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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 951
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11186 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-25 01:03:30 PM

Elegy: lilplatinum: So your first map tells us that the north has more metropolitan areas, and your other comparisons reveal the startling fact that Detroit is an even shiattier place to live than Atlanta.

Thus the South is better.... quod erat demonstrandum

In which you ignore the fact that I said "this comparison holds across most major metropolitan areas."

And the fact that I specifically mentioned that the majority of 5th quintile cities are in the north - which would mean the proportion of 5th quintile cities is higher in the north than the south, something that is easily assessed by taking 30 seconds to interpret the map I posted.

Would you like to explain to me why the northern states incarcerate blacks at a ratio of 13:1 against whites?

[i.imgur.com image 850x607]

"Thus the north is better - because I feel it to be true based upon my own prejudices and feelings"

Good jerb.


That's interesting.  Idaho is at the far bottom, but home to the Arian Nations.  Something unintuitive is going on here.  I fear you've made the correlation = causation mistake.
 
2014-05-25 01:09:06 PM

Waldo Pepper: how would you know? there are folks who enjoy being the big fish in a little fish bowl. If you have money in a small rural southern town you can live fairly well and enjoy traveling to the grand location of the world seeing as 50-75% of your pay doesn't go toward your housing as it does in the better areas in the USA. There are a lot of beautiful areas in the South and a lot of them are in the poorer areas. Being a mayor of a small town that is only 1/2 hour away from the beach where you can afford to have a weekend place isn't a bad life.


Much the same can be said where I am, that said economic mobility is almost 3x here than it is in almost the entire old south.  You see the difference?  The genetic lottery just doesn't mean as much here.

You fix that, you fix a lot of issues, including racism.
 
2014-05-25 01:11:09 PM
*Walks into the thread and sees body parts and entrails splattered all over the walls. No survivors, just carnage.*

*Backs out slowly, shutting off the light and closing the door*
 
2014-05-25 01:13:58 PM
rohar

That's interesting. Idaho is at the far bottom, but home to the Arian Nations.

What do non-trinitarians have to do with anything?
 
2014-05-25 01:15:15 PM

rohar: Yes, I do. But you brought up the trigger word "pride". I am proud of where I am from. But to exhibit pride, first you have to be good at something.


No. Pride in place does not have to be tied to economic achievement. You can be proud of your cultural values, proud of your traditions, proud of your history, proud of your lineage (even if that lineage is populated by dirt poor subsistence farmers). You can be proud of these things, and proud that these things made you into the person you are, while still acknowledging that elsewhere is better, richer, or more educated.

The county I was born in has the highest financial mobility in the nation. Among the best public education in the nation. While the minority population is low, they're more successful than the entire rest of the minority population in the country. Those of us that grew up in that system are good at things.

This is something you should be proud of, yes. But "while the minority population is low" suggest to me that you are ignoring a key fact: would your county have been as successful at promoting racial and economic equality as if 50% of the population was black and living below the poverty line?

Starting from a racially and economically homogenous base makes promoting "egalitarianism" much, much easier. The base conditions in the south are much more difficult.

I hate to break this to you, but "The North" is more than the northeast. We do things differently out west.

LOL WUT? I am specifically taking about the north east and central northern states. I haven't once mentioned the west. I would love to move out west, largely for the economic opportunity - I've been talking to the wife about it as she is beginning the job hunt after obtaining her PhD. You guys do well.

But really, you just said "the north isn't just the states in the north, look at the west." Fantastic non-sequitur, but you're not making much logical sense. Even dumb southerners like me are well aware that the western states are culturally and economically distinct from the northern states.

I'm not suggesting moving, I'm suggesting emulating truly successful societies within this country. Being a mayor or police officer in the south ain't no great shakes no matter your race. Wearing a crown of shiat doesn't make you a king. There is much better that could be done, and race is only a very small part of it.

You still aren't making any sense. "I'm not suggesting moving but any achievement in the south sucks because it is in the south."

What other option are you suggesting? Just giving up and not achieving anything? Stopping your efforts to improve the place you live?

If, by definition, any achievement in the south is a "crown of shiat" as you suggest, then, by definition, to actually achieve something you would have to move.

You are absolutely fantastic at sloppy thinking and non-sequiturs. Not to mention you've just shrugged off decades of blood, sweat, and tears of generations of southerners - white and black - to improve the place they live, exactly as you claim to want.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with you? Are you drunk?
 
2014-05-25 01:17:07 PM

Waldo Pepper: heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.


Again, this assumes that the criminals live in my neighborhood and just take an el train downtown to rob the yuppies.  Why do you assume that there are any more criminals living in my area than in any other in the city?

Oh, right, because I mentioned that I live in a non-white-majority area.  Clearly, my neighbors are all gang-bangers who just don't want to shiat where they eat, and there's nothing to steal here because blacks are poors.

Once again, anyone pretending that racism is even remotely dead in this country is a farking nutbag.
 
2014-05-25 01:17:27 PM

rohar: That's interesting.  Idaho is at the far bottom, but home to the Arian Nations.  Something unintuitive is going on here.  I fear you've made the correlation = causation mistake.


You are making a categorical mistake, as well as a mistake in extrapolating from the small to the large.

I am talking about institutional racism - the broad racism of the judicial institutions, in particular.

You are taking a single example of a small group of racist, and trying to extrapolate to Idaho.
 
2014-05-25 01:20:03 PM

Freudian_slipknot: Waldo Pepper: heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.

Again, this assumes that the criminals live in my neighborhood and just take an el train downtown to rob the yuppies.  Why do you assume that there are any more criminals living in my area than in any other in the city?

Oh, right, because I mentioned that I live in a non-white-majority area.  Clearly, my neighbors are all gang-bangers who just don't want to shiat where they eat, and there's nothing to steal here because blacks are poors.

Once again, anyone pretending that racism is even remotely dead in this country is a farking nutbag.


You beat the hell out of that straw man.

Rofl good one
 
2014-05-25 01:23:30 PM

rohar: Waldo Pepper: how would you know? there are folks who enjoy being the big fish in a little fish bowl. If you have money in a small rural southern town you can live fairly well and enjoy traveling to the grand location of the world seeing as 50-75% of your pay doesn't go toward your housing as it does in the better areas in the USA. There are a lot of beautiful areas in the South and a lot of them are in the poorer areas. Being a mayor of a small town that is only 1/2 hour away from the beach where you can afford to have a weekend place isn't a bad life.

Much the same can be said where I am, that said economic mobility is almost 3x here than it is in almost the entire old south.  You see the difference?  The genetic lottery just doesn't mean as much here.

You fix that, you fix a lot of issues, including racism.


i guess it depends on what you enjoy. I agree that there needs to be a change towards growth but maybe a more control growth and not the rapid uncontrolled growth that has turn a lot of the mid-atlantic into nothing more than a shopping mall.

There is a changing of the old guard happening as the older jim crow generation is dying off.
 
2014-05-25 01:28:26 PM

Elegy: This is something you should be proud of, yes. But "while the minority population is low" suggest to me that you are ignoring a key fact: would your county have been as successful at promoting racial and economic equality as if 50% of the population was black and living below the poverty line?


I went to grade school with Leonard Pelletier's niece.  I was born at Ft. Peck.  You might want to educate yourself about racial divisions outside of your own back yard before casting judgments.  In short, you don't know poor.  We do.  She's doing extremely well today though.  She get's to exhibit pride, she's damned good at something.  Our community should be proud, we produced her and many others..

Elegy: LOL WUT? I am specifically taking about the north east and central northern states.


Elegy: The base conditions in the south are much more difficult.


Much more difficult than what?  Wounded Knee?  Get a grip man.

Elegy: LOL WUT? I am specifically taking about the north east and central northern states. I haven't once mentioned the west. I would love to move out west, largely for the economic opportunity - I've been talking to the wife about it as she is beginning the job hunt after obtaining her PhD. You guys do well.But really, you just said "the north isn't just the states in the north, look at the west." Fantastic non-sequitur, but you're not making much logical sense. Even dumb southerners like me are well aware that the western states are culturally and economically distinct from the northern states.


Uh, I hate to break this to you, but Montana and North Dakota are "the north".  If you go 90 miles from my current home in WA, you're in another country.  Pretty friggin north.  You mentioned the north, not the northeast.

Elegy: Starting from a racially and economically homogenous base makes promoting "egalitarianism" much, much easier. The base conditions in the south are much more difficult.


Again, born on the res, married a Blackfoot wife, where the fark are you going with this?

Elegy: What other option are you suggesting?


There are distinct societal issues in the south relating to power and position outside of race that must be resolved before any issues with race can be resolved.  I'd suggest stop being so damned "proud" and start getting to work resolving them.
 
2014-05-25 01:30:21 PM

Elegy: rohar: That's interesting.  Idaho is at the far bottom, but home to the Arian Nations.  Something unintuitive is going on here.  I fear you've made the correlation = causation mistake.

You are making a categorical mistake, as well as a mistake in extrapolating from the small to the large.

I am talking about institutional racism - the broad racism of the judicial institutions, in particular.

You are taking a single example of a small group of racist, and trying to extrapolate to Idaho.


It's extreme, I agree, but it's not that much of a jump.  If you watch Idaho politics, it's not pretty.  There's a reason AN chose that state.
 
2014-05-25 01:33:24 PM

Freudian_slipknot: Waldo Pepper: heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.

Again, this assumes that the criminals live in my neighborhood and just take an el train downtown to rob the yuppies.  Why do you assume that there are any more criminals living in my area than in any other in the city?

Oh, right, because I mentioned that I live in a non-white-majority area.  Clearly, my neighbors are all gang-bangers who just don't want to shiat where they eat, and there's nothing to steal here because blacks are poors.

Once again, anyone pretending that racism is even remotely dead in this country is a farking nutbag.


no because you gave the impression that the area you lived in was known for it's bad element and in doing so you made sure you included "yuppies" in your statements. yuppies aren't white but they do have money so again you made it sound like you lived in a lower end area. 

i've never known anyone that looks at a upper class neighborhood and thinks it is filled with criminals simply based on the color of the folks who live in the neighborhood.

nice trolling i took you bait assuming you were part of an adult discussion.
 
2014-05-25 01:36:33 PM

legy: Would you like to explain to me why the northern states incarcerate blacks at a ratio of 13:1 against whites?


Because they have far more metropolitan areas where the problems of the black community are generally concentrated.  The deep south has only Atlanta in the top 20 metropolitan areas.  So adjusting for "the south" is essentially just adjusting for Atlanta vs. every other metropolitan area.

Elegy: "Thus the north is better - because I feel it to be true based upon my own prejudices and feelings"


The north is better because its not filled with baptists.
 
2014-05-25 01:36:51 PM
For everyone who DNRTFA, here's the best summary paragraph.

Having been enslaved for 250 years, black people were not left to their own devices. They were terrorized. In the Deep South, a second slavery ruled. In the North, legislatures, mayors, civic associations, banks, and citizens all colluded to pin black people into ghettos, where they were overcrowded, overcharged, and undereducated. Businesses discriminated against them, awarding them the worst jobs and the worst wages. Police brutalized them in the streets. And the notion that black lives, black bodies, and black wealth were rightful targets remained deeply rooted in the broader society. Now we have half-stepped away from our long centuries of despoilment, promising, "Never again." But still we are haunted. It is as though we have run up a credit-card bill and, having pledged to charge no more, remain befuddled that the balance does not disappear. The effects of that balance, interest accruing daily, are all around us.
 
2014-05-25 01:50:30 PM

Waldo Pepper: Freudian_slipknot: Waldo Pepper: heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.

Again, this assumes that the criminals live in my neighborhood and just take an el train downtown to rob the yuppies.  Why do you assume that there are any more criminals living in my area than in any other in the city?

Oh, right, because I mentioned that I live in a non-white-majority area.  Clearly, my neighbors are all gang-bangers who just don't want to shiat where they eat, and there's nothing to steal here because blacks are poors.

Once again, anyone pretending that racism is even remotely dead in this country is a farking nutbag.

no because you gave the impression that the area you lived in was known for it's bad element and in doing so you made sure you included "yuppies" in your statements. yuppies aren't white but they do have money so again you made it sound like you lived in a lower end area. 

i've never known anyone that looks at a upper class neighborhood and thinks it is filled with criminals simply based on the color of the folks who live in the neighborhood.

nice trolling i took you bait assuming you were part of an adult discussion.


How many "upper class" neighborhoods have you ever seen that were predominantly black?   Just curious.  Also, I have no doubt that many of the upper class neighborhoods around Chicago are stacked to the ceilings with criminals, but they're more likely to be skimming off my tax dollars with TIF or raiding their company's pensions than selling dime bags of pot.

Do you comprehend that there are levels between "poor, possession-less criminals" and "upper class"? When you drive through an area with young families and smaller homes, do you generally think "these people must steal from the upper class somewhere else"?  What about if those young families and smaller homes are filled with black or hispanic people?
 
2014-05-25 01:51:17 PM

rohar: I went to grade school with Leonard Pelletier's niece.  I was born at Ft. Peck.  You might want to educate yourself about racial divisions outside of your own back yard before casting judgments.  In short, you don't know poor.  We do.  She's doing extremely well today though.  She get's to exhibit pride, she's damned good at something.  Our community should be proud, we produced her and many others..


And the particular racial division we are talking about is white/black. It's the topic of TFA and this thread. Bringing Native Americans into it is a topic outside of what we were actually talking about.

You want to talk about Naive Americans, submit an article about reparations for Native Americans and we'll talk.

Much more difficult than what?  Wounded Knee?  Get a grip man.

Difficult in the sense that when you start in a county where 50+% of your population is dirt poor and culturally and racially distinct from the rest of the population, "equality" is a much harder goal to work towards.

Uh, I hate to break this to you, but Montana and North Dakota are "the north".  If you go 90 miles from my current home in WA, you're in another country.  Pretty friggin north.  You mentioned the north, not the northeast.

Uh, I hate to break it to you but you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood the division I am relying upon when I say "the north" and "the south."

i.imgur.com

In this map, the south is the tidewater, greater Appalachia, the Deep South, and New France - what is more commonly called "Dixie"

The "north" would be anything else except el Norte, the far west, or the left coast - which would be "the west"

I am specifically talking about the socioperceptual and cultural regions of the north and south, not a strict geographic division. These regions have their roots in the civil war, and the acrimony between "the north" and "the south" still exists today. Read any one of the threads on the south, and tell me it doesn't.

There are distinct societal issues in the south relating to power and position outside of race that must be resolved before any issues with race can be resolved. I'd suggest stop being so damned "proud" and start getting to work resolving them.

Oh we are, which would be the reason institutional racism is much worse in the north than in the south. You see, we've been hard at work since the 60's, while the rest of the US has been falling further behind. We still have quite a long way to go, of course, but we've made more progress in realizing equality than anywhere else in the US in the past 60 years.

That is something we should be proud of, don't you think? That was, after all, what you said.

Of course, people like you tell us this is a "crown of shiat" because you look down on southerners, but people like you have always existed - ignorant and unaware of reality because of your own regional prejudices.

It's extreme, I agree, but it's not that much of a jump. If you watch Idaho politics, it's not pretty. There's a reason AN chose that state.

"My logical fallacies are ok because I feel they are." Good lord man, you tell me to get a grip? Thus far you haven't offered a single shred of evidence for anything you've said, beyond your own feelings and anecdotes.
 
2014-05-25 01:53:35 PM

Freudian_slipknot: Waldo Pepper: Freudian_slipknot: Waldo Pepper: heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.

Again, this assumes that the criminals live in my neighborhood and just take an el train downtown to rob the yuppies.  Why do you assume that there are any more criminals living in my area than in any other in the city?

Oh, right, because I mentioned that I live in a non-white-majority area.  Clearly, my neighbors are all gang-bangers who just don't want to shiat where they eat, and there's nothing to steal here because blacks are poors.

Once again, anyone pretending that racism is even remotely dead in this country is a farking nutbag.

no because you gave the impression that the area you lived in was known for it's bad element and in doing so you made sure you included "yuppies" in your statements. yuppies aren't white but they do have money so again you made it sound like you lived in a lower end area. 

i've never known anyone that looks at a upper class neighborhood and thinks it is filled with criminals simply based on the color of the folks who live in the neighborhood.

nice trolling i took you bait assuming you were part of an adult discussion.

How many "upper class" neighborhoods have you ever seen that were predominantly black?   Just curious.  Also, I have no doubt that many of the upper class neighborhoods around Chicago are stacked to the ceilings with criminals, but they're more likely to be skimming off my tax dollars with TIF or raiding their company's pensions than selling dime bags of pot.

Do you comprehend that there are levels between "poor, possession-less criminals" and "upper class"? When you drive through an area with young families and smaller homes, do you generally think "these people must steal from the upper class somewhere else"?  What about if those young families and smaller homes are filled with black or hispanic people?


not playing your game, you know what you implied and i stand by my statement.  find someone else to play your childish "what about, what if" games
 
2014-05-25 01:53:41 PM

Elegy: In this map, the south is the southern portions of tidewater, greater Appalachia,as well as the Deep South, and New France - what is more commonly called "Dixie"


Gah, made the list and moved on, forgetting to go back and qualify it.
Fixed for accuracy.
 
2014-05-25 01:54:02 PM
Somebody a while back asked for a black Farker to comment, well, here's one speaking now. Warning, this is gonna be a tl;dr for those not inclined to give a fark.

- For those of you guys saying, "well my parents were German/Irish/Italian/(insert your white ethnicity here) came in 19dickity5, blah blah blah", well this is about the ONLY time you guys ever seem to acknowledge your ancestry. The rest of the time, you're go about your lives as "Generic White Person". It's very rare for black people to pinpoint a specific country where our ancestors came from - we're lucky to go back to 1820 at best, and even then, it's a story like "Massa beat me three times today. Worked 18 hours picking cotton." I remember I was sitting at a bar with a group of white people telling stories of how their families ended up here, the whole Ellis Island bit, and then I said "Well, (unfortunately) our boat ride was free." It got a laugh, but the point remained - your ancestors had a choice in the manner of coming here, for good or bad, mine didn't.

- I'd probably have a little more sympathy for poor white people from the sticks if they didn't kiss the asses of their corporate relatives and impoverishing our and their communities. I live in GA now, but hail from MO.  You got poor whites in GA blaming their lot in life on blacks from ATL, Mexicans taking their jobs, all the while voting for those same idiots stripping the inner cities of chances for good education, jobs, infrastructure, what have you, on a basis of "they're giving them darkies free shiat and taking OUR tax money", despite the fact that 1) how in the hell are you going to take taxes from someone making $30K/yr, and 2) Just who in the hell is going around telling black voters "I'm going to make them crackers pay us reparations, starting with each whitey giving us 75% of his income, effective immediately?" Kingston's followers talk this crap up about how poor (and let's be honest, they're thinking black) kids need to learn how to pay for their school lunches and take on extra work and scrub floors or whatever. Well let me tell you, there's PLENTY of poor whites in NE GA that would have their kids on the same plan, income alone, but they'll vote him in because he's sticking it to the blacks, and that's all that matters to them. Of course their schools will still be crappy, their kids will have poor health care, their salaries will still be poverty level, but as long they get to put a Confederate flag sticker on their beat up car, participate in Civil War reenactments, and whine about not saying the N-word, they'll gladly throw themselves in the woodchipper as long as a black guy got thrown in before him.  Same shiat in Missouri - whites will moan about STL and KC being littered with thugs, and I'm not saying either is no picnic myself, but they'll overlook the meth distributors in the Ozarks and the Bootheel, because that would mean they'd be criticizing their fellow white compatriots, and that's some introspection that isn't to pretty to look at.

- Instead of whining about having to pay black people $50,000 each year out of your salary, it would be a lot easier to set things up so that the next generation could have it easier.  I mean really, I get tired of people whining about affirmative action being the reason why they aren't at a certain job. Really, the interviewiers flat out told you, "Well, because you're a white guy, we had to give the job to a black woman this time around. Thank you for your interest, though." Do employers tell the people they didn't hire who got the job who got it instead? Who's to say that they didn't give it to another white guy? And even if they did, that increase of black employees from 2% to 4% is supposed to mean you're going to eat dog food for the rest of your life? I hear this crap about college admissions all the time, "I would've gone to Harvard if it wasn't for AA!" Funny, I don't hear that argument when it comes to the child of a rich donor, a veteran, or anyone else who got a hand up? I applied for about 50 or so jobs in 2009 before getting my current one. I could've said "these white people aren't going to hire me period, so why bother." Did some of them throw my resume in the trash? Maybe. Can I prove it? No. But I'm not going to the white guy or girl they hired and telling them "You only got that job because you're white!"

Bottom line, I'm no SJW or a vengeful black militant on a mission to make you ofays pay or whatever, but I cannot stand perpetual whiners getting pissy over things that in the grand scheme of things wouldn't hurt them at all. Does providing blacks with more opportunities to participate in voting mean that white people can't vote for 100 years? Does funding an inner city library mean that whites will stuck reading cheap romance novels for life? Does having a black president mean we're going to repeal the 13th Amendment and enslave whitey for 400 years?
 
2014-05-25 01:56:56 PM

lilplatinum: Because they have far more metropolitan areas where the problems of the black community are generally concentrated.  The deep south has only Atlanta in the top 20 metropolitan areas.  So adjusting for "the south" is essentially just adjusting for Atlanta vs. every other metropolitan area.


So you're telling me the incarceration rate in the north is greater because poor blacks in the cities are disproportionately concentrated into poor urban ghettos, and that economic disparity gives rise to more crime in the black communities?

Thanks, you just confirmed my point that life for blacks in the north is marked by a higher degree of segregation and systematic inequality than in the south.
 
2014-05-25 02:00:42 PM

gaspode: What the fark is with all the blatant, desperate and above all LATE trolls in this one?


Well you know. Black people really do make some privileged white people mad. As evidenced.
 
2014-05-25 02:03:03 PM

Elegy: So you're telling me the incarceration rate in the north is greater because poor blacks in the cities are disproportionately concentrated into poor urban ghettos, and that economic disparity gives rise to more crime in the black communities?

Thanks, you just confirmed my point that life for blacks in the north is marked by a higher degree of segregation and systematic inequality than in the south.


This has little to do with north and south and everything to do with densely populated urban areas - which the south lacks not because they are more racially progressive, but because the dirt farming pissant states generally lack the amount of urbanization of the north.   dense population = more ghettos = more concentration of the drug trade = more incarceration in those communities, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to know that.

Coming from the South before escaping to civilization, however, makes one realize that the amount of blatant open racism against blacks is espoused by hillbillies.  The amount of casual racism growing up in Georgia and Texas was astounding.
 
2014-05-25 02:03:13 PM

Elegy: Of course, people like you tell us this is a "crown of shiat" because you look down on southerners, but people like you have always existed - ignorant and unaware of reality because of your own regional prejudices.


Regional prejudices.  Interesting.  Let me explain how I know your projector is running.  I was born on the res.  Racial tensions were rough, compared to the most broke in the south, we were destitute.  We moved east to ND, dad found work in the best school system in the nation.  We were still broke, but well educated through grade school.  I still didn't think much of race, why would I?  We were all broke so there was no "us and them".  Then dad decided to go back to work for the government.  I made Omaha my home for a bit, then the redneck Riviera, then DODDs schools in Europe.  The only time in my developing life I was in the majority was in ND and Omaha.  So what regional prejudices can I possibly have?  I have an attachment to the north, I have an attachment to the south, I see Europe as my back yard.  They all have their problems and their successes.

I don't look down on Southerners.  I see the problems you are facing, and see the work ahead of you.  There's a lot.  I have extreme empathy for the situation.  But criticizing other societies isn't going to solve any problems.  Where I went to grade school, you have 10x the likelihood of going from poverty to the top quintile of the nation as you do anywhere in the south.  I made damned good on this promise.  Ignorant of race, why is that?  What can you learn from this?
 
2014-05-25 02:03:21 PM

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: I feel so guilty, let me get a check for Jay Z.

[img.fark.net image 196x257]

Son,it's about time you learn about white privilege.
[img.fark.net image 225x225]


Wow looks like someone's mad about black people again.
 
2014-05-25 02:03:53 PM

firefly212: As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.


News Flash!

Some people are Black and Gay.
 
2014-05-25 02:05:57 PM

lilplatinum: legy: Would you like to explain to me why the northern states incarcerate blacks at a ratio of 13:1 against whites?

Because they have far more metropolitan areas where the problems of the black community are generally concentrated.  The deep south has only Atlanta in the top 20 metropolitan areas.  So adjusting for "the south" is essentially just adjusting for Atlanta vs. every other metropolitan area.

Elegy: "Thus the north is better - because I feel it to be true based upon my own prejudices and feelings"

The north is better because its not filled with baptists.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEgCp6qqxik
 
2014-05-25 02:07:55 PM

JAGChem82: Bottom line, I'm no SJW or a vengeful black militant on a mission to make you ofays pay or whatever, but I cannot stand perpetual whiners getting pissy over things that in the grand scheme of things wouldn't hurt them at all. Does providing blacks with more opportunities to participate in voting mean that white people can't vote for 100 years? Does funding an inner city library mean that whites will stuck reading cheap romance novels for life? Does having a black president mean we're going to repeal the 13th Amendment and enslave whitey for 400 years?


See, this is pretty much the right take-away from the article and the discussion. Dealing with the effects of the past doesn't have to be some destructive conflict, the correct way to go about it involves improving opportunities, which will benefit pretty much everyone.
 
2014-05-25 02:19:08 PM
News flash: Your ancestors probably did terrible things too.
 
2014-05-25 02:19:44 PM

JAGChem82: Of course their schools will still be crappy, their kids will have poor health care, their salaries will still be poverty level, but as long they get to put a Confederate flag sticker on their beat up car, participate in Civil War reenactments, and whine about not saying the N-word, they'll gladly throw themselves in the woodchipper as long as a black guy got thrown in before him.


And THIS^^^ is why so many of them vote for republicans, and against their own best interests. Even though the R's are screwing them as deeply as they screw the blacks, as long as they get to hear the anguished cry of their "enemy" as it goes in, they will endure their own buttfarking with joy.

They are just too blind to see it.
 
2014-05-25 02:21:27 PM
what happens when a black person stabs a black person 10 times?
 
2014-05-25 02:24:33 PM

stonelotus: what happens when a black person stabs a black person 10 times?


It creates a rip in the time-space continuum.
 
2014-05-25 02:26:14 PM

Waldo Pepper: not playing your game, you know what you implied and i stand by my statement.  find someone else to play your childish "what about, what if" games


Still pathetically trolling this thread, I see.
 
2014-05-25 02:27:41 PM

Need_MindBleach: News flash: Your ancestors probably did terrible things too.


Newsflash: White people say things to downplay centuries of racism in the US.
 
2014-05-25 02:30:40 PM

whidbey: Waldo Pepper: not playing your game, you know what you implied and i stand by my statement.  find someone else to play your childish "what about, what if" games

Still pathetically trolling this thread, I see.


Your last 4 comments have been clearly trolling so this is ironic. Why should Waldo argue with someone who's only move is to make up Straw Man arguments
 
2014-05-25 02:31:40 PM

trevzie: whidbey: Waldo Pepper: not playing your game, you know what you implied and i stand by my statement.  find someone else to play your childish "what about, what if" games

Still pathetically trolling this thread, I see.

Your last 4 comments have been clearly trolling so this is ironic. Why should Waldo argue with someone who's only move is to make up Straw Man arguments


Maybe you two should have coffee or something.
 
2014-05-25 02:32:42 PM

Without Fail: firefly212: As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.

News Flash!

Some people are Black and Gay.


News Flash! What the author is asking for is treatment of an entire people, not just on the individual level, but as a whole. This is a dumb thing to ask for, regardless of context... if you don't want to be stereotyped, asking people to treat you as a group is silly.

On an individual basis, everyone gets (from me) the amount of respect they earn... you start out at stranger levels, low, but there... and you either get more by earning it, or less by being a dickbag. I'm not gonna treat anyone poorly on the basis of just race... but I'm not also gonna be extra nice based simply on race.
 
2014-05-25 02:32:48 PM

Freudian_slipknot: Once again, anyone pretending that racism is even remotely dead in this country is a farking nutbag.


John McWhorter (a black man) says that racism (now) is fundamentally different from racism (1960), and not very many people have taken that into account. I read that book a few years ago, and I wonder what McWhorter and Ta-Nehisi Coates would have to say to each other. Anyway, I read TFA. Didn't know about buying a house "on contract"; that's pretty terrible.

I have no idea how to fix the problems though. Another book about racism I read a while back advocated holding a constitutional convention, throwing out all the laws, and writing new ones that are designed from the get-go to avoid racism. (This will never happen; I think the author knew this too but was way out in loony-land.) So: if they do a study, as Coates wants, what will eventually get done? I don't think much will change, because making the poorest people less desperate will probably cost the richest and most powerful people a few percent of their money and power....
 
2014-05-25 02:34:26 PM

danceswithcrows: I have no idea how to fix the problems though.


1. End corporatism
2. End the class system
 
2014-05-25 02:36:10 PM

whidbey: danceswithcrows: I have no idea how to fix the problems though.

1. End corporatism
2. End the class system


Easy way to do that.  A draconian inheritance tax.
 
2014-05-25 02:38:39 PM

Elegy: And when those black communities are trapped in the urban ghettos because they are priced out of the suburban and rural real estate market - that is the very definition of "institutionalize racism." See TFA, which spends a large amount of time on the entrapment of poor blacks in urban ghettos, with no opportunity and no chance to move,


Um, worse happens on Ft. Peck and Wounded Knee.  We've done a hell of a lot better job of fixing these issues than the south has, but we've still got quite a ways to go.  400% better income mobility.  Think about that for a minute.

The rest of your argument kinda devolves from here.  It might be time to stop being proud and start being productive.
 
2014-05-25 02:39:54 PM

rewind2846: JAGChem82: Of course their schools will still be crappy, their kids will have poor health care, their salaries will still be poverty level, but as long they get to put a Confederate flag sticker on their beat up car, participate in Civil War reenactments, and whine about not saying the N-word, they'll gladly throw themselves in the woodchipper as long as a black guy got thrown in before him.

And THIS^^^ is why so many of them vote for republicans, and against their own best interests. Even though the R's are screwing them as deeply as they screw the blacks, as long as they get to hear the anguished cry of their "enemy" as it goes in, they will endure their own buttfarking with joy.

They are just too blind to see it.


Racism has always been a great tool for obscuring the fact that lower class blacks and lower class whites have more in common with each other than the upperclass.

This is not unique to the south, and if you think it is, might I suggest you have a look at some of these great deals on Martian real estate that I have going on right now?
 
2014-05-25 02:43:41 PM

Elegy: And when those black communities are trapped in the urban ghettos because they are priced out of the suburban and rural real estate market - that is the very definition of "institutionalize racism." See TFA, which spends a large amount of time on the entrapment of poor blacks in urban ghettos, with no opportunity and no chance to move,


This is an urban problem and is suffered by poor whites, hispanics, and asians in these areas.   There is certainly no shortage of racism in the North, but these problems are of an urban nature, and certainly should be addressed.  But it doesn't make the North more racist, as it isn't.  It does make the socioeconomic problems of minorities in urban environments more showing as there are more actual cities there rather than dirt farming peasant hovels.

(Hillbillies, btw, makes little damn sense because "hillbillies" is someone from "the hills," an you seem to indicate that you are talking not about poor white Appalachians, but poor white lowland southerners)

Shockingly, words tend to evolve past their original meanings.  Hillbilly is used to mean country folk in general.  Much like when racist rednecks in Florida talk about the justice of a thug in a hoodie being shot, they are not referring to a member of the Thugee cult.
 
2014-05-25 02:48:00 PM
The case against reparations:

"White people were in charge of black ___ and then ___."

...keep filling in the blanks over and over until you notice a pattern.

/this is where somebody calls me a dumb cracker
//and someone else complains about "white guilt"
///and someone else decides I'm a whiny black guy
////but you know I'm right
 
2014-05-25 02:49:34 PM

lilplatinum: But it doesn't make the North more racist, as it isn't.


He (or she) says emphatically, with nothing but feelings to back it up.

"I feel it so it must be true."  You vote conservative republican? Because that sounds very conservative and republican.
 
2014-05-25 02:49:54 PM

JAGChem82: Does providing blacks with more opportunities to participate in voting mean that white people can't vote for 100 years?


it means more competition, which is obviously bad

see also: 'buy american', another mantra that pushes xenophobia over merit
 
2014-05-25 02:52:26 PM

Elegy: rewind2846: JAGChem82: Of course their schools will still be crappy, their kids will have poor health care, their salaries will still be poverty level, but as long they get to put a Confederate flag sticker on their beat up car, participate in Civil War reenactments, and whine about not saying the N-word, they'll gladly throw themselves in the woodchipper as long as a black guy got thrown in before him.

And THIS^^^ is why so many of them vote for republicans, and against their own best interests. Even though the R's are screwing them as deeply as they screw the blacks, as long as they get to hear the anguished cry of their "enemy" as it goes in, they will endure their own buttfarking with joy.

They are just too blind to see it.

Racism has always been a great tool for obscuring the fact that lower class blacks and lower class whites have more in common with each other than the upperclass.

This is not unique to the south, and if you think it is, might I suggest you have a look at some of these great deals on Martian real estate that I have going on right now?


Exactly, now why spend so much time on the subject of race and rejecting superior societies?
 
2014-05-25 02:58:01 PM
OK, fair enough. If that applies, then I also think that a bill for freeing the slaves should also be prepared as well as lost wages for anyone killed in the war and time served, adjusted for inflation of course, and the descendents should be liable for that too.
 
2014-05-25 03:05:08 PM

starsrift: Darkridr: starsrift: letrole: Now, I'd continue this further, but there's no point in prolonging the idiocy. I'll give you the short version. Whites are soon to be outnumbered anyway, and no way are Mexicans going to be willing to pay for this shiat.

... I don't think I've agreed with letrole before, but hell, that's a damn good point.

As an aside... Mexican is a nationality not a race. In a country where you are born to citizenry, why are a large swath of the population still being referred to by the nationality of their ancestors? I will also mention the curious case of places like Arizona where the government that has been there for 150 or so years wants to be able to demand citizenship papers at will based on racial characteristics of people who may have been there for several hundred years.

Because it's a country of immigrants. Same goes for Pakistanis, Indians, Germans, etc etc.


Nah... Pakistani, Indians, and anyone else brown enough become arabs, and Germans are just Americans unless they have heavy accents and oompah music on the boom box.
 
2014-05-25 03:07:34 PM
Well, after that just happened, I'm out. Got a little too involved with people who can't post facts or figures to back up their claims and needed a slap to bring me back to reality.

I hope everyone has a beautiful holiday weekend - it's time to go enjoy mine.
 
2014-05-25 03:10:30 PM
I'm surprised that I'm surprised by all the "black people getting free checks for slavery, durr" posts this article generated, but I am. As many others have pointed out, that's pretty far from the (what I see as the intended) thrust of the piece.

It's pretty undeniable that the United States were largely built, if not on white supremacy, at least by white supremacists to a very large degree. That many of our current social and economic conditions were birthed by and, until relatively recently, formed and nurtured by such attitudes. That's what half the article is about, not slavery, but the continued anti-black measures found all over the country, for decades and decades, that rather incontrovertibly must have some responsibility for some current situations.

These measures used to be considered a generally good thing by most European Americans, including those of us whose families came here well after slavery, those of us whose families fought to end slavery, and those of us whose families were slaves themselves in the past. The majority of us thought Africans were inferior, or, at best, sufficiently undesirable to make these practices worth the moral cost, if any such cost were perceived in the first place.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that every single one of us now agree that an entire group of people shouldn't be dicked over like that (obviously not the case, but assuming), it doesn't change what already happened. The effects are still ongoing. If we're going to all agree that, yes, institutional racism is undesirable, don't we have to admit that our now-undesirable practices had real consequences, and perhaps assess how they can be corrected to whatever degree is feasible?

That's really all the piece seems to be saying, to me.

At absolutely no level is it as simple as "ok, white people get a special tax so we can cut checks to black people." It is not saying "ok, you, white person, are guilty of a crime someone who looks like you committed in the past." We all pay taxes. We all live under the same federal government. Any "reparation" would be in the form of our shared government attempting to correct the consequences of itself, essentially, through the refocusing of attention and resources.

No one is talking about the son of a European immigrant being penalised so the great-grandson of a slave can get a check. It's more like the same government the immigrant and the slave-descendant live under turning some of its influence towards hopefully ameliorating some issues that negatively affect the society both live in.

The point of "I didn't do it, my family wasn't even here" is correct to a degree, but so is the counterpoint of "welcome to America, Mr. Lopez, as a new American, you're going to have to understand that some of your tax dollars might go towards problems that existed before you got here."

Helping poor people helps all of us. If our shared government can spend billions on wars many of us don't support, surely they can spend something on helping people, even if you personally don't care. None of us are guilty of the sins of our fathers, and we're certainly not guilty of something done by someone who simply looked like us, but the crimes committed against our fathers and people who look like us can still have an effect on us today.

My family came here in the twentieth century. We had no part in your slavery, civil war or direct involvement in marginalising black people, but like almost everyone else who comes here, the indirect benefits to be had thereby are ours as Americans. I can't help but notice that, having achieved such success as a country, there is some latitude...economically and socially...to correct mistakes of the past to some degree.

I don't particularly like black people, and "white guilt" is a bizarre concept, but a bum deal is a bum deal, and this particular bum deal hurts more people than just African Americans. If any part of that deal can be improved, it can only help us as a society, because they're not going anywhere. It isn't even a racial thing, to a large degree...I would make the same argument toward a future generation of predominantly-mestizo Americans of recent vintage:

"You weren't involved, but you inherited the benefits. We should use some of those benefits to correct some of the remaining detriments."

That's all.

Having said all of that, though, I can't help but note that what you allow to be done to others can eventually be done to you, and "When enslaved Africans, plundered of their bodies, plundered of their families, and plundered of their labor, were brought to the colony of Virginia in 1619, they did not initially endure the naked racism that would engulf their progeny. Some of them were freed. Some of them intermarried. Still others escaped with the white indentured servants who had suffered as they had. Some even rebelled together, allying under Nathaniel Bacon to torch Jamestown in 1676." seems like a far more likely end to our current issues, but I can't decide whether that's optimism that we'll band together against a common enemy or pessimism that it will take all of us being shiat on a lot more before we realise that, again, what we allow to be done to others may eventually be done to all of us.
 
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