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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11257 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2014-05-23 10:15:46 AM  
18 votes:

Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.


If you read the article, it's not about slavery reparations. In fact, it's primarily about reparations for the ongoing system of white supremacy enshrined in the government until extremely recently, like how even until less than 50 years ago, the Federal Government would not give secured loans to anyone living in ANY black neighborhood (redlining).

And "sundown towns", which were towns where blacks were not allowed on the streets after dark, existed until the 1980s. I was born less than five years after the last sundown down went away.

The Irish, the Chinese, and others had it bad. But they did not have it nearly as bad or for nearly as long, nor was the entire modern country of America built on centuries of their suffering. Our current cities are massively shaped by white supremacist  laws and policies from when your parents were born. It is hypocritical for Americans to claim the heritage of Valley Forge and the Declaration of Independence and then dismiss white supremacy as "just the past."
2014-05-23 08:45:18 AM  
13 votes:
So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.
2014-05-22 07:04:25 PM  
13 votes:
Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?
2014-05-22 03:19:08 PM  
11 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: Rincewind53: but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.

T-NC is one of the best writers of our time.


I agree. The article is filled with absolutely fabulous lines, phrasing that cuts to the heart of the issue. Just came across this one:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about "black pathology," the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America's relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer."

He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."
2014-05-22 02:57:47 PM  
11 votes:
It's a long article, but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.
2014-05-25 01:17:36 AM  
10 votes:
You know, even as a resident Fark conservative troll, nothing in that article can be dismissed out of hand.  In fact, it's a fantastic basis for actually having an adult conversation about racism in the US, the legacy of it, and how to treat the repercussions that still exist today.  We aren't going to get anywhere denying that there isn't a structural, institutional bias against black Americans that exists today in a barely less destructive form than has existed for the entire history of the country.  Everything from how schools are funded to how wealth is accumulated is designed to disproportionately affect black Americans negatively, and if we don't at least acknowledge that, then we're going to be stuck with bullshiat "solutions" that treat symptoms instead of fixing the problem.  Forced busing treated a symptom, and affirmative action treats a symptom, but there are very few good suggestions about solving the actual problem.

Think about it this way: an inner-city urban "yute" is statistically all but guaranteed to be farked for life.  You might reach 1-2% who manage to escape the cycle of poverty if you're lucky.  Outside of getting adopted at birth, that's by design.  They are born poor, go to underfunded schools because schools are primarily funded with local taxes, live in neighborhoods with no economic base beyond illegal trade, and that's all by design.  Those neighborhoods exist because that's where more privileged people decided they were going to live.

And he's even hitting the nail on the head about reparations.  He's not asking for direct payment to make up for past sins, he's asking to use public money to fundamentally change the system that churns out, for lack of a better term, legacy life failures.

All in all, it was a very well written article that at least outlines the HOW of institutional racism.
2014-05-24 11:45:31 PM  
9 votes:
Once again, for the not-quite-literate among us:

THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY

it's not about things that happened generations ago to people long dead. It's about the injustices that have happened recently. To people alive today done by people alive today and the fact that those past injustices matter right now.
2014-05-25 12:29:44 AM  
8 votes:
phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


Okay, I'll give it a shot.

As I read through the thread, I see that most people here are hung up on the slavery aspect of the story. That's understandable I guess, because the reparations arguments of the past have almost always centered on redress for slave labor. But the article (which I read yesterday) spends very little time on slavery. Hell, it doesn't even dwell on the Jim Crow south. Coates spends the vast majority of the article talking about how we were systematically, legally, and intentionally locked out of the American dream long after slavery was abolished, and he uses Chicago as a case study.

As a black person, do I want reparations? Nope. Not because I think it's a silly idea. But because I think it's the easy way out. I don't want the U.S. government writing a bunch of checks and then saying "Okay, we good now?" It completely oversimplifies the issue.

What the author is advocating in this article (if I read it correctly, and I believe I did) is not really financial reparations, but rather, acknowledgment and introspection. And on that point, I agree wholeheartedly. If America was ready to have an honest conversation about what has been done to black people in this country beyond slavery...then we wouldn't have people asking stupid questions like "Why can't blacks get their shiat together?" "Why can immigrants come here and succeed but blacks can't?" "Why are the blacks always complaining?"

Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:

www.leftycartoons.com
2014-05-25 12:09:43 AM  
8 votes:
i18.photobucket.com
2014-05-24 11:28:32 PM  
8 votes:

Babwa Wawa: That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.


I think that's what's raising so much controversy - in order to gauge what is needed to make something whole, you must start with acknowledging what damage has been done.

It would be a huuuuuuge thing for America to at least acknowledge the institutionalized racism in its public policy for its entire history.
2014-05-24 11:11:07 PM  
8 votes:

Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check?


Yeah, see that's how I know you didn't read the article.

Reparations don't need to take the form of direct payment to the victims.  Further, the author makes the point that slavery is not the only wrong committed against blacks in our society, and wronged blacks are very much still alive.

Read the article, give it a think, and come back with some thoughts, you know, about the farking article.

/white guy
2014-05-25 01:54:02 PM  
7 votes:
Somebody a while back asked for a black Farker to comment, well, here's one speaking now. Warning, this is gonna be a tl;dr for those not inclined to give a fark.

- For those of you guys saying, "well my parents were German/Irish/Italian/(insert your white ethnicity here) came in 19dickity5, blah blah blah", well this is about the ONLY time you guys ever seem to acknowledge your ancestry. The rest of the time, you're go about your lives as "Generic White Person". It's very rare for black people to pinpoint a specific country where our ancestors came from - we're lucky to go back to 1820 at best, and even then, it's a story like "Massa beat me three times today. Worked 18 hours picking cotton." I remember I was sitting at a bar with a group of white people telling stories of how their families ended up here, the whole Ellis Island bit, and then I said "Well, (unfortunately) our boat ride was free." It got a laugh, but the point remained - your ancestors had a choice in the manner of coming here, for good or bad, mine didn't.

- I'd probably have a little more sympathy for poor white people from the sticks if they didn't kiss the asses of their corporate relatives and impoverishing our and their communities. I live in GA now, but hail from MO.  You got poor whites in GA blaming their lot in life on blacks from ATL, Mexicans taking their jobs, all the while voting for those same idiots stripping the inner cities of chances for good education, jobs, infrastructure, what have you, on a basis of "they're giving them darkies free shiat and taking OUR tax money", despite the fact that 1) how in the hell are you going to take taxes from someone making $30K/yr, and 2) Just who in the hell is going around telling black voters "I'm going to make them crackers pay us reparations, starting with each whitey giving us 75% of his income, effective immediately?" Kingston's followers talk this crap up about how poor (and let's be honest, they're thinking black) kids need to learn how to pay for their school lunches and take on extra work and scrub floors or whatever. Well let me tell you, there's PLENTY of poor whites in NE GA that would have their kids on the same plan, income alone, but they'll vote him in because he's sticking it to the blacks, and that's all that matters to them. Of course their schools will still be crappy, their kids will have poor health care, their salaries will still be poverty level, but as long they get to put a Confederate flag sticker on their beat up car, participate in Civil War reenactments, and whine about not saying the N-word, they'll gladly throw themselves in the woodchipper as long as a black guy got thrown in before him.  Same shiat in Missouri - whites will moan about STL and KC being littered with thugs, and I'm not saying either is no picnic myself, but they'll overlook the meth distributors in the Ozarks and the Bootheel, because that would mean they'd be criticizing their fellow white compatriots, and that's some introspection that isn't to pretty to look at.

- Instead of whining about having to pay black people $50,000 each year out of your salary, it would be a lot easier to set things up so that the next generation could have it easier.  I mean really, I get tired of people whining about affirmative action being the reason why they aren't at a certain job. Really, the interviewiers flat out told you, "Well, because you're a white guy, we had to give the job to a black woman this time around. Thank you for your interest, though." Do employers tell the people they didn't hire who got the job who got it instead? Who's to say that they didn't give it to another white guy? And even if they did, that increase of black employees from 2% to 4% is supposed to mean you're going to eat dog food for the rest of your life? I hear this crap about college admissions all the time, "I would've gone to Harvard if it wasn't for AA!" Funny, I don't hear that argument when it comes to the child of a rich donor, a veteran, or anyone else who got a hand up? I applied for about 50 or so jobs in 2009 before getting my current one. I could've said "these white people aren't going to hire me period, so why bother." Did some of them throw my resume in the trash? Maybe. Can I prove it? No. But I'm not going to the white guy or girl they hired and telling them "You only got that job because you're white!"

Bottom line, I'm no SJW or a vengeful black militant on a mission to make you ofays pay or whatever, but I cannot stand perpetual whiners getting pissy over things that in the grand scheme of things wouldn't hurt them at all. Does providing blacks with more opportunities to participate in voting mean that white people can't vote for 100 years? Does funding an inner city library mean that whites will stuck reading cheap romance novels for life? Does having a black president mean we're going to repeal the 13th Amendment and enslave whitey for 400 years?
2014-05-25 01:42:39 AM  
7 votes:
One of the most brilliant, informative articles I've ever read and still people argue with utterly stupid comments. It makes the writer's own point that it's not impracticality that stops us, it's something more existential. It's an unwillingness to admit the faults of our great republic. Which I think is sad, I think it's actually a lack of confidence in America, because I think we're big enough to overcome this.
2014-05-25 01:23:21 AM  
7 votes:

Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and society as he does, merely by their loosely shared skin color, so why should we give him a pass for lumping multiple distinct "white" peoples, such as the Irish, Scots, German, English, and more into one general group to pass judgment upon for the actions of generations past of various groups of a far different society?

And I quote: This was 1947, eight years before Mississippi lynched Emmett Till and tossed his broken body into the Tallahatchie River. The whole state, according to Coates. Not the two men who did it, and the jury who let them go, the whole state, for and against civil rights, lynched Till.  Coates does this repeatedly, without any hint of irony or self-awareness, even as he brushes by North Lawndale's homicide rate as a horrible statistic, but not indicative of any internal problem but only to compare it to the national average as if it is somehow induced from outside.

It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.
2014-05-25 12:01:44 AM  
7 votes:
"I'm not asking you as a white person to see yourself as a slaver, I'm asking you as an American, to see all the freedoms that you enjoy, to see how they are rooted in things that -- the country that you belong to condoned or actively participated in, in the past. And that covers everything from enslavement, to the era of lynching when we effectively decided that we weren't going to afford African-Americans the same level of protection of the law. It applies to share cropping, when we decided that we were gonna in whole swaths of the country allow people to be effectively re-enslaved, it applies to redlining when we decided that people that lived in certain places would get the largesse of the government, and other people would not. It applies today in terms of mass incarceration, when we decided we are going to be harder on crimes committed by certain people, or the same crime committed by certain people, and not be that hard when it's committed by other people. This is heritage. It's with us. It's with all of us. And it's not with you because you're white, it's with you because you're an American." Link
2014-05-23 01:31:05 AM  
7 votes:
Rincewind53 finally had the time to finish the last half (long day). If this:

In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number-$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book-could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two. Today Charles Ogletree, the Harvard Law School professor, argues for something broader: a program of job training and public works that takes racial justice as its mission but includes the poor of all races.

plus ending the drug war and completely reworking the criminal justice system can be called reparations than I'm all for it. Of course I don't expect that wealth gap to instantly close either, it will take generations to undo. Pragmatism.
2014-05-24 11:55:12 PM  
6 votes:
www.spd.org

Slavery ended years ago. I don't know anyone who was a slave.
2014-05-24 11:50:25 PM  
6 votes:

phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


I would.

Just the first hundred comments should really inform everyone as to why black culture, in all respects, appears so aberrant.

Basically, it boils down to you never care about our needs as a supposedly fully enfranchised segment of the population, until we start burning buildings and looting in incoherent rage.

Remember the reaction to the Watts and other riots of the Sixties.
Remember the reaction to the South Central riots of 1992.
Remember the reaction to the looting post Katrina in New Orleans.

Now what was our level of care before then?
And in real terms... not very high.

So right now our collective mood is "You never cared about us, so why should we care what you think of us now. "

Brothers and Sisters are going to make money however they can because fark the system.

If that makes us look like a bunch of thugs and miscreants, so be it.

Why do you think we go through so much trouble to derive names that are non-standard? Because we just don't care about it anymore.
2014-05-24 11:39:12 PM  
6 votes:

OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


It's not about me, it's about us as a country. We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.
2014-05-24 11:31:30 PM  
6 votes:
Reparation was paid with the blood of all the men who died on the battle field to end slavery in this country.
2014-05-24 11:16:17 PM  
6 votes:

vernonFL: 40 acres and a mule, Jack.


Sometime around 1965 the Democrats figured out that you only have to promise them that and 90% of them will vote for you whether they ever get it or not.
2014-05-25 02:10:05 AM  
5 votes:
I'll tell you a quick story:

My Dad:  Born in 1940, pure Russian parents, that ended up in East Germany after the revolution.  Escaped with the clothes on his back to Cleveland.  CLEVELAND, mind you.  Father was a PhD, but ended a hospital janitor.  In CLEVELAND.  After being arrested and given an opportunity to serve his jail time in the military, my Dad made a career out of the Navy.

My Mom, Born in 1932, the 10th of 12 kids to what ended up as a single mom in Massachusetts.  Racially, a Scots-Irish mutt with some dubious claims to native american heritage, and whatever seemed convenient to the company she was keeping.  "Oh, you're from Quebec?  My great-great grandfather was Quebecois!".

Me:  Third of three kids, lower-middle class.  High school was minority dominated (I went to the same HS as Plaxico Burress).  Paid my own way through college.

So, given this history, what do I personally owe black people?  Not a damned thing.  On the face of it, I had the same opportunities.  I grew up in integrated communities and had, quite literally, the same educational opportunities up until 12th grade.

From a societal perspective?  Oh, I owe a hell of a lot more than nothing, I can assure you of that.

Despite thedisrespect given to my paternal grandfather for his immigrant status, he was not denied access to the tidy house he owned in a stable neighborhood. My father was given the opportunity of a career in the place of a prison term - despite the fact that he could not speak English when he entered the military.

Had my grandfather been black, he would not have been granted the opportunity to gain financial independence.  Had my father been black, he would have started his adulthood in prison.  Had either of these been the case, my two elder siblings and I (not to mention my cousins) would have seriously different outcomes.

So yeah, it's not quite "white guilt" that I feel, but a sense of "there but for the fact of race, go I."
2014-05-24 11:42:25 PM  
5 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

It's not about me, it's about us as a country. We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.


Yeah, racism is so bad that black men can't even get elected to important offices.
2014-05-24 11:24:20 PM  
5 votes:

Abox: I'm not racially sinning today either so leave me out of it.


For the second time, it's not about you. It's about America. Jesus christ.
2014-05-24 11:24:18 PM  
5 votes:
2.bp.blogspot.com
Reparations were paid 150 years ago, Quit yer whining.
2014-05-24 11:14:43 PM  
5 votes:

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


An entire country. See "Liberia".
2014-05-24 11:11:39 PM  
5 votes:
Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.
2014-05-23 12:59:45 PM  
5 votes:

Rincewind53: If you read the article, it's not about slavery reparations.


I read it, and I realize. It just doesn't read as well to cite every example he provided.

But that doesn't really change my opinion that I don't think we can buy our way out of this. This isn't a money problem. Sure the program-route has promise, but it's still attempting to apologize for beating the hell out of your kid by buying them an Xbox.

Rincewind53: It is hypocritical for Americans to claim the heritage of Valley Forge and the Declaration of Independence and then dismiss white supremacy as "just the past."


That I'll give you. I'm personally of the opinion that we shouldn't be taking credit or blame for the actions of Americans 100+ years ago.
2014-05-25 01:36:51 PM  
4 votes:
For everyone who DNRTFA, here's the best summary paragraph.

Having been enslaved for 250 years, black people were not left to their own devices. They were terrorized. In the Deep South, a second slavery ruled. In the North, legislatures, mayors, civic associations, banks, and citizens all colluded to pin black people into ghettos, where they were overcrowded, overcharged, and undereducated. Businesses discriminated against them, awarding them the worst jobs and the worst wages. Police brutalized them in the streets. And the notion that black lives, black bodies, and black wealth were rightful targets remained deeply rooted in the broader society. Now we have half-stepped away from our long centuries of despoilment, promising, "Never again." But still we are haunted. It is as though we have run up a credit-card bill and, having pledged to charge no more, remain befuddled that the balance does not disappear. The effects of that balance, interest accruing daily, are all around us.
2014-05-25 10:52:41 AM  
4 votes:
2.bp.blogspot.com
2014-05-25 01:53:33 AM  
4 votes:

BlueDWarrior: Yeah, and some of us get equally mad when the name on the rejected resume said "DeQuan" instead of "Daniel"


Coates mentions it in passing, but the racism still inherent in hiring is both obvious and quantifiable. As I'm sure you know, a "black" name can prevent people from hiring a candidate.

In fact, they've studied this by sending out identical resumes to employers, one with a stereotypically "white" name like John, and one with a stereotypically black name. Even though the resumes are identical, hiring managers rate the resume from the black candidate worse, and are more likely to hire the white candidate.

This is a great example of some of the really f*cked up entrenched racism in America.

On an unrelated note....
Admins, thanks for greening this. When I submitted it I knows there would be both racist idiots and people who refused to read the article and wanted to just babble on about how their parents didn't own slaves. But there have also been dozens of comments about appreciating the article, and I think it may do more good than harm. Thank you.
2014-05-25 12:27:06 AM  
4 votes:

advex101: Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.


Its beyond blame at this point.

We just want an audit just so we can see just how screwed we've been as a people.

Maybe then we can consider the proper structure going forward.
2014-05-25 12:23:21 AM  
4 votes:
The damned issue NEEDS SIMPLY TO BE DISCUSSED FIRST.

We are a powerful country built on a solid foundation.

BUT.

One of the foundation stones, at the very least, is ROTTEN through and through.

It MUST be examined openly. It must be brought to the light of day.

We have both great good and great ill-doing in our history.

Even the founders paused in dread for thought on the conflict between "all men are created equal" and slavery.

If they were here now, in this time, they would not be afraid to face it or discuss it, or examine it, or study its histories and its foot dragging aftermath.

THEY would not be afraid to admit that they had committed a grievous error.

They would not be aftraid to try to correct it.

What are we so afraid of? Our own history? Treating human beings like human beings?

The rotten foundation stone has to be pulled out.
2014-05-25 12:18:18 AM  
4 votes:

No Such Agency: vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]

Norman Rockwell could paint corny wholesome Americana with the best of them, but when he laid down the hammer, he farking laid it down.  That painting, as stylized and as intentionally string-pulling as it is, gives me the chills every single time.


I like this pic:

www.eurweb.com



The woman Obama is talking to is Ruby Bridges, the little girl in the painting.

They're viewing the painting in the White House.
2014-05-25 12:01:19 AM  
4 votes:
Also Black people have really only been economically franchised for the last 30 years in the most broad of senses.

When almost everyone in a group starts from zero or negative wealth, you get persistent poverty.

Of the kind that makes idiots believe that group is fundamentally inferior.

Sure we celebrate the Magic Johnson s and the Oprahs of the world. And we use those aberrations to further beat upon Blacks in general while saying "They made it out why can't you"

I'm starting to believe that redlining was as destructive to building Black wealth as the Jim Crow laws in the South.
2014-05-24 11:41:00 PM  
4 votes:
"Reparations" doesn't mean throwing money at someone to shut them up.

It means  making right what had been wrong.

If people are going to keep interpreting the term so narrowly, maybe we should stop using it.
2014-05-24 11:37:30 PM  
4 votes:
Wrong last link, here is the Moyers interview. Link

Everyone in here who is talking about slavery, or "my family didn't own slaves" or money transfers is way off the point. This is a much broader look.
2014-05-24 11:35:41 PM  
4 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm an American.

And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.


Exactly. We can't fix jack shiat until we admit that there's a farking problem, because nothing gets fixed if it can't even be identified as a problem. And look around--there's a big problem that still isn't fixed, and it's starting to fall backwards.
2014-05-24 11:21:58 PM  
4 votes:

Babwa Wawa: DubtodaIll: forgot to use a sarcastrophe there. Obviously money can only buy things. The entire argument for reparations does not hold water. It will not make anyone whole. You think more handouts is going to do anything to improve the plight of black people in America? The only way to success is through the achievements of your own work and effort. Guilting someone into giving you things is the way con men make their money.

Yah, yah, yuh.  You didn't read the farking article did you?

Please to explain where IN THE F*CKING ARTICLE HE PROPOSES HANDOUTS.


Reparations are handouts.
2014-05-24 11:21:17 PM  
4 votes:

vernonFL: Yogimus: Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.

Again, RTFA. Oppression against blacks did not stop in 1865. It continues to this day.


So does oppression against chinese, whites, jews, mexicans, etc... What makes one group a sacred cow, while the others consistently succeed?
2014-05-24 11:16:26 PM  
4 votes:
Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.
2014-05-24 11:15:24 PM  
4 votes:

Flying Lasagna Monster: Barack Obama would pay reparations to himself?


Ah, yes.  Directly addressed in the article.

I'm sensing a trend here.  People don't want to sit down and read something that can't be consumed in less than 60 seconds, yet feel compelled to offer an opinion.
2014-05-26 10:46:54 AM  
3 votes:

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: The narrative is only blacks had it tough and whites skate through life.


I'm not sure what narrative you're referring to, but that's not the narrative presented in this article.

If you start to look at the lasting results of Jim Crow and Federal Government policy relating to racial discrimination in housing and housing loans, you'll see that after the Civil Rights Act began to be enforced, the people in charge simply moved to "code words" instead of outright stating race, and therefore more white people got caught up in these discriminatory policies. This is happening even today. Policies intended to keep blacks down are keeping whites down, too.

You wind up with a "grandfather clause" sort of situation identical to Jim Crow voting laws in all but name, which boils down to if your father or grandfather was wealthy enough to own a home, then you're much, much more likely to get approved for a loan. Of course this disproportionately affects black people, since they were almost universally routinely denied loans due to Federal policy excluding them based on their skin color, but it also definitely affects white people who come from a poor background.

By examining these policies, we can figure out how to change them to help everyone, not just black people.
2014-05-25 02:32:53 AM  
3 votes:

Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.


FAIL. The Irish and the Chinese came here of their own free will, and could leave the same way. Some were even encouraged to. The Irish in particular took only a couple of generations to become as white as anyone else, especially when they began to be elected as politicians and hired by police forces. Even Jews disappeared into the whiteness that was this country when they wanted to... ever heard of the famous Horwitz brothers?
Native Americans got thrown out of their own house... ain't that some sh*t?
Can't speak for women, since unfortunately they've been brutalized since there have been men and women.

African Americans don't want a check, although we wouldn't turn one down... all we want is to be treated like "americans". No "special treatment" by police or the courts, no "advantages" in schools, for loans or scholarships... just treated like everyone should be. Don't look at the name on my resume, look at my education and experience. Don't look at the neighborhood I live in, look at my credit score for that loan. Don't look at my impressive tan during the job interview, look at how well-creased my dress shirt is and how shiny my shoes are.

Not like black people, but like people. Is that too much to ask? Apparently and for the last 400 years, the answer seems to be... yes.
2014-05-25 01:15:06 AM  
3 votes:
I only read parts I and II, because TFA is incredibly long, but what's described boils down to the rich people taking advantage of the poor people. That's a universal constant, regardless of culture and time. Poor whites were/are hit just as hard by unfair economic practices as were poor blacks, but blacks were hit all the harder because they disproportionately lacked/lack the education to understand a bad deal when they're presented with one and the connections to fight it once they realize what's going on. The exact same thing happens to poorly educated and poorly connected people of all races, but when you compound that on top of institutionalized racism you get a cultural death-spiral that results in the ghettos and communities described in TFA.

With respect to reparations:

1) The injustice inflicted on poor and black families is fundamentally a theft of opportunity. Any reparations should be about restoring opportunity: job training, scholarships, affirmative action where it will help, and even cash in the form of start-up grants for businesses operating in minority areas or owned by minorities are all acceptable, but just no-strings cash is stupid and morally reprehensible.

2) As I said above, the economic injustices are perpetrated by specific rich people onto poor people. Maximum justice would be to levy fines and taxes on those specific people, families, and institutions that economically benefited from abuse of minorities. For example, levy a use tax on the country club that was sized from southern blacks. In general, poor southern whites didn't benefit from slavery in the way that the landowners did, and in particular they didn't institutionalize the economic discrimination.

3) Enact legislation that requires states to equally fund education across all communities. Regardless of the how and why, the current state of affairs is that there are a lot of poor black communities that just can't afford to educate their kids as well as affluent communities. Tying school funding to the economic performance of local communities (which is the way it's largely done now) is a recipe for enduring inequality for all poor communities, whether they are predominantly black, or rural, or what have you. This isn't even a reparation, it's just universal fairness.
2014-05-25 01:14:24 AM  
3 votes:

The Southern Dandy: I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?


Quit being obtuse and read the damn article.

We ALL would benefit from unraveling the institutional discrimination that exists everywhere in the American system.  So we should ALL contribute towards its reduction.
2014-05-25 01:08:46 AM  
3 votes:

Nemo's Brother: Why have blacks lagged so far behind Asians, the Irish, Latinos and every other single minority that was poorly mistreated at one point in time in our country?


That is the question.
It is answered in the article referred to here.
Please read it.
2014-05-25 12:55:30 AM  
3 votes:
taurusowner:

Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.


The last panel of the cartoon is the most relevant one to this article (specifically the very last line spoken by the white character: "If I made it up here by myself, why can't you?")

Again...it's not just about slavery. If slavery had ended and white America collectively said: "You know what? You people got a shiatty deal. Well, that ends starting right now. You have the exact same rights that we do and we will make sure that is legally enforced. Not only that, we will view you and treat you as our equals, and welcome you into a fully integrated society."

If that attitude had prevailed in 1865 and black people still had the exact same problems that we do now...I'd completely agree with you. But as we both know...that shiat didn't happen. Just the opposite in fact. Which is the entire point of the article.
2014-05-25 12:55:21 AM  
3 votes:
What I am hearing, even if it is not being stated in as many words, is this notion that the African, and by extension the African-American is too intellectually inferior in order to advance their position.

The fact that the African continent has been abused by colonial powers in the past and still is abused by multi-national corporations doesn't count.

The fact that there are entire volumes of encyclopedias that can be written on all the specific codified law that went into disassembling both the franchise of the African American and his economic agency, all of that doesn't count.

The fact that the way we treat crime in American is skewed heavily toward treating whites like 'normal' and Black and Brown people like 'animals waiting to reoffend' doesn't count.

Everything we as a country have done to the people within our borders, and what we as a global society have done just... doesn't count.

It's the black man's fault he gets sentenced at a disproportionately high rate.
It's the black woman's fault that her unplanned pregnancy is a sign of moral and logical failure.
It's the black child's fault his schools are falling apart and he is almost destined to the traps of the previous two.

Is that what we are really saying?

I honestly want to know...
2014-05-25 12:53:38 AM  
3 votes:
I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.
2014-05-25 12:48:12 AM  
3 votes:
"Having read the article I know you do not mean white folks writing checks to black folks. So in an ideal world what form would reparations take?"

"In an ideal world, when we talk about social justice we would understand it as part of healing that heritage and dealing with that legacy. So, for instance, take healthcare right now, when you look at a whole swath of where we had enslavement, we had plantation slavery on a very very deep level, and you look at that and say 'why is there not a medicaid expansion?' We would be very clear about why there's not one going on right now. And those of us who make policy, those of us who have power, who sit on our courts, would think about that when we make rulings. We wouldn't be afraid to say that.

Right now in following John Roberts line, I think what he said is 'to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race'. What we want is a kind of color-blindness, we think that's the answer. But color blindness isn't the answer. Color isn't the problem! Racism is the problem. And being conscious of racism is the solution. It would like to see that in our policy. One of the attacks from the right, from Rush Limbaugh is, 'this is reparations'. Well not quite, but it could be. It would be nice of that was a part of it. I would be nice if you would actually say that. Outside of politics, yeah this will disproportionately benefit African-Americans, and yeah that's a really really good thing. It might actually help heal this heritage that we have. And in ideal world you could actually say that. In a world in which people are actively considering reparations, and actively thinking about it, and talking about it in a serious way, you could say that." Link
2014-05-25 12:36:20 AM  
3 votes:

Miss Alexandra: Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.  In fact the first slave owner in America was--wait for it!--black!  http://topconservativenews.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was - a-black-man/

What about Arabs involved in the slave trade?  Why aren't the race hustlers shaking them down?  (Maybe they're afraid that the Arabs will declare jihad?  Who knows....)

How about the fact that slavery still goes on in Africa even today?

You can take that white guilt, shine it up, turn it sideways (I think you know the rest)....

As far as I'm concerned, blacks have already gotten reparations.  It's known as Section 8, welfare, and various other kinds of freebies.

Victimhood is an industry nowadays, it seems....


White people didn't invent slavery, but they did invent freedom.
2014-05-25 12:36:12 AM  
3 votes:

taurusowner: Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.


So nobody alive today was around for the redlining of the 1960's? Are our mortality rates really that bad?
2014-05-25 12:21:20 AM  
3 votes:
I see this thread was roughly as successful as I envisioned it'd be.

It was a good article. The stuff about how the housing market screwed over generations of blacks was particularly enlightening. I knew Chicago always had issues with integration, but I was unaware that there was an entire secondary market based entirely around forcing any black that wanted to buy a home to do so through incredibly unscrupulous predatory lenders.

I knew, when I read the article, that most people would probably just see the title and write it off as the libbiest lib dream that ever libbed, but it was insightful and informative. I expect I won't see another like it for some time.
2014-05-25 12:17:22 AM  
3 votes:
"Social Security when it was passed excluded African-Americans. Now it wasn't written that way. It was written so folks who either worked as farmhands or worked as help in the house, were excluded. What that had the effect of doing is excluding roughly 80% of African-Americans in the south, and something around 65% of African-Americans nationally. And what people will tell you is that got fixed. And it did get fixed.

But the problem is during those years people are injured. And that's how you get a gap. The fact that you injured those people during those years doesn't mean that people will catch up when you eventually fix it. It relates to us today, because the argument we make about Obamacare and the medicaid expansion is 'well, eventually market pressures will force those states in the south to catch up. They'll fix it.' But see in those intervening years, black folks who needed it most, much like black folks who needed it most during the era when we passed Social Security, will be injured. Again. And the fact that it gets fixed will not close the gap. So the questions is - why do we keep doing that? Why do we look at a map of where the medicaid expansion has gone through and where it hasn't, and why do we see this swath of the country that's directly identical to where we had plantation slavery?" Link
2014-05-25 12:13:25 AM  
3 votes:
Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.
2014-05-24 11:55:06 PM  
3 votes:
Women were systematically discriminated against throughout our nation's history, and still are today in varying ways.

Therefore, everyone who descends from women is entitled to reparations.

/Coates' logic
2014-05-24 11:49:49 PM  
3 votes:

Babwa Wawa: I get the feeling that you may have read this article. :-).

It is exactly that - racism, institutionalized in public policy - which begs to be reckoned with.  And TFA's author doesn't even touch the war on drugs.  To do so would have watered down his argument, but in reality is the extenuation of that heritage over the last 30 years.

I would love to see what he might say about that topic.  Wait, I could see what he thinks about it in general, but hesitates to pass judgement without further study.


Yes, indeed I did read it last night.

I really want to see someone who read the article provide an argument as to why we cannot at least study the effects of institutionalized racism in the United States. What harm it did (and still does today), and what it would take to undo that harm.
2014-05-24 11:48:25 PM  
3 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.


Um, we have our boot on the neck of the black people? Really? REALLY?  Shut up.
2014-05-24 11:43:15 PM  
3 votes:

OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.
2014-05-24 11:40:34 PM  
3 votes:

DrPainMD: Rincewind53: He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."

If that's a "powerful point" then the article must be pretty weak. Why should someone (like me) who comes from post-slavery immigrants accept responsibility? I had nothing to do with it. And, should the descendants of black slave-owners pay restitution? What about those who had some ancestors who were slaves and some who were slave owners... should they pay themselves? Heck, let's just tax straight, white males (to cover gender and sexual orientation reparations while we're at it) and call it a day.


He's not even arguing for specific restitution.

He's arguing that the entire system is tainted and has to be fundamentally reformed.
2014-05-24 11:40:19 PM  
3 votes:
White liberal guilt sucks. Stop it.
2014-05-24 11:35:29 PM  
3 votes:
Coates raises a few good points (that racism did not end in 1865/1964/2008), but his overall argument is so weak that it belongs on Slate.

The idea of group-based punishments/rewards, instead of individually tailored justice, is contrary to everything our nation aspires to.  It amounts to giving up on liberalism.  "Well, we gave color-blind society a shot, but we're too innately racist to ever do any better.  Might as start the war for spoils."

If Coates wants to bend society towards that illiberal direction, he will be unpleasantly surprised to discover that other ethnic groups also have grievances, which they feel deserve redress every much as Coates feels anti-black racism deserves redress.  If that game is played, black people will end up doing even worse than they presently are, because they'll be outvoted.
2014-05-24 11:35:29 PM  
3 votes:
You could do a soft reparation system with the following policies:

Expanded food stamps program
Increased money for public schools
Increased taxation on property (guess who doesn't have property post 2008 sub-prime crisis)
Subsidies to labor bargaining power through strengthening the legal position of unions (mostly make them easier to form)
More direct hiring by government with an eye towards poorer black ladies (notice who works at the DMV and social security offices)
Rebuild affirmative action through the nominally racially neutral standard of poverty (which in this country is obviously not racially neutral)
Weaken anti drug laws and start commuting sentences in accordance with reduced penalties
2014-05-24 11:33:30 PM  
3 votes:
Long live the original sin of white liberal guilt. Self-flagellation is fun to watch.
2014-05-24 11:31:36 PM  
3 votes:

Abox: I'm an American.


And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.
2014-05-24 11:31:27 PM  
3 votes:
Any person who was enslaved should be awarded restitution from the person who violated his rights.

Does anyone here know anyone like that?
2014-05-24 11:30:39 PM  
3 votes:
In America there is a strange and powerful belief that people whose ancestors may or may not have ever stabbed anybody owe money to the descendants people who got stabbed, whether or not said descendants were ever stabbed themselves.
2014-05-24 11:29:40 PM  
3 votes:
Many of my clients are black folks who are making money hand over fist, and don't want to be patted on the head.
2014-05-24 11:27:13 PM  
3 votes:
How do we determine who gets a check and for how much?  DNA tests?  Do we go by the shade of the skin?  Do albino African-Americans get nothing?  Tough luck for them I guess?
Do biracial people get a half a check?  Children of biracial get a quarter?
How do we determine who pays the money?  Is it only whites that pay? How much?  Poor people pay as much as rich people?
Are people who made something of themselves and succeeded in life because they believed themselves to be an individual and not a drone of some hive or group getting a check?
Are we giving rich people like Will Smith or Magic Johnson a check?
What about the blacks that immigrated here recently from a country that no American held a slave ever?  What is giving them money reparations for?
Are we making blacks that immigrated here recently from a country where blacks enslaved others and sold them to whitey pay?  How much is their portion?
2014-05-24 11:26:32 PM  
3 votes:

cabbyman: Bith Set Me Up: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.

As far as conservatives are concerned, black people and poor people are one and the same.

With this in mind let's have the "photo ID needed to vote" discussion and see where that goes.


The problem is both

Despite the rhetoric, the system in effect has disdain for the poor, and outright malice for Blacks.

On a related vein, how many times have we heard that blacks need to do like other minorities and abandon their culture, or at least the parts that can't be exploited and sold to white suburbanites...
2014-05-24 11:25:31 PM  
3 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm not racially sinning today either so leave me out of it.

For the second time, it's not about you. It's about America. Jesus christ.


I'm an American.
2014-05-24 11:21:26 PM  
3 votes:

Abox: My family didn't come here til around 1900 so don't blame me.


You're not to blame. But that's not the point. America is to blame. This article moves the discussion forward on we as a country atone for our racial sins -- not just of the past, but also the ones we are committing today.
2014-05-24 11:20:10 PM  
3 votes:

DubtodaIll: forgot to use a sarcastrophe there. Obviously money can only buy things. The entire argument for reparations does not hold water. It will not make anyone whole. You think more handouts is going to do anything to improve the plight of black people in America? The only way to success is through the achievements of your own work and effort. Guilting someone into giving you things is the way con men make their money.


Yah, yah, yuh.  You didn't read the farking article did you?

Please to explain where IN THE F*CKING ARTICLE HE PROPOSES HANDOUTS.
2014-05-24 11:16:36 PM  
3 votes:

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.


Sure; but it seems that a disproportionate number of blacks are poor compared to whites.  People like Robert Moses didn't help the cause; it was the likes of him that rounded up poorer blacks in neighborhoods like Harlem, etc.  They had a big special on this on PBS...one of those narrated series that discussed it. Wish I could remember the name of it.

Probably goes hand-in-hand with that whole "redlining" thing in TFA.
2014-05-24 11:12:06 PM  
3 votes:
I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.
2014-05-24 11:10:20 PM  
3 votes:
I agree that it's a well-written article, but I disagree that it's a good argument in favor of reparations.

The actual logos of the article boils down to assertion with a side of ad hominem, with a disconnected conclusion.  Nothing really convincing in there as far as reparations actually potentially effectively addressing any kind of actual extant problem.

// Historically, it's taken disenfranchised populations a generations or perhaps two to go from legally granted equal footing to having actual economic equal footing and enfranchisement.  We've seen it with women, the Irish, etc.  The only historical example of reparations for anything we really have is the founding of Israel, and that's... not really a strong argument in  favor.  Maybe a good argument  against...
2014-05-24 11:09:33 PM  
3 votes:
Yeah, money heals all wounds.
2014-05-23 10:17:58 PM  
3 votes:
The next day, I stationed myself by the side of the road, along which the slaves, amounting to three hundred and fifty, were to pass. The purchaser of my wife was a Methodist minister, who was about starting for North Carolina. Pretty soon five waggon-loads of little children passed, and looking at the foremost one, what should I see but a little child, pointing its tiny hand towards me, exclaiming, "There's my father; I knew he would come and bid me good-bye." It was my eldest child! Soon the gang approached in which my wife was chained. I looked, and beheld her familiar face; but O, reader, that glance of agony! may God spare me ever again enduring the excruciating horror of that moment! She passed, and came near to where I stood. I seized hold of her hand, intending to bid her farewell; but words failed me; the gift of utterance had fled, and I remained speechless. I followed her for some distance, with her hand grasped in mine, as if to save her from her fate, but I could not speak, and I was obliged to turn away in silence.
2014-05-23 08:31:22 AM  
3 votes:

itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?


You might want to go back to high school history class and re-read the chapter covering 1947-1948.
2014-05-22 03:11:09 PM  
3 votes:

Rincewind53: but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.


T-NC is one of the best writers of our time.
2014-05-26 02:44:36 PM  
2 votes:

liam76: You are claiming the us govt never addressed it.

The fact that they wrote laws to try and fix it means they addressed it.

The law isn't perfect and the situation 'fixed' but the givt has addressed it.


The Civil Rights Act wasn't even fully implemented until years later. It also did not in any shape, form, or fashion stop racism or many racist policies in the private sector, it just kept racist policies from being the law of the land that everyone had to adhere to, whether they were racist or not.

It also did absolutely nothing to alleviate the damage done by decades upon decades of "separate but equal" and the like. It just said, okay we're not forcing everyone to be bad to black people as a matter of law anymore, so we're cool, right?

It's long past time to examine what damage was done for all of those years, and why black people aren't catching up to everyone else in income level, education, and opportunity.

The assailant dropped the knife, yes, but no one has bothered to offer medical attention; instead, they're asking the victim why he's still so rudely bleeding all over the place.
2014-05-26 02:00:54 PM  
2 votes:

Tatterdemalian: using some magical technique that mostly involves transfer of wealth to a duly designated representative of African-America


Yep, you didn't read it.

Spoiler alert: the article isn't about transferring wealth or writing checks to black people or anything like that. It's about examining the long term effects of Federal public policy (aka laws) and how they have negatively affected black people, and how this has resulted in black people being poorer despite the tremendous amount of wealth they have generated - and therefore current law that negatively affects the poor disproportionately affects black people.

By fixing the problems that currently negatively affect the poor, it will help everyone, not just black people. But it will help black people more, since they're currently disproportionately affected because of prior injuries that resulted from everything from Jim Crow to Post-WWII Federal Housing policy.

That's it. That's what he's saying. The first step in making things right is to examine and identify what exactly is wrong. Most people (myself included, and I think Mr. Coates as well) do not believe that simply "transferring wealth to black people" is any kind of solution - but we can't know this until we understand the problem. "Reparations" doesn't mean that white people should write checks to black people, it means the country should fix what it did wrong.
2014-05-26 12:03:38 PM  
2 votes:

Waldo Pepper: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: whidbey: Waldo Pepper: I have to apologize. I did not understand that you use the fark threads as a way of feeling powerful and important. if I only I had known, well it's too late now. I made you feel weak and powerless.
cheer up the sun will come up tomorrow

No all you've done is confirm whatever suspicions I had of you. What is this, the 3rd or 4th denial/deflection/excuse, now?

Care to go for a 5th reason why you're afraid to comment?

Rhetorical question.

Wait,wait don't tell me! I think I know.

It is not difficult to recognize the 'Cassandra Complex' as soon as the following features are noted:
- Feeling of the certain important mission to accomplish;
- Constant warnings about the consequences of incorrect behavior;
- Permanent appeal to the moral principles and the common order;
- Ability to feel the grief of the other to the point that it becomes one`s own;
- Sufferings caused by the people`s ignorance and disobedience.

For your added pleasure, Whidbey.

*working to keep the brother down.
[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 243x208]
 The history of white people did not start skinny jeans and i-phone aps.
Maybe if all history taught in school was more inclusive, rather than current diet of the fat white plantation owner watching over the 'darkies' in the field.

I think a big disconnect is that both white and black people are equally ignorant of their shared history.

 The narrative is only blacks had it tough and whites skate through life.

an often ignored quote from Dr. King
Many poor whites... were the derivative victims of slavery. As long as labor was cheapened by the involuntary servitude of the black man, the freedom of white labor, especially in the South, was little more than a myth.
Martin Luther King Jr

And you know how the descendants of many of those poor whites of the slavery days and the Depression days and the child miners in the photos and such became the Middle Class they were starting in the latter ½ of the Twentieth Century? FHA loans enabling them to become homeowners, sharing the enormous wealth the USA gained in the post-WWII period due to the combination of most of our competition having their civilizations largely bombed out from under them, and our own Marshall Plan which, over a few decades, helped rebuild them and, oh, yeah, give us even more of a market during that time.

Guess who was shut out of all that? By design and intent? Guess who had to settle for diabolical rip-off "contract homes" instead? That's a large part of what TFA is about. So, did you two even read TFA?

lantawa: CivicMindedFive: Poot beer: CivicMindedFive: The United States paid for slavery with an ocean of blood (600,000+ combat deaths in the civil war plus who knows how many civilians in the south died under Sherman's march) and treasure.  The people most directly responsible (slave holders) lost everything after the civil war plus the non-slave holding whites paid a heavy penance during reconstruction.  We have spent trillions upon trillions on welfare that goes disproportionately to black Americans.  All of that may not and is probably not equal to the suffering of blacks during slavery, but it is a tremendous price to pay.

Even, then, who the hell would pay and who would collect?  My grandparents on my mother's side came here from Europe in the early 1900's.  My father's family was dirt poor and he didn't finish high school because when my father's father died, my father dropped out of school in 10th grade to work to support his mom.  I have zero benefits from slavery.  Then, how can you tell who are direct descendants of slavery?  Are people who are 4/5th white with some black going to benefit?  Are we going to have a government genealogy program to identify who pays and who collects.

We should never forget, but I assure you we do not.  My children going through public school in Florida in English/literature classes have about 3/4ths of the books they are assigned to ready directly dealing with slavery and racism.  You can't escape it.  It is not forgotten or brushed under the rug.

No matter how eloquent or well written the article is, this is a beyond dumb idea.

How would you know? You didn't read it.

Why don't you summarize it for me. I don't have the time or inclination to read it. Let me know that the conclusion is on exactly how we should implement this scheme and why the blood and treasure already spent and is continued to be spent (look at black vs. white crime for blood) is not enough.

They don't have an answer for you. You have correctly addressed the primary multi-century issue that is the central issue of the Atlantic article. The folks who are sniping at you are doing just that....sniping. (Though there has been an uncommonly civil dialogue, on whole, in this thread)

odinsposse: In the time you spent writing that post you could have read enough of the article to realize that it mainly isn't about slavery or about just cutting checks to black people. In short, you just devoted a lot of time to embarrassing yourself.

Brosephus: Didn't read the article, huh? To quote others, It's not just about slavery!!!

Poot beer: How would you know? You didn't read it.

To CivicMindedFive and (aka?) lantawa: This is Memorial Day Weekend. You bloody well do too have the time to read the article. It's long, but not that long. You lack the "inclination" to read something that goes against your precious, precious pathetic little worldview. And so you're commenting on something that you're intellectually unqualified to comment on.

pendy575: The blacks in this country do not hold the corner in oppression in this country. They just loudly proclaim it so at every opportunity.

Really? What's the name of the entire town that was wiped off the map forever just for being Irish or Italian or Chinese? You know, like Rosewood, Florida was in 1923 for daring to be successful while black? The town is gone. All that remains is a few crumbling shells of some structures and a roadside sign marking where it once stood:

upload.wikimedia.orgupload.wikimedia.org

Where's the city that was attacked from the air (the first U.S. city ever to have that happen to it, and the only one until 9/11) for being Irish or Italian, like the black neighborhoods of Tulsa were two years earlier?

Both of those were alluded to in TFA. A few that weren't include Ocoee, Florida in which the entire black portion of the town was razed and dozens killed because a black man tried to vote!! All blacks ― every last one ― was either killed or run out of town (from homes that they owned, enabling whites to get said homes for free), making it an all-white town for over six decades until the early 1980s.

Another I know of that wasn't (and I was surprised by this omission) which was arguably even worse than all of the above combined (and which helped get Jim Crow rolling, though that actually started a couple decades earlier with the Hamburg Massacre of 1876) was the Wilmington Insurrection of 1898, which was an actual violent and successful coup d'état against a rightfully elected "Fusion" city government ― the first successful coup against a rightfully elected government in U.S. history. Death toll estimated in the hundreds.

Heck, the then-ultra-conservative Democratic Party had organized paramilitary "militias" (basically private armies for the Party) at its beck and call to use against blacks and (then-liberal) Republicans, such as the Red Shirts and White League. Show me an equivalent against Irish and Italians, etc.

Show me anything even remotely approaching any of those that happened to Irish, Italians, or Chinese in this country. The First Nations I'll grant you.
2014-05-25 03:10:30 PM  
2 votes:
I'm surprised that I'm surprised by all the "black people getting free checks for slavery, durr" posts this article generated, but I am. As many others have pointed out, that's pretty far from the (what I see as the intended) thrust of the piece.

It's pretty undeniable that the United States were largely built, if not on white supremacy, at least by white supremacists to a very large degree. That many of our current social and economic conditions were birthed by and, until relatively recently, formed and nurtured by such attitudes. That's what half the article is about, not slavery, but the continued anti-black measures found all over the country, for decades and decades, that rather incontrovertibly must have some responsibility for some current situations.

These measures used to be considered a generally good thing by most European Americans, including those of us whose families came here well after slavery, those of us whose families fought to end slavery, and those of us whose families were slaves themselves in the past. The majority of us thought Africans were inferior, or, at best, sufficiently undesirable to make these practices worth the moral cost, if any such cost were perceived in the first place.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that every single one of us now agree that an entire group of people shouldn't be dicked over like that (obviously not the case, but assuming), it doesn't change what already happened. The effects are still ongoing. If we're going to all agree that, yes, institutional racism is undesirable, don't we have to admit that our now-undesirable practices had real consequences, and perhaps assess how they can be corrected to whatever degree is feasible?

That's really all the piece seems to be saying, to me.

At absolutely no level is it as simple as "ok, white people get a special tax so we can cut checks to black people." It is not saying "ok, you, white person, are guilty of a crime someone who looks like you committed in the past." We all pay taxes. We all live under the same federal government. Any "reparation" would be in the form of our shared government attempting to correct the consequences of itself, essentially, through the refocusing of attention and resources.

No one is talking about the son of a European immigrant being penalised so the great-grandson of a slave can get a check. It's more like the same government the immigrant and the slave-descendant live under turning some of its influence towards hopefully ameliorating some issues that negatively affect the society both live in.

The point of "I didn't do it, my family wasn't even here" is correct to a degree, but so is the counterpoint of "welcome to America, Mr. Lopez, as a new American, you're going to have to understand that some of your tax dollars might go towards problems that existed before you got here."

Helping poor people helps all of us. If our shared government can spend billions on wars many of us don't support, surely they can spend something on helping people, even if you personally don't care. None of us are guilty of the sins of our fathers, and we're certainly not guilty of something done by someone who simply looked like us, but the crimes committed against our fathers and people who look like us can still have an effect on us today.

My family came here in the twentieth century. We had no part in your slavery, civil war or direct involvement in marginalising black people, but like almost everyone else who comes here, the indirect benefits to be had thereby are ours as Americans. I can't help but notice that, having achieved such success as a country, there is some latitude...economically and socially...to correct mistakes of the past to some degree.

I don't particularly like black people, and "white guilt" is a bizarre concept, but a bum deal is a bum deal, and this particular bum deal hurts more people than just African Americans. If any part of that deal can be improved, it can only help us as a society, because they're not going anywhere. It isn't even a racial thing, to a large degree...I would make the same argument toward a future generation of predominantly-mestizo Americans of recent vintage:

"You weren't involved, but you inherited the benefits. We should use some of those benefits to correct some of the remaining detriments."

That's all.

Having said all of that, though, I can't help but note that what you allow to be done to others can eventually be done to you, and "When enslaved Africans, plundered of their bodies, plundered of their families, and plundered of their labor, were brought to the colony of Virginia in 1619, they did not initially endure the naked racism that would engulf their progeny. Some of them were freed. Some of them intermarried. Still others escaped with the white indentured servants who had suffered as they had. Some even rebelled together, allying under Nathaniel Bacon to torch Jamestown in 1676." seems like a far more likely end to our current issues, but I can't decide whether that's optimism that we'll band together against a common enemy or pessimism that it will take all of us being shiat on a lot more before we realise that, again, what we allow to be done to others may eventually be done to all of us.
2014-05-25 01:00:47 PM  
2 votes:

lilplatinum: So your first map tells us that the north has more metropolitan areas, and your other comparisons reveal the startling fact that Detroit is an even shiattier place to live than Atlanta.

Thus the South is better.... quod erat demonstrandum


In which you ignore the fact that I said "this comparison holds across most major metropolitan areas."

And the fact that I specifically mentioned that the majority of 5th quintile cities are in the north - which would mean the proportion of 5th quintile cities is higher in the north than the south, something that is easily assessed by taking 30 seconds to interpret the map I posted.

Would you like to explain to me why the northern states incarcerate blacks at a ratio of 13:1 against whites?

i.imgur.com

"Thus the north is better - because I feel it to be true based upon my own prejudices and feelings"

Good jerb.
2014-05-25 12:33:39 PM  
2 votes:

CivicMindedFive: No matter how eloquent or well written the article is, this is a beyond dumb idea.


In the time you spent writing that post you could have read enough of the article to realize that it mainly isn't about slavery or about just cutting checks to black people. In short, you just devoted a lot of time to embarrassing yourself.
2014-05-25 12:16:06 PM  
2 votes:

rohar: Elegy: rapidly integrating cities with the most upwardly mobile black populations are in the south; that most majority black cities in the south these days are run by black mayors and policed by majority black police forces

...and they still have the lowest economic mobility in the nation.

[graphics8.nytimes.com image 650x344]


Which is arguably more indicative of the general lack of economic opportunity in the rural south than it is any institutional racism. You didn't include a breakdown of upward mobility by race, so it adds nothing to your argument.

Source for map please, I love this stuff.

A cursor glance at a map of segregation reveals that the majority of fifth quintile cities for the dissimilarity index are in the north:
i.imgur.com

I suggest you explore census scope For various northern and southern metropolitan areas.

For example, Atlanta beats the hell out of Detroit for exposure between blacks and whites (sharing stores, schools, etc):
Atlanta:
i.imgur.com
And Detroit:
i.imgur.com

The dissimilarity index is even more telling:
Atlanta:
i.imgur.com
Detroit:
i.imgur.com

The south is no panracial utopia by any means, but at present it is worlds better than most of the north; these patterns hold across the a comparison of most major metropolitan areas.

The north is being left behind in the search for racial socioeconomic equality, and all they can do is biatch about how racist the south is as they confine their black populations into increasingly hellish ghettos.

You don't even want to see the maps on incarceration rates by race by state. Or do you?
2014-05-25 11:51:32 AM  
2 votes:

svanmeter: If this all sounds silly, it's because the whole reparations idea is silly. It's time to move on. I didn't RTFA and have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm like a child that walked into the middle of a movie theater

2014-05-25 11:50:18 AM  
2 votes:
This is all very well and good, and the Deep South takes a hard rap (as it should) for its decades of institutional racism. It's nice to see that Chicago and other northern cities were harshly criticized for their role in the creation of the urban ghettos - a nice change of pace from your typical "this is all the south's fault" mentality that pervades these discussions. This was an excellent article that provided me (personally) with relatively little new info, but I bookmarked it because it is rare to find this all in one place.

Of course, the author was focused on history, and largely ignored that the most rapidly integrating cities with the most upwardly mobile black populations are in the south; that most majority black cities in the south these days are run by black mayors and policed by majority black police forces; and that the worst segregation and institutional discrimination now goes on in the north, rather than the south. The worst racist and worst examples of racism are all in the north, something Farkers do not seem to understand - under constant pressure, both social and Federal, the south is becoming more egalitarian shockingly fast, while the north lags behind and compensates by living in the 60's and blaming the south for all racism.

As for reparations? It's a difficult issue. I have no problem with the general idea, but I would need to see specific policy implementations before I took a position. Some of those suggested in TFA seemed workable and just, but the devil is always in the details when it comes to legislation.
2014-05-25 09:51:51 AM  
2 votes:
Per the map in the article, I live in one of the least segregated neighborhoods in Chicago.  It's clear from walking my streets that I live surrounded by people of all races.  There's a large Asian community (mostly Vietnamese), a solid Hispanic presence and just as many black people as white.

If you look at the crime statistics for my area, they're actually BETTER than many of the mostly-white neighborhoods surrounding mine.

And yet, ask the average young white person in Chicago about my neighborhood and most will tell you that they'd never set foot in my neighborhood.  It's SCARY.  They're afraid of being shot at by gang bangers.

Anyone who says racism is dead is purely full of shiat.  It's alive and doing quite well, and is in no way declining.  It's only getting better at hiding itself.  No one uses racial slurs in public, but that doesn't mean they're not just as racist as our grandparents were.
2014-05-25 09:40:51 AM  
2 votes:
Ally'all racist NeoConfederates who troll this article  are the most compelling argument for why Black folks in America do indeed have an undressed grievance , and just one of many reasons from our dark past for why Black Americans do in fact need some large, meaningful gesture of penance from their country. Reparations, in the form of a large trust for education to those motivated to get an education, or a large Enterprise Fund,(put up by the Banksters to atone for past  unpunished crimes), that would target all of those eligible for compensation. THAT would be Blacks who could demonstrate a liniage of discrimated upon antecedents, it could also include Native Americans, and Spanish Americans who can demonstrate a similar discrimination in the past from the Mexican/American War to  the present day exploitation by unscrupulous American Capitalists. And yes, to a certain extent, other ethnic groups,like Jews, Italians, Irish ,Lithuanians,Chinese, and others  who can credibly demonstrate some deep discrimination in their past. My family came to Mass from England in 1634 as indentured servants, and had to work for 12 years to earn their freedom. My family still understands the implications of this situation 350 years ago. My father still bristles at the Entitled attitude of the Bush Family.

We have been ardent defenders of the universal Rights of Man for all that time. This is just a speck of the grievance that American Blacks must feel. So fark y'all who treat this appeal with typical racist reaction.
2014-05-25 03:49:36 AM  
2 votes:
Never, in all the history if Fark threads, has one article made it so damned easy to tell, just from the comments, who has read the article, and who has not.
2014-05-25 03:22:33 AM  
2 votes:

firefly212: As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.


1. Not all black people want to ban gay marriage; aggregate black opinion is split pretty evenly.  Collectively condemning black people based on the actions of some is illogical.

2. Part of being a good person is treating other people well even if they don't treat you well.  Even if every black person in the country opposed gay marriage, it would be immoral to take that as a warrant to treat them poorly.

3. Straight-gay relations are probably the template for the future of race relations.  As long as gays embraced a countercultural / "outside group" identity (for understandable reasons), they were never going to convince most people that they were as fully American as anyone else.  It's only in the past two decades, with the attempts to culturally normalize gay people - as patriotic and moral as straight people - that voter opinion really started shifting towards ending anti-gay discrimination.

It'll be tougher for black people to integrate, just because of economic reasons, but I think that once we get to the point where there's less talk about grievances and more about patriotism and inclusiveness, that's when recalcitrant white people will open their hearts to the real problems facing black people.
2014-05-25 02:18:53 AM  
2 votes:

Captain Dan: A few points aimed at nobody in particular:

1. If you have any real-life proposals for ameliorating structural racism, please share them.  But if you don't, if you only want a "conversation about race," and what you really want is affirmation, to feel good about yourself without doing any hard work, confirmation that you're one of the good guys, then I'd advise you to head off to the bathroom and literally masturbate.  You'll get more of an endorphin rush.

A "conversation about race" means that we want a chance to convince racists that there is a problem. The hard work is being done by low paid social workers.

2. When you say "Ta-Nehisi Coates is such a good writer," "what a beautifully written article," etc., you're being unintentionally racist, like the people calling Obama "so articulate (for a black guy)."  You wouldn't say the same thing about an article written by a white guy, so stop patronizing Coates.

People can and do admire good writing. We here on FARK often complement Pocket Ninja for example. We aren't patronizing Ninjas.

3. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about left and right.  For example, probably the single best thing we could do to ease structural racism - overhauling and improving public education - is considered almost verboten on the left. Conservatives, on the other hand, are too often obtuse ("racism ended in 2008") or cynically resigned ("we'll never improve things") to contribute constructively to a policy response.

The 'left' as you call it are trying to improve education for all. Conservatives want to improve education for the select.

If you care about making the country a better place, don't treat structural racism as a proxy for some other political/identity fight.  All that does is marginalize the issue and make it less likely to be addressed.

Structural racism is at the core of what needs to be changed to make this country a better place.
2014-05-25 01:51:29 AM  
2 votes:
Not sure if the point has already been made elsewhere in the thread, but this issue seems very much tied to our illustrious history of dicking over the poor. I'm not making any grand novel insight by linking our persistent history of denying black people opportunity to their present situation. However, if you really have a problem with the idea that any attempt to fix it is "white liberal guilt", look past the skin and think of it as a "how do we help the poor" type of problem. If we can manage to do that, it will positively affect the black poor community disproportionately to the white poor community, given the difference of the poverty rate of those races. That I think could be a type of "reparations".
2014-05-25 01:34:05 AM  
2 votes:

BlueDWarrior: And guess what, the poor whites who live in trailer parks in Bumfark, Arkansas are just as royally screwed as the poor black that lives in the middle of South Central.

But we don't EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discuss how to rectify the institutional biases and outright denigration of those who are born in the delapitaed urban core or the equally delapitated rural town/exurb.

Basically our entire policy is focused on the lily white Suburbs, and centralized on the gated communities that the ones with true wealth sequester themselves in.

And that is the discussion the people who live in those places do not want us all to have, because that might mean the focus on society becomes a holistic one, instead of one only focused on what THEY want.

/ why yes I am making a class war argument
// the wealthy are winning and the suburbanites are their foot soldiers
/// Don't be surprised when bricks start flying through windows like they do about every 30-40 years...


I think the general idea, even though the article doesn't explicitly mention it, is that if you can manage to rectify a lot of the issues that affect poor black Americans the solution will rectify a lot of the issues with poor white Americans as well.  The geographical areas of concern are a little different, since extremely poor whites tend to be from sparsely populated rural areas, whereas we've managed to concentrate poor blacks in dense urban areas, but the underlying issues are the same: it's by design.
2014-05-25 01:27:00 AM  
2 votes:

Lsherm: You know, even as a resident Fark conservative troll, nothing in that article can be dismissed out of hand.  In fact, it's a fantastic basis for actually having an adult conversation about racism in the US, the legacy of it, and how to treat the repercussions that still exist today.  We aren't going to get anywhere denying that there isn't a structural, institutional bias against black Americans that exists today in a barely less destructive form than has existed for the entire history of the country.  Everything from how schools are funded to how wealth is accumulated is designed to disproportionately affect black Americans negatively, and if we don't at least acknowledge that, then we're going to be stuck with bullshiat "solutions" that treat symptoms instead of fixing the problem.  Forced busing treated a symptom, and affirmative action treats a symptom, but there are very few good suggestions about solving the actual problem.

Think about it this way: an inner-city urban "yute" is statistically all but guaranteed to be farked for life.  You might reach 1-2% who manage to escape the cycle of poverty if you're lucky.  Outside of getting adopted at birth, that's by design.  They are born poor, go to underfunded schools because schools are primarily funded with local taxes, live in neighborhoods with no economic base beyond illegal trade, and that's all by design.  Those neighborhoods exist because that's where more privileged people decided they were going to live.

And he's even hitting the nail on the head about reparations.  He's not asking for direct payment to make up for past sins, he's asking to use public money to fundamentally change the system that churns out, for lack of a better term, legacy life failures.

All in all, it was a very well written article that at least outlines the HOW of institutional racism.


And guess what, the poor whites who live in trailer parks in Bumfark, Arkansas are just as royally screwed as the poor black that lives in the middle of South Central.

But we don't EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discuss how to rectify the institutional biases and outright denigration of those who are born in the delapitaed urban core or the equally delapitated rural town/exurb.

Basically our entire policy is focused on the lily white Suburbs, and centralized on the gated communities that the ones with true wealth sequester themselves in.

And that is the discussion the people who live in those places do not want us all to have, because that might mean the focus on society becomes a holistic one, instead of one only focused on what THEY want.

/ why yes I am making a class war argument
// the wealthy are winning and the suburbanites are their foot soldiers
/// Don't be surprised when bricks start flying through windows like they do about every 30-40 years...
2014-05-25 01:25:48 AM  
2 votes:
Nice to see an interesting and thoughtful article on Fark, though I wish I hadn't bothered to read the comments. For some reason, certain individuals seem to have a recurring issue where they confuse guilt ("White" or otherwise) with empathy, a quality they are apparently lacking.
2014-05-25 01:18:02 AM  
2 votes:
Abox: Seriously?  There are people who think blacks have been given NO extra help ever?


Let me put it to you this way. Are you a football fan? If so, are you familiar with the concept of a "make up call"...? I'll paint a scenario for you:

We start the game and the black team is already down 35 points before the first kickoff. But okay, fine. We'll try for the miracle comeback. Then on the very first play from scrimmage...every player on the white team gang tackles our quarterback, breaks his arms, his legs, and severs his spine...then they do the exact same thing to our back up quarterbacks. The white team then scores another 49 unanswered points. But somewhere in the 3rd quarter, the white team realizes this has gotten completely out of hand. They start to feel bad for running up the score. So what do they do? They penalize themselves 15 yards on the ensuing kickoff.

And with that they say: "You're welcome. Now let's play some football and no more damn whining, ya hear!"
2014-05-25 01:08:35 AM  
2 votes:
i apologize in advance to fark server admins for potentially crashing the machine that handles my ignore list
2014-05-25 01:05:19 AM  
2 votes:
Fer chrissakes... it's not about you or some sins-of-the-father accounting, but you'd know that IF YOU READ THE BEAUTIFULLY-WRITTEN ARTICLE YOU ILLITERATE SHRIEKBAGS.
2014-05-25 01:00:15 AM  
2 votes:
Hey NASA, you just burnt up a shuttle on re-entry! There's scrap metal and pieces of dead people fallin outta the sky!

NO WE UTTERLY REFUSE TO EXAMINE OUR FLAWED SAFETY CULTURE NO NO NO WAAH

WE WON'T ATTEMPT TO FIX ANYTHING EITHER YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GUILT TRIP US.


Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.
2014-05-25 12:53:04 AM  
2 votes:

moothemagiccow: //dnrtfa
//tl;dr


This was posted upthread, but for anyone who wants to look like they RTFA when they didn't, try this:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/05/22/314881767/how-to-tell -i f-someones-actually-read-ta-nehisi-coates-essay
2014-05-25 12:44:03 AM  
2 votes:
This thread is like a giant honeypot for racist farkheads. Filled with delicious, sticky honey.
2014-05-25 12:43:46 AM  
2 votes:

Address on Civil Rights (June 11, 1963)
John Fitzgerald Kennedy

Kennedy speaks from the Oval Office in response to the National Guard being sent
to protect African American students at the University of Alabama.




Good evening, my fellow citizens:

This afternoon, following a series of threats and defiant statements, the presence of Alabama National Guardsmen was required on the University of Alabama to carry out the final and unequivocal order of the United States District Court of the Northern District of Alabama. That order called for the admission of two clearly qualified young Alabama residents who happened to have been born Negro.

That they were admitted peacefully on the campus is due in good measure to the conduct of the students of the University of Alabama, who met their responsibilities in a constructive way.

I hope that every American, regardless of where he lives, will stop and examine his conscience about this and other related incidents. This Nation was founded by men of many nations and backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal, and that the rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.

Today we are committed to a worldwide struggle to promote and protect the rights of all who wish to be free. And when Americans are sent to Viet-Nam or West Berlin, we do not ask for whites only. It ought to be possible, therefore, for American students of any color to attend any public institution they select without having to be backed up by troops.

It ought to be possible for American consumers of any color to receive equal service in places of public accommodation, such as hotels and restaurants and theaters and retail stores, without being forced to resort to demonstrations in the street, and it ought to be possible for American citizens of any color to register and to vote in a free election without interference or fear of reprisal.

It ought to be possible, in short, for every American to enjoy the privileges of being American without regard to his race or his color. In short, every American ought to have the right to be treated as he would wish to be treated, as one would wish his children to be treated. But this is not the case.

The Negro baby born in America today, regardless of the section of the Nation in which he is born, has about one-half as much chance of completing a high school as a white baby born in the same place on the same day, one-third as much chance of completing college, one-third as much chance of becoming a professional man, twice as much chance of becoming unemployed, about one-seventh as much chance of earning $10,000 a year, a life expectancy which is 7 years shorter, and the prospects of earning only half as much.

This is not a sectional issue. Difficulties over segregation and discrimination exist in every city, in every State of the Union, producing in many cities a rising tide of discontent that threatens the public safety. Nor is this a partisan issue. In a time of domestic crisis men of good will and generosity should be able to unite regardless of party or politics. This is not even a legal or legislative issue alone. It is better to settle these matters in the courts than on the streets, and new laws are needed at every level, but law alone cannot make men see right.

We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. It is as old as the scriptures and is as clear as the American Constitution.

The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated. If an American, because his skin is dark, cannot eat lunch in a restaurant open to the public, if he cannot send his children to the best public school available, if he cannot vote for the public officials who represent him, if, in short, he cannot enjoy the full and free life which all of us want, then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place? Who among us would then be content with the counsels of patience and delay?

One hundred years of delay have passed since President Lincoln freed the slaves, yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They are not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They are not yet freed from social and economic oppression.

And this Nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all its citizens are free.

We preach freedom around the world, and we mean it, and we cherish our freedom here at home, but are we to say to the world, and much more importantly, to each other that this is a land of the free except for the Negroes; that we have no second-class citizens except Negroes; that we have no class or cast system, no ghettoes, no master race except with respect to Negroes?

Now the time has come for this Nation to fulfill its promise. The events in Birmingham and elsewhere have so increased the cries for equality that no city or State or legislative body can prudently choose to ignore them.

The fires of frustration and discord are burning in every city, North and South, where legal remedies are not at hand. Redress is sought in the streets, in demonstrations, parades, and protests which create tensions and threaten violence and threaten lives.

We face, therefore, a moral crisis as a country and as a people. It cannot be met by repressive police action. It cannot be left to increased demonstrations in the streets. It cannot be quieted by token moves or talk. It is a time to act in the Congress, in your State and local legislative body and, above all, in all of our daily lives.

It is not enough to pin the blame on others, to say this is a problem of one section of the country or another, or deplore the fact that we face. A great change is at hand, and our task, our obligation, is to make that revolution, that change, peaceful and constructive for all.

Those who do nothing are inviting shame as well as violence. Those who act boldly are recognizing right as well as reality.

Next week I shall ask the Congress of the United States to act, to make a commitment it has not fully made in this century to the proposition that race has no place in American life or law. The Federal judiciary has upheld that proposition in a series of forthright cases. The executive branch has adopted that proposition in the conduct of its affairs, including the employment of Federal personnel, the use of Federal facilities, and the sale of federally financed housing.

But there are other necessary measures which only the Congress can provide, and they must be provided at this session. The old code of equity law under which we live commands for every wrong a remedy, but in too many communities, in too many parts of the country, wrongs are inflicted on Negro citizens and there are no remedies at law. Unless the Congress acts, their only remedy is in the street.

I am, therefore, asking the Congress to enact legislation giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities which are open to the public-hotels, restaurants, theaters, retail stores, and similar establishments.

This seems to me to be an elementary right. Its denial is an arbitrary indignity that no American in 1963 should have to endure, but many do.

I have recently met with scores of business leaders urging them to take voluntary action to end this discrimination and I have been encouraged by their response, and in the last 2 weeks over 75 cities have seen progress made in desegregating these kinds of facilities. But many are unwilling to act alone, and for this reason, nationwide legislation is needed if we are to move this problem from the streets to the courts.

I am also asking Congress to authorize the Federal Government to participate more fully in lawsuits designed to end segregation in public education. We have succeeded in persuading many districts to de-segregate voluntarily. Dozens have admitted Negroes without violence. Today a Negro is attending a State-supported institution in every one of our 50 States, but the pace is very slow.

Too many Negro children entering segregated grade schools at the time of the Supreme Court's decision 9 years ago will enter segregated high schools this fall, having suffered a loss which can never be restored. The lack of an adequate education denies the Negro a chance to get a decent job.

The orderly implementation of the Supreme Court decision, therefore, cannot be left solely to those who may not have the economic resources to carry the legal action or who may be subject to harassment.

Other features will be also requested, including greater protection for the right to vote. But legislation, I repeat, cannot solve this problem alone. It must be solved in the homes of every American in every community across our country.

In this respect, I want to pay tribute to those citizens North and South who have been working in their communities to make life better for all. They are acting not out of a sense of legal duty but out of a sense of human decency.

Like our soldiers and sailors in all parts of the world they are meeting freedom's challenge on the firing line, and I salute them for their honor and their courage.

My fellow Americans, this is a problem which faces us all-in every city of the North as well as the South. Today there are Negroes unemployed, two or three times as many compared to whites, inadequate in education, moving into the large cities, unable to find work, young people particularly out of work without hope, denied equal rights, denied the opportunity to eat at a restaurant or lunch counter or go to a movie theater, denied the right to a decent education, denied almost today the right to attend a State university even though qualified. It seems to me that these are matters which concern us all, not merely Presidents or Congressmen or Governors, but every citizen of the United States.

This is one country.

It has become one country because all of us and all the people who came here had an equal chance to develop their talents.

We cannot say to 10 percent of the population that you can't have that right; that your children can't have the chance to develop whatever talents they have; that the only way that they are going to get their rights is to go into the streets and demonstrate. I think we owe them and we owe ourselves a better country than that.

Therefore, I am asking for your help in making it easier for us to move ahead and to provide the kind of equality of treatment which we would want ourselves; to give a chance for every child to be educated to the limit of his talents.

As I have said before, not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or an equal motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves.

We have a right to expect that the Negro community will be responsible, will uphold the law, but they have a right to expect that the law will be fair, that the Constitution will be color blind, as Justice Harlan said at the turn of the century.

This is what we are talking about and this is a matter which concerns this country and what it stands for, and in meeting it I ask the support of all our citizens.

Thank you very much.
2014-05-25 12:36:44 AM  
2 votes:

I Browse: Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:

[www.leftycartoons.com image 650x511]


Seriously?  There are people who think blacks have been given NO extra help ever?
2014-05-25 12:30:20 AM  
2 votes:

rhiannon: /read the article
//farkers reading articles. Good one.


I think this one is just more frustrating than most because the article is all "this isn't just about slavery and it isn't about cutting checks to black people" and the posters that seem most upset keep saying "I never owned any slaves and how are we going to cut a check to every black person?" like they've come up with a brilliant counter.
2014-05-25 12:29:03 AM  
2 votes:
This is a thread full of idiots.

R
T
F
A
2014-05-25 12:24:01 AM  
2 votes:

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: Black people should not look to whites for charity forever. What we lack is self help and self reliance. We are always wanting somebody to do something for us. As a race we are too envious, malicious and superficial, and because of this we keep ourselves back------MARCUS GARVEY (from his lecture at Collegiate Hall in Kingston Jamaica , given in 1915)


You've been waiting for the crumbs to fall off the white man's table, but God is going to take the white man's bread away, and force you to do for self. The only reason you are following the white man, is because you are looking for crumbs, and when you find out he has no more crumbs or bread to give you. Then you will turn him loose like a hot potato------MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)

How about you read the article?

so you don't think these quotes from Malcolm X and Marcus Gravey to be important to the article?


The article is stating that due to institutional forces, the bootstraps model for advancement has largely been a crock of shiat for Blacks.

Problem today, it's now a crock for Just about everyone.
2014-05-25 12:20:39 AM  
2 votes:

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


No... not in the traditional sense of the word.

Affirmative action and Welfare are post-scriptive measures to try and alleviate the after effects of institutionalized racism.

The fact we have these programs and Blacks are largely only treading water as a collective shows how awful our position was at the start of the Great Society and how disadvantaged it is today still.

To the point where people legitimately believe that Blacks as a group are d simply inferior humans and should be left to rot on the vine until they magically figure it out, whatever it is.

And my suspicion is that the it is this phrase: "Know your role, and shut your mouth."
2014-05-25 12:03:07 AM  
2 votes:

Babwa Wawa: It's not the suck-the-wind-out-of-your-lungs work it has been built up to be, but it's a pretty methodical and well-organized piece of work.  Its greatest impact is that it thoroughly dismantles the fantasy that a lot of people live in.


I for one found it rather educational. I didn't know anything about the "on contract" buying, or the fact that it was actually the Federal government that set the districts eligible for loan assistance based on racial makeup of the neighborhood.
2014-05-24 11:57:51 PM  
2 votes:

ox45tallboy: I really want to see someone who read the article provide an argument as to why we cannot at least study the effects of institutionalized racism in the United States. What harm it did (and still does today), and what it would take to undo that harm.


Well, you and I will be waiting.   Hold my hand - we can do this.  Together.

Seriously, I had held off on reading this until this morning.  I really despise it when stuff is built up like this article is, and then I'm treated to something obvious, pedantic, or both.

It's not the suck-the-wind-out-of-your-lungs work it has been built up to be, but it's a pretty methodical and well-organized piece of work.  Its greatest impact is that it thoroughly dismantles the fantasy that a lot of people live in.
2014-05-24 11:49:35 PM  
2 votes:

phenn: Dusk-You-n-Me: phenn: No. Not in any common sense way under the sun am I responsible for the actions of others.

Your country is responsible. It was founded and nurtured on white supremacy. All the author is asking is that we recognize and study this fact.

My country? MY country?

Look. So far as I can reconcile, I was just born a little baby. I had nothing to do with greedy, dominant assholes who founded this or established that. They didn't do so under my direction, so my hands are relatively clean. K?

Sins of the father don't apply to me, to you or to anyone else alive or dead. You pay for your sins and I shall pay for mine. I see no usefulness or goodness that can come out of punishing me for something I didn't to to people I never knew for reasons I never understood.


You are living within the system they set up for you just by going about your business. You are being asked to acknowledge that, not to take responsibility for the sins of people who aren't alive any longer.

Is acknowledgement of facts really such a big deal to folks like you?
2014-05-24 11:48:51 PM  
2 votes:

Captain Dan: Also, don't be naive.  This is about money.  That's why Coates introduces the monetary figures about the impact of slavery


Slavery is a small part of it. The point is much broader than that.
2014-05-24 11:46:03 PM  
2 votes:

OgreMagi: I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


Says the guy whose home sits on land that used to be occupied by First Nations tribes a few hundred years ago.

You may not have fought the war but you enjoy the spoils.
2014-05-24 11:44:25 PM  
2 votes:

phenn: No. Not in any common sense way under the sun am I responsible for the actions of others.


Your country is responsible. It was founded and nurtured on white supremacy. All the author is asking is that we recognize and study this fact.
2014-05-24 11:41:03 PM  
2 votes:

ox45tallboy: Babwa Wawa: That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.

I think that's what's raising so much controversy - in order to gauge what is needed to make something whole, you must start with acknowledging what damage has been done.

It would be a huuuuuuge thing for America to at least acknowledge the institutionalized racism in its public policy for its entire history.


I get the feeling that you may have read this article. :-).

It is exactly that - racism, institutionalized in public policy - which begs to be reckoned with.  And TFA's author doesn't even touch the war on drugs.  To do so would have watered down his argument, but in reality is the extenuation of that heritage over the last 30 years.

I would love to see what he might say about that topic.  Wait, I could see what he thinks about it in general, but hesitates to pass judgement without further study.
2014-05-24 11:40:06 PM  
2 votes:

mark12A: Stop whining already. Slavery happened, can't change the past, get over it, move on. The more you obsess over it, the more it distracts you from getting on with your life.

There will be no reparations.


We can't move on as long as bigoted assholes like Cliven Bundy get shilled by mainstream media outlets.
2014-05-24 11:37:16 PM  
2 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm an American.

And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.


Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.
2014-05-24 11:32:50 PM  
2 votes:
<yawn>   Failure to accept responsibility for the failings of the black community by the black community gets tiresome......Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left, it's important to remember that they farkng left....If a large percentage of the African American community offered to leave the country and never return, they'd get a bunch of cash/shiat from White folks....
2014-05-24 11:30:17 PM  
2 votes:

vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]


Norman Rockwell could paint corny wholesome Americana with the best of them, but when he laid down the hammer, he farking laid it down.  That painting, as stylized and as intentionally string-pulling as it is, gives me the chills every single time.
2014-05-24 11:26:19 PM  
2 votes:
Well, they should start with the original slavers who sold their ancestors to the highest bidder.

But realistically, they should be good Christians and just forgive and forget. You don't see Asians walking around complaining about the legacy of slavery; it's counterproductive.

Plus, you're ceding power to the ancestors of the people who enslaved your ancestors, so you're being enslaved twice.
2014-05-24 11:25:32 PM  
2 votes:
Is this sponsored by Nike and Beats headphones? Because that's where the money will go.
2014-05-24 11:23:04 PM  
2 votes:
www.normanadams.org


Freeloading blacks want handouts. MY family never owned slaves!
2014-05-24 11:22:08 PM  
2 votes:

Bith Set Me Up: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.

As far as conservatives are concerned, black people and poor people are one and the same.


With this in mind let's have the "photo ID needed to vote" discussion and see where that goes.
2014-05-24 11:18:39 PM  
2 votes:

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.


As far as conservatives are concerned, black people and poor people are one and the same.
2014-05-24 11:18:25 PM  
2 votes:

Jim_Callahan: // Historically, it's taken disenfranchised populations a generations or perhaps two to go from legally granted equal footing to having actual economic equal footing and enfranchisement. We've seen it with women, the Irish, etc. The only historical example of reparations for anything we really have is the founding of Israel, and that's... not really a strong argument in favor. Maybe a good argument against..


Um.. you do know the point of the article is that it points out that the disenfranchisement continues to this day? point.
2014-05-24 11:17:53 PM  
2 votes:

Babwa Wawa: DubtodaIll: Yeah, money heals all wounds.

That's false.  In the same sense that "money can't heal any wounds" is false.


I forgot to use a sarcastrophe there. Obviously money can only buy things. The entire argument for reparations does not hold water. It will not make anyone whole. You think more handouts is going to do anything to improve the plight of black people in America? The only way to success is through the achievements of your own work and effort. Guilting someone into giving you things is the way con men make their money.
2014-05-24 11:17:48 PM  
2 votes:

Yogimus: Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.


Again, RTFA. Oppression against blacks did not stop in 1865. It continues to this day.
2014-05-24 11:17:28 PM  
2 votes:
His interview about this article on Moyers is really good. I recommend it, especially if you're critical of this essay. Link
2014-05-24 11:17:06 PM  
2 votes:
Yeah, I'm almost more liberal than the libbyest lib that ever libed and yeah, no thanks.

If anything just make confederate flag waving dickhead states in the south pay up, my ancestors were part of burning Atlanta to the ground and I'm sad they didn't burn harder and wider.
2014-05-24 11:13:58 PM  
2 votes:

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.


Another person commenting on the article who can't be bothered to read it.
2014-05-24 11:13:02 PM  
2 votes:

DubtodaIll: Yeah, money heals all wounds.


That's false.  In the same sense that "money can't heal any wounds" is false.
2014-05-24 11:09:41 PM  
2 votes:
A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"
2014-05-24 11:05:13 PM  
2 votes:

itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?


...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?
2014-05-22 03:38:33 PM  
2 votes:
tl;dr: black writer wants welfare

/I should catch a few with that.
2014-05-27 03:09:48 AM  
1 vote:

Kittypie070: It NEEDS to be approached. taurusowner knows it. I know it. You know it.


I agree, we should not be cutting a check to anyone who claims their ancestors were the victims of slavery.

But it seems like we all could agree that the reason why things turned out so bad is because of these ideologies in our past, and digging in and saying "I refuse because it wasn't me" is still obstructionist.

What if our taxes got raised 20% to make education across the board a reality, and help stay-at-home moms raising children--the future, in other words.

I don't want to hear that shiat "I refuse to help because it wasn't me/mine/etc."

If you live in this country, you have an obligation to support measures which might improve it.

That's what "reparations" really is about--coming to terms with the past behaviors of the human race and resolving to change the way we do things.
2014-05-27 01:51:14 AM  
1 vote:
I...um, actually think taurusowner has a legitimate point.

He definitely realizes that there is this huge problem.

There are a little over 300 million Americans, and we can afford to let the relative minority of reluctant-or-angry-when-challenged on this particular issue come around on their own time.

I do believe that taurusowner IS engaging with this dreadful thing adequately in his own way.

People can and do get very resentful if they think they are getting guilt tripped or shoved forcefully into accepting an idea they already are partly engaging with on their own.

It's the reason I despise those who attempt to guilt trip me about Hiroshima, because I already know more than enough about the history, the motives, the reasons, and the feelings of the people of Hiroshima themselves. I am VERY damned well acquainted with ALL of it.

It's also the reason I adamantly refuse to listen to many of the fringe/extremist enviros even if they actually somehow manage to come up with valid points, because of their damned self righteous overbearing borderline hysterical guilt tripping.

Now...I am not saying that Farkers on the side of the article's author are engaging in hysteria. I'm using my own examples as a set of object lessons of how not to Meryl Streep people with this.

It NEEDS to be approached. taurusowner knows it. I know it. You know it.

I'm trying to offer a valid mindset that can benefit everyone who wants to participate in good faith, whether they want to only dip a toe in, splash around some, or jump all the way in feet first.
2014-05-27 01:27:20 AM  
1 vote:

odinsposse: As long as every conversation about our history starts with having to stridently assure everyone that they shouldn't feel any blame and nothing is anyone's fault we aren't moving forward in a useful way. If no one bears any responsibility then it's easy to say "Hey, everyone involved is long dead so there can't be any problem anymore" even though that is clearly not true.


Although if you read the article, it's plain that many people who are responsible for both enacting and following racist policies are still alive and well, if we can pretend for a moment that they're all dead, that leaves us with the question:

Who is going to clean up the mess? You can't just leave the mess there, it's wrong. It has to go. The ones who were responsible for creating the mess are long gone, but the mess isn't going away. If you want to live in a country without a mess in it, you've got to help keep it clean.

I don't want to live in a country with racial and economic disparity, therefore I feel I am responsible for doing something about it. Even if that means just voting for people who have a plan to clean up the mess, it's better than sitting around saying, "It was like that when I got here, I'm not cleaning it up."
2014-05-26 09:21:53 PM  
1 vote:

taurusowner: Ok, as long as they're also willing to plainly admit that most of the people who did those wrong things are dead, and most people who are currently alive have no responsibility for it. I'm all about fixing real problems, but fark you if you ever expect me to admit to being guilty of something that I had no part in. And I think that's where a lot of the resistance to this sort of thing stems from. There is a very strong reluctance on the other side to just flat out say "I know nearly all white people alive today had nothing to do with the racist crimes of the past and I don't hold them responsible" AND "a great many white people alive today do NOT benefit from any sort of white privilege, and I would never try to deny them opportunities or force them to go through hardships to make up for the hardships my people went through in the past"


All of that was covered in the article.

It's not about admitting you were guilty, it's about fixing the problem. The dead people who caused the problem aren't going to rise up from the grave and fix it, so who should? We'll all be better off once it's fixed, so let's get to it.

taurusowner: Stop holding white people alive today responsible, and stop putting forth "solutions" that help blacks by hurting whites or taking away opportunities that should be equally available to everyone. So those two thing and you'd have a lot more people on board. But so far, most black leaders don't want to say or do any of that. And that's why they don't have as much support as they feel they deserve.


This is why so many people are saying this is a great article that got to the root of the problem. I don't have "white guilt" from having read it, I have human empathy. Coates actually says on multiple occasions that programs aimed at racial justice should have a net benefit of helping people of all races.

The greatest thing about Rep. Conyers' bill is that anything it recommends will likely affect the poor of all races, which in turn will help the middle class of all races, which, believe it or not, will help the rich. Social justice is a Good Thing for all concerned, except those who feel that it is their "right" to rule over or be better than others.

Just to give you an example of one plan that might have merit: make it so that providing an education to everyone who wants to learn, as much as they are able to learn, is the responsibility of everyone. This will have a drastic effect on the status quo. And we really wouldn't be paying more than what goes into higher education now, if you account for all of the ridiculous interest rates on student loans.

Can you imagine the businesses that would love to set up shop somewhere where there is a highly educated population, capable of tackling just about anything you throw at them, all of them ready to work and not suffering from crushing debt? They might even be willing to pay higher taxes if the business people know that their children will get this same education!

This will disproportionately be better for black people, as they are less likely to be able to afford college, and more likely to be suffering from higher debt. But it will be better for everyone.
2014-05-26 08:47:52 PM  
1 vote:

ox45tallboy: That's it. That's what he's saying. The first step in making things right is to examine and identify what exactly is wrong. Most people (myself included, and I think Mr. Coates as well) do not believe that simply "transferring wealth to black people" is any kind of solution - but we can't know this until we understand the problem. "Reparations" doesn't mean that white people should write checks to black people, it means the country should fix what it did wrong.


Ok, as long as they're also willing to plainly admit that most of the people who did those wrong things are dead, and most people who are currently alive have no responsibility for it. I'm all about fixing real problems, but fark you if you ever expect me to admit to being guilty of something that I had no part in. And I think that's where a lot of the resistance to this sort of thing stems from. There is a very strong reluctance on the other side to just flat out say "I know nearly all white people alive today had nothing to do with the racist crimes of the past and I don't hold them responsible" AND "a great many white people alive today do NOT benefit from any sort of white privilege, and I would never try to deny them opportunities or force them to go through hardships to make up for the hardships my people went through in the past"

Stop holding white people alive today responsible, and stop putting forth "solutions" that help blacks by hurting whites or taking away opportunities that should be equally available to everyone. So those two thing and you'd have a lot more people on board. But so far, most black leaders don't want to say or do any of that. And that's why they don't have as much support as they feel they deserve.
2014-05-26 04:46:12 PM  
1 vote:

liam76: I am saying you lied about the govt doing nothing to address the effects of discrimination, and you lied about the laws effects of the EEOC on private enterprise.


The idea that the Civil Rights Act somehow waved a magic wand and made black people equal is silly, and was clearly ripped to shreds in the article. The Civil Rights Act mainly said that the government wasn't going to force everyone, even non-racists, to act racist anymore.

The EEOC is better than nothing, but as the post immediately before you pointed out, it's still much, much more difficult for a black person to get a job than a white person. This is why I referred you to that post.

This is precisely why the study suggested by the article is needed - people actually hold the views you have expressed, and call other people "liars" when the facts are presented.
2014-05-26 03:32:27 PM  
1 vote:

ox45tallboy: Tatterdemalian: using some magical technique that mostly involves transfer of wealth to a duly designated representative of African-America

Yep, you didn't read it.

Spoiler alert: the article isn't about transferring wealth or writing checks to black people or anything like that. It's about examining the long term effects of Federal public policy (aka laws) and how they have negatively affected black people, and how this has resulted in black people being poorer despite the tremendous amount of wealth they have generated - and therefore current law that negatively affects the poor disproportionately affects black people.

By fixing the problems that currently negatively affect the poor, it will help everyone, not just black people. But it will help black people more, since they're currently disproportionately affected because of prior injuries that resulted from everything from Jim Crow to Post-WWII Federal Housing policy.

That's it. That's what he's saying. The first step in making things right is to examine and identify what exactly is wrong. Most people (myself included, and I think Mr. Coates as well) do not believe that simply "transferring wealth to black people" is any kind of solution - but we can't know this until we understand the problem. "Reparations" doesn't mean that white people should write checks to black people, it means the country should fix what it did wrong.


I find it funny that you keep flailing away at anyone that in the slightest bit disagrees with you.  All I said is that the article didn't live up to its title.  It made no case for reparations.  It only made the case that the effects of past policies should be studied. Rather unconvincingly actually.  The author does not make a compelling argument that the outcomes of any past studies aren't known.  Since they seem to be known, why the need for more studies?  And since the outcome of the studies IS known, why can't the author have the wherewithal to say what he actually wants done about it. Put it this way, if you in college try to make a persuasive paper, and your point is that "more studies on a subject should be done" you will get an F.  Because you aren't persuading anyone of anything.

We all know what the author is hoping that those studies will show reparations should be done.  What I find myself wondering, is that if the studies don't show it, will the author will ask for more studies and more studies until he gets one he likes?  Kind of like the standard way you get anything now a days.  If you don't want a pipeline, you say you need more studies.  If you don't want a building built somewhere, you say the environmental impact needs to be studied more.  After all, how could anyone disagree with a study?  What kind of reparations are being sought?

I can't think of a topic already studied more than race relations at this point. What will be the point of these new studies? Or is it just studies for the sake of studying things?  The article was interesting, but fails in the end at living up to its title.
2014-05-26 03:05:39 PM  
1 vote:
COMALite J

Result: in the group where the only difference was the names, the "white-sounding" names were over twice as likely to get callbacks (remember, this is with all else being absolutely equal!). In the second group, the difference was much less pronounced, but it still turned out that, again, all else being absolutely equal, a white felon ex-con was still slightly more likely to get callbacks than a law-abiding black!!

Eh..."white people liking white people" is a bit outside of the scope of issues our government could reasonably address, IMO.
2014-05-26 03:01:53 PM  
1 vote:

liam76: You are claiming the us govt never addressed it.

The fact that they wrote laws to try and fix it means they addressed it.

The law isn't perfect and the situation 'fixed' but the givt has addressed it.


A law "fixes" nothing. It is the will of those affected by the law that will "fix" things.
Just like laws against murder, they do not work unless society, and every individual within that society, agrees that murder is wrong as well as setting up systems to prevent murder wherever possible, and punishing those who murder. Laws are simply words on paper people give them meaning. Unfortunately those words have been ignored whenever possible by those who seek to do the opposite.

This is where society's self examination comes into play, to look at what is wrong despite the words on paper and endeavour to fix it. That has not happened yet, despite the best efforts of people who write words on pieces of paper.
2014-05-26 02:56:39 PM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: I'm not saying that whites had it as hard as blacks but there tends to be a opinion during these discussions that whites as a whole had it easy and that slavery was only good for the white race in america. There are still 8.4 million whites living in deep poverty in the U.S. regardless of what percent this is of the overall population this is still an enormous amount of people that are not being talked about in the mass media.

at least 20 million americans are living in deep poverty in this country and I bet we spend more money on our pets than me do on helping the poor.

Yes, TFA covered that. And indeed, the institutionalized racism against blacks affected and still affects poorer whites as well (especially since they can't be so overt about the actual race, they have to cast a larger net that entangles in the poorer whites as well).

Fark like a Barsoomian: Oblio13: COMALite J: Where's the city that was attacked from the air (the first U.S. city ever to have that happen to it, and the only one until 9/11) for being Irish or Italian...

Well, there's Jeffery, Sharples and Blair in West Virginia. Coal miners tried to unionize, the mine owners had professional strike breakers machine gun a tent city - men, women and children - and then the President ordered the Army to intervene with bombers. You can even Google up a pic of some miners holding one of the dud bombs. Google the "Ludlow Massacre" in Colorado for another good example a couple years later.

The point is, blacks have had it bad at times, but they don't have a monopoly on it. Racism used to be fire hoses and police dogs. Now it's a clerk being rude to Oprah when she looks at a $30,000 purse in Switzerland.

Looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

is what you mean. I'd never heard of this either.

Thanks for that link. Every Teabagger who white-knights the Noble Job Creators™ and who think that the 99% (or, more properly, 99.99%) started Class Warfare against the Noble 1% (or, more properly, 0.01%) needs to read this. The Brothers Koch and their ilk are the modern-day successors of the evil robber barons who did such things.

Fark like a Barsoomian: COMALite J: Chinese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_massacre_of_1871
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Springs_Massacre

/Hadn't heard of some of your examples.
//I didn't know things got that bad.

As bad as those are, those appear to be mainly riots erupting from heightened tensions, not organized campaigns of murderous mass disenfranchisement backed or even perpetrated by actual political officeholders and "law enforcement" as my examples are. I wasn't talking about mere riots ߟ if so, my list would've been considerably longer.

The Blair Mountain one I'll grant.

Remember, all of this is after the Civil War, Emancipation Proclamation, and Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments.


To All: One thing TFA only briefly touched on was how a black college graduate with no criminal record has roughly the same chance of employment as a white college graduate with a criminal record.

I read up on this some years ago. Turns out some black college professors wanted to prove to their students that, despite how rigged the game still was against them, they would be able to overcome at least some of the effects of racism by being law-abiding educated young people. So, they performed experiments in which they faked pairs of résumés and job applications that were identical in every respect (education, employment history, all other aspects that have anything to do with actual qualifications and should have anything to do with employability) except for one thing: one of the pair had a "white-sounding" name, the other a "black-sounding" name.

On many of the pairs, there was a second difference as well: the "white-sounding" name application had checked the "Yes" checkbox for, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" The "black-sounding" name had answered "No" to that question.

Result: in the group where the only difference was the names, the "white-sounding" names were over twice as likely to get callbacks (remember, this is with all else being absolutely equal!). In the second group, the difference was much less pronounced, but it still turned out that, again, all else being absolutely equal, a white felon ex-con was still slightly more likely to get callbacks than a law-abiding black!!

This, mind you, was not in the Deep South, nor pre-Civil Rights Amendment. This was in Chicago, Milwaukee, NYC, etc., in years beginning with a "2"!
2014-05-26 12:55:52 PM  
1 vote:

Tatterdemalian: But you DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE! We know this because if you had you would be one of us and never disagree with anything we say ever again!


Actually, it's because posters are bringing up points already addressed and answered in the article. Legitimate criticism of the author's methods, presentation, or conclusion would be one thing; arguing against something he's not saying doesn't help. Arguing that the author is wrong because X, when the author is clearly in favor of X, doesn't help, either.

I have yet to see any actual refutation of what the author proposes, but I've seen quite a few critical attacks on what people who haven't bothered reading the article think he's proposing. If more people read this, we could have a discussion about the subject, rather than the imagined "You want to take my white money and give it to black people" or "white people had it rough, too, why do you want to punish everyone for the sins of the few" sort of nonsense.
2014-05-26 12:52:59 PM  
1 vote:

COMALite J: Where's the city that was attacked from the air (the first U.S. city ever to have that happen to it, and the only one until 9/11) for being Irish or Italian...


Well, there's Jeffery, Sharples and Blair in West Virginia. Coal miners tried to unionize, the mine owners had professional strike breakers machine gun a tent city - men, women and children - and then the President ordered the Army to intervene with bombers. You can even Google up a pic of some miners holding one of the dud bombs. Google the "Ludlow Massacre" in Colorado for another good example a couple years later.

The point is, blacks have had it bad at times, but they don't have a monopoly on it. Racism used to be fire hoses and police dogs. Now it's a clerk being rude to Oprah when she looks at a $30,000 purse in Switzerland.
2014-05-26 12:27:44 PM  
1 vote:

Director_Mr: Obviously he wants something else done, what is it? Until you know, he hasn't made the case for anything, because we don't know what he is making the case for.


Why are you in such a rush to get to the conclusion, whatever that may be? So that all this can be over? It's the journey that is most important, the self-examination this nation has never actually gone through concerning its treatment of black people. This thread and your attitude is a good example of this. That is what will make things right at least in part, and not money or laws or bills.

In that you continue to miss the point of the entire article... the path toward is more important than the arrival. It will take pain, although much less pain then the millions who have endured slavery, jim crow, miscegenation laws, sundown codes, lynchings and other treatments too horrible and numerous to list.

In your haste to get to the finish line you fail to count the steps. This is a marathon, and there will be sweat, and there will be ache, and there will be exhaustion, and there will be agony, but it must be done.
2014-05-26 10:48:14 AM  
1 vote:

Yogimus: Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.


Must be nice to be able to track your family's history.  Lot more difficult for that to happen when you're black in America.  In the south, most black births were not recorded.  Maybe I can find a bill of sale for my ancestor. Of course, names may have been changed cuz ancestors were given slave names (first and last).  I know, I will check Ancestry.com.  I am sure that they have all the bill of sales of the black families that were broken up. Would that work for you?   But you know, socialism.................
2014-05-26 10:37:58 AM  
1 vote:

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: The narrative is only blacks had it tough and whites skate through life.


No the narrative is that on average blacks have it tougher than whites in almost every aspect of life due historical and systemic racism and as such are statistically less likely to succeed. The important part is that It's true.
2014-05-26 08:48:27 AM  
1 vote:

whidbey: Waldo Pepper: I have to apologize. I did not understand that you use the fark threads as a way of feeling powerful and important. if I only I had known, well it's too late now. I made you feel weak and powerless.
cheer up the sun will come up tomorrow

No all you've done is confirm whatever suspicions I had of you. What is this, the 3rd or 4th denial/deflection/excuse, now?

Care to go for a 5th reason why you're afraid to comment?


Rhetorical question.


Wait,wait don't tell me! I think I know.

It is not difficult to recognize the 'Cassandra Complex' as soon as the following features are noted:
- Feeling of the certain important mission to accomplish;
- Constant warnings about the consequences of incorrect behavior;
- Permanent appeal to the moral principles and the common order;
- Ability to feel the grief of the other to the point that it becomes one`s own;
- Sufferings caused by the people`s ignorance and disobedience.

For your added pleasure, Whidbey.

*working to keep the brother down.
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 The history of white people did not start skinny jeans and i-phone aps.
Maybe if all history taught in school was more inclusive, rather than current diet of the fat white plantation owner watching over the 'darkies' in the field.

I think a big disconnect is that both white and black people are equally ignorant of their shared history.

 The narrative is only blacks had it tough and whites skate through life.
2014-05-26 12:56:58 AM  
1 vote:

ox45tallboy: Waldo Pepper: I think you just start throwing out idea and see what sticks with the majority of folks

any african-american currently on death row has their sentence commuted to life.

reduce any african-american in jail for minor drug charges immediately released. Same goes for minor prostitution charges

regardless of the law african american registered voters will not be subjected to voter id laws for the next 50 years.

MLK on the new dollar coin

total student loan forgiveness for any gov't student loans since 1980 (or however the loans work) for any loan for  african-american student.

How about instead, we just look at what current governmental policies are negatively affecting black people and change them?

Releasing black people charged with drug and prostitution offenses won't keep police from arresting more at a disproportionate rate. Commuting death sentences won't keep black people from disproportionately being put on death row. Student loan forgiveness won't help those college-educated people get a job. MLK on the dollar coin won't make a bit of difference when the problem is that black people aren't seeing those dollars.


It will take the realization that prisons are the new plantations, and needles the new nooses.
2014-05-26 12:56:27 AM  
1 vote:

Director_Mr: Well, in reality, reparations most likely would require a change in the constitution.  Making programs that only address the issues of one race seems to violate the law.  Not to mention penalizing someone for what their predecessors did.  I don't see how we could do it legally.


Those governmental policies that negatively affected one race were put into place Constitutionally.

Even today, the Supreme Court is upholding Voter ID laws that disproportionately affect black people. Members of Congress are demanding cuts to food stamp programs that disproportionately affect black people. Countrywide's policies of targeting poor black people in the run-up to the housing bubble were put into place with the full cooperation of the United States government.
2014-05-26 12:43:25 AM  
1 vote:

Director_Mr: Well, in reality, reparations most likely would require a change in the constitution.  Making programs that only address the issues of one race seems to violate the law.  Not to mention penalizing someone for what their predecessors did.  I don't see how we could do it legally.


If we have made it legal to do what we have done, logic would follow that it can be corrected using the same means.
2014-05-26 12:32:51 AM  
1 vote:

Director_Mr: In the context of how reparations is used in this article, the definition would be reparations: the payment of damages  :  ;  specifically :  compensation in money or materials payable by a defeated nation for damages to or expenditures sustained by another nation as a result of hostilities with the defeated nation -usually used in plural .  Perhaps in this case we weren't defeated, but its close enough.  While the damages were detailed in the article, the compensation wasn't specified. Until they are, its impossible to tell if its a viable solution or not.


The point he was making is that it can't be quantified until you break down each and every government policy regarding slavery and institutionalized racism, and show primary, secondary, and tertiary effects of that policy. John Conyers wants to do this. Most people in Congress do not.

The good thing is that calculating the negative effects of certain government policies shows us some things that we can do that really won't cost anything - such as changing a few current policies. The down side is that it's going to hurt a lot of people's feelings to have to face the way that they have personally benefited from past, and even present policies of the Federal Government that have been rather destructive to other people.
2014-05-26 12:18:04 AM  
1 vote:

Director_Mr: I found the article interesting, it just didn't live up to the title.  Whenever I hear this brought up, no one ever has a solid proposal as to what the reparations would be.  That suggests to me that while the idea of it sounds good, it will never happen.  Since it (at least at this point seems like it) will never happen, perhaps something else should be looked at to address African American poverty.  Looking toward things that will never happen to improve things isn't constructive for anyone.


Well, that was his point - you can't say what the reparations would be until you acknowledge exactly what you're providing reparations for.

You can't just demand "money" when you're involved in an automobile accident - you have to show what damage was done, how the accident happened, what kind of car you have, other possessions that were in the car, what kind of medical bills you have, what kind of long-term disability you may be suffering, how long you were out of work, etc.

This is what the author is proposing - let's take an honest look at what damage was done to black people by centuries of Federal policy, how the damage from former policies still affects black people (and poor people of all ethnic groups) today, and what current Federal policies still disproportionately affect black people in a negative way. Then we can discuss what we should do about it. I'm quite certain that we'll discover many things that can be done at almost no cost to anyone, but will change many peoples' lives for the better.
2014-05-26 12:04:02 AM  
1 vote:

Facetious_Speciest: Director_Mr

And so what reparations are being sought then?

I could be completely misreading the entire thing, but it seems to me that he's saying "let's look at the issues and see what might be done, and go from there."


That's what I gather as well. He's simply proposing using Federal money to study the effects of Federal policy. Rep. Conyers has introduced a bill every session to do this, but it won't even be considered because some people have been led to believe it means taking money from white people and giving it to black people, when that's not at all what it means.

If we can study the effects of certain Federal policies, we're likely to discover a few that can be easily reversed with negligible cost that will make things better for a lot of people. We'll probably also find some policy effects that are more difficult to rectify, and some that are simply impossible. However, even with the latter, just simply acknowledging that there is a problem, a wrongdoing was committed, and this wrongdoing caused X, even if X can't be fixed, the acknowledgement would go a long ways toward making sure that same mistake didn't happen again.
2014-05-25 11:58:09 PM  
1 vote:

Director_Mr: While the article is interesting, I find it more intriguing that he writes a huge article laying out the case for reparations, and then fails to detail what reparations he is seeking.


That isn't really a knock against the article. The article is just to get people to recognize that yes, black people have been screwed by the system and not even "Okay, well from now on we'll treat everyone equally" is good enough since it doesn't change the fact that blacks were severely handicapped up until the recent past. That's the first step. He even points to the next step, which is quantifying what the exact damage is and who is affected.

If he did put up specific policies then people would be arguing with the minutia of policy rather than paying attention to his main point which is that the racist policies of America have current and direct effects on the lives of black Americans.
2014-05-25 11:54:09 PM  
1 vote:

Director_Mr: wickedgrin: Director_Mr: While the article is interesting, I find it more intriguing that he writes a huge article laying out the case for reparations, and then fails to detail what reparations he is seeking.  This allows everyone to argue for or against his cause, without really knowing what he is trying to make the case for at all.  What specific reparations is he seeking?  No one knows.  Did he make the case for reparations then?  If an author does not specify what they are making the case for, its impossible to determine if they were successful in making said case.

Generally, the cart follows the yoke.

And so what reparations are being sought then?


The first reparation would look like: "We as a nation have kept black Americans under our boot for our entire existence. Through manipulation of laws, gerrymandering, and property valuation, we have horribly wronged an entire race - while shouting 'equality' from the rooftops. The entire world has been held to an American standard of freedom and morality that simply does not exist. We wish to begin a national discussion that openly addresses out history of institutional racism."
2014-05-25 11:13:41 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: Facetious_Speciest: lots of white people might not want to actively oppress black people, but they really don't want to go out of their way to actively help them, either. Some of us will go out of our way to not help them if we feel our own interests might be threatened.

What could be more threatening to someone's interests than a civil war breaking out because we neglected these immense social and economic issues?


The fact is that we are attempting the same racial inequities on a fresh new Hispanic population, through an entirety different means: lack of citizenship. And the most effective way to create a repeat of what we did to black Americans is to use the same method: remove fathers from the home, and put the children in foster care.
2014-05-25 10:57:43 PM  
1 vote:
whidbey

There is one really good way to address this, and that's to make every school in the US have the same standards of quality in both rich and poor neighborhoods. With input from the community.

I'm sure there are ways to attempt this, but it would seem to require an extensive overhaul of the entire public education system on a national level, which runs into all sorts of issues with teachers, unions, taxes, accountability involving all of the former, "what works in X won't work in Y," etc. It quickly becomes a far larger issue (or, honestly, a clusterfark of competing issues) than parity of educational opportunity or objective standards.

The metropolis I currently reside in is often the poorest, and one of the top five most dangerous and IIRC the sixth "blackest" large metro area in the country, in any given year. For the last several years, it's been embroiled in legal battles over, essentially, the predominantly-black communities in the city proper trying to force the predominantly-white suburban and exurban communities (said communities largely the result of decades of white flight that's still ongoing to a incredible degree) to pay for the former communities' school system (and, theoretically, for the improvements said system would realise with more financial support from wealthier white people). It went so sideways that the city school board was dissolved to try and force the county to make the 'urbs pick up the tab. A federal judge ruled that, yes, the responsibility for the former school district now fell on the rest of the county, so the predominantly-white municipalities instead formed their own school districts, separate from the county (and thus, now, from the former city schools), and have finalised a plan to pay the county a geld for a few years in exchange for the county school commission barring itself from suing them over any "equal protection issues" that may arise in perpetuity. All that drama's just in this place, decades after "desegregation"...I can't imagine it on a national scale. Most of the country doesn't necessarily have the same circumstances or dynamics in play, but I imagine their own can be equally nasty and will seem just as bizarre to outsiders.

I'm not saying it's impossible, obviously, only getting back to where I started this post...the complications are many and treacherous. It would take an extremely solid plan and an even more solid commitment of will from a majority of people involved, IMO. The former seems much, much easier than the latter, from what I've observed and been involved in.

Tl,dr version, which actually mirrors the crux of the original article, I think: lots of white people might not want to actively oppress black people, but they really don't want to go out of their way to actively help them, either. Some of us will go out of our way to not help them if we feel our own interests might be threatened.

/no offence intended to any white people or persons
//we're awesome, mostly
2014-05-25 10:35:24 PM  
1 vote:

06Wahoo: I'll never understand this.  Who gets reparations anyway?  I'm half Puerto Rican, and no one on that side of the family ever made a decent living until my grandparents. With the history of slavery there, I am almost certainly a descendent of a slave, but I am white as they come.  Mix in the racism that no doubt came into play towards my family at some point in the past, and that would make me eligible, right?

Not to mention, how do we determine what is fair?  Might some people in the future say it still wasn't enough, and we just go down this same path again?   I mean, slaves received reparations legally back in the 1860s, so clearly, there is history to this.

Seriously, just let it go.  We can't ever make things "fair" because trying to fix things for one group will really just screw another.  We can't make the past right, we can only hope to learn from their mistakes and do better in the future, and punishing people for what others did in the past (even those that may hold no relation to some people now) isn't just; it is just vengeful and covetous.


I think ultimately "reparations" are going to mean that we take steps to improve the quality of life in this country where everyone is above the poverty level, mainly using education to achieve the goal. That's going to be an uphill battle enough, but the other challenge is putting pressure on Big Business to recognize workers' rights and be responsible community players. Two big things that are hardly unrealistic.
2014-05-25 10:22:52 PM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: Stop talking about the problem and stop trying to assign blame and just fix it.


You almost made sense there, and then went back to the derp of "let's not talk about it."
2014-05-25 10:15:18 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: fat_free: LET'S PAY EVERYBODY! GAYS! WOMEN! CATHOLICS! ASIANS! ITALIANS! NATIVE AMERICANS! INUIT PEOPLES! FAMILIES OF CHILD LABOR!

We could do all of that by making the 1% pay higher taxes.


Man... I'd hate to ever get between you and somebody's wallet.

If you spent half as much effort actually making money as you do posting on here about why other people should be giving it to the government, you'd be fark'in loaded by now.
2014-05-25 10:06:04 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: wickedgrin: whidbey: Anyway, troll-grappling aside and back to the topic:

There is one really good way to address this, and that's to make every school in the US have the same standards of quality in both rich and poor neighborhoods. With input from the community.

I guarantee that education is the key here. We can learn from the past, and not make the same stupid mistakes. It's actually possible.

Funny how things like education funding are inexorably tied to either local sales taxes or property taxes.

It puts a nice tidy bow on redlining.

It's pathetic. The answer to many of our problems, right here under our very noses, and no one tries to address the obstacles to achieving that answer. Oh but rich white neighborhoods have the best schools.


What's worse is that federal education dollars are innefective BECAUSE they must remain equal among interests - the same equality we have seen time and time again. Which is to say the gap is just as wide, and just as intentional.
2014-05-25 08:26:58 PM  
1 vote:

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: I'd suggest that something more in the direction of a Truth and Reconciliation organization might better address the failure to fully acknowledge the nation's past and the roles played by various people and groups, and how ancient wrongs continue to affect current situations and opportunities, and how the country could begin to move past these things as a more unified society than ever. But IMO "reparations" as usually meant not only isn't a necessary part of that, it effectively precludes the possibility.

On an everyday individual lawsuit/crime level there are reasons for limiting the ability of wronged people to sue for redress for ancient wrongs and the capacity of the state to punish people for the wrongs of others, and IMO they basically apply to the concept of national reparations and collective culpability too.

Maybe it wouldn't work at all anyway; a lot of this thread is pretty farking bad.


This is one of those good parts of it.
2014-05-25 06:57:26 PM  
1 vote:
The enactment of the Fair Housing Act and the enactment of zero tolerance and mandatory minimum a sentencing is chilling - compare incarceration rates among ethnicity. Combine the over proportion of black inmates due to over enforcement becoming the new redlining and a for profit prison system... It's the modern version of slavery.
2014-05-25 06:28:39 PM  
1 vote:

rewind2846: CK2005: Where can I go so I don't have to feel guilty about being white?

No one is asking you to feel "guilty" about being white.
What they are asking is that you acknowledge the advantages you have in this society and this world due to the color of your skin, and to make sure (as best you can) that others are not denied those same advantages due to the color of theirs.

Just that simple.


I am all for supporting the poor, just seems like some people want others to feel guilty.  I have advantages and disadvantages due to a large number of factors.
2014-05-25 06:27:10 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: 1. Corporatism
2. The insistence on class structures
So I guess I don't understand why you would want to argue against eliminating either.


Not that I disagree with either of these points, but on the second: like it or not, humanity has always divided itself up into classes and groups based on arbitrary criteria. Even in the most homogenous societies, you'd be hard pressed to find complete cohesion and no stratification. It's just a matter of the human race that certain groups view other groups with distrust, distaste, or see themselves as superior.

You're never going to get rid of "Class structures" any more than you're going to get rid of murder, theft, assault, etc.

As far as corporatism, you could get rid of it, but I'm not sure how you'd completely eliminate the drivers behind it: you build a business, you hire people, and as you grow larger, the more you look for ways to turn variations to your advantage to make your business more profitable.  I'd be hard pressed to see a means of eliminating the sway companies have without drastic measures of law which I don't think people would accept outright. If anything, the best way one could counterbalance it is to reverse most of the anti-union rhetoric and establish strong national unions that have an equal voice and talking power to corporations, and are equally able to battle the company largesse.
2014-05-25 05:16:58 PM  
1 vote:

Clemkadidlefark: Italians, Irish, Native tribes .. uh let's see .. Jews, indentured English, Dutch, French, Scots .. incarcerated Japanese ..

But as to those of African genealogy .. it may have been bad for you, but we did kill 600,000+ Americans to set this to rights, plus uprooted and destroyed a million and a half families + who knows how far the ultimate damage spreads when calculating injured on both sides.


You did all that for us? But I thought that the war wasn't about slavery, but "STATE'S RIGHTS"TM? Guess it was slavery after all? Well thanks and all, but what happened after kinda nullified that shiat.
2014-05-25 04:15:56 PM  
1 vote:
oh_please

Everyone saying that blacks can't do for themselves without major help are patronizing assholes.

I don't think a lot of people are saying that. Poor people obviously have difficulties becoming non-poor, and there were some pretty effective attempts at keeping many black people poor in this country.

It's not that black people can't do for themselves without major help, it's that black people were subject to active attempts to keep them from doing for themselves fairly that may have resulted in some detrimental consequences to some black people in the present.

Attempts to correct this wouldn't really necessitate helping black people so much as poor people. In theory, obviously. Similarly in theory, it could be a clusterfark of condescending white man's burden shiat, but it doesn't have to be, and I don't know that that's what people are saying so much...
2014-05-25 04:05:26 PM  
1 vote:

Do you know the way to Mordor: DubtodaIll: Babwa Wawa: DubtodaIll: Yeah, money heals all wounds.

That's false.  In the same sense that "money can't heal any wounds" is false.

I forgot to use a sarcastrophe there. Obviously money can only buy things. The entire argument for reparations does not hold water. It will not make anyone whole. You think more handouts is going to do anything to improve the plight of black people in America? The only way to success is through the achievements of your own work and effort. Guilting someone into giving you things is the way con men make their money.

Read the article again, specifically the part where a black man in Chicago DID work hard to buy a house for his family, but the loans system was set up to make it much more difficult for him to service his loan than if he was a white man. It is not necessarily financial reparations that are needed- the system needs to change profoundly. How to make that happen? That is an argument for another comment, or maybe even another thread.


Yeah, but we could agree that "reparations" could mean investing to make a better country for everyone, that discrimination is illegal, not just immoral, and work to end this exclusionary society.
2014-05-25 04:03:50 PM  
1 vote:

danceswithcrows: whidbey: 1. End corporatism. 2. End the class system

1. is an awfully big task since there are corporations everywhere in this modern world....


It is a big task, but it's not hard. Implement tariffs to equalize the American worker with the Chinese one, and apply those tariffs to global companies as foreign ones.

But there's wayyy too many political fingers in corporate pockets for that to ever happen.
2014-05-25 03:48:07 PM  
1 vote:

danceswithcrows: whidbey: 1. End corporatism. 2. End the class system

1. is an awfully big task since there are corporations everywhere in this modern world. How about "A governmental entity should periodically examine each corporation over N size, determine whether that corporation is benefiting society or not, and have the power to revoke the charters of corporations that consistently fail to provide any benefits."? Implemented correctly, it'd get rid of the worst abuses. Implemented badly, it'd ensure that every corporation that espoused principles contrary to the people in charge would get liquidated. As such, I don't know how well it'd work. Need some better ideas....

2. is probably not possible, unless you go in for "Harrison Bergeron"-style pervasive social engineering. Young children seem to form classes/groups/tribes spontaneously. People hunter-gathering in New Guinea before 1950 had class systems. If we ever get to talk to the North Sentinelese, we'll probably find they have a class system. Identifying with a group and then conflicting with other groups is probably an emergent behavior of social organisms.

So a better/more useful thing would be to make the gap between the minimum-wage guy at 35 hours/week and the $5 million/year CEO narrower. Yet we can't do that because of politics. *sigh*.


Well, you asked. I answered. You rationalized it away.

We could end corporatism. It would take several generations. We need to stress in our educational systems that life is not about working 40-80+ hours a week for "happiness." Education is not about getting a job with a corporation. We've made some headway in the past 50 years alone, but we need more of it, and at a faster rate.

Identifying with a group and then conflicting with other groups is probably an emergent behavior of social organisms.


You misunderstand--we should be encouraging multl-culturalism.

But the rich-middle class-poor formula has to be broken down. None of those factors belong in a modern-day society. Might have worked a hundred years ago--before labor rights started becoming a paradigm.

My point is that we need to get rid of the social structure started by white slaveholders.
2014-05-25 03:34:28 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: 1. End corporatism. 2. End the class system


1. is an awfully big task since there are corporations everywhere in this modern world. How about "A governmental entity should periodically examine each corporation over N size, determine whether that corporation is benefiting society or not, and have the power to revoke the charters of corporations that consistently fail to provide any benefits."? Implemented correctly, it'd get rid of the worst abuses. Implemented badly, it'd ensure that every corporation that espoused principles contrary to the people in charge would get liquidated. As such, I don't know how well it'd work. Need some better ideas....

2. is probably not possible, unless you go in for "Harrison Bergeron"-style pervasive social engineering. Young children seem to form classes/groups/tribes spontaneously. People hunter-gathering in New Guinea before 1950 had class systems. If we ever get to talk to the North Sentinelese, we'll probably find they have a class system. Identifying with a group and then conflicting with other groups is probably an emergent behavior of social organisms.

So a better/more useful thing would be to make the gap between the minimum-wage guy at 35 hours/week and the $5 million/year CEO narrower. Yet we can't do that because of politics. *sigh*.
2014-05-25 03:19:00 PM  
1 vote:

fat_free: LET'S PAY EVERYBODY! GAYS! WOMEN! CATHOLICS! ASIANS! ITALIANS! NATIVE AMERICANS! INUIT PEOPLES! FAMILIES OF CHILD LABOR!


We could do all of that by making the 1% pay higher taxes.
2014-05-25 02:49:34 PM  
1 vote:

lilplatinum: But it doesn't make the North more racist, as it isn't.


He (or she) says emphatically, with nothing but feelings to back it up.

"I feel it so it must be true."  You vote conservative republican? Because that sounds very conservative and republican.
2014-05-25 02:43:41 PM  
1 vote:

Elegy: And when those black communities are trapped in the urban ghettos because they are priced out of the suburban and rural real estate market - that is the very definition of "institutionalize racism." See TFA, which spends a large amount of time on the entrapment of poor blacks in urban ghettos, with no opportunity and no chance to move,


This is an urban problem and is suffered by poor whites, hispanics, and asians in these areas.   There is certainly no shortage of racism in the North, but these problems are of an urban nature, and certainly should be addressed.  But it doesn't make the North more racist, as it isn't.  It does make the socioeconomic problems of minorities in urban environments more showing as there are more actual cities there rather than dirt farming peasant hovels.

(Hillbillies, btw, makes little damn sense because "hillbillies" is someone from "the hills," an you seem to indicate that you are talking not about poor white Appalachians, but poor white lowland southerners)

Shockingly, words tend to evolve past their original meanings.  Hillbilly is used to mean country folk in general.  Much like when racist rednecks in Florida talk about the justice of a thug in a hoodie being shot, they are not referring to a member of the Thugee cult.
2014-05-25 02:30:40 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: Waldo Pepper: not playing your game, you know what you implied and i stand by my statement.  find someone else to play your childish "what about, what if" games

Still pathetically trolling this thread, I see.


Your last 4 comments have been clearly trolling so this is ironic. Why should Waldo argue with someone who's only move is to make up Straw Man arguments
2014-05-25 02:27:41 PM  
1 vote:

Need_MindBleach: News flash: Your ancestors probably did terrible things too.


Newsflash: White people say things to downplay centuries of racism in the US.
2014-05-25 02:07:55 PM  
1 vote:

JAGChem82: Bottom line, I'm no SJW or a vengeful black militant on a mission to make you ofays pay or whatever, but I cannot stand perpetual whiners getting pissy over things that in the grand scheme of things wouldn't hurt them at all. Does providing blacks with more opportunities to participate in voting mean that white people can't vote for 100 years? Does funding an inner city library mean that whites will stuck reading cheap romance novels for life? Does having a black president mean we're going to repeal the 13th Amendment and enslave whitey for 400 years?


See, this is pretty much the right take-away from the article and the discussion. Dealing with the effects of the past doesn't have to be some destructive conflict, the correct way to go about it involves improving opportunities, which will benefit pretty much everyone.
2014-05-25 01:56:56 PM  
1 vote:

lilplatinum: Because they have far more metropolitan areas where the problems of the black community are generally concentrated. The deep south has only Atlanta in the top 20 metropolitan areas.  So adjusting for "the south" is essentially just adjusting for Atlanta vs. every other metropolitan area.


So you're telling me the incarceration rate in the north is greater because poor blacks in the cities are disproportionately concentrated into poor urban ghettos, and that economic disparity gives rise to more crime in the black communities?

Thanks, you just confirmed my point that life for blacks in the north is marked by a higher degree of segregation and systematic inequality than in the south.
2014-05-25 01:17:27 PM  
1 vote:

rohar: That's interesting.  Idaho is at the far bottom, but home to the Arian Nations.  Something unintuitive is going on here.  I fear you've made the correlation = causation mistake.


You are making a categorical mistake, as well as a mistake in extrapolating from the small to the large.

I am talking about institutional racism - the broad racism of the judicial institutions, in particular.

You are taking a single example of a small group of racist, and trying to extrapolate to Idaho.
2014-05-25 12:57:22 PM  
1 vote:

CK2005: Where can I go so I don't have to feel guilty about being white?


No one is asking you to feel "guilty" about being white.
What they are asking is that you acknowledge the advantages you have in this society and this world due to the color of your skin, and to make sure (as best you can) that others are not denied those same advantages due to the color of theirs.

Just that simple.
2014-05-25 12:22:08 PM  
1 vote:

Trail of Dead: trevzie: Trail of Dead: vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.

We can't have a rational discussion about these things without white people threatening to burn everything to the ground. It's a lost cause, like the global warming debate and the income inequality debate. Otherwise decent, rational whites lose their shiat when these topics come up. I have zero faith in things getting better for black people in America in this century. One day, white America won't hold the absolute power it does now - that's the only hope. So farking glad I don't have kids growing up in this poisonous atmosphere.

I think the victim complex is why things aren't getting better for black people. They feel like they can't succeed because they are opressed and it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy because they don't try. The key to getting a good job is getting into a good college, and black people have it pretty easy when it comes to getting accepted into a good college. The system is actually stacked in their favor right now. Granted it's harder to get a good GPA in high school with poverty and a broken home life. But really, it's high school, it's not that hard.

Thanks for proving my point.


Good rebuttal. Ad hominem combined with a self proclaimed victory. I think I figured out why there can't be a rational discussion.
2014-05-25 11:39:51 AM  
1 vote:

DubtodaIll: Yeah, money heals all wounds.


I couldn't finish the article right now but I don't think the idea was merely giving money to African Americans.

Personally, I believe there should be reperations. And they should come in the form of programs which improve land value, improve educational opportunities, and decrease the criminalization of African Americans.

For instance, and I know correlation doesn't prove causation, but programs which cleaned up, literally cleaned, by taking litter off the streets resulted in less crime in those areas. So lets spend money and clean up all of America's neighborhoods. White or black, rich or poor. Lets spend money putting art installations, and things to do in a more evenly distributed manner, ridding our nation of food ghettos, making sure charter schools don't take money from public education and then claim they're better because they've never dealt with a problematic child before (leaving underfunded public schools dealing with the children from the "worst" areas woefully unprepared). Lets fund day cares for working parents, repair and tear down dilapidated buildings. Put in more parks. Rebuild infrastructure and public transportation making it easier for people to get to jobs. Put in place a strong safety net so people can't fall through the cracks and can risk failure in an attempt to acheive success. Community programs, and music. Lets make our poorest neighborhoods so desirable that hipsters and whites and asians and rich folk want to live there. All of these things are easily doable with a bit of creativity. I'm also for raising the minimum wage, and it wouldn't take much to convince me a mandatory minimum income per person was a bad idea regardless of income. Also decriminalize drugs to mitigate the horribly racist effects of the ineffectual drug war. Treat drug abuse as a health problem. Provide single payer and universal health care. Most of these things create jobs which ends up leading to healthier communities with inhabitants who can spend more money thus supporting more local shops and commerce. It's a cycle of good.

I don't think handing a check to every African American would produce any longstanding change at all.
2014-05-25 11:12:55 AM  
1 vote:
Bookmarked the article a couple of days ago and sat down and read it this morning. Thank you submitter. And thank you whomever decided to greenlight it after all.
2014-05-25 11:04:37 AM  
1 vote:

DrD'isInfotainment: stlbluez: "I KNOW SLAVERY because "  narrative

I call bullshiat! I'm making no such assertion. Only that my understanding springs from something I know about in  one line of my family.They came in 1634. I have another relative who was on the Mayflower, but THAT isn't the point. I also have Mexican andecedents,ScotchIrish Canadian, Dutch, belgian and others.My point is that the one who came to Sudbury Mass in 1634 had to work for 12 years to earn his freedom and the right to own land, and that it has remained part of the family lore ever since, so a reasonable person could imagine that a Black American might have so much of a burden of the Past on their Present, that it might color their perspective in ways that obstruct their progress in this country. So some meaningful gesture could be made by AMERICA to assuage some of their deep sense of legitimate grievance.


This is what I don't get. America constantly makes grand gestures; the countries history with slavery isn't a secret.
Assist the poor because the poor need assistance, not because disproportionatly it'll help blacks.
Young blacks have a self imposed image problem the same as poor urban whites.
The solutions are varied and begin with education and a different focus on what's "cool" for young urban adults. A focus on race only clouds the issue and hampers solutions.
2014-05-25 10:37:39 AM  
1 vote:

Freudian_slipknot: It's only getting better at hiding itself.  No one uses racial slurs in public, but that doesn't mean they're not just as racist as our grandparents were.


We, not they.  Pretty much everyone is racist to some extent, and those that they never had a racist thought in their lives are almost certainly full of shiat.  We are tribal animals with the inherent instinct to demonize the "other."
2014-05-25 10:36:28 AM  
1 vote:
I think it's racist to suggest that non-black people today should be forced to pay black people for slavery. So.. someone else 200 years ago who was white did something wrong, and because I'm white I have to pay for what they did. That is racist.
2014-05-25 10:35:49 AM  
1 vote:

violentsalvation: a program of job training and public works that takes racial justice as its mission but includes the poor of all races.

plus ending the drug war and completely reworking the criminal justice system can be called reparations than I'm all for it. Of course I don't expect that wealth gap to instantly close either, it will take generations to undo. Pragmatism.


I think you are on to something here...
2014-05-25 10:29:41 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: DrD'isInfotainment: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: I feel so guilty, let me get a check for Jay Z.

[img.fark.net image 196x257]

Son,it's about time you learn about white privilege.
[img.fark.net image 225x225]

I can assure that both of those images hold folks who were not disenfranchised by capitalist Black men, but rather by unscrupulous White capitalists , as in Mine Owners in the first case and most likely white bankers  in the second case,who foreclosed on helpless farmers who could have and would have  paid off their indebtedness once the Depression and Dust Bowl were behind them..But you just keep casting it in terms that make Black folks the source of your problems.

how many of those white families had great/grandparents who moved up from the south since they were unable to find jobs due to all the free slave labor jobs the Planter class had tied up.   Slavery not only disenfranchised the future free black person but also the poor person of every color in the South.


Then maybe they could be benefit from such a fund also.Although your  supposition has a lot of holes in it, such as a poor white sharecropper who was disenfranchised by "freed"blacks could actually moved North, or more probably West, and done much better for themselves than what the Southern (or Northern,for that matter)Planter or Factory owners had on offer. The country was built, not just by Black Slaves, but by many different disenfranchised people who sought, and sometime found, a better life somewhere else, everyone except, of course, the Black Man, who still  faces much of the same racist bullshiat no matter where he/she goes.
2014-05-25 10:03:46 AM  
1 vote:

stlbluez: "I KNOW SLAVERY because "  narrative


I call bullshiat! I'm making no such assertion. Only that my understanding springs from something I know about in  one line of my family.They came in 1634. I have another relative who was on the Mayflower, but THAT isn't the point. I also have Mexican andecedents,ScotchIrish Canadian, Dutch, belgian and others.My point is that the one who came to Sudbury Mass in 1634 had to work for 12 years to earn his freedom and the right to own land, and that it has remained part of the family lore ever since, so a reasonable person could imagine that a Black American might have so much of a burden of the Past on their Present, that it might color their perspective in ways that obstruct their progress in this country. So some meaningful gesture could be made by AMERICA to assuage some of their deep sense of legitimate grievance.
2014-05-25 08:27:01 AM  
1 vote:
Hey, has anyone mentioned that the article isn't really about reparations for slavery, but rather a call to honest appraisal of the damage that racially driven policies from the second half of the 20th century have inflicted on the African-American community?

And is it perhaps possible that when the author uses the term "reparations" he's actually talking about concrete steps to "repair" that damage, rather than simply saying white people should write checks to black people?

Because I'm seeing a lot of talk about check-writing and slavery from many of the people on this thread, and not much about the actual content of the article.
2014-05-25 08:08:51 AM  
1 vote:

TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.


Recipe for a Fark idiot:

1) do not RTFA
2) do not RTFT
3) spout off pointless passionate attack on what you think it maybe said
4) be defensively outraged when people note the above makes you an idiot.
2014-05-25 07:42:37 AM  
1 vote:

Gyrfalcon: Because otherwise I foresee this being just another dead end, like the last reparations movement, or Occupy Wall Street--a great idea that collapses for lack of a genuine goal. And that would be sad.



You can safely say this is a dead end. The only people who could even remotely be held accountable are those who have a traceable amount of property directly resultant from the slave trade.


So you can eliminate the western half of the US, and most of the northeast, and every metropolitan area with a sizable population of immigrants who began arriving around 1880.


All that leaves is the southeast, and from there, you can only go after those who have slave trading ancestors. You can't even use the criteria of merely owning slaves, since those people already paid penalties by losing real property when the slaves they bought and owned were freed.


But that's not the end of the story. I've heard it said more than once that the American Civil War was fought purely to end slavery, there were no other economic or political considerations. So, the descendants of all union soldiers are due some form of payout from their efforts to free the slaves. At least, that's all you're going to hear from states where they came from.


Now, I'd continue this further, but there's no point in prolonging the idiocy. I'll give you the short version. Whites are soon to be outnumbered anyway, and no way are Mexicans going to be willing to pay for this shiat.
2014-05-25 07:36:44 AM  
1 vote:

Duke_leto_Atredes: sprgrss: cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.

So if I'm against reparations I should be put on a plane and flown back to precisely where I'm currently residing?  That's a waste of money.

no plane, boat ride, see how they like the third world shiat hole Africa is.

my Family never held slaves and several served in the army that freed them.


For farks sake, the fact that your family arrived last Tuesday or that they never owned slaves has nothing to do with the case for reparations.

The problem is that Americans like yourself think that American racism is not your problem because blah blah blah.

And for the others in this thread shiatting about "white liberal guilt" who don't get how stupid that makes you sound, might as well stick your fingers in your ears and "Lalalala" out of the thread. Truly clueless as to how funny you are.

I'll just leave this here for the illiterates who can't bother to read the article.
2014-05-25 07:30:28 AM  
1 vote:
How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.
2014-05-25 06:15:19 AM  
1 vote:
And yet: five hundred posts in, and I've yet to see ANYONE (black, white or of a rainbow hue) even move past arguing about who has a right to be angry to even suggest what reparations would LOOK LIKE. Or at best we get warmed-over affirmative action and trite "level the playing field" remarks that essentially do nothing.

Any effort to "acknowledge the past" as some have suggested is invariably, in my experience, met with "you haven't acknowledged it ENOUGH," which usually means "you haven't acknowledged it enough FOR ME," which leads back to the original question: What would reparations look like? What would that be like? What is it that people want to have happen?

Because if it's an honest dialogue about slavery, Jim Crow, black disenfranchisement, institutional racism and the divide&conquer strategies that have been used by the upper class to keep black and poor white at each other's throats since 1770, that's one thing. If it's a race to the bottom to see who has been injured more by being poor and downtrodden (which I already see here in this very thread), that's another. If it's paybacks, that's a third thing.

But the fact is, it's not as simple as "Whites have it better than blacks and so whites should make amends to blacks for being mean all these years" at least not any more. Some whites do have it better than most blacks--but try telling that to a West Virginia coal miner or a Louisiana bayou boy. Some blacks have had a legacy of institutional racism in America; but where does that leave the newly-arrived immigrant from Sudan or a nominally black fifth-generation ex-pat Briton? (If Idris Elba were to move to America, would he now be part of the reparation movement, and why or why not?)

I understand what people think they want--but how is it different from what's ALREADY been tried? Absent making laws that explicitly state "Black people may not be arrested, blacks must be given preferential treatment in civil matters" what would be the net result of non-monetary sociocultural reparations? Because otherwise I foresee this being just another dead end, like the last reparations movement, or Occupy Wall Street--a great idea that collapses for lack of a genuine goal. And that would be sad.
2014-05-25 05:21:34 AM  
1 vote:

accelerus: I don't care how well written it was... they aren't getting any of my money.  If you want money, do what I do. Go to work.


It's 3:30am on a Sunday and I just woke up because it's called a JOB. I don't really care for it, but it allowed me to buy a home, pay off my car, and do things I enjoy during my off time.


Random question:  if they suddenly got their freebie check, would I suddenly be "allowed" to use the N word like they do without fear of getting beaten up or killed? The double standard that exists there pisses me off, along with any racism exhibited by blacks automatically gets a free pass or swept under the rug.   Also:  you could give people millions of dollars and they will wind right back up in the poor house if they aren't smart enough to safe or exercise any self control.

I'd love to sit here and banter some more - but I have to go actually earn my money. You know, with that thing called a job. (and yes, I really do wake up at 3am for work, IT admin for a 24/7 facility)


You sound like a racist, and a really pathetic excuse for a human. But hey, IT admin, I expect you don't bathe or engage in most human activities.

Go to work, boy. Work work work. It won't make you any less a failure.
2014-05-25 05:06:11 AM  
1 vote:

accelerus: would I suddenly be "allowed" to use the N word like they do without fear of getting beaten up or killed? The double standard that exists there pisses me off


If you go up to your girlfriend at the bar and put your arm around here and say hey sweetie, that's okay. If I go up to your girlfriend at a bar and put my arm around her and say hey sweetie, that's not okay. It's about context. Black people using the n word is not a double standard, it's a standard. Of all the things you could have brought up to discuss you pick this? You're not a victim because you can't say a word. Get over that, quickly. We've got a hundred issues a thousand times more important to discuss.
2014-05-25 04:57:11 AM  
1 vote:
It was definitely a thought-provoking article, but there are a few issues I think should have been covered that weren't. Firstly, white people weren't the only slave-holders.  The first permanent slave in the US was a man named John Casor. Prior to Casor's enslavement, black people brought from Africa were indentured servants, with a servitude of seven years.  At the end of their servitude, they were given their freedom and 50 acres.  John Casor's indenture had been bought by a freed black man, who was given the legal right to extend the servitude indefinitely by the courts in 1654.  Thus, the first slave-owner in the colonies was black, rather than white.  This was not a completely isolated event, with several thousand black people being slave owners even in the 1800s. Additionally, Native Americans were also slave owners.

Secondly, just as all slave owners were not all white, all slaves were not all black.  At one point, Irish and Scottish indentured servants cost about 1/10 the price of a black slave or indentured servant. Because of the lower price, in many instances they were treated worse than black slaves. It can be argued that an indenture isn't the same as slavery, but when the owner of the indenture has the power of life and death, there's very little distinction.  Also, Native Americans were enslaved by Europeans throughout the Americas, with over 50,000 Native Americans from the Carolinas alone enslaved.

I believe that rather than direct reparations to black people or even "black communities" reparations should take the form of increased educational opportunities in ALL low-economic communities. These should be provided in conjunction with after-school centers, community gardens, and other such facilities that would both foster a sense of community and empower residents to provide for themselves. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be able to eat every day and all that.

I have ancestors who owned slaves. I have ancestors who were slaves. Because of this, I have a particularly keen interest in slavery, and am working on a project to track down descendants of some of the former slaves interviewed for the slave narrative project in the 1930's. (By the way, anyone interested in slavery in the US should definitely look into these for a first-hand account.) In the slave narratives, the difficulties of life after slavery are detailed, and it is truly appalling what some of these people had to endure, both during slavery and up until the 1930s when the interviews took place. One thing that I've found striking is that the educational level achieved by the children of the former slaves had a quite dramatic effect on the success of succeeding generations.  The greatest success story I've stumbled upon thus far is Augustus Askew.  Augustus was a blacksmith, his wife Irene a laundress. They scrimped and saved and managed to send their children to school. One of their daughters, Mamie, became a school teacher, the other, Gussie, married an engineer.  Gussie's son, Ira Madison, developed the rocket propulsion system still used by NASA.
2014-05-25 04:53:12 AM  
1 vote:
The article is well-written, and the indictments compelling, but the author stumbles every time he tries to tie it back into reparations, whether it is vaguely suggesting that reparations are a necessary part of acknowledgement of the nation's brutal history, or casually lumping reparations to black Americans with something like German reparations to Israel, or dismissing with a handwave any objection to paying for the crimes of long-dead ancestors. Oddly, despite all the specifics he goes into, the basic problem here IMO is treating the injury done to black Americans over the centuries as a monolithic evil, when really there are some aspects which very much lend themselves to discussion of reparations, and others where that's neither sensible nor productive.
2014-05-25 04:49:30 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: This thread just confirms my belief that the welfare queen is the most destructive modern caricature of Blacks, at least to me.

throw in the lazy drug dealing thug young black man who has father 3 or 4 babies with 3 or 4 different moms. 

Hollywood sure doesn't help matters much.


ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com

/LULZ!
2014-05-25 04:44:22 AM  
1 vote:

Big Ramifications: Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.

Your comment literally made me LOL.

I smile a lot reading Fark, I rarely LOL. Cheers!


Thanks! Heck, I didn't even know where it came from until the later comments. It just seemed so typically Fark, a completely random statement in the middle of a long thread. Finding the source just made it better.
2014-05-25 04:39:45 AM  
1 vote:

Kurmudgeon: I wonder, if a person is half black and half white, do they owe reparations to themselves?


No because we aren't discussing reparations in terms of checks.
2014-05-25 04:26:40 AM  
1 vote:

armor helix: Let's call this what it is. Black people want money - and they want it from the white man.


Well, they want opportunities, which lead to money, financial stability, the ability to endure a family disaster, and right now that does seem to be concentrated in "the white man" but I'm pretty sure they'll accept it in any case.

armor helix: I've never met a black person that gave a crap about the turmoils of any other race. And I've also never met a black person that didn't think the white man owed him something


Funnily enough, I've met many who do not meet your description. I've worked for, with, and over many people of all races, and most all of them just felt they were owed a fair chance. Get-over artists were pretty evenly represented among all races and genders, as a very small proportion of the total. I may not be or present an entirely representative sample, but it certainly does strongly imply that your statement is a result of either limited experience or perception.
2014-05-25 04:16:14 AM  
1 vote:
Let's call this what it is. Black people want money - and they want it from the white man.

I've never met a black person that gave a crap about the turmoils of any other race. And I've also never met a black person that didn't think the white man owed him something.
2014-05-25 04:12:31 AM  
1 vote:

Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo


It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.
2014-05-25 04:08:24 AM  
1 vote:
eat da poo poo
2014-05-25 03:49:21 AM  
1 vote:

Captain Dan: firefly212: As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.

1. Not all black people want to ban gay marriage; aggregate black opinion is split pretty evenly.  Collectively condemning black people based on the actions of some is illogical.

2. Part of being a good person is treating other people well even if they don't treat you well.  Even if every black person in the country opposed gay marriage, it would be immoral to take that as a warrant to treat them poorly.

3. Straight-gay relations are probably the template for the future of race relations.  As long as gays embraced a countercultural / "outside group" identity (for understandable reasons), they were never going to convince most people that they were as fully American as anyone else.  It's only in the past two decades, with the attempts to culturally normalize gay people - as patriotic and moral as straight people - that voter opinion really started shifting towards ending anti-gay discrimination.

It'll be tougher for black people to integrate, just because of economic reasons, but I think that once we get to the point where there's less talk about grievances and more about patriotism and inclusiveness, that's when recalcitrant white people will open their hearts to the real problems facing black people.


1. It's not split evenly, not even close. If you want to talk about not treating people monolithically, talk to the author, not me. I'm not the one who wrote about all black people first, I am just responding to the article. i'm not talking about condemning anyone, I'm saying i'm not going to go out of my way to be extra nice or treat black people any better than I would treat white people... just as i don't go out of my way to be extra nice to the southern baptists, or any other  group who, while a few members may be ok with me, generally are dicks when it comes to equal rights.

2.i don't treat anybody poorly. i don't treat anyone particularly well just on the grounds of race either, no matter what their race is... welcome to equality.

3. Gay people were always the way they are now, the difference isn't integration, and the fact you think that's what happened shows just how off-base you are. The difference was normal gays coming out of the closet and dispelling the myth that all gays are leather bears and drag queens. There were plenty of older gay guys just going about their day to day business, being normal as fark while being portrayed as "outside" or "counter-culture" by groups seeking to discredit them. The image you're thinking of had nothing to do with reality.

/Patriotism is dumb, you're not better than anyone because of what country you were born in. What helps African-Americans integrate is what helped every culture before them integrate... hating on the next guy. With the Italians, the Irish, and the African-Americans... it's the same story... find the next person to hate and join in.
2014-05-25 03:44:49 AM  
1 vote:
Since I'm a teeny-tiny bit Native American even though by appearances I'm whiter than white bread, I'd like about ten million dollars for all the land the white man stole from 'my people'.

If they want some form of reparations, then they should be asking for parity in education and opportunity so that poor people have something close to an equal chance of succeeding.
2014-05-25 03:38:06 AM  
1 vote:
I benefited from black oppression. Fine. I probably don't have to go back more than seven generations to find out I exist because of rape.
2014-05-25 03:37:25 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: wow not even a "sorry to hear about your mom passing" you just keep right on going with your attempt at humor. 

i wasn't kidding that my Mom just passed.


OK, I'm sorry, your mom died.  But I still want to know why you seem to dismiss academic research simply because it runs counter to the point you're making.

I'm also curious as to why you might want to use sympathy as a foil in your debating method.  This is a technique common to sociopaths.
2014-05-25 03:37:10 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: She passed away 6 weeks ago, why do you want to know.

I'm merely curious because you seem to have issues with authority.

So, tell me about your mother.  How did she treat you?  Are you angry?

[i.imgur.com image 370x269]

wow not even a "sorry to hear about your mom passing" you just keep right on going with your attempt at humor.
i wasn't kidding that my Mom just passed.


You know, just saying, I don't believe a goddamned thing you've said in this entire thread.
2014-05-25 03:33:02 AM  
1 vote:

kyrg: When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt,


Which do you think is more destructive of the ability of a randomly chosen black person in 2014: the assault on their "dignity" that was the Great Society plan (a suite of programs most of which were gutted and left to rot on the roadside even before Johnson left office), or the assault on their ability to amass wealth by the FHA and every mortgager in the nation from 1900 until 1965?

Read. The. Farking. Article. Already.
2014-05-25 03:24:22 AM  
1 vote:

cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.


I love to see Republican racism and bigotry out in the open, where we can all smell how offensive it is.
2014-05-25 03:18:02 AM  
1 vote:

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


It was always going to be.  The article is one of the smartest, most provocative pieces written in the past 20 years ( in the real, provocative making you think way.  Not linkbait and trolly way).

And people here will refuse to read it due to a need to sniff their own balls.
2014-05-25 03:13:31 AM  
1 vote:

ox45tallboy: Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.


The question being, and then what? What promotes a better society for all out of this? Fubini made some excellent points about how actual improvements can be made, but they're a long-term incremental solution, which are notoriously difficult to legislate, and the seizing, taxing, or fining of properties that may have been taken unlawfully by now-deceased persons may or may not pass Constitutional muster (as a bill of attainder).
Also, if current legislation exists that specifically promotes racism, it should be identified and repealed. But no examples of any currently existing legislation like that have been given.
2014-05-25 03:12:50 AM  
1 vote:

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


I disagree. As far as "race threads" go...it's been relatively civil, good points made on both sides of the issue, and none of the trolls have been successful in derailing the conversation. I've read posts that have made me think and question. It's been an interesting way to spend a few hours.

Compare this to say...a Zimmerman thread from last summer. After reading those, I felt like blacks and whites were living on different planets. This one has been nothing like that.
2014-05-25 03:07:56 AM  
1 vote:

Carousel Beast: Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?


Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.


officeday: .Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left,



There is zero evidence that the the exodus happened or that ancient Egypt had Hebrew slaves.
2014-05-25 03:06:54 AM  
1 vote:

kyrg: When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt, starting with the Great Society era of welfare handouts, section 8 housing, affirmative action up todays EBT cards and encouraging the whole sale slaughter of their race through abortion, you're GD right there should be payback.

When you expect less of a people, when you convince them that they are unable to rise above their history and reenforce that thought by taking away the incentive to move up and out through hundreds of Governments programs, when you can persuade several generations to vote for the same party that promises deliverance, but in fact only perpetuates their status quo, then that is exactly what you are going to get.


Oh look, someone else who didn't read the article.

That is like saying someone should have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps after you hacked off their legs with an axe. Just rank stupidity/trolling...
2014-05-25 03:03:15 AM  
1 vote:

starsrift: I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.


Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.
2014-05-25 03:02:09 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: but you don't know for sure that you are doing better because you are white. How do you not know that if you had face some of the trials of being black that you wouldn't have came out of those times stronger and more successful?


Four year college (for me) without cosigned loans from my dad would have been impossible.  And had he been shuffled off to jail instead of the Navy, he certainly wouldn't have been able to swing it - he was struggling with credit as was, even with a steady pension.  He also probably wouldn't have been able to cosign the loan for the car that I used to deliver Pizza Hut.  While he didn't pay for my college education directly, that education would not have been possible without his steady financial situation.

More importantly, I know that my own will was not strong enough at the time to make my own way.  Without his modest but nonetheless steadfast financial backing, I wouldn't have attained my degree.

I can't speak for my siblings' will.  But I have some pretty f*cking strong evidence that without my father's modest support, my sisters' advanced degrees wouldn't have been attained.  My MD sister would very likely be an RN at most.  My JD sister would be something else.
2014-05-25 03:01:36 AM  
1 vote:
When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt, starting with the Great Society era of welfare handouts, section 8 housing, affirmative action up todays EBT cards and encouraging the whole sale slaughter of their race through abortion, you're GD right there should be payback.

When you expect less of a people
, when you convince them that they are unable to rise above their history and reenforce that thought by taking away the incentive to move up and out through hundreds of Governments programs, when you can persuade several generations to vote for the same party that promises deliverance, but in fact only perpetuates their status quo, then that is exactly what you are going to get.
2014-05-25 02:48:33 AM  
1 vote:

BlueDWarrior: Captain Dan: Lsherm: At my last job my director was black, and he was describing a candidate who was coming in for a job interview and he said "articulate."  I stopped him and asked him if she was black.  He said she was and I pointed out people usually use articulate when describing black people.

Articulate, rightly or wrongly, has become a word in the US that people only use to describe either black people or people otherwise not expected to speak well.  It's an automatic backhanded compliment, so I don't use it at all.

This shows up all the time in NFL/NBA interviews: "[black player] is so articulate!" - as if they were expecting an unintelligible idiot.  They never say it about well-spoken white guys, because there's this implicit racist thought of "he's white, he ought to be articulate."


If he has an extremely low forehead and eyes that seem to look in all directions at the same time... Ah hell, no, forget it: if a footballplayer can actually formulate a proper sentence, I will raise my eyebrows. Doesn't matter the color. I know what you're saying - but this is a really, really bad example. Sports players are almost universally dumb as a brick.

Also a similar effect: the White/Black Doll test.

Yeah, well. Private companies cater for the common denominator. Tough shiat. Blacks in the US account for 13% or something (I don't know the exact number). So again, I know what you're saying, but bad example.
2014-05-25 02:45:43 AM  
1 vote:
People posting all this dumb as shiat stuff without actually reading the article is why this country will never (at least for a couple of centuries) move past institutionalized racism.
2014-05-25 02:38:13 AM  
1 vote:

starsrift: TFA is long, and I barely made it through.

I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

/ not that it should matter, but my family is mixed race


I don't think he was saying "We should only help poor blacks."
He was more saying "Poor blacks might need more help than other groups because they are a good distance behind the starting line."

In the end I don't think T-NC is trying to say blacks should be put on a pedestal above everyone else, though some of it might leak through due to natural human bias. He is saying that blacks might need more work in terms of trying to level everyone's pedestals off.
2014-05-25 02:36:35 AM  
1 vote:
Babwa Wawa:

Oh wow.  You realize that you're not doing your alma mater any favors with ignorant, racist posts like this, right?


As a black OU grad, I want to give my fellow bobcat the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just a joke and that he's not foolish enough to actually think like that. So that's what I'm going with.
2014-05-25 02:34:05 AM  
1 vote:

BlueDWarrior: Are we really dismissing wide-scale, scientifically done studies in favor of limited personal experience and anecdotes?


http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felo n- same-chances-for-hire/

Was that this study? Because this study took place in only two cities.

Also:   I hired young men to pose as job applicants, assigning them resumes with equal levels of education and experience, and sending them to apply for real entry-level job openings all over the city.

This is practically anecdotal on its own. It's certainly suggestive, but that's it. Climate change has "wide-scale, scientifically done studies" confirming it. This has one study, with no repeated confirmation and a large possibility for error and bias.
2014-05-25 02:33:44 AM  
1 vote:
TFA is long, and I barely made it through.

I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

/ not that it should matter, but my family is mixed race
2014-05-25 02:29:27 AM  
1 vote:

OhioUGrad: IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?

Their own continent?


Oh wow.  You realize that you're not doing your alma mater any favors with ignorant, racist posts like this, right?
2014-05-25 02:28:24 AM  
1 vote:

BlueDWarrior: Government Positions aren't that disporportiantely black due to quotas, they are due to the fact blacks value stability over absolute earning potential.


Actually, it's more likely due to friendly hiring policies that tend to create racial hiring clusters, which is normally what white people do but can be done by any race once they've established a foothold.  The DC metro system is a pretty good example of it - almost all board leadership is white, but any of the operational jobs are almost exclusively black.  It's another example of institutional racism in action, just in reverse.

And this happens every day in every industry.  If a community is largely employed by one employer, then they draw their employee pool from the people they know.  But if you look at the larger picture, blacks are concentrating on the lower end of the payment scale while whites are concentrating at the higher end.  It only appears that more black people are working in government because they have lower paid customer-facing jobs.  If you look around, there's probably a disproportionate number of black people working at your local fast food joint, too.  But the regional manager is probably a white guy.
2014-05-25 02:27:06 AM  
1 vote:

BlueDWarrior: Addressing point 3: a lot of people on the left fear change in the structure of education because, in a lot of places, that manifests as a gentrification of the school system as well-off parents put all their kids in private schools, and redraw district maps as to basically ghettoize public schools by cutting off their funding.


Yeah, that's a terrible system, and it's designed to perpetuate structural racism.

I'll be honest: I would send my kids to an all-white private school before sending them to a substandard public school, because I care more about my kids' education than I do about ending racism.  Any effective reform has to acknowledge that nearly all parents feel the same way; they want first and foremost what's best for their kids.  That's reality.

A good start to education reform would involve severing the tie between neighborhood and education funding (have funds distributed by the state on an equitable basis, so that poor schools are as well-funded as schools in rich neighborhoods), and reforming our approach to public school teacher hiring (my proposal: pay the best teachers much, much more, and fire the worst ones).

If you want an example of this, look at the debate over Baton Rouge (where I live) being separated into Baton Rouge proper and a new city of St. George that would take up a lot of the south of East Baton Rouge parish (where coincidentally a lot of well-off white people live...)

I've actually been reading about this for a while, because Rod Dreher (a conservative writer in that area) has been covering it.  I can't fathom how we allow such a stupid system to remain in place.
2014-05-25 02:15:28 AM  
1 vote:

OgreMagi: Reparation was paid with the blood of all the men who died on the battle field to end slavery in this country.


All zero of them, eh?  (Here's a hint, slavery did not end with Lee surrendering at Appomattox, nor with Johnson's declaration of the end of the war, nor with the last Confederate general surrendering.)

Southerners don't get to claim the war wasn't about slavery at all, but neither do Northerners get to claim the war was their atonement for racism forever.  (Nor, incidentally, do people descended from post-Civil-War immigrants get to claim they bear no responsibility for the past when they directly benefit from that past in the present.)

/white Southerner descended from post-Civil-War immigrants to Virginia and two long lines of North Carolinians
2014-05-25 02:15:10 AM  
1 vote:

Captain Dan: A few points aimed at nobody in particular:

1. If you have any real-life proposals for ameliorating structural racism, please share them.  But if you don't, if you only want a "conversation about race," and what you really want is affirmation, to feel good about yourself without doing any hard work, confirmation that you're one of the good guys, then I'd advise you to head off to the bathroom and literally masturbate.  You'll get more of an endorphin rush.

2. When you say "Ta-Nehisi Coates is such a good writer," "what a beautifully written article," etc., you're being unintentionally racist, like the people calling Obama "so articulate (for a black guy)."  You wouldn't say the same thing about an article written by a white guy, so stop patronizing Coates.

3. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about left and right.  For example, probably the single best thing we could do to ease structural racism - overhauling and improving public education - is considered almost verboten on the left. Conservatives, on the other hand, are too often obtuse ("racism ended in 2008") or cynically resigned ("we'll never improve things") to contribute constructively to a policy response.

If you care about making the country a better place, don't treat structural racism as a proxy for some other political/identity fight.  All that does is marginalize the issue and make it less likely to be addressed.


Addressing point 3: a lot of people on the left fear change in the structure of education because, in a lot of places, that manifests as a gentrification of the school system as well-off parents put all their kids in private schools, and redraw district maps as to basically ghettoize public schools by cutting off their funding.

If you want an example of this, look at the debate over Baton Rouge (where I live) being separated into Baton Rouge proper and a new city of St. George that would take up a lot of the south of East Baton Rouge parish (where coincidentally a lot of well-off white people live...)
2014-05-25 02:10:02 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: Those quotes to me speak to one of the problems today. Black Wealth right now is being generated in mostly the entertainment pursuits because that is one of the few areas that we can have complete agency over. Two of the more celebrated instances of black wealth, Oprah Winfrey and Ervin Johnson got their money to start with by being entertainers (yes I lump pro athletes in with entertainers).

It has been notoriously difficult for Blacks to generate wealth by other means because we have to start from zero. And then we have to fight with everyone else that might already have in-roads to the marketplace just because of where they started at.

Eventually we as a people will get there, it's just that we are starting from really far behind.

Why does every black person think that whites have in-roads to the marketplace because of where they started?  I will agree that those in lets us the term "Planter class" have the in-roads and that class isn't just white folks anymore.  Those who have the money and power want to keep it within their little group and regardless of the color of your skin it is a hard place to get in.


Again, you are incorrect. This has been studied by actual scientists, not just using anecdotes. A black person with no criminal background has roughly the same chance of being hired as a white felon. The idea that black people get hired more than white people for the same job is patently false and demonstrably untrue.
2014-05-25 02:07:12 AM  
1 vote:

Carousel Beast: Does he acknowledge the many US soldiers who fought and died to end slavery?

Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Reparations for slavety is a stupid farking idea based on perhaps the largest collective appeal to emotion fallacy in modern race discussions.


Then it's a good thing that isn't what the article is about.
2014-05-25 02:06:15 AM  
1 vote:

Rincewind53: Dusk-You-n-Me: Rincewind53: but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.

T-NC is one of the best writers of our time.

I agree. The article is filled with absolutely fabulous lines, phrasing that cuts to the heart of the issue. Just came across this one:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about "black pathology," the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America's relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer."

He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."


Does he acknowledge the many US soldiers who fought and died to end slavery?

Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Reparations for slavety is a stupid farking idea based on perhaps the largest collective appeal to emotion fallacy in modern race discussions.
2014-05-25 02:05:06 AM  
1 vote:
A few points aimed at nobody in particular:

1. If you have any real-life proposals for ameliorating structural racism, please share them.  But if you don't, if you only want a "conversation about race," and what you really want is affirmation, to feel good about yourself without doing any hard work, confirmation that you're one of the good guys, then I'd advise you to head off to the bathroom and literally masturbate.  You'll get more of an endorphin rush.

2. When you say "Ta-Nehisi Coates is such a good writer," "what a beautifully written article," etc., you're being unintentionally racist, like the people calling Obama "so articulate (for a black guy)."  You wouldn't say the same thing about an article written by a white guy, so stop patronizing Coates.

3. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about left and right.  For example, probably the single best thing we could do to ease structural racism - overhauling and improving public education - is considered almost verboten on the left. Conservatives, on the other hand, are too often obtuse ("racism ended in 2008") or cynically resigned ("we'll never improve things") to contribute constructively to a policy response.

If you care about making the country a better place, don't treat structural racism as a proxy for some other political/identity fight.  All that does is marginalize the issue and make it less likely to be addressed.
2014-05-25 01:59:25 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: but to answer your question. If someone is more qualified gets the job over me. no worries that is the right call by the employer. equal qualified and I lose out due to the employer having to fill a quota, that's no good. the less qualified person getting the job well then i'm pissed.


What makes you more qualified? Why do you assume the minority person hired ahead of you is less qualified?

Waldo Pepper: You are the state dmv and i walk in and 90% of the jobs are filled by minorities in a area where minorities only make up 25% of the local population. seems a bit off and wrong.


Do you really believe that any type of governmental office has racial quotas stating 90% of employees must be minorities?

Is it at all possible that 90% of the people who applied for positions were minorities? Is it possible that these people were actually qualified for the job, and hired on their merits?

If you don't believe that all of the 90% could possibly be qualified for their jobs, then congratulations, you've hit on one of the major issues of the article.

Please read it.
2014-05-25 01:55:32 AM  
1 vote:

Kittypie070: Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society.....It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.

Look, flawed as his argument is, and thanks BTW for pointing that out....it's at least a reasonabe attempt at a start.

And look at the part of your statement that I bolded. There's a step forward if I've ever seen one.

Add Fubini's and Lsherm's comments [among others] to that and we can actually get somewhere.


I'd like that, from the perspective of one lone white guy who can see some of his privileges even while probably missing seeing others and lacking some people think I should have. But it's a multi-way conversation, and nobody is going to be thrilled at the solutions because they will likely involve slaughtering a lot of sacred cows on all sides. Fubini has some excellent ideas for combatting the institutional parts, I will defer to him (her?) on that because I suspect they are somewhat wiser than me on the topic.

Another anecdote (because I can only really speak from my experience), of something that probably happens frequently and is likely usually mishandled. A couple of years ago, I handled routing and scheduling for a fairly major grocery warehouse. One week coming up on a holiday weekend, much like this one, a truck driver asked me on Thursday if there was any way possible he could be off that Saturday as he had a fishing trip to go on. I told him it was not likely, but I would see what I could do. He asked if I was refusing because he was black. I pointed at the posted vacation board, where people had selected their vacations at the beginning of the year, and showed him that of the four allowed off, three were black, but all had made their requests at vacation selection time. Of the five people already on the "leave me off if you can" list, four were black, and all five had requested the possibility of being off before him, listed in order of date of request. (I'm good at scheduling, but ten people off on a holiday weekend is not an easy task by any means). I then queried if he asked me that just because I was white. He looked confused for a moment, thought about it, and then apologized respectfully. I learned that being fair and always treating everyone with equal responsibility works, and he learned that not every negative decision affecting him was motivated by race. Incidentally, I managed to leave him off, as two people cancelled their plans and decided they wanted to work that weekend, but he was pleasantly surprised by that rather than automatically expecting it.

Teaching society that kind of lesson is going to take years. You don't take opportunities away from people, you try to open up more.
2014-05-25 01:44:19 AM  
1 vote:
There is no racism in this country.

So say a bunch of class-dominant white people.
2014-05-25 01:40:36 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: I can believe that blacks aren't treated fair in this country and deserve some form of a break but at the same time be mad if I was passed over for a job simply due to the company having to hire a minority.


But you wouldn't feel that bad if the minority person was more qualified than you.

Which they would be if they had access to the same opportunities you do.
2014-05-25 01:36:58 AM  
1 vote:

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


It's not about revenge. It's about the system not screwing us in the backside every time we try to exercise our agency. Which has only really existed for blacks at large in the last generation and a half.

It's still viciously difficult for the typical Black family to amass wealth, which is what you need for a truly vibrant community, because a lot of us have to work double time to just to run in place.

You are only now starting to see truly wealthy black families in the last generation and a half or so. Of course this creates class dissent within the community (see the talk of the bourgeois black person, acting white).

But that is a discussion for a different article.
2014-05-25 01:32:55 AM  
1 vote:
If you can prove that you, personally, were held as a slave in the United States prior to the emancipation proclaimation, you should recieve a million dollars.
2014-05-25 01:32:32 AM  
1 vote:

Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society.....It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.


Look, flawed as his argument is, and thanks BTW for pointing that out....it's at least a reasonabe attempt at a start.

And look at the part of your statement that I bolded. There's a step forward if I've ever seen one.

Add Fubini's and Lsherm's comments [among others] to that and we can actually get somewhere.
2014-05-25 01:31:36 AM  
1 vote:

Babwa Wawa: Boojum2k: A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim.

This is why people need to RTFA.  For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.


Give it up, Babs - nobody is going to read that article.Especially not the people who are really pissed off about it.
2014-05-25 01:28:27 AM  
1 vote:

garkola: What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.


Pretty sure "Never Again" is a promise and a threat, not whining.
2014-05-25 01:28:06 AM  
1 vote:

bk3k: I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.  I have work in the morning or I'd read it now.  Granted I won't likely agree with it.  I'll tell you why.


There is ZERO reason to read your comment, then. Thanks for the warning!
2014-05-25 01:27:25 AM  
1 vote:

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


That's why smart people see to it that those they have f**ked over in the past get made whole BEFORE they get into that position.
2014-05-25 01:25:48 AM  
1 vote:
I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.  I have work in the morning or I'd read it now.  Granted I won't likely agree with it.  I'll tell you why.

Yes I am (mostly) caucasian.  That doesn't mean quite what you think it means.  You read that and you ASSUME... my ancestors benefited from slave labor.  But they did not.  My ancestors - most of them also caucasians as it where - did not own slaves.  No they didn't own a single slave.  In fact, that is a fact in more caucasian families than most realize.

I'd like to assume myself that the reason they did not own any slaves had to do with good moral standing, but that is likely not the case at all.  The far more likely scenario is this - slaves where expensive and my ancestors where poor.  The vast overwhelming majority of slaves where owned by RICH ELITE FAMILIES - most of those families themselves descended of European royalty and nobility.

These families once had serfs but after serfdom ended they turned to slaves - a distinction with little difference mind you.  Both are terrible and blatantly barbaric systems where the few elite exploit the forced labor of other people - people who are "beneath their master/lord."  The master/lord gets rich through no effort of his own.  My ancestors from even longer back where likely serfs themselves.  Hey how about my reparations?  Not happening I know.  My ancestors being made to serve a master of the same skin color somehow isn't as bad... or something.

Anyhow these families descended of royalty and nobility primarily moved into the South and setup plantations.  The Southern mentality that says people always have what they deserve (and thus all the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor, while all the rich deserve to be rich).  In those day they where more fond of claiming it "God's will."  But that i where your Southern Conservative mentality comes from - as it continues to persist today.

These are the people who owned nearly all the slaves.  These are the people who immorally profited off slave labor.  For the most part their descendents are the elite rich of today.

That being the case, taxing all those of European heritage and giving the proceeds to those of African heritage is not justified.  Tax only the super-wealthy and use it to provide the descendants of slaves with reparations?  That I can agree with far more.

Now one other thing everyone should start to realize - there are people now who are making every attempt to reinstate de-facto serfdom, only they aren't calling it that now.  They use buzz words like "free market," "trickle down," etc and talk plenty of "Liberty" and "Freedom" but they really mean the "Freedom"  of the wealthy elite to exploit the poor more completely than they already do right now.

It is true that statistically those Americans of African descent are being held down - but primarily their race is NOT the prime factor anymore.  They continue to suffer from a legacy of poverty - one generation to the next.  The racism is a distraction from what is really holding them down... classism.  If you want to really help them - a lump some payout is a very poor way indeed.  All that money will be gone in no time.

What they really need is socio-economic reforms that benefit the poor.  Americans of African descent ARE disproportionately poor.  Policies that give poor people a chance will therefore disproportionately benefit Americans of African descent for purely statistical reasons.   But once you start putting all this together... you understand why the elites continue to promote racial tension.  The elite want all the fruits of this nation to themselves - and so to avoid paying us back what they owe us... they pit different races of poor people against each other.  I can't help but admit that their strategy is VERY effective.

Anyhow instead of a lump sum payout, what Americans of African descent actually need is a fair chance at being successful.  They don't have it right now.  Through better socio-economic reforms (notably among them things like minimum wage increases) - and especially through providing the poor better education and training - they will be able to climb up the ladder themselves.
2014-05-25 01:20:22 AM  
1 vote:

Brick-House: [www.weeklystandard.com image 640x467]


Let's throw the DoD budget on there, just for shiats and giggles.
2014-05-25 01:13:51 AM  
1 vote:

BlueDWarrior: It's the black man's fault...
It's the black woman's fault...
It's the black child's fault...

Is that what we are really saying?

I honestly want to know...


I, for one, was not taught that when I was growing up. I don't believe it and I never have.
2014-05-25 01:12:13 AM  
1 vote:

moothemagiccow: Explain how. You already shot down reparations. I'm blackballing affirmative action. Go.


Since you're blackballing affirmative action, it would seem that you're asking me for a solution to a problem you don't seem to think exists.   Which leads me to think that you're not going to take any of my suggestions seriously.

Not that you should.  I'm no sociologist - I've only read on the evidence of the imbalance, rather than the possibilities of rectification.

Still,  I can think up a number of ways - re-written residential mortgage rules, a beefed up FHA, more teeth to equal education regulation.  If you gave me some time, I could really think up a slew of meaningful things which would have measurable impact.

This all would depend on folks like yourself admitting that there's a problem in the first place, an admission of which doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
2014-05-25 12:55:50 AM  
1 vote:

Kittypie070: then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place?


i1.ytimg.com
"And I'm rich!"

2014-05-25 12:52:33 AM  
1 vote:
So, when they tracked down all that art and treasure that the Nazis stole, and confiscated it from the heirs of those now- dead Nazis, and returned it to the descendants of the also now-dead Jews they stole it from, that was wrong? Because all culpability and liability ends at the moment of death? I don't think so.
If I enjoy wealth and social privilege that were stolen from your ancestors, and that you do not enjoy - are you and me just squaresy waresy, and everything cool? If so, you're a bigger man than I am.
2014-05-25 12:50:30 AM  
1 vote:

jso2897: They are terrified that someone might take away from them something they never earned and don't own to begin with.


But they did inherit the "labors" of their ancestors who killed off the natives, exploited generations of slave labor, and systematically stole any accumulation of wealth on the part of the descendants of slaves.

It's not white guilt, it's human understanding. If we can actually examine the problems caused by generations of institutionalized bias, we might start to see some solutions.
2014-05-25 12:45:02 AM  
1 vote:

Waldo Pepper: taurusowner: OK. Find me someone who was a slave, find someone who owned slaves, and make them pay the first person reparations. If you can't do that, shut the fark up about it. If you weren't a slave, you aren't owed shiat for slavery. If you didn't own slaves, you don't owe anyone shiat for slavery.

Your crimes are yours, mine are mine. I will not pay for yours, and I will not ask you to pay for mine.

I have a cousin who's was a slave along with her brother's and mom in Brazil in the 60's but I guess that doesn't count for this discussion


Actually that does count. If those people who really were slaves can find the people responsible, and there was some way to make them pay reparations, they absolutely should.

Consider a parallel to the way people still hunt Nazi concentration camp officers. These are guys who are in their 80s and 90s. And yet when they find one, every attempt is made at bringing them to justice for the crimes they personally did commit or oversaw. That is entirely justified. But would it be justified to send their children or grandchildren to prison because of what their parent or grandparent did? Of course not. Once the people who actually committed the crimes die, it's over. You cannot justly go after their descendants just because you couldn't get to them in time. Your children do not inherit your guilt for anything. Not for stealing a TV, not for running a concentration camp, and not for slavery. I'm sorry that those responsible were never properly brought to justice for slavery. But they're dead and that's that. Their great grandchildren do not owe anyone anything for crimes that happened a century+ before they were even born.
2014-05-25 12:43:23 AM  
1 vote:

Babwa Wawa: moothemagiccow: Why should I bother to read the article when you just told me it was largely a waste of time?

I know, right?  I don't want to think about difficult problems either.  I'll just go look at porn.


As far as I can tell, the whole "institutional racism" thing is just recreational outrage. Nobody has a practical way of fixing it so they just fawn over minorities, act like privilege is something only other people have and make a fuss about affirmative action in the cast of saturday night live. Or whatever's "disgraceful" this month. I'm pretty sure we were on the Redskins, who got a pass for 82 years, but only  now their name is offensive.

//dnrtfa
//tl;dr
2014-05-25 12:42:01 AM  
1 vote:

ox45tallboy: jso2897: Even at this point in the thread, most of the posters make it obvious that they didn't RTFA at all.
They think somebody is talking about randomly writing checks to black folks.

The irony I see is that the point of the article is about having a discussion, actually looking at facts about institutionalized racism, and how difficult it is to have an honest conversation about what happened and how bad it was.

Apparently not only is that impossible, it's impossible to get people to talk about having the conversation.


They are terrified that someone might take away from them something they never earned and don't own to begin with.
2014-05-25 12:40:17 AM  
1 vote:

jso2897: Even at this point in the thread, most of the posters make it obvious that they didn't RTFA at all.
They think somebody is talking about randomly writing checks to black folks.


The irony I see is that the point of the article is about having a discussion, actually looking at facts about institutionalized racism, and how difficult it is to have an honest conversation about what happened and how bad it was.

Apparently not only is that impossible, it's impossible to get people to talk about having the conversation.
2014-05-25 12:37:27 AM  
1 vote:

odinsposse: taurusowner: Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.

So nobody alive today was around for the redlining of the 1960's? Are our mortality rates really that bad?


You'll be hard pressed to find many people who were responsible for instituting redlining still in any position of authority
2014-05-25 12:36:41 AM  
1 vote:

I Browse: phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


Okay, I'll give it a shot.

As I read through the thread, I see that most people here are hung up on the slavery aspect of the story. That's understandable I guess, because the reparations arguments of the past have almost always centered on redress for slave labor. But the article (which I read yesterday) spends very little time on slavery. Hell, it doesn't even dwell on the Jim Crow south. Coates spends the vast majority of the article talking about how we were systematically, legally, and intentionally locked out of the American dream long after slavery was abolished, and he uses Chicago as a case study.

As a black person, do I want reparations? Nope. Not because I think it's a silly idea. But because I think it's the easy way out. I don't want the U.S. government writing a bunch of checks and then saying "Okay, we good now?" It completely oversimplifies the issue.

What the author is advocating in this article (if I read it correctly, and I believe I did) is not really financial reparations, but rather, acknowledgment and introspection. And on that point, I agree wholeheartedly. If America was ready to have an honest conversation about what has been done to black people in this country beyond slavery...then we wouldn't have people asking stupid questions like "Why can't blacks get their shiat together?" "Why can immigrants come here and succeed but blacks can't?" "Why are the blacks always complaining?"

Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:


I can tell you what I think of it personally.

They want everyone to just shut up and go back to their supposedly minimum wage job (if they even work) and just accept the system for what it is.

Because that is what they do.

Anyone who agitates the system to try and get more out of it is a threat.

I don't even want a check, I just want actual fairness and equity in the system, instead of nice happy talk about how we are a race blind society now.

Because if you think that our system even resembles fair, you can go jump in the Mighty Mississippi for all I care.
2014-05-25 12:34:49 AM  
1 vote:

I Browse: phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


Okay, I'll give it a shot.

As I read through the thread, I see that most people here are hung up on the slavery aspect of the story. That's understandable I guess, because the reparations arguments of the past have almost always centered on redress for slave labor. But the article (which I read yesterday) spends very little time on slavery. Hell, it doesn't even dwell on the Jim Crow south. Coates spends the vast majority of the article talking about how we were systematically, legally, and intentionally locked out of the American dream long after slavery was abolished, and he uses Chicago as a case study.

As a black person, do I want reparations? Nope. Not because I think it's a silly idea. But because I think it's the easy way out. I don't want the U.S. government writing a bunch of checks and then saying "Okay, we good now?" It completely oversimplifies the issue.

What the author is advocating in this article (if I read it correctly, and I believe I did) is not really financial reparations, but rather, acknowledgment and introspection. And on that point, I agree wholeheartedly. If America was ready to have an honest conversation about what has been done to black people in this country beyond slavery...then we wouldn't have people asking stupid questions like "Why can't blacks get their shiat together?" "Why can immigrants come here and succeed but blacks can't?" "Why are the blacks always complaining?"

Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:

[www.leftycartoons.com image 650x511]


Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.
2014-05-25 12:33:49 AM  
1 vote:

Miss Alexandra: Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.


Exactly right, because TFA talks mostly about the things that have set black people back which happened in the 1920's-80's. So who owned slaves and world wide slavery really don't counter anything the article is about. But you were just being ironic, right?
2014-05-25 12:33:18 AM  
1 vote:
OK. Find me someone who was a slave, find someone who owned slaves, and make them pay the first person reparations. If you can't do that, shut the fark up about it. If you weren't a slave, you aren't owed shiat for slavery. If you didn't own slaves, you don't owe anyone shiat for slavery.

Your crimes are yours, mine are mine. I will not pay for yours, and I will not ask you to pay for mine.
2014-05-25 12:32:11 AM  
1 vote:

fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"


I'll say this as many times as it needs repeating: A house is something you live in, not something you invest in/gamble on. We apparently did not learn our lesson that houses are not casino chips from the last collapse. Bunch of farking...
2014-05-25 12:30:46 AM  
1 vote:

BlueDWarrior: advex101: Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.

Its beyond blame at this point.

We just want an audit just so we can see just how screwed we've been as a people.

Maybe then we can consider the proper structure going forward.


Why do you speak of yourself as though you represent a pure racial group?  It would make more sense to base your argument on economics than race.  And, you would find that you have more supporters.
2014-05-25 12:24:19 AM  
1 vote:
"A neighborhood where African-Americans live cannot receive FHA funding. And that went beyond the FHA. Banks decided who they were going to lend money to based on FHA policy. You can look at a map of the city of Chicago and see where the loans were and where the loans weren't. And this is a practice that lasted on paper -- on paper -- into 1960, and likely much longer than that."
2014-05-25 12:23:31 AM  
1 vote:
Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.
2014-05-25 12:21:57 AM  
1 vote:

The Southern Dandy: I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?


I'm curious as to whether you've read the article?  Have you read all of it?  Looked up all the words you don't comprehend immediately?  Conferred with others as to the differing interpretations of context?

Who decides?
2014-05-25 12:17:53 AM  
1 vote:

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


Liberia
2014-05-25 12:16:01 AM  
1 vote:

oh_please: I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.


I'm confused.  Should I be guilty over what happened in the 18th or 19th century?  Maybe the predatory sh*t that went down in the mid to late 20th century?  Or wait, should I want to do something to stop the predatory lending practices that go in right now, right here in the 21st century, in some place in the US that you presumably prefer to ignore?
2014-05-25 12:15:24 AM  
1 vote:

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm an American.

And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.


So African-Americans will pay this reparation as well?  You know, the ones that enjoy the fruits of their ancestors slave labor?
2014-05-25 12:09:29 AM  
1 vote:

ox45tallboy: I for one found it rather educational. I didn't know anything about the "on contract" buying, or the fact that it was actually the Federal government that set the districts eligible for loan assistance based on racial makeup of the neighborhood.


I did too, and I had no idea.  Educational it was, but the historical bit was not surprising to me.

How he wrapped up the article should make anyone take notice.  The racially correlated stats on predatory real estate lending is eye-opening, and deserves investigation.
2014-05-25 12:09:23 AM  
1 vote:

Babwa Wawa: Flying Lasagna Monster: "Sit down, my son.   We don't read most of the articles. Do you really know what that would entail ... if we were to read every article that was posted on Fark?

You're right of course.  But this is an article that people should read and comprehend - before trying to compose arguments against it.  It's been on the twitters and reddits for a while now.  Kind of surprising it's just hitting fark.


I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.
2014-05-25 12:03:13 AM  
1 vote:

OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


The discussion is about using tax dollars to narrow the social gap caused by racism and slavery.

Penance is a religious term about the forgiving of sin.
The only reason that you could use that term in this context is if you worship money.
2014-05-25 12:01:30 AM  
1 vote:

phenn: You might wish to read a history book there, kitty cat.


You might wish to read a newspaper.

/or blog, or whatever the modern medium for chronicling contemporary events is
2014-05-24 11:58:08 PM  
1 vote:

poot_rootbeer: phenn: I acknowledge that immigrants to the US (some under duress) have been treated monstrously. In particular, Africans, sold into slavery by their own brethren and countrymen. Also Irish, Asian, Latino and Jewish (to varying degrees).

That's very brave of you to take the stance that slavery is bad, while putting the blame squarely where it belongs: on other people of the same ethnicity as the people who were enslaved.


You might wish to read a history book there, kitty cat.
2014-05-24 11:56:11 PM  
1 vote:

vernonFL: [www.spd.org image 580x403]

Slavery ended years ago. I don't know anyone who was a slave.


If you want to combat slavery maybe we can chip in for a one-way flight to Africa or Asia where it's still commonplace.
You might be killed since you're white, though.
2014-05-24 11:56:10 PM  
1 vote:

phenn: I acknowledge that immigrants to the US (some under duress) have been treated monstrously. In particular, Africans, sold into slavery by their own brethren and countrymen. Also Irish, Asian, Latino and Jewish (to varying degrees).


That's very brave of you to take the stance that slavery is bad, while putting the blame squarely where it belongs: on other people of the same ethnicity as the people who were enslaved.
2014-05-24 11:53:33 PM  
1 vote:
vernonFL:
You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.
... etc etc



img.fark.net
2014-05-24 11:51:14 PM  
1 vote:

sprgrss: This is where your argument loses points and validity. You cannot look at someone's skin and make a determination on family history.


You're right, I can't. I shouldn't generalize. I don't know everyone's situation.
2014-05-24 11:50:15 PM  
1 vote:
The author makes her case in the first blurb under the title the rest of it is just well written icing on the cake.
2014-05-24 11:50:07 PM  
1 vote:
EVERYONE who was alive during slavery is long farkING dead. The suffering is over, get the fark over it! I do not farking care if your great, great grandfather had a friend who's father was a slave!! NO white person who is currently alive has anything to do with it! NO black person who is currently alive was EVER a farking slave! Sure, we have racism that needs to be eradicated, but that is entirely different than reparations for slavery!
2014-05-24 11:49:23 PM  
1 vote:

OgreMagi: Dusk-You-n-Me: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

It's not about me, it's about us as a country. We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.

Yeah, racism is so bad that black men can't even get elected to important offices.


American born black men still can't...
2014-05-24 11:48:38 PM  
1 vote:
I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.
2014-05-24 11:48:11 PM  
1 vote:

vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.


This is where your argument loses points and validity.  You cannot look at someone's skin and make a determination on family history.
2014-05-24 11:45:34 PM  
1 vote:

OgreMagi: Yeah, racism is so bad that black men can't even get elected to important offices.


Watch the video. He addresses this.
2014-05-24 11:44:59 PM  
1 vote:
That was indeed an interesting and well written article.  But since this is Fark and it involves race, so much this:

i.imgur.com
2014-05-24 11:44:18 PM  
1 vote:
Or you could realize that some wounds never, ever heal and that it is okay to try and live your life to the fullest despite them.
2014-05-24 11:44:00 PM  
1 vote:

EngineerAU: Man, this is the most "read the article" dense thread I've seen in a long long time. Fark, what happened to you?


An opinion on racial relations that doesn't entirely mesh with their narrow world views is what happened.
2014-05-24 11:36:32 PM  
1 vote:

Rincewind53: He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."


If that's a "powerful point" then the article must be pretty weak. Why should someone (like me) who comes from post-slavery immigrants accept responsibility? I had nothing to do with it. And, should the descendants of black slave-owners pay restitution? What about those who had some ancestors who were slaves and some who were slave owners... should they pay themselves? Heck, let's just tax straight, white males (to cover gender and sexual orientation reparations while we're at it) and call it a day.
2014-05-24 11:36:23 PM  
1 vote:

Phinn: Any person who was enslaved should be awarded restitution from the person who violated his rights.

Does anyone here know anyone like that?


I'll take that a step further.  While I don't believe any of my American ancestors owned slaves, I can't say for certain.  So I will personally give $1000 to anyone who was held as a slave by on of my ancestors.  I do not think anyone should be punished for "sins of their father", but I'm willing to extend an olive branch here.
2014-05-24 11:35:47 PM  
1 vote:
I would be very concerned about that if I was stabbing any black people.
2014-05-24 11:33:35 PM  
1 vote:

DubtodaIll: did read it. It doesn't change the fact that any concessions given over the past come from those in power to give those concessions. I don't see how that help anyone achieve greatness or success. It is conceding that you are unable to make yourself happy on your own and that you need the help of those in power to accomplish that.


Well, I'm not going to argue that you didn't read it, then.  I will argue that you're choosing to ignore it.  At no point does he call for direct payments, or anything else in your strawman argument.
2014-05-24 11:30:24 PM  
1 vote:

lizaardvark: IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?

An entire country. See "Liberia".


How's that workin' out for them?
2014-05-24 11:27:16 PM  
1 vote:

vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]


Freeloading blacks want handouts. MY family never owned slaves!


Isn't that something. Just to go to school.

....sigh....
2014-05-24 11:25:35 PM  
1 vote:

Yogimus: So does oppression against chinese, whites, jews, mexicans, etc... What makes one group a sacred cow, while the others consistently succeed?


I wouldn't say that Chinese and Mexicans consistently succeed. In fact, a lot of Chinese and Mexicans still work in low class slave labor type jobs.
2014-05-24 11:23:27 PM  
1 vote:

DubtodaIll: Reparations are handouts.


Correction:  Reparations CAN be handouts.  You lack imagination.

Also, you lack the ability to READ THE F*CKING ARTICLE.
2014-05-24 11:20:25 PM  
1 vote:

Babwa Wawa: People don't want to sit down and read something that can't be consumed in less than 60 seconds, yet feel compelled to offer an opinion.


Well, in their defense, I've written book reports on shorter Steinbeck novels.
2014-05-24 11:18:45 PM  
1 vote:
And for the record, I hardly see a workable solution to TFA's author's issues, as race-based reparations are difficult to implement and would be questionable in both justification and effect.

That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.
2014-05-24 11:15:19 PM  
1 vote:
fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"


Neighbor, please.
2014-05-24 11:14:12 PM  
1 vote:
Obama should use his executive powers to give reparations to everyone who isn't white and doesn't have a penis.
2014-05-24 11:10:32 PM  
1 vote:
40 acres and a mule, Jack.
2014-05-23 11:56:16 PM  
1 vote:

Rincewind53: And "sundown towns", which were towns where blacks were not allowed on the streets after dark, existed until the 1980s. I was born less than five years after the last sundown down went away.


The sign was still there at the city limits of Cullman, AL in 1998. Nineteen - F*cking - Ninety - Eight. I saw it with my own eyes.

If I was half the man I am now I would have taken it down myself, but I didn't live there and had no idea what I might have started.

Last year, two counties away, there was a "religious revival" ending with a "Christian Cross Burning."

But at least the sign is gone now, so I guess that's something.
2014-05-22 03:37:56 PM  
1 vote:

violentsalvation: [i.imgur.com image 380x285]


i.imgur.com
2014-05-22 03:35:51 PM  
1 vote:
i.imgur.com
2014-05-22 03:22:43 PM  
1 vote:
Wow.

I'm only a third of the way through, but what a spectacular read.

I'll have to finish later.
 
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