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(Mother Jones)   Does the phrase "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" apply to the death penalty?   (motherjones.com) divider line 60
    More: Interesting, death penalty, Ohio Supreme Court, electric chair, cruel and unusual punishment, phrases, Hippocratic Oath, Clayton Lockett, lethal injection  
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954 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Jun 2014 at 12:29 PM (7 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-06 11:39:06 AM
The main case law (alluded to in TFA) is Louisiana ex rel. Francis v. Resweber; I don't see good odds on that getting overturned by the current Supreme Court.
 
2014-06-06 12:04:57 PM
Wouldn't the case then be that he should be freed?  I mean, if you're arguing that he was executed as prescribed by law, doesn't that mean he's paid his price?
 
2014-06-06 12:33:42 PM

nekom: Wouldn't the case then be that he should be freed?  I mean, if you're arguing that he was executed as prescribed by law, doesn't that mean he's paid his price?


The old rule from when executions were less reliable was that 3 failures was a sign god needed them to live for some reason.
 
2014-06-06 12:34:01 PM
Aww, he cried from the emotional trauma.

I wonder if the 14 year old child he raped and murdered cried from her emotional trauma?
 
2014-06-06 12:34:12 PM
Screw the IV.  A bullet to the head works quite effectively.   However a quick death is too good for that scumbag.
 
2014-06-06 12:35:29 PM

Mr. Eugenides: Aww, he cried from the emotional trauma.

I wonder if the 14 year old child he raped and murdered cried from her emotional trauma?


Come on now.  With the rampant liberalism going on today don't you know we have to think about how the perpetrator
 feels and screw the victim.
 
2014-06-06 12:35:58 PM
img4.wikia.nocookie.net

"No."
 
2014-06-06 12:38:42 PM
FTA:  Broom's case is a good reminder that the drugs are only part of the problem. A bigger issue is the
the incompetence of the people overseeing the procedure.


Prison workers aren't the brightest pennies in the dish?
 
2014-06-06 12:40:45 PM

nekom: Wouldn't the case then be that he should be freed?  I mean, if you're arguing that he was executed as prescribed by law, doesn't that mean he's paid his price?


From what I read, he was never executed, since they could not get the needle inserted. It would be analogous to not being able to get the noose over someone's head at a hanging; I severely doubt anyone would say he was legally dead in that scenario, so I doubt a judge would accept it in this one. Not to mention, if not having one's veins hit counted as legally dead, I have family memebers who have been zombies for decades.
 
2014-06-06 12:42:05 PM

Muta: FTA:  Broom's case is a good reminder that the drugs are only part of the problem. A bigger issue is the
the incompetence of the people overseeing the procedure.

Prison workers aren't the brightest pennies in the dish?


It's simple to request an ER doctor be present with a cut-down tray.    Scalpel to open up the flesh, and presto, there are your arteries and veins!  Take your pick and see ya around Mr. Rapist.
 
2014-06-06 12:59:36 PM
Get back on that horse!
 
2014-06-06 01:00:39 PM
"Executing people is harder than it sounds."

No, the absurd BS contortions you idiots go through to execute people may be, but I assure you that the valve on a cylinder of inert gas is quite easy to use. But oh, a breathing mask and a tank of shield gas from the welding store would be too quick, quiet and efficient wouldn't it? Doesn't exactly satisfy one's revenge-lust if the dirtbag takes three breaths and then quietly passes out, having never known what just hit him.

That being said, I do in principle support a death penalty - There are some people who are absolutely incapable of coexisting with society, or whose deeds are unforgiveable: For our sake and frankly theirs, better that they go to sleep and never wake up. In practice, I wouldn't accept a standard of proof short of "caught red-handed committing a spectacularly heinous act" or "beyond any possible shadow of a doubt" because for the state to execute innocent people is absolutely unacceptable.
 
2014-06-06 01:13:24 PM

twat_waffle: [img4.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x478]

"No."


img2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-06-06 01:26:55 PM
The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.
 
2014-06-06 01:27:36 PM
does not belong

*like anyone's reading this
 
2014-06-06 01:30:33 PM

whidbey: The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.


Speaking of mixed messages...

Oh. Carry on then.
 
2014-06-06 01:31:09 PM

whidbey: The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.


You mean of course that you aren't willing to debate about it.
 
2014-06-06 01:36:11 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.

You mean of course that you aren't willing to debate about it.


There's a debate. It's just really really really really really easy to win
 
2014-06-06 01:36:43 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.

You mean of course that you aren't willing to debate about it.


There isn't any "debate." Any statement of condemnation is met with childish emotional responses like "you'd feel differently if one of your loved ones had been killed" and a validation of the disgusting feeling of "closure" that somehow justifies killing killers.

It's disgusting. We should be so far past this shiat in the 21st century. People should be ashamed for wanting to continue it.
 
2014-06-06 01:38:57 PM

mistrmind: Muta: FTA:  Broom's case is a good reminder that the drugs are only part of the problem. A bigger issue is the
the incompetence of the people overseeing the procedure.

Prison workers aren't the brightest pennies in the dish?

It's simple to request an ER doctor be present with a cut-down tray.    Scalpel to open up the flesh, and presto, there are your arteries and veins!  Take your pick and see ya around Mr. Rapist.


Not necessary, just administer the drugs IO instead of IV. Bones don't collapse from drug use and you don't need to be a physician to administer an IO line.
 
2014-06-06 01:45:05 PM

CPennypacker: There's a debate. It's just really really really really really easy to win


whidbey: There isn't any "debate." Any statement of condemnation is met with childish emotional responses like "you'd feel differently if one of your loved ones had been killed" and a validation of the disgusting feeling of "closure" that somehow justifies killing killers.It's disgusting. We should be so far past this shiat in the 21st century. People should be ashamed for wanting to continue it.


See, declaring the people on the other side to be childish and emotional isn't actually engaging in a debate, it's Ad Hominem.

Then, appealing to emotion; "should be ashamed" is equally invalid.

Which is to say, you may have a valid point, but you certainly aren't making it here.
 
2014-06-06 01:47:24 PM
What ad hominem did I engage in by saying the debate was easy to win?
 
2014-06-06 01:52:13 PM

erik-k: "Executing people is harder than it sounds."

No, the absurd BS contortions you idiots go through to execute people may be, but I assure you that the valve on a cylinder of inert gas is quite easy to use. But oh, a breathing mask and a tank of shield gas from the welding store would be too quick, quiet and efficient wouldn't it? Doesn't exactly satisfy one's revenge-lust if the dirtbag takes three breaths and then quietly passes out, having never known what just hit him.


I don't support the death penalty, but I specifically oppose lethal injection for a few reasons.  First of all, it's masquerading as a medical procedure.  Second of all, it is absolutely NOT because the AMA opinion basically states that no physician can so much as pronounce death, so you have a bunch of laughin' jokin' numbnuts with no business putting an IV in doing it.  It's no wonder there are so many cock ups.  And finally what's the deal with these ridiculous drug cocktails?  Go into your local PD evidence locker, get some street heroin and give them a lethal dose.  Drift off to sleep nice and easy, what could be more humane?
 
2014-06-06 02:00:10 PM

mistrmind: Muta: FTA:  Broom's case is a good reminder that the drugs are only part of the problem. A bigger issue is the
the incompetence of the people overseeing the procedure.

Prison workers aren't the brightest pennies in the dish?

It's simple to request an ER doctor be present with a cut-down tray.    Scalpel to open up the flesh, and presto, there are your arteries and veins!  Take your pick and see ya around Mr. Rapist.


It isn't that simple apparently.

FTA:  Doctors are ethically prohibited from participating because helping kill someone violates their Hippocratic oath, so those MDs who do take part often aren't at the top of their fields. The most famous example of this problem is Dr. Alan Doerhoff, the dyslexic surgeon who oversaw 54 executions in Missouri, despite the fact that he'd been subject to at least 20 malpractice suits and was banned from working in two different hospitals. Others involved in executions often have little or no medical training.

BTW -- having dyslexia myself, I felt it was unnecessary to include that nugget of information about the surgeon.  He may be a menace but his incompetence is unrelated to his dyslexia.
 
2014-06-06 02:02:05 PM

Mr. Eugenides: Which is to say, you may have a valid point, but you certainly aren't making it here.


I don't care. This is not a debate. This topic is a bunch of people making justification to continue an outdated, illogical barbaric practice.
 
2014-06-06 02:05:51 PM

Mr. Eugenides: CPennypacker: There's a debate. It's just really really really really really easy to win

whidbey: There isn't any "debate." Any statement of condemnation is met with childish emotional responses like "you'd feel differently if one of your loved ones had been killed" and a validation of the disgusting feeling of "closure" that somehow justifies killing killers.It's disgusting. We should be so far past this shiat in the 21st century. People should be ashamed for wanting to continue it.

See, declaring the people on the other side to be childish and emotional isn't actually engaging in a debate, it's Ad Hominem.

Then, appealing to emotion; "should be ashamed" is equally invalid.

Which is to say, you may have a valid point, but you certainly aren't making it here.


Good point.

Capital punishment results in innocent people being killed.  That alone should be reason enough for a sane person to want to abolish the practice.
 
2014-06-06 02:06:14 PM

Muta: mistrmind: Muta: FTA:  Broom's case is a good reminder that the drugs are only part of the problem. A bigger issue is the
the incompetence of the people overseeing the procedure.

Prison workers aren't the brightest pennies in the dish?

It's simple to request an ER doctor be present with a cut-down tray.    Scalpel to open up the flesh, and presto, there are your arteries and veins!  Take your pick and see ya around Mr. Rapist.

It isn't that simple apparently.

FTA:  Doctors are ethically prohibited from participating because helping kill someone violates their Hippocratic oath, so those MDs who do take part often aren't at the top of their fields. The most famous example of this problem is Dr. Alan Doerhoff, the dyslexic surgeon who oversaw 54 executions in Missouri, despite the fact that he'd been subject to at least 20 malpractice suits and was banned from working in two different hospitals. Others involved in executions often have little or no medical training.

BTW -- having dyslexia myself, I felt it was unnecessary to include that nugget of information about the surgeon.  He may be a menace but his incompetence is unrelated to his dyslexia.


Misreading dosages could be construed as incompetence related to his dyslexia.

/don't have dyslexia
 
2014-06-06 02:08:41 PM

whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.

You mean of course that you aren't willing to debate about it.

There isn't any "debate." Any statement of condemnation is met with childish emotional responses like "you'd feel differently if one of your loved ones had been killed" and a validation of the disgusting feeling of "closure" that somehow justifies killing killers.

It's disgusting. We should be so far past this shiat in the 21st century. People should be ashamed for wanting to continue it.


The death penalty has a 100% guarantee against recidivism.
 
2014-06-06 02:10:45 PM

whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: Which is to say, you may have a valid point, but you certainly aren't making it here.

I don't care. This is not a debate. This topic is a bunch of people making justification to continue an outdated, illogical barbaric practice.


Why won't you engage in an open, honest debate about whether we should chemically castrate rapists!?  All you do is call people who advocate for female genital mutilation "barbaric" and then you expect us to take you seriously?  I mean, we're here discussing the merits of cutting thieves' hands off as a deterrent, and all you're bringing to the table are accusations like "you're backwards and medieval" and "that kind of thinking doesn't belong in a civilized society."

It's like you can't even be honest about this debate.  Do you even have a point?

/I know we don't always see eye to eye, particularly when it comes to your methods
//But god damn it if this is an issue I feel we should all universally agree on.
 
2014-06-06 02:11:11 PM

Saiga410: whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.

You mean of course that you aren't willing to debate about it.

There isn't any "debate." Any statement of condemnation is met with childish emotional responses like "you'd feel differently if one of your loved ones had been killed" and a validation of the disgusting feeling of "closure" that somehow justifies killing killers.

It's disgusting. We should be so far past this shiat in the 21st century. People should be ashamed for wanting to continue it.

The death penalty has a 100% guarantee against recidivism.


So does genocide.
 
2014-06-06 02:13:14 PM

BeesNuts: Why won't you engage in an open, honest debate about whether we should chemically castrate rapists!?


Oh let's switch the topic to something else.

That'll show me.

It's like you can't even be honest about this debate. Do you even have a point?.

I did. I made it. Up there ^. The point I made is that there isn't a debate over this. The US has to pull its collective head out of its ass regarding capital punishment and abolish it.
 
2014-06-06 02:14:42 PM

whidbey: BeesNuts: Why won't you engage in an open, honest debate about whether we should chemically castrate rapists!?

Oh let's switch the topic to something else.

That'll show me.

It's like you can't even be honest about this debate. Do you even have a point?.

I did. I made it. Up there ^. The point I made is that there isn't a debate over this. The US has to pull its collective head out of its ass regarding capital punishment and abolish it.


I was worried you'd be too fired up to see I was on your side, satirizing the people you were talking to.

Read the whole thing over.
 
2014-06-06 02:16:13 PM

whidbey: Saiga410: whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: The death penalty is stupid, barbaric and does belong in a civilized society. At the very least, it sends a mixed message. We need to get rid of it. There really isn't a debate about this.

You mean of course that you aren't willing to debate about it.

There isn't any "debate." Any statement of condemnation is met with childish emotional responses like "you'd feel differently if one of your loved ones had been killed" and a validation of the disgusting feeling of "closure" that somehow justifies killing killers.

It's disgusting. We should be so far past this shiat in the 21st century. People should be ashamed for wanting to continue it.

The death penalty has a 100% guarantee against recidivism.

So does genocide.


Yes and Hitler also liked to drink beer.
 
2014-06-06 02:16:30 PM

BeesNuts: Read the whole thing over.


You know, if you agree with me, just "agree" next time, k?
 
2014-06-06 02:20:58 PM

whidbey: BeesNuts: Read the whole thing over.

You know, if you agree with me, just "agree" next time, k?


Where's the fun in that?

Our main disagreement comes from my belief that your "style" isn't helpful to the causes you (and I) support.  I don't like it when I think people are damaging the credibility of my positions, regardless of their personal stance on the issue, and I'll tell you as much if I see you doing it.

But 90% of the time?  I'm right there with you.  I just don't think fighting vociferously for every cause as if they are equal does us any favors.

/This fight though?
//This fight has my full attention.
 
2014-06-06 02:21:15 PM

Mr. Eugenides: Aww, he cried from the emotional trauma.

I wonder if the 14 year old child he raped and murdered cried from her emotional trauma?


Your post was so edgy that I shaved with it.
 
2014-06-06 02:22:08 PM

Muta: Capital punishment results in innocent people being killed


Who, recently?

whidbey: outdated, illogical barbaric practice


I take it that you wouldn't have sentenced McVeigh to death.  Or Breivik.
 
2014-06-06 02:22:59 PM

Mr. Eugenides: Aww, he cried from the emotional trauma.

I wonder if the 14 year old child he raped and murdered cried from her emotional trauma?


Ultimately, I am against the death penalty. The possibility of even one person being executed is intolerable, and we know that it has happened and will continue to happen.

Having said that, no tears shed for this piece of shiat.

/to be fair, there is a 1 in 2.3 million chance he is innocent.
 
2014-06-06 02:23:17 PM

BeesNuts: Our main disagreement comes from my belief that your "style" isn't helpful to the causes you (and I) support.


I don't care. Sometimes people get it, many times they don't. Sometimes the truth hurts, sometimes it makes people rage, sometimes it makes me look like an asshole.

Welcometofark.jpg
 
2014-06-06 02:25:19 PM

tirob: I take it that you wouldn't have sentenced McVeigh to death.  Or Breivik.


I wouldn'tve.  And neither would the rest of the Western world, which hasn't taken part in state revenge-murder for some time.
 
2014-06-06 02:25:57 PM

tirob: I take it that you wouldn't have sentenced McVeigh to death.  Or Breivik.


Nobody. That's what prisons are supposed to be for--to keep dangerous people from causing harm to the public.

Yes, I know they've turned into a private hellhole full of drug addicts. That's part of the problem.
 
2014-06-06 02:30:32 PM

whidbey: BeesNuts: Our main disagreement comes from my belief that your "style" isn't helpful to the causes you (and I) support.

I don't care. Sometimes people get it, many times they don't. Sometimes the truth hurts, sometimes it makes people rage, sometimes it makes me look like an asshole.

Welcometofark.jpg


I know you don't care.  This is what I've tried to address with you in the past.

Debate is communication.  If you don't care how your communication is being received, you're not actually communicating, and you're not actually advancing the debate.  You *have* to care how people receive your message, or else it's hard to believe you care about the message itself.

If I thought you were younger, I'd pass it off.  But I know you're trying to fight the good fight out here, and it's a shame to see so much ammo wasted.

That's all.

You have to want people to *want* to agree with you, or they'll disagree with *you*, whether they like your point or not.

/friendly advice
 
2014-06-06 02:30:53 PM
Still, sorry I harshed your mellow BeesNuts. A bit hangover foggy.
 
2014-06-06 02:32:46 PM

BeesNuts: Debate is communication.


That might be. But for me, this is a topic that we've argued enough, like abortion or climate change. The facts are settled, and yet people still grasp for the obsolete mindset.
 
2014-06-06 02:39:39 PM

whidbey: Still, sorry I harshed your mellow BeesNuts. A bit hangover foggy.


Yeah, I came at you the other night over it too, realized you were PUI and dropped it, lol.

Agreed that many of these topics are worn out.  But many, MANY people believe in Capital Punishment because they haven't actually thought about it at all.  ITT?  We've all hashed it out.  But not everyone who reads these threads posts in them.  I try to remember to talk to those folks too when replying to a post.

/YMMV
//why do I have you farkied as [skoo-REDACTED]?
///is it why I think
?
 
2014-06-06 02:44:21 PM
I lived in Illinois at a time when 13 people were exonerated and 12 people executed and quite frankly I didn't like those odds.  I don't want an innocent person being killed in my name and would rather have hundreds of guilty people given life in prison without parole instead of killing that one soul.  Besides life in prison if it is actually life in prison (and we can make it that just as easily as we can make executions happen) is not a picnic.  This is not about freeing the guilty, it is just about not putting the needle in their veins.  Prison can be fixed, death cannot.
 
2014-06-06 02:49:20 PM

BeesNuts: skoo-REDACTED


lulz

But not everyone who reads these threads posts in them. I try to remember to talk to those folks too when replying to a post.

Well, then I want those folk to know that capital punishment is barbaric, outdated, based on emotion and not logic, and that it has no place in a civilized society. And no matter how I present that information, it's going to be considered inflammatory by most. Because we are not there yet, obviously. But yeah, I do tend to get excitable.
 
2014-06-06 02:57:44 PM

interstellar_tedium: I lived in Illinois at a time when 13 people were exonerated and 12 people executed and quite frankly I didn't like those odds.  I don't want an innocent person being killed in my name and would rather have hundreds of guilty people given life in prison without parole instead of killing that one soul.  Besides life in prison if it is actually life in prison (and we can make it that just as easily as we can make executions happen) is not a picnic.  This is not about freeing the guilty, it is just about not putting the needle in their veins.  Prison can be fixed, death cannot.


On the other hand, I'm actually more likely to get out of prison alive if I'm falsely convicted and sentenced to death than if I'm senteneced to life w/o parole.

Despite the above, I think that the death penalty should stick around, but only be used in cases where it it estimated that letting the individual live will cost more innocent life(IE 51% or more likely to kill again) despite modern prison.  This would amount to a couple executions in the whole country annually.  For 'punishment' for a crime, I go with '3 or more murders, or deliberate torture in addition'.

I also view it like putting a mad dog down - no need to make them suffer.  As such I support using nitrogen asphixiation.  No need to find veins there.
 
2014-06-06 02:58:40 PM
Seems easier to just throw them off the roof of a 10 story building.
 
2014-06-06 03:09:41 PM
Why not death by carbon monoxide poisoning?

/Fall asleep, and never wake up
//worked in House of Cards
 
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