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(Some Guy)   10 lies my Mother Jones told me   (thetruthaboutguns.com) divider line 143
    More: Followup, Mother Jones, Violence Policy Center, justifiable homicide, town center, assault weapons ban, accidents, quantum electrodynamics, murder rate  
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3776 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Jun 2014 at 4:38 PM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-06-02 02:19:29 PM
a pro-gun site says an anti-gun article is 100% LIES I SAY LIES!

both sides are mouth breathing idiots
 
2014-06-02 02:23:44 PM
Wow we're greenlighting an awful lot of gun themed articles today, Monday Gunday!
 
2014-06-02 02:26:05 PM
Myth #1 from the rebuttal: Myth #3 doesn't exist.
 
2014-06-02 02:26:32 PM
"News flash: alligator-related death rates tend to be higher in states that have more alligators. Automotive fatalities are higher among people who own cars."

That's what passes for "debunking" these days?
 
2014-06-02 02:27:12 PM
truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com
I know this is supposed to be about guns but I just wanted to pause to giggle at the boobiegraph. Carry on.
 
2014-06-02 02:27:25 PM

Majick Thise: a pro-gun site says an anti-gun article is 100% LIES I SAY LIES!

both sides are mouth breathing idiots


Well, look past your own bias at the hard facts. The original Mother Jones article had 1 infographic, 1 graph, and 1 table with only 3 rows. No multimedia at all. This article has 2 videos and FOUR charts. In other words, there's 100 percent more evidence in this article than the original article.
 
2014-06-02 02:27:33 PM
img.fark.net

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.
 
2014-06-02 02:31:57 PM
Only took them a year and a half.
 
2014-06-02 02:37:01 PM
Nope, didn't read the article I see. The article clearly states that 90% of the Mother Jones article is outrageous lies. They conceded that Myth 8 is totally true; Wayne LaPierre is a nutjob.
 
2014-06-02 02:43:43 PM

Majick Thise: a pro-gun site says an anti-gun article is 100% LIES I SAY LIES!

both sides are mouth breathing idiots


Nope, didn't read the article I see. The article clearly states that 90% of the Mother Jones article is outrageous lies. They conceded that Myth 8 is totally true; Wayne LaPierre is a nutjob.

Sorry, my previous comment should have been in response to this post.

Also, I'm on the mouth breathing Mother Jones side of this argument and I'm not really surprised at the lengths that the author had to go to refute the "lies" of Mother Jones points. For example, he completely twists the "you are more likely to injure yourself with your own gun than protect yourself with it" into a statistic about how gun deaths are a fraction of all accidental deaths. Well duh, but MJ's point remains unrefuted, you are more likely to injure yourself by keeping a weapon than defending yourself.
 
2014-06-02 02:57:33 PM

violentsalvation: Wow we're greenlighting an awful lot of gun themed articles today, Monday Gunday!


That's damn right.

Now, just don't shoot anybody on your way to the parking lot today.
 
2014-06-02 03:02:54 PM
::Sigh:: Alright, let's go.

"Blatant lie #1 is the statement that no one in Washington is proposing national confiscation of firearms." - cites Dianne Feinstein, who admits she can't possibly do it.

Fine, ONE person, who admits it's an impossible task, would like to confiscate guns. Good job.

"Blatant lie #2: that's not the real issue. The statement isn't "they're coming for your guns," it's that they absolutely do want to take your guns." - Okay, now I'm confused, the real issue isn't that they want to take your guns, it's that they really want to take your guns? Also, last time I checked, when your granddad croaks, they're not YOUR guns, they're your granddad's estate's guns. But fine, someone, somewhere, proposed a law that would require you to turn in guns that are currently illegal when the current owner dies. That sounds exactly like confiscation to me.

"Gun-related deaths are more likely when there are more guns? And there's a direct correlation between gun ownership and gun-related fatalities? That sounds perfectly reasonable and logical to me." - Then why are you saying you're "debunking" the line that guns kill people. No one argues that alligators and cars don't kill people. They just think that we need cars to get around, and alligators have a right to exist as part of nature. Where do guns fall on that spectrum?

"It boils down to this: the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Police officer, concealed carry holder, school resource officer...it doesn't matter. Any armed opposition is effective." - In the two cases he cites he falls into the same trap of correlation and causation he so reviles in the MJ article. The guns were not used to kill the potential perpetrator, they were merely confronted. Maybe the perpetrator stopped because of the gun, though they couldn't fear death, since they both went and killed themselves afterwards, maybe it was the mere act of confrontation the men couldn't face, and if an unarmed person said "hey, what do you think you're doing" it would have had the same effect.

Also, for most people it's not the gun that makes a cop effective, it's the threat of jail for noncompliance.

"Uh, what's wrong with that? People who don't own a gun can't kill themselves with a gun. That seems like a pretty common sense thing to me, but apparently MJ believes that this proves guns are dangerous." - Because something that can kill is is dangerous, perhaps? You're admitting they are killing people, and yet deny they are dangerous, that it ridiculous.

"Firearms-related accidental deaths are so statistically insignificant that even if we were to outlaw all firearms and confiscate every single one, we wouldn't notice a difference." - 1.2 million people die every year by accident, nobody would notice 11,000 less, right? I mean, people act like killing 1 or 2 people is a bad thing, but there are over 7 BILLION people on Earth, so what difference does 1 or 2 make?

"Mother Jones arrived at their conclusion about people being killed in arguments versus citizens stopping a crime by using the number of justifiable homicides as a stand-in for defensive gun uses. The best "defensive gun use" situation is one where everyone walks away uninjured. Something that happens every day in this country." - So instead, I'm just going to make up some BS number I pulled out of my ass that every time I looked at someone while open carrying, I effectively deterred them from robbing me.

"Mother Jones apparently believes that women are weaker than men and inherently less capable of defending themselves. That's a pretty sexist position for them to take if you ask me." - Aside from the fact that, biologically, women do tend to have less muscle mass and upper body strength than men, this is totally irrelevant name calling. Good job.

"I just don't trust those numbers. What I do trust are the ever-increasing numbers of people showing up at shooting ranges and the constant growth in the firearms industry." - Well, I'm glad personal incredulity can overcome phone survey data. It's also not possible that more of the same people are buying even more guns, so that total sales go up while individual ownership goes down, right?
 
2014-06-02 03:05:29 PM
12 months with a dictionary looking up the words in the original article and 6 months to dictate his response to his nephew who is "good at computers and such".
 
2014-06-02 03:09:21 PM

vartian: [img.fark.net image 403x380]

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.


The Violence Policy Center is as credible a source of information regarding firearm use as is the National Rifle Association.
 
2014-06-02 03:12:54 PM

Dimensio: The Violence Policy Center is as credible a source of information regarding firearm use as is the National Rifle Association.


They are pulling the data right from the CDC's report.
 
2014-06-02 03:46:56 PM

Dimensio: vartian: [img.fark.net image 403x380]

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.

The Violence Policy Center is as credible a source of information regarding firearm use as is the National Rifle Association.


Good thing we have reliable data about gun safety and usage in crimes and have allowed researchers to study it and..wait, what?
 
2014-06-02 04:13:06 PM
Another gun thread? And we can't have a single one about the totally gunless Cones of Dunshire last night? Lame.
 
2014-06-02 04:38:33 PM

DamnYankees: Another gun thread?

It seems like someone is spamming the queue with them.
 
2014-06-02 04:40:23 PM
ahh hahhahahah

more cargo cult rhetoric from conservatives

"if i say the word debunk, all of my fever dreams become true!"
 
2014-06-02 04:42:13 PM
CONTEXT! DEBUNK! INTOLERANCE!

*waves arms furiously*
 
2014-06-02 04:43:17 PM

vartian: [img.fark.net image 403x380]

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.


I remember a gun nut passive aggressively telling me how uncaring I was for my loved ones by not owning a gun in one of these threads.
 
2014-06-02 04:45:28 PM
I'm sure "thetruthaboutguns.com" is an unbiased source for this type of information.
 
2014-06-02 04:46:09 PM

violentsalvation: Wow we're greenlighting an awful lot of gun themed articles today, Monday Gunday!


I can hardly wait for Tuesday Uzi-day!
 
2014-06-02 04:46:22 PM
11.  Chicks totally did guns.

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-06-02 04:46:42 PM
And yet I'm "creepy" because I keep a comically large Bowie knife under my couch.
 
2014-06-02 04:46:53 PM
Ah, Truth About Guns. I remember visiting that site around the time of the Trayvon Martin trial. Most of the commentators were certain race riots were imminent after the not guilty verdict and were warning everyone to avoid the "black areas" for safety reasons. It's not really the place I go to for reasoned discourse.
 
2014-06-02 04:47:49 PM

vartian: [img.fark.net image 403x380]

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.


Listen, I'm kind of on neither side of this debate. I'm a professor of criminals justice who wants to look at this issue academically and not emotionally. So when I say that you are wrong, please don't think I'm some far right gun nut. But that being said, you're absolutely wrong.

Both sides of this debate have INCREDIBLY bad arguments to prove that their side is right. This is one of the more prevalent on the anti-gun/pro-gun control side. The VAST majority of the time a gun is used for defense, it isn't even fired, let alone used to kill the person being defended against. If you want to compare the numbers of times guns are used to murder people or commit suicide against the number of times they are used to defend the wielder, more power to you. But don't post misleading statistics like this where only the defensive uses that result in a fatality (or even a shot being fired) are counted. That's dishonesty of the worst sort and only makes your side look bad.
 
2014-06-02 04:48:21 PM

i253.photobucket.com

Since I put his warning sign on the front door I haven't had any break-ins. And I leave the door unlocked with a trail of gold coins leading into my bedroom.
 
2014-06-02 04:48:47 PM

Bloody William: And yet I'm "creepy" because I keep a comically large Bowie knife under my couch.


It's the couch part that makes it creepy. At least keep it where normal people keep their comically large Bowie knives, namely under the coffee table.
 
2014-06-02 04:48:58 PM

Jackson Herring: CONTEXT! DEBUNK! INTOLERANCE!

*waves arms furiously*


FYI: any discussion where someone uses the word "debunked" to describe any study without going into detail is wronger than whatever they're claiming is debunked.  Some very few things are purposefully  fraudulent, like Andrew Wakefield.  Some things have subtle and important flaws, like a Klecks' over-reliance on honesty on politically sensitive surveys.  Some have flaws that don't actually inhibit their conclusions, like Piketty, and the word "debunked" magically manages to combine the very different classes of problem.

And some are just blatantly and falsely called "debunked".
 
2014-06-02 04:50:06 PM

Nobodyn0se: vartian: [img.fark.net image 403x380]

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.

Listen, I'm kind of on neither side of this debate. I'm a professor of criminals justice who wants to look at this issue academically and not emotionally. So when I say that you are wrong, please don't think I'm some far right gun nut. But that being said, you're absolutely wrong.

Both sides of this debate have INCREDIBLY bad arguments to prove that their side is right. This is one of the more prevalent on the anti-gun/pro-gun control side. The VAST majority of the time a gun is used for defense, it isn't even fired, let alone used to kill the person being defended against. If you want to compare the numbers of times guns are used to murder people or commit suicide against the number of times they are used to defend the wielder, more power to you. But don't post misleading statistics like this where only the defensive uses that result in a fatality (or even a shot being fired) are counted. That's dishonesty of the worst sort and only makes your side look bad.


Do you have any data to back this up? I understand it might be hard to come by; situations like the ones you describe are typically not reported.
 
2014-06-02 04:50:24 PM
The premise of the piece is simple: paint gun owners as paranoid idiots ...

With the bar set that low, it's hard to imagine Mother Jones could have screwed it up.

Also, paint guns? Recast that sentence, Foghorn.
 
2014-06-02 04:52:57 PM

qorkfiend: Do you have any data to back this up? I understand it might be hard to come by; situations like the ones you describe are typically not reported.


The stats accidentally scraped together by gun nuts actively seeking those people correspond closely to the order of magnitude of justifiable homicides.
 
2014-06-02 04:53:32 PM

Dimensio: The Violence Policy Center is as credible a source of information regarding firearm use as is the National Rifle Association.


I like the way you used specific examples to prove your thesis.
 
2014-06-02 04:55:59 PM

vartian: You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.


Notice how they don't report how many crimes are stopped and yet don't end in gun owner not having to kill the criminal? This is how we lie with statistics.
 
2014-06-02 04:56:20 PM

Bloody William: And yet I'm "creepy" because I keep a comically large Bowie knife under my couch.


Nothing to feel bad about though - we all have our kinks.
 
2014-06-02 04:57:13 PM
Take another look at this:

truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com
 
2014-06-02 04:58:15 PM

a particular individual: Dimensio: The Violence Policy Center is as credible a source of information regarding firearm use as is the National Rifle Association.

I like the way you used specific examples to prove your thesis.


To be fair, while those particular stats are almost entirely beyond reproach, an examination of the organization's history makes it clear they are specifically a political organization dedicated to the purpose of stopping gun ownership.
 
2014-06-02 04:58:44 PM
If you like your plan you can keep your plan
 
2014-06-02 04:59:03 PM

Unknown_Poltroon: vartian: You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.

Notice how they don't report how many crimes are stopped and yet don't end in gun owner not having to kill the criminal? This is how we lie with statistics.


millions probably
 
2014-06-02 05:02:07 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Take another look at this:

[truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com image 850x616]


As someone who supports gun rights, and owns a few dozen guns, that chart is ridiculously misleading, and only makes my side look stupid. I hate when my side looks stupid.
 
2014-06-02 05:02:54 PM

Brick-House: If you like your plan you can keep your plan


You do understand that this is an article about gun control, and you're only pretending to be a disturbingly stupid troll for the comedic value, right?

Good one.
 
2014-06-02 05:03:39 PM

flucto: [truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com image 620x450]
I know this is supposed to be about guns but I just wanted to pause to giggle at the boobiegraph. Carry on.


I'm more of an ass graph man.
 
2014-06-02 05:04:39 PM

vartian: [img.fark.net image 403x380]

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.


Joe Biden says racking the slide of a shotgun is intimidation enough to scare a would be robber away.

Do you have any cites as to defensive uses of handguns that dont involve justifiable homicide?


What you are doing is akin to counting the amount of sex people have by the number of pregnancies that result from having sex.
 
2014-06-02 05:09:09 PM

Giltric: What you are doing is akin to counting the amount of sex people have by the number of pregnancies that result from having sex.


Why drag Catholics into this?
 
2014-06-02 05:11:04 PM
The founder of that site, Robert Farago, is a bit of a nut.

On the bright side, he also founded TheTruthAboutCars.com which he is no longer a part of. That is a fantastic site.
 
2014-06-02 05:11:43 PM

Unknown_Poltroon: vartian: You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.

Notice how they don't report how many crimes are stopped and yet don't end in gun owner not having to kill the criminal? This is how we lie with statistics.


Notice how you didn't post any numbers, just suggested that they were wrong because reasons? That's called bullshiat.
 
2014-06-02 05:14:09 PM

vartian: Unknown_Poltroon: vartian: You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.

Notice how they don't report how many crimes are stopped and yet don't end in gun owner not having to kill the criminal? This is how we lie with statistics.

Notice how you didn't post any numbers, just suggested that they were wrong because reasons? That's called bullshiat.


that's rich.
 
2014-06-02 05:14:50 PM
The interesting thing about the left-right split with guns is that leftist glamourisation of revolution is just a fantasy where a population of exploited workers throws off their yokes, somehow when unarmed, whereas the rightist dread of change and the willingness to maintain even an unsatisfactory status quo is effectively made untenable by every citizen having the wherewithal to act as they please, and by force if so inclined. It's almost as if there was no actual logic being applied.


Short version -- revolution takes guns, no guns means limiting ability to change society.
 
2014-06-02 05:14:58 PM

vartian: [img.fark.net image 403x380]

You want to own a gun in the US? Be my guest, it is your right. It won't protect you - you and your loved ones will probably survive ownership unharmed, but it has a comically overwhelming chance of causing injury to your family and friends than it does defending you.

So yeah, it is your right - an exceeding selfish, statistically idiotic right. So do try not to be an asshole about it as well.


If you had read the article, you would not have posted that since that little bit of journalistic trickery was covered.  To summarize, referencing the number of justified homicides completely ignores the number of times guns are used to prevent a crime without a shot being fired (estimated at 50,000 to 100,000 per year).
 
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