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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 871
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11217 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-24 11:58:08 PM  

poot_rootbeer: phenn: I acknowledge that immigrants to the US (some under duress) have been treated monstrously. In particular, Africans, sold into slavery by their own brethren and countrymen. Also Irish, Asian, Latino and Jewish (to varying degrees).

That's very brave of you to take the stance that slavery is bad, while putting the blame squarely where it belongs: on other people of the same ethnicity as the people who were enslaved.


You might wish to read a history book there, kitty cat.
 
2014-05-25 12:01:19 AM  
Also Black people have really only been economically franchised for the last 30 years in the most broad of senses.

When almost everyone in a group starts from zero or negative wealth, you get persistent poverty.

Of the kind that makes idiots believe that group is fundamentally inferior.

Sure we celebrate the Magic Johnson s and the Oprahs of the world. And we use those aberrations to further beat upon Blacks in general while saying "They made it out why can't you"

I'm starting to believe that redlining was as destructive to building Black wealth as the Jim Crow laws in the South.
 
2014-05-25 12:01:30 AM  

phenn: You might wish to read a history book there, kitty cat.


You might wish to read a newspaper.

/or blog, or whatever the modern medium for chronicling contemporary events is
 
2014-05-25 12:01:44 AM  
"I'm not asking you as a white person to see yourself as a slaver, I'm asking you as an American, to see all the freedoms that you enjoy, to see how they are rooted in things that -- the country that you belong to condoned or actively participated in, in the past. And that covers everything from enslavement, to the era of lynching when we effectively decided that we weren't going to afford African-Americans the same level of protection of the law. It applies to share cropping, when we decided that we were gonna in whole swaths of the country allow people to be effectively re-enslaved, it applies to redlining when we decided that people that lived in certain places would get the largesse of the government, and other people would not. It applies today in terms of mass incarceration, when we decided we are going to be harder on crimes committed by certain people, or the same crime committed by certain people, and not be that hard when it's committed by other people. This is heritage. It's with us. It's with all of us. And it's not with you because you're white, it's with you because you're an American." Link
 
2014-05-25 12:03:07 AM  

Babwa Wawa: It's not the suck-the-wind-out-of-your-lungs work it has been built up to be, but it's a pretty methodical and well-organized piece of work.  Its greatest impact is that it thoroughly dismantles the fantasy that a lot of people live in.


I for one found it rather educational. I didn't know anything about the "on contract" buying, or the fact that it was actually the Federal government that set the districts eligible for loan assistance based on racial makeup of the neighborhood.
 
2014-05-25 12:03:13 AM  

OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


The discussion is about using tax dollars to narrow the social gap caused by racism and slavery.

Penance is a religious term about the forgiving of sin.
The only reason that you could use that term in this context is if you worship money.
 
2014-05-25 12:03:36 AM  

mark12A: Stop whining already. Slavery happened, can't change the past, get over it, move on. The more you obsess over it, the more it distracts you from getting on with your life.

There will be no reparations.


I knew there was a reason I farkied you as racist.
 
2014-05-25 12:04:45 AM  

Babwa Wawa: And for the record, I hardly see a workable solution to TFA's author's issues, as race-based reparations are difficult to implement and would be questionable in both justification and effect.

That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.


Why should I bother to read the article when you just told me it was largely a waste of time?
 
2014-05-25 12:05:05 AM  

Flying Lasagna Monster: "Sit down, my son.   We don't read most of the articles. Do you really know what that would entail ... if we were to read every article that was posted on Fark?


You're right of course.  But this is an article that people should read and comprehend - before trying to compose arguments against it.  It's been on the twitters and reddits for a while now.  Kind of surprising it's just hitting fark.
 
2014-05-25 12:05:26 AM  

neongoats: Yeah, I'm almost more liberal than the libbyest lib that ever libed and yeah, no thanks.

If anything just make confederate flag waving dickhead states in the south pay up, my ancestors were part of burning Atlanta to the ground and I'm sad they didn't burn harder and wider.


*Somebody* DNRTFA.
 
2014-05-25 12:06:24 AM  

BlueDWarrior: phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.

I would.

Just the first hundred comments should really inform everyone as to why black culture, in all respects, appears so aberrant.

Basically, it boils down to you never care about our needs as a supposedly fully enfranchised segment of the population, until we start burning buildings and looting in incoherent rage.

Remember the reaction to the Watts and other riots of the Sixties.
Remember the reaction to the South Central riots of 1992.
Remember the reaction to the looting post Katrina in New Orleans.

Now what was our level of care before then?
And in real terms... not very high.

So right now our collective mood is "You never cared about us, so why should we care what you think of us now. "

Brothers and Sisters are going to make money however they can because fark the system.

If that makes us look like a bunch of thugs and miscreants, so be it.

Why do you think we go through so much trouble to derive names that are non-standard? Because we just don't care about it anymore.


I appreciate your candor. You've given me things to think about. Gracias.
 
2014-05-25 12:09:23 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Flying Lasagna Monster: "Sit down, my son.   We don't read most of the articles. Do you really know what that would entail ... if we were to read every article that was posted on Fark?

You're right of course.  But this is an article that people should read and comprehend - before trying to compose arguments against it.  It's been on the twitters and reddits for a while now.  Kind of surprising it's just hitting fark.


I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.
 
2014-05-25 12:09:29 AM  

ox45tallboy: I for one found it rather educational. I didn't know anything about the "on contract" buying, or the fact that it was actually the Federal government that set the districts eligible for loan assistance based on racial makeup of the neighborhood.


I did too, and I had no idea.  Educational it was, but the historical bit was not surprising to me.

How he wrapped up the article should make anyone take notice.  The racially correlated stats on predatory real estate lending is eye-opening, and deserves investigation.
 
2014-05-25 12:09:43 AM  
i18.photobucket.com
 
2014-05-25 12:10:35 AM  

moothemagiccow: Why should I bother to read the article when you just told me it was largely a waste of time?


I know, right?  I don't want to think about difficult problems either.  I'll just go look at porn.
 
2014-05-25 12:11:47 AM  
How to fan the flames
 
2014-05-25 12:13:25 AM  
Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.
 
2014-05-25 12:15:24 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm an American.

And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.


So African-Americans will pay this reparation as well?  You know, the ones that enjoy the fruits of their ancestors slave labor?
 
2014-05-25 12:16:01 AM  

oh_please: I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.


I'm confused.  Should I be guilty over what happened in the 18th or 19th century?  Maybe the predatory sh*t that went down in the mid to late 20th century?  Or wait, should I want to do something to stop the predatory lending practices that go in right now, right here in the 21st century, in some place in the US that you presumably prefer to ignore?
 
2014-05-25 12:16:44 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Black people should not look to whites for charity forever. What we lack is self help and self reliance. We are always wanting somebody to do something for us. As a race we are too envious, malicious and superficial, and because of this we keep ourselves back------MARCUS GARVEY (from his lecture at Collegiate Hall in Kingston Jamaica , given in 1915)


You've been waiting for the crumbs to fall off the white man's table, but God is going to take the white man's bread away, and force you to do for self. The only reason you are following the white man, is because you are looking for crumbs, and when you find out he has no more crumbs or bread to give you. Then you will turn him loose like a hot potato------MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)


How about you read the article?
 
2014-05-25 12:17:03 AM  

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


It was supposed to help overcome institutional racism, but has proven to an ineffective remedy and creates problems in its own right.
 
2014-05-25 12:17:22 AM  
"Social Security when it was passed excluded African-Americans. Now it wasn't written that way. It was written so folks who either worked as farmhands or worked as help in the house, were excluded. What that had the effect of doing is excluding roughly 80% of African-Americans in the south, and something around 65% of African-Americans nationally. And what people will tell you is that got fixed. And it did get fixed.

But the problem is during those years people are injured. And that's how you get a gap. The fact that you injured those people during those years doesn't mean that people will catch up when you eventually fix it. It relates to us today, because the argument we make about Obamacare and the medicaid expansion is 'well, eventually market pressures will force those states in the south to catch up. They'll fix it.' But see in those intervening years, black folks who needed it most, much like black folks who needed it most during the era when we passed Social Security, will be injured. Again. And the fact that it gets fixed will not close the gap. So the questions is - why do we keep doing that? Why do we look at a map of where the medicaid expansion has gone through and where it hasn't, and why do we see this swath of the country that's directly identical to where we had plantation slavery?" Link
 
2014-05-25 12:17:53 AM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


Liberia
 
2014-05-25 12:17:56 AM  

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


Why, if it wasn't for affirmative action, there'd be no more racism.
 
2014-05-25 12:18:18 AM  

No Such Agency: vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]

Norman Rockwell could paint corny wholesome Americana with the best of them, but when he laid down the hammer, he farking laid it down.  That painting, as stylized and as intentionally string-pulling as it is, gives me the chills every single time.


I like this pic:

www.eurweb.com



The woman Obama is talking to is Ruby Bridges, the little girl in the painting.

They're viewing the painting in the White House.
 
2014-05-25 12:18:54 AM  
I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?
 
2014-05-25 12:20:11 AM  
Kyro:   I don't think we can buy our way out of this. This isn't a money problem. Sure the program-route has promise, but it's still attempting to apologize for beating the hell out of your kid by buying them an Xbox.

I'm personally of the opinion that we shouldn't be taking credit or blame for the actions of Americans 100+ years ago.


That there is a thoughtful response from someone who has read the piece.
 
2014-05-25 12:20:39 AM  

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


No... not in the traditional sense of the word.

Affirmative action and Welfare are post-scriptive measures to try and alleviate the after effects of institutionalized racism.

The fact we have these programs and Blacks are largely only treading water as a collective shows how awful our position was at the start of the Great Society and how disadvantaged it is today still.

To the point where people legitimately believe that Blacks as a group are d simply inferior humans and should be left to rot on the vine until they magically figure it out, whatever it is.

And my suspicion is that the it is this phrase: "Know your role, and shut your mouth."
 
2014-05-25 12:21:20 AM  
I see this thread was roughly as successful as I envisioned it'd be.

It was a good article. The stuff about how the housing market screwed over generations of blacks was particularly enlightening. I knew Chicago always had issues with integration, but I was unaware that there was an entire secondary market based entirely around forcing any black that wanted to buy a home to do so through incredibly unscrupulous predatory lenders.

I knew, when I read the article, that most people would probably just see the title and write it off as the libbiest lib dream that ever libbed, but it was insightful and informative. I expect I won't see another like it for some time.
 
2014-05-25 12:21:57 AM  

The Southern Dandy: I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?


I'm curious as to whether you've read the article?  Have you read all of it?  Looked up all the words you don't comprehend immediately?  Conferred with others as to the differing interpretations of context?

Who decides?
 
2014-05-25 12:23:21 AM  
The damned issue NEEDS SIMPLY TO BE DISCUSSED FIRST.

We are a powerful country built on a solid foundation.

BUT.

One of the foundation stones, at the very least, is ROTTEN through and through.

It MUST be examined openly. It must be brought to the light of day.

We have both great good and great ill-doing in our history.

Even the founders paused in dread for thought on the conflict between "all men are created equal" and slavery.

If they were here now, in this time, they would not be afraid to face it or discuss it, or examine it, or study its histories and its foot dragging aftermath.

THEY would not be afraid to admit that they had committed a grievous error.

They would not be aftraid to try to correct it.

What are we so afraid of? Our own history? Treating human beings like human beings?

The rotten foundation stone has to be pulled out.
 
2014-05-25 12:23:31 AM  
Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.
 
2014-05-25 12:24:01 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: Black people should not look to whites for charity forever. What we lack is self help and self reliance. We are always wanting somebody to do something for us. As a race we are too envious, malicious and superficial, and because of this we keep ourselves back------MARCUS GARVEY (from his lecture at Collegiate Hall in Kingston Jamaica , given in 1915)


You've been waiting for the crumbs to fall off the white man's table, but God is going to take the white man's bread away, and force you to do for self. The only reason you are following the white man, is because you are looking for crumbs, and when you find out he has no more crumbs or bread to give you. Then you will turn him loose like a hot potato------MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)

How about you read the article?

so you don't think these quotes from Malcolm X and Marcus Gravey to be important to the article?


The article is stating that due to institutional forces, the bootstraps model for advancement has largely been a crock of shiat for Blacks.

Problem today, it's now a crock for Just about everyone.
 
2014-05-25 12:24:19 AM  
"A neighborhood where African-Americans live cannot receive FHA funding. And that went beyond the FHA. Banks decided who they were going to lend money to based on FHA policy. You can look at a map of the city of Chicago and see where the loans were and where the loans weren't. And this is a practice that lasted on paper -- on paper -- into 1960, and likely much longer than that."
 
2014-05-25 12:25:43 AM  
www.weeklystandard.com
 
2014-05-25 12:26:35 AM  

Kittypie070: The damned issue NEEDS SIMPLY TO BE DISCUSSED FIRST.



No no no! You must first read the article!!

It's been mentioned here. Possibly more than once

/read the article
//farkers reading articles. Good one.
 
2014-05-25 12:26:40 AM  

Strolpol: I see this thread was roughly as successful as I envisioned it'd be.

It was a good article. The stuff about how the housing market screwed over generations of blacks was particularly enlightening. I knew Chicago always had issues with integration, but I was unaware that there was an entire secondary market based entirely around forcing any black that wanted to buy a home to do so through incredibly unscrupulous predatory lenders.

I knew, when I read the article, that most people would probably just see the title and write it off as the libbiest lib dream that ever libbed, but it was insightful and informative. I expect I won't see another like it for some time.


Even at this point in the thread, most of the posters make it obvious that they didn't RTFA at all.
They think somebody is talking about randomly writing checks to black folks.
 
2014-05-25 12:27:06 AM  

advex101: Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.


Its beyond blame at this point.

We just want an audit just so we can see just how screwed we've been as a people.

Maybe then we can consider the proper structure going forward.
 
2014-05-25 12:28:20 AM  

Kittypie070: The damned issue NEEDS SIMPLY TO BE DISCUSSED FIRST.

We are a powerful country built on a solid foundation.

BUT.

One of the foundation stones, at the very least, is ROTTEN through and through.

It MUST be examined openly. It must be brought to the light of day.

We have both great good and great ill-doing in our history.

Even the founders paused in dread for thought on the conflict between "all men are created equal" and slavery.

If they were here now, in this time, they would not be afraid to face it or discuss it, or examine it, or study its histories and its foot dragging aftermath.

THEY would not be afraid to admit that they had committed a grievous error.

They would not be aftraid to try to correct it.

What are we so afraid of? Our own history? Treating human beings like human beings?

The rotten foundation stone has to be pulled out.


Too many carriage returns.

i.imgflip.com
 
2014-05-25 12:29:03 AM  
This is a thread full of idiots.

R
T
F
A
 
2014-05-25 12:29:44 AM  
phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


Okay, I'll give it a shot.

As I read through the thread, I see that most people here are hung up on the slavery aspect of the story. That's understandable I guess, because the reparations arguments of the past have almost always centered on redress for slave labor. But the article (which I read yesterday) spends very little time on slavery. Hell, it doesn't even dwell on the Jim Crow south. Coates spends the vast majority of the article talking about how we were systematically, legally, and intentionally locked out of the American dream long after slavery was abolished, and he uses Chicago as a case study.

As a black person, do I want reparations? Nope. Not because I think it's a silly idea. But because I think it's the easy way out. I don't want the U.S. government writing a bunch of checks and then saying "Okay, we good now?" It completely oversimplifies the issue.

What the author is advocating in this article (if I read it correctly, and I believe I did) is not really financial reparations, but rather, acknowledgment and introspection. And on that point, I agree wholeheartedly. If America was ready to have an honest conversation about what has been done to black people in this country beyond slavery...then we wouldn't have people asking stupid questions like "Why can't blacks get their shiat together?" "Why can immigrants come here and succeed but blacks can't?" "Why are the blacks always complaining?"

Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:

www.leftycartoons.com
 
2014-05-25 12:30:20 AM  

rhiannon: /read the article
//farkers reading articles. Good one.


I think this one is just more frustrating than most because the article is all "this isn't just about slavery and it isn't about cutting checks to black people" and the posters that seem most upset keep saying "I never owned any slaves and how are we going to cut a check to every black person?" like they've come up with a brilliant counter.
 
2014-05-25 12:30:35 AM  

Brick-House:


Clearly the answer is to cut welfare spending to absolute minimal levels, the Black poeple will go get jobs.

Because they totally aren't working themselves into early graves as it stands...
 
2014-05-25 12:30:46 AM  

BlueDWarrior: advex101: Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.

Its beyond blame at this point.

We just want an audit just so we can see just how screwed we've been as a people.

Maybe then we can consider the proper structure going forward.


Why do you speak of yourself as though you represent a pure racial group?  It would make more sense to base your argument on economics than race.  And, you would find that you have more supporters.
 
2014-05-25 12:30:52 AM  
Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.  In fact the first slave owner in America was--wait for it!--black!  http://topconservativenews.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was - a-black-man/

What about Arabs involved in the slave trade?  Why aren't the race hustlers shaking them down?  (Maybe they're afraid that the Arabs will declare jihad?  Who knows....)

How about the fact that slavery still goes on in Africa even today?

You can take that white guilt, shine it up, turn it sideways (I think you know the rest)....

As far as I'm concerned, blacks have already gotten reparations.  It's known as Section 8, welfare, and various other kinds of freebies.

Victimhood is an industry nowadays, it seems....
 
2014-05-25 12:31:02 AM  
Yeah, even after 250 years of slavery we went straight on with being racially divided assholes. But not just to blacks.

But look up, my ebony opposites, the monied powers have come to rig the system to suck economic producivity from us white people as well.
 
2014-05-25 12:32:04 AM  

Babwa Wawa: oh_please: I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.

I'm confused.  Should I be guilty over what happened in the 18th or 19th century?  Maybe the predatory sh*t that went down in the mid to late 20th century?  Or wait, should I want to do something to stop the predatory lending practices that go in right now, right here in the 21st century, in some place in the US that you presumably prefer to ignore?


Keep patting those black people on the head. It'll make you feel superior, you racist.
 
2014-05-25 12:32:11 AM  

fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"


I'll say this as many times as it needs repeating: A house is something you live in, not something you invest in/gamble on. We apparently did not learn our lesson that houses are not casino chips from the last collapse. Bunch of farking...
 
2014-05-25 12:32:17 AM  

advex101: Why do you speak of yourself as though you represent a pure racial group?  It would make more sense to base your argument on economics than race.  And, you would find that you have more supporters.


Yet another point addressed in the article.
 
2014-05-25 12:33:18 AM  
OK. Find me someone who was a slave, find someone who owned slaves, and make them pay the first person reparations. If you can't do that, shut the fark up about it. If you weren't a slave, you aren't owed shiat for slavery. If you didn't own slaves, you don't owe anyone shiat for slavery.

Your crimes are yours, mine are mine. I will not pay for yours, and I will not ask you to pay for mine.
 
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