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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 871
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11217 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-25 11:12:55 AM  
Bookmarked the article a couple of days ago and sat down and read it this morning. Thank you submitter. And thank you whomever decided to greenlight it after all.
 
2014-05-25 11:17:15 AM  

SmackLT: I'll admit that I didn't bother reading the article, but I think I can sum it up based on the Fark headline, and this is my opinion on it.

The article writer is clearly an idiot. If he had been paying attention at all, he'd know that the Miami Heat relies on an aggressive defense that begins upcourt, choking the lanes with a zone defense to block the inbound pass outside the three-point line, sometimes before the ball has even made it to half-court. Lebron will take the top man most of the time, looking to make a steal or just keep the ball out of the hands of Paul George. WIth fast rotation into a double-team, Pacers can't rely on that pick-and-roll that they used so effectively in the second half of the series against Atlanta. They need to anticipate the second man coverage and rotate their guards to open up passing lanes or penetrate on the dribble. It's risky to run the lane on Bosh, but he has a higher rate of fouling big men, which Indiana can exploit if they're patient.


That's actually much closer than many people came to understanding TFA without reading it.
 
2014-05-25 11:17:34 AM  
How to end this reparations circle jerk once and for all and make both sides happy:


Pay every living ex-slave $1,000,000,000,000.   Done.
 
2014-05-25 11:18:47 AM  

CanisNoir: DrD'isInfotainment: stlbluez: "I KNOW SLAVERY because "  narrative

I call bullshiat! I'm making no such assertion. Only that my understanding springs from something I know about in  one line of my family.They came in 1634. I have another relative who was on the Mayflower, but THAT isn't the point. I also have Mexican andecedents,ScotchIrish Canadian, Dutch, belgian and others.My point is that the one who came to Sudbury Mass in 1634 had to work for 12 years to earn his freedom and the right to own land, and that it has remained part of the family lore ever since, so a reasonable person could imagine that a Black American might have so much of a burden of the Past on their Present, that it might color their perspective in ways that obstruct their progress in this country. So some meaningful gesture could be made by AMERICA to assuage some of their deep sense of legitimate grievance.

This is what I don't get. America constantly makes grand gestures; the countries history with slavery isn't a secret.
Assist the poor because the poor need assistance, not because disproportionatly it'll help blacks.
Young blacks have a self imposed image problem the same as poor urban whites.
The solutions are varied and begin with education and a different focus on what's "cool" for young urban adults. A focus on race only clouds the issue and hampers solutions.


Fair enough, but If I were a Black man or a Native Indian, I'd still have a phantom looming over my experience in this country. And I'm not sure it would all be resolved to an acceptable extent by your omnibus solution, but maybe it would be comprehensive enough for that to happen, in which case, good!
 
2014-05-25 11:19:34 AM  
I heard an interview with Coates Friday about this article.  And certainly, the "let's take a look at the whole broad spectrum of exploitation/oppression of African Americans" approach is a new spin, but here's some things that complicate it, for me at least:

1) Exploitation/Oppression is not limited to African-Americans - "the system" has also benefited from playing dirty tricks on women, jews, and a variety of other groups.
2) More importantly, the *real* exploitation/oppression comes in the form of class-based shenanigans - racism is a red herring.
3) Consequently, if we follow Coates's line of thinking, we'd need to "make reparations" (in whatever form that may be) to pretty much everyone in this country who doesn't belong to a currently wealthy family that has belonged to such a family since... oh, I don't know, we'd probably say 100 years back, at least.
4) How do Federal Anti-Poverty Spending, Affirmative Action, the economic damage/death toll of the Civil War, etc. get factored into Coates proposed study?  Logically, it seems that we should deduct the value (however it is determined) of these from the "damages" (however those are determined).
5) I seem to recall reading some study or another about the favorable success rates of recent African immigrants vs. African Americans in matters of economics/education.  That item, at the very least, should make us ask to what extent the barriers our system imposes on black Americans are related strictly to race.
 
2014-05-25 11:23:07 AM  

Waldo Pepper: lilplatinum: Waldo Pepper: I lived in a neighborhood like that and it had its problems but what a lot of "yuppies"  don't understand is sure we might live around some criminal element but we got nothing to steal and your "yuppie" neighborhoods are where all the good stuff is to take. heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.

I always marvel when my redneck relatives ask how I can live somewhere as dangerous as Brooklyn, when statistically their little shiatholes have more crime per capita.

I will say that small towns aren't quite the same situation. The nicer neighborhoods don't get the crime as the police have an easier time spotting those who don't belong in the area since they tend to know everyone. Drugs are bad in small poor towns. There ain't jack squat to do and having to drive 60 miles to go bowling or to a movie kind of sucks. So the youth mainly poor youth get caught up in meth (billboards about the dangers of meth run year round in this area. so does billboards about the illegal ivory trade for some reason).


They use ivory for meth pipes
 
2014-05-25 11:29:05 AM  

DrD'isInfotainment: CanisNoir: DrD'isInfotainment: stlbluez: "I KNOW SLAVERY because "  narrative

I call bullshiat! I'm making no such assertion. Only that my understanding springs from something I know about in  one line of my family.They came in 1634. I have another relative who was on the Mayflower, but THAT isn't the point. I also have Mexican andecedents,ScotchIrish Canadian, Dutch, belgian and others.My point is that the one who came to Sudbury Mass in 1634 had to work for 12 years to earn his freedom and the right to own land, and that it has remained part of the family lore ever since, so a reasonable person could imagine that a Black American might have so much of a burden of the Past on their Present, that it might color their perspective in ways that obstruct their progress in this country. So some meaningful gesture could be made by AMERICA to assuage some of their deep sense of legitimate grievance.

This is what I don't get. America constantly makes grand gestures; the countries history with slavery isn't a secret.
Assist the poor because the poor need assistance, not because disproportionatly it'll help blacks.
Young blacks have a self imposed image problem the same as poor urban whites.
The solutions are varied and begin with education and a different focus on what's "cool" for young urban adults. A focus on race only clouds the issue and hampers solutions.

Fair enough, but If I were a Black man or a Native Indian, I'd still have a phantom looming over my experience in this country. And I'm not sure it would all be resolved to an acceptable extent by your omnibus solution, but maybe it would be comprehensive enough for that to happen, in which case, good!


Hmm, I'm married to a Native American, I work with a lot of Native Indians (there's a difference, look for a feather or a dot, it helps).  I'm 3rd generation American of Norwegian heritage, about as white as you can get.  My wife's grandmother, who I spent some time with and loved dearly, went to one of those abhorrent "assimilation schools" you hear about once in a while out here in the west.  She felt no resentment toward me, and I no guilt toward her.  We loved each other dearly.

Meanwhile, my wife sees no need for reparations either.  We all come from a family.  Those families have histories.  Those sins and successes are theirs, not ours.  What we do with our lives is ours.  If that weren't the case, my family would be in a real mess.  Vikings and Blackfoot knew a thing or two about slaving.  It made the south look like summer camp.
 
2014-05-25 11:30:46 AM  
So the Africans who captured the slaves should pay reparations I guess...

And the descendant of freed slaves who owned slaves should pay too.

Barak Obama should pay too since he's 1/2 white

Since my ancestors fought and died to free the slaves my kids should receive reparations from the ancestors of those who were freed.

If this all sounds silly, it's because the whole reparations idea is silly. It's time to move on.
 
2014-05-25 11:31:01 AM  

TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.


If I were a White American, I'd be somewhat embarrassed that someone just like me could be this farking ignorant.
 
2014-05-25 11:33:59 AM  

Truther: What happened to black people in the United States in the past was terrible.

But that was in the PAST. Black people today don't have to deal with the things their older relatives and ancestors had to.

Anyone who says otherwise is either blinded by white guilt or benefits from the idea that terrible racism still exists.

I will happily pay reparations to any black person I have treated differently because of the color of their skin.

/that would be no one


Did not RTFA...  Goes to show, you can provide information to the public, but you can't make them read it.
 
2014-05-25 11:35:40 AM  

Brosephus: TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.

If I were a White American, I'd be somewhat embarrassed that someone just like me could be this farking ignorant.



You obviously don't understand the extreme distribution of IQ among white males.  Of any group on the planet, it is the most extreme.
 
2014-05-25 11:37:09 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Mid_mo_mad_man: Waldo Pepper: lilplatinum: Waldo Pepper: I lived in a neighborhood like that and it had its problems but what a lot of "yuppies"  don't understand is sure we might live around some criminal element but we got nothing to steal and your "yuppie" neighborhoods are where all the good stuff is to take. heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.

I always marvel when my redneck relatives ask how I can live somewhere as dangerous as Brooklyn, when statistically their little shiatholes have more crime per capita.

I will say that small towns aren't quite the same situation. The nicer neighborhoods don't get the crime as the police have an easier time spotting those who don't belong in the area since they tend to know everyone. Drugs are bad in small poor towns. There ain't jack squat to do and having to drive 60 miles to go bowling or to a movie kind of sucks. So the youth mainly poor youth get caught up in meth (billboards about the dangers of meth run year round in this area. so does billboards about the illegal ivory trade for some reason).

They use ivory for meth pipes

seems a bit high priced for a meth pipe 

example of billboard.


Do you have rich Chinese in your city?
 
2014-05-25 11:39:51 AM  

DubtodaIll: Yeah, money heals all wounds.


I couldn't finish the article right now but I don't think the idea was merely giving money to African Americans.

Personally, I believe there should be reperations. And they should come in the form of programs which improve land value, improve educational opportunities, and decrease the criminalization of African Americans.

For instance, and I know correlation doesn't prove causation, but programs which cleaned up, literally cleaned, by taking litter off the streets resulted in less crime in those areas. So lets spend money and clean up all of America's neighborhoods. White or black, rich or poor. Lets spend money putting art installations, and things to do in a more evenly distributed manner, ridding our nation of food ghettos, making sure charter schools don't take money from public education and then claim they're better because they've never dealt with a problematic child before (leaving underfunded public schools dealing with the children from the "worst" areas woefully unprepared). Lets fund day cares for working parents, repair and tear down dilapidated buildings. Put in more parks. Rebuild infrastructure and public transportation making it easier for people to get to jobs. Put in place a strong safety net so people can't fall through the cracks and can risk failure in an attempt to acheive success. Community programs, and music. Lets make our poorest neighborhoods so desirable that hipsters and whites and asians and rich folk want to live there. All of these things are easily doable with a bit of creativity. I'm also for raising the minimum wage, and it wouldn't take much to convince me a mandatory minimum income per person was a bad idea regardless of income. Also decriminalize drugs to mitigate the horribly racist effects of the ineffectual drug war. Treat drug abuse as a health problem. Provide single payer and universal health care. Most of these things create jobs which ends up leading to healthier communities with inhabitants who can spend more money thus supporting more local shops and commerce. It's a cycle of good.

I don't think handing a check to every African American would produce any longstanding change at all.
 
2014-05-25 11:46:01 AM  

trevzie: Trail of Dead: vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.

We can't have a rational discussion about these things without white people threatening to burn everything to the ground. It's a lost cause, like the global warming debate and the income inequality debate. Otherwise decent, rational whites lose their shiat when these topics come up. I have zero faith in things getting better for black people in America in this century. One day, white America won't hold the absolute power it does now - that's the only hope. So farking glad I don't have kids growing up in this poisonous atmosphere.

I think the victim complex is why things aren't getting better for black people. They feel like they can't succeed because they are opressed and it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy because they don't try. The key to getting a good job is getting into a good college, and black people have it pretty easy when it comes to getting accepted into a good college. The system is actually stacked in their favor right now. Granted it's harder to get a good GPA in high school with poverty and a broken home life. But really, it's high school, it's not that hard.


Thanks for proving my point.
 
2014-05-25 11:47:07 AM  

DrD'isInfotainment: CanisNoir: DrD'isInfotainment: stlbluez: "I KNOW SLAVERY because "  narrative

I call bullshiat! I'm making no such assertion. Only that my understanding springs from something I know about in  one line of my family.They came in 1634. I have another relative who was on the Mayflower, but THAT isn't the point. I also have Mexican andecedents,ScotchIrish Canadian, Dutch, belgian and others.My point is that the one who came to Sudbury Mass in 1634 had to work for 12 years to earn his freedom and the right to own land, and that it has remained part of the family lore ever since, so a reasonable person could imagine that a Black American might have so much of a burden of the Past on their Present, that it might color their perspective in ways that obstruct their progress in this country. So some meaningful gesture could be made by AMERICA to assuage some of their deep sense of legitimate grievance.

This is what I don't get. America constantly makes grand gestures; the countries history with slavery isn't a secret.
Assist the poor because the poor need assistance, not because disproportionatly it'll help blacks.
Young blacks have a self imposed image problem the same as poor urban whites.
The solutions are varied and begin with education and a different focus on what's "cool" for young urban adults. A focus on race only clouds the issue and hampers solutions.

Fair enough, but If I were a Black man or a Native Indian, I'd still have a phantom looming over my experience in this country. And I'm not sure it would all be resolved to an acceptable extent by your omnibus solution, but maybe it would be comprehensive enough for that to happen, in which case, good!


Of course there is still a factor, and will be for a generation or so, provided the focus changes.
Slavery and oppression are symptomatic of the human experience, there isn't a person alive that doesn't have slave blood in them because every civilization in human history has had a form of slavery.
The goal should no longer be about a "recognition" or apology because that's a done deal.
The problems are economic and cultural and if we attack them on those levels vs a racial issue, we'll have better effects all around.
 
2014-05-25 11:50:18 AM  
This is all very well and good, and the Deep South takes a hard rap (as it should) for its decades of institutional racism. It's nice to see that Chicago and other northern cities were harshly criticized for their role in the creation of the urban ghettos - a nice change of pace from your typical "this is all the south's fault" mentality that pervades these discussions. This was an excellent article that provided me (personally) with relatively little new info, but I bookmarked it because it is rare to find this all in one place.

Of course, the author was focused on history, and largely ignored that the most rapidly integrating cities with the most upwardly mobile black populations are in the south; that most majority black cities in the south these days are run by black mayors and policed by majority black police forces; and that the worst segregation and institutional discrimination now goes on in the north, rather than the south. The worst racist and worst examples of racism are all in the north, something Farkers do not seem to understand - under constant pressure, both social and Federal, the south is becoming more egalitarian shockingly fast, while the north lags behind and compensates by living in the 60's and blaming the south for all racism.

As for reparations? It's a difficult issue. I have no problem with the general idea, but I would need to see specific policy implementations before I took a position. Some of those suggested in TFA seemed workable and just, but the devil is always in the details when it comes to legislation.
 
2014-05-25 11:51:15 AM  

Brosephus: TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.

If I were a White American, I'd be somewhat embarrassed that someone just like me could be this farking ignorant.


"Just like me". These people aren't just like me at all.
 
2014-05-25 11:51:32 AM  

svanmeter: If this all sounds silly, it's because the whole reparations idea is silly. It's time to move on. I didn't RTFA and have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm like a child that walked into the middle of a movie theater

 
2014-05-25 11:51:52 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: cameroncrazy1984: Mid_mo_mad_man: There's a lot of white guilt in this thread.

Nah, just from you.

I feel no guilt. I probably should thou. My ancestors did benefit from slavery. They were part of the slave owning minority in Missouri.


What a shock.
 
2014-05-25 11:55:14 AM  
Every person, woman or man, is born with the same abilities, the same personality, the same capacity for good, and an IQ of 160. During their childhood, some combination of  their own personal choices and the culture they are raised in changes them into good or bad, clever or smart, criminal or upstanding citizen. There is no cultural or scientific doubt about this. It does not need discussing because only bad people question this truth.

Let us erase the crimes of the past. Let us equalize wealth, opportunity, access to education, healthcare and work. Let us live in a society where all men treat each other with respect and dignity regardless of age, skin color, gender, or heritage.

Because every person, woman or man, is born with the same abilities, the same personality, the  same capacity for good, and an IQ of 160, there is no question we will succeed.
 
2014-05-25 11:55:15 AM  

Elegy: rapidly integrating cities with the most upwardly mobile black populations are in the south; that most majority black cities in the south these days are run by black mayors and policed by majority black police forces


...and they still have the lowest economic mobility in the nation.

graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2014-05-25 11:57:15 AM  

js34603: I would be very concerned about that if I was stabbing any black people.


I'm having sex with a black woman.

Does that count?
 
2014-05-25 11:58:04 AM  

AngryDragon: js34603: I would be very concerned about that if I was stabbing any black people.

I'm having sex with a black woman.

Does that count?


Seems a bit rude to your partner to be posting on the internet while having sex.
 
2014-05-25 12:04:01 PM  
I can see the justice in reparations, but I don't see a way for reparations to happen, or how they would provide any lasting value.

Better to focus our efforts on poverty in general.  If we could address the funding issues for schools, that would go a long way in and of itself.  Funding should be determined by the number of students, not by how much the locals can afford to pay for property taxes.
 
2014-05-25 12:12:11 PM  

SomeAmerican: I can see the justice in reparations, but I don't see a way for reparations to happen, or how they would provide any lasting value.

Better to focus our efforts on poverty in general.  If we could address the funding issues for schools, that would go a long way in and of itself.  Funding should be determined by the number of students, not by how much the locals can afford to pay for property taxes.


It's more than funding.  Funding isn't even the largest issue.  If it were, why are outcomes so different in Williston ND vs. Washington DC when DC spends twice as much per pupil?
 
2014-05-25 12:12:28 PM  
Reading that is like listening to addict give all the details of why they drink.
 
2014-05-25 12:15:17 PM  

rohar: Brosephus: TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.

If I were a White American, I'd be somewhat embarrassed that someone just like me could be this farking ignorant.


You obviously don't understand the extreme distribution of IQ among white males.  Of any group on the planet, it is the most extreme.


I'd wager that the Brothers can run right alongside you.  When you can go from people with the inventiveness of GW Carver or Garrett Morgan all the way down to Pookie on'da Corner, we can hit damn near every number on the IQ RPM meter.
 
2014-05-25 12:16:06 PM  

rohar: Elegy: rapidly integrating cities with the most upwardly mobile black populations are in the south; that most majority black cities in the south these days are run by black mayors and policed by majority black police forces

...and they still have the lowest economic mobility in the nation.

[graphics8.nytimes.com image 650x344]


Which is arguably more indicative of the general lack of economic opportunity in the rural south than it is any institutional racism. You didn't include a breakdown of upward mobility by race, so it adds nothing to your argument.

Source for map please, I love this stuff.

A cursor glance at a map of segregation reveals that the majority of fifth quintile cities for the dissimilarity index are in the north:
i.imgur.com

I suggest you explore census scope For various northern and southern metropolitan areas.

For example, Atlanta beats the hell out of Detroit for exposure between blacks and whites (sharing stores, schools, etc):
Atlanta:
i.imgur.com
And Detroit:
i.imgur.com

The dissimilarity index is even more telling:
Atlanta:
i.imgur.com
Detroit:
i.imgur.com

The south is no panracial utopia by any means, but at present it is worlds better than most of the north; these patterns hold across the a comparison of most major metropolitan areas.

The north is being left behind in the search for racial socioeconomic equality, and all they can do is biatch about how racist the south is as they confine their black populations into increasingly hellish ghettos.

You don't even want to see the maps on incarceration rates by race by state. Or do you?
 
2014-05-25 12:16:31 PM  

Trail of Dead: Brosephus: TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.

If I were a White American, I'd be somewhat embarrassed that someone just like me could be this farking ignorant.

"Just like me". These people aren't just like me at all.


"Just like me" was probably a poor choice of words.  My bad.
 
2014-05-25 12:22:08 PM  

Trail of Dead: trevzie: Trail of Dead: vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.

We can't have a rational discussion about these things without white people threatening to burn everything to the ground. It's a lost cause, like the global warming debate and the income inequality debate. Otherwise decent, rational whites lose their shiat when these topics come up. I have zero faith in things getting better for black people in America in this century. One day, white America won't hold the absolute power it does now - that's the only hope. So farking glad I don't have kids growing up in this poisonous atmosphere.

I think the victim complex is why things aren't getting better for black people. They feel like they can't succeed because they are opressed and it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy because they don't try. The key to getting a good job is getting into a good college, and black people have it pretty easy when it comes to getting accepted into a good college. The system is actually stacked in their favor right now. Granted it's harder to get a good GPA in high school with poverty and a broken home life. But really, it's high school, it's not that hard.

Thanks for proving my point.


Good rebuttal. Ad hominem combined with a self proclaimed victory. I think I figured out why there can't be a rational discussion.
 
2014-05-25 12:23:55 PM  

Brosephus: rohar: Brosephus: TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.

If I were a White American, I'd be somewhat embarrassed that someone just like me could be this farking ignorant.


You obviously don't understand the extreme distribution of IQ among white males.  Of any group on the planet, it is the most extreme.

I'd wager that the Brothers can run right alongside you.  When you can go from people with the inventiveness of GW Carver or Garrett Morgan all the way down to Pookie on'da Corner, we can hit damn near every number on the IQ RPM meter.


On average, sure.  But then there's the science.  It turns out the variability is important here.  Most groups on the face of the planet have a fairly tight distribution of IQ.  This seems natural and normal.  Then there's white men.  What a random lot.

If we only compare white men to white women, the math is easily available.  At 1 standard deviation, and IQ of 130 we see two men for every woman.  Sadly, the same is true at 70.

Turns out there's a lot of variability on 2 factors.  Men are more variable than women.  White folk seem to be more variable than others.  I'd suggest it's likely this extends beyond IQ.

Maybe this is why it's hard to be racist against white men, they're so damned random they're hard to group.
 
2014-05-25 12:24:39 PM  

Waldo Pepper: Mid_mo_mad_man: Waldo Pepper: Mid_mo_mad_man: Waldo Pepper: lilplatinum: Waldo Pepper: I lived in a neighborhood like that and it had its problems but what a lot of "yuppies"  don't understand is sure we might live around some criminal element but we got nothing to steal and your "yuppie" neighborhoods are where all the good stuff is to take. heck it is best to keep life calm and quiet around where you live to keep the police away.

I always marvel when my redneck relatives ask how I can live somewhere as dangerous as Brooklyn, when statistically their little shiatholes have more crime per capita.

I will say that small towns aren't quite the same situation. The nicer neighborhoods don't get the crime as the police have an easier time spotting those who don't belong in the area since they tend to know everyone. Drugs are bad in small poor towns. There ain't jack squat to do and having to drive 60 miles to go bowling or to a movie kind of sucks. So the youth mainly poor youth get caught up in meth (billboards about the dangers of meth run year round in this area. so does billboards about the illegal ivory trade for some reason).

They use ivory for meth pipes

seems a bit high priced for a meth pipe 

example of billboard.

Do you have rich Chinese in your city?

well are 3 or 4 asians according to the census, I don't know if they are chinese and or rich.


Not to be racist but China is a hot bed of illegal animal sales
 
2014-05-25 12:26:25 PM  

Elegy: rohar: Elegy: rapidly integrating cities with the most upwardly mobile black populations are in the south; that most majority black cities in the south these days are run by black mayors and policed by majority black police forces

...and they still have the lowest economic mobility in the nation.

[graphics8.nytimes.com image 650x344]

Which is arguably more indicative of the general lack of economic opportunity in the rural south than it is any institutional racism. You didn't include a breakdown of upward mobility by race, so it adds nothing to your argument.

Source for map please, I love this stuff.

A cursor glance at a map of segregation reveals that the majority of fifth quintile cities for the dissimilarity index are in the north:
[i.imgur.com image 532x606]

I suggest you explore census scope For various northern and southern metropolitan areas.

For example, Atlanta beats the hell out of Detroit for exposure between blacks and whites (sharing stores, schools, etc):
Atlanta:
[i.imgur.com image 501x519]
And Detroit:
[i.imgur.com image 501x519]

The dissimilarity index is even more telling:
Atlanta:
[i.imgur.com image 515x510]
Detroit:
[i.imgur.com image 515x510]

The south is no panracial utopia by any means, but at present it is worlds better than most of the north; these patterns hold across the a comparison of most major metropolitan areas.

The north is being left behind in the search for racial socioeconomic equality, and all they can do is biatch about how racist the south is as they confine their black populations into increasingly hellish ghettos.

You don't even want to see the maps on incarceration rates by race by state. Or do you?


Interesting.  But if integration is the goal, if success is the goal, what point is there to being a successful individual in the least successful portion of the country?  If this is the goal, we've met it.  Being the best of the worst wouldn't be my goal though.
 
2014-05-25 12:27:01 PM  
The United States paid for slavery with an ocean of blood (600,000+ combat deaths in the civil war plus who knows how many civilians in the south died under Sherman's march) and treasure.  The people most directly responsible (slave holders) lost everything after the civil war plus the non-slave holding whites paid a heavy penance during reconstruction.  We have spent trillions upon trillions on welfare that goes disproportionately to black Americans.  All of that may not and is probably not equal to the suffering of blacks during slavery, but it is a tremendous price to pay.

Even, then, who the hell would pay and who would collect?  My grandparents on my mother's side came here from Europe in the early 1900's.  My father's family was dirt poor and he didn't finish high school because when my father's father died, my father dropped out of school in 10th grade to work to support his mom.  I have zero benefits from slavery.  Then, how can you tell who are direct descendants of slavery?  Are people who are 4/5th white with some black going to benefit?  Are we going to have a government genealogy program to identify who pays and who collects.

We should never forget, but I assure you we do not.  My children going through public school in Florida in English/literature classes have about 3/4ths of the books they are assigned to ready directly dealing with slavery and racism.  You can't escape it.  It is not forgotten or brushed under the rug.

No matter how eloquent or well written the article is, this is a beyond dumb idea.
 
2014-05-25 12:33:39 PM  

CivicMindedFive: No matter how eloquent or well written the article is, this is a beyond dumb idea.


In the time you spent writing that post you could have read enough of the article to realize that it mainly isn't about slavery or about just cutting checks to black people. In short, you just devoted a lot of time to embarrassing yourself.
 
2014-05-25 12:33:51 PM  
I would have no problem paying additional taxes for reparations in the form of increased funding to minority impoverished areas.  Money dedicated to building and improving educational infrastructure, increasing teachers pay to make teaching in these areas financially attractive to attract the best talent, offer free skilled labor training, zero interest business loans to minority business leaders who open up shop and hire in these areas, drug abuse counseling, job placement and counseling, free day care to working parents, recreational facilities, free legal counseling, etc.  instead of a one time check in someone's mailbox to spend on a flat screen.
 
2014-05-25 12:37:42 PM  

rohar: Interesting.  But if integration is the goal, if success is the goal, what point is there to being a successful individual in the least successful portion of the country?  If this is the goal, we've met it.  Being the best of the worst wouldn't be my goal though.


Have you know sense of place and regional pride or identity? A sense of "I come from here and despite its problems I am proud to be from here because it has made me who I am?" Have you no family that lives in one area, or no familial feelings that cause you to want to remain in one place and not another?

Have you no common sense, that you would go to a place which in absolute terms might be "more successful" but has demonstrably less opportunity for improvement due to racism?

There are many reasons people want to remain in the south: cultural, familial, economic, etc. The south is also the homeland for the majority of the black population in America, most of whom are proud of being southern. Why you would think it odd that so many blacks would choose to remain near their home culture, their families, and in a place that provides more relative opportunity (despite suffering in an absolute sense) is beyond me, honestly.

The solution of "pack up and get out because poors" makes little sense when the places you would move afford less opportunity, would dislocate you culturally, and would result in a net increase in discrimination.

If life for northern blacks is marked by a greater institutional racism than in the south, how much worse is it when you are a translocation southern black who receives a double helping of disdain for the double sin of not only being black, but also an ignorant southerner marked by your "hick" accent?
 
2014-05-25 12:39:30 PM  

rohar: Brosephus: rohar: Brosephus: TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.

If I were a White American, I'd be somewhat embarrassed that someone just like me could be this farking ignorant.


You obviously don't understand the extreme distribution of IQ among white males.  Of any group on the planet, it is the most extreme.

I'd wager that the Brothers can run right alongside you.  When you can go from people with the inventiveness of GW Carver or Garrett Morgan all the way down to Pookie on'da Corner, we can hit damn near every number on the IQ RPM meter.

On average, sure.  But then there's the science.  It turns out the variability is important here.  Most groups on the face of the planet have a fairly tight distribution of IQ.  This seems natural and normal.  Then there's white men.  What a random lot.

If we only compare white men to white women, the math is easily available.  At 1 standard deviation, and IQ of 130 we see two men for every woman.  Sadly, the same is true at 70.

Turns out there's a lot of variability on 2 factors.  Men are more variable than women.  White folk seem to be more variable than others.  I'd suggest it's likely this extends beyond IQ.

Maybe this is why it's hard to be racist against white men, they're so damned random they're hard to group.


Gotcha!!!!
 
2014-05-25 12:39:34 PM  
So if I stab someone's black grandfather, I have to pay the black grandson's hospital bill because he magically started bleeding, too? Riiiiight.

Slavery was terrible, but modern blacks need to stop trying to take credit for what their ancestors endured.
 
2014-05-25 12:40:33 PM  

Miss Alexandra: Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.  In fact the first slave owner in America was--wait for it!--black!  http://topconservativenews.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was - a-black-man/

What about Arabs involved in the slave trade?  Why aren't the race hustlers shaking them down?  (Maybe they're afraid that the Arabs will declare jihad?  Who knows....)

How about the fact that slavery still goes on in Africa even today?

You can take that white guilt, shine it up, turn it sideways (I think you know the rest)....

As far as I'm concerned, blacks have already gotten reparations.  It's known as Section 8, welfare, and various other kinds of freebies.

Victimhood is an industry nowadays, it seems....


Glad to see stormfront is checking in.
 
2014-05-25 12:41:04 PM  

CivicMindedFive: The United States paid for slavery with an ocean of blood (600,000+ combat deaths in the civil war plus who knows how many civilians in the south died under Sherman's march) and treasure.  The people most directly responsible (slave holders) lost everything after the civil war plus the non-slave holding whites paid a heavy penance during reconstruction.  We have spent trillions upon trillions on welfare that goes disproportionately to black Americans.  All of that may not and is probably not equal to the suffering of blacks during slavery, but it is a tremendous price to pay.

Even, then, who the hell would pay and who would collect?  My grandparents on my mother's side came here from Europe in the early 1900's.  My father's family was dirt poor and he didn't finish high school because when my father's father died, my father dropped out of school in 10th grade to work to support his mom.  I have zero benefits from slavery.  Then, how can you tell who are direct descendants of slavery?  Are people who are 4/5th white with some black going to benefit?  Are we going to have a government genealogy program to identify who pays and who collects.

We should never forget, but I assure you we do not.  My children going through public school in Florida in English/literature classes have about 3/4ths of the books they are assigned to ready directly dealing with slavery and racism.  You can't escape it.  It is not forgotten or brushed under the rug.

No matter how eloquent or well written the article is, this is a beyond dumb idea.


Didn't read the article, huh?  To quote others, It's not just about slavery!!!
 
2014-05-25 12:41:13 PM  

drgloryboy: a one time check in someone's mailbox to spend on a flat screen.


You think that the average amount stolen from a black family in the US, returned with compound interest, would be on the order of a thousand dollars?
 
2014-05-25 12:41:17 PM  

CivicMindedFive: The United States paid for slavery with an ocean of blood (600,000+ combat deaths in the civil war plus who knows how many civilians in the south died under Sherman's march) and treasure.  The people most directly responsible (slave holders) lost everything after the civil war plus the non-slave holding whites paid a heavy penance during reconstruction.  We have spent trillions upon trillions on welfare that goes disproportionately to black Americans.  All of that may not and is probably not equal to the suffering of blacks during slavery, but it is a tremendous price to pay.

Even, then, who the hell would pay and who would collect?  My grandparents on my mother's side came here from Europe in the early 1900's.  My father's family was dirt poor and he didn't finish high school because when my father's father died, my father dropped out of school in 10th grade to work to support his mom.  I have zero benefits from slavery.  Then, how can you tell who are direct descendants of slavery?  Are people who are 4/5th white with some black going to benefit?  Are we going to have a government genealogy program to identify who pays and who collects.

We should never forget, but I assure you we do not.  My children going through public school in Florida in English/literature classes have about 3/4ths of the books they are assigned to ready directly dealing with slavery and racism.  You can't escape it.  It is not forgotten or brushed under the rug.

No matter how eloquent or well written the article is, this is a beyond dumb idea.


How would you know? You didn't read it.
 
2014-05-25 12:43:59 PM  

TerminalEchoes: So if I stab someone's black grandfather, I have to pay the black grandson's hospital bill because he magically started bleeding, too? Riiiiight.

Slavery was terrible, but modern blacks need to stop trying to take credit for what their ancestors endured.


No, but if somebody robbed the black grandfather, and you are living now off the proceeds of that robbery, then it is wrong not to make some kind of restitution to the modern-day grandson.
 
2014-05-25 12:45:24 PM  

Elegy: rohar: Elegy: rapidly integrating cities with the most upwardly mobile black populations are in the south; that most majority black cities in the south these days are run by black mayors and policed by majority black police forces

...and they still have the lowest economic mobility in the nation.

[graphics8.nytimes.com image 650x344]

Which is arguably more indicative of the general lack of economic opportunity in the rural south than it is any institutional racism. You didn't include a breakdown of upward mobility by race, so it adds nothing to your argument.

Source for map please, I love this stuff.

A cursor glance at a map of segregation reveals that the majority of fifth quintile cities for the dissimilarity index are in the north:
[i.imgur.com image 532x606]

I suggest you explore census scope For various northern and southern metropolitan areas.

For example, Atlanta beats the hell out of Detroit for exposure between blacks and whites (sharing stores, schools, etc):
Atlanta:
[i.imgur.com image 501x519]
And Detroit:
[i.imgur.com image 501x519]

The dissimilarity index is even more telling:
Atlanta:
[i.imgur.com image 515x510]
Detroit:
[i.imgur.com image 515x510]

The south is no panracial utopia by any means, but at present it is worlds better than most of the north; these patterns hold across the a comparison of most major metropolitan areas.

The north is being left behind in the search for racial socioeconomic equality, and all they can do is biatch about how racist the south is as they confine their black populations into increasingly hellish ghettos.

You don't even want to see the maps on incarceration rates by race by state. Or do you?


So your first map tells us that the north has more metropolitan areas, and your other comparisons reveal the startling fact that Detroit is an even shiattier place to live than Atlanta.

Thus the South is better.... quod erat demonstrandum
 
2014-05-25 12:46:48 PM  

Poot beer: CivicMindedFive: The United States paid for slavery with an ocean of blood (600,000+ combat deaths in the civil war plus who knows how many civilians in the south died under Sherman's march) and treasure.  The people most directly responsible (slave holders) lost everything after the civil war plus the non-slave holding whites paid a heavy penance during reconstruction.  We have spent trillions upon trillions on welfare that goes disproportionately to black Americans.  All of that may not and is probably not equal to the suffering of blacks during slavery, but it is a tremendous price to pay.

Even, then, who the hell would pay and who would collect?  My grandparents on my mother's side came here from Europe in the early 1900's.  My father's family was dirt poor and he didn't finish high school because when my father's father died, my father dropped out of school in 10th grade to work to support his mom.  I have zero benefits from slavery.  Then, how can you tell who are direct descendants of slavery?  Are people who are 4/5th white with some black going to benefit?  Are we going to have a government genealogy program to identify who pays and who collects.

We should never forget, but I assure you we do not.  My children going through public school in Florida in English/literature classes have about 3/4ths of the books they are assigned to ready directly dealing with slavery and racism.  You can't escape it.  It is not forgotten or brushed under the rug.

No matter how eloquent or well written the article is, this is a beyond dumb idea.

How would you know? You didn't read it.


Why don't you summarize it for me.  I don't have the time or inclination to read it.  Let me know that the conclusion is on exactly how we should implement this scheme and why the blood and treasure already spent and is continued to be spent (look at black vs. white crime for blood) is not enough.
 
2014-05-25 12:48:42 PM  
Aww... Someone else trying to justify why they should get my money.

That's adorable.
 
2014-05-25 12:51:28 PM  

svanmeter: So the Africans who captured the slaves should pay reparations I guess...

And the descendant of freed slaves who owned slaves should pay too.

Barak Obama should pay too since he's 1/2 white

Since my ancestors fought and died to free the slaves my kids should receive reparations from the ancestors of those who were freed.

If this all sounds silly, it's because the whole reparations idea is silly. It's time to move on.


I think it all sounds pretty reasonable...because it IS fairly reasonable.
 
2014-05-25 12:54:11 PM  

drgloryboy: I would have no problem paying additional taxes for reparations in the form of increased funding to minority impoverished areas.  Money dedicated to building and improving educational infrastructure, increasing teachers pay to make teaching in these areas financially attractive to attract the best talent, offer free skilled labor training, zero interest business loans to minority business leaders who open up shop and hire in these areas, drug abuse counseling, job placement and counseling, free day care to working parents, recreational facilities, free legal counseling, etc.  instead of a one time check in someone's mailbox to spend on a flat screen.


Sounds reasonable.
 
2014-05-25 12:55:52 PM  

Elegy: rohar: Interesting.  But if integration is the goal, if success is the goal, what point is there to being a successful individual in the least successful portion of the country?  If this is the goal, we've met it.  Being the best of the worst wouldn't be my goal though.

Have you know sense of place and regional pride or identity? A sense of "I come from here and despite its problems I am proud to be from here because it has made me who I am?" Have you no family that lives in one area, or no familial feelings that cause you to want to remain in one place and not another?

Have you no common sense, that you would go to a place which in absolute terms might be "more successful" but has demonstrably less opportunity for improvement due to racism?

There are many reasons people want to remain in the south: cultural, familial, economic, etc. The south is also the homeland for the majority of the black population in America, most of whom are proud of being southern. Why you would think it odd that so many blacks would choose to remain near their home culture, their families, and in a place that provides more relative opportunity (despite suffering in an absolute sense) is beyond me, honestly.

The solution of "pack up and get out because poors" makes little sense when the places you would move afford less opportunity, would dislocate you culturally, and would result in a net increase in discrimination.

If life for northern blacks is marked by a greater institutional racism than in the south, how much worse is it when you are a translocation southern black who receives a double helping of disdain for the double sin of not only being black, but also an ignorant southerner marked by your "hick" accent?


Yes, I do.  But you brought up the trigger word "pride".  I am proud of where I am from.  But to exhibit pride, first you have to be good at something.  The county I was born in has the highest financial mobility in the nation.  Among the best public education in the nation.  While the minority population is low, they're more successful than the entire rest of the minority population in the country.  Those of us that grew up in that system are good at things.

I hate to break this to you, but "The North" is more than the northeast.  We do things differently out west.

I'm not suggesting moving, I'm suggesting emulating truly successful societies within this country.  Being a mayor or police officer in the south ain't no great shakes no matter your race.  Wearing a crown of shiat doesn't make you a king.  There is much better that could be done, and race is only a very small part of it.
 
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