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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 871
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11206 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-25 01:08:35 AM  
i apologize in advance to fark server admins for potentially crashing the machine that handles my ignore list
 
2014-05-25 01:08:46 AM  

Nemo's Brother: Why have blacks lagged so far behind Asians, the Irish, Latinos and every other single minority that was poorly mistreated at one point in time in our country?


That is the question.
It is answered in the article referred to here.
Please read it.
 
2014-05-25 01:09:24 AM  

Kittypie070: jso2897: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

Well, how YOU doin'?
[i18.photobucket.com image 160x120]

I'm fine because I took the time to read the farking article.


Me too. I think one or two other people did , also. No more than about a half dozen, though.
 
2014-05-25 01:11:15 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Black people should not look to whites for charity forever. What we lack is self help and self reliance. We are always wanting somebody to do something for us. As a race we are too envious, malicious and superficial, and because of this we keep ourselves back------MARCUS GARVEY (from his lecture at Collegiate Hall in Kingston Jamaica , given in 1915)


Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?
 
2014-05-25 01:12:13 AM  

moothemagiccow: Explain how. You already shot down reparations. I'm blackballing affirmative action. Go.


Since you're blackballing affirmative action, it would seem that you're asking me for a solution to a problem you don't seem to think exists.   Which leads me to think that you're not going to take any of my suggestions seriously.

Not that you should.  I'm no sociologist - I've only read on the evidence of the imbalance, rather than the possibilities of rectification.

Still,  I can think up a number of ways - re-written residential mortgage rules, a beefed up FHA, more teeth to equal education regulation.  If you gave me some time, I could really think up a slew of meaningful things which would have measurable impact.

This all would depend on folks like yourself admitting that there's a problem in the first place, an admission of which doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
 
2014-05-25 01:13:34 AM  
So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?
 
2014-05-25 01:13:51 AM  

BlueDWarrior: It's the black man's fault...
It's the black woman's fault...
It's the black child's fault...

Is that what we are really saying?

I honestly want to know...


I, for one, was not taught that when I was growing up. I don't believe it and I never have.
 
2014-05-25 01:13:51 AM  

Jackson Herring: i apologize in advance to fark server admins for potentially crashing the machine that handles my ignore list


Your mother has poor judgment and I never loved you
 
2014-05-25 01:14:24 AM  

The Southern Dandy: I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?


Quit being obtuse and read the damn article.

We ALL would benefit from unraveling the institutional discrimination that exists everywhere in the American system.  So we should ALL contribute towards its reduction.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:06 AM  
I only read parts I and II, because TFA is incredibly long, but what's described boils down to the rich people taking advantage of the poor people. That's a universal constant, regardless of culture and time. Poor whites were/are hit just as hard by unfair economic practices as were poor blacks, but blacks were hit all the harder because they disproportionately lacked/lack the education to understand a bad deal when they're presented with one and the connections to fight it once they realize what's going on. The exact same thing happens to poorly educated and poorly connected people of all races, but when you compound that on top of institutionalized racism you get a cultural death-spiral that results in the ghettos and communities described in TFA.

With respect to reparations:

1) The injustice inflicted on poor and black families is fundamentally a theft of opportunity. Any reparations should be about restoring opportunity: job training, scholarships, affirmative action where it will help, and even cash in the form of start-up grants for businesses operating in minority areas or owned by minorities are all acceptable, but just no-strings cash is stupid and morally reprehensible.

2) As I said above, the economic injustices are perpetrated by specific rich people onto poor people. Maximum justice would be to levy fines and taxes on those specific people, families, and institutions that economically benefited from abuse of minorities. For example, levy a use tax on the country club that was sized from southern blacks. In general, poor southern whites didn't benefit from slavery in the way that the landowners did, and in particular they didn't institutionalize the economic discrimination.

3) Enact legislation that requires states to equally fund education across all communities. Regardless of the how and why, the current state of affairs is that there are a lot of poor black communities that just can't afford to educate their kids as well as affluent communities. Tying school funding to the economic performance of local communities (which is the way it's largely done now) is a recipe for enduring inequality for all poor communities, whether they are predominantly black, or rural, or what have you. This isn't even a reparation, it's just universal fairness.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:29 AM  

Rincewind53: Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.

If you read the article, it's not about slavery reparations. In fact, it's primarily about reparations for the ongoing system of white supremacy enshrined in the government until extremely recently, like how even until less than 50 years ago, the Federal Government would not give secured loans to anyone living in ANY black neighborhood (redlining).

And "sundown towns", which were towns where blacks were not allowed on the streets after dark, existed until the 1980s. I was born less than five years after the last sundown down went away.

The Irish, the Chinese, and others had it bad. But they did not have it nearly as bad or for nearly as long, nor was the entire modern country of America built on centuries of their suffering. Our current cities are massively shaped by white supremacist  laws and policies from when your parents were born. It is hypocritical for Americans to claim the heritage of Valley Forge and the Declaration of Independence and then dismiss white supremacy as "just the past."


Sundown towns went away? People in Elwood Indiana would beg to differ.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:31 AM  

moothemagiccow: because no one knows what to do about it.


And that - right there -  you've nailed it.  This is exactly what the author is calling for.  A recognized study of the reality that we all know exists, so that we might come to some agreement around what to do about it.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:57 AM  

Pokey.Clyde: So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?


No.
 
2014-05-25 01:16:07 AM  

ox45tallboy: No Such Agency: vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]

Norman Rockwell could paint corny wholesome Americana with the best of them, but when he laid down the hammer, he farking laid it down.  That painting, as stylized and as intentionally string-pulling as it is, gives me the chills every single time.

I like this pic:

[www.eurweb.com image 850x566]

The woman Obama is talking to is Ruby Bridges, the little girl in the painting.

They're viewing the painting in the White House.


That's pretty cool. I like this one:
i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-25 01:16:23 AM  

Pokey.Clyde: So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?


Well, that almost nobody commenting about the article in the thread actually read it, having a coherent conversation about it HAS been a tad problematic.
 
2014-05-25 01:17:09 AM  

Kittypie070: eriously, that's how some of y'all sound.


LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!
 
2014-05-25 01:17:36 AM  
You know, even as a resident Fark conservative troll, nothing in that article can be dismissed out of hand.  In fact, it's a fantastic basis for actually having an adult conversation about racism in the US, the legacy of it, and how to treat the repercussions that still exist today.  We aren't going to get anywhere denying that there isn't a structural, institutional bias against black Americans that exists today in a barely less destructive form than has existed for the entire history of the country.  Everything from how schools are funded to how wealth is accumulated is designed to disproportionately affect black Americans negatively, and if we don't at least acknowledge that, then we're going to be stuck with bullshiat "solutions" that treat symptoms instead of fixing the problem.  Forced busing treated a symptom, and affirmative action treats a symptom, but there are very few good suggestions about solving the actual problem.

Think about it this way: an inner-city urban "yute" is statistically all but guaranteed to be farked for life.  You might reach 1-2% who manage to escape the cycle of poverty if you're lucky.  Outside of getting adopted at birth, that's by design.  They are born poor, go to underfunded schools because schools are primarily funded with local taxes, live in neighborhoods with no economic base beyond illegal trade, and that's all by design.  Those neighborhoods exist because that's where more privileged people decided they were going to live.

And he's even hitting the nail on the head about reparations.  He's not asking for direct payment to make up for past sins, he's asking to use public money to fundamentally change the system that churns out, for lack of a better term, legacy life failures.

All in all, it was a very well written article that at least outlines the HOW of institutional racism.
 
2014-05-25 01:17:57 AM  
I pay all my taxes. beyond that, I don't owe anyone anything. I'm not responsible for anything somebodies granpappie did.
 
2014-05-25 01:18:02 AM  
Abox: Seriously?  There are people who think blacks have been given NO extra help ever?


Let me put it to you this way. Are you a football fan? If so, are you familiar with the concept of a "make up call"...? I'll paint a scenario for you:

We start the game and the black team is already down 35 points before the first kickoff. But okay, fine. We'll try for the miracle comeback. Then on the very first play from scrimmage...every player on the white team gang tackles our quarterback, breaks his arms, his legs, and severs his spine...then they do the exact same thing to our back up quarterbacks. The white team then scores another 49 unanswered points. But somewhere in the 3rd quarter, the white team realizes this has gotten completely out of hand. They start to feel bad for running up the score. So what do they do? They penalize themselves 15 yards on the ensuing kickoff.

And with that they say: "You're welcome. Now let's play some football and no more damn whining, ya hear!"
 
2014-05-25 01:18:28 AM  

Waldo Pepper: shut up the Sharpton's/Jackson race baiting money machines.


There you go again.

Stop digging.
 
2014-05-25 01:19:02 AM  
look this article was waaay too long so i only read the title but give me a moment so i can explain how racism is over
 
2014-05-25 01:20:22 AM  

Brick-House: [www.weeklystandard.com image 640x467]


Let's throw the DoD budget on there, just for shiats and giggles.
 
2014-05-25 01:20:22 AM  

sprgrss: You'll be hard pressed to find many people who were responsible for instituting redlining still in any position of authority


If you're not going to read the article, at least read the goddamn Fark headline!
 
2014-05-25 01:22:01 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.

LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!


ZOMGs Babwa Wawa PETTED MEEEE!!!1!

You're nice :)
 
2014-05-25 01:23:21 AM  

Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and society as he does, merely by their loosely shared skin color, so why should we give him a pass for lumping multiple distinct "white" peoples, such as the Irish, Scots, German, English, and more into one general group to pass judgment upon for the actions of generations past of various groups of a far different society?

And I quote: This was 1947, eight years before Mississippi lynched Emmett Till and tossed his broken body into the Tallahatchie River. The whole state, according to Coates. Not the two men who did it, and the jury who let them go, the whole state, for and against civil rights, lynched Till.  Coates does this repeatedly, without any hint of irony or self-awareness, even as he brushes by North Lawndale's homicide rate as a horrible statistic, but not indicative of any internal problem but only to compare it to the national average as if it is somehow induced from outside.

It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.
 
2014-05-25 01:24:45 AM  
So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.
 
2014-05-25 01:25:48 AM  
I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.  I have work in the morning or I'd read it now.  Granted I won't likely agree with it.  I'll tell you why.

Yes I am (mostly) caucasian.  That doesn't mean quite what you think it means.  You read that and you ASSUME... my ancestors benefited from slave labor.  But they did not.  My ancestors - most of them also caucasians as it where - did not own slaves.  No they didn't own a single slave.  In fact, that is a fact in more caucasian families than most realize.

I'd like to assume myself that the reason they did not own any slaves had to do with good moral standing, but that is likely not the case at all.  The far more likely scenario is this - slaves where expensive and my ancestors where poor.  The vast overwhelming majority of slaves where owned by RICH ELITE FAMILIES - most of those families themselves descended of European royalty and nobility.

These families once had serfs but after serfdom ended they turned to slaves - a distinction with little difference mind you.  Both are terrible and blatantly barbaric systems where the few elite exploit the forced labor of other people - people who are "beneath their master/lord."  The master/lord gets rich through no effort of his own.  My ancestors from even longer back where likely serfs themselves.  Hey how about my reparations?  Not happening I know.  My ancestors being made to serve a master of the same skin color somehow isn't as bad... or something.

Anyhow these families descended of royalty and nobility primarily moved into the South and setup plantations.  The Southern mentality that says people always have what they deserve (and thus all the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor, while all the rich deserve to be rich).  In those day they where more fond of claiming it "God's will."  But that i where your Southern Conservative mentality comes from - as it continues to persist today.

These are the people who owned nearly all the slaves.  These are the people who immorally profited off slave labor.  For the most part their descendents are the elite rich of today.

That being the case, taxing all those of European heritage and giving the proceeds to those of African heritage is not justified.  Tax only the super-wealthy and use it to provide the descendants of slaves with reparations?  That I can agree with far more.

Now one other thing everyone should start to realize - there are people now who are making every attempt to reinstate de-facto serfdom, only they aren't calling it that now.  They use buzz words like "free market," "trickle down," etc and talk plenty of "Liberty" and "Freedom" but they really mean the "Freedom"  of the wealthy elite to exploit the poor more completely than they already do right now.

It is true that statistically those Americans of African descent are being held down - but primarily their race is NOT the prime factor anymore.  They continue to suffer from a legacy of poverty - one generation to the next.  The racism is a distraction from what is really holding them down... classism.  If you want to really help them - a lump some payout is a very poor way indeed.  All that money will be gone in no time.

What they really need is socio-economic reforms that benefit the poor.  Americans of African descent ARE disproportionately poor.  Policies that give poor people a chance will therefore disproportionately benefit Americans of African descent for purely statistical reasons.   But once you start putting all this together... you understand why the elites continue to promote racial tension.  The elite want all the fruits of this nation to themselves - and so to avoid paying us back what they owe us... they pit different races of poor people against each other.  I can't help but admit that their strategy is VERY effective.

Anyhow instead of a lump sum payout, what Americans of African descent actually need is a fair chance at being successful.  They don't have it right now.  Through better socio-economic reforms (notably among them things like minimum wage increases) - and especially through providing the poor better education and training - they will be able to climb up the ladder themselves.
 
2014-05-25 01:25:48 AM  
Nice to see an interesting and thoughtful article on Fark, though I wish I hadn't bothered to read the comments. For some reason, certain individuals seem to have a recurring issue where they confuse guilt ("White" or otherwise) with empathy, a quality they are apparently lacking.
 
2014-05-25 01:26:08 AM  

Pokey.Clyde: So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-05-25 01:26:29 AM  
The people who engaged in slavery are long dead, but the institutions that benefited from it, as well as post-slavery bigotry and racism, are still around. It is fairly easy to prove which specific institutions implemented post-slavery practices against the Africa-American populace. So I propose a "corporate reparations tax". For example, every bank (or whatever current bank who nows owns that bank) that participated in writing pays, say, 10% of its revenue into this tax. Higher institutions of learning that prevented blacks from being admitted or had restrictive quotas will be taxed at 10% of their endowment value. Take the money to fund the solutions mentioned in the article. Include church institutions that justified slavery as part of "God's plan" as well.

Details need to be ironed out but it is fair. This way we stop the individual "but my family never owned slaves" wailing, but target the real villains of post-slavery repression that has impacted African-American culture to this day.
 
2014-05-25 01:27:00 AM  

Lsherm: You know, even as a resident Fark conservative troll, nothing in that article can be dismissed out of hand.  In fact, it's a fantastic basis for actually having an adult conversation about racism in the US, the legacy of it, and how to treat the repercussions that still exist today.  We aren't going to get anywhere denying that there isn't a structural, institutional bias against black Americans that exists today in a barely less destructive form than has existed for the entire history of the country.  Everything from how schools are funded to how wealth is accumulated is designed to disproportionately affect black Americans negatively, and if we don't at least acknowledge that, then we're going to be stuck with bullshiat "solutions" that treat symptoms instead of fixing the problem.  Forced busing treated a symptom, and affirmative action treats a symptom, but there are very few good suggestions about solving the actual problem.

Think about it this way: an inner-city urban "yute" is statistically all but guaranteed to be farked for life.  You might reach 1-2% who manage to escape the cycle of poverty if you're lucky.  Outside of getting adopted at birth, that's by design.  They are born poor, go to underfunded schools because schools are primarily funded with local taxes, live in neighborhoods with no economic base beyond illegal trade, and that's all by design.  Those neighborhoods exist because that's where more privileged people decided they were going to live.

And he's even hitting the nail on the head about reparations.  He's not asking for direct payment to make up for past sins, he's asking to use public money to fundamentally change the system that churns out, for lack of a better term, legacy life failures.

All in all, it was a very well written article that at least outlines the HOW of institutional racism.


And guess what, the poor whites who live in trailer parks in Bumfark, Arkansas are just as royally screwed as the poor black that lives in the middle of South Central.

But we don't EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discuss how to rectify the institutional biases and outright denigration of those who are born in the delapitaed urban core or the equally delapitated rural town/exurb.

Basically our entire policy is focused on the lily white Suburbs, and centralized on the gated communities that the ones with true wealth sequester themselves in.

And that is the discussion the people who live in those places do not want us all to have, because that might mean the focus on society becomes a holistic one, instead of one only focused on what THEY want.

/ why yes I am making a class war argument
// the wealthy are winning and the suburbanites are their foot soldiers
/// Don't be surprised when bricks start flying through windows like they do about every 30-40 years...
 
2014-05-25 01:27:19 AM  

Kittypie070: Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.

LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!

ZOMGs Babwa Wawa PETTED MEEEE!!!1!

You're nice :)


Yeah, we can make nice on this stuff, but we'll always have our disagreement on the bureaucracy of NASA in the mid-2000s, won't we?
 
2014-05-25 01:27:25 AM  

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


That's why smart people see to it that those they have f**ked over in the past get made whole BEFORE they get into that position.
 
2014-05-25 01:28:06 AM  

bk3k: I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.  I have work in the morning or I'd read it now.  Granted I won't likely agree with it.  I'll tell you why.


There is ZERO reason to read your comment, then. Thanks for the warning!
 
2014-05-25 01:28:27 AM  
Nutter turned to those presumably fatherless babies: "Pull your pants up and buy a belt, because no one wants to see your underwear or the crack of your butt.") The thread is as old as black politics itself. It is also wrong. The kind of trenchant racism

No it's not racist. I do not want to see African-American underwear and buttcracks. And I also do not want to see Caucasian-American underwear and buttcracks.
 
2014-05-25 01:28:27 AM  

garkola: What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.


Pretty sure "Never Again" is a promise and a threat, not whining.
 
2014-05-25 01:28:53 AM  

Boojum2k: A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim.


This is why people need to RTFA.  For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.
 
2014-05-25 01:30:16 AM  

Babwa Wawa: This is why people need to RTFA. For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.


I read it. I agreed with a good portion of it. I picked apart the points I found lacking, and explained those as well.
 
2014-05-25 01:30:36 AM  

Jackson Herring: i apologize in advance to fark server admins for potentially crashing the machine that handles my ignore list


See?  We're not that different!  You add people to your ignore list and I add stupid ideas like reparations to mine.

We're all the same, really!
 
2014-05-25 01:30:57 AM  

Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and society a ...


The reason for that is that we are all in a general sense responsible for the society we create. A society that lets something like that happens is the fault, to some small degree, to all who are enfranchised or has agency within it.

The fault of specific actions lie with the specific actors, the fault for the conditions for those actions lie with all those who are in some part responsible for said conditions.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:36 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Boojum2k: A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim.

This is why people need to RTFA.  For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.


Give it up, Babs - nobody is going to read that article.Especially not the people who are really pissed off about it.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:39 AM  

Waldo Pepper: poot_rootbeer: Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?

American



No, seriously.  What color are you?

I'm white, and that's relevant to everything that's happened to me in my life.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:55 AM  

bk3k: I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.


I believe this thread will still be open once you read it tomorrow.  You may have a different perspective.  Give it some time, and try not to read it on your phone.
 
2014-05-25 01:32:32 AM  

Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society.....It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.


Look, flawed as his argument is, and thanks BTW for pointing that out....it's at least a reasonabe attempt at a start.

And look at the part of your statement that I bolded. There's a step forward if I've ever seen one.

Add Fubini's and Lsherm's comments [among others] to that and we can actually get somewhere.
 
2014-05-25 01:32:55 AM  
If you can prove that you, personally, were held as a slave in the United States prior to the emancipation proclaimation, you should recieve a million dollars.
 
2014-05-25 01:34:05 AM  

BlueDWarrior: And guess what, the poor whites who live in trailer parks in Bumfark, Arkansas are just as royally screwed as the poor black that lives in the middle of South Central.

But we don't EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discuss how to rectify the institutional biases and outright denigration of those who are born in the delapitaed urban core or the equally delapitated rural town/exurb.

Basically our entire policy is focused on the lily white Suburbs, and centralized on the gated communities that the ones with true wealth sequester themselves in.

And that is the discussion the people who live in those places do not want us all to have, because that might mean the focus on society becomes a holistic one, instead of one only focused on what THEY want.

/ why yes I am making a class war argument
// the wealthy are winning and the suburbanites are their foot soldiers
/// Don't be surprised when bricks start flying through windows like they do about every 30-40 years...


I think the general idea, even though the article doesn't explicitly mention it, is that if you can manage to rectify a lot of the issues that affect poor black Americans the solution will rectify a lot of the issues with poor white Americans as well.  The geographical areas of concern are a little different, since extremely poor whites tend to be from sparsely populated rural areas, whereas we've managed to concentrate poor blacks in dense urban areas, but the underlying issues are the same: it's by design.
 
2014-05-25 01:36:57 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Waldo Pepper: poot_rootbeer: Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?

American


No, seriously.  What color are you?

I'm white, and that's relevant to everything that's happened to me in my life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY&feature=kp
 
2014-05-25 01:36:58 AM  

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


It's not about revenge. It's about the system not screwing us in the backside every time we try to exercise our agency. Which has only really existed for blacks at large in the last generation and a half.

It's still viciously difficult for the typical Black family to amass wealth, which is what you need for a truly vibrant community, because a lot of us have to work double time to just to run in place.

You are only now starting to see truly wealthy black families in the last generation and a half or so. Of course this creates class dissent within the community (see the talk of the bourgeois black person, acting white).

But that is a discussion for a different article.
 
2014-05-25 01:38:11 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.

LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!

ZOMGs Babwa Wawa PETTED MEEEE!!!1!

You're nice :)


Yeah, we can make nice on this stuff, but we'll always have our disagreement on the bureaucracy of NASA in the mid-2000s, won't we?


Yeah, and kiddies in restaurants :D
 
2014-05-25 01:38:26 AM  

bk3k: : I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.

I believe this thread will still be open once you read it tomorrow.  You may have a different perspective.  Give it some time, and try not to read it on your phone.


I mean that phone thing not to be fussy or anything. I read it on my phone, and it was way too long and involved for that platform. To be honest, it begs for paper, but I know I'm not ordering any damned magazines.
 
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