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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 951
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11185 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (16 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-25 01:31:36 AM

Babwa Wawa: Boojum2k: A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim.

This is why people need to RTFA.  For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.


Give it up, Babs - nobody is going to read that article.Especially not the people who are really pissed off about it.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:39 AM

Waldo Pepper: poot_rootbeer: Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?

American



No, seriously.  What color are you?

I'm white, and that's relevant to everything that's happened to me in my life.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:55 AM

bk3k: I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.


I believe this thread will still be open once you read it tomorrow.  You may have a different perspective.  Give it some time, and try not to read it on your phone.
 
2014-05-25 01:32:32 AM

Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society.....It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.


Look, flawed as his argument is, and thanks BTW for pointing that out....it's at least a reasonabe attempt at a start.

And look at the part of your statement that I bolded. There's a step forward if I've ever seen one.

Add Fubini's and Lsherm's comments [among others] to that and we can actually get somewhere.
 
2014-05-25 01:32:55 AM
If you can prove that you, personally, were held as a slave in the United States prior to the emancipation proclaimation, you should recieve a million dollars.
 
2014-05-25 01:34:05 AM

BlueDWarrior: And guess what, the poor whites who live in trailer parks in Bumfark, Arkansas are just as royally screwed as the poor black that lives in the middle of South Central.

But we don't EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discuss how to rectify the institutional biases and outright denigration of those who are born in the delapitaed urban core or the equally delapitated rural town/exurb.

Basically our entire policy is focused on the lily white Suburbs, and centralized on the gated communities that the ones with true wealth sequester themselves in.

And that is the discussion the people who live in those places do not want us all to have, because that might mean the focus on society becomes a holistic one, instead of one only focused on what THEY want.

/ why yes I am making a class war argument
// the wealthy are winning and the suburbanites are their foot soldiers
/// Don't be surprised when bricks start flying through windows like they do about every 30-40 years...


I think the general idea, even though the article doesn't explicitly mention it, is that if you can manage to rectify a lot of the issues that affect poor black Americans the solution will rectify a lot of the issues with poor white Americans as well.  The geographical areas of concern are a little different, since extremely poor whites tend to be from sparsely populated rural areas, whereas we've managed to concentrate poor blacks in dense urban areas, but the underlying issues are the same: it's by design.
 
2014-05-25 01:34:57 AM

Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and society a ...


very well said. I believe fatigued or fed up is more accurate than afraid. Other than those over 70 who well it seems once you get past a certain age fear of what you don't understand becomes quite important. Even this fark thread gets old. The moment a person shares or states what they feel about the subject they get labeled a racist. that kills any adult discussion. 

I can believe that blacks aren't treated fair in this country and deserve some form of a break but at the same time be mad if I was passed over for a job simply due to the company having to hire a minority.
 
2014-05-25 01:36:57 AM

poot_rootbeer: Waldo Pepper: poot_rootbeer: Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?

American


No, seriously.  What color are you?

I'm white, and that's relevant to everything that's happened to me in my life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY&feature=kp
 
2014-05-25 01:36:58 AM

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


It's not about revenge. It's about the system not screwing us in the backside every time we try to exercise our agency. Which has only really existed for blacks at large in the last generation and a half.

It's still viciously difficult for the typical Black family to amass wealth, which is what you need for a truly vibrant community, because a lot of us have to work double time to just to run in place.

You are only now starting to see truly wealthy black families in the last generation and a half or so. Of course this creates class dissent within the community (see the talk of the bourgeois black person, acting white).

But that is a discussion for a different article.
 
2014-05-25 01:37:29 AM

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


he reason that most black business fail, is because they are selling a product that they bought from white man. They themselves have gone to the white man, to purchase something to resale to you. Everything that's in the Negro store is a resale, and he has to resale it at a price high enough to get his investment back. The black person that's in business is acting as a salesman for the white wholesaler, and the white producer. The real owner of merchandise that the black business man is selling, is the white man. He robs you when he sells it to you, and you have to turn around and rob your people in order to get your money back, and then you wonder why they won't come in your store. As black people we have to learn to produce something. We have to be producers as well as consumers, and then we can set the sale price at a low cost. If you produced the product that you sold, then you would be eliminating the middle man, and you could sell to your people at a low cost. Everything that leaves your pocket goes into the pocket of the white man. We are being robbed because we produce nothing of our own. Mr. Muhammad said that we must be producers as well as consumers. I don't care if you have a million dollars business, if you are not producing anything, then you are just a rich slave. I don't care how wealthy you are, if you are not producing you are just a slave for your master. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that it is better to be independent, than dependent---MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)


Go into Japanese neighborhoods, you don't see Negro stores. Go into China town, you don't see Negro stores. Go into Jew town, you don't see Negro stores. But come up here in black town and every kind of store is here but yours----MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)
 
2014-05-25 01:38:11 AM

Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.

LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!

ZOMGs Babwa Wawa PETTED MEEEE!!!1!

You're nice :)


Yeah, we can make nice on this stuff, but we'll always have our disagreement on the bureaucracy of NASA in the mid-2000s, won't we?


Yeah, and kiddies in restaurants :D
 
2014-05-25 01:38:26 AM

bk3k: : I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.

I believe this thread will still be open once you read it tomorrow.  You may have a different perspective.  Give it some time, and try not to read it on your phone.


I mean that phone thing not to be fussy or anything. I read it on my phone, and it was way too long and involved for that platform. To be honest, it begs for paper, but I know I'm not ordering any damned magazines.
 
2014-05-25 01:40:36 AM

Waldo Pepper: I can believe that blacks aren't treated fair in this country and deserve some form of a break but at the same time be mad if I was passed over for a job simply due to the company having to hire a minority.


But you wouldn't feel that bad if the minority person was more qualified than you.

Which they would be if they had access to the same opportunities you do.
 
2014-05-25 01:40:37 AM

Kittypie070: Yeah, and kiddies in restaurants :D


You've got me there. I don't even remember that.

So I guess you win on that one?
 
2014-05-25 01:41:12 AM

Waldo Pepper: Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and ...


Yeah, and some of us get equally mad when the name on the rejected resume said "DeQuan" instead of "Daniel"

But it is difficult to know why someone was rejected from hiring in exact terms, which makes Affirmative Action a half-measure at best, and really prone to creating resentment in other groups.

I would love it our society was truly race-neutral, but it would need to be class-neutral first; and I have my suspicions that race-neutral really means race-ignorant anyway, but that's just my personal paranoia.
 
2014-05-25 01:41:26 AM

jso2897: poot_rootbeer: Waldo Pepper: poot_rootbeer: Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?

American


No, seriously.  What color are you?

I'm white, and that's relevant to everything that's happened to me in my life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY&feature=kp


now see I can't say that the color of my skin is relevant to everything that has happened to me in my life.  heck i even have a rare blood diseases that put me in a coma and tried to kill me a couple of times and wouldn't you know it. it does not have a higher rate for any one race. (okay a little lower for asians but i shared a room with a japanese guy for a couple of days who had the same thing so figure that in)

most events in my life my skin color has little to no bearing on, but i'm sure there has been times it has helped and some times the color of my skin hasn't helped
 
2014-05-25 01:42:39 AM
One of the most brilliant, informative articles I've ever read and still people argue with utterly stupid comments. It makes the writer's own point that it's not impracticality that stops us, it's something more existential. It's an unwillingness to admit the faults of our great republic. Which I think is sad, I think it's actually a lack of confidence in America, because I think we're big enough to overcome this.
 
2014-05-25 01:42:42 AM
White ancestors of Union soldiers should be paid reparations from blacks and southern whites for freeing the slaves.
 
2014-05-25 01:42:43 AM

ox45tallboy: Waldo Pepper: I can believe that blacks aren't treated fair in this country and deserve some form of a break but at the same time be mad if I was passed over for a job simply due to the company having to hire a minority.

But you wouldn't feel that bad if the minority person was more qualified than you.

Which they would be if they had access to the same opportunities you do.


how do you know they didn't have the same opportunities that i had?
 
2014-05-25 01:44:15 AM

Waldo Pepper: Go into Japanese neighborhoods, you don't see Negro stores. Go into China town, you don't see Negro stores. Go into Jew town, you don't see Negro stores. But come up here in black town and every kind of store is here but yours----MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)


Please, please, learn how to properly cite a quotation.

Better yet, express your views in your own words, rather than putting your intent into the words of men who died over 50 years ago.
 
2014-05-25 01:44:19 AM
There is no racism in this country.

So say a bunch of class-dominant white people.
 
2014-05-25 01:44:37 AM

Waldo Pepper: how do you know they didn't have the same opportunities that i had?


oh.  my. god.

Please.  PLEASE.  read the article.
 
2014-05-25 01:45:07 AM

funmonger: Fer chrissakes... it's not about you or some sins-of-the-father accounting, but you'd know that IF YOU READ THE BEAUTIFULLY-WRITTEN ARTICLE YOU ILLITERATE SHRIEKBAGS.


Nice touch.  Is this how people who can understand and appreciate this type of article act?  Then I say, no thank you, kind sir.  If overbearing judgmental sanctimonious pricks are the type attracted to this article's content, I must say, nay.  Nay I say.
 
2014-05-25 01:45:31 AM

Waldo Pepper: most events in my life my skin color has little to no bearing on, but i'm sure there has been times it has helped and some times the color of my skin hasn't helped


Why are you evading the question?
 
2014-05-25 01:45:41 AM

Waldo Pepper: garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.

he reason that most black business fail, is because they are selling a product that they bought from white man. They themselves have gone to the white man, to purchase something to resale to you. Everything that's in the Negro store is a resale, and he has to resale it at a price high enough to get his investment back. The black person that's in business is acting as a salesman for the white wholesaler, and the white producer. The real owner of merchandise that the black business man is selling, is the white man. He robs you when he sells it to you, and you have to turn around and rob your people in order to get your money back, and then you wonder why they won't come in your store. As black people we have to learn to produce something. We have to be producers as well as consumers, and then we can set the sale price at a low cost. If you produced the product that you sold, then you would be eliminating the middle man, and you could sell to your people at a low cost. Everything that leaves your pocket goes into the pocket of the white man. We are being robbed because we produce nothing of our own. Mr. Muhammad said that we must be producers as well as consumers. I don't care if you have a million dollars business, if you are not producing anything, then you are just a rich slave. I don't care how wealthy you are, if you are not producing you are just a slave for your master. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that it is better to be independent, than dependent---MALCOLM X (from hi ...


Those quotes to me speak to one of the problems today. Black Wealth right now is being generated in mostly the entertainment pursuits because that is one of the few areas that we can have complete agency over. Two of the more celebrated instances of black wealth, Oprah Winfrey and Ervin Johnson got their money to start with by being entertainers (yes I lump pro athletes in with entertainers).

It has been notoriously difficult for Blacks to generate wealth by other means because we have to start from zero. And then we have to fight with everyone else that might already have in-roads to the marketplace just because of where they started at.

Eventually we as a people will get there, it's just that we are starting from really far behind.
 
2014-05-25 01:46:44 AM

Waldo Pepper: MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)


You know, if you were to actually RTFA, you probably wouldn't be posting Malcolm X quotes which aren't really relevant to the subject. You might even post some that are such as:

Truth is on the side of the oppressed.
 
2014-05-25 01:48:58 AM

trappedspirit: Nice touch.  Is this how people who can understand and appreciate this type of article act?  Then I say, no thank you, kind sir.  If overbearing judgmental sanctimonious pricks are the type attracted to this article's content, I must say, nay.  Nay I say.


"I dunno what it is, but if he's fer it... I'm agin' it!!!"
 
2014-05-25 01:50:15 AM

Waldo Pepper: how do you know they didn't have the same opportunities that i had?


Because you're complaining about a minority getting a job that you believe yourself to be more qualified for, only on the basis of their race. What makes you more qualified?

Read the article.
 
2014-05-25 01:50:48 AM

ox45tallboy: Waldo Pepper: I can believe that blacks aren't treated fair in this country and deserve some form of a break but at the same time be mad if I was passed over for a job simply due to the company having to hire a minority.

But you wouldn't feel that bad if the minority person was more qualified than you.

Which they would be if they had access to the same opportunities you do.


but to answer your question. If someone is more qualified gets the job over me. no worries that is the right call by the employer. equal qualified and I lose out due to the employer having to fill a quota, that's no good. the less qualified person getting the job well then i'm pissed. 

I don't have any issues with employers hiring based on needs, you run a business in a metro area and you hire salespeople that fit the profile of your customers makes perfect sense. You are the state dmv and i walk in and 90% of the jobs are filled by minorities in a area where minorities only make up 25% of the local population. seems a bit off and wrong. 

I believe you hire the best person that fits the needs of the employer for that job.
 
2014-05-25 01:51:25 AM
It will never work out. Our brains are too puny.
 
2014-05-25 01:51:29 AM
Not sure if the point has already been made elsewhere in the thread, but this issue seems very much tied to our illustrious history of dicking over the poor. I'm not making any grand novel insight by linking our persistent history of denying black people opportunity to their present situation. However, if you really have a problem with the idea that any attempt to fix it is "white liberal guilt", look past the skin and think of it as a "how do we help the poor" type of problem. If we can manage to do that, it will positively affect the black poor community disproportionately to the white poor community, given the difference of the poverty rate of those races. That I think could be a type of "reparations".
 
2014-05-25 01:52:52 AM

Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


They are afraid, my kitteh.

I would ask this question, in the spirit of mediation and reconciliation, however:

Assuming that "reparations" is not meant in monetary terms, and dropping the lofty rhetoric: What exactly would "reparations" look like? What exactly is wanted here? And how will we know when we have achieved it?

And I would ask this of those advocating reparations also: How do we prevent this from becoming a quest for vengeance?

Having read that article, and it's an awesome article, I see a great deal that I already knew about the gross mistreatment, both intentional and unintentional, of blacks in America, from this nation's inception. I see very little that I didn't know. The truth is out there, even if it's been obscured or ignored. So what is desired, exactly? More acknowledgement of the facts? And if so, how and where and when? Reduction of the inequality imposed on blacks by fiat? That requires a realization that that same inequality was visited upon poor whites, at the same time, for the same reasons and by the same power structure (and if you don't know that, I recommend reading "Barn Burning" and "A Walk on the Wild Side" at your earliest convenience).

I would also warn that since the power structure is still intact, those seeking reparations realize that they are demanding recompense and understanding from the SAME POWER STRUCTURE that put them in that position in the first place. You are asking the wrongdoers to correct the wrongs while you are still in a position of weakness. This leads to cries for vengeance, not reconciliation. Both sides have to acknowledge there has been a wrong before a correction can be made, and so far, only one side believes there is a wrong that needs to be corrected (just flip through this thread to see if I am wrong).

Whites under the age of 50 don't believe that there is anything to fix. Whites making less than $30,000 per year will not listen to arguments like those presented in this article. Dispute resolution specialists will ask both sides: What do you want to achieve? Merely saying "let's study the problem" isn't good enough. What do you want to achieve? That is my question.
 
2014-05-25 01:53:33 AM

BlueDWarrior: Yeah, and some of us get equally mad when the name on the rejected resume said "DeQuan" instead of "Daniel"


Coates mentions it in passing, but the racism still inherent in hiring is both obvious and quantifiable. As I'm sure you know, a "black" name can prevent people from hiring a candidate.

In fact, they've studied this by sending out identical resumes to employers, one with a stereotypically "white" name like John, and one with a stereotypically black name. Even though the resumes are identical, hiring managers rate the resume from the black candidate worse, and are more likely to hire the white candidate.

This is a great example of some of the really f*cked up entrenched racism in America.

On an unrelated note....
Admins, thanks for greening this. When I submitted it I knows there would be both racist idiots and people who refused to read the article and wanted to just babble on about how their parents didn't own slaves. But there have also been dozens of comments about appreciating the article, and I think it may do more good than harm. Thank you.
 
2014-05-25 01:53:53 AM

Deep Contact: It will never work out. Our brains are too puny.


As evidenced by how many people stampeded directly this thread to post their insightful observations about slavery, welfare, and affirmative action.
 
2014-05-25 01:54:10 AM

ox45tallboy: Waldo Pepper: how do you know they didn't have the same opportunities that i had?

Because you're complaining about a minority getting a job that you believe yourself to be more qualified for, only on the basis of their race. What makes you more qualified?

Read the article.


i didn't complain i was just giving an example of what would make me upset with AA.  since you have no clue who i am or where/how I grew up you can't claim anything about "same opportunities"
 
2014-05-25 01:55:32 AM

Kittypie070: Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society.....It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.

Look, flawed as his argument is, and thanks BTW for pointing that out....it's at least a reasonabe attempt at a start.

And look at the part of your statement that I bolded. There's a step forward if I've ever seen one.

Add Fubini's and Lsherm's comments [among others] to that and we can actually get somewhere.


I'd like that, from the perspective of one lone white guy who can see some of his privileges even while probably missing seeing others and lacking some people think I should have. But it's a multi-way conversation, and nobody is going to be thrilled at the solutions because they will likely involve slaughtering a lot of sacred cows on all sides. Fubini has some excellent ideas for combatting the institutional parts, I will defer to him (her?) on that because I suspect they are somewhat wiser than me on the topic.

Another anecdote (because I can only really speak from my experience), of something that probably happens frequently and is likely usually mishandled. A couple of years ago, I handled routing and scheduling for a fairly major grocery warehouse. One week coming up on a holiday weekend, much like this one, a truck driver asked me on Thursday if there was any way possible he could be off that Saturday as he had a fishing trip to go on. I told him it was not likely, but I would see what I could do. He asked if I was refusing because he was black. I pointed at the posted vacation board, where people had selected their vacations at the beginning of the year, and showed him that of the four allowed off, three were black, but all had made their requests at vacation selection time. Of the five people already on the "leave me off if you can" list, four were black, and all five had requested the possibility of being off before him, listed in order of date of request. (I'm good at scheduling, but ten people off on a holiday weekend is not an easy task by any means). I then queried if he asked me that just because I was white. He looked confused for a moment, thought about it, and then apologized respectfully. I learned that being fair and always treating everyone with equal responsibility works, and he learned that not every negative decision affecting him was motivated by race. Incidentally, I managed to leave him off, as two people cancelled their plans and decided they wanted to work that weekend, but he was pleasantly surprised by that rather than automatically expecting it.

Teaching society that kind of lesson is going to take years. You don't take opportunities away from people, you try to open up more.
 
2014-05-25 01:55:57 AM

ox45tallboy: Waldo Pepper: MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)

You know, if you were to actually RTFA, you probably wouldn't be posting Malcolm X quotes which aren't really relevant to the subject. You might even post some that are such as:

Truth is on the side of the oppressed.


everything Malcolm X ever said will always have some relevance to the black race in America.
 
2014-05-25 01:59:01 AM

I Browse: Abox: Seriously?  There are people who think blacks have been given NO extra help ever?


Let me put it to you this way. Are you a football fan? If so, are you familiar with the concept of a "make up call"...? I'll paint a scenario for you:

We start the game and the black team is already down 35 points before the first kickoff. But okay, fine. We'll try for the miracle comeback. Then on the very first play from scrimmage...every player on the white team gang tackles our quarterback, breaks his arms, his legs, and severs his spine...then they do the exact same thing to our back up quarterbacks. The white team then scores another 49 unanswered points. But somewhere in the 3rd quarter, the white team realizes this has gotten completely out of hand. They start to feel bad for running up the score. So what do they do? They penalize themselves 15 yards on the ensuing kickoff.

And with that they say: "You're welcome. Now let's play some football and no more damn whining, ya hear!"


You realize there are businesses and schools that for decades have been bending over backward to promote diversity at every level even if it means hiring and promoting people just because they're minorities? That's not to say there aren't still obstacles but to simply ignore what's been done and continues to be done and to also ignore the large and influential segment of the population that has never stopped fighting for minority advancement invalidates whatever incoherent point you're trying to make.
 
2014-05-25 01:59:25 AM

Waldo Pepper: but to answer your question. If someone is more qualified gets the job over me. no worries that is the right call by the employer. equal qualified and I lose out due to the employer having to fill a quota, that's no good. the less qualified person getting the job well then i'm pissed.


What makes you more qualified? Why do you assume the minority person hired ahead of you is less qualified?

Waldo Pepper: You are the state dmv and i walk in and 90% of the jobs are filled by minorities in a area where minorities only make up 25% of the local population. seems a bit off and wrong.


Do you really believe that any type of governmental office has racial quotas stating 90% of employees must be minorities?

Is it at all possible that 90% of the people who applied for positions were minorities? Is it possible that these people were actually qualified for the job, and hired on their merits?

If you don't believe that all of the 90% could possibly be qualified for their jobs, then congratulations, you've hit on one of the major issues of the article.

Please read it.
 
2014-05-25 02:00:10 AM

Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Yeah, and kiddies in restaurants :D

You've got me there. I don't even remember that.

So I guess you win on that one?


Yeah, technically, but I ain't gonna strut my stuff about it.
 
2014-05-25 02:02:54 AM

BlueDWarrior: Those quotes to me speak to one of the problems today. Black Wealth right now is being generated in mostly the entertainment pursuits because that is one of the few areas that we can have complete agency over. Two of the more celebrated instances of black wealth, Oprah Winfrey and Ervin Johnson got their money to start with by being entertainers (yes I lump pro athletes in with entertainers).

It has been notoriously difficult for Blacks to generate wealth by other means because we have to start from zero. And then we have to fight with everyone else that might already have in-roads to the marketplace just because of where they started at.

Eventually we as a people will get there, it's just that we are starting from really far behind.


Why does every black person think that whites have in-roads to the marketplace because of where they started?  I will agree that those in lets us the term "Planter class" have the in-roads and that class isn't just white folks anymore.  Those who have the money and power want to keep it within their little group and regardless of the color of your skin it is a hard place to get in.
 
2014-05-25 02:05:06 AM
A few points aimed at nobody in particular:

1. If you have any real-life proposals for ameliorating structural racism, please share them.  But if you don't, if you only want a "conversation about race," and what you really want is affirmation, to feel good about yourself without doing any hard work, confirmation that you're one of the good guys, then I'd advise you to head off to the bathroom and literally masturbate.  You'll get more of an endorphin rush.

2. When you say "Ta-Nehisi Coates is such a good writer," "what a beautifully written article," etc., you're being unintentionally racist, like the people calling Obama "so articulate (for a black guy)."  You wouldn't say the same thing about an article written by a white guy, so stop patronizing Coates.

3. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about left and right.  For example, probably the single best thing we could do to ease structural racism - overhauling and improving public education - is considered almost verboten on the left. Conservatives, on the other hand, are too often obtuse ("racism ended in 2008") or cynically resigned ("we'll never improve things") to contribute constructively to a policy response.

If you care about making the country a better place, don't treat structural racism as a proxy for some other political/identity fight.  All that does is marginalize the issue and make it less likely to be addressed.
 
2014-05-25 02:06:15 AM

Rincewind53: Dusk-You-n-Me: Rincewind53: but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.

T-NC is one of the best writers of our time.

I agree. The article is filled with absolutely fabulous lines, phrasing that cuts to the heart of the issue. Just came across this one:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about "black pathology," the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America's relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer."

He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."


Does he acknowledge the many US soldiers who fought and died to end slavery?

Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Reparations for slavety is a stupid farking idea based on perhaps the largest collective appeal to emotion fallacy in modern race discussions.
 
2014-05-25 02:07:06 AM

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: My family didn't come here til around 1900 so don't blame me.

You're not to blame. But that's not the point. America is to blame. This article moves the discussion forward on we as a country atone for our racial sins -- not just of the past, but also the ones we are committing today.


If you're going that route, what of the British, French, and many African tribes?
 
2014-05-25 02:07:12 AM

Carousel Beast: Does he acknowledge the many US soldiers who fought and died to end slavery?

Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Reparations for slavety is a stupid farking idea based on perhaps the largest collective appeal to emotion fallacy in modern race discussions.


Then it's a good thing that isn't what the article is about.
 
2014-05-25 02:08:13 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.

What utter absolute nonsense. Go fark yourself you irresponsible douche.

Advocating reparations in the wake of decades of social policy transferring wealth from white to black (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant), or anything remotely approaching punishing people for the sins of their great grandparents would set race relations back decades if not more. It's the ultimate in "you're not helping"


As far as I can tell, all we have been doing is taking money out the general pot for everything we pay for through government in order to try and even out the current disparity between impoverished and not-impoverished communities.

Due to how we have defined poverty, we have not eliminated that ratio of impoverished. But we have done good work in raising the floor in general.

Of course due to demographics, most of the people who benefit from Welfare in general are white, but it's only black and brown welfare that's a problem apparently.

Let us not speak to the pipeline problem of why a lot of upper-class industries and professions are still disproportionately white.
 
2014-05-25 02:10:01 AM

ox45tallboy: Waldo Pepper: but to answer your question. If someone is more qualified gets the job over me. no worries that is the right call by the employer. equal qualified and I lose out due to the employer having to fill a quota, that's no good. the less qualified person getting the job well then i'm pissed.

What makes you more qualified? Why do you assume the minority person hired ahead of you is less qualified?

Waldo Pepper: You are the state dmv and i walk in and 90% of the jobs are filled by minorities in a area where minorities only make up 25% of the local population. seems a bit off and wrong.

Do you really believe that any type of governmental office has racial quotas stating 90% of employees must be minorities?

Is it at all possible that 90% of the people who applied for positions were minorities? Is it possible that these people were actually qualified for the job, and hired on their merits?

If you don't believe that all of the 90% could possibly be qualified for their jobs, then congratulations, you've hit on one of the major issues of the article.

Please read it.


okay excuse me for giving a embellished example to try to make my point. do you think that every minority that works for the DC government was as qualified for their job as a white person who was passed over. Do you think that every minority that works for the Post Office was a qualified as a white person who was passed over simply due to AA quotas. 

We all know it happens and the point I was trying and I guess failing to make was as much as I understand and even sort of agree that AA hirings were a good thing doesn't mean that I also can't think of how wrong it is to the non minority who is passed over.  it is quite possible to have conflicting thoughts on a subject
 
2014-05-25 02:10:02 AM

Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: Those quotes to me speak to one of the problems today. Black Wealth right now is being generated in mostly the entertainment pursuits because that is one of the few areas that we can have complete agency over. Two of the more celebrated instances of black wealth, Oprah Winfrey and Ervin Johnson got their money to start with by being entertainers (yes I lump pro athletes in with entertainers).

It has been notoriously difficult for Blacks to generate wealth by other means because we have to start from zero. And then we have to fight with everyone else that might already have in-roads to the marketplace just because of where they started at.

Eventually we as a people will get there, it's just that we are starting from really far behind.

Why does every black person think that whites have in-roads to the marketplace because of where they started?  I will agree that those in lets us the term "Planter class" have the in-roads and that class isn't just white folks anymore.  Those who have the money and power want to keep it within their little group and regardless of the color of your skin it is a hard place to get in.


Again, you are incorrect. This has been studied by actual scientists, not just using anecdotes. A black person with no criminal background has roughly the same chance of being hired as a white felon. The idea that black people get hired more than white people for the same job is patently false and demonstrably untrue.
 
2014-05-25 02:10:05 AM
I'll tell you a quick story:

My Dad:  Born in 1940, pure Russian parents, that ended up in East Germany after the revolution.  Escaped with the clothes on his back to Cleveland.  CLEVELAND, mind you.  Father was a PhD, but ended a hospital janitor.  In CLEVELAND.  After being arrested and given an opportunity to serve his jail time in the military, my Dad made a career out of the Navy.

My Mom, Born in 1932, the 10th of 12 kids to what ended up as a single mom in Massachusetts.  Racially, a Scots-Irish mutt with some dubious claims to native american heritage, and whatever seemed convenient to the company she was keeping.  "Oh, you're from Quebec?  My great-great grandfather was Quebecois!".

Me:  Third of three kids, lower-middle class.  High school was minority dominated (I went to the same HS as Plaxico Burress).  Paid my own way through college.

So, given this history, what do I personally owe black people?  Not a damned thing.  On the face of it, I had the same opportunities.  I grew up in integrated communities and had, quite literally, the same educational opportunities up until 12th grade.

From a societal perspective?  Oh, I owe a hell of a lot more than nothing, I can assure you of that.

Despite the
disrespect given to my paternal grandfather for his immigrant status, he was not denied access to the tidy house he owned in a stable neighborhood. My father was given the opportunity of a career in the place of a prison term - despite the fact that he could not speak English when he entered the military.

Had my grandfather been black, he would not have been granted the opportunity to gain financial independence.  Had my father been black, he would have started his adulthood in prison.  Had either of these been the case, my two elder siblings and I (not to mention my cousins) would have seriously different outcomes.

So yeah, it's not quite "white guilt" that I feel, but a sense of "there but for the fact of race, go I."
 
2014-05-25 02:10:33 AM

Waldo Pepper: everything Malcolm X ever said will always have some relevance to the black race in America.


That's like saying everything Nathan Bedford Forrest ever said will have some relevance to the white race in America.

Sure, some people agreed with everything he said. Many people thought he had some good points. Historically, you can look back on what he said and kind of understand where he was coming from. But that doesn't mean he defines his entire race.
 
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