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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 871
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11217 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-25 02:32:53 AM  

Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.


FAIL. The Irish and the Chinese came here of their own free will, and could leave the same way. Some were even encouraged to. The Irish in particular took only a couple of generations to become as white as anyone else, especially when they began to be elected as politicians and hired by police forces. Even Jews disappeared into the whiteness that was this country when they wanted to... ever heard of the famous Horwitz brothers?
Native Americans got thrown out of their own house... ain't that some sh*t?
Can't speak for women, since unfortunately they've been brutalized since there have been men and women.

African Americans don't want a check, although we wouldn't turn one down... all we want is to be treated like "americans". No "special treatment" by police or the courts, no "advantages" in schools, for loans or scholarships... just treated like everyone should be. Don't look at the name on my resume, look at my education and experience. Don't look at the neighborhood I live in, look at my credit score for that loan. Don't look at my impressive tan during the job interview, look at how well-creased my dress shirt is and how shiny my shoes are.

Not like black people, but like people. Is that too much to ask? Apparently and for the last 400 years, the answer seems to be... yes.
 
2014-05-25 02:33:44 AM  
TFA is long, and I barely made it through.

I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

/ not that it should matter, but my family is mixed race
 
2014-05-25 02:34:05 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Are we really dismissing wide-scale, scientifically done studies in favor of limited personal experience and anecdotes?


http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felo n- same-chances-for-hire/

Was that this study? Because this study took place in only two cities.

Also:   I hired young men to pose as job applicants, assigning them resumes with equal levels of education and experience, and sending them to apply for real entry-level job openings all over the city.

This is practically anecdotal on its own. It's certainly suggestive, but that's it. Climate change has "wide-scale, scientifically done studies" confirming it. This has one study, with no repeated confirmation and a large possibility for error and bias.
 
2014-05-25 02:34:05 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm not racially sinning today either so leave me out of it.

For the second time, it's not about you. It's about America. Jesus christ.


Jesus Christ eh? I'll see your JC, and raise you one Vassago, and one Flying Spaghetti. Welcome to Fark/America/Humanity. No refunds.
 
2014-05-25 02:35:19 AM  

rewind2846: Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.

FAIL. The Irish and the Chinese came here of their own free will, and could leave the same way. Some were even encouraged to. The Irish in particular took only a couple of generations to become as white as anyone else, especially when they began to be elected as politicians and hired by police forces. Even Jews disappeared into the whiteness that was this country when they wanted to... ever heard of the famous Horwitz brothers?
Native Americans got thrown out of their own house... ain't that some sh*t?
Can't speak for women, since unfortunately they've been brutalized since there have been men and women.

African Americans don't want a check, although we wouldn't turn one down... all we want is to be treated like "americans". No "special treatment" by police or the courts, no "advantages" in schools, for loans or scholarships... just treated like everyone should be. Don't look at the name on my resume, look at my education and experience. Don't look at the neighborhood I live in, look at my credit score for that loan. Don't look at my impressive tan during the job interview, look at how well-creased my dress shirt is and how shiny my shoes are.

Not like black people, but like people. Is that too much to ask? Apparently and for the last 400 years, the answer seems to be... yes.


I can't tell you how much I agree with this sentiment.
No special advantages, just a rebalancing of the scales so that it is truly equal.
 
2014-05-25 02:35:54 AM  

Waldo Pepper: it doesn't matter to the person who was passed over for the job.

go to the rural south and tell the poor whites down there that the inner city blacks have less opportunities. a poor rural kids lives 10 miles from the small local library and no public transportation to get him/her there or to a job where the urban kid at least has a way to get to great resources that the urban areas have.  

as was mentioned earlier. The issue we should focus on is the poor and those just above the poverty line. it could almost be argued that most of those folks are poor as a result of slavery in one way or another.


Read my family's story up a few posts in this thread.  It illustrates how my family would have been caught in a cycle of poverty and criminality had we been black.  Lucky for me, we're white.

So me, my siblings, and cousins are doing great because of the bootstraps and all!
 
2014-05-25 02:36:35 AM  
Babwa Wawa:

Oh wow.  You realize that you're not doing your alma mater any favors with ignorant, racist posts like this, right?


As a black OU grad, I want to give my fellow bobcat the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just a joke and that he's not foolish enough to actually think like that. So that's what I'm going with.
 
2014-05-25 02:37:41 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: you can have your studies,

Yeah, who needs evidence when you can simply turn to prejudice?

if you are going to quote me at least have the courtesy to use my entire quote.

please show my prejudice in my hiring practices. I can assure you that you will unable to find any negative ones.


More interesting to me than your anecdotal evidence is your out-of-hand dismissal of any academic study of the matter.

Tell me about your mother.
 
2014-05-25 02:37:45 AM  

Boojum2k: This is practically anecdotal on its own. It's certainly suggestive, but that's it. Climate change has "wide-scale, scientifically done studies" confirming it. This has one study, with no repeated confirmation and a large possibility for error and bias.


oooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg g h don't DO that!!
 
2014-05-25 02:38:13 AM  

starsrift: TFA is long, and I barely made it through.

I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

/ not that it should matter, but my family is mixed race


I don't think he was saying "We should only help poor blacks."
He was more saying "Poor blacks might need more help than other groups because they are a good distance behind the starting line."

In the end I don't think T-NC is trying to say blacks should be put on a pedestal above everyone else, though some of it might leak through due to natural human bias. He is saying that blacks might need more work in terms of trying to level everyone's pedestals off.
 
2014-05-25 02:39:13 AM  

Kittypie070: don't DO that!!


It's late and it was the best example I could think of. Maybe I should have gone with General Relativity?
 
2014-05-25 02:39:36 AM  

Waldo Pepper: it doesn't matter to the person who was passed over for the job.

go to the rural south and tell the poor whites down there that the inner city blacks have less opportunities. a poor rural kids lives 10 miles from the small local library and no public transportation to get him/her there or to a job where the urban kid at least has a way to get to great resources that the urban areas have.
as was mentioned earlier. The issue we should focus on is the poor and those just above the poverty line. it could almost be argued that most of those folks are poor as a result of slavery in one way or another.


Please, pretty please, with sugar on top, read the article.
 
2014-05-25 02:39:45 AM  
I really wish that he hadn't used the word 'reparations' in the article.  It elicits a knee-jerk response because money papering over these wounds is stupid.  As far as the discussion, there's no doubt that we need to have more of it.  Possibly by simply airing it out more we can take some of the sting out of it and look at some positive direction.

Personally, it's tough for me.  I grew up in a pretty classic northeast white-bread suburb.  There were, I believe, exactly two black families at my school.  The area is pretty strongly liberal, so I honestly never understood a racist point of view.  The black kids at our school were just as smart as anyone else, and spoke the same, and did all the same stuff.

Then I joined the Navy.  I was exposed to a large section of the country that I had never experienced.  The combination of ghetto black and Pennsyltucky white was pretty disheartening.  For the first time in my life I understood where the view of black people as lazy and ignorant came from.  And that bothered the hell out of me.  As I went on in the Navy and later in life, I tried to keep my eyes open, and all-in-all, I still stay pretty close to my original view that there's no racial difference.  The problem is cultural.  Decades and centuries of oppression have, it seems to me, turned black city culture inward, and caused them to reject the outside.

This is where the 'acting too white' resentment comes in.  Being well spoken and educated is foreign to a lot of these primarily-black communities that were forced together by housing discrimination, and as a result discouraged.  Doing this creates a negative feedback loop where the people who are in a position to lift themselves out of poverty are belittled by their peers.  I think this is the biggest issue facing black culture right now (once again, admittedly from the outside looking in).  And as people are pointing out, it's a matter of the institutional pressure to keep blacks segregated.  If we can really open up communities, not just legally, but actually creating open environments that encourage and accept black people, we can see some change.
 
2014-05-25 02:41:22 AM  

BlueDWarrior: T-NC


That's a good sight better than "TFA author", which is what I've been referring to him as.  So I'm stealing your acronym.

And don't expect any credit.
 
2014-05-25 02:41:29 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Hrm, I see what you are saying. Though I think the stability of benefits given by a government job is still a significant factor, but I'm not in a position at the moment to look up any studies or articles that could prove or disprove that notion.


Blacks are over-represented in federal government employment, but by very little (about 5%).  State statistics are broken up by state, so there's no aggregate total, but if you look at clerical vs professional  jobs on this page by state you'll see blacks over-represented on lower paying jobs and under-represented on higher paying jobs.  The impression that there are more black people working in government is because you don't meet a director when you get your benefits or license, you meet the peon.  And peons are lower paid, and that means more likely to be a minority.
 
2014-05-25 02:42:08 AM  

Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.


That's fine. Just prove that your own family didn't keep any slaves after that and we're all good.
 
2014-05-25 02:45:43 AM  
People posting all this dumb as shiat stuff without actually reading the article is why this country will never (at least for a couple of centuries) move past institutionalized racism.
 
2014-05-25 02:46:08 AM  
I Browse:

Poser.  I know what you look like.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-25 02:46:13 AM  
This has been truly fascinating. I hope the thread stays open for longer than usual.

/shuffles off to bed
 
2014-05-25 02:48:28 AM  

Kittypie070: This has been truly fascinating. I hope the thread stays open for longer than usual.

/shuffles off to bed


Kitty, don't go.  We need your claws!
 
2014-05-25 02:48:33 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Captain Dan: Lsherm: At my last job my director was black, and he was describing a candidate who was coming in for a job interview and he said "articulate."  I stopped him and asked him if she was black.  He said she was and I pointed out people usually use articulate when describing black people.

Articulate, rightly or wrongly, has become a word in the US that people only use to describe either black people or people otherwise not expected to speak well.  It's an automatic backhanded compliment, so I don't use it at all.

This shows up all the time in NFL/NBA interviews: "[black player] is so articulate!" - as if they were expecting an unintelligible idiot.  They never say it about well-spoken white guys, because there's this implicit racist thought of "he's white, he ought to be articulate."


If he has an extremely low forehead and eyes that seem to look in all directions at the same time... Ah hell, no, forget it: if a footballplayer can actually formulate a proper sentence, I will raise my eyebrows. Doesn't matter the color. I know what you're saying - but this is a really, really bad example. Sports players are almost universally dumb as a brick.

Also a similar effect: the White/Black Doll test.

Yeah, well. Private companies cater for the common denominator. Tough shiat. Blacks in the US account for 13% or something (I don't know the exact number). So again, I know what you're saying, but bad example.
 
2014-05-25 02:49:19 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: it doesn't matter to the person who was passed over for the job.

go to the rural south and tell the poor whites down there that the inner city blacks have less opportunities. a poor rural kids lives 10 miles from the small local library and no public transportation to get him/her there or to a job where the urban kid at least has a way to get to great resources that the urban areas have.  

as was mentioned earlier. The issue we should focus on is the poor and those just above the poverty line. it could almost be argued that most of those folks are poor as a result of slavery in one way or another.

Read my family's story up a few posts in this thread.  It illustrates how my family would have been caught in a cycle of poverty and criminality had we been black.  Lucky for me, we're white.

So me, my siblings, and cousins are doing great because of the bootstraps and all!

but you don't know for sure that you are doing better because you are white. How do you not know that if you had face some of the trials of being black that you wouldn't have came out of those times stronger and more successful?  

I do agree that the odds would have been against you. but you don't know for fact that you are better off.  

the funny thing about this subject is that i've witness quite a bit of black on black racism (if you will).  An educated black man/woman talking down their nose and treating one of my black employees like crap and they would never treat a white employee the same way.


You know, I sympathize with a couple things you brought up, but wow.  You really are the 'but some of my best friends are black' guy.
 
2014-05-25 02:50:18 AM  

rewind2846: ..
Native Americans got thrown out of their own house... ain't that some sh*t?
Can't speak for women, since unfortunately they've been brutalized since there have been men and women.

African Americans don't want a check, although we wouldn't turn one down... all we want is to be treated like "americans". No "special treatment" by police or the courts, no "advantages" in schools, for loans or scholarships... just treated like everyone should be. Don't look at the name on my resume, look at my education and experience. Don't look at the neighborhood I live in, look at my credit score for that loan. Don't look at my impressive tan during the job interview, look at how well-creased my dress shirt is and how shiny my shoes are.

Not like black people, but like people. Is that too much to ask? Apparently and for the last 400 years, the answer seems to be... yes.


Not to mock your points, but you are black & tan? The Irish rebels won't like hearing that. On a more serious note, Natives didn't just "get thrown out the house". They were often infected with deadly disease, religion, lied to, cheated, robbed, unhomed, kidnapped, enslaved, murdered, raped, brutally tortured, and disgraced, among other things. Otherwise, carry on.
 
2014-05-25 02:53:47 AM  
As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.
 
2014-05-25 02:53:54 AM  

Babwa Wawa: I Browse:

Poser.  I know what you look like.

[i.imgur.com image 477x357]



You got me. My secret is out. Now...let me tell you what your cousin Jeffrey has been up to!
 
2014-05-25 02:55:18 AM  

RangerTaylor: You really are the 'but some of my best friends are black' guy.


That pretty much originated with Archie Bunker on All In The Family. The entire point wasn't that it was racist to have black friends, it was that none of the people he was calling friends were actually treated that way, they were all employees and treated like servants or barely acknowledged. He didn't actually have any black friends, really.

It is not actually racist to have friends who are black, nor is it to listen to their opinions and have them affect your own.
 
2014-05-25 02:56:57 AM  

BlueDWarrior: starsrift: I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

I don't think he was saying "We should only help poor blacks."
He was more saying "Poor blacks might need more help than other groups because they are a good distance behind the starting line."

In the end I don't think T-NC is trying to say blacks should be put on a pedestal above everyone else, though some of it might leak through due to natural human bias. He is saying that blacks might need more work in terms of trying to level everyone's pedestals off.


That's a good point to make.
I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.
I hope that made some sense, I know I'm not explaining it well.
 
2014-05-25 03:00:36 AM  

kriegsgeist: This thread is like a giant honeypot for racist farkheads. Filled with delicious, sticky honey.


It's doubly delicious since most of them didn't bother reading TFA before coming in to drop a deuce about slavery in the thread.
 
2014-05-25 03:00:45 AM  
Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.
 
2014-05-25 03:01:36 AM  
When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt, starting with the Great Society era of welfare handouts, section 8 housing, affirmative action up todays EBT cards and encouraging the whole sale slaughter of their race through abortion, you're GD right there should be payback.

When you expect less of a people
, when you convince them that they are unable to rise above their history and reenforce that thought by taking away the incentive to move up and out through hundreds of Governments programs, when you can persuade several generations to vote for the same party that promises deliverance, but in fact only perpetuates their status quo, then that is exactly what you are going to get.
 
2014-05-25 03:02:09 AM  

Waldo Pepper: but you don't know for sure that you are doing better because you are white. How do you not know that if you had face some of the trials of being black that you wouldn't have came out of those times stronger and more successful?


Four year college (for me) without cosigned loans from my dad would have been impossible.  And had he been shuffled off to jail instead of the Navy, he certainly wouldn't have been able to swing it - he was struggling with credit as was, even with a steady pension.  He also probably wouldn't have been able to cosign the loan for the car that I used to deliver Pizza Hut.  While he didn't pay for my college education directly, that education would not have been possible without his steady financial situation.

More importantly, I know that my own will was not strong enough at the time to make my own way.  Without his modest but nonetheless steadfast financial backing, I wouldn't have attained my degree.

I can't speak for my siblings' will.  But I have some pretty f*cking strong evidence that without my father's modest support, my sisters' advanced degrees wouldn't have been attained.  My MD sister would very likely be an RN at most.  My JD sister would be something else.
 
2014-05-25 03:02:16 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


Well as you know, anecdotal information based on "personal experience" trumps any citation.
 
2014-05-25 03:03:15 AM  

starsrift: I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.


Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.
 
2014-05-25 03:04:57 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


[welcometofark.jpg]
 
2014-05-25 03:05:51 AM  

starsrift: BlueDWarrior: starsrift: I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

I don't think he was saying "We should only help poor blacks."
He was more saying "Poor blacks might need more help than other groups because they are a good distance behind the starting line."

In the end I don't think T-NC is trying to say blacks should be put on a pedestal above everyone else, though some of it might leak through due to natural human bias. He is saying that blacks might need more work in terms of trying to level everyone's pedestals off.

That's a good point to make.
I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.
I hope that made some sense, I know I'm not explaining it well.


Basically a lot of the problems are rooted in both private and public institutional policy. And society largely has to be cajoled into doing something by the rules (laws) we set for it.

And sometimes that means some people might get more help than others because they started further back.

I do not begrudge programs that help rural whites, for example. But I do begrudge legislators who say rural whites need help, but refuse to help inner city blacks (and really inner city everyone) because they say aren't as disadvantaged as we all know they are.

When I get home, I want to look up that House proposal/bill that was supposedly supposed to only help rural kids even though it could be applicable to everyone of that general level of poverty. It kinda sucks being in a hot thread while at work.
 
2014-05-25 03:06:54 AM  

kyrg: When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt, starting with the Great Society era of welfare handouts, section 8 housing, affirmative action up todays EBT cards and encouraging the whole sale slaughter of their race through abortion, you're GD right there should be payback.

When you expect less of a people, when you convince them that they are unable to rise above their history and reenforce that thought by taking away the incentive to move up and out through hundreds of Governments programs, when you can persuade several generations to vote for the same party that promises deliverance, but in fact only perpetuates their status quo, then that is exactly what you are going to get.


Oh look, someone else who didn't read the article.

That is like saying someone should have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps after you hacked off their legs with an axe. Just rank stupidity/trolling...
 
2014-05-25 03:07:56 AM  

Carousel Beast: Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?


Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.


officeday: .Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left,



There is zero evidence that the the exodus happened or that ancient Egypt had Hebrew slaves.
 
2014-05-25 03:08:22 AM  

ox45tallboy: starsrift: I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.

Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.


The author laid the bulk of his argument on predatory banks, realtors, and other financial instruments, not the government.
Is there currently a law on the books - and being enforced, forget those curio laws that've never gotten revoked - that is positioned against African-Americans? I'm not aware of one.
 
2014-05-25 03:08:57 AM  

Waldo Pepper: She passed away 6 weeks ago, why do you want to know.


I'm merely curious because you seem to have issues with authority.

So, tell me about your mother.  How did she treat you?  Are you angry?

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-25 03:12:44 AM  

ox45tallboy: It would be a huuuuuuge thing for America to at least acknowledge the institutionalized racism in its public policy for its entire history.


That would involve insight, humility, and work. It would also involve a good hard look in the mirror not only by those who uphold and continue institutionalized racism, but by those who benefit from those acts even though they themselves may not have committed them. It's as if I dug a pit to trap an animal, catch that animal, then leave. Another person comes along, sees the pit, thinks to themselves "boy this would be great to catch animals!", and uses it without lifting one shovelful of dirt.

In other words, not gonna happen.
 
2014-05-25 03:12:50 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


I disagree. As far as "race threads" go...it's been relatively civil, good points made on both sides of the issue, and none of the trolls have been successful in derailing the conversation. I've read posts that have made me think and question. It's been an interesting way to spend a few hours.

Compare this to say...a Zimmerman thread from last summer. After reading those, I felt like blacks and whites were living on different planets. This one has been nothing like that.
 
2014-05-25 03:13:30 AM  

log_jammin: Carousel Beast: Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.

officeday: .Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left,


There is zero evidence that the the exodus happened or that ancient Egypt had Hebrew slaves.


and yes I know that no one cares, but it annoys me.
 
2014-05-25 03:13:31 AM  

ox45tallboy: Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.


The question being, and then what? What promotes a better society for all out of this? Fubini made some excellent points about how actual improvements can be made, but they're a long-term incremental solution, which are notoriously difficult to legislate, and the seizing, taxing, or fining of properties that may have been taken unlawfully by now-deceased persons may or may not pass Constitutional muster (as a bill of attainder).
Also, if current legislation exists that specifically promotes racism, it should be identified and repealed. But no examples of any currently existing legislation like that have been given.
 
2014-05-25 03:14:06 AM  
img.fark.net
Bears repeating amidst this nerd rage.
 
2014-05-25 03:16:48 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Basically a lot of the problems are rooted in both private and public institutional policy. And society largely has to be cajoled into doing something by the rules (laws) we set for it.

And sometimes that means some people might get more help than others because they started further back.


Good point.
 
2014-05-25 03:18:02 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


It was always going to be.  The article is one of the smartest, most provocative pieces written in the past 20 years ( in the real, provocative making you think way.  Not linkbait and trolly way).

And people here will refuse to read it due to a need to sniff their own balls.
 
2014-05-25 03:18:11 AM  

starsrift: The author laid the bulk of his argument on predatory banks, realtors, and other financial instruments, not the government.
Is there currently a law on the books - and being enforced, forget those curio laws that've never gotten revoked - that is positioned against African-Americans? I'm not aware of one.


Wat

The majority of the people in the state were perpetually robbed of the vote-a hijacking engineered through the trickery of the poll tax and the muscle of the lynch mob.
...
The state's regime partnered robbery of the franchise with robbery of the purse.

When Clyde Ross was still a child, Mississippi authorities claimed his father owed $3,000 in back taxes.
...
It was in these early years that Ross began to understand himself as an American-he did not live under the blind decree of justice, but under the heel of a regime that elevated armed robbery to a governing principle.
...
Their efforts were buttressed by the federal government.
...
"A government offering such bounty to builders and lenders could have required compliance with a nondiscrimination policy," Charles Abrams, the urban-studies expert who helped create the New York City Housing Authority, wrote in 1955. "Instead, the FHA adopted a racial policy that could well have been culled from the Nuremberg laws."
 
2014-05-25 03:22:24 AM  

Boojum2k: ox45tallboy: Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.

The question being, and then what? What promotes a better society for all out of this? Fubini made some excellent points about how actual improvements can be made, but they're a long-term incremental solution, which are notoriously difficult to legislate, and the seizing, taxing, or fining of properties that may have been taken unlawfully by now-deceased persons may or may not pass Constitutional muster (as a bill of attainder).
Also, if current legislation exists that specifically promotes racism, it should be identified and repealed. But no examples of any currently existing legislation like that have been given.


In the article I read, the author expressed a conclusion - we should use Federal money to examine the results of centuries of Federal policy of slavery, followed by decades upon decades of institutionalized racism. By doing so, we might at least acknowledge it happened. We might also stumble upon some way of making it better.
 
2014-05-25 03:22:33 AM  

firefly212: As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.


1. Not all black people want to ban gay marriage; aggregate black opinion is split pretty evenly.  Collectively condemning black people based on the actions of some is illogical.

2. Part of being a good person is treating other people well even if they don't treat you well.  Even if every black person in the country opposed gay marriage, it would be immoral to take that as a warrant to treat them poorly.

3. Straight-gay relations are probably the template for the future of race relations.  As long as gays embraced a countercultural / "outside group" identity (for understandable reasons), they were never going to convince most people that they were as fully American as anyone else.  It's only in the past two decades, with the attempts to culturally normalize gay people - as patriotic and moral as straight people - that voter opinion really started shifting towards ending anti-gay discrimination.

It'll be tougher for black people to integrate, just because of economic reasons, but I think that once we get to the point where there's less talk about grievances and more about patriotism and inclusiveness, that's when recalcitrant white people will open their hearts to the real problems facing black people.
 
2014-05-25 03:24:22 AM  

cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.


I love to see Republican racism and bigotry out in the open, where we can all smell how offensive it is.
 
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