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(Salon)   Did 50 honorary doctorates give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Dr. Angelou"? If you answered no, you're a racist   ( salon.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, poetic justice, cultural practice, doctoral dissertations, honorary degrees  
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7459 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jun 2014 at 10:38 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



547 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-06-03 09:38:13 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-06-03 09:41:10 AM  

media.giphy.com

 
2014-06-03 09:49:03 AM  
From Wikipedia:

"In some countries, recipients of an honorary doctorate may, if they wish, adopt the title of 'Doctor'. Many universities, however, request that an honorary graduate refrain from such practice.

A typical example of university regulations is, 'Honorary graduates may use the approved post-nominal letters. It is not customary, however, for recipients of an honorary doctorate to adopt the prefix 'Dr.' "


So I guess the answer is, whether you should use that title depends on which university awarded it to you.

But since this lady was awarded 50 of them from various schools, then she surely had the right to use the title.
 
2014-06-03 09:56:17 AM  
Dr. Stephen Colbert D.F.A. disagrees.
 
2014-06-03 09:56:42 AM  
img2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-06-03 09:57:17 AM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Dr. Stephen Colbert D.F.A. disagrees.


Damnit, you.
 
2014-06-03 10:01:21 AM  
If you were awarded an honorary doctorate from some big froo froo school that didn't want you to use the 'Dr.' prefix, then you should just go get another one from Uncle Earl's Hairdo and Nail College, too.
 
2014-06-03 10:03:35 AM  
If you think an honorary doctorate doesn't give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Doctor," that's a perfectly legitimate opinion.

If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.
 
2014-06-03 10:15:01 AM  
Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.
 
2014-06-03 10:18:19 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.
 
2014-06-03 10:27:59 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


What about a DDS or DVM ?
 
2014-06-03 10:40:31 AM  
She's dead, who cares?
 
2014-06-03 10:40:56 AM  

borg: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

What about a DDS or DVM ?


My D.O. friend uses Dr. before his name.
 
Bf+
2014-06-03 10:42:06 AM  
I don't care, I'm still naming my son "Dr. Judge Bf+ the Third, PHD"
 
2014-06-03 10:42:31 AM  
Try calling the restaurant guy in whites a cook, talk about misplaced sensitivity.
 
2014-06-03 10:42:48 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


What if you're a Gallifreyan Time Lord?
 
2014-06-03 10:43:30 AM  
A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.
 
2014-06-03 10:43:39 AM  
2.bp.blogspot.com

It's Dr. Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister," thank you very much.
 
2014-06-03 10:44:45 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


Yep.  So is signing "Esq." (unless you really need to emphasize or clarify that you are writing the letter as a legal representative for someone)
 
2014-06-03 10:44:49 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


My former boss didn't want to be called doctor or have phd attached to his name on correspondence... Unless he was writing to someone who on his estimation would be impressed by or care about that kind of nonsense. It was actually kind of fun when he'd return some of the letters I drafted, so that I may add 'phd'. It basically would let me know which government officials he thought were idiots.
 
2014-06-03 10:46:18 AM  
Maya Angelou was incredibly overrated and didn't deserve 1/100th the attention she received.

And as long as we're on be subject, Martin Luther King Jr wasn't exactly a respected academic, either.
 
2014-06-03 10:46:55 AM  

borg: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

What about a DDS or DVM ?


If you refuse to call a DDS a Dr., you're a rabid anti-dentite!
 
2014-06-03 10:47:11 AM  
www.quickmeme.com
 
2014-06-03 10:48:01 AM  
"Brittney Cooper is a contributing writer at Salon, and teaches Women's and Gender Studies and Africana Studies at Rutgers."
'nuf said.
 
2014-06-03 10:48:52 AM  
Of course she has the right to demand that people refer to her as "Dr.".

I have the right to demand that people refer to me as "Your Holiness".

Nobody is under any obligation to call me anything at all, nor forbidden from calling me whatever they want.

Therefore, this entire discussion is stupid.
 
2014-06-03 10:48:58 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


Yeah, what does Neil DeGrasse Tyson know anyway?
 
2014-06-03 10:48:59 AM  
I see Doctorum Adamus Cum Flabello Dulce earns me a pretentious title... excellent....
 
2014-06-03 10:49:12 AM  

sigdiamond2000: If you think an honorary doctorate doesn't give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Doctor," that's a perfectly legitimate opinion.

If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


Pretty much this.
 
2014-06-03 10:49:16 AM  

kbronsito: It basically would let me know which government officials he thought were idiots.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here...all of 'em?
 
2014-06-03 10:49:44 AM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Of course she has the right to demand that people refer to her as "Dr.".

I have the right to demand that people refer to me as "Your Holiness".

Nobody is under any obligation to call me anything at all, nor forbidden from calling me whatever they want.

Therefore, this entire discussion is stupid.


"had"
 
2014-06-03 10:49:52 AM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Of course she has the right to demand that people refer to her as "Dr.".

I have the right to demand that people refer to me as "Your Holiness".

Nobody is under any obligation to call me anything at all, nor forbidden from calling me whatever they want.

Therefore, this entire discussion is stupid.


Did she ever demand it, or did others simply do it as a sign of respect?
 
2014-06-03 10:49:54 AM  

sigdiamond2000: If you think an honorary doctorate doesn't give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Doctor," that's a perfectly legitimate opinion.

If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


What if you think she's a lousy poet, and wildly overrated? Is that racist too?

\just checking Sir
\\Please tell me how I feel about things, ifyouwouldbesokind
 
2014-06-03 10:51:25 AM  

nickdaisy: And as long as we're on be subject, Martin Luther King Jr wasn't exactly a respected academic, either.


That's Dr. M. L. King to you, asshole.
 
2014-06-03 10:51:52 AM  
It isn't racist to point out that an honorary doctorate is nothing more than the equivalent of "the key to the city". It was pretentious of her to use Dr. just as it is pretentious for anyone with an honorary doctorate to use it regardless of race.
 
2014-06-03 10:51:57 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


The first rule is that it replaces "Mr."/"Ms."  Normally when you're talking to other people, including co-workers, you don't insist on being called "Mr."/"Ms.", so the title is irrelevant.

The second rule is that it only matters in a professional context, not for restaurant reservations and other BS.  Oooh.  You have a Ph.D.  Sadly for you, you need the same amount of food as the rest of us, so get in line and keep it to yourself.

The third rule is that you never correct anyone for yourself, because it makes you look worse than just not having the title.

Am I being introduced at a business meeting?  Am I picking a signature for a work email to someone that doesn't already know me?  Then I'm Dr. _ninja.  Otherwise, it never gets used.
 
2014-06-03 10:52:02 AM  

sigdiamond2000: If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


If she was white and you pointed it out, would you still be a racist?
 
2014-06-03 10:52:21 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


www.sweeneypr.com
 
2014-06-03 10:53:25 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


I don't intend to insist on being called Dr., but I think anyone who got a PhD by apprenticing under a professor and doing original research has every right to be called Dr. That's what it used to mean. M.D.s co-opted it when they were actually something like apprentices. Now it's just a professional certificate, so why not let the DDSs, ODs, DOs, and EdDs further sully the title?
 
2014-06-03 10:53:50 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


A moron with a lot of expensive education.
 
2014-06-03 10:53:59 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


If your MD is from an American or Canadian institution, it's not a doctorate, and you shouldn't call yourself a doctor at all. Research physicians have a separate Ph.D. that's a real doctorate.
 
2014-06-03 10:54:07 AM  

sigdiamond2000: If you think an honorary doctorate doesn't give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Doctor," that's a perfectly legitimate opinion.

If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


Did she play one on TV?

/And which antacid did she recommend?
 
2014-06-03 10:54:27 AM  
I agree with Dr. Cooper's point, of course. At the very least, Angelou shouldn't have to be attacked within days of her death, FFS.

Angelou is also overrated as a writer outside of her important contributions to feminism, civil rights, and personal identity, though, and I think that is what causes people like this Oppenheimer person to say rude things. I wouldn't call a first read through of "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" at the college level "grappling," for instance.
 
2014-06-03 10:54:33 AM  
If you mean she's a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor, then yes she's a doctor.
 
2014-06-03 10:55:15 AM  
An honorary doctorate still has more merit than one obtained from Liberty University.
 
2014-06-03 10:56:28 AM  
It has zero to do with being black, and everything to do with the fact I think anyone who gets upset at not being called doctor for their PhD is petty.  Lawyers have just as much right to be called "Doctor" but they don't biatch about it.

Also, FTA: To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." I have an earned doctorateBe for real?
 
2014-06-03 10:57:08 AM  
My last family doctor never introduced himself as Doctor.  He was always Ron.  And he had graduated near the top of his class, magna cum laude.  The younger generation of dentists also seem to be more comfortable just using first names, or Dr. first name, rather than the formal Dr. last name.
 
2014-06-03 10:57:23 AM  

Coming on a Bicycle: "Brittney Cooper is a contributing writer at Salon, and teaches Women's and Gender Studies and Africana Studies at Rutgers."
'nuf said.


Yes, because people who are less privileged then you (or study this lack of privilege) have opinions that don't matter.

Come to think of it, that's a perfect encapsulation of privileged thinking! Good job!
 
2014-06-03 10:57:33 AM  
Brittney Cooper  teaches Women's and Gender Studies and Africana Studies at Rutgers.

Dr. Cooper's comments also included this gem about the asshats at Westboro protesting the funeral.

"Are black women not allowed dignity in death? Must their funerals become a brawl and a ruckus?Are black women not allowed dignity in death? Must their funerals become a brawl and a ruckus?"

Hey Doc. No everything is about race and sex. Those morons hate everyone and not everything has to be viewed though a prism of race and sex.
 
2014-06-03 10:57:40 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


Dr. was a religious & academic title before physicians adopted it (the original English word for a medical practitioner being "leech"). In fact it comes from the Latin word for "teacher",

Insisting on it non-professionally is a bit pretentious, but that's true for medical doctors too.
 
2014-06-03 10:58:33 AM  

Rurouni: If you mean she's a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor, then yes she's a doctor.


Strangely enough, it's officially just "Dr Pepper", not "Dr. Pepper".  I think we've been pronouncing it wrong all this time.
 
2014-06-03 10:59:24 AM  
Unable to care. If you have a doctorate and wish me to call you doctor, I probably will as a courtesy. If you don't have a doctorate and wish me to call you doctor, I may or may not, depending on how courteous I feel. Big whoop. No racism required.
 
2014-06-03 10:59:34 AM  

Kann: not everything has to be viewed though a prism of race and sex


When that's your stock in trade..... and all you have is a hammer...
 
2014-06-03 11:01:22 AM  
Honorary degrees don't confer any rights to anyone other than the right to proclaim that you have received an honorary doctorate. If you think they do, please, allow someone with an honorary doctorate to operate on you.
 
2014-06-03 11:01:40 AM  
Is she currently feeding the worms? Dead as a doornail? Croaked? Titsup? TangoUniform?
 
2014-06-03 11:02:38 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


ithadtobeknit.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-06-03 11:03:56 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


This and that. I teach at a community college, and we have several Post-hole Diggers who get all butthurt about it. The actual professors from the nearby university who teach an adjunct course or two I can see, but "Dr. So-and-so" with her/his PhD. in Special Ed or Administration? Go f*ck yourselves.
 
2014-06-03 11:04:39 AM  
Doesn't the title usually go with the setting?

Like I golf with my MD and I don't call him Dr. on the course, but I do when I'm in his office.  
I also refer to to Professors as Dr. in the classroom setting but not if we're grabbing a beer or coffee.

Am I the only one that does that?
 
2014-06-03 11:05:26 AM  
I think only philosophers should be granted Ph.D's.
 
2014-06-03 11:05:33 AM  
If Mr Scholls can use the Doctor prefix, so can Maya.

/besides, most ladies nowadays are impressed by a TotalFarker title than a Dr.
 
2014-06-03 11:05:45 AM  
FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.
 
2014-06-03 11:06:39 AM  
When I check-in at the hotel I stay at while in Denver I always make a point to say I'm a State employee (University) so I can get the discount. As soon as they learn I work at a school they start calling me "Dr." Melgoesontour. I don't bother correcting them.
 
2014-06-03 11:07:31 AM  

chimp_ninja: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

The first rule is that it replaces "Mr."/"Ms."  Normally when you're talking to other people, including co-workers, you don't insist on being called "Mr."/"Ms.", so the title is irrelevant.

The second rule is that it only matters in a professional context, not for restaurant reservations and other BS.  Oooh.  You have a Ph.D.  Sadly for you, you need the same amount of food as the rest of us, so get in line and keep it to yourself.

The third rule is that you never correct anyone for yourself, because it makes you look worse than just not having the title.

Am I being introduced at a business meeting?  Am I picking a signature for a work email to someone that doesn't already know me?  Then I'm Dr. _ninja.  Otherwise, it never gets used.


this.  When my students call me Dr. Hyjamon, I don't correct them...Other faculty have heard this and (since they know I don't have a Ph.D) ask me why I don't correct the students.

My response is "They know quality when they see it."

/I have had a few students that knew I didn't have a Ph.D and they would still call me Dr., but they do it out of respect and to irk the other professors who aren't the best teachers who have Ph.D's
 
2014-06-03 11:07:53 AM  
waverecs.comToday I'm not a doctor, but you can call me one.
 
2014-06-03 11:07:56 AM  

Snarfangel: I think only philosophers should be granted Ph.D's.


What *is* a philosopher, really?
 
2014-06-03 11:08:01 AM  
1. 50 truck driving schools could give someone 50 honorary truck driving school certificates and that person probably wouldn't be able to parallel park a tractor trailer. 2. If you have "doctor" attached your name, honorary or through an overpriced school? you'd better know how to repair broken body parts or you're a fraud. 3. Poetry is stupid. 4. You can be a deemed a racist for disagreeing with an obama idea. The word racist really has zero meaning anymore. 5. Poetry is really dumb!
 
2014-06-03 11:09:21 AM  

nickdaisy: Maya Angelou was incredibly overrated and didn't deserve 1/100th the attention she received.

And as long as we're on be subject, Martin Luther King Jr wasn't exactly a respected academic, either.


I won't call her that.

She has excellent flow and structure. Her illustration of subjects that she wrote on with was on par with anything else produced in the last 50 years.

Most people calling her overrated just don't have interest or can connect to her story.

Whereas most people can connect Dr. William H. Cosby, Jr. and his stories.
 
2014-06-03 11:09:27 AM  

fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.


But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?
 
2014-06-03 11:10:18 AM  

Rising Ape: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Dr. was a religious & academic title before physicians adopted it (the original English word for a medical practitioner being "leech"). In fact it comes from the Latin word for "teacher",

Insisting on it non-professionally is a bit pretentious, but that's true for medical doctors too.


Opening credits.  Begin movie "CSB"

Cast: the uber-sexy and ultra-talented megastar, K3rmy as Himself

Setting: Call Center
When: Over a decade ago in the past
Cue scene:  K3rmy, loved by all, on the phone at a technical call center.
"Click Start, then click run.  Now type REGEDIT and press the ENTER key"
"Sure, I will be happy to assist you with swapping the motherboard out with the replacement you received from us today"
"We are going to boot into SAFE MODE, okay?  Now, when you turn on the system. . ."
All was wonderful (as could be in call center land - until)
"That you for calling *company* portable tech support, this is K3rmy"
"Yes, K3rmy, this is DOCTOR (their emphasis, not mine) So-and-So"
Now, as a lowly ranked peon, K3rmy was required to use said prefix if the customer requested it.  Normally, he would refrain from addressing the user at all until the end of the converstion.
"To recap, the purpose of the call was that there was a dead hamster in your CD-ROM tray and we have resolved the issue by removing said rodent.  In the future to prevent this, I would suggest that slices of provolone cheese do not go is said tray, even if they are round and of matching size, agreed?"
Doctor So-and-so, "Agreed."
"I do thank you for calling "company" portable tech support and hope you have a good evening, BOB!!" and then end the call.
Roll credits.  Await Oscar nominations for a brilliant performance.

Yeah yeah - childish, I know.
 
2014-06-03 11:11:40 AM  

Bf+: I don't care, I'm still naming my son "Dr. Judge Bf+ the Third, PHD"


Recently I've been trying to convince Mrs. Orange that our first child should be named "Lord Chancellor".  She's not on board completely, but she does agree it has a nice ring to it.  "Chance" would make a great nickname.
 
2014-06-03 11:11:59 AM  
1. You can call yourself Dr because you have an honorary doctorate
2. But you're being a pretentious douchebag if you do

I don't know much about Maya Angelou, except that white women love writing her quotes to seem wise. Was she a good person or not? You tell me. But on this matter, she was being a pretentious douchebag.
 
2014-06-03 11:12:27 AM  

LucklessWonder: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

What if you're a Gallifreyan Time Lord?


Then you're entitled to call yourself "The".
 
2014-06-03 11:12:38 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


Actually, you two have it backwards. M.D.'s don't do original research. Medical practitioners are the ones adopting the "Dr." out of place. :)
 
2014-06-03 11:12:46 AM  
what about dr science, he has a masters degree, in science!
 
2014-06-03 11:13:34 AM  
Why is this even a debate?  It's very simple.  If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

You may have "doctorate" degree in something other than medicine, and that's great.  Looks nice on a resume, but it doesn't make you a doctor.

Also, if you don't have an MD and insist that people call you 'doctor', you're a narcissistic farkwad who more than likely flunked-out of Med School like all the other chiropractors.

/Bill Cosby has at least one honorary doctorate.  I don't see him running around referring to himself as, Dr. Bill Cosby.
 
2014-06-03 11:13:52 AM  
"I'm not a doctor, but I do look like one; and I'm being paid to ask you this important question..."

/Police State
//Police State
///Police State
//Help! It's the police!
 
2014-06-03 11:13:57 AM  
www.filmdispenser.com
 
2014-06-03 11:14:01 AM  
Could she have? Most certainly. Should she have? No. Unless she was a narcissistic asshole.
 
2014-06-03 11:14:41 AM  

Jack Harper: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

I don't intend to insist on being called Dr., but I think anyone who got a PhD by apprenticing under a professor and doing original research has every right to be called Dr. That's what it used to mean. M.D.s co-opted it when they were actually something like apprentices. Now it's just a professional certificate, so why not let the DDSs, ODs, DOs, and EdDs further sully the title?


Ditto. I'm not getting the damn thing to be called "Doctor," but I reserve that right; it's a lot of hard work, regardless of what others may think about its practical value. It's true that plenty of PhDs are idiots outside of their area of specialty, but plenty of mundanes regular folks are like that too.

In line at the bank: doesn't matter, won't use it. At a conference of my peers: matters, will use it if everyone else is. In the classroom: sort of matters, may use it.  Picking up/impressing women: too sad to contemplate.
 
2014-06-03 11:15:31 AM  

Rising Ape: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Dr. was a religious & academic title before physicians adopted it (the original English word for a medical practitioner being "leech"). In fact it comes from the Latin word for "teacher",

Insisting on it non-professionally is a bit pretentious, but that's true for medical doctors too.


Even more pretentious for a lawn mower.

i.ytimg.com
 
2014-06-03 11:15:48 AM  

untaken_name: Snarfangel: I think only philosophers should be granted Ph.D's.

What *is* a philosopher, really?


A BS artist.
 
2014-06-03 11:15:55 AM  

chaddsfarkprefect: Try calling the restaurant guy in whites a cook, talk about misplaced sensitivity.


Seriously? Unless you're running the kitchen (and not just the line) you're not a chef.

/And we only call our chef by title when there are other people around
 
2014-06-03 11:16:07 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


If you think that Dr. is a title only for, or even primarily for, physicians then you might have a laughably bad understanding of the word Doctor.
 
2014-06-03 11:16:13 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate?  It's very simple.  If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.


The original use of the term Doctor means you were considered well enough educated in an academic field to teach it.  That's all.  It is not exclusive to the medical profession.
 
2014-06-03 11:16:33 AM  
This is my favorite part:

"Maya Angelou's work and words were a mainstay of my childhood. I vividly remember my mother's copy of "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" lying around the house....Even though I didn't read "Caged Bird" until college"
 
2014-06-03 11:16:35 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate?  It's very simple.  If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

You may have "doctorate" degree in something other than medicine, and that's great.  Looks nice on a resume, but it doesn't make you a doctor.

Also, if you don't have an MD and insist that people call you 'doctor', you're a narcissistic farkwad who more than likely flunked-out of Med School like all the other chiropractors.

/Bill Cosby has at least one honorary doctorate.  I don't see him running around referring to himself as, Dr. Bill Cosby.


He has a real one (Temple, PhD in education, c.1970) and twenty or so honoraries.

He uses it for script and producing credits, but not in everyday life.
 
Bf+
2014-06-03 11:17:23 AM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Bf+: I don't care, I'm still naming my son "Dr. Judge Bf+ the Third, PHD"

Recently I've been trying to convince Mrs. Orange that our first child should be named "Lord Chancellor".  She's not on board completely, but she does agree it has a nice ring to it.  "Chance" would make a great nickname.



Chance-y, L-Chance... I think you're on to something.
Well, you can tell her some anonymous guy on the internet thinks it's a great idea and said you should totally go for it.
It might just be the tipping point.
 
2014-06-03 11:17:55 AM  

stonicus: If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?


For the same reason that I don't get an honorary CDL just because I've been driving a car for a long time.
 
2014-06-03 11:18:35 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


upload.wikimedia.org
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)
 
2014-06-03 11:19:50 AM  
I never even heard of this woman, until after she died, and it was on the news.
 
2014-06-03 11:20:44 AM  

lamecomedian: This is my favorite part:

"Maya Angelou's work and words were a mainstay of my childhood. I vividly remember my mother's copy of "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" lying around the house....Even though I didn't read "Caged Bird" until college"


It really tied the room together.
 
2014-06-03 11:20:53 AM  

farkeruk: 1. You can call yourself Dr because you have an honorary doctorate
2. But you're being a pretentious douchebag if you do

I don't know much about Maya Angelou, except that white women love writing her quotes to seem wise. Was she a good person or not? You tell me. But on this matter, she was being a pretentious douchebag.


Is it really pretension to use an honorific that more than 50 universities have gone out of the way to express that you deserve? Postension maybe? Or just "appropriate"? Unless someone wants to make the argument that Maya Angelou couldn't have gotten a DFA or Ph.D. the standard way, and took the easy way out by becoming a phenomenally successful and influential poet and author instead.
 
2014-06-03 11:21:07 AM  
Dr. Bill Cosby, JP

(jello puddin')
 
2014-06-03 11:21:35 AM  
Also not a doctor.:

news.kjosy.com
 
2014-06-03 11:21:38 AM  
Wow. What a stupid waste of an article.
No, she's not a real doctor. There isn't even a decent argument and anyway she's dead.
 
2014-06-03 11:22:04 AM  

stonicus: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 232x300]
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)


So is Johnny Depp.
 
2014-06-03 11:22:22 AM  
minaday.com

Is getting a kick out of this thread.
 
2014-06-03 11:22:36 AM  
stonicus:
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)


Hey now... I happen to be a Kentucky Colonel. And I believe our beloved Drew is one, as well.
 
2014-06-03 11:23:00 AM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Bf+: I don't care, I'm still naming my son "Dr. Judge Bf+ the Third, PHD"

Recently I've been trying to convince Mrs. Orange that our first child should be named "Lord Chancellor".  She's not on board completely, but she does agree it has a nice ring to it.  "Chance" would make a great nickname.


I think "Supreme Commander" has a nice ring
 
2014-06-03 11:23:12 AM  

stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?


I have been working in IT for over 15 years. That doesn't make me a network engineer. It is a title given to people who have put in the academic hours and course study. She wasn't a PhD. She had more than enough time to get one. And it probably wouldn't have been all that difficult for her but she didn't put in the work to obtain the PhD. As such she should not have called herself Doctor no matter how much the woman at Salon wants to try to justify it. So Angelou was a jerk about certain things, like being called Dr when she wasn't one. Lots of artists are jerks, doesn't reduce the importance of their art.
 
Bf+
2014-06-03 11:23:13 AM  
This just in...
jlcauvin.comwww.unysonlogistics.com

We're not making any claims, just questioning the validity Rug Doctor's "degree".  Is he really a doctor, or was the document "doctored"?
Joining us on our panel, ladies and gentlemen, is Joe the Plumber... Welcome, Joe.
 
2014-06-03 11:23:38 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Bill Cosby has at least one honorary doctorate. I don't see him running around referring to himself as, Dr. Bill Cosby.


Yes and No.

Bill was a high school dropout.  He joined the US Navy and earned his HS equiv. degree.

He did attend Temple under a scholarship, but never finished.  Temple later awarded him a bachelors based on "Life experiences"


But Cosby did earn his Doctors of Education from University of Mass. by submitting a thesis titled: "An Integration of the Visual Media via Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids into the Elementary School Curriculum as a Teaching Aid and Vehicle to Achieve Increased Learning." It's 142 pages long, with another 100 pages of bibliography and appendices.

So some of his education was earned and some was "awarded", but I've never seen him use the "Dr" title, even on the books he has written
 
2014-06-03 11:23:52 AM  

This text is now purple: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

If your MD is from an American or Canadian institution, it's not a doctorate, and you shouldn't call yourself a doctor at all. Research physicians have a separate Ph.D. that's a real doctorate.


Came for this. American & Canadian MD's are considered Bachelor's professional degrees, despite the number of years of schooling. To obtain a doctorate as an MD requires additional schooling.

PhD's are doctorates in their respective fields and have had the appropriate education (which is generally more than an MD, actually).

Don't give a royal damn what Angelou's ancestry was, she didn't put in the time to get the education, she doesn't get to be called "Dr." You can be a ninety year old white man with honorary degrees from 50 universities and a hundred published books and I'll say the same damn thing.
 
2014-06-03 11:24:19 AM  

frontwheeldriver: Kraftwerk Orange: Bf+: I don't care, I'm still naming my son "Dr. Judge Bf+ the Third, PHD"

Recently I've been trying to convince Mrs. Orange that our first child should be named "Lord Chancellor".  She's not on board completely, but she does agree it has a nice ring to it.  "Chance" would make a great nickname.

I think "Supreme Commander" has a nice ring


Great game. Best of its genre.
 
2014-06-03 11:24:59 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


Look at supervillains. They ALL use their title. They like it to be known that they're doctors, dammit. But you never see Bruce Banner correcting anyone for not calling him Dr Banner.
 
2014-06-03 11:25:15 AM  

debug: If she was white and you pointed it out, would you still be a racist?


Oh yeah, that's a real common problem.  And happens a lot.  With dead white people.  Your hypothetical sure shut down all those people who are identifying common symptoms of real world racism.

This is #3 on the list of things "not racist" racist people do:  Targeted minorities are held to a higher standard as to whether they deserve respect.
 
2014-06-03 11:25:25 AM  

untaken_name: stonicus: If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?

For the same reason that I don't get an honorary CDL just because I've been driving a car for a long time.


The same reason I don't have an honorary Linux credential even though I've ran Linux for 11 years and have done hundreds of installs.
 
2014-06-03 11:25:34 AM  

Another Government Employee: Most people calling her overrated just don't have interest or can connect to her story.


So my opinion is worth less than yours, because you have decided I don't like her because I can't be bothered to properly appreciate her?

What an ass.
 
2014-06-03 11:26:52 AM  
As far as I can tell, a person who earns a PhD in something has automatically earned the academic title of "Doctor".  They can choose to use that title in communications or not.  Earning a PhD is a major achievement and a person who has earned a PhD has earned respect of other academics.  The person has learned nearly all there is to know about a field of knowledge and has contributed new knowledge to that chosen field.  From a title perspective, It matters not whether that field is medical science or English literature.

Honorary doctorates are an award from an institution and are not necessarily associated with academics.  They are generally given as an award for a person's contribution to an institution or to a specific field or even to society in general.  I would guess that there are far fewer honorary doctorates in this world than there are doctorates--a person generally has to achieve some measure of greatness in order to receive an honorary doctorate.  Does this entitle a recipient of an honorary doctorate to us the title "Doctor"?  Maybe and I don't care.  I think if someone has achieved enough to receive an honorary doctorate, then they can do whatever they like with the title.  If I meet a person who has received fifty honorary doctorates, I will act with deferential awe for I will be in the presence of greatness.
 
2014-06-03 11:27:02 AM  

sigdiamond2000: If you think an honorary doctorate doesn't give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Doctor," that's a perfectly legitimate opinion.

If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


My first reaction was "who" since I never heard of her before her death. Now that she's gone, all of a sudden she matters a lot.
 
2014-06-03 11:27:05 AM  

the_rev: stonicus:
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)

Hey now... I happen to be a Kentucky Colonel. And I believe our beloved Drew is one, as well.


Correct. Altho it doesn't count for much other than being a good story
 
2014-06-03 11:27:33 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate?  It's very simple.  If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

You may have "doctorate" degree in something other than medicine, and that's great.  Looks nice on a resume, but it doesn't make you a doctor.

Also, if you don't have an MD and insist that people call you 'doctor', you're a narcissistic farkwad who more than likely flunked-out of Med School like all the other chiropractors.

/Bill Cosby has at least one honorary doctorate.  I don't see him running around referring to himself as, Dr. Bill Cosby.


Bill Cosby earned his real doctorate in education from the University of Massachusetts Amherst in 1976. Sometimes he does use the title "Doctor," especially when he's talking or writing about issues of childhood education. As others have noted above, you are backwards and wrong on the idea of physicians owning the title "Doctor."
 
2014-06-03 11:27:59 AM  
img.fark.net

What's all this about honorary doctorates being pretentious?
 
2014-06-03 11:28:01 AM  
 
2014-06-03 11:28:35 AM  
Is it racist to point out that her writing was quite childish and banal?
 
2014-06-03 11:29:49 AM  
If she was white and you pointed it out, would you still be a racist?

Oh yeah, that's a real common problem.  And happens a lot.  With dead white people.  Your hypothetical sure shut down all those people who are identifying common symptoms of real world racism.

This is #3 on the list of things "not racist" racist people do: Targeted minorities are held to a higher standard as to whether they deserve respect.



How long did you spend making your neat little list?

I bet you've got an impressive ignore list and all kinds of cool color codes for other farkers.
 
2014-06-03 11:30:17 AM  

CMYK and PMS: Is it racist to point out that her writing was quite childish and banal?


Not at all. Just retarded.
 
2014-06-03 11:30:27 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-06-03 11:30:32 AM  
A friend of mine just got a doctorate in education from a fairly prestigious private university in California.  She added both Dr. and Ed.D. to her name on her business cards, LinkedIn, Facebook, and  pretty much anywhere her name is posted.

Her company paid for the degree which sounds like a great deal, but now she's stuck there for something like 5-7 years because if she quits she has to pay back the cost (prorated) of her degree.  She's miserable because she's still doing the same job for the same money, and is incensed that she still reports to her boss old who doesn't have a doctorate.  I'm not sure why anyone involved went through all that trouble just to have nothing but business cards change.  A tuition reimbursement plan run wild, I suppose.  But I digress.

Awarding honorary doctorates is just a way for universities to get a discount on speaker's fees.  The number someone has is just a measure of how many commencement addresses they've given.

/CSB
 
2014-06-03 11:30:33 AM  

stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?


Cool your jets.  Nobody is discounting anything, or saying that she wasn't a major figure in the field.  If anything, what she did counts for a lot more than just getting a PhD.  I have a friend, Professor Mike, who has a legit PhD in 20th century American poetry.  For this honorific he spent about 6 years of his life in various schools, wrote a whole mess of poems, studied even MORE poems, edited a series of poetry journals, taught courses and went through the general hazing ritual of grad school.  At the end of this, he wrote his thesis (original work and all that) on whatever he wrote it on and sat in the circle of judgement where lifelong students of the written word assessed his work and declared him to be a straight up man of poetry.

And you will probably never hear his name again.

For her stellar work as a poet, Ms Angelou will be recognized for generations as one of the great American poets.  A kind of immortal status reached by very few.  I would argue that this is much more important.  But she didn't go through the decade long hazing ritual, so she doesn't get to use the honorific that designates that she finished the hazing ritual.
 
2014-06-03 11:30:37 AM  

Drew: the_rev: stonicus:
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)

Hey now... I happen to be a Kentucky Colonel. And I believe our beloved Drew is one, as well.

Correct. Altho it doesn't count for much other than being a good story


They mailed me a pretty certificate that I hung up in my office at home.
 
2014-06-03 11:30:38 AM  

Sin_City_Superhero: kbronsito: It basically would let me know which government officials he thought were idiots.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here...all of 'em?


Many of them... Pretty much all ambassadors.
 
2014-06-03 11:31:33 AM  

the_rev: stonicus:
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)

Hey now... I happen to be a Kentucky Colonel. And I believe our beloved Drew is one, as well.


Do you feel you should be allowed to be called a Colonel?
 
2014-06-03 11:31:34 AM  
www.reed.edu
 
2014-06-03 11:32:49 AM  
img.fark.net
horrified by this thread.
 
2014-06-03 11:33:12 AM  

stonicus: the_rev: stonicus:
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)

Hey now... I happen to be a Kentucky Colonel. And I believe our beloved Drew is one, as well.

Do you feel you should be allowed to be called a Colonel?


It would amuse me a little bit, but that's all.
 
2014-06-03 11:33:23 AM  

farkeruk: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Look at supervillains. They ALL use their title. They like it to be known that they're doctors, dammit. But you never see Bruce Banner correcting anyone for not calling him Dr Banner.


He gets called Dr Banner all the time, as does Dr Richards.  There is a hliarious series of panels about a year ago in which Tony Stark complains that nobody ever calls HIM Dr even though he has three PhDs.
 
2014-06-03 11:33:44 AM  
I have a black belt and a MS degree.

I insist on being called "Master Sensei Merdeux."


People usually just say, "STFU and give my Quarter Pounder, arsehole."
 
2014-06-03 11:35:09 AM  

Joe USer: untaken_name: Snarfangel: I think only philosophers should be granted Ph.D's.

What *is* a philosopher, really?

A BS artist.


It's the talk on a cereal box or a walk on the slippery rocks.
 
2014-06-03 11:35:43 AM  

Rurouni: If you mean she's a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor, then yes she's a doctor.


You shut your whore mouth. Doctor Pepper saved countless lives on 9/11 by performing emergency surgery right there in the rubble.

Have some respect.
 
2014-06-03 11:36:50 AM  
oddlovescompany.com
 
2014-06-03 11:37:52 AM  

doubled99: If she was white and you pointed it out, would you still be a racist?

Oh yeah, that's a real common problem.  And happens a lot.  With dead white people.  Your hypothetical sure shut down all those people who are identifying common symptoms of real world racism.

This is #3 on the list of things "not racist" racist people do: Targeted minorities are held to a higher standard as to whether they deserve respect.


How long did you spend making your neat little list?

I bet you've got an impressive ignore list and all kinds of cool color codes for other farkers.


Actually, you're the only one I have color coded in this whole thread, and it's entirely an accident.  Someone in another thread was claiming climate change deniers change their stories, so I went back through the idiots, and marked them all with the arguments they were making(the results of my research was just that they were diverse morons, not giant hypocrites).  Yours was a particularly stupid "Scientists will change their minds in 30 years because I'm a magic prognosticator", if you didn't know already.


How do you use your psychic powers in the real world?
 
2014-06-03 11:38:28 AM  
I hate her because she was always blubbering anti-Semitic crap, her work and support of the Nation of Islam and opening her 'classes' in Arabic, slamming the Jews.

She was a Grade A +++ icon of the leftist puke bags
 
2014-06-03 11:38:31 AM  
The main issue with Maya Angelou is the fact her poetry is simply horrible.  It's not good.  Where did all the acclaim come from?  We know the answer, of course, and it wasn't because she was an amazing writer, she wasn't.

Notwithstanding she made ludicrous claims about her life, such as her website stating she spoke six languages fluently, which the news media picked up on with glee last week, talking about how amazing she was for speaking six languages fluently.

Search the word "fiction" in her Wikipedia page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Angelou

" Angelou's major works have been labeled as autobiographical fiction."  She loved creating wacky facts about herself.  Probably said she invented the question mark, too.

But forget all that - - she was lauded as being a SUPER AMAZING POETESS.  When it's obvious even her best known works were absolute shiat.

http://schencka.mindsay.com/a_poem_that_sucks_phenomenal_woman_by_ma ya _angelou.mws

http://www.thelmagazine.com/TheMeasure/archives/2009/07/08/maya-ange lo u-sucks-at-poetry

http://www.theoverratedtimes.com/the-list/maya-angelou/

Any one of those pages offers funny if not academic reasons why Angelou's writing is garbage.

This paragraph says it all:

She's the go-to poet for presidential inaugurations, Kennedy Center galas, and other large, well-funded events where the content or artistic value of a poem is irrelevant, but having heard of the poet is. She's the Paul Shaffer of poetry. ("Guys! We've got a televised all-star band tribute to a famous rock star. Make sure Paul Shaffer is available!") She might be a very nice lady too. And yet Maya Angelou's poetry is uniformly, strikingly, fascinatingly terrible. Try reading one of her poems. We dare you. Just hearing the first stanza makes us tremble with dread: flashbacks to graduation ceremonies in the blazing sun, or an endless outdoor theater festival we made the mistake of attending.
 
Bf+
2014-06-03 11:38:55 AM  

frontwheeldriver: Kraftwerk Orange: Bf+: I don't care, I'm still naming my son "Dr. Judge Bf+ the Third, PHD"

Recently I've been trying to convince Mrs. Orange that our first child should be named "Lord Chancellor".  She's not on board completely, but she does agree it has a nice ring to it.  "Chance" would make a great nickname.

I think "Supreme Commander" has a nice ring



My kids will hate me...
"Galtar, Destroyer of Worlds... Galtar?  Galtar, Destroyer of Worlds?"
"Here."
 
2014-06-03 11:38:57 AM  

HeartBurnKid: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

Yeah, what does Neil DeGrasse Tyson know anyway?


Neil DeGrasse Tyson, as far as I know, does not insist that you call him "doctor".
 
2014-06-03 11:39:04 AM  

NobleHam: CMYK and PMS: Is it racist to point out that her writing was quite childish and banal?

Not at all. Just retarded.


Especially when your grasp of poetry is limited to "Roses are red, violets are blue, I wrote this poem, but it doesn't rhyme."
 
2014-06-03 11:39:56 AM  

NobleHam: Is it really pretension to use an honorific that more than 50 universities have gone out of the way to express that you deserve?


Yes, it is. If 50 universities think she deserves an honorary doctorate, it still means that no university has granted her an actual doctorate.

And "going out of their way"? How much do you think it costs for a university to grant an honorary doctorate?
 
2014-06-03 11:40:31 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: I hate her because she was always blubbering anti-Semitic crap, her work and support of the Nation of Islam and opening her 'classes' in Arabic, slamming the Jews.

She was a Grade A +++ icon of the leftist puke bags


citation kinda wanted

/for future use
 
2014-06-03 11:40:42 AM  

FLMountainMan: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Yep.  So is signing "Esq." (unless you really need to emphasize or clarify that you are writing the letter as a legal representative for someone)


As an Esq, I totally agree
 
2014-06-03 11:40:49 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Neil DeGrasse Tyson, as far as I know, does not insist that you call him "doctor".


Actually he insists his wife exclusively call him "Doctor Sagan" in bed.

//Little known fact.
 
2014-06-03 11:41:46 AM  
I'm a Doctor not a poetry writer!
www.rankopedia.com
 
2014-06-03 11:42:49 AM  

Gunderson: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Bill Cosby has at least one honorary doctorate. I don't see him running around referring to himself as, Dr. Bill Cosby.

Yes and No.

Bill was a high school dropout.  He joined the US Navy and earned his HS equiv. degree.

He did attend Temple under a scholarship, but never finished.  Temple later awarded him a bachelors based on "Life experiences"


But Cosby did earn his Doctors of Education from University of Mass. by submitting a thesis titled: "An Integration of the Visual Media via Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids into the Elementary School Curriculum as a Teaching Aid and Vehicle to Achieve Increased Learning." It's 142 pages long, with another 100 pages of bibliography and appendices.

So some of his education was earned and some was "awarded", but I've never seen him use the "Dr" title, even on the books he has written


Ever watch the end credits to the 80's Cosby show? it list him as William H. Cosby Jr. Ed.D
 
2014-06-03 11:43:31 AM  
I just think she should have been buried in a bus.  In the FRONT seat.
 
2014-06-03 11:43:53 AM  
Clemkadidlefark

I hate her because...her work and support of the Nation of Islam...

Elaborate, please. We all know the NoI is full of whackjobs and idiots; what was her work with and relation to them?
 
2014-06-03 11:44:30 AM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


This ...

sigdiamond2000: If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


... and that too.
 
2014-06-03 11:46:17 AM  

stonicus: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 232x300]
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)


I have always respected southern gentlemen that call themselves "Colonel".  Southern women calling themselves colonel, not so much....
 
2014-06-03 11:46:34 AM  

I KNOW WHY THE CAGED BIRD SINGS

But I'm not going to tell you

 
2014-06-03 11:46:37 AM  

Kann: Brittney Cooper  teaches Women's and Gender Studies and Africana Studies at Rutgers.

Dr. Cooper's comments also included this gem about the asshats at Westboro protesting the funeral.

"Are black women not allowed dignity in death? Must their funerals become a brawl and a ruckus?Are black women not allowed dignity in death? Must their funerals become a brawl and a ruckus?"

Hey Doc. No everything is about race and sex. Those morons hate everyone and not everything has to be viewed though a prism of race and sex.


Aren't we all deserving of dignity in death, short of an individual's path in life, like having been a murderer or a rapist or something? Also what is she, Jacob Two-Two?
 
2014-06-03 11:47:38 AM  
An honorary doctorate is like the adult version of receiving a gold star in kindergarten.
 
2014-06-03 11:47:54 AM  
www.brianmay.com
Ladies and Gents, Dr Brian May recieving his Phd at Imperial college. In astrophysics of all things.
 
2014-06-03 11:48:38 AM  
How long did you spend making your neat little list?

I bet you've got an impressive ignore list and all kinds of cool color codes for other farkers.

Actually, you're the only one I have color coded in this whole thread, and it's entirely an accident.  Someone in another thread was claiming climate change deniers change their stories, so I went back through the idiots, and marked them all with the arguments they were making(the results of my research was just that they were diverse morons, not giant hypocrites).  Yours was a particularly stupid "Scientists will change their minds in 30 years because I'm a magic prognosticator", if you didn't know already.



Farking spot on!  Thanks for the confirmation.
 
2014-06-03 11:49:01 AM  
Doctor Maya Eyes Angelou. A musical tribute by Jackson Browne.
 
2014-06-03 11:49:02 AM  

nickdaisy: Maya Angelou was incredibly overrated and didn't deserve 1/100th the attention she received.

And as long as we're on be subject, Martin Luther King Jr wasn't exactly a respected academic, either.



Neither were George W. Bush or Sarah Palin. You weren't worried about intelligence when you voted for them. Oh, let me guess...you voted for Obama? Lol
 
2014-06-03 11:49:19 AM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: /Bill Cosby has at least one honorary doctorate.  I don't see him running around referring to himself as, Dr. Bill Cosby.


Really? because he does that exact thing all the time - and I think he's the only person who annoys me when he does it, because he thinks it gives him free license to talk about the kids today with the rap and the hip hop and the this and the that and the Theo where is Cockroach with the Jell-o Pudding Pops and the zerberts blahhhhzzzzingsahh.
 
2014-06-03 11:50:16 AM  

topcon: But forget all that - - she was lauded as being a SUPER AMAZING POETESS. When it's obvious even her best known works were absolute shiat.


img.fark.net
 
2014-06-03 11:50:31 AM  

doubled99: Farking spot on! Thanks for the confirmation.


Yeah, I'm so worried about judgement from your psychicness.  Please don't destroy my mind with your devesting mental powers.

 I'm sorry you're so apparently "not racist", as to be butthurt over something that didn't address you at all.

//They never know they're morons.
 
2014-06-03 11:51:43 AM  
topcon: *Another post about hating something associated with black people*

Ok. We get it.
 
2014-06-03 11:52:44 AM  

someonelse: topcon: But forget all that - - she was lauded as being a SUPER AMAZING POETESS. When it's obvious even her best known works were absolute shiat.

[img.fark.net image 321x360]


Stop saying criticism isn't valid with that lameass cliched picture.
 
2014-06-03 11:52:57 AM  

untaken_name: Snarfangel: I think only philosophers should be granted Ph.D's.

What *is* a philosopher, really?


More importantly: why?
 
2014-06-03 11:53:00 AM  

topcon: The main issue with Maya Angelou is the fact her poetry is simply horrible.  It's not good.  Where did all the acclaim come from?  We know the answer, of course, and it wasn't because she was an amazing writer, she wasn't.


The main issue that you seem to have never learned the difference between "opinion" and "fact" in elementary school. You might consider finding your first or second grade teacher and asking about the disservice that teacher did to you.

You're making a judgment call on art - merely an opinion - and stating it as some sort of incontrovertible fact. Guess what, people might like and see merit in stuff you don't like. I certainly like Bacon's Figure with Meat, but the next person might not. But that doesn't make my opinion valid and the other person's opinions invalid.
 
2014-06-03 11:54:17 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: topcon: *Another post about hating something associated with black people*

Ok. We get it.


It must suck constantly getting the equivalent of gold stars (to use someone's analogy) based purely on your race.  Put Maya Angelou's poetry in a vacuum detached from the person who wrote it and no one would care about it.
 
2014-06-03 11:56:17 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: I hate her because she was always blubbering anti-Semitic crap, her work and support of the Nation of Islam and opening her 'classes' in Arabic, slamming the Jews.

She was a Grade A +++ icon of the leftist puke bags


Awww. Someone's got a crush on Deb Schlussel.
 
2014-06-03 11:56:20 AM  

topcon: DROxINxTHExWIND: topcon: *Another post about hating something associated with black people*

Ok. We get it.

It must suck constantly getting the equivalent of gold stars (to use someone's analogy) based purely on your race.  Put Maya Angelou's poetry in a vacuum detached from the person who wrote it and no one would care about it.



In space, no one can hear you rhyme.
 
2014-06-03 11:56:53 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-06-03 11:57:03 AM  
No. Hopefully her death will spearhead the effort to stop forcing children to read her shiatty book though. That was my most hated part of 9th grade English
 
2014-06-03 11:57:24 AM  

demarke: FLMountainMan: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Yep.  So is signing "Esq." (unless you really need to emphasize or clarify that you are writing the letter as a legal representative for someone)

As an Esq, I totally agree

.

Not only that, but it is grammatically incorrect to refer to yourself as Esquire. Rather, in the US it may (and should) be used when addressing another attorney. Here in the Northeast, it's commonplace, however.

http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/06/is-it-proper-to-refer-to-o ne self-as-esq.html
 
2014-06-03 11:57:35 AM  
Farking spot on! Thanks for the confirmation.

Yeah, I'm so worried about judgement from your psychicness.  Please don't destroy my mind with your devesting mental powers.


The fun part is you will actually stew half the day over this and other random comments. Enjoy your day!
 
2014-06-03 11:58:56 AM  
My favorite story about Mike Tyson (yeah, that Mike Tyson) being awarded an honorary doctorate:

High school drop out, boxing champion, jailbird and honorary doctor, Mike Tyson upset his hosts at Central State University when making his acceptance speech. "I wasn't sure what kind of doctor I was, but looking at all the lovely sisters here, I think I'll be a doctor of gynecology," he said.


I give his "Doctorate" the same weight I give Angelou's.
 
2014-06-03 12:00:05 PM  
*checks Miss Manners*

No one properly introduces themselves socially via a title.  First name, last name, is what everyone should use to introduce themselves.  So correcting other people who call you "Mr./Ms." and insisting they call you "Dr." is technically a no-no for everyone.  This goes for all titles, not just ones based on degrees.

Medical practitioners who complete undergraduate medical education (MDs, DOs, DDMs, and so forth) may be properly introduced by other people, socially and professionally, as "Dr. So and So."

Everyone else gets to list their degrees and certifications after their names.  If you have a PhD, introducing yourself socially as "Dr." is a no-no on two counts, but in professional settings, on business cards, etc., it's perfectly fine to list the PhD.  Many medical professionals have multiple degrees and certifications and list them all out on their business cards - MD, FACP, etc. I know quite a few RN/PhD and RN/MDs.

Some business and academic settings deviate from this.  The arena in which I work introduces both physicians and doctorate holders as "Dr."  Some universities use "Professor" for all instructors, regardless of titles held. In the Netherlands, they use (or used to use) the Dutch version of "Professor Doctor" for professors who hold PhDs, which sounds rather swanky.

/pedantic, but I have to be
 
2014-06-03 12:00:29 PM  

farkeruk: NobleHam: Is it really pretension to use an honorific that more than 50 universities have gone out of the way to express that you deserve?

Yes, it is. If 50 universities think she deserves an honorary doctorate, it still means that no university has granted her an actual doctorate.

And "going out of their way"? How much do you think it costs for a university to grant an honorary doctorate?



The important thing to remember her is that with all that farkeruk has contributed to society and the greater good, it is he DUTY to shiat on any "undeserved" accomplishment.
 
2014-06-03 12:01:16 PM  

topcon: DROxINxTHExWIND: topcon: *Another post about hating something associated with black people*

Ok. We get it.

It must suck constantly getting the equivalent of gold stars (to use someone's analogy) based purely on your race.  Put Maya Angelou's poetry in a vacuum detached from the person who wrote it and no one would care about it.



But, we DO care about it because...?
 
2014-06-03 12:01:20 PM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


Isaac Asimov was once asked by a young lady if he was "a real doctor, or just a PhD."  He decided that "PhD" stood for "Phony Doctor."
 
2014-06-03 12:01:26 PM  

stonicus: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 232x300]
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)



It's an insult to real southern colonels like the great Colonel Angus.

s.yimg.com
 
2014-06-03 12:01:46 PM  
Ben Franklin was styled as Dr. Franklin after he received an honorary doctorate from the College of William and Mary. Of course, you recall, Franklin had little formal secondary education and was primarily a printer's apprentice during his adolescence. He was given the honorary doctorate because of his contributions to science and learning. Is Maya Angelou really that different? Is she somehow not worthy of the same honor for her contributions to literature?
 
2014-06-03 12:02:33 PM  

topcon: someonelse: topcon: But forget all that - - she was lauded as being a SUPER AMAZING POETESS. When it's obvious even her best known works were absolute shiat.

[img.fark.net image 321x360]

Stop saying criticism isn't valid with that lameass cliched picture.


Hey, there's plenty of valid criticism of her work. I'm not even a huge fan of her writing, although some of it did resonate with me. Your post, however, offered nothing in the way of valid criticism. You posted a bunch of links and a copy-paste. I actually doubt you've ever read anything of hers. Calling her overrated just fits into your agenda for whatever reason. Or maybe it  just annoys you that people like something you don't want them to like, and the meme is perfectly suited to you.
 
2014-06-03 12:02:49 PM  
Queen Latifah isn't really a queen, either.
 
2014-06-03 12:03:40 PM  

kortex: No. Hopefully her death will spearhead the effort to stop forcing children to read her shiatty book though. That was my most hated part of 9th grade English


iat looks like English was your "most hated" part about 9th grade English.
 
2014-06-03 12:04:16 PM  
img3.wikia.nocookie.net
static.comicvine.com
 
2014-06-03 12:04:26 PM  
cdn2.thelineofbestfit.com
 
2014-06-03 12:04:30 PM  

dave2198: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

Actually, you two have it backwards. M.D.'s don't do original research. Medical practitioners are the ones adopting the "Dr." out of place. :)



This.
They are meat mechanics who rely on the body's self-repair to do most of the work.
 
2014-06-03 12:05:37 PM  
 
2014-06-03 12:06:27 PM  

UtileDysfunktion: Queen Latifah isn't really a queen, either.


And Prince Fielder isn't really a fielder.
 
2014-06-03 12:07:06 PM  

nickdaisy: Maya Angelou was incredibly overrated and didn't deserve 1/100th the attention she received.


What about her work did you find lacking?

And as long as we're on be subject, Martin Luther King Jr wasn't exactly a respected academic, either.

At the risk of understating the obvious, Dr. King was not exactly known best for his academic achievements.  What was the point of that statement?
 
2014-06-03 12:07:19 PM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate? It's very simple. If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.


Nurse Practitioners can prescribe medication. Are they doctors?
 
2014-06-03 12:07:31 PM  

Boxcutta: demarke: FLMountainMan: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Yep.  So is signing "Esq." (unless you really need to emphasize or clarify that you are writing the letter as a legal representative for someone)

As an Esq, I totally agree.

Not only that, but it is grammatically incorrect to refer to yourself as Esquire. Rather, in the US it may (and should) be used when addressing another attorney. Here in the Northeast, it's commonplace, however.

http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/06/is-it-proper-to-refer-to-o ne self-as-esq.html


Says you.

s3.media.squarespace.com
 
2014-06-03 12:09:14 PM  

GnomePaladin: nickdaisy: Maya Angelou was incredibly overrated and didn't deserve 1/100th the attention she received.

What about her work did you find lacking?

And as long as we're on be subject, Martin Luther King Jr wasn't exactly a respected academic, either.

At the risk of understating the obvious, Dr. King was not exactly known best for his academic achievements.  What was the point of that statement?


I think he took 'black people that I think only got appreciated only because they were black' for 200, Alex.
 
2014-06-03 12:11:33 PM  

give me doughnuts: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate? It's very simple. If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

Nurse Practitioners can prescribe medication. Are they doctors?



Only if P=NP

(Physician equals Nurse Practitioner, obviously)
 
2014-06-03 12:11:40 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: HeartBurnKid: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

Yeah, what does Neil DeGrasse Tyson know anyway?

Neil DeGrasse Tyson, as far as I know, does not insist that you call him "doctor".


Did Maya Angelou?
 
2014-06-03 12:11:48 PM  

RexTalionis: topcon: The main issue with Maya Angelou is the fact her poetry is simply horrible.  It's not good.  Where did all the acclaim come from?  We know the answer, of course, and it wasn't because she was an amazing writer, she wasn't.

The main issue that you seem to have never learned the difference between "opinion" and "fact" in elementary school. You might consider finding your first or second grade teacher and asking about the disservice that teacher did to you.

You're making a judgment call on art - merely an opinion - and stating it as some sort of incontrovertible fact. Guess what, people might like and see merit in stuff you don't like. I certainly like Bacon's Figure with Meat, but the next person might not. But that doesn't make my opinion valid and the other person's opinions invalid.


This thread is f%cking *full* of people confusing "fact" for "opinion",on both sides of this stupid f%cking argument. If you don;t like her, you don;t like her. If you love her, that's wonderful for you as well.

Neither position is "right or wrong", but still true to each person.
 
2014-06-03 12:11:54 PM  

tricycleracer: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

[www.sweeneypr.com image 580x326]


So much for Dr. Martin Luther King huh Marcus Aurelius?  You racist.

- Just kidding, I don't care.
 
2014-06-03 12:15:00 PM  
I took an EE class in college. The instructor was also a long-haired metalhead guitarist with an insane gear collection who built pedals and stuff in his spare time. He came into the first lecture wearing a hockey jersey and began by talking for what seemed like 5 minutes about how to refer to him. The tl;dr version: "I have a PhD, but all that means is I achieved a certain level of knowledge in my field. I'm really uncomfortable with formal titles. Like, really, really, really uncomfortable. Please don't call me Dr. So-and-so or even Mr. So-and-so. Just call me Tom, like everyone else does. If you feel you must call me Dr. out of respect or whatever, I'll understand, but I really prefer you call me Tom." It was almost comically long-winded and a little strange in a "show me on this doll where the word 'Doctor' touched you" sort of way, but he turned out to be a cool, down-to-earth, guy and a good instructor. It was a nice change of pace from the "I have a PhD, therefore I'm better than you" people I had to work with at that university on a daily basis.
 
2014-06-03 12:17:23 PM  

GnomePaladin: nickdaisy: Maya Angelou was incredibly overrated and didn't deserve 1/100th the attention she received.

What about her work did you find lacking?

And as long as we're on be subject, Martin Luther King Jr wasn't exactly a respected academic, either.

At the risk of understating the obvious, Dr. King was not exactly known best for his academic achievements.  What was the point of that statement?


It seems he plagiarized his Doctoral Thesis or much of it.. so claims Dr. David Duke who received his Ph.D on the internet from a school in the Ukraine.
 
2014-06-03 12:21:17 PM  

farkeruk: NobleHam: Is it really pretension to use an honorific that more than 50 universities have gone out of the way to express that you deserve?

Yes, it is. If 50 universities think she deserves an honorary doctorate, it still means that no university has granted her an actual doctorate.

And "going out of their way"? How much do you think it costs for a university to grant an honorary doctorate?


I got charged $19 for my (B.A) diploma, but that was a while ago. Prices have probably gone up a bit. The robe, hood, and funny hat for my M.L.S. cost $125.
So I'm guessing it doesn't cost much.
 
2014-06-03 12:22:18 PM  
Of course she's a Doctor. She hung out with Dr. Johnson....

http://titsandsass.com/the-erasure-of-maya-angelou/
 
Bf+
2014-06-03 12:23:00 PM  

someonelse: UtileDysfunktion: Queen Latifah isn't really a queen, either.

And Prince Fielder isn't really a fielder.



Congrats you evoked a LLOL.
That there is genius.
 
2014-06-03 12:25:37 PM  

Snarfangel: give me doughnuts: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate? It's very simple. If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

Nurse Practitioners can prescribe medication. Are they doctors?


Only if P=NP

(Physician equals Nurse Practitioner, obviously)


Depending what state you are in, NPs can prescribe medications, as long as it is within their scope of practice.
 
2014-06-03 12:28:20 PM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


Seconded. I have a PhD in physics and cringe to hear myself referred to as "Doctor".

/other than for the party after your defense, everyone has fun referring to each other as doctor on that day, and that day only....
 
2014-06-03 12:30:49 PM  
ts2.mm.bing.net
 
2014-06-03 12:31:14 PM  
Overrated
 
2014-06-03 12:32:11 PM  
she truly was a genius...

"We had him" (written for the Michael Jackson tribute)

Beloveds, now we know that we know nothing, now that our bright and shining star can slip away from our fingertips like a puff of summer wind.
Without notice, our dear love can escape our doting embrace. Sing our songs among the stars and walk our dances across the face of the moon.
In the instant that Michael is gone, we know nothing. No clocks can tell time. No oceans can rush our tides with the abrupt absence of our treasure.
Though we are many, each of us is achingly alone, piercingly alone.
Only when we confess our confusion can we remember that he was a gift to us and we did have him.
He came to us from the creator, trailing creativity in abundance.
Despite the anguish, his life was sheathed in mother love, family love, and survived and did more than that.
He thrived with passion and compassion, humor and style. We had him whether we know who he was or did not know, he was ours and we were his.
We had him, beautiful, delighting our eyes.
His hat, aslant over his brow, and took a pose on his toes for all of us.
And we laughed and stomped our feet for him.
We were enchanted with his passion because he held nothing. He gave us all he had been given.
Today in Tokyo, beneath the Eiffel Tower, in Ghana's Black Star Square.
In Johannesburg and Pittsburgh, in Birmingham, Alabama, and Birmingham, England
We are missing Michael.
But we do know we had him, and we are the world.
 
2014-06-03 12:32:14 PM  

actualhuman: chaddsfarkprefect: Try calling the restaurant guy in whites a cook, talk about misplaced sensitivity.

Seriously? Unless you're running the kitchen (and not just the line) you're not a chef.

/And we only call our chef by title when there are other people around


I'd take it a little further, as someone that was previously a head cook at a steakhouse, I'd just tell people I was a cook, if they asked more specifically what role, I'd say head cook, but never chef.  That always seemed more reserved for someone that actually has authority to create a menu of unique dishes and does it well, typically with culinary school training.
 
2014-06-03 12:33:06 PM  

doubled99: Farking spot on! Thanks for the confirmation.

Yeah, I'm so worried about judgement from your psychicness.  Please don't destroy my mind with your devesting mental powers.

The fun part is you will actually stew half the day over this and other random comments. Enjoy your day!


"ha ha, I've got him, his responding to my post means that he's emotional about it.  Now I don't have to worry about the fact that my own statements are among the most ill-informed in the world"
--a genius.
 
2014-06-03 12:33:19 PM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


As a collegue of mine noted, when a general practice physician and collegue insisted he not refer to him by his first name but use the appalletion "Dr.":

"My PhD is 9 years of post-graduate research in which one valuably contributes to the expansion of human knowledge and demonstrated mastery of a field. Your MD is a glorified master's degree with an extended practicum. I am a rocket science, and you're not a brain surgeon. If you want to get uppity, I'm 'Dr.' you're 'Ted'."
 
2014-06-03 12:36:31 PM  

sigdiamond2000: If you think an honorary doctorate doesn't give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Doctor," that's a perfectly legitimate opinion.

If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


Thread over. Why the fark are there over 170 comments?
 
2014-06-03 12:37:07 PM  

RexTalionis: Ben Franklin was styled as Dr. Franklin after he received an honorary doctorate from the College of William and Mary. Of course, you recall, Franklin had little formal secondary education and was primarily a printer's apprentice during his adolescence. He was given the honorary doctorate because of his contributions to science and learning. Is Maya Angelou really that different? Is she somehow not worthy of the same honor for her contributions to literature?


I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.
 
2014-06-03 12:37:51 PM  

nickdaisy: Maya Angelou was incredibly overrated and didn't deserve 1/100th the attention she received.


I feel the same way about Shakespeare...
 
2014-06-03 12:38:05 PM  

untaken_name: Snarfangel: I think only philosophers should be granted Ph.D's.

What *is* a philosopher, really?


oi58.tinypic.com

/ depends on the week
 
2014-06-03 12:39:30 PM  
lamecomedian:
I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.

So, are you simply ignorant of her contribution to the body of liturature of the 20th century, the field in which she has been honored? Or are you that dismissive of all accomplished black women?

Her achievements in the context of her field are substantial.
 
2014-06-03 12:40:28 PM  

untaken_name: Snarfangel: I think only philosophers should be granted Ph.D's.

What *is* a philosopher, really?


zoerae.files.wordpress.com
What a man with a Doctorate in Philosophy might look like...
 
2014-06-03 12:40:34 PM  
I never would've imagined that Maya Angelou was such a divisive figure.
 
2014-06-03 12:40:46 PM  
Unless you can prescribe meds or I am in a professional relationship with you, you ain't a "Dr.".
 
2014-06-03 12:41:10 PM  
TL;DR all of these comments.  Just came in to point out that I'm also a honorary Doctor.  Rev. Dr. to be precise thanks to the Universal Life Church.  My wife is also a Doctor, but she did it the hard way by going to Doctorat school for about 7 years...sucker!
 
2014-06-03 12:41:47 PM  

Kope: lamecomedian:
I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.

So, are you simply ignorant of her contribution to the body of liturature of the 20th century, the field in which she has been honored? Or are you that dismissive of all accomplished black women?

Her achievements in the context of her field are substantial.


And still outweighed by the utility of a device that keeps lightning storms from burning your house down.

/I'm very accomplished in the field of internet snark, but I don't expect to get a title for it.
 
2014-06-03 12:41:52 PM  

I Browse: I never would've imagined that Maya Angelou was such a divisive figure.


Really? If you think about it, can you name an accomplished black person who is not divisive in American culture? Even Bill Cosby has his haters.
 
2014-06-03 12:42:29 PM  

lamecomedian: I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.


And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

"Oh her accomplishments were in the fine arts, which we all know no one can get a regular PhD in."


You personally are racist.  This is not some ad hominem.  This is the inevitable conclusion of applying your argument as intended.  And finding what actually differs.  You are racist.  Seriously.  You are.  It'd be nice if you'd stop.  But the accusation is only going to make you defensive.  You're going to argue.  We're going to argue.  And at the end of the day, there's no non-racist justification for your line of argument(except the misogynist one).

Please rethink your racism(you won't).
 
2014-06-03 12:42:55 PM  

Kope: I Browse: I never would've imagined that Maya Angelou was such a divisive figure.

Really? If you think about it, can you name an accomplished black person who is not divisive in American culture?


Will Smith?

Morgan Freeman?

James Earl Jones?

That dude who did all the cool stuff with peanuts?
 
2014-06-03 12:43:39 PM  

stonicus: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 232x300]
I bet you absolutely hate this guy.
(He's only an honorary Kentucky Colonel)


Haha, good reference!  For the sake of argument, I don't think he was ever trying to pass himself off as an actual, real military Colonel, nor were most people ever led to believe it was anything more than a honorary title for largely marketing purposes of playing a character.  For the sake of the article, I'd also point out that you probably wouldn't have some slacktivist at Salon calling you a racist for not using his honorary title.
 
2014-06-03 12:43:46 PM  
The title Doctor means a lot to MDs and to people who don't know any MDs.
 
2014-06-03 12:44:09 PM  
lamecomedian:
And still outweighed by the utility of a device that keeps lightning storms from burning your house down.

/I'm very accomplished in the field of internet snark, but I don't expect to get a title for it.


I would politely suggest that utility is not the only measure of accomplishment. Watson and Crick's discovery of the structure of DNA is, by itself alone, utterly without utility. Does that make their publication less important to their field.
 
2014-06-03 12:45:05 PM  

Kope: I Browse: I never would've imagined that Maya Angelou was such a divisive figure.

Really? If you think about it, can you name an accomplished black person who is not divisive in American culture? Even Bill Cosby has his haters.


I've noted that for most black celebrity articles, the comments always contain someone yammering about how "classless" said person is in a situation that doesn't appear to warrant it.
 
2014-06-03 12:46:03 PM  
For that matter, who does Colonel Sanders think he is?  He was never a military Colonel.  He was just given an honorary "Kentucky Colonel" title that were handed out like candy back then.
 
2014-06-03 12:46:17 PM  
ikanreed

And here's the evidence of racism. Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards". That's why we know. It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

Perhaps he simply values utilitarian innovations over art. That's neither racist, nor misogynist.
 
2014-06-03 12:46:39 PM  

lamecomedian: Kope: I Browse: I never would've imagined that Maya Angelou was such a divisive figure.

Really? If you think about it, can you name an accomplished black person who is not divisive in American culture?

Will Smith?


Smith has some interesting haters: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/27054349.html
It doesn't take great google fu to find similiarly ludicrous things about any famous black person.
 
2014-06-03 12:48:16 PM  

debug: sigdiamond2000: If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.

If she was white and you pointed it out, would you still be a racist?


Nope, just a garden-variety asshole.

\racists are a special subset of assholes
 
2014-06-03 12:48:19 PM  

lamecomedian: Will Smith?

Morgan Freeman?

James Earl Jones?


3 well paid hollywood actors?  More famous doesn't mean less contentious.
Seriously?  Compared to Maya-farking-Angelou?

Also: google autocomplete tells me people think that:
Will Smith is a jerk and homosexual
Morgan Freeman is a asshole and a racist
James Earl Jones is a republican.
 
2014-06-03 12:48:23 PM  
Kope:

Really? If you think about it, can you name an accomplished black person who is not divisive in American culture? Even Bill Cosby has his haters.


Al Roker is always my go-to answer. He's about as non-controversial as you can be.
 
2014-06-03 12:48:47 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: ikanreed

And here's the evidence of racism. Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards". That's why we know. It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

Perhaps he simply values utilitarian innovations over art. That's neither racist, nor misogynist.


True - that's merely ignorant.
 
2014-06-03 12:49:56 PM  

ikanreed: lamecomedian: I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.

And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

"Oh her accomplishments were in the fine arts, which we all know no one can get a regular PhD in."


You personally are racist.  This is not some ad hominem.  This is the inevitable conclusion of applying your argument as intended.  And finding what actually differs.  You are racist.  Seriously.  You are.  It'd be nice if you'd stop.  But the accusation is only going to make you defensive.  You're going to argue.  We're going to argue.  And at the end of the day, there's no non-racist justification for your line of argument(except the misogynist one).

Please rethink your racism(you won't).


Racist?  Misogynist?  I don't see how in the hell you get either of those from that.  All I get from his words is that he doesn't place much value on poetry or literature.  I also agree that some of Benjamin Franklin's inventions exceed the work of any poem.  Even poems written by white males.  Am I also a misogynist racist?
 
2014-06-03 12:50:09 PM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


On the contrary, using the title "doctor" just because it's your job is pretentious.
 
2014-06-03 12:50:27 PM  

ikanreed: lamecomedian: I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.

And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

"Oh her accomplishments were in the fine arts, which we all know no one can get a regular PhD in."


Man, you suck at this.  It's a denigration of the humanities as being somehow inferior to the hard sciences.  And as someone who's written what - about four of five snarky sentences so far? - I haven't had to go very far out of my way to minimize her accomplishments.  Her poetry is weak, treacly, greeting-card caliber pap.

You personally are racist.  This is not some ad hominem.  This is the inevitable conclusion of applying your argument as intended.  And finding what actually differs.  You are racist.  Seriously.  You are.  It'd be nice if you'd stop.  But the accusation is only going to make you defensive.  You're going to argue.  We're going to argue.  And at the end of the day, there's no non-racist justification for your line of argument(except the misogynist one).

Please rethink your racism(you won't).


I wrote my MA thesis on novels of racial passing and how they evolved based upon US legal classifications of race (as seen in immigration laws and census categories) and  I spent four years teaching at a largely black, low-income high school.  

Please go on about how I'm a virulent racist.
 
2014-06-03 12:50:43 PM  

sigdiamond2000: If you think an honorary doctorate doesn't give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Doctor," that's a perfectly legitimate opinion.

If your first reaction to Maya Angelou's death is pointing out that she's "not a real doctor," you're probably a racist.


What if I point out that she's a terrible poet?
 
2014-06-03 12:50:50 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Perhaps he simply values utilitarian innovations over art. That's neither racist, nor misogynist.


Irrelevant, because we're talking about PhDs, which are granted for art too.  There's no paralell to that.  She's perhaps one of history's most famous poets.  Being reduced to "greeting cards" is explicitly about this guys' racism.
 
2014-06-03 12:52:23 PM  

I Browse: Al Roker


http://kbasin.blogspot.com/2007/05/roker-isnt-funny-he-is-racist.htm l

Seriously - you can name the most innocuous, nicest, classiest famous, accomplished black person you can, and someone out there is trying to tear them down.
 
2014-06-03 12:52:23 PM  

ikanreed: lamecomedian: I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.

And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

"Oh her accomplishments were in the fine arts, which we all know no one can get a regular PhD in."


You personally are racist.  This is not some ad hominem.  This is the inevitable conclusion of applying your argument as intended.  And finding what actually differs.  You are racist.  Seriously.  You are.  It'd be nice if you'd stop.  But the accusation is only going to make you defensive.  You're going to argue.  We're going to argue.  And at the end of the day, there's no non-racist justification for your line of argument(except the misogynist one).

Please rethink your racism(you won't).


Perhaps he's just not f*cking impressed by poets. Since no where in his opinion of Maya Angelou was her gender or race mentioned.

static.ddmcdn.com

\hypersensitive, are we?
 
2014-06-03 12:53:24 PM  

Kope: lamecomedian:
And still outweighed by the utility of a device that keeps lightning storms from burning your house down.

/I'm very accomplished in the field of internet snark, but I don't expect to get a title for it.

I would politely suggest that utility is not the only measure of accomplishment. Watson and Crick's discovery of the structure of DNA is, by itself alone, utterly without utility. Does that make their publication less important to their field.


And that is absolutely a fair counterpoint.  But what is "produced" by the humanities is very rarely of little genuine utility, because what can be "built" upon it generally ends up being so much intellectual masturbation (I say this as someone who's been in the field for several years now).

There's a hierarchy of needs.  Not getting my house burned down every time the lightning comes along > any amount of poetry or literary insight.
 
2014-06-03 12:53:56 PM  

stonicus: Racist? Misogynist? I don't see how in the hell you get either of those from that. All I get from his words is that he doesn't place much value on poetry or literature. I also agree that some of Benjamin Franklin's inventions exceed the work of any poem. Even poems written by white males. Am I also a misogynist racist?


This is exactly how I knew it would go.  "No no no, it can't be racism, here's irrelevant point that could mean its' something else"

It's so damned 1 dimensional.
 
2014-06-03 12:54:14 PM  

kindms: stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?

I have been working in IT for over 15 years. That doesn't make me a network engineer. It is a title given to people who have put in the academic hours and course study. She wasn't a PhD. She had more than enough time to get one. And it probably wouldn't have been all that difficult for her but she didn't put in the work to obtain the PhD. As such she should not have called herself Doctor no matter how much the woman at Salon wants to try to justify it. So Angelou was a jerk about certain things, like being called Dr when she wasn't one. Lots of artists are jerks, doesn't reduce the importance of their art.


Didn't put in the work?  She was teaching and a hell of a lot more published than her peers.  90% of a PHD is jumping through hoops for your PI and doing the background for their own on-going research.  Then you come up with something that they'll give you credit for after making sure they were co-author on enough of your papers.  Granted, they let you co-author on some of theirs so that everyone reaches their publish quota.
 
2014-06-03 12:57:11 PM  

Launch Code: 1. 50 truck driving schools could give someone 50 honorary truck driving school certificates and that person probably wouldn't be able to parallel park a tractor trailer. 2. If you have "doctor" attached your name, honorary or through an overpriced school? you'd better know how to repair broken body parts or you're a fraud. 3. Poetry is stupid. 4. You can be a deemed a racist for disagreeing with an obama idea. The word racist really has zero meaning anymore. 5. Poetry is really dumb!


Frankly, I'm surprised to find that you can actually count to 5.

\I'm just going to assume that a small child helped you with that.
 
2014-06-03 12:57:22 PM  

Kope: lamecomedian: Kope: I Browse: I never would've imagined that Maya Angelou was such a divisive figure.

Really? If you think about it, can you name an accomplished black person who is not divisive in American culture?

Will Smith?

Smith has some interesting haters: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/27054349.html
It doesn't take great google fu to find similiarly ludicrous things about any famous black person.


FTFY.
 
2014-06-03 12:57:59 PM  

stonicus: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate?  It's very simple.  If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

The original use of the term Doctor means you were considered well enough educated in an academic field to teach it.  That's all.  It is not exclusive to the medical profession.


I'm well aware of that.  What I was talking about are the pretentious assholes who only hold 'honorary' degrees (or none at all) 

Xetal: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

If you think that Dr. is a title only for, or even primarily for, physicians then you might have a laughably bad understanding of the word Doctor.


And you might have an exaggerated definition of the word as it currently exists.  If you introduce yourself as Dr. So-and-So, 99% of people will think you hold an MD unless you explain that you're a 'DOCTOR' of English or mathematics.  My point remains that anyone who doesn't have an MD, and refers to themselves as Dr. So-and-So is a pretentious asswipe.
 
2014-06-03 12:58:24 PM  
Angelou attended the California Labor School and graduated at 17.

She went to work thereafter and stayed employed the rest of her life.

There is no record she ever went to college anywhere, she is entirely self--taught.
 
2014-06-03 12:58:33 PM  

ikanreed: stonicus: Racist? Misogynist? I don't see how in the hell you get either of those from that. All I get from his words is that he doesn't place much value on poetry or literature. I also agree that some of Benjamin Franklin's inventions exceed the work of any poem. Even poems written by white males. Am I also a misogynist racist?

This is exactly how I knew it would go.  "No no no, it can't be racism, here's irrelevant point that could mean its' something else"

It's so damned 1 dimensional.


No, not saying it "can't" be, just saying it doesn't "have" to be, which is what you illogically claim.  In your mind, the ONLY reason someone doesn't like Maya Angelou's poetry is because they are racist.  The only one being 1 dimensional is you my friend.
 
2014-06-03 12:58:49 PM  

CheapEngineer: Perhaps he's just not f*cking impressed by poets. Since no where in his opinion of Maya Angelou was her gender or race mentioned.

static.ddmcdn.com


Bullshiat.
Complete bullshiat.
Double bullshiat.  We were talking about how honorary PhDs can allow for someone to be called doctor, when they were white.  Dr. Franklin was brought up as someone who was so accomplished in his field that he got honorary degrees that were respected.

Maya Angelou is 100% a parellel there.  Top of her field.  PhDs in that field as a result.  Now, if fine arts degrees didn't count in the first place, sure.  We'd have a reasonable excuse.  That doesn't work.  They're racist.  And people rushing to defend them make no farking sense.  Is it a "I'm terrified of being called a racist too" thing?  Because I'm not going there.  One specific argument is undoubtedly steeped in racist overtones, regardless of whether race is brought up.

"You must be racist for identifying racism" is the lamest piece of shiat argument anyone has ever used.

I know I'm not getting through to you.  I don't care anymore.
 
2014-06-03 12:59:01 PM  

ikanreed: stonicus: Racist? Misogynist? I don't see how in the hell you get either of those from that. All I get from his words is that he doesn't place much value on poetry or literature. I also agree that some of Benjamin Franklin's inventions exceed the work of any poem. Even poems written by white males. Am I also a misogynist racist?

This is exactly how I knew it would go.  "No no no, it can't be racism, here's irrelevant point that could mean its' something else"

It's so damned 1 dimensional.


"Irrelevant" doesn't mean "contrary to my opinion."

It's okay.  Reasoning is hard when you think everything is racism.
 
2014-06-03 12:59:39 PM  

Kope: It doesn't take great google fu to find similiarly ludicrous things about any famous black person.


FTFY. Farkers looking for racism where there is none? I am FARKING SHOCKED.
 
2014-06-03 01:00:18 PM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


THIS!
 
2014-06-03 01:00:24 PM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: stonicus: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate?  It's very simple.  If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

The original use of the term Doctor means you were considered well enough educated in an academic field to teach it.  That's all.  It is not exclusive to the medical profession.

I'm well aware of that.  What I was talking about are the pretentious assholes who only hold 'honorary' degrees (or none at all)


No, you weren't talking about honorary anything.  You said "if you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor".  You're just wrong.
 
2014-06-03 01:00:24 PM  

grokca: She's dead, who cares?


Editors. Thanks to the flood of post-mortem articles regarding her, editors are at a loss to nail down exactly how her name should be rendered in print. These things are important to editors.

Dealing with a chip on someone else's shoulder by pointing out the chip on your own shoulder, though, doesn't seem to be the right approach. She's absolutely right, in that it's amazing how "Miss" or "Mrs.", rather than "Dr.", is used when referring to female holders of doctorates - but that's a clear symbol of gender inequity, at least to me, instead of racial inequity, as expression of this trait has been personally observed with little to no heed for the perceived race of the female doctorate holder.

The fun part is that, if we'd move towards a gender-agnostic approach in English, I'd like to believe that many of these issues would vanish - and, just as importantly, many of the gender-specific issues would not be construed as racial-specific or class-specific issues, as well.
 
2014-06-03 01:00:27 PM  

stonicus: No, not saying it "can't" be, just saying it doesn't "have" to be, which is what you illogically claim. In your mind, the ONLY reason someone doesn't like Maya Angelou's poetry is because they are racist. The only one being 1 dimensional is you my friend.


When they're argument lacks a fundamental merit, and there's a well documented and understood phenomenon among people with racist tendencies to do exactly this?  Yeah.

Farkers are by-and-large terrified of the idea that racism can be anything but the overt kind.  I don't get why.
 
2014-06-03 01:02:43 PM  

lamecomedian: "Irrelevant" doesn't mean "contrary to my opinion."

It's okay. Reasoning is hard when you think everything is racism.


And I knew you wouldn't actually reconsider.  It'd be "that's just your opinion, man." Even though the structure of your argument is flagrantly flawed.  And the behavior you're exhibiting correlates strongly to other racist behavior.   It must not be racism because you're not racist, right?

I don't know why I bother.
 
2014-06-03 01:03:31 PM  

chimp_ninja: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

The first rule is that it replaces "Mr."/"Ms."  Normally when you're talking to other people, including co-workers, you don't insist on being called "Mr."/"Ms.", so the title is irrelevant.

The second rule is that it only matters in a professional context, not for restaurant reservations and other BS.  Oooh.  You have a Ph.D.  Sadly for you, you need the same amount of food as the rest of us, so get in line and keep it to yourself.

The third rule is that you never correct anyone for yourself, because it makes you look worse than just not having the title.

Am I being introduced at a business meeting?  Am I picking a signature for a work email to someone that doesn't already know me?  Then I'm Dr. _ninja.  Otherwise, it never gets used.



This is a good post, I agree.  But to add on, the title means something.  That's why when you're being introduced to someone new, you introduce yourself as Dr. _ninja.  It tells the room/person perhaps this guy does know what he's talking about.

Honorary doctorates are not education, they are awards.  They don't confer the title and some Universities will explicitly state you cannot use the title Dr. if you accept their honorary doctorate.  She shouldn't have called herself Dr. Angelou.
 
2014-06-03 01:03:44 PM  
The story of Maya Angelou's turbulent early life (in absolute truth as well as in the vivid, embellished narratives) and her identity as a black woman are inextricable from her body of work as a poet and writer. She had the courage to be outspoken -- for herself and others -- in a society that wanted her to shut up and get along. In this day and age, it's true that people like her are sometimes lauded too gushingly and uncritically by people eager to expiate the racial sins of the past or to display their enlightened tolerance. I understand how that can grate. It doesn't mean there's not value and significance beneath all the progressive obeisance.

Her poetry is not to everyone's taste (I'm not that fond of it), but fused with her identity and history it can be quite powerful. It's a call to those who've grown up struggling, a strong and honest call that says "I survived, I shine, and so can you".

Poetry is only one aspect of why Maya Angelou was important; it was only one of her expressions (she was also an accomplished dancer and musician, for instance). Angelou the person was the force that made her poetry matter, whatever one makes of its raw artistic quality.

UtileDysfunktion: Queen Latifah isn't really a queen, either.


http://www.theonion.com/articles/king-latifah-returns-for-wife,9148/
 
2014-06-03 01:03:47 PM  

ikanreed: CheapEngineer: Perhaps he's just not f*cking impressed by poets. Since no where in his opinion of Maya Angelou was her gender or race mentioned.

static.ddmcdn.com

Bullshiat.
Complete bullshiat.
Double bullshiat.  We were talking about how honorary PhDs can allow for someone to be called doctor, when they were white.  Dr. Franklin was brought up as someone who was so accomplished in his field that he got honorary degrees that were respected.

Maya Angelou is 100% a parellel there.  Top of her field.  PhDs in that field as a result.  Now, if fine arts degrees didn't count in the first place, sure.  We'd have a reasonable excuse.


As other people with actual reading comprehension skills were able to discern, that was my point.

That doesn't work.  They're racist.  And people rushing to defend them make no farking sense.  Is it a "I'm terrified of being called a racist too" thing?  Because I'm not going there.  One specific argument is undoubtedly steeped in racist overtones, regardless of whether race is brought up.

"You must be racist for identifying racism" is the lamest piece of shiat argument anyone has ever used.

I know I'm not getting through to you.  I don't care anymore.


I'm surprised you cared about us racists in the first place, since we're just convenient tools to give yourself a sense of moral worth.  Otherwise you'd be off arguing about things that actually matter, like education, incarceration, drug policy, etc.  You know, instead of whining about whether or not a dead person should or shouldn't get a specific title.
 
2014-06-03 01:04:31 PM  

ikanreed: stonicus: No, not saying it "can't" be, just saying it doesn't "have" to be, which is what you illogically claim. In your mind, the ONLY reason someone doesn't like Maya Angelou's poetry is because they are racist. The only one being 1 dimensional is you my friend.

When they're argument lacks a fundamental merit, and there's a well documented and understood phenomenon among people with racist tendencies to do exactly this?  Yeah.

Farkers are by-and-large terrified of the idea that racism can be anything but the overt kind.  I don't get why.


I am just not a fan of poetry.  Why is that so hard for you to grasp?  No deep dark hidden reason.  No underlying evil agenda I am trying to spread.  I just don't like poetry.  Why does this hurt you so bad?
 
2014-06-03 01:05:23 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


I worked with someone with PhD in education.  Her emails/correspondence routinely sounded like they were typed by a 12 year old.

/Piled high & Deep
 
2014-06-03 01:05:38 PM  

ikanreed: I don't know why I bother.


I don't know either.  You're not making the slightest bit of sense.  Ooops, I must be racist.
 
2014-06-03 01:06:09 PM  

ikanreed: lamecomedian: "Irrelevant" doesn't mean "contrary to my opinion."

It's okay. Reasoning is hard when you think everything is racism.

And I knew you wouldn't actually reconsider.  It'd be "that's just your opinion, man." Even though the structure of your argument is flagrantly flawed.  And the behavior you're exhibiting correlates strongly to other racist behavior.


Do go on.  I'd love to hear about the other racist things that I do.

It must not be racism because you're not racist, right?

I don't know why I bother.


Probably because it's a lot easier for you to feel like you're helping the world by arguing on the internet than it is to actually go out and help people.
 
2014-06-03 01:06:56 PM  
Kope

True - that's merely ignorant.

Well, you know...de gustibus non est disputandum.

ikanreed

Irrelevant, because we're talking about PhDs, which are granted for art too. There's no paralell to that. She's perhaps one of history's most famous poets. Being reduced to "greeting cards" is explicitly about this guys' racism.

Perhaps. Maybe he just doesn't like poetry. A better test of racism would be if he exalted poets of European ancestry over poets of African ancestry as a rule. Or maybe he just doesn't like this particular poet.

Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see it.

/shrug
 
2014-06-03 01:09:09 PM  

Bf+: I don't care, I'm still naming my son "Dr. Judge Bf+ the Third, PHD"


There's still room for a "Rev." and an "Esq." in there.

Me, I'm just naming my kid "Doctor," so people have to call him "Doctor" no matter what.
 
2014-06-03 01:09:44 PM  
Kope:

Seriously - you can name the most innocuous, nicest, classiest famous, accomplished black person you can, and someone out there is trying to tear them down.


Sadly, you're probably right. I've been sitting here for like five minutes trying to think of another famous black person who would be universally respected. I dunno...Crispus Attucks maybe?
 
2014-06-03 01:10:21 PM  
 
2014-06-03 01:11:01 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Kope

True - that's merely ignorant.

Well, you know...de gustibus non est disputandum.

ikanreed

Irrelevant, because we're talking about PhDs, which are granted for art too. There's no paralell to that. She's perhaps one of history's most famous poets. Being reduced to "greeting cards" is explicitly about this guys' racism.

Perhaps. Maybe he just doesn't like poetry. A better test of racism would be if he exalted poets of European ancestry over poets of African ancestry as a rule. Or maybe he just doesn't like this particular poet.


Winner winner, chicken dinner.

CSB: My very first grad seminar I got embroiled in a polite but vigorous debate about the value of poetry vs. prose in the 21st century... and then during my exams, I ended up admitting that I might have had a change of heart.  Kind of a weird full-circle thing.

/Not much 20th century+ stuff that I care for.
 
2014-06-03 01:11:36 PM  

I Browse: Kope:

Seriously - you can name the most innocuous, nicest, classiest famous, accomplished black person you can, and someone out there is trying to tear them down.


Sadly, you're probably right. I've been sitting here for like five minutes trying to think of another famous black person who would be universally respected. I dunno...Crispus Attucks maybe?


blog.timesunion.com
 
2014-06-03 01:11:48 PM  
pretentiousness is a way of life for some people... it demonstrates their sense of superiority.. or hides their feeling of inferiority.  Respect from someone directly knowledgeable of your character is one thing, but to demand some one show deference just because you're a twat is another.
 
2014-06-03 01:12:07 PM  

I Browse: Kope:

Seriously - you can name the most innocuous, nicest, classiest famous, accomplished black person you can, and someone out there is trying to tear them down.


Sadly, you're probably right. I've been sitting here for like five minutes trying to think of another famous black person who would be universally respected. I dunno...Crispus Attucks maybe?


Desmond Tutu?
Nelson Mandela?
Frederick Douglass?
 
2014-06-03 01:12:42 PM  

ikanreed: And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.


I've read some of Maya Angelou's poems, and I think Hallmark would send them back. They're terrible. Clunkingly terrible. And she got away with it for her whole life because of people like you - people who would call someone a racist or sexist as soon as anyone criticised them.
 
2014-06-03 01:15:10 PM  
I Browse

Sadly, you're probably right. I've been sitting here for like five minutes trying to think of another famous black person who would be universally respected. I dunno...Crispus Attucks maybe?

No one is universally-respected. I'm sure textbooks in British primary schools don't paint Attucks as any kind of martyr or hero. Most of his killers were successfully defended in court by a future American president (who ironically included some fun racism as part of their defence).
 
2014-06-03 01:15:13 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-06-03 01:15:20 PM  
lamecomedian:

Desmond Tutu?
Nelson Mandela?
Frederick Douglass?



Judging by all the Farkers who shiat on Mandela's grave when he died, I doubt Tutu or Douglass would fair much better.
 
2014-06-03 01:15:57 PM  

farkeruk: ikanreed: And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

I've read some of Maya Angelou's poems, and I think Hallmark would send them back. They're terrible. Clunkingly terrible. And she got away with it for her whole life because of people like you - people who would call someone a racist or sexist as soon as anyone criticised them.



Oh, so people bought and studied the writing of this one black woman because they were scared of being labelled racist? Well, how noble of you to be the first to fall on the sword for all of the wrongfully accused who WOULD stand up against this woman's tyranny if not for the protection given to her by guilty whites and blacks who play the race card.
 
2014-06-03 01:16:08 PM  

stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?


Unfortunately, many people assign more value to proving one's ability to sit in a classroom for years while someone else's opinions are crammed into their heads then regurgitating it all back out in some bullshiat thesis, than actual real life achievements.
 
2014-06-03 01:16:21 PM  

CADMonkey79: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

THIS!


Given that MD's appropriated the title from PhDs, Why do you preference them?
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_%28title%29#Origins
 
2014-06-03 01:17:04 PM  

I Browse: lamecomedian:

Desmond Tutu?
Nelson Mandela?
Frederick Douglass?


Judging by all the Farkers who shiat on Mandela's grave when he died, I doubt Tutu or Douglass would fair much better.


Okay, how about Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson?
 
2014-06-03 01:17:35 PM  

lamecomedian: /Not much 20th century+ stuff that I care for.


I subscribed to Poetry magazine last year and found it quite enjoyable. Yeah, there were lots of stinker poems, lots of YMMV stuff and some masturbatory experimental dreck, but there were always a few poems in each issue that really stirred me. You might enjoy checking out an issue or two.

There does seem to be an attitude in modern poetry that rhyme and meter, especially direct, unsubtle uses thereof, are quaint and trite and appropriate only for irony. This pisses me off.
 
Oak
2014-06-03 01:17:43 PM  

Gunderson: If Mr Scholls can use the Doctor prefix, so can Maya.



Dr. William M. Scholl was an M.D.
 
2014-06-03 01:17:59 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: farkeruk: ikanreed: And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

I've read some of Maya Angelou's poems, and I think Hallmark would send them back. They're terrible. Clunkingly terrible. And she got away with it for her whole life because of people like you - people who would call someone a racist or sexist as soon as anyone criticised them.


Oh, so people bought and studied the writing of this one black woman because they were scared of being labelled racist? Well, how noble of you to be the first to fall on the sword for all of the wrongfully accused who WOULD stand up against this woman's tyranny if not for the protection given to her by guilty whites and blacks who play the race card.


Lots of people buy Justin Bieber's music, too.  Popularity is not an indication of quality.
 
2014-06-03 01:19:48 PM  
Inchoate

There does seem to be an attitude in modern poetry that rhyme and meter, especially direct, unsubtle uses thereof, are quaint and trite and appropriate only for irony.

Uuugh. This.
 
2014-06-03 01:20:29 PM  
During  Robinson's life he was reviled by a great many people. Same with Owens.
 
2014-06-03 01:22:48 PM  

Inchoate: lamecomedian: /Not much 20th century+ stuff that I care for.

I subscribed to Poetry magazine last year and found it quite enjoyable. Yeah, there were lots of stinker poems, lots of YMMV stuff and some masturbatory experimental dreck, but there were always a few poems in each issue that really stirred me. You might enjoy checking out an issue or two.

There does seem to be an attitude in modern poetry that rhyme and meter, especially direct, unsubtle uses thereof, are quaint and trite and appropriate only for irony. This pisses me off.


Very much with you there.  I think poets have been getting a little too free with their verse.

I know, I know, that was terrible.

Of the 20th century lot, I've kind of developed a liking for Thomas Hardy, but MAN that dude is depressing.  Gotta take him in small doses.
 
2014-06-03 01:23:07 PM  
Did 50 honorary doctorates give Maya Angelou the right to call herself "Dr. Angelou"?

Only if she lacks self-esteem and shame.
 
2014-06-03 01:24:12 PM  

CADMonkey79: stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?

Unfortunately, many people assign more value to proving one's ability to sit in a classroom for years while someone else's opinions are crammed into their heads then regurgitating it all back out in some bullshiat thesis, than actual real life achievements many people demand that one prove one's ability to a neutral third party rather than just taking one's word that one is qualified.


I've been wiring houses for years! I don't need to take some useless tests to prove that I know what I am doing. You'll just have to take my word for it and hope like hell that your house doesn't burn down around you while you sleep.
 
2014-06-03 01:25:08 PM  
After receiving 50 honorary doctorates, I don't have a major problem with the lady calling herself a Doctor.

Though, in reality, if you didn't do the work, you can't legally do so. Most folks that I know of with honorary doctorates usually will list them as such on any business stationary or cards they use. If you got an honorary doctorate in medicine, you couldn't actually practice as a physician. You would not have the knowledge required.

As had been mentioned before, it wasn't exactly nice, necessary or even polite to mention that this lady's doctorates didn't count -- especially on the day of her funeral or within the mourning period.

IMO, it wasn't necessary to start a racist rant either mainly because racist rants from African-Americans have become far too common -- which means their effectiveness has diminished because folks get tired of reading them. Kind of like we know when certain news channels start urgently informing us of impending disasters, that they're going to be greatly exaggerated.
Or being warned of things which can cause Cancer, since everything, by now, apparently does.

The 'separate but equal' rule of thumb embraced by most African Americans tends to put a strain on relations. I know of no Middle Eastern physicians in practice who wear the traditional garb and turban of their homeland in American hospitals, but I do know of African American ones who show up fully dressed in 'traditional' African garb.

Again, the lady deserved her honorifics, her community chose to call her 'Dr.', she did a lot of good work and it was rude to defame her upon her burial by trying to down play her awards. It also wasn't the best thing to write a racist rant about in rebuttal.
 
2014-06-03 01:26:04 PM  

Kope: During  Robinson's life he was reviled by a great many people. Same with Owens.


I thought we were going for the broader historical (or at least contemporary) take.
 
2014-06-03 01:26:38 PM  
Facetious_Speciest:

No one is universally-respected. I'm sure textbooks in British primary schools don't paint Attucks as any kind of martyr or hero. Most of his killers were successfully defended in court by a future American president (who ironically included some fun racism as part of their defence).


True. "Universally respected" was a poor choice of phrasing. I'm sure there were some people out there who even hated Mr. Rogers.

I guess what surprised me about the Maya Angelou backlash is that I didn't think people had strong negative feelings about her. She seemed fairly non-controversial to me. But I suppose there's no such thing as that anymore.
 
2014-06-03 01:27:02 PM  

lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND: farkeruk: ikanreed: And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

I've read some of Maya Angelou's poems, and I think Hallmark would send them back. They're terrible. Clunkingly terrible. And she got away with it for her whole life because of people like you - people who would call someone a racist or sexist as soon as anyone criticised them.


Oh, so people bought and studied the writing of this one black woman because they were scared of being labelled racist? Well, how noble of you to be the first to fall on the sword for all of the wrongfully accused who WOULD stand up against this woman's tyranny if not for the protection given to her by guilty whites and blacks who play the race card.

Lots of people buy Justin Bieber's music, too.  Popularity is not an indication of quality.



Oh, I get it. Whatever you don't like is "low quality". That's pretty egotistical. And we thought Ms. Angelou had a big head.
 
2014-06-03 01:28:48 PM  
They called PHDs doctors back then because they didn't have modern medicine...  you get the black plague you talked to a priest, then ask a "doctor-- of philosophy" for a cure and died in a sodden mess of bloody pustules.  You quit deserving to be called doctors the second someone else figured out how to help people better.

I don't give a fark what they called people in the middle ages, you're not a doctor anymore. My dad is a doctor, nothing pissed me off more than some borderline competent to teach high school liberal arts professors insisting on me calling them doctors.  You want to get called a doctor, get approved by the state to write a prescription.

When this shiat finally goes all walking dead, who do you want as your doctor?  A PHD who's going to tell you what you could do if they had the right tools and a couple of years to do research, or a doctor who's going to save your ass right then and there.

/I am a licensed attorney, and ESQ doesn't and shouldn't mean shiat to anyone, it's just something attorneys have traditionally thrown after their names to sound important.   There's no law against calling yourself ESQ as long as you don't do it to misrepresent yourself in a transaction or as a professional...  if you add ESQ to your name and charge to talk to people you might get hit up for misrepresenting yourself as an attorney, but that's just cause the general public is stupid enough to assume you are one.
 
2014-06-03 01:29:51 PM  

kindms: stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?

I have been working in IT for over 15 years. That doesn't make me a network engineer. It is a title given to people who have put in the academic hours and course study. She wasn't a PhD. She had more than enough time to get one. And it probably wouldn't have been all that difficult for her but she didn't put in the work to obtain the PhD. As such she should not have called herself Doctor no matter how much the woman at Salon wants to try to justify it. So Angelou was a jerk about certain things, like being called Dr when she wasn't one. Lots of artists are jerks, doesn't reduce the importance of their art.


Why wouldn't you be able to call yourself that ? With that much experience are you not allowed to get the same certificates?  I'm still trying to figure out why more actual architects and licensed engineers don't take more exception to any IT people calling themselves network "engineers" or "architects".
 
2014-06-03 01:30:22 PM  
Rik01

...racist rants from African-Americans have become far too common -- which means their effectiveness has diminished because folks get tired of reading them.

My lack of interest in racist rants by African Americans has more to do with the fact that they're racist rants, rather than having heard too many of them. Though, honestly, the fact that they're usually racist rants directed at my particular racial group probably has something to do with that.

I know of no Middle Eastern physicians in practice who wear the traditional garb and turban of their homeland in American hospitals, but I do know of African American ones who show up fully dressed in 'traditional' African garb.

On the other hand, this is a thing? I honestly wouldn't think twice about a doctor showing up in kente.
 
2014-06-03 01:32:01 PM  
lamecomedian:

Okay, how about Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson?


Both of them were outspoken about politics and social issues after their athletic careers. Wouldn't be hard to find critics attacking them from both sides.
 
2014-06-03 01:34:52 PM  

Rik01: After receiving 50 honorary doctorates, I don't have a major problem with the lady calling herself a Doctor.

Though, in reality, if you didn't do the work, you can't legally do so. Most folks that I know of with honorary doctorates usually will list them as such on any business stationary or cards they use. If you got an honorary doctorate in medicine, you couldn't actually practice as a physician. You would not have the knowledge required.

As had been mentioned before, it wasn't exactly nice, necessary or even polite to mention that this lady's doctorates didn't count -- especially on the day of her funeral or within the mourning period.

IMO, it wasn't necessary to start a racist rant either mainly because racist rants from African-Americans have become far too common -- which means their effectiveness has diminished because folks get tired of reading them. Kind of like we know when certain news channels start urgently informing us of impending disasters, that they're going to be greatly exaggerated.
Or being warned of things which can cause Cancer, since everything, by now, apparently does.

The 'separate but equal' rule of thumb embraced by most African Americans tends to put a strain on relations. I know of no Middle Eastern physicians in practice who wear the traditional garb and turban of their homeland in American hospitals, but I do know of African American ones who show up fully dressed in 'traditional' African garb.

Again, the lady deserved her honorifics, her community chose to call her 'Dr.', she did a lot of good work and it was rude to defame her upon her burial by trying to down play her awards. It also wasn't the best thing to write a racist rant about in rebuttal.



By "her communicty" did you mean Americans or did you mean "the blacks", because I don't think Columbia University is a HBCU.
 
2014-06-03 01:34:55 PM  
I Browse

"Universally respected" was a poor choice of phrasing. I'm sure there were some people out there who even hated Mr. Rogers.

An unmitigated bastard. He ruled Make-Believe with an iron fist.

I guess what surprised me about the Maya Angelou backlash is that I didn't think people had strong negative feelings about her. She seemed fairly non-controversial to me. But I suppose there's no such thing as that anymore.

I have literally never read any of her work. So, honestly, I can't say whether I like it or not, and similarly, I have no idea why other people do or don't. From what some are saying, it's required reading in some American schools, so I guess that could negatively affect opinions, but beyond that...I have nada.
 
2014-06-03 01:35:11 PM  

Leonard Washington: I don't give a fark what they called people in the middle ages, you're not a doctor anymore. My dad is a doctor, nothing pissed me off more than some borderline competent to teach high school liberal arts professors insisting on me calling them doctors. You want to get called a doctor, get approved by the state to write a prescription.


Leonard Washington: You quit deserving to be called doctors the second someone else figured out how to help people better.


MDs write prescriptions for cures/treatments a team of PhDs spent decades developing.  Your MD didn't cure cancer, a whole crap load of PhDs did.

Do you also thank the waiter/waitress for the terrific job they personally did cooking your steak, while calling the chef in back a useless asshole?
 
2014-06-03 01:36:34 PM  
DROxINxTHExWIND:

Oh, I get it. Whatever you don't like is "low quality". That's pretty egotistical. And we thought Ms. Angelou had a big head.

I like plenty of stuff that's low-quality: Katy Perry, Taylor Swift.  Most of their stuff is fairly inoffensive and reasonably catchy.  I certainly wouldn't laud them the same way folks have lauded Maya Angelou.
 
2014-06-03 01:38:30 PM  

umad: CADMonkey79: stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?

Unfortunately, many people assign more value to proving one's ability to sit in a classroom for years while someone else's opinions are crammed into their heads then regurgitating it all back out in some bullshiat thesis, than actual real life achievements many people demand that one prove one's ability to a neutral third party rather than just taking one's word that one is qualified.

I've been wiring houses for years! I don't need to take some useless tests to prove that I know what I am doing. You'll just have to take my word for it and hope like hell that your house doesn't burn down around you while you sleep.


Who knew poetry could kill?  So what was your electrical thesis statement about?
 
2014-06-03 01:39:03 PM  

lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND:

Oh, I get it. Whatever you don't like is "low quality". That's pretty egotistical. And we thought Ms. Angelou had a big head.

I like plenty of stuff that's low-quality: Katy Perry, Taylor Swift.  Most of their stuff is fairly inoffensive and reasonably catchy.  I certainly wouldn't laud them the same way folks have lauded Maya Angelou.


So again, your beef is that people aren't doing things the way that you think they should. You have a right to like Katy Perry but its stupid for someone else to like Maya Angelou. What else do you think we should stop liking?
 
2014-06-03 01:40:16 PM  

lennavan: Leonard Washington: I don't give a fark what they called people in the middle ages, you're not a doctor anymore. My dad is a doctor, nothing pissed me off more than some borderline competent to teach high school liberal arts professors insisting on me calling them doctors. You want to get called a doctor, get approved by the state to write a prescription.

Leonard Washington: You quit deserving to be called doctors the second someone else figured out how to help people better.

MDs write prescriptions for cures/treatments a team of PhDs spent decades developing.  Your MD didn't cure cancer, a whole crap load of PhDs did.

Do you also thank the waiter/waitress for the terrific job they personally did cooking your steak, while calling the chef in back a useless asshole?


Ohsnap.jpg
 
2014-06-03 01:40:57 PM  

Kope: CADMonkey79: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

THIS!

Given that MD's appropriated the title from PhDs, Why do you preference them?
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_%28title%29#Origins


Because I don't live in Medieval Europe I suppose.
 
2014-06-03 01:41:21 PM  

CADMonkey79: kindms: stonicus: fireclown: FTFA:"To him and his ridiculousness, I say, "Oppenheimer, be for real." "

Well, the author does have her opponent firmly in the iron grip of logic.

The bottom line is pretty much if you don't actually earn a PhD or MD, you don't rate the honorific doctor.  An honorary doctorate means that the school really likes you, and that you are kinda awesome based on that, but it's not an official PhD/MD.  Angilou is wrong for calling herself Dr Angilou.

/go ahead.  I've been called racist by better looking people than YOU.

But in her field, she probably did more, wrote more, and knew more about poetry and literature than people who just sat in classes.  Her life experience shouldn't be discounted as if it didn't matter.  If it takes X number of hours learning literature to become a Doctor in it, and she has 10 times that amount from actually living it and doing it, then why shouldn't it count?

I have been working in IT for over 15 years. That doesn't make me a network engineer. It is a title given to people who have put in the academic hours and course study. She wasn't a PhD. She had more than enough time to get one. And it probably wouldn't have been all that difficult for her but she didn't put in the work to obtain the PhD. As such she should not have called herself Doctor no matter how much the woman at Salon wants to try to justify it. So Angelou was a jerk about certain things, like being called Dr when she wasn't one. Lots of artists are jerks, doesn't reduce the importance of their art.

Why wouldn't you be able to call yourself that ? With that much experience are you not allowed to get the same certificates?  I'm still trying to figure out why more actual architects and licensed engineers don't take more exception to any IT people calling themselves network "engineers" or "architects".


A lot... and I mean a LOT of what passes for expertise in the humanities is bluffing.  I've seen it up close, unfortunately.  One "big thinker" by the name of Baudrillard actually committed to print his belief that Walt Disney was in cryo-freeze somewhere... and one of my professors, in class, admitted to the same belief.

It was at exactly that point that I began to have my doubts about the humanities as a field.

Now there are a lot of very knowledgeable, very expert folks who really DO know there stuff, but so much of the current discourse is shaky and rests on a very selective view of the relevant facts... well, it's not a great field for intellectual integrity, let me tell you.

Anyway, if you're a big-shot poet celebrity you don't put yourself under the authority of some exam committee - you're already "made" it, so you have everything to lose and nothing to gain by being subjected to that kind of scrutiny.
 
2014-06-03 01:42:31 PM  

lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND: farkeruk: ikanreed: And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

I've read some of Maya Angelou's poems, and I think Hallmark would send them back. They're terrible. Clunkingly terrible. And she got away with it for her whole life because of people like you - people who would call someone a racist or sexist as soon as anyone criticised them.


Oh, so people bought and studied the writing of this one black woman because they were scared of being labelled racist? Well, how noble of you to be the first to fall on the sword for all of the wrongfully accused who WOULD stand up against this woman's tyranny if not for the protection given to her by guilty whites and blacks who play the race card.

Lots of people buy Justin Bieber's music, too.  Popularity is not an indication of quality.


Actually, you could make a case it's the only indication of quality.  Quality is subjective.  Except in a few gases of science, specifically geology where they rigidly define what quality means in terms of a mineral or gemstone.  But in the arts, it is totally subjective.  Popularity isn't a measure of some traits, like complexity.  The Star Wars Theme by John Williams is vastly more complex than When I Come Around by Green Day, but if more people like Green Day, then you could argue it is a more quality song.
 
2014-06-03 01:43:25 PM  

CheapEngineer: This thread is f%cking *full* of people confusing "fact" for "opinion",on both sides of this stupid f%cking argument. If you don;t like her, you don;t like her. If you love her, that's wonderful for you as well.

Neither position is "right or wrong", but still true to each person.


Correct.  No opinion can be called "wrong" if the topic is subjective.  If you think something is crap that an overwhelming number of people who have made it their life's work to study, understand, and appreciate find enormous value in, your opinion isn't "wrong", just "completely insignificant".

Feel free to shout it from the rooftops as loud as you like, though.  It's a fact that Maya Angelou will be remembered as one of the great American writers, regardless.
 
2014-06-03 01:43:56 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Oh, so people bought and studied the writing of this one black woman because they were scared of being labelled racist?


How did you deduce that from what I said?

As someone else said - Justin Bieber makes garbage. Some girls like it. But no-one hesitates to call Justin Bieber out for making garbage. No-one says that you're anti-Canadian for saying he makes garbage.

Well, how noble of you to be the first to fall on the sword for all of the wrongfully accused who WOULD stand up against this woman's tyranny if not for the protection given to her by guilty whites and blacks who play the race card.

When did I ever say her tyranny? It's nothing personal against her. I direct my wrath at the tyranny of people like you who try to shame people out of reasonable criticism by calling them racists because the work is by a black person.
 
2014-06-03 01:44:43 PM  

Kope: lamecomedian:
I think inventing the lightning rod/bifocals/a pretty rad stove, mapping the gulf stream, etc. outweighs writing Hallmark cards.

So, are you simply ignorant of her contribution to the body of liturature of the 20th century, the field in which she has been honored? Or are you that dismissive of all accomplished black women?

Her achievements in the context of her field are substantial.


I'm dismissive about her field.
 
2014-06-03 01:45:28 PM  

Z-clipped: CheapEngineer: This thread is f%cking *full* of people confusing "fact" for "opinion",on both sides of this stupid f%cking argument. If you don;t like her, you don;t like her. If you love her, that's wonderful for you as well.

Neither position is "right or wrong", but still true to each person.

Correct.  No opinion can be called "wrong" if the topic is subjective.  If you think something is crap that an overwhelming number of people who have made it their life's work to study, understand, and appreciate find enormous value in, your opinion isn't "wrong", just "completely insignificant".

Feel free to shout it from the rooftops as loud as you like, though.  It's a fact that Maya Angelou will be remembered as one of the great American writers, regardless.


In my opinion, I don't like her poetry, or poetry in general for that matter.  But, your statement IS a statement of fact: She will be remembered as one of the greats.
 
2014-06-03 01:45:36 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND:

Oh, I get it. Whatever you don't like is "low quality". That's pretty egotistical. And we thought Ms. Angelou had a big head.

I like plenty of stuff that's low-quality: Katy Perry, Taylor Swift.  Most of their stuff is fairly inoffensive and reasonably catchy.  I certainly wouldn't laud them the same way folks have lauded Maya Angelou.

So again, your beef is that people aren't doing things the way that you think they should. You have a right to like Katy Perry but its stupid for someone else to like Maya Angelou. What else do you think we should stop liking?


That's everyone's beef, all the time, everywhere.  Try being more specific to avoid making uselessly broad statements.

But I'm not up in arms or anything - I didn't write whatever article TFA was responding to.  All I did was say that I didn't think the woman's accomplishments amounted to a title.  You guys can do whatever you want, and I'll make little quips on the internet about it.  Seems like a pretty fair arrangement, and I won't think that you're idiots or lesser human beings or racists or whatever for having a different opinion.  We all win, right?
 
2014-06-03 01:48:55 PM  

stonicus: lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND: farkeruk: ikanreed: And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

I've read some of Maya Angelou's poems, and I think Hallmark would send them back. They're terrible. Clunkingly terrible. And she got away with it for her whole life because of people like you - people who would call someone a racist or sexist as soon as anyone criticised them.


Oh, so people bought and studied the writing of this one black woman because they were scared of being labelled racist? Well, how noble of you to be the first to fall on the sword for all of the wrongfully accused who WOULD stand up against this woman's tyranny if not for the protection given to her by guilty whites and blacks who play the race card.

Lots of people buy Justin Bieber's music, too.  Popularity is not an indication of quality.

Actually, you could make a case it's the only indication of quality.  Quality is subjective.  Except in a few gases of science, specifically geology where they rigidly define what quality means in terms of a mineral or gemstone.  But in the arts, it is totally subjective.  Popularity isn't a measure of some traits, like complexity.  The Star Wars Theme by John Williams is vastly more complex than When I Come Around by Green Day, but if more people like Green Day, then you could argue it is a more quality song.


Not at all.  It's (potentially) an objective and measurable gauge of quality, but if you're evaluating something, you can choose any criteria you want.  I mean, maybe Green Day is more popular because stores carry more Green Day albums than Star Wars soundtracks - that's a factor that skews the results, right?

If we agree upon a set of criteria before we judge, then our evaluative judgements aren't subjective.  Our criteria may be somewhat arbitrary, but all criteria are.
 
2014-06-03 01:49:14 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.


I don't understand the logic of this. A PhD is a doctorate. Why should the term be strictly limited to the medical profession?
 
2014-06-03 01:50:09 PM  

frunjer: pretentiousness is a way of life for some people... it demonstrates their sense of superiority.. or hides their feeling of inferiority.  Respect from someone directly knowledgeable of your character is one thing, but to demand some one show deference just because you're a twat is another.


Lena Horne had a famously regal demeanor that she adopted after she became famous. It grew out of the demeaning and racist treatment she experienced earlier in her life. She demanded and commanded respect. Women ... particularly African American women of a certain age ... do this sometimes as a way of protecting themselves from being bulldozed and as a way of making sure they aren't stripped of their dignity. It's the sort of thing, however, that gets them called "uppity."
 
2014-06-03 01:50:19 PM  
stonicus:

Feel free to shout it from the rooftops as loud as you like, though.  It's a fact that Maya Angelou will be remembered as one of the great American writers, regardless.

In my opinion, I don't like her poetry, or poetry in general for that matter.  But, your statement IS a statement of fact: She will be remembered as one of the greats.


A prediction about the future is not a fact.
 
2014-06-03 01:51:11 PM  

FLMountainMan: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Yep.  So is signing "Esq." (unless you really need to emphasize or clarify that you are writing the letter as a legal representative for someone)


Not exactly.  The general etiquette is to put your title after your name in handwritten signatures.  What kills me is people who insist on both in letterhead, business cards, email sigs, etc., ie. "Dr. Larry Fine, M.D." - and of course their manifold list of job descriptions, additional degrees, tech qualifications and whatever.  The unreadable 5-point type overkill is, on occasion, breathtaking.
 
2014-06-03 01:51:23 PM  

lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND: farkeruk: ikanreed: And here's the evidence of racism.  Maya Angelou's accomplishments reduced to "greeting cards".  That's why we know.  It's not the details of the tradition, it's how how far out of your way you go to minimize the accomplishments of any black woman.

I've read some of Maya Angelou's poems, and I think Hallmark would send them back. They're terrible. Clunkingly terrible. And she got away with it for her whole life because of people like you - people who would call someone a racist or sexist as soon as anyone criticised them.


Oh, so people bought and studied the writing of this one black woman because they were scared of being labelled racist? Well, how noble of you to be the first to fall on the sword for all of the wrongfully accused who WOULD stand up against this woman's tyranny if not for the protection given to her by guilty whites and blacks who play the race card.

Lots of people buy Justin Bieber's music, too.  Popularity is not an indication of quality.

Actually, you could make a case it's the only indication of quality.  Quality is subjective.  Except in a few gases of science, specifically geology where they rigidly define what quality means in terms of a mineral or gemstone.  But in the arts, it is totally subjective.  Popularity isn't a measure of some traits, like complexity.  The Star Wars Theme by John Williams is vastly more complex than When I Come Around by Green Day, but if more people like Green Day, then you could argue it is a more quality song.

Not at all.  It's (potentially) an objective and measurable gauge of quality, but if you're evaluating something, you can choose any criteria you want.  I mean, maybe Green Day is more popular because stores carry more Green Day albums than Star Wars soundtracks - that's a factor that skews the results, right?

If we agree upon a set of criteria before we judge, then our evaluative judgements aren't subjective.  Our criteria may be somewhat ...


Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?
 
2014-06-03 01:51:37 PM  

someonelse: frunjer: pretentiousness is a way of life for some people... it demonstrates their sense of superiority.. or hides their feeling of inferiority.  Respect from someone directly knowledgeable of your character is one thing, but to demand some one show deference just because you're a twat is another.

Lena Horne had a famously regal demeanor that she adopted after she became famous. It grew out of the demeaning and racist treatment she experienced earlier in her life. She demanded and commanded respect. Women ... particularly African American women of a certain age ... do this sometimes as a way of protecting themselves from being bulldozed and as a way of making sure they aren't stripped of their dignity. It's the sort of thing, however, that gets them called "uppity."


Now that is an interesting, thoughtful, and compelling point in favor of her use of the title.
 
2014-06-03 01:52:40 PM  

lamecomedian: stonicus:

Feel free to shout it from the rooftops as loud as you like, though.  It's a fact that Maya Angelou will be remembered as one of the great American writers, regardless.

In my opinion, I don't like her poetry, or poetry in general for that matter.  But, your statement IS a statement of fact: She will be remembered as one of the greats.

A prediction about the future is not a fact.


You are correct... All I can say is that as of right now she is thought of as one of the greats, and most likely, for some time to come she will be as well.  Can't say for how long though.
 
2014-06-03 01:54:09 PM  

I Browse: Kope:

Seriously - you can name the most innocuous, nicest, classiest famous, accomplished black person you can, and someone out there is trying to tear them down.


Sadly, you're probably right. I've been sitting here for like five minutes trying to think of another famous black person who would be universally respected. I dunno...Crispus Attucks maybe?



Can you think of a universally respected person of any ethnicity? Any person at all that doesn't have someone out there tearing them down?
 
2014-06-03 01:55:49 PM  
As a pharmacist (with a clinical doctorate) who advises "real" doctors on treatment options, and intercepts and corrects their errors (and those of their nurses, assistants and patients) daily, I'm getting a kick out of the pretentiousness of everyone.
 
2014-06-03 01:55:52 PM  

lamecomedian: If we agree upon a set of criteria before we judge, then our evaluative judgements aren't subjective. Our criteria may be somewhat arbitrary, but all criteria are.


Which is one of the effects of academia, for better or worse.  Consistency of product.  You are being guided and judged by the establishment who was in turn guided and judged by those before them.  This tends, TENDS, to promote a certain uniformity throughout the establishment of any given field.  The wackos may be smart, but they will have to pursue their interests outside of academe.
 
2014-06-03 01:56:57 PM  

Rik01: IMO, it wasn't necessary to start a racist rant either mainly because racist rants from African-Americans have become far too common -- which means their effectiveness has diminished because folks get tired of reading them.

Rik01: Soon, arrests of black people started filling the news. Along came Ebonics, followed by Kwanzaa and then 'Strong Black Women'. I watched a black physician in an ER dress in African clothing and spout racist attitudes with impunity. Black co-workers in jobs I had, screamed racism over nearly anything, including being required to do jobs whites did. Old black men in Black communities, once respected for their age and wisdom became targets of younger black men, who ridiculed them. The family dynamic basically reversed. I started seeing welfare folks sporting $500 cars with $4000 worth of custom rims and $5000 booming stereo systems. When I worked in the health care field, I caught more black employees stealing company supplies than I had ever known whites do. I also worked with well educated nurses and administrators who were black and rabidly racist. Bring this up, and YOU were automatically racist.


Step off, people. We have a man who lived through the triple terror of Ebonics, Kwanzaa and 'Strong Black Women' in scare quotes. It can't be his fault that people keep singling him out for being racist.

Kwanzaa.  Every year it's like a combined slavery, Trail of Tears, Spanish Inquisition, and Benghazi for white people, except it can also include the oppression of people wearing African clothing.
 
2014-06-03 01:57:25 PM  

stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?


Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).

And I think I get your implied point - "lyrical complexity" might be difficult to measure with the same precision as, say, the decibel level of a song, but we can pretty clearly make some measurements.  "I kissed a girl and I liked it" is not as complex as "I can't remember if I cried when I read about his widowed bride, but something touched me deep inside the day the music died."

As with most human value judgements, what matters is consistency, honesty, and belief - that's what turns the arbitrary into the not-quite-arbitrary.
 
2014-06-03 01:57:37 PM  

lennavan: Leonard Washington: I don't give a fark what they called people in the middle ages, you're not a doctor anymore. My dad is a doctor, nothing pissed me off more than some borderline competent to teach high school liberal arts professors insisting on me calling them doctors. You want to get called a doctor, get approved by the state to write a prescription.

Leonard Washington: You quit deserving to be called doctors the second someone else figured out how to help people better.

MDs write prescriptions for cures/treatments a team of PhDs spent decades developing.  Your MD didn't cure cancer, a whole crap load of PhDs did.

Do you also thank the waiter/waitress for the terrific job they personally did cooking your steak, while calling the chef in back a useless asshole?


MDs do a whole lot more than write prescriptions

And you're suggesting that the cook should be thanked for the excellent service...
 
2014-06-03 01:57:40 PM  

stonicus: Actually, you could make a case it's the only indication of quality.


"Quantity has a quality all of it's own"   -- Joseph Stalin (attributed)
 
2014-06-03 01:59:11 PM  

lamecomedian: stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?

Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).


Ok, I choose "popularity".
 
2014-06-03 02:01:51 PM  

stonicus: ikanreed: I don't know why I bother.

I don't know either.  You're not making the slightest bit of sense.  Ooops, I must be racist.


Oh look, that guy accused someone of being racist, he must use that as an arbitrary attack and certainly isn't asking for a tiny bit of reflection on the count of actual racists in the vain hope that any of them ever reconsider.

I wouldn't be so annoyed about it if everyone weren't so blase about the accusation.  Like... "Racism isn't a real thing, jeez calm down about one histories major sources of injustice, guy."

The structure of his argument is specifically one steeped in racism.
 
2014-06-03 02:04:07 PM  

stonicus: In your mind, the ONLY reason someone doesn't like Maya Angelou's poetry is because they are racist.


Liking something, and recognizing that it has value are entirely different.  There are lots of reasons someone might not enjoy Maya Angelou's writing.  There are very few reasons to make the claim that her writing doesn't have the literary value that is commonly attributed to it.

You* might be a racist who wants to tear down black folks.  You might be young, obnoxious, and desperately trying to be edgy and different.  You might be an ignorant, poorly-read anti-snob, who thinks that all opinions are of equal merit and importance.  Or, you might be a highly educated, well-read literary expert who is able to articulate criticisms which are valid in the face of the overwhelming praise and adulation that her writing has received.  I'm pretty sure that none of the critics in this thread fall into the last category.

*not you personally
 
2014-06-03 02:07:35 PM  
Here's a simpler explanation:

If you're not going to raise your hand the next time a pilot on the flight you're on asks if there are any doctors available to help with an emergency, then I'm not going to call you one either.
 
2014-06-03 02:08:05 PM  

Pharmdawg: As a pharmacist (with a clinical doctorate) who advises "real" doctors on treatment options, and intercepts and corrects their errors (and those of their nurses, assistants and patients) daily, I'm getting a kick out of the pretentiousness of everyone.


So on a day-to-day basis while working with MDs and other medical professionals, do you refer to yourself as Dr. Pharmdog?  Just curious how that works.

While in nursing school one of my wife's professors was getting her doctorate in nursing.  I just can't imagine being in the medical profession and always having to add, "but not an MD" every time you are introduced.
 
2014-06-03 02:08:19 PM  

Z-clipped: stonicus: In your mind, the ONLY reason someone doesn't like Maya Angelou's poetry is because they are racist.

Liking something, and recognizing that it has value are entirely different.  There are lots of reasons someone might not enjoy Maya Angelou's writing.  There are very few reasons to make the claim that her writing doesn't have the literary value that is commonly attributed to it.

You* might be a racist who wants to tear down black folks.  You might be young, obnoxious, and desperately trying to be edgy and different.  You might be an ignorant, poorly-read anti-snob, who thinks that all opinions are of equal merit and importance.  Or, you might be a highly educated, well-read literary expert who is able to articulate criticisms which are valid in the face of the overwhelming praise and adulation that her writing has received.  I'm pretty sure that none of the critics in this thread fall into the last category.

*not you personally


I've got an MA in English lit - does that count?
 
2014-06-03 02:08:47 PM  

lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND: lamecomedian: DROxINxTHExWIND:

Oh, I get it. Whatever you don't like is "low quality". That's pretty egotistical. And we thought Ms. Angelou had a big head.

I like plenty of stuff that's low-quality: Katy Perry, Taylor Swift.  Most of their stuff is fairly inoffensive and reasonably catchy.  I certainly wouldn't laud them the same way folks have lauded Maya Angelou.

So again, your beef is that people aren't doing things the way that you think they should. You have a right to like Katy Perry but its stupid for someone else to like Maya Angelou. What else do you think we should stop liking?

That's everyone's beef, all the time, everywhere.  Try being more specific to avoid making uselessly broad statements.

But I'm not up in arms or anything - I didn't write whatever article TFA was responding to.  All I did was say that I didn't think the woman's accomplishments amounted to a title.  You guys can do whatever you want, and I'll make little quips on the internet about it.  Seems like a pretty fair arrangement, and I won't think that you're idiots or lesser human beings or racists or whatever for having a different opinion.  We all win, right?


Sounds fair to me.
 
2014-06-03 02:09:42 PM  

Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.


You do know that MD's were the ones that were late to the "Doctor" party, right? They were known as Physicians and Surgeons until relatively recently. Most medical societies, such as the AMA, still refer to their members as physicians and not doctors.

In any case, the actual usage of Dr. for a PhD has a little more etiquette. If you're putting your name to an official piece of correspondence that relies on your educational station, then you should use the honorific. If you're putting your name to something that doesn't rely on your degree, then you don't. For example, people who write academic research papers (in my field, at least) don't use the honorific, which is the most scholarly thing they do. But they will use it when they're doing day-to-day departmental business, such as certifying students and whatnot. You don't use your degree to claim a position of superiority or correctness, but you can and should use it claim a position of authority.

In another vein, there are differences between academic and non-academic environments. If you are introducing a PhD in a non-academic or public environment, and their degree bears some relevance to whatever is going on, it's polite and practical to let the audience know that this person has some authority. Conversely, it's silly to introduce someone with a PhD as such to another crowd of PhDs, especially when they're giving technical talks that are expected to stand on their own merit. Of course, it's a major faux pas for anyone to stand up and say, "By the way, I have a doctorate! You forgot to mention!", but they can and do say things like, "I've been doing research in this field for ten years now."
 
2014-06-03 02:10:26 PM  
give me doughnuts:


Can you think of a universally respected person of any ethnicity? Any person at all that doesn't have someone out there tearing them down?

Nope, I can't. But we live in the "everything sucks, everyone's overrated" era, so I guess that's to be expected.
 
2014-06-03 02:10:42 PM  

stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?

Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).

Ok, I choose "popularity".


Totally legit.  How do you factor in changes over time?
 
2014-06-03 02:11:28 PM  

Z-clipped: You* might be a racist who wants to tear down black folks. You might be young, obnoxious, and desperately trying to be edgy and different. You might be an ignorant, poorly-read anti-snob, who thinks that all opinions are of equal merit and importance. Or, you might be a highly educated, well-read literary expert who is able to articulate criticisms which are valid in the face of the overwhelming praise and adulation that her writing has received. I'm pretty sure that none of the critics in this thread fall into the last category.


I can't help but notice that you led with racist.
 
2014-06-03 02:12:03 PM  

Z-clipped: stonicus: In your mind, the ONLY reason someone doesn't like Maya Angelou's poetry is because they are racist.

Liking something, and recognizing that it has value are entirely different.


^^This!
I personally agree with the people who don't like her writing. I find it boring and generally dislike reading her. However, I understand why her writing is important and what other people see in it. I feel the same way, btw, about folks like Kate Chopin.

But I would never suggest that she doesn't deserve the praise she has received, including be granted numerous honorary doctorates, and being referred to as "Doctor" by the university at which she taught:

http://news.wfu.edu/2014/06/02/media-advisory-memorial-service-arran ge ments-for-dr-maya-angelou/

And frankly, I think that if her employer, a university as respected as Wake Forest, is going to refer to her as "Doctor" then I really see no real space to argue against it beyond pure hubris on the part of those who think what they have to say in anyway raises to the same level of authority.
 
2014-06-03 02:13:17 PM  

ikanreed: stonicus: ikanreed: I don't know why I bother.

I don't know either.  You're not making the slightest bit of sense.  Ooops, I must be racist.

Oh look, that guy accused someone of being racist, he must use that as an arbitrary attack and certainly isn't asking for a tiny bit of reflection on the count of actual racists in the vain hope that any of them ever reconsider.

I wouldn't be so annoyed about it if everyone weren't so blase about the accusation.  Like... "Racism isn't a real thing, jeez calm down about one histories major sources of injustice, guy."

The structure of his argument is specifically one steeped in racism.


Oh, good.  I was afraid you'd left to use your time to actually help the people you that you imply you care about so much.
 
2014-06-03 02:14:05 PM  

lamecomedian: A prediction about the future is not a fact.


You're going to die someday.  Gravity will continue to make objects fall toward the center of the earth today.  Ice will melt in a hot cup of tea.

Are these facts, or opinion?  Just trying to set the bar for this silly semantic distinction you're trying to make.
 
2014-06-03 02:14:54 PM  

lamecomedian: All I did was say that I didn't think the woman's accomplishments amounted to a title.


She has a Pulitzer, three Grammys, a Tony, the National Medal of Arts, and a pile of other awards.  She wrote seven books (plus several children's books), published hundreds of poems, and wrote eight plays.  She's been an actress, a screenwriter, and a director.  Her works are part of university curricula around the world.

She's been successful in all of these endeavors, starting in the 1960s when America was even more racist.  Why her, then?  Did America just pick a woman of color at random to pile awards on?
 
2014-06-03 02:15:25 PM  

lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?

Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).

Ok, I choose "popularity".

Totally legit.  How do you factor in changes over time?


I just go by total record sales and let the winner of "quality" be dynamic and change over time.  So a song may have the highest quality one month, then not for a year, then take it back again at a later date.  And we've now just defined quality to be the exact opposite of what you stated earlier.
 
2014-06-03 02:15:58 PM  

fireclown: I can't help but notice that you led with racist.


It was reasonable, given that it was central in the context of the post I was replying to.
 
2014-06-03 02:16:08 PM  

ikanreed: stonicus: ikanreed: I don't know why I bother.

I don't know either.  You're not making the slightest bit of sense.  Ooops, I must be racist.

Oh look, that guy accused someone of being racist, he must use that as an arbitrary attack and certainly isn't asking for a tiny bit of reflection on the count of actual racists in the vain hope that any of them ever reconsider.

I wouldn't be so annoyed about it if everyone weren't so blase about the accusation.  Like... "Racism isn't a real thing, jeez calm down about one histories major sources of injustice, guy."

The structure of his argument is specifically one steeped in racism.


I don't think Mike Tyson was a very good boxer.  Is that racist?
 
2014-06-03 02:17:18 PM  

chimp_ninja: lamecomedian: All I did was say that I didn't think the woman's accomplishments amounted to a title.

She has a Pulitzer, three Grammys, a Tony, the National Medal of Arts, and a pile of other awards.  She wrote seven books (plus several children's books), published hundreds of poems, and wrote eight plays.  She's been an actress, a screenwriter, and a director.  Her works are part of university curricula around the world.

She's been successful in all of these endeavors, starting in the 1960s when America was even more racist.  Why her, then?  Did America just pick a woman of color at random to pile awards on?


If you listen to any of the opponnants of affirmative action programs, they'll insist that is precisely what we did.
 
2014-06-03 02:17:51 PM  

lamecomedian: Oh, good. I was afraid you'd left to use your time to actually help the people you that you imply you care about so much.


Ah the good ol' "I can't be racist, because [ad-hominem]".  Let's say I am a tremendous racist.  Do you still want to be?
 
2014-06-03 02:19:15 PM  
Rex Talionis:
Ben Franklin was styled as Dr. Franklin after he received an honorary doctorate from the College of William and Mary. Of course, you recall, Franklin had little formal secondary education and was primarily a printer's apprentice during his adolescence. He was given the honorary doctorate because of his contributions to science and learning. Is Maya Angelou really that different? Is she somehow not worthy of the same honor for her contributions to literature?

Since the historical root of the title Doctor was that the person had been granted a license to teach in a university, and unlike most recipients of Honorary Doctorates, Maya Angelou was in fact a university professor, I'd say she is worthy of the honor.   I think that some of the farkers here who claim that only medical doctors are entitled to the use of the honorific err when they rely on Miss Manners and etiquette mavens on matters of academic titles.  Miss Manners may be correct in her assessment of social norms in polite society in the US, but it is a mistake to conflate that with academic tradition or practices outside the US.  In Germany, for example, all PhD's as well as MD's are referred to as "Herr Doktor" socially as well as academically. The German for medical doctor is "Artz" while the title is "Doktor" English  doesn't make that distinction which contributes to our confusion.  Professional doctorates- M.D., D.O., D.D.S. and J.D. are inventions of the late 20th century. Previously persons with degrees in medicine, dentistry and law were awarded Bachelor's degrees, but since those degrees required additional study beyond that required for a bachelor's degree, and were often awarded to persons already holding a bachelor's degree, schools wished to acknowledge that by awarding doctorates for the first professional degree instead of the traditional bachelor's degree.  My professor of Constitutional law was indeed a Doctor- he held both a BA in law as well as an S.J.D. a research doctorate in law.  To assert that because he was not a physician.he was not entitled to the title Doctor is quite frankly silly, since unlike an M.D. he had earned both the first professional degree and an advanced professional degree that required  him to demonstrate he had advanced the field of knowledge he studied.
 
2014-06-03 02:19:52 PM  
Z-clipped: lamecomedian: A prediction about the future is not a fact.

You're going to die someday.  Gravity will continue to make objects fall toward the center of the earth today.  Ice will melt in a hot cup of tea.

Are these facts, or opinion?  Just trying to set the bar for this silly semantic distinction you're trying to make.


These are true by definition; they are not predictions.  It's the same thing as saying "ice melts in a hot cup of tea," "human beings are mortal" or "gravity pulls objects to the center of the earth."

Saying that a person will be remembered in the future as fondly as she currently is remembered IS a prediction; a lot of people thought Rudyard Kipling was awesome back in the day, but his reputation has suffered since then.
 
2014-06-03 02:21:30 PM  

stonicus: I don't think Mike Tyson was a very good boxer. Is that racist?


no.  It's foolish. That dude was one of the all time greats.   Besides, he has an honorary PhD in Humane Letters, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Tyson. which makes him a scholar as well,
 
2014-06-03 02:22:23 PM  

stonicus: I don't think Mike Tyson was a very good boxer. Is that racist?


It's denial of fact, but no, it isn't.  Arguing that while accepting John Corbett as amazing, might give off the stink, though.
 
2014-06-03 02:22:54 PM  

doubled99: Wow. What a stupid waste of an article.
No, she's not a real doctor. There isn't even a decent argument and anyway she's dead.


Her employer, a university, saw fit to grant her that honorific.  It basically said "your life's work is your thesis and we have approved it".  Their opinion counts more than a bunch of morons in the internet does.

Once the first dozen or so major universities and colleges decide you're worthy of a doctorate, and it is in the field in which you ply your trade as an academic, then yeah, I think you can claim it pretty fairly.
 
2014-06-03 02:22:56 PM  

IrishBlunder: FLMountainMan: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

Yep.  So is signing "Esq." (unless you really need to emphasize or clarify that you are writing the letter as a legal representative for someone)

Not exactly.  The general etiquette is to put your title after your name in handwritten signatures.  What kills me is people who insist on both in letterhead, business cards, email sigs, etc., ie. "Dr. Larry Fine, M.D." - and of course their manifold list of job descriptions, additional degrees, tech qualifications and whatever.  The unreadable 5-point type overkill is, on occasion, breathtaking.


I've never heard the handwritten signatures thing.  Ever.  I have heard the "only other people should refer to you as esquire" thing.  In my own experience, I use the title about once a week.  NCSB -  I work for the government, practiced for the gov't for about 18 months and then got promoted out of the general counsel's office and into an executive position.  This being Florida state government, we are, of course,   understaffed very lean and efficient, so about once a week I have to draft up a legal document because the OGC is swamped. I refer to myself as esquire in these documents so that it's clear that I am, for the purposes of that document, representing the opinion of the general counsel's office.  I realize it's an artifice of my own design, but it works for me.
 
2014-06-03 02:22:57 PM  
stonicus:

I don't think Mike Tyson was a very good boxer.  Is that racist?

If you back it up with something like: he doesn't block well, he doesn't move his feet well. The only reason he wins so many fights is because he's throws such a heavy punch that it destroys most people -- but as soon as he ran into someone who could hit just as hard AND move he lost . .  then "no." If you think he's not a very good boxer because you don't like him, then maybe depending on why you don't like him.

But here's the thing: Thinking Angelou is not a very good poet simply because you don't like her poetry is sort of like saying you don't think Tyson is a good boxer just because you don't like Tyson. It is an insubstantiated opinion that demonstrates no understanding of what being a good boxer means.

And here's where it gets tricky: those who's expertise revolves around understanding what makes for good literature have spoken with near unaninimity in agreement that Angelou is a quality writer who is socially important. Which is vastly different from the Tyson parrallel because numerous boxing experts said from day one that Tyson was a bruiser who lacked many skills normally associated with quality boxers, but his strength and power made him nearly unbeatable. The difference of course being that Angelou didn't have to win some knock-out poetry reading contest in order to succeed, and Tyson didn't have to impress his peers. That difference is critical to the entire discussion and attempting to bypass it misses what is essential to the discussion.
 
2014-06-03 02:23:35 PM  

ikanreed: stonicus: I don't think Mike Tyson was a very good boxer. Is that racist?

It's denial of fact, but no, it isn't.  Arguing that while accepting John Corbett as amazing, might give off the stink, though.


So, saying I don't respect Mike Tyson's skills as a boxer isn't racist.  But saying I don't respect Maya Angelou's skills as a poet is.  You are a confusing person.
 
2014-06-03 02:23:37 PM  

stonicus: ikanreed: stonicus: ikanreed: I don't know why I bother.

I don't know either.  You're not making the slightest bit of sense.  Ooops, I must be racist.

Oh look, that guy accused someone of being racist, he must use that as an arbitrary attack and certainly isn't asking for a tiny bit of reflection on the count of actual racists in the vain hope that any of them ever reconsider.

I wouldn't be so annoyed about it if everyone weren't so blase about the accusation.  Like... "Racism isn't a real thing, jeez calm down about one histories major sources of injustice, guy."

The structure of his argument is specifically one steeped in racism.

I don't think Mike Tyson was a very good boxer.  Is that racist?



Well, he did squander his resistance for a pocketful of mumbles.
 
2014-06-03 02:24:16 PM  

lamecomedian: Not at all.  It's (potentially) an objective and measurable gauge of quality, but if you're evaluating something, you can choose any criteria you want.  I mean, maybe Green Day is more popular because stores carry more Green Day albums than Star Wars soundtracks - that's a factor that skews the results, right?


It's why "popularity" is a really tricky thing.

Music, movies and books can all sell in huge numbers, but sometimes it's quite fleeting. Sometimes it's about promotion over word-of-mouth, and the heavily promoted stuff fades fast, while the word-of-mouth stuff grows. And some work fits a particular time, or has novelty value, but loses its sheen over time. I re-watched The Artist the other day, and it's still OK, but it's a novelty movie. The Descendants and Hugo are better movies of the Oscar nominees. And according to 2 friends that watch even more movies than me, I should really watch the Iranian film A Separation which they said was incredible.
 
2014-06-03 02:25:28 PM  

lamecomedian: I've got an MA in English lit - does that count?


Well, it's a start.  Have you made any intelligent criticisms in this thread?

Her poetry is weak, treacly, greeting-card caliber pap.

Ahem. OK.  Any idea why so many respected scholars and writers would find enormous value in her work then?
 
2014-06-03 02:25:31 PM  

Z-clipped: stonicus: In your mind, the ONLY reason someone doesn't like Maya Angelou's poetry is because they are racist.

Liking something, and recognizing that it has value are entirely different.  There are lots of reasons someone might not enjoy Maya Angelou's writing.  There are very few reasons to make the claim that her writing doesn't have the literary value that is commonly attributed to it.

You* might be a racist who wants to tear down black folks.  You might be young, obnoxious, and desperately trying to be edgy and different.  You might be an ignorant, poorly-read anti-snob, who thinks that all opinions are of equal merit and importance.  Or, you might be a highly educated, well-read literary expert who is able to articulate criticisms which are valid in the face of the overwhelming praise and adulation that her writing has received.  I'm pretty sure that none of the critics in this thread fall into the last category.

*not you personally


Seriously?

She sucks.  She's an awful poet.  Lots of people have said so.  That there is some kind of critical consensus that she's actually a great writer that a few of us are vainly fighting against is nonsense.  She's popular among people who don't know any better.  So is Thomas Kinkaid.

Here's a nice quote from an article praising her:

Angelou was also a prolific and widely-read poet, and her poetry has often been lauded more for its depictions of black beauty, the strength of women, and the human spirit; criticizing the Vietnam War; demanding social justice for all-than for its poetic virtue.

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/bio/maya-angelou

That's the nicest thing I think anyone could say about her poetry.
 
2014-06-03 02:25:56 PM  

ikanreed: lamecomedian: Oh, good. I was afraid you'd left to use your time to actually help the people you that you imply you care about so much.

Ah the good ol' "I can't be racist, because [ad-hominem]".  Let's say I am a tremendous racist.  Do you still want to be?


I think the statement "I can't be racist, because I treat everyone with the same respect regardless of their race" actually is a legitimate defense.

You'll note I'm not actual calling you a racist.  I'm implying that your "social consciousness" is just a fashionable trend that allows you gain social standing and feel good about yourself.  Otherwise, you would value aiding poor minorities over arguing about the title of a tremendously successful person of color who is dead.
 
2014-06-03 02:27:05 PM  

chimp_ninja: lamecomedian: All I did was say that I didn't think the woman's accomplishments amounted to a title.

She has a Pulitzer, three Grammys, a Tony, the National Medal of Arts, and a pile of other awards.  She wrote seven books (plus several children's books), published hundreds of poems, and wrote eight plays.  She's been an actress, a screenwriter, and a director.  Her works are part of university curricula around the world.

She's been successful in all of these endeavors, starting in the 1960s when America was even more racist.  Why her, then?  Did America just pick a woman of color at random to pile awards on?


So what?  None of those things equals "met the requirements for a terminal degree (doctorate)."

Which is why she's received HONORARY degrees--none of those universities would put their reputations on the line to grant her an actual doctorate based on life experience, that just doesn't happen.
 
2014-06-03 02:27:19 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I don't understand the logic of this. A PhD is a doctorate. Why should the term be strictly limited to the medical profession?


It shouldn't, and people who insist so don't know their history.

Most doctors were called Physicians until relatively recently (in the historical timescale). As I understand the story, it used to be that medical schools trained physicians, and the teachers and researchers at medical schools were Doctors of Medicine (the from the latin root Teacher of Medicine) much in the same way that most fields today use the term "Doctor" to denote the terminal research degree.

At some point, credential inflation happened, and the medical professionals wanted to call themselves medical doctors, and that became the norm. In the United States today, the term MD is a terminal professional degree, but is not a research degree. There are people who get research degrees in medicine, and a lot of those people are put in the somewhat silly position of being an MD-PhD, which you might expand to "Doctor of Medicine and Doctor of the Philosophy of Medicine".

It's goofy, and what you call people in the end doesn't mean all that much, but that's what it is.
 
2014-06-03 02:28:18 PM  

Snarfangel: Well, he did squander his resistance for a pocketful of mumbles.


Such are promises.
 
2014-06-03 02:28:42 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Marcus Aurelius: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

^ This.  If you have a PhD and insist on being called "doctor", you are most likely a complete moron that wishes they were actually intelligent.

Yeah, what does Neil DeGrasse Tyson know anyway?


I have a PhD and use Dr when I'm at professional meetings, or teaching. Or, if I feel like it just for the hell of it every once in a while. After all, I earned it. I don't insist on it, although I have that right.

I'm also a minister, I got my certificate in the mail with a denomination I don't recall the name of offhand. Calling myself Reverend would be an insult to real men of the cloth, most of whom work very hard to improve the lot of their fellow men.

Same thing with Angelou. An honorary PhD is nothing, and to use the title Dr. is an insult to anyone who actually spent years of their lives working very hard for that degree.

/Of course, she has more claim to the title of "Dr", than she does "poet"
 
2014-06-03 02:28:54 PM  
Timmy the Tumor:

Which is why she's received HONORARY degrees--none of those universities would put their reputations on the line to grant her an actual doctorate based on life experience, that just doesn't happen.

That doesn't happen because of accredidation rules, not because they dispute her achievements warrant an actual degree. Wake Forest referred to her as "Doctor." And they knew exactly what they were saying in doing that.
 
2014-06-03 02:29:22 PM  

stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?

Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).

Ok, I choose "popularity".

Totally legit.  How do you factor in changes over time?

I just go by total record sales and let the winner of "quality" be dynamic and change over time.  So a song may have the highest quality one month, then not for a year, then take it back again at a later date.  And we've now just defined quality to be the exact opposite of what you stated earlier.


Unless/until I say "I think your criteria are inappropriate" and propose a new set.  And then we do the dance all over again.

Also, your definition seems to imply that quality is *only* relative - that is, it's only "better" or "worse" than other items, not merely "good" or "bad" in isolation.  That seems... strange.
 
2014-06-03 02:30:34 PM  

Kope: Timmy the Tumor:

Which is why she's received HONORARY degrees--none of those universities would put their reputations on the line to grant her an actual doctorate based on life experience, that just doesn't happen.

That doesn't happen because of accredidation rules, not because they dispute her achievements warrant an actual degree. Wake Forest referred to her as "Doctor." And they knew exactly what they were saying in doing that.


They were saying "you're one of the cool kids".
 
2014-06-03 02:30:35 PM  

stonicus: So, saying I don't respect Mike Tyson's skills as a boxer isn't racist. But saying I don't respect Maya Angelou's skills as a poet is. You are a confusing person.


Re-read.  I made it clear, I was specifically only calling the person who defended that idea in the context of Franklin somehow being different from Angelou is deserving a distinction.  That wasn't you.  I never called you racist, and you're being tremendously defensive over someone elses' easily reconsidered position.

You took that accusation(that in the context of argument presented was reasonable to conclude was racist) as me being willing to drop the charge willy-nilly.
 
2014-06-03 02:30:51 PM  

Timmy the Tumor: chimp_ninja: lamecomedian: All I did was say that I didn't think the woman's accomplishments amounted to a title.

She has a Pulitzer, three Grammys, a Tony, the National Medal of Arts, and a pile of other awards.  She wrote seven books (plus several children's books), published hundreds of poems, and wrote eight plays.  She's been an actress, a screenwriter, and a director.  Her works are part of university curricula around the world.

She's been successful in all of these endeavors, starting in the 1960s when America was even more racist.  Why her, then?  Did America just pick a woman of color at random to pile awards on?


Um, Yes, I think that's the general idea.
 
2014-06-03 02:31:05 PM  

lamecomedian: Otherwise, you would value aiding poor minorities over arguing about the title of a tremendously successful person of color who is dead.


What's to say ikanreed doesn't value aiding poor minorities?
They are not obliged, if so, to avoid dithering arguments in Fark threads in their recreation time in favor of working toward a nobler cause every waking moment. Unless you're Peter Singer, in which case fark you.
 
2014-06-03 02:32:29 PM  
Her employer, a university, saw fit to grant her that honorific.  It basically said "your life's work is your thesis and we have approved it".  Their opinion counts more than a bunch of morons in the internet does.
Once the first dozen or so major universities and colleges decide you're worthy of a doctorate, and it is in the field in which you ply your trade as an academic, then yeah, I think you can claim it pretty fairly.


It's an "honorary" title. As in a nice gesture to show respect. Don't take things so literally.
 
2014-06-03 02:33:09 PM  

enemy of the state: Timmy the Tumor: chimp_ninja: lamecomedian: All I did was say that I didn't think the woman's accomplishments amounted to a title.

She has a Pulitzer, three Grammys, a Tony, the National Medal of Arts, and a pile of other awards.  She wrote seven books (plus several children's books), published hundreds of poems, and wrote eight plays.  She's been an actress, a screenwriter, and a director.  Her works are part of university curricula around the world.

She's been successful in all of these endeavors, starting in the 1960s when America was even more racist.  Why her, then?  Did America just pick a woman of color at random to pile awards on?

Um, Yes, I think that's the general idea.



She's under there somewhere.
woodbridgeschool.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2014-06-03 02:34:10 PM  

Fubini: Sybarite: Every use of Dr. before you're name when you are not an M.D. is pretentious.

You do know that MD's were the ones that were late to the "Doctor" party, right? They were known as Physicians and Surgeons until relatively recently. Most medical societies, such as the AMA, still refer to their members as physicians and not doctors.

In any case, the actual usage of Dr. for a PhD has a little more etiquette. If you're putting your name to an official piece of correspondence that relies on your educational station, then you should use the honorific. If you're putting your name to something that doesn't rely on your degree, then you don't. For example, people who write academic research papers (in my field, at least) don't use the honorific, which is the most scholarly thing they do. But they will use it when they're doing day-to-day departmental business, such as certifying students and whatnot. You don't use your degree to claim a position of superiority or correctness, but you can and should use it claim a position of authority.

In another vein, there are differences between academic and non-academic environments. If you are introducing a PhD in a non-academic or public environment, and their degree bears some relevance to whatever is going on, it's polite and practical to let the audience know that this person has some authority. Conversely, it's silly to introduce someone with a PhD as such to another crowd of PhDs, especially when they're giving technical talks that are expected to stand on their own merit. Of course, it's a major faux pas for anyone to stand up and say, "By the way, I have a doctorate! You forgot to mention!", but they can and do say things like, "I've been doing research in this field for ten years now."


This sums it up very well.
 
2014-06-03 02:34:18 PM  

stonicus: AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Why is this even a debate?  It's very simple.  If you can't prescribe medicine, you're not a doctor.

The original use of the term Doctor means you were considered well enough educated in an academic field to teach it.  That's all.  It is not exclusive to the medical profession.


Only licensed "Physicians" can prescribe pharmaceuticals

/ technically not true, depending on jurisdiction
// just trying to clarify that doctor and physician are different
/// don't actually care too much - just enough to comment
 
2014-06-03 02:34:28 PM  

lamecomedian: These are true by definition; they are not predictions.


Incorrect.  They are predictions which are assumed to be true based upon past experience for expedience.  Gravity may cease to work tomorrow. Ice may cease to melt. Everyone may in fact be immortal in his or her particular quantum timeline.  They are not assured, only obviously highly likely.  We call these things facts in normal conversation.

lamecomedian: Saying that a person will be remembered in the future as fondly as she currently is remembered IS a prediction


Now are you adding qualifiers to my statement that I didn't put there.

lamecomedian: a lot of people thought Rudyard Kipling was awesome back in the day, but his reputation has suffered since then.


So, you're saying that Kipling is not now considered a "great writer"?
 
2014-06-03 02:34:53 PM  

Z-clipped: lamecomedian: I've got an MA in English lit - does that count?

Well, it's a start.  Have you made any intelligent criticisms in this thread?

Her poetry is weak, treacly, greeting-card caliber pap.

Ahem. OK.  Any idea why so many respected scholars and writers would find enormous value in her work then?


Because in the past fifty years or so form/execution in art has been downplayed in favor of evaluating a work based on its politics.  Case in point: "Same Love" got a lot of praise, despite being technically weak (the lyrics are laughably simplistic) because it embraced a popular political issue.  Maya Angelou was/is an important political symbol for a lot of people.

And while it's fair to say I haven't posted an erudite, scholarly critiques of her work in this thread... well, it's Fark.  Didn't seem like it would be worth my time.  If you'd like we could correspond over email, however.
 
2014-06-03 02:35:11 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Dr. Bush has honorary doctorates from (at least) Yale, Harvard, and Dartmouth.
 
2014-06-03 02:35:43 PM  

ikanreed: stonicus: So, saying I don't respect Mike Tyson's skills as a boxer isn't racist. But saying I don't respect Maya Angelou's skills as a poet is. You are a confusing person.

Re-read.  I made it clear, I was specifically only calling the person who defended that idea in the context of Franklin somehow being different from Angelou is deserving a distinction.  That wasn't you.  I never called you racist, and you're being tremendously defensive over someone elses' easily reconsidered position.

You took that accusation(that in the context of argument presented was reasonable to conclude was racist) as me being willing to drop the charge willy-nilly.


But I held the exact same opinion as the guy you called a racist, so what's the difference?
 
2014-06-03 02:38:16 PM  

lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?

Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).

Ok, I choose "popularity".

Totally legit.  How do you factor in changes over time?

I just go by total record sales and let the winner of "quality" be dynamic and change over time.  So a song may have the highest quality one month, then not for a year, then take it back again at a later date.  And we've now just defined quality to be the exact opposite of what you stated earlier.

Unless/until I say "I think your criteria are inappropriate" and propose a new set.  And then we do the dance all over again.

Also, your definition seems to imply that quality is *only* relative - that is, it's only "better" or "worse" than other items, not merely "good" or "bad" in isolation.  That seems... strange.


But quality is a property that everyone is allowed to have their own rules on, which was my whole point.

As far as relative quality vs absolute quality, what is the absolute universal standard of the quality of a song?  There isn't one.  It can only stand in comparison to other songs, which makes it a relative standard.
 
2014-06-03 02:38:37 PM  

stonicus: ikanreed: stonicus: So, saying I don't respect Mike Tyson's skills as a boxer isn't racist. But saying I don't respect Maya Angelou's skills as a poet is. You are a confusing person.

Re-read.  I made it clear, I was specifically only calling the person who defended that idea in the context of Franklin somehow being different from Angelou is deserving a distinction.  That wasn't you.  I never called you racist, and you're being tremendously defensive over someone elses' easily reconsidered position.

You took that accusation(that in the context of argument presented was reasonable to conclude was racist) as me being willing to drop the charge willy-nilly.

But I held the exact same opinion as the guy you called a racist, so what's the difference?


I pissed him/her off more.
 
2014-06-03 02:38:45 PM  

stonicus: But I held the exact same opinion as the guy you called a racist, so what's the difference?


That I wasn't paying especially much attention to your opinion, specifically, then.  You're probably racist too, but I don't want to have the same fight twice simultaneously, and prefer not to jump to conclusions, in spite of what conclusions you jumped to about me.
 
2014-06-03 02:39:25 PM  

stan unusual: To assert that because he was not a physician.he was not entitled to the title Doctor is quite frankly silly, since unlike an M.D. he had earned both the first professional degree and an advanced professional degree that required  him to demonstrate he had advanced the field of knowledge he studied.


I think that there's a segment of the population that has started to think less of PhD degrees. Partly, we have a lot more PhDs around now than we did before WWII, because of the massive expansion of government funded research at that time, and they think more people with the degree must mean that the degree has cheapened to some extent.  There's also a more modern backlash against academics, learning, and science in general, with the perception that college professors and other PhDs don't do a lot of worthwhile work. Throw into the mix the ever-rising cost of college attendance, and I can see how some people might start to feel bitter at the biggest public face of these institutions.

Some people just want to make it a competition, and try to claim that one of a MD or a PhD is better or harder than the other. Let me tell you this: people who actually have MDs and PhDs couldn't care less. They're completely different degrees for completely different work and types of work. The work that a PhD does in industrial or academic research, or in academic teaching, is completely different than the work that an MD does in clinical care. You absolutely would not someone with a PhD in biology trying to do medicine, and you absolutely would not award a random MD a multimillion dollar research grant.
 
2014-06-03 02:40:12 PM  

stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?

Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).

Ok, I choose "popularity".

Totally legit.  How do you factor in changes over time?

I just go by total record sales and let the winner of "quality" be dynamic and change over time.  So a song may have the highest quality one month, then not for a year, then take it back again at a later date.  And we've now just defined quality to be the exact opposite of what you stated earlier.

Unless/until I say "I think your criteria are inappropriate" and propose a new set.  And then we do the dance all over again.

Also, your definition seems to imply that quality is *only* relative - that is, it's only "better" or "worse" than other items, not merely "good" or "bad" in isolation.  That seems... strange.

But quality is a property that everyone is allowed to have their own rules on, which was my whole point.


Then we've been agreeing all along.

As far as relative quality vs absolute quality, what is the absolute universal standard of the quality of a song?  There isn't one.  It can only stand in comparison to other songs, which makes it a relative standard.

So if we destroyed all copies of every song but one, it would cease to have quality, good or bad?  Listening to it would produce no response whatsoever?
 
2014-06-03 02:43:02 PM  

lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: lamecomedian: stonicus: Ok, what set of non-subjective criteria are going to use to judge the quality of a poem, or a song, or a painting?

Whatever you want, man.  Edgar Allen Poe thought length was important in poetry - he thought a poem needed to be digestible in one sitting (which is why he didn't care for epics).

Ok, I choose "popularity".

Totally legit.  How do you factor in changes over time?

I just go by total record sales and let the winner of "quality" be dynamic and change over time.  So a song may have the highest quality one month, then not for a year, then take it back again at a later date.  And we've now just defined quality to be the exact opposite of what you stated earlier.

Unless/until I say "I think your criteria are inappropriate" and propose a new set.  And then we do the dance all over again.

Also, your definition seems to imply that quality is *only* relative - that is, it's only "better" or "worse" than other items, not merely "good" or "bad" in isolation.  That seems... strange.

But quality is a property that everyone is allowed to have their own rules on, which was my whole point.

Then we've been agreeing all along.

As far as relative quality vs absolute quality, what is the absolute universal standard of the quality of a song?  There isn't one.  It can only stand in comparison to other songs, which makes it a relative standard.

So if we destroyed all copies of every song but one, it would cease to have quality, good or bad?  Listening to it would produce no response whatsoever?


It can invoke a response, of course.  But quality intrinsically is a comparative term.  If you only have one person in the universe and he has $10, is he rich or poor?  If the universe were to reach thermo equilibrium (everything is the same temperature), is it hot or cold?  The man has money.  The universe has a temperature.  The song has a quality.  But without something to compare it to, what do those values mean?
 
2014-06-03 02:43:29 PM  

Leonard Washington: lennavan: Leonard Washington: I don't give a fark what they called people in the middle ages, you're not a doctor anymore. My dad is a doctor, nothing pissed me off more than some borderline competent to teach high school liberal arts professors insisting on me calling them doctors. You want to get called a doctor, get approved by the state to write a prescription.

Leonard Washington: You quit deserving to be called doctors the second someone else figured out how to help people better.

MDs write prescriptions for cures/treatments a team of PhDs spent decades developing.  Your MD didn't cure cancer, a whole crap load of PhDs did.

Do you also thank the waiter/waitress for the terrific job they personally did cooking your steak, while calling the chef in back a useless asshole?

MDs do a whole lot more than write prescriptions

And you're suggesting that the cook should be thanked for the excellent service...


You don't go to a restaurant for excellent service, you go for the food.  What good is a restaurant with awesome service and no food?  The chef makes the food.  Thank the chef.

You don't go to a MD for excellent service, you go for the treatments.  What good is a really nice MD who has no treatments?  The PhDs make the treatments.  But those guys are assholes, fark them.
 
2014-06-03 02:43:56 PM  

lamecomedian: stonicus: ikanreed: stonicus: So, saying I don't respect Mike Tyson's skills as a boxer isn't racist. But saying I don't respect Maya Angelou's skills as a poet is. You are a confusing person.

Re-read.  I made it clear, I was specifically only calling the person who defended that idea in the context of Franklin somehow being different from Angelou is deserving a distinction.  That wasn't you.  I never called you racist, and you're being tremendously defensive over someone elses' easily reconsidered position.

You took that accusation(that in the context of argument presented was reasonable to conclude was racist) as me being willing to drop the charge willy-nilly.

But I held the exact same opinion as the guy you called a racist, so what's the difference?

I pissed him/her off more.


Because you're a racist.  =)
 
2014-06-03 02:45:38 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Mambo Bananapatch: Of course she has the right to demand that people refer to her as "Dr.".

I have the right to demand that people refer to me as "Your Holiness".

Nobody is under any obligation to call me anything at all, nor forbidden from calling me whatever they want.

Therefore, this entire discussion is stupid.

Did she ever demand it, or did others simply do it as a sign of respect?


I just assumed. If she didn't, then the discussion is even stupider than I thought. Because who the hell else would care?
 
2014-06-03 02:45:57 PM  

chimp_ninja: Rurouni: If you mean she's a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor, then yes she's a doctor.

Strangely enough, it's officially just "Dr Pepper", not "Dr. Pepper".  I think we've been pronouncing it wrong all this time.


Dr Pepper, so misunderstood.
 
2014-06-03 02:46:15 PM  
Nice makeout session you two:

"You're the non-racist guy"
"No you're right and you're the non racist guy"
"Your incorrect opinion is right"
"Oooh now give me a reach around"
 
2014-06-03 02:48:35 PM  

ikanreed: Nice makeout session you two:

"You're the non-racist guy"
"No you're right and you're the non racist guy"
"Your incorrect opinion is right"
"Oooh now give me a reach around"


Well, if nobody was taking you seriously before, this will surely get them to believe in you.  =)
 
2014-06-03 02:49:25 PM  

someonelse: UtileDysfunktion: Queen Latifah isn't really a queen, either.

And Prince Fielder isn't really a fielder.


This post is more deserving of an honorary degree than Maya Angelou is.
 
2014-06-03 02:49:56 PM  

Z-clipped: lamecomedian: These are true by definition; they are not predictions.

Incorrect.  They are predictions which are assumed to be true based upon past experience for expedience.  Gravity may cease to work tomorrow. Ice may cease to melt. Everyone may in fact be immortal in his or her particular quantum timeline.  They are not assured, only obviously highly likely.  We call these things facts in normal conversation.


Maya Angelou's legacy is not so obvious, especially given how the popularity of different poets has waxed and waned historically.  If I recall correctly, John Donne didn't come back into fashion until T.S. Eliot re-popularized him (don't quote me on that, though) and he's all the rage today.
 

lamecomedian: Saying that a person will be remembered in the future as fondly as she currently is remembered IS a prediction

Now are you adding qualifiers to my statement that I didn't put there.


I thought the original statement was that she would be remembered as a great poet or something to that effect.

lamecomedian: a lot of people thought Rudyard Kipling was awesome back in the day, but his reputation has suffered since then.

So, you're saying that Kipling is not now considered a "great writer"?


In my program, if one were to admit to being a fan of Kipling, one would likely be ostracized into finding a different line of work.
 
2014-06-03 02:50:05 PM  

lamecomedian: And while it's fair to say I haven't posted an erudite, scholarly critiques of her work in this thread... well, it's Fark.


Interesting.  I find quite a lot of technical discussion on other subjects on Fark.

So you think her acclaim is entirely political, and not because of her ability to profoundly resonate with huge groups of people, give them hope, and help them find the inner strength to overcome certain shared adversities?