian. another one didn't count because an ex army reservist apparently doesn't count as civilian either. nor do ex private security guards.
some shootings apparently were not counted as 'stopped' by civilians because there was no proof that the shooter was going to be able to find anyone else to kill, or that it was not known if they might have just wanted to stop right then anyway. others were stopped before the body count of killed exceeded four, so it wasn't a 'mass' shooting yet, so it doesn't count either apparently.

 we can play this game all night, but you know as well as i do there are a lot of shootings that were stopped or mitigated by civilians, whether you like that idea or not.
 
2014-06-08 02:48:50 AM  

MIRV888: GUn threads make baby Jesus cry.


Imma shoot baby Jesus right in his stupid face.
 
2014-06-08 02:51:04 AM  
Penis.
 
2014-06-08 02:56:11 AM  

Ivan the Tolerable: doesn't count


Seems like you already know what the criteria are.
 
2014-06-08 03:05:31 AM  

Pichu0102: mekki: Between this and the deputy at the courthouse, I see this as a tipping point. People are going to start fighting back using any means they can get. I would not be surprised that the next spree killer was taken down by someone using a baseball bat or a hockey stick. People have gone from being fearful of spree killers to tired of them and now they are angry. And, yes, I know the deputy was doing his job but he could have waited for back-up. Instead, he went, "Screw it. You are not getting in."

Anything can be a throwing weapon, especially from behind.

By the by, got a link to the deputy fark thread? I must have missed it.


Better late than never? Anyway, here it is.
 
2014-06-08 03:05:35 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Ivan the Tolerable: doesn't count

Seems like you already know what the criteria are.


I do have to hand it to you. You really know how to show your true colors.
 
2014-06-08 03:07:49 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Ivan the Tolerable: doesn't count

Seems like you already know what the criteria are.


yes, unfortunately i do; whatever criterion rejects observable reality to better fit a particular worldview.
/tell me i am not correct.
 
2014-06-08 03:27:17 AM  
I will leave this here for thought. it is a recent FBI report on active shooter events in the last 12 years.
http://leb.fbi.gov/2014/january/active-shooter-events-from-2000-to-2 01 2


 A short quote from a very telling report; Approximately half of the events (49 percent) ended before law enforcement arrived on scene. This points to the phenomenal speed with which these incidents occur.Of the cases that ended before the police arrived, 67 percent (34) ended with attackers stopping themselves via suicide (29 cases) or by leaving the scene (5 cases). In the other 33 percent (17) of the cases that ended before the police arrived, the potential victims at the scene stopped the shooter themselves. Most commonly they physically subdued the attacker (14 cases), but 3 cases involved people at the scene shooting the perpetrator to end the attack.

That right there gives evidence of several shootings stopped by civilians shooting the perpetrator. feel free to bend the definitions around so they 'don't count'.

I personally find two things interesting;
1)  I find it interesting that while AT LEAST 16% of shootings were actively ended by victims/civilians BEFORE police arrive. I mention 'at least' as several shootings were ended by suicide after the shooter was cornered or was chased off by force, though not actively detained/killed by the victims. This would skew the numbers much higher toward victim-ended shooting events.
2) I find it interesting that of the shootings stopped by civilians, very few were actually by firearm, but by any number of other unspecified non-firearm means. Again, this number is artificially low due to the number of instances where armed victims forced the shooter to retreat and later commit suicide, or until police arrived and terminated the event, but it is still a low number in comparison to non-firearm events.
 (see, i have no axe to grind here. i find facts fascinating to learn from. wearing blinkers pimping a specific irrational agendas seems boring)
 
2014-06-08 03:58:11 AM  

trevzie: If there were 10 concealed carries this shooting would have ended how it did, early.


Or later, with more casualties, as all the armed people scared shiatless shoot at each other. Or in your mind is this like laser tag where the bad guys wear colored uniforms?

Some people with guns might do fine, but on average the public is pretty dumb, and I'm relatively confident that giving dumb, scared people guns isn't a reliable way to reduce the amount of gun injuries.
 
2014-06-08 04:11:44 AM  

profplump: I'm relatively confident that giving dumb, scared people guns isn't a reliable way to reduce the amount of gun injuries.


i might start to agree with you the day they start giving IQ tests to prospective police candidates.
 
2014-06-08 04:45:55 AM  

fluffy2097: mekki: I am waiting for the story where a gunman is taken down by the archery team.

Thanks to zero tolerance, it will never happen. Gun free zones? Also bow free zones. For the children, you see.

/You can watch pro wrestling if you want to see people get hit in the head with a chair.
//If you want your gun free zones, and onerous legislation on legal gun owners, you should have to wait for the cops to come save your ass, since you have abdicated your ability to defend yourself to the police.


I don't usually give a shiat about the discussion but are you really advocating that the only way to defend yourself is with a gun? fark's sake, grow a pair.
 
2014-06-08 05:08:06 AM  

It's Me Bender: Yeah, but if he'd had concealed carry it would have saved us all the expense of a trial and lifetime incarceration for the nutjob.

(concealed carry is probably not an option in Seattle except for government workers and the rich and the criminal underclass)


Washington is a "shall issue" state. Last I checked, city ordinance does not trump state law. And there are truckloads of hunters and veterans in the King County area. King County likes their guns. So do Pierce and Thurston Counties.

/have carried concealed everywhere in Seattle except the VA, the Federal building, and bars
//don't let the 'blue' in national elections fool you--you're almost as likely to get shot robbing a house in Western Washington as you are in Oklahoma or Texas
///WA law only requires both feet be inside the threshold when the cops show up--and a lot of cops out there will tell you that if both feet aren't inside the door, drag the body until they are
 
2014-06-08 05:26:17 AM  

fluffy2097: mekki: I am waiting for the story where a gunman is taken down by the archery team.

Thanks to zero tolerance, it will never happen. Gun free zones? Also bow free zones. For the children, you see.


Doubt it. Bows are seldom used in mass murders, and have been used for hunting since it occurred to someone to tie a string to both ends of a stick--60,000 years, give or take.

Gunpowder is only about 1100 years old, with its first use in firearms dating back only about 700 years. You can thank China for both the invention of gunpowder and the invention of firearms (but you can thank Americans [Richard Gatling, Hiram Maxim, and Isaac Lewis--though the Maxim and Lewis guns were used mainly by Europe rather than the US] for developing firearms that can kill on a grand scale).

Besides, how will they institute the hunger games without bows? :D
 
2014-06-08 05:50:28 AM  

mekki: Between this and the deputy at the courthouse, I see this as a tipping point. People are going to start fighting back using any means they can get. I would not be surprised that the next spree killer was taken down by someone using a baseball bat or a hockey stick. People have gone from being fearful of spree killers to tired of them and now they are angry. And, yes, I know the deputy was doing his job but he could have waited for back-up. Instead, he went, "Screw it. You are not getting in."


These are hardly the first times that an active killer has been stopped by potential victims, putting an early end to their rampages.
 
2014-06-08 06:08:30 AM  

dookdookdook: In other news, who the hell gets married when they're 22? (or ever, for that matter?)


My wife married me when she was 22, and I was 25. We've been together 21 years so far, everything is going great, in fact. But get this: My brother married his wife when she was only 19, and he was 23. They've been together for 27 years, and happier than ever.

Not all "young" marriages are a horrifically bad idea. Just most of them.
 
2014-06-08 06:10:55 AM  

HideAndGoFarkYourself: mekki: Between this and the deputy at the courthouse, I see this as a tipping point. People are going to start fighting back using any means they can get. I would not be surprised that the next spree killer was taken down by someone using a baseball bat or a hockey stick. People have gone from being fearful of spree killers to tired of them and now they are angry. And, yes, I know the deputy was doing his job but he could have waited for back-up. Instead, he went, "Screw it. You are not getting in."

These are hardly the first times that an active killer has been stopped by potential victims, putting an early end to their rampages.


You are right. We're just having mass shootings more frequently now, so these stories of potential victims fighting back are becoming more frequent as well.
 
2014-06-08 06:45:24 AM  

mekki: Between this and the deputy at the courthouse, I see this as a tipping point. People are going to start fighting back using any means they can get.


Um, hate to point this out, but it's not a new thing.  In fact, several shootings have been stopped by people going to their vehicles and retrieving their personal sidearms, and then using them to take down the shooter.  Some involved staff, some involved, (oh, how terrible!) STUDENTS who had guns legally in their vehicles.

/If you trust your kid to a teacher, why wouldn't you trust the teacher with a gun???
//Once checked a daycare's inspection records, and found that their only "gig" was that the gun safe was unlocked.
///2 days later, my kids were there.
 
2014-06-08 07:10:06 AM  

dookdookdook: In other news, who the hell gets married when they're 22? (or ever, for that matter?)


People who regret it by 22.5.
 
2014-06-08 07:11:49 AM  

mekki: fluffy2097: mekki: I am waiting for the story where a gunman is taken down by the archery team.

Thanks to zero tolerance, it will never happen. Gun free zones? Also bow free zones. For the children, you see.

/You can watch pro wrestling if you want to see people get hit in the head with a chair.
//If you want your gun free zones, and onerous legislation on legal gun owners, you should have to wait for the cops to come save your ass, since you have abdicated your ability to defend yourself to the police.

Many high schools and colleges have archery teams. I can see a situation where a spree killer attacks on the day an archery team practice was happening and the team fought back.


Reminds me of this short horror manga I read once.
In an equipment room of a high school gymnasium, the track team was playing a high-stakes version of "the last letter game". Where I say a word, five letters, and you say a word that starts with the letter the word I said ends with, first person to repeat a word loses?

The losing track team girl was sent outside to run for help from the monster that had allready killed their team captain... And the fastest girl on the team... The story ended with a member of the boy's Badminton team putting a lawn-dart-slash-shuttlecock into the monster's skull. Too late, obviously. But still, Pyrrhic victory.
 
2014-06-08 08:14:42 AM  
His Target registry doesn't look like it's been fulfilled at all.
 
2014-06-08 08:18:39 AM  
i.dailymail.co.uk
Seattle Pacific students gathered to pray after the the horrific violence on their small campus Thursday afternoon


Well at least it wasn't a drum circle
 
2014-06-08 08:19:05 AM  
his friends said, with his wedding just a fortnight away

 No they didn't. People in America don't talk that way you stupid twit.
 
2014-06-08 08:21:00 AM  

dookdookdook: In other news, who the hell gets married when they're 22? (or ever, for that matter?)


Lots of people do as the frontal lobe is not fully developed in most people till around the age of 25.  This means they do a lot fo stupid things  when they are young.
 
2014-06-08 08:28:21 AM  

Aigoo: It's Me Bender: Yeah, but if he'd had concealed carry it would have saved us all the expense of a trial and lifetime incarceration for the nutjob.

(concealed carry is probably not an option in Seattle except for government workers and the rich and the criminal underclass)

Washington is a "shall issue" state. Last I checked, city ordinance does not trump state law. And there are truckloads of hunters and veterans in the King County area. King County likes their guns. So do Pierce and Thurston Counties.

/have carried concealed everywhere in Seattle except the VA, the Federal building, and bars
//don't let the 'blue' in national elections fool you--you're almost as likely to get shot robbing a house in Western Washington as you are in Oklahoma or Texas
///WA law only requires both feet be inside the threshold when the cops show up--and a lot of cops out there will tell you that if both feet aren't inside the door, drag the body until they are


Yet you get the majority of these "mass shootings " in more liberal areas like Seattle.  You never hear of them at places like West Texas A&M, Montana Tech or the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology
 
2014-06-08 09:17:02 AM  

hasty ambush: Aigoo: It's Me Bender: Yeah, but if he'd had concealed carry it would have saved us all the expense of a trial and lifetime incarceration for the nutjob.

(concealed carry is probably not an option in Seattle except for government workers and the rich and the criminal underclass)

Washington is a "shall issue" state. Last I checked, city ordinance does not trump state law. And there are truckloads of hunters and veterans in the King County area. King County likes their guns. So do Pierce and Thurston Counties.

/have carried concealed everywhere in Seattle except the VA, the Federal building, and bars
//don't let the 'blue' in national elections fool you--you're almost as likely to get shot robbing a house in Western Washington as you are in Oklahoma or Texas
///WA law only requires both feet be inside the threshold when the cops show up--and a lot of cops out there will tell you that if both feet aren't inside the door, drag the body until they are

Yet you get the majority of these "mass shootings " in more liberal areas like Seattle.  You never hear of them at places like West Texas A&M, Montana Tech or the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology


Yup. NEVER.
 
2014-06-08 09:30:27 AM  

dookdookdook: In other news, who the hell gets married when they're 22? (or ever, for that matter?)


I was 19, wife was 21 (she bought all the booze for a couple of years).
Still married (15 years later).
 
2014-06-08 09:59:54 AM  

Aigoo: fluffy2097: mekki: I am waiting for the story where a gunman is taken down by the archery team.

Thanks to zero tolerance, it will never happen. Gun free zones? Also bow free zones. For the children, you see.

Doubt it. Bows are seldom used in mass murders, and have been used for hunting since it occurred to someone to tie a string to both ends of a stick--60,000 years, give or take.

Gunpowder is only about 1100 years old, with its first use in firearms dating back only about 700 years. You can thank China for both the invention of gunpowder and the invention of firearms (but you can thank Americans [Richard Gatling, Hiram Maxim, and Isaac Lewis--though the Maxim and Lewis guns were used mainly by Europe rather than the US] for developing firearms that can kill on a grand scale).

Besides, how will they institute the hunger games without bows? :D


I don't think you get it.

You cannot bring a bow into a gun free zone.  Gun free zones are WEAPON FREE ZONES.

DOOT DE DOO! NEVERMIND MY COMPOUND BOW THAT'S 3 FEET WIDE AND HAS A 4 FOOT STABILIZER BAR! NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

/See. The answer to all of these problems is always more violence.
//Or the severe intrusion of the government on the private lives of people who've done nothing wrong.
///Murder and Molestation. It's the American way. Hope you brought lube.
 
2014-06-08 10:11:48 AM  

Ivan the Tolerable: profplump: I'm relatively confident that giving dumb, scared people guns isn't a reliable way to reduce the amount of gun injuries.

i might start to agree with you the day they start giving IQ tests to prospective police candidates.


Oh, they do... It's just they use it to kick out the ones who score too high!
 
2014-06-08 11:20:28 AM  

rzrwiresunrise: hasty ambush: Aigoo: It's Me Bender: Yeah, but if he'd had concealed carry it would have saved us all the expense of a trial and lifetime incarceration for the nutjob.

(concealed carry is probably not an option in Seattle except for government workers and the rich and the criminal underclass)

Washington is a "shall issue" state. Last I checked, city ordinance does not trump state law. And there are truckloads of hunters and veterans in the King County area. King County likes their guns. So do Pierce and Thurston Counties.

/have carried concealed everywhere in Seattle except the VA, the Federal building, and bars
//don't let the 'blue' in national elections fool you--you're almost as likely to get shot robbing a house in Western Washington as you are in Oklahoma or Texas
///WA law only requires both feet be inside the threshold when the cops show up--and a lot of cops out there will tell you that if both feet aren't inside the door, drag the body until they are

Yet you get the majority of these "mass shootings " in more liberal areas like Seattle.  You never hear of them at places like West Texas A&M, Montana Tech or the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology

Yup. NEVER.



Hardrockers are too stoned to carry out mass shootings. Or too busy skiing, or playing Warcraft.
 
2014-06-08 11:26:57 AM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: /If you trust your kid to a teacher, why wouldn't you trust the teacher with a gun???


Is this a trick question, or just a really, really stupid one? Dang.

Phew.
 
2014-06-08 11:46:24 AM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: mekki: Between this and the deputy at the courthouse, I see this as a tipping point. People are going to start fighting back using any means they can get.


Um, hate to point this out, but it's not a new thing.  In fact, several shootings have been stopped by people going to their vehicles and retrieving their personal sidearms, and then using them to take down the shooter.  Some involved staff, some involved, (oh, how terrible!) STUDENTS who had guns legally in their vehicles.


not only are school shootings not a new thing, they are generally decreasing in frequency.

/no matter how many times news people tell you school shootings are new, an american thing, or that columbine or sandy hook were the largest school massacres, just think that sandy hook was only in third place and columbine fifth. in the united states. the biggest here was in 1927. go worldwide and only one of those two american shootings even makes the top ten list.

//but, i am sure someone on fark will argue that they only happen here, now, and we need to ban something because of it.
 
2014-06-08 12:01:00 PM  

trevzie: UsikFark: trevzie: Imagine if bystanders had concealed carries instead of pepper spray. It's a rare person who will take pepper spray to a gun fight. It worked out in this case, thankfully.

However, takedowns like this would be more common if people had the tools to do it.

Bullshiat. farking bullshiat. With pepper spray you can lay on the trigger. You can spray down the shooter and a hostage with pepper spray. You can use pepper spray when unsure of your target.

This is why a "good guy with a gun" is a complete trash argument, you're still going to have to get the perp on the ground in a crowded area when you yourself are probably shaking with fear.

I think if someone has a gun shooting people, odds are that there's not a crowd standing around that person. Arguing about possible friendly fire when there's a guy standing there shooting his gun at as many people as he can. That is quite a stretch.

You have to be pretty sure you can close the distance before they rearm, or pull a sidearm to attempt running at a gunman with a can of pepper spray.

You really have to reach to come up with a scenario where it's better that the bystanders don't have guns.


21 feet.

That is the distance from which a person with a bat, knife, or pepper spray can close in and take down an armed attacker before they can draw their firearm or reload. That distance is further in the case of reloading a shotgun.

The only point I can concede for the advantage of concealed carry in this case, is that someone could have saved us the time and money for a trial and incarceration of this mass shooter.
 
2014-06-08 01:07:38 PM  

mekki: fluffy2097: mekki: I am waiting for the story where a gunman is taken down by the archery team.

Thanks to zero tolerance, it will never happen. Gun free zones? Also bow free zones. For the children, you see.

/You can watch pro wrestling if you want to see people get hit in the head with a chair.
//If you want your gun free zones, and onerous legislation on legal gun owners, you should have to wait for the cops to come save your ass, since you have abdicated your ability to defend yourself to the police.

Many high schools and colleges have archery teams. I can see a situation where a spree killer attacks on the day an archery team practice was happening and the team fought back.


A bad part of me wants to see this happen.
 
2014-06-08 01:31:55 PM  
Loreweaver: ...

21 feet.

That is the distance from which a person with a bat, knife, or pepper spray can close in and take down an armed attacker...


disagrees:

www.soundonsight.org

And kudos to him, badass.
 
2014-06-08 02:53:11 PM  

mofa: If everyone had a gun, they'd be shooting at "the shooter."  Who is "the shooter" when all these CCW citizens are shooting?


My guess is: the guy everyone else is shooting at.
 
2014-06-08 03:24:49 PM  
The article mentions about $8,800 raised for their honeymoon. With my extensive practice in GoogleFu, I have found this fund raiser...

(I want to save people... could pay off my house...)

http://www.gofundme.com/9zzc58
 
2014-06-08 05:50:10 PM  

Ivan the Tolerable: Secret Master of All Flatulence: mekki: Between this and the deputy at the courthouse, I see this as a tipping point. People are going to start fighting back using any means they can get.


Um, hate to point this out, but it's not a new thing.  In fact, several shootings have been stopped by people going to their vehicles and retrieving their personal sidearms, and then using them to take down the shooter.  Some involved staff, some involved, (oh, how terrible!) STUDENTS who had guns legally in their vehicles.

not only are school shootings not a new thing, they are generally decreasing in frequency.

/no matter how many times news people tell you school shootings are new, an american thing, or that columbine or sandy hook were the largest school massacres, just think that sandy hook was only in third place and columbine fifth. in the united states. the biggest here was in 1927. go worldwide and only one of those two american shootings even makes the top ten list.

//but, i am sure someone on fark will argue that they only happen here, now, and we need to ban something because of it.


I think you're making a valid point, albeit in a bad way.  You cannot compare situations like Beslan or even Ma'alot with an incident like Columbine.  People can debate the domestic terrorism aspect when it comes to things like Columbine or VaTech, but it's a lose-lose debate.  I think you need to differentiate between an act of terrorism like Beslan and Ma'alot and a school shooting like Columbine, VaTech and Sandy Hook.

Ultimately whatever message the people at Beslan are trying to send, or whatever message Lanza at Sandy Hook were trying is of little consequence to the dead children, but there's a larger political message to the incidents like Beslan.

The bigger concern for me, is that nearly every expert in terrorism has agreed that Beslan was seen as a rehearsal for an attack inside the United States of a similar scale.  Russian Special Forces are as good as they come, especially the Alfa and Vympel units that assaulted the school.  There's no real comparison in United States civilian or federal law enforcement.  The closest would be the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, but their ROE and the laws that govern them are drastically different than what Alfa and Vympel had to deal with at Beslan.

I trained at Quantico a a few months after Beslan with some HRT, NYPD ESU, NYSP SORT and various other federal agencies at a Hostage Rescue course taught by a couple Delta guys.  We got to talking about Beslan and the Delta guys said that the Tier One units in the US have been training for just that scenario for years.  When the whole debate about using military units in a law enforcement role came about, one of the Delta guys smiled slightly and said something along the lines of "we can put on jackets that say FBI just as easily as FBI agents can."
 
2014-06-08 08:33:35 PM  

HideAndGoFarkYourself: I think you're making a valid point, albeit in a bad way.  You cannot compare situations like Beslan or even Ma'alot with an incident like Columbine.


i wasn't . i specifically left out anything that even smelled political or of civil war or terror. just among individual deluded nutjobs, we have plenty of examples. america has neither a new nor unique perspective, as individual loners have been sniping at kids, blowing up schools or roasting classes of small children with homemade flamethrowers in many countries for many years without any political motivation whatsoever.
 
2014-06-08 09:11:16 PM  

blottoman: Loreweaver: ...

21 feet.

That is the distance from which a person with a bat, knife, or pepper spray can close in and take down an armed attacker...

disagrees:

[www.soundonsight.org image 398x269]

And kudos to him, badass.


Wild West showdowns do not apply.

The "21 feet rule" is in reference to an armed attacker who is reloading or is not focused on you. Inside of that distance, an armed attacker doesn't have the reaction time needed to fire off a shot before you can get close enough to use a contact weapon such as a bat, taser, pepper spray, etc.

It is still risky, to be sure, but if you are in a situation like that, where you know that you or your friends/family are going to get shot no matter what, it may be your best option to at least try to take down the gunman.

/ Previous stepfather pulled a gun on my mother, in front of us kids.
// He ended up storming out of the house when we each immediately grabbed the nearest heavy/sharp object
// If he had pulled that trigger, he would have never made it out the door
/// Yes, I was prepared to end that miserable bastard's life that night, gun or no gun
 
2014-06-08 10:15:24 PM  

Loreweaver: blottoman: Loreweaver: ...

21 feet.

That is the distance from which a person with a bat, knife, or pepper spray can close in and take down an armed attacker...

disagrees:

[www.soundonsight.org image 398x269]

And kudos to him, badass.

Wild West showdowns do not apply.

The "21 feet rule" is in reference to an armed attacker who is reloading or is not focused on you. Inside of that distance, an armed attacker doesn't have the reaction time needed to fire off a shot before you can get close enough to use a contact weapon such as a bat, taser, pepper spray, etc.

It is still risky, to be sure, but if you are in a situation like that, where you know that you or your friends/family are going to get shot no matter what, it may be your best option to at least try to take down the gunman.

/ Previous stepfather pulled a gun on my mother, in front of us kids.
// He ended up storming out of the house when we each immediately grabbed the nearest heavy/sharp object
// If he had pulled that trigger, he would have never made it out the door
/// Yes, I was prepared to end that miserable bastard's life that night, gun or no gun


21 feet is the measured distance from which a person with an edged weapon can advance and attack a police officer (that was the parameter of the study) before the officer can unholster and fire.  That's all the study was for, but it's been hijacked over the years for several other things in the self-defense world.
 
2014-06-09 02:14:30 AM  

Aeonite: This seems to be the part of the story that people are skipping:

He was reloading his shotgun when Meis, a volunteer security guard, saw an opening.

This is why "military style rifles" and high-capacity magazines and drums are different from normal hunting weapons. A guy who has to stop after 5 or 6 shots to reload one shell at a time is not as dangerous as a guy who can fire 30 rounds and then slap a new magazine in as he looks for more targets.

Assuming you're not out to mass murder people to get on the news, the only reason you need to carry an AR-15 into Target is because you have a small penis and/or some idea that if the government really WAS after you that you could somehow shoot your way out in a blaze of gunfire without hitting a single innocent bystander.


You are making a lot of assumptions here. You don't know much about shotguns, do you?

1) There are AK-47 style shotguns that use removable magazines. They are not some rare curiosity piece, but were very inexpensive and popular for a few years before Obama fear drove the price through the roof.

2) A pump action shotgun (most likely weapon here) is like having a bottomless magazine (clip for those of you in the media). I can go duck hunting with a pump shotgun like the legendary Remington 870 with a plug in the magazine restricting me to 3 shots, and I can shoot at a flock of 20 ducks without once having to stop to reload.  You can jack a shotshell into the magazine as quick as you can shoot them.  You'd have to be awfully unfamiliar with shotguns to think you had to empty the shotgun before reloading.

3) A semi-automatic shotgun? See #2 above.

4) In fact, I'd say a pump action shotgun is probably the most deadly kind of weapon for close quarters sustained firing.

5) Mace hero is a lucky man. A shooter familiar with a shotgun would have never given him a chance. Good for him, but it is foolish to extrapolate his success any other mass shooting scenario.

2)
 
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