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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 871
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11206 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-25 04:57:11 AM  
It was definitely a thought-provoking article, but there are a few issues I think should have been covered that weren't. Firstly, white people weren't the only slave-holders.  The first permanent slave in the US was a man named John Casor. Prior to Casor's enslavement, black people brought from Africa were indentured servants, with a servitude of seven years.  At the end of their servitude, they were given their freedom and 50 acres.  John Casor's indenture had been bought by a freed black man, who was given the legal right to extend the servitude indefinitely by the courts in 1654.  Thus, the first slave-owner in the colonies was black, rather than white.  This was not a completely isolated event, with several thousand black people being slave owners even in the 1800s. Additionally, Native Americans were also slave owners.

Secondly, just as all slave owners were not all white, all slaves were not all black.  At one point, Irish and Scottish indentured servants cost about 1/10 the price of a black slave or indentured servant. Because of the lower price, in many instances they were treated worse than black slaves. It can be argued that an indenture isn't the same as slavery, but when the owner of the indenture has the power of life and death, there's very little distinction.  Also, Native Americans were enslaved by Europeans throughout the Americas, with over 50,000 Native Americans from the Carolinas alone enslaved.

I believe that rather than direct reparations to black people or even "black communities" reparations should take the form of increased educational opportunities in ALL low-economic communities. These should be provided in conjunction with after-school centers, community gardens, and other such facilities that would both foster a sense of community and empower residents to provide for themselves. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be able to eat every day and all that.

I have ancestors who owned slaves. I have ancestors who were slaves. Because of this, I have a particularly keen interest in slavery, and am working on a project to track down descendants of some of the former slaves interviewed for the slave narrative project in the 1930's. (By the way, anyone interested in slavery in the US should definitely look into these for a first-hand account.) In the slave narratives, the difficulties of life after slavery are detailed, and it is truly appalling what some of these people had to endure, both during slavery and up until the 1930s when the interviews took place. One thing that I've found striking is that the educational level achieved by the children of the former slaves had a quite dramatic effect on the success of succeeding generations.  The greatest success story I've stumbled upon thus far is Augustus Askew.  Augustus was a blacksmith, his wife Irene a laundress. They scrimped and saved and managed to send their children to school. One of their daughters, Mamie, became a school teacher, the other, Gussie, married an engineer.  Gussie's son, Ira Madison, developed the rocket propulsion system still used by NASA.
 
2014-05-25 04:57:35 AM  

Kurmudgeon: BlueDWarrior: No because we aren't discussing reparations in terms of checks.

So by reading the article, the banking system put the screws to a bunch of black people.
Make the banks pay if you can, stay specific, if you say the word "reparations", it clouds the issue.
Good luck, the banks have screwed a lot of folks.


I believe he is trying to expand the idea of reparations from "checks we cut to redress specific grievances" to "reformatting the system to not perpetuate the negative cycles the black community, and by extension most impoverished communities, find themselves in"
 
2014-05-25 04:59:09 AM  

fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"


it is a clever way for "thoughtful" and "progressive" people to be totally reactionary.
 
2014-05-25 05:02:56 AM  

Amberleia: It was definitely a thought-provoking article, but there are a few issues I think should have been covered that weren't. Firstly, white people weren't the only slave-holders.  The first permanent slave in the US was a man named John Casor. Prior to Casor's enslavement, black people brought from Africa were indentured servants, with a servitude of seven years.  At the end of their servitude, they were given their freedom and 50 acres.  John Casor's indenture had been bought by a freed black man, who was given the legal right to extend the servitude indefinitely by the courts in 1654.  Thus, the first slave-owner in the colonies was black, rather than white.  This was not a completely isolated event, with several thousand black people being slave owners even in the 1800s. Additionally, Native Americans were also slave owners.

Secondly, just as all slave owners were not all white, all slaves were not all black.  At one point, Irish and Scottish indentured servants cost about 1/10 the price of a black slave or indentured servant. Because of the lower price, in many instances they were treated worse than black slaves. It can be argued that an indenture isn't the same as slavery, but when the owner of the indenture has the power of life and death, there's very little distinction.  Also, Native Americans were enslaved by Europeans throughout the Americas, with over 50,000 Native Americans from the Carolinas alone enslaved.

I believe that rather than direct reparations to black people or even "black communities" reparations should take the form of increased educational opportunities in ALL low-economic communities. These should be provided in conjunction with after-school centers, community gardens, and other such facilities that would both foster a sense of community and empower residents to provide for themselves. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be able to eat every day and all that.

I have ancestors who owned slaves. I have ances ...


That is what we would be driving toward if our discussions and our politics were to take into account the holistic nature of our problems. But right now we are stuck in the mode where we don't even understand the full nature of how the system was (and still is in a lesser sense) rigged against blacks. And that rigging has expanded to catch all impoverished people now.

I'm guessing the only way we are going to get through this is when an entire generation is held back due to being screwed for being poor like generations of blacks have been held back for having the temerity to be born black...
 
2014-05-25 05:04:20 AM  
Lots in here who A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. F*cking sad
 
2014-05-25 05:05:22 AM  
Here's my case against reparations:

You're dividing the poor into "poor people who deserve to be poor" and "poor people who don't" based, at this point in time, entirely on race. You're basically saying to the whites that because of slavery, they don't deserve help getting back above the poverty line

Since a disproportionate percentage of poor people are black (last I checked, anyway), any program to help ALL of the poor disproportionately helps blacks anyway. The idea of reparations attacks white guilt more than the actual problem of poverty in this country.
 
2014-05-25 05:06:11 AM  

accelerus: would I suddenly be "allowed" to use the N word like they do without fear of getting beaten up or killed? The double standard that exists there pisses me off


If you go up to your girlfriend at the bar and put your arm around here and say hey sweetie, that's okay. If I go up to your girlfriend at a bar and put my arm around her and say hey sweetie, that's not okay. It's about context. Black people using the n word is not a double standard, it's a standard. Of all the things you could have brought up to discuss you pick this? You're not a victim because you can't say a word. Get over that, quickly. We've got a hundred issues a thousand times more important to discuss.
 
2014-05-25 05:12:32 AM  
An article like this (incredibly well written by the way) is utterly wasted on the vast majority of posters (so, so many people have made utter clowns of themselves; it's hilarious) here.

But the authors main point is wholly correct; until you acknowledge the past, you'll never begin the process of moving past it.
 
2014-05-25 05:13:56 AM  

Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.

Your comment literally made me LOL.

I smile a lot reading Fark, I rarely LOL. Cheers!

Thanks! Heck, I didn't even know where it came from until the later comments. It just seemed so typically Fark, a completely random statement in the middle of a long thread. Finding the source just made it better.


Glad to see you Googled it. After a few years I got in the habit of Googling "random" Fark comments, often getting a nice surprise.

// it had nothing to do with the guy being an African
// it was meant to be completely random
 
2014-05-25 05:16:41 AM  
The touch. The feel. Of cotton.

/the fabric of our lives.
 
2014-05-25 05:19:17 AM  

wasteofspace: Lots in here who A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. F*cking sad


There is also the FarKKK element.
 
2014-05-25 05:20:09 AM  

wasteofspace: Lots in here who A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. F*cking sad


I keep seeing this claim, and it remains ridiculous. You do know that it's possible to read and understand something, and still disagree with it?

/no, of course you don't
//with no power comes no responsibility
///or at least, you can declare the people with no power to change anything responsible for your failures, but the result won't be the magical solution you're seeking
 
2014-05-25 05:21:34 AM  

accelerus: I don't care how well written it was... they aren't getting any of my money.  If you want money, do what I do. Go to work.


It's 3:30am on a Sunday and I just woke up because it's called a JOB. I don't really care for it, but it allowed me to buy a home, pay off my car, and do things I enjoy during my off time.


Random question:  if they suddenly got their freebie check, would I suddenly be "allowed" to use the N word like they do without fear of getting beaten up or killed? The double standard that exists there pisses me off, along with any racism exhibited by blacks automatically gets a free pass or swept under the rug.   Also:  you could give people millions of dollars and they will wind right back up in the poor house if they aren't smart enough to safe or exercise any self control.

I'd love to sit here and banter some more - but I have to go actually earn my money. You know, with that thing called a job. (and yes, I really do wake up at 3am for work, IT admin for a 24/7 facility)


You sound like a racist, and a really pathetic excuse for a human. But hey, IT admin, I expect you don't bathe or engage in most human activities.

Go to work, boy. Work work work. It won't make you any less a failure.
 
2014-05-25 05:30:42 AM  

Tatterdemalian: wasteofspace: Lots in here who A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. F*cking sad

I keep seeing this claim, and it remains ridiculous. You do know that it's possible to read and understand something, and still disagree with it?

/no, of course you don't
//with no power comes no responsibility
///or at least, you can declare the people with no power to change anything responsible for your failures, but the result won't be the magical solution you're seeking


It's obviously possible to read something and disagree with it. Don't be farking daft.

Far too many people are disagreeing with what they imagine the article said as evidenced by their rebuttals.
 
2014-05-25 05:35:00 AM  

Tatterdemalian: wasteofspace: Lots in here who A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. F*cking sad

I keep seeing this claim, and it remains ridiculous. You do know that it's possible to read and understand something, and still disagree with it?

/no, of course you don't
//with no power comes no responsibility
///or at least, you can declare the people with no power to change anything responsible for your failures, but the result won't be the magical solution you're seeking


Oh yeah I understand that so get off your high horse sunshine. I'm talking about A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. Plenty of those in here, including yourself by the looks of it.
 
2014-05-25 05:37:52 AM  

Babwa Wawa: And for the record, I hardly see a workable solution to TFA's author's issues, as race-based reparations are difficult to implement and would be questionable in both justification and effect.

That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.


You'll get nothing and like it!
 
2014-05-25 05:38:28 AM  
God, black people sure make some Farkers pretty mad in here.
 
2014-05-25 05:51:29 AM  
I'm fine with reparations for slavery. But I don't think we should pay them directly. Instead we should give black people better services, goods and education. For example wherever there is a water fountain we should have a second one just for black people with a sign saying so. I also think that black people are having their education hindered by being around so many white people and learning white history, we should make sure all black people go to exclusive black only schools where they can learn on their own without feeling oppressed by being around any white children. We should also have special sections on public buses just for for black people to sit in so they will always have a seat, maybe in the rear section.

//Haven't read the article yet.
 
2014-05-25 06:15:19 AM  
And yet: five hundred posts in, and I've yet to see ANYONE (black, white or of a rainbow hue) even move past arguing about who has a right to be angry to even suggest what reparations would LOOK LIKE. Or at best we get warmed-over affirmative action and trite "level the playing field" remarks that essentially do nothing.

Any effort to "acknowledge the past" as some have suggested is invariably, in my experience, met with "you haven't acknowledged it ENOUGH," which usually means "you haven't acknowledged it enough FOR ME," which leads back to the original question: What would reparations look like? What would that be like? What is it that people want to have happen?

Because if it's an honest dialogue about slavery, Jim Crow, black disenfranchisement, institutional racism and the divide&conquer strategies that have been used by the upper class to keep black and poor white at each other's throats since 1770, that's one thing. If it's a race to the bottom to see who has been injured more by being poor and downtrodden (which I already see here in this very thread), that's another. If it's paybacks, that's a third thing.

But the fact is, it's not as simple as "Whites have it better than blacks and so whites should make amends to blacks for being mean all these years" at least not any more. Some whites do have it better than most blacks--but try telling that to a West Virginia coal miner or a Louisiana bayou boy. Some blacks have had a legacy of institutional racism in America; but where does that leave the newly-arrived immigrant from Sudan or a nominally black fifth-generation ex-pat Briton? (If Idris Elba were to move to America, would he now be part of the reparation movement, and why or why not?)

I understand what people think they want--but how is it different from what's ALREADY been tried? Absent making laws that explicitly state "Black people may not be arrested, blacks must be given preferential treatment in civil matters" what would be the net result of non-monetary sociocultural reparations? Because otherwise I foresee this being just another dead end, like the last reparations movement, or Occupy Wall Street--a great idea that collapses for lack of a genuine goal. And that would be sad.
 
2014-05-25 06:21:57 AM  

Gyrfalcon: And yet: five hundred posts in, and I've yet to see ANYONE (black, white or of a rainbow hue) even move past arguing about who has a right to be angry to even suggest what reparations would LOOK LIKE. Or at best we get warmed-over affirmative action and trite "level the playing field" remarks that essentially do nothing.

Any effort to "acknowledge the past" as some have suggested is invariably, in my experience, met with "you haven't acknowledged it ENOUGH," which usually means "you haven't acknowledged it enough FOR ME," which leads back to the original question: What would reparations look like? What would that be like? What is it that people want to have happen?

Because if it's an honest dialogue about slavery, Jim Crow, black disenfranchisement, institutional racism and the divide&conquer strategies that have been used by the upper class to keep black and poor white at each other's throats since 1770, that's one thing. If it's a race to the bottom to see who has been injured more by being poor and downtrodden (which I already see here in this very thread), that's another. If it's paybacks, that's a third thing.

But the fact is, it's not as simple as "Whites have it better than blacks and so whites should make amends to blacks for being mean all these years" at least not any more. Some whites do have it better than most blacks--but try telling that to a West Virginia coal miner or a Louisiana bayou boy. Some blacks have had a legacy of institutional racism in America; but where does that leave the newly-arrived immigrant from Sudan or a nominally black fifth-generation ex-pat Briton? (If Idris Elba were to move to America, would he now be part of the reparation movement, and why or why not?)

I understand what people think they want--but how is it different from what's ALREADY been tried? Absent making laws that explicitly state "Black people may not be arrested, blacks must be given preferential treatment in civil matters" what would be the net result of non- ...


At some point we are going to have to reconcile the fact that our policies in their actual effect are only really geared towards the suburbs and the gated communities I mentioned earlier.

Until we internalize that fact, that everyone who isn't part of the 'in'-crowd is getting royally hosed in this system, you are right, we won't get anywhere.

And a population does not stay 'compliant' when it is being stressed indefinitely...
 
2014-05-25 06:24:06 AM  

Gyrfalcon: But the fact is, it's not as simple as "Whites have it better than blacks and so whites should make amends to blacks for being mean all these years" at least not any more.


Color isn't the problem. Racism is the problem. Link
 
2014-05-25 06:43:46 AM  

astouffer: Is this sponsored by Nike and Beats headphones? Because that's where the money will go.


Lol
 
2014-05-25 06:47:12 AM  
Reparations for slavery = lazy "buggers" who want a free ride.
 
2014-05-25 06:50:25 AM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


WorldstarHipHop
 
2014-05-25 07:04:15 AM  
So the simple answer is to itemise the bill, and require each citizen pay a fixed amount towards the whole. All men are equal. Everybody pays.

The recipients have already benefited from living in a country built by slavery. Why should they be excluded? Citizens are citizens. All men are equal. Everybody pays.

New arrivals will immediately begin to benefit from living in a country built by slavery, so part of the immigration and naturalisation process needs to be settling personal debts from before they arrived. All men are equal. Everybody pays.

Since America will always be a country built by slavery, and recipients not even born yet will need reparations at some time in the future, make the bill perpetual. All men are equal. Everybody pays.
 
2014-05-25 07:07:23 AM  
weekly race baiting thread on fark. Whoda thunk?
 
2014-05-25 07:19:03 AM  
Reparations argument will never end.
 Go ahead and have the government write a check and make all blacks instant winners.
 Then the next generation comes along wondering where all the money went .

 "Our parents lacked the cultural or finical skills to invest or plan for the future.
 Yeah they spent it on big houses or expensive cars, tricked by white values.
 So I'll need you to write another check because I am still suffering,and my Asian doctor from India is suing me for non-payment. Yeah he told me that he's not slave trader,and expected payment; besides India was colonised for hundreds of years too."

Should reparations come in the form free tuition (not everyone goes to college) or exemption from income tax ?

Just another wedge in this increasingly diverse society.
 
2014-05-25 07:30:28 AM  
How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.
 
2014-05-25 07:35:02 AM  
There is a strange powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant hands the black person money.
 
2014-05-25 07:36:02 AM  

Gyrfalcon: And yet: five hundred posts in, and I've yet to see ANYONE (black, white or of a rainbow hue) even move past arguing about who has a right to be angry to even suggest what reparations would LOOK LIKE. Or at best we get warmed-over affirmative action and trite "level the playing field" remarks that essentially do nothing.

Any effort to "acknowledge the past" as some have suggested is invariably, in my experience, met with "you haven't acknowledged it ENOUGH," which usually means "you haven't acknowledged it enough FOR ME," which leads back to the original question: What would reparations look like? What would that be like? What is it that people want to have happen?

Because if it's an honest dialogue about slavery, Jim Crow, black disenfranchisement, institutional racism and the divide&conquer strategies that have been used by the upper class to keep black and poor white at each other's throats since 1770, that's one thing. If it's a race to the bottom to see who has been injured more by being poor and downtrodden (which I already see here in this very thread), that's another. If it's paybacks, that's a third thing.

But the fact is, it's not as simple as "Whites have it better than blacks and so whites should make amends to blacks for being mean all these years" at least not any more. Some whites do have it better than most blacks--but try telling that to a West Virginia coal miner or a Louisiana bayou boy. Some blacks have had a legacy of institutional racism in America; but where does that leave the newly-arrived immigrant from Sudan or a nominally black fifth-generation ex-pat Briton? (If Idris Elba were to move to America, would he now be part of the reparation movement, and why or why not?)

I understand what people think they want--but how is it different from what's ALREADY been tried? Absent making laws that explicitly state "Black people may not be arrested, blacks must be given preferential treatment in civil matters" what would be the net result of non- ...


Wouldn't it be easier to just read the article?
 
2014-05-25 07:36:04 AM  
What the fark is with all the blatant, desperate and above all LATE trolls in this one?
 
2014-05-25 07:36:44 AM  

Duke_leto_Atredes: sprgrss: cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.

So if I'm against reparations I should be put on a plane and flown back to precisely where I'm currently residing?  That's a waste of money.

no plane, boat ride, see how they like the third world shiat hole Africa is.

my Family never held slaves and several served in the army that freed them.


For farks sake, the fact that your family arrived last Tuesday or that they never owned slaves has nothing to do with the case for reparations.

The problem is that Americans like yourself think that American racism is not your problem because blah blah blah.

And for the others in this thread shiatting about "white liberal guilt" who don't get how stupid that makes you sound, might as well stick your fingers in your ears and "Lalalala" out of the thread. Truly clueless as to how funny you are.

I'll just leave this here for the illiterates who can't bother to read the article.
 
2014-05-25 07:40:23 AM  

cchris_39: vernonFL: 40 acres and a mule, Jack.

Sometime around 1965 the dawn of timethe Democrats politiciansfigured out that you only have to promise them that and 90% of them will vote for you whether they ever get it or not.


/FTFY
 
2014-05-25 07:42:14 AM  
FREE TRAYVON!
 
2014-05-25 07:42:37 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Because otherwise I foresee this being just another dead end, like the last reparations movement, or Occupy Wall Street--a great idea that collapses for lack of a genuine goal. And that would be sad.



You can safely say this is a dead end. The only people who could even remotely be held accountable are those who have a traceable amount of property directly resultant from the slave trade.


So you can eliminate the western half of the US, and most of the northeast, and every metropolitan area with a sizable population of immigrants who began arriving around 1880.


All that leaves is the southeast, and from there, you can only go after those who have slave trading ancestors. You can't even use the criteria of merely owning slaves, since those people already paid penalties by losing real property when the slaves they bought and owned were freed.


But that's not the end of the story. I've heard it said more than once that the American Civil War was fought purely to end slavery, there were no other economic or political considerations. So, the descendants of all union soldiers are due some form of payout from their efforts to free the slaves. At least, that's all you're going to hear from states where they came from.


Now, I'd continue this further, but there's no point in prolonging the idiocy. I'll give you the short version. Whites are soon to be outnumbered anyway, and no way are Mexicans going to be willing to pay for this shiat.
 
2014-05-25 07:45:34 AM  

stonelotus: There is a strange powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant hands the black person money.



You magnificent basterd
 
2014-05-25 08:07:37 AM  

cchris_39: vernonFL: 40 acres and a mule, Jack.

Sometime around 1965 the Democrats figured out that you only have to promise them that and 90% of them will vote for you whether they ever get it or not.


It's called the Southern Strategy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

/Nixon, you dolt!
 
2014-05-25 08:08:51 AM  

TheEvilOne23: How about you stop asking for free money. Not gonna happen. EVER. No point in wishing for money for something someone did 200 years ago to someone who is long dead. If you could and should get money coming, then I deserve 1 billion dollars from the NAACP, I was mugged by a black guy. Seems to me ever since Obamass was elected it's been "Let's bash Whitey" and has been for 6 years. Cannot wait til this asshat is out of office.


Recipe for a Fark idiot:

1) do not RTFA
2) do not RTFT
3) spout off pointless passionate attack on what you think it maybe said
4) be defensively outraged when people note the above makes you an idiot.
 
2014-05-25 08:11:33 AM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


The big cities around the country.
 
2014-05-25 08:20:41 AM  
How about if we pin point every deep red, rebel flag loving area of the American south and carpet bomb it non stop it for a week? Could we call it even then? Maybe we could pull America out of it death spiral into the dark ages as well.
 
2014-05-25 08:27:01 AM  
Hey, has anyone mentioned that the article isn't really about reparations for slavery, but rather a call to honest appraisal of the damage that racially driven policies from the second half of the 20th century have inflicted on the African-American community?

And is it perhaps possible that when the author uses the term "reparations" he's actually talking about concrete steps to "repair" that damage, rather than simply saying white people should write checks to black people?

Because I'm seeing a lot of talk about check-writing and slavery from many of the people on this thread, and not much about the actual content of the article.
 
2014-05-25 08:36:09 AM  

letrole: Now, I'd continue this further, but there's no point in prolonging the idiocy. I'll give you the short version. Whites are soon to be outnumbered anyway, and no way are Mexicans going to be willing to pay for this shiat.


... I don't think I've agreed with letrole before, but hell, that's a damn good point.
 
2014-05-25 08:41:13 AM  

RevCarter: Because I'm seeing a lot of talk about check-writing and slavery from many of the people on this thread, and not much about the actual content of the article.


There's also a lot of discussion in this thread about people who haven't read the article.
 
2014-05-25 08:42:30 AM  

Lee451: IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?

The big cities around the country.


I would imagine the difference between Houston and Chicago and New York are fairly large for reasons that aren't clear to the outsider. Racism exists everywhere. So does culturism - which often but not always is the same thing.
(my definition of cultureism is where Irish and Italians won't group together naturally if there's another choice, just as Kenyan immigrants won't group together with immigrants from Nigeria.

The fact that "Chinatowns" exist in cities isn't because non-Asians put them there.
The writer of the article (I got about half way through, sorry) seems to be correct in saying that the "system"
forced racial grouping in many things, and this is bad. I agree. They were grouped based on race by the system, and not by choice. In many cities.

Houston is the largest city in the nation that doesn't have zoning in the way many other cities do.
Not having zoning really screws up the development of the city, but it does provide a large measure of freedom for people to move. I believe that the lack of zoning is a huge thing with respect to race. Not having strict areas means parts of the city (and the people who would control those parts) don't have a strong reason to corrupt the city government to squash down other sections of the city. (Simply goggle "chicago alderman corrupt" and "houston alderman corrupt" and you'll find a big difference -Hint Houston doesn't have aldermen). Assuming the entire nation has to change the corruption of the system based on some large cities corruption is neglecting where that corruption was muted-by either happy accident or design.

I wouldn't want to have a discussion on how "the system" forced one race into a life of being stuck where they couldn't leave and couldn't change their lot in lives without discussing how other areas have at least mitigated some of the issues.

I get the gist of the article, in that Reparations doesn't always mean money for people today, but can mean a change in the system for more chances at equality for people tomorrow. As some folks will note, there has been efforts made to equalize some of the inequality. Not everything works, and some of those attempts fail horribly. It's my opinion that we'll be having this conversation 100 years from now.
 
2014-05-25 08:42:30 AM  

robohobo: Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: This thread just confirms my belief that the welfare queen is the most destructive modern caricature of Blacks, at least to me.

throw in the lazy drug dealing thug young black man who has father 3 or 4 babies with 3 or 4 different moms. 

Hollywood sure doesn't help matters much.

[ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com image 400x299]

/LULZ!


I've always gotten a skeevy "minstrel show" vibe from TV shows like that

/ produced & made by Hollywood people; people who give "liberals" a bad name, IMHO.
 
2014-05-25 08:52:21 AM  

starsrift: letrole: Now, I'd continue this further, but there's no point in prolonging the idiocy. I'll give you the short version. Whites are soon to be outnumbered anyway, and no way are Mexicans going to be willing to pay for this shiat.

... I don't think I've agreed with letrole before, but hell, that's a damn good point.


As an aside... Mexican is a nationality not a race. In a country where you are born to citizenry, why are a large swath of the population still being referred to by the nationality of their ancestors? I will also mention the curious case of places like Arizona where the government that has been there for 150 or so years wants to be able to demand citizenship papers at will based on racial characteristics of people who may have been there for several hundred years.
 
2014-05-25 08:56:20 AM  

Amberleia: It was definitely a thought-provoking article, but there are a few issues I think should have been covered that weren't. Firstly, white people weren't the only slave-holders.  The first permanent slave in the US was a man named John Casor. Prior to Casor's enslavement, black people brought from Africa were indentured servants, with a servitude of seven years.  At the end of their servitude, they were given their freedom and 50 acres.  John Casor's indenture had been bought by a freed black man, who was given the legal right to extend the servitude indefinitely by the courts in 1654.  Thus, the first slave-owner in the colonies was black, rather than white.  This was not a completely isolated event, with several thousand black people being slave owners even in the 1800s. Additionally, Native Americans were also slave owners.

Secondly, just as all slave owners were not all white, all slaves were not all black.  At one point, Irish and Scottish indentured servants cost about 1/10 the price of a black slave or indentured servant. Because of the lower price, in many instances they were treated worse than black slaves. It can be argued that an indenture isn't the same as slavery, but when the owner of the indenture has the power of life and death, there's very little distinction.  Also, Native Americans were enslaved by Europeans throughout the Americas, with over 50,000 Native Americans from the Carolinas alone enslaved.

I believe that rather than direct reparations to black people or even "black communities" reparations should take the form of increased educational opportunities in ALL low-economic communities. These should be provided in conjunction with after-school centers, community gardens, and other such facilities that would both foster a sense of community and empower residents to provide for themselves. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be able to eat every day and all that.

I have ancestors who owned slaves. I have ancestors who were slaves. Because of this, I have a particularly keen interest in slavery, and am working on a project to track down descendants of some of the former slaves interviewed for the slave narrative project in the 1930's. (By the way, anyone interested in slavery in the US should definitely look into these for a first-hand account.) In the slave narratives, the difficulties of life after slavery are detailed, and it is truly appalling what some of these people had to endure, both during slavery and up until the 1930s when the interviews took place. One thing that I've found striking is that the educational level achieved by the children of the former slaves had a quite dramatic effect on the success of succeeding generations.  The greatest success story I've stumbled upon thus far is Augustus Askew.  Augustus was a blacksmith, his wife Irene a laundress. They scrimped and saved and managed to send their children to school. One of their daughters, Mamie, became a school teacher, the other, Gussie, married an engineer.  Gussie's son, Ira Madison, developed the rocket propulsion system still used by NASA.


My ancestors were slaves well after the civil war was over. Right here in this country. They were just Italians though so it doesn't matter. There wasn't ever any systematic oppression of Italians in this country. No stereotypes about being criminals. It aliens were allowed to live wherever they wanted and were greeted with monied handshakes and hearty slaps on the back. That's where the name wop came from. All those hearty slaps on the back sounded like wop wop wop. But hey they assimilated within a generation or two and do all is good. I heard there was even a few movies and an entire tv series on hbo about Italians that won awards. Those shows were probably very accurate portrayals of Italian Americans. Of course it is just anecdotal and all but my slave ancestors chose to come hear as salves so the slavery was just awesome. They were initially slaves in Brazil but were sold to someone in Mississippi. I wonder how many of you know that the United States only accounted for less than 5 percent if the African salve trade? It doesn't matter though because my slave ancestors were not African. They were just slaves in Brazil that got sold to a guy in Mississippi. After the civil war. Because owning black salves after the civil war was not legal. Turns out owning white salves wasn't legal either but it took a long time to get to court in that little issue as a slave in Mississippi.

Good thing my fathers side if the family was Irish. No slavery there. Unless you count the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of oppression by the British. That wasn't the USA though so no big deal. The Irish came to America because they wanted to not because they were deliberately starved to death. The use was so kind to recreate that event in the homeland by trying to also starve all the Irish. At least the Irish were able to elect a president after a few generations. Then he got shot. So did his brother who was trying to become president. Damn lucky Irish. No oppression of the irish in the United States at all. We still celebrate their greatest stereotype by getting plastered once a year on green beer. Because the Irish are all drunks and everything in Ireland is green.

Don't even get me started in the catholic thing. There hasn't ever been oppression of Catholics in this country. I hear banks just opened the vaults and let you take as much money as you wanted if you knew the rosary. Like a secret handshake. That's why so many Irish and Italians turned to a life of crime and voting fraud through political machines. They confused themselves with the truly rich that get to do those things because banks were giving them so much money for being catholic.

All those ethnic neighborhoods for Irish and Italians were cute little enclaves where they chose to live not because of redlining or whatever cool phrase you want to apply to it. But hey it's ok because everything is equal now if you are white. Everything is easy peasy. Because no oppression ever and white skin means you blend in.

Ever wonder why the Jews set up shop in Hollywood? They probably just liked the sun and playing with cameras out there. No oppression there. Not that not affects me though as I am not Jewish. I look just like them though due to the white skin.

I did marry an injun gal. Did you know there are more injuns now than when the white man landed in North America? I didn't. I just though I stole a bit more injun land if you get my meaning. I figured I kissed out on oppressing folks and this was my chance. Turns out I was wrong. The Indians though they were pretty good at killing and enslaving well before the white man showed up. Whitey did almost wipe them out and hasn't been very nice at all. I wonder what would happen if they found oil in tribal land? Seems weird all that oil in North Dakota and none on Indian land? Kind if strange thing though. Only get to be an Indian if a tribal council says you are an Indian. They don't just let anyone be an Indian.
 
2014-05-25 08:58:12 AM  
"White ancestors of Union soldiers should be paid reparations from blacks and southern whites for freeing the slaves. "

I think descendants was the intent, not ancestors....but you DO realize that blacks aren't going to go for this and white unionist and confederate lineages have since co-mingled? A huge swath of "white" Americans ancestors arrived post Ellis Island but even for those whose roots go further back, they had ancestors on both sides of the Civil War. So the ancestry research and assignment of levies and discounts would be mind-boggling. (Note to the persons who absurdly try to generalize the makeup of the highly migration-swollen urban south).

That's why the reparations advocates always want to go for pan-guilt. Even those post Ellis Island get stuck with it. Less muss, less fuss. Also why it ain't gonna ever happen in a check's in the mail type format, and probably as time marches on, in much of any format at all.
 
2014-05-25 09:02:28 AM  

Darkridr: starsrift: letrole: Now, I'd continue this further, but there's no point in prolonging the idiocy. I'll give you the short version. Whites are soon to be outnumbered anyway, and no way are Mexicans going to be willing to pay for this shiat.

... I don't think I've agreed with letrole before, but hell, that's a damn good point.

As an aside... Mexican is a nationality not a race. In a country where you are born to citizenry, why are a large swath of the population still being referred to by the nationality of their ancestors? I will also mention the curious case of places like Arizona where the government that has been there for 150 or so years wants to be able to demand citizenship papers at will based on racial characteristics of people who may have been there for several hundred years.


Because it's a country of immigrants. Same goes for Pakistanis, Indians, Germans, etc etc.
 
2014-05-25 09:04:00 AM  
What happened to black people in the United States in the past was terrible.

But that was in the PAST. Black people today don't have to deal with the things their older relatives and ancestors had to.

Anyone who says otherwise is either blinded by white guilt or benefits from the idea that terrible racism still exists.

I will happily pay reparations to any black person I have treated differently because of the color of their skin.

/that would be no one
 
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