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(Dallas News)   Top JFK Conspiracy Theorist suing over his right to peddle assassination cover-up wares in Dealey Plaza. Fark: Where DOES Dallas Police Sgt. Gorka fit in among Black Dog Man, Umbrella Man & Babushka Lady?   (cityhallblog.dallasnews.com ) divider line
    More: Strange, Dealey Plaza, Dallas Police, JFK, Robert Groden, cover up, Magdalena Gorka, House Select Committee, doxastic logics  
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2479 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2014 at 12:44 AM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-08 12:47:23 AM  
By old city statute, peddlers permits are only issued to legless cripples.
 
2014-06-08 12:49:22 AM  
His concerns were justified: Groden has been cited more than 80 times for selling his wares, and, occasionally, even arrested

He must be in possession of something THEY don't want you to know.
 
2014-06-08 12:56:07 AM  
Sounds like that guy on that cattle ranch he doesnt own.
 
2014-06-08 12:57:25 AM  
It happened exactly as the Warren Commission said.
 
2014-06-08 01:01:12 AM  
Was he selling brain tacos?
 
2014-06-08 01:07:17 AM  
A police department without leaders is like a foot without a big toe. And Sgt. Gorka isn't always gonna be here to be that big toe for us. I think that we owe a big round of applause to our newest, bestest buddy, and big toe... Sgt. Gorka.
 
2014-06-08 01:14:05 AM  
Top JFK Conspiracy Theorist

Is there a ranking of JFK Conspiracy Theorists?
 
2014-06-08 01:16:51 AM  
The "Umbrella Man" came forward and gave a detailed explanation for why he was holding an umbrella. Errol Morris made a very nice short doc about it, which I recommend to anyone who peddles in conspiracy theories of any kind.
 
2014-06-08 01:17:06 AM  
I visited Arlington National Cemetery on the 50th anniversary of his death. Not much media there beside a few photographers. The circus was at Dealy Plaza. The Kennedy family and other respectful mourners were at Arlington, not the crime scene.
 
2014-06-08 01:28:19 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: The "Umbrella Man" came forward and gave a detailed explanation for why he was holding an umbrella. Errol Morris made a very nice short doc about it, which I recommend to anyone who peddles in conspiracy theories of any kind.


Ah yes - the old "this explanation is so pants-on-head retarded, it HAS to be true" logical fallacy.
 
2014-06-08 01:29:43 AM  

Triumph: Ah yes - the old "this explanation is so pants-on-head retarded, it HAS to be true" logical fallacy.


Are you disagreeing with his conclusion?
 
2014-06-08 01:33:52 AM  

Oldiron_79: It happened exactly as the Warren Commission said.


Still crazy after all these years.....
 
2014-06-08 01:40:42 AM  

Arkanaut: Top JFK Conspiracy Theorist

Is there a ranking of JFK Conspiracy Theorists?


Sure. It's like which fertilizer is the best bag of shiat.
 
2014-06-08 01:47:25 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: Triumph: Ah yes - the old "this explanation is so pants-on-head retarded, it HAS to be true" logical fallacy.

Are you disagreeing with his conclusion?


Well, I'm just saying it doesn't prove much and it's not any better explanation than him being the signal man for shooters from various positions. The only thing that's clear from photos is that the guy is standing there and opens and holds the umbrella in a deliberate fashion. If Allen Dulles was orchestrating the Warren Commission, as many believe, as a show to exonerate the CIA from involvement, he'd likely make sure some guy showed up and told some cover story, wouldn't he?

He testified, so it carries some weight, but yes, I'm disagreeing with the conclusion that the explanation is so crazy that it settles the matter.
 
2014-06-08 01:49:24 AM  

Strongbeerrules: Oldiron_79: It happened exactly as the Warren Commission said.

Still crazy after all these years.....


So I am crazy for supporting the official govt. position?

Normally when I'm called crazy it's for rejecting the official govt. position.
 
2014-06-08 01:54:40 AM  

Triumph: I visited Arlington National Cemetery on the 50th anniversary of his death. Not much media there beside a few photographers. The circus was at Dealy Plaza. The Kennedy family and other respectful mourners were at Arlington, not the crime scene.


That's because it's a lot easier to control nonsense on gated Federal property.  IIRC, Jackie was allowed in before the gates were opened to the public so she could pay her respects when she wanted.

Arkanaut: Top JFK Conspiracy Theorist

Is there a ranking of JFK Conspiracy Theorists?


The is/was.  Ranking is thinning out in recent years.  Jean Hill (one of the more famous witnesses to come forward that there was someone shooting from Grassy Knoll) th great-grandmother of a college friend; she died years ago.  She was also crazier than a shiathouse rat, and I man that in the politest way possible.
 
2014-06-08 01:55:46 AM  

Triumph: He testified, so it carries some weight, but yes, I'm disagreeing with the conclusion that the explanation is so crazy that it settles the matter.


It seemed clear to me that he was being facetious with that "so crazy it has to be true" statement. The main point was that the guy came forward in a public hearing, identified who he was, and gave an explanation for what he was doing that day. For most sane people, that is enough.

The fact that the "Umbrella Man" stood in such a conspicuous manner, right there next to the street, standing tall with his feet planted together and holding the umbrella excessively high, clearly showed that he WANTED to be seen. That is in line with someone making a political protest as JFK's car goes by.
 
2014-06-08 02:02:19 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: That's because it's a lot easier to control nonsense on gated Federal property.  IIRC, Jackie was allowed in before the gates were opened to the public so she could pay her respects when she wanted.


Jackie died 20 years ago. I saw some members of the family arrive in the afternoon, but I was way up on the hill behind the flame and walked away so as not to help attract a crowd of gawkers.
 
2014-06-08 02:03:29 AM  

Oldiron_79: Strongbeerrules: Oldiron_79: It happened exactly as the Warren Commission said.

Still crazy after all these years.....

So I am crazy for supporting the official govt. position?

Normally when I'm called crazy it's for rejecting the official govt. position.

i was referring to the Warren Commission.

 
2014-06-08 02:04:00 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: Triumph: He testified, so it carries some weight, but yes, I'm disagreeing with the conclusion that the explanation is so crazy that it settles the matter.

It seemed clear to me that he was being facetious with that "so crazy it has to be true" statement. The main point was that the guy came forward in a public hearing, identified who he was, and gave an explanation for what he was doing that day. For most sane people, that is enough.

The fact that the "Umbrella Man" stood in such a conspicuous manner, right there next to the street, standing tall with his feet planted together and holding the umbrella excessively high, clearly showed that he WANTED to be seen. That is in line with someone making a political protest as JFK's car goes by.


I'll add that the wider point of that short doc film, and the main reason that I share it with people so often, is that it highlights the single biggest failing of most conspiracy theories: When there is something that can't be easily explained in connection to a major crime, our minds automatically go to the most sinister explanation, when in fact there are more perfectly harmless explanations than we could ever possibly imagine. I never would have guessed that a guy holding an umbrella in broad daylight as the POTUS drove by was making a political protest, but now that I've heard the official explanation and review the photographic evidence again, OF COURSE that's what he was doing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, etc.
 
2014-06-08 02:04:00 AM  

Triumph: Dwight_Yeast: That's because it's a lot easier to control nonsense on gated Federal property.  IIRC, Jackie was allowed in before the gates were opened to the public so she could pay her respects when she wanted.

Jackie died 20 years ago. I saw some members of the family arrive in the afternoon, but I was way up on the hill behind the flame and walked away so as not to help attract a crowd of gawkers.


I'm actually old enough to remember when Jackie was still alive. ;)
 
2014-06-08 02:10:22 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: For most sane people, that is enough.


which would explain why it isn't enough for him.
 
2014-06-08 02:10:50 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: The fact that the "Umbrella Man" stood in such a conspicuous manner, right there next to the street, standing tall with his feet planted together and holding the umbrella excessively high, clearly showed that he WANTED to be seen. That is in line with someone making a political protest as JFK's car goes by.


Maybe. Of course, it's a protest that JFK would never in a million years have understood. He'd be like, "What's up with this guy and the umbrella?"

On the other hand, as a way to time multiple teams of shooters, it's also an excellent synchronization method. Just raise the umbrella up high at the key moment and the spotters tell the snipers to shoot.
 
2014-06-08 02:17:16 AM  

Triumph: , it's a protest that JFK would never in a million years have understood.


Black umbrellas had been used in connection with protests against the President before; at the time of the construction of the Berlin Wall, a group of schoolchildren from Bonn sent the White House an umbrella labeled Chamberlain.[9]

 
2014-06-08 02:18:32 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: our minds automatically go to the most sinister explanation


I completely disagree with that. In fact, as the SS loaded Jews onto trains at gunpoint, I bet there were plenty of Germans in total denial, thinking "they'll be okay."

When the first plane hit WTC, everybody was like, "What a dumb pilot!"
 
2014-06-08 02:19:04 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: I'll add that the wider point of that short doc film, and the main reason that I share it with people so often, is that it highlights the single biggest failing of most conspiracy theories: When there is something that can't be easily explained in connection to a major crime, our minds automatically go to the most sinister explanation, when in fact there are more perfectly harmless explanations than we could ever possibly imagine. I never would have guessed that a guy holding an umbrella in broad daylight as the POTUS drove by was making a political protest, but now that I've heard the official explanation and review the photographic evidence again, OF COURSE that's what he was doing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, etc.


That would be Errol Morris' point, given that he's interested in conspiracy theories.

There's something about the human brain that doesn't want to accept that the airplane crashed, killing everyone on board, because of a $5 part failing; we need it to b a surface to air missile to justify the size of the tragedy.

It's also, of course, why we invented gods.
 
2014-06-08 02:20:12 AM  

Triumph: On the other hand, as a way to time multiple teams of shooters, it's also an excellent synchronization method. Just raise the umbrella up high at the key moment and the spotters tell the snipers to shoot.


Oh, it could be explained as a dozen other salacious, dastardly, very not good things. But there is zero evidence for any of that. Which is yet another major issue that I take with most conspiracy theories: It COULD happen this way, therefore it DID happen this way ...or at the very least my theory, which has ZERO evidence, should cause everyone to question the official story, for which there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence. In other words, WE'RE JUST ASKING QUESTIONS.
 
2014-06-08 02:24:24 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Triumph: Dwight_Yeast: That's because it's a lot easier to control nonsense on gated Federal property.  IIRC, Jackie was allowed in before the gates were opened to the public so she could pay her respects when she wanted.

Jackie died 20 years ago. I saw some members of the family arrive in the afternoon, but I was way up on the hill behind the flame and walked away so as not to help attract a crowd of gawkers.

I'm actually old enough to remember when Jackie was still alive. ;)


You don't have to be very old to remember Jackie being alive. It was like what mid 90s when she passed.
 
2014-06-08 02:29:29 AM  

Triumph: I completely disagree with that. In fact, as the SS loaded Jews onto trains at gunpoint, I bet there were plenty of Germans in total denial, thinking "they'll be okay."

When the first plane hit WTC, everybody was like, "What a dumb pilot!"


The plane flying into the first tower on 911 misses the point completely because most plane crashes are accidents - at that point, it was easily explainable as something accidental. Where the crazy got turned up to 11, and where the point myself and Errol Morris have made comes into play, is AFTER everyone realized it was a terrorist attack. At that point, the the craziest shiat you will ever hear in your life came out of every corner of the Internet as every odd "coincidence" on that day was hyper-analyzed by a bunch of armchair experts.

The key here is where the mind goes when things aren't easily explainable: A plane crashing into a building is easily explained. But then a building nearby that wasn't hit collapses, and suddenly it's "CONSPIRACY!!!!"
 
2014-06-08 02:34:59 AM  

Oldiron_79: Dwight_Yeast: Triumph: Dwight_Yeast: That's because it's a lot easier to control nonsense on gated Federal property.  IIRC, Jackie was allowed in before the gates were opened to the public so she could pay her respects when she wanted.

Jackie died 20 years ago. I saw some members of the family arrive in the afternoon, but I was way up on the hill behind the flame and walked away so as not to help attract a crowd of gawkers.

I'm actually old enough to remember when Jackie was still alive. ;)

You don't have to be very old to remember Jackie being alive. It was like what mid 90s when she passed.


Just checked 1994. I'm glad she passed a few years before John Jr rather than after. I wouldn't wish a child passing before the parent on anyone.
 
2014-06-08 02:43:03 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: The key here is where the mind goes when things aren't easily explainable: A plane crashing into a building is easily explained. But then a building nearby that wasn't hit collapses, and suddenly it's "CONSPIRACY!!!!"


Well, with a day the story on the news was that it was a big CONSPIRACY involving guys with boxcutters. Conspiracies are fairly common.
 
2014-06-08 02:43:14 AM  
Babushka Lady?

i.imgur.com
/Saw it all.
 
2014-06-08 02:46:30 AM  

Triumph: Well, with a day the story on the news was that it was a big CONSPIRACY involving guys with boxcutters.


That's because an eye-witness on Flight 77 said the guys were using box cutters. That wasn't wild speculation like everything you've said about the umbrella man.
 
2014-06-08 02:53:00 AM  

Triumph: Well, with a day the story on the news was that it was a big CONSPIRACY involving guys with boxcutters. Conspiracies are fairly common.


Actually, given how many successful hijackings we've had by teams of hijackers in the last thirty years, conspiracies of that sort are quite rare.  And even back in the heyday of highjackings it was usually two guys with a gun demanding to take the plane to Cuba.
 
2014-06-08 02:53:04 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: Triumph: Well, with a day the story on the news was that it was a big CONSPIRACY involving guys with boxcutters.

That's because an eye-witness on Flight 77 said the guys were using box cutters. That wasn't wild speculation like everything you've said about the umbrella man.


And multiple witnesses on different planes were stating that there were multiple attackers, which by definition makes it a "conspiracy." Again, not a leap in logic.
 
2014-06-08 02:56:00 AM  
The cops are after him? This conspiracy goes ALL THE WAY TO THE LOWER-MIDDLE.
 
2014-06-08 02:58:34 AM  

Chinchillazilla: The cops are after him? This conspiracy goes ALL THE WAY TO THE LOWER-MIDDLE.


Yeah, but you just know the UPPER-MIDDLE are in on it!!!
 
2014-06-08 03:01:42 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: Triumph: Well, with a day the story on the news was that it was a big CONSPIRACY involving guys with boxcutters.

That's because an eye-witness on Flight 77 said the guys were using box cutters. That wasn't wild speculation like everything you've said about the umbrella man.


I make no hard claims about umbrella man, I just think it's not completely settled. I'm off to bed, but I'll leave you with this. It was written by RFK Jr. on the 50th anniversary. I think he's very carefully and artfully telling readers why he thinks his uncle was killed - not how, but why, and to some extent, who. It's a tricky piece of writing, with a lot underneath what he's pointing out, but well worth pondering:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of- pe ace-20131120
 
2014-06-08 03:09:33 AM  

Triumph: I make no hard claims about umbrella man


I shouldn't have implied they were YOUR claims, just that they are based on wild speculation by people that were the modern day equivalent of concern trolls.

On JFK, I tend to believe that a lot of people were simultaneously out to kill him for multiple reasons - like James Ellroy's mostly fiction book American Tabloid, it was almost a race between various groups to see who could get him first. But in the end, Oswald the lone nutter beat them all out. That is the theory that is supported by the majority of the hard evidence.
 
2014-06-08 03:11:43 AM  

Triumph: Well, with a day the story on the news was that it was a big CONSPIRACY involving guys with boxcutters. Conspiracies are fairly common.


conspiracy theories that turn out to be correct are far from common.
 
2014-06-08 03:12:36 AM  

Badgers: Babushka Lady?


Ya ya
 
2014-06-08 03:14:40 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: On JFK, I tend to believe that a lot of people were simultaneously out to kill him for multiple reasons - like James Ellroy's mostly fiction book American Tabloid, it was almost a race between various groups to see who could get him first. But in the end, Oswald the lone nutter beat them all out. That is the theory that is supported by the majority of the hard evidence.


spatula-city.org
 
2014-06-08 03:15:58 AM  

LewDux: Badgers: Babushka Lady?

Ya ya


Ya Ya's.

img.photobucket.com
 
2014-06-08 03:28:11 AM  
No..."Umbrella Man" wasn't doing anything particularly noteworthy. But in the aftermath of ANY unusual event--a presidential assassination, a plane flying into a skyscraper, a soldier walking off his post--anything and everything that happened prior to the event that was done by the actors will be examined minutely, and ordinary, random occurrences will take on incredible weight, fraught with meaning, which, had nothing happened, they would have been completely ignored.

Consider that on any given day, as President Obama's cars drive through Washington DC, any number of people raise umbrellas, don head scarves, fold newspapers, etc., and nobody considers this noteworthy because he gets from point A to point B and doesn't die or become excessively deformed. But if someone was to take a shot at him, suddenly the umbrella-raisers, paper-folders and scarf-donners would become people of interest.

So with Kennedy's assassination, the quintessential "conspiracy", people  have gone over the limited amount of data with a fine-toothed comb looking for ANYTHING that could be unusual. Why look! here's a man raising an umbrella--MEANING! Here's a woman looking away from the motorcade--MEANING! Here's a bee landing on a daisy--MEANING! Except not really. Only because they happened at the same time as a significant event. But if you're of the mindset that "more happened" that day than a random guy taking a shot at the President (or possibly Magneto diverting the bullet because Kennedy was a mutant) then all those things become MEANINGFUL.
 
2014-06-08 03:29:37 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Triumph: Well, with a day the story on the news was that it was a big CONSPIRACY involving guys with boxcutters. Conspiracies are fairly common.

Actually, given how many successful hijackings we've had by teams of hijackers in the last thirty years, conspiracies of that sort are quite rare.  And even back in the heyday of highjackings it was usually two guys with a gun demanding to take the plane to Cuba.


Actually a quick scan of hijackings from the 70s reveals quite a number of group (more than two people) events.
 
2014-06-08 03:31:38 AM  

Gyrfalcon: No..."Umbrella Man" wasn't doing anything particularly noteworthy. But in the aftermath of ANY unusual event--a presidential assassination, a plane flying into a skyscraper, a soldier walking off his post--anything and everything that happened prior to the event that was done by the actors will be examined minutely, and ordinary, random occurrences will take on incredible weight, fraught with meaning, which, had nothing happened, they would have been completely ignored.

Consider that on any given day, as President Obama's cars drive through Washington DC, any number of people raise umbrellas, don head scarves, fold newspapers, etc., and nobody considers this noteworthy because he gets from point A to point B and doesn't die or become excessively deformed. But if someone was to take a shot at him, suddenly the umbrella-raisers, paper-folders and scarf-donners would become people of interest.

So with Kennedy's assassination, the quintessential "conspiracy", people  have gone over the limited amount of data with a fine-toothed comb looking for ANYTHING that could be unusual. Why look! here's a man raising an umbrella--MEANING! Here's a woman looking away from the motorcade--MEANING! Here's a bee landing on a daisy--MEANING! Except not really. Only because they happened at the same time as a significant event. But if you're of the mindset that "more happened" that day than a random guy taking a shot at the President (or possibly Magneto diverting the bullet because Kennedy was a mutant) then all those things become MEANINGFUL.


Confirmation bias.
 
2014-06-08 03:40:00 AM  

Gyrfalcon: But if you're of the mindset that "more happened" that day than a random guy taking a shot at the President (or possibly Magneto diverting the bullet because Kennedy was a mutant) then all those things become MEANINGFUL.


Wait, Magneto? I thought The Comedian killed JFK.

img.fark.net
 
2014-06-08 03:50:38 AM  
So I'm guessing that my idea to sell JFK Bloody Bobblehead dolls would be inappropriate for that venue?
 
2014-06-08 04:10:04 AM  

thetrenchcoat: Gyrfalcon: But if you're of the mindset that "more happened" that day than a random guy taking a shot at the President (or possibly Magneto diverting the bullet because Kennedy was a mutant) then all those things become MEANINGFUL.

Wait, Magneto? I thought The Comedian killed JFK.


Don't be silly future disgraced JFK was the badge man on the grassy knoll.
 
2014-06-08 04:18:23 AM  
The problem with conspiracy theory nuts is that they obsess with trying to prove multiple gunmen as their "proof" of conspiracy. This is a failure. To me, the proof of "conspiracy" is that there is no possible way some so called "pro Marxist defector" could have re-entered this country and somehow placed himself in a building that just so happened to overlook a presidential motorcade just a few weeks in advance. Dallas was a huge city in the early 60s. No way in Hell Oswald was just an "opportunist" who happened to be in the right spot.


....just like how no way in Hell Ruby just happened to make it into that secured garage.....etc.....

Oswald very well may have been a "lone gunman".....but that doesn't mean he acted alone.

somebody put him in that building and somebody had him silenced immediately afterward.

Conspiracy.
 
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