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(The Atlantic)   The case for reparations: "In America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife"   (theatlantic.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts General Court, American racism, Valley Forge, humans, servitude, good behaviour, John Conyers, Manhattan Institute  
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11254 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2014 at 10:58 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-22 02:57:47 PM  
It's a long article, but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.
 
2014-05-22 03:11:09 PM  

Rincewind53: but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.


T-NC is one of the best writers of our time.
 
2014-05-22 03:19:08 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Rincewind53: but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.

T-NC is one of the best writers of our time.


I agree. The article is filled with absolutely fabulous lines, phrasing that cuts to the heart of the issue. Just came across this one:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about "black pathology," the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America's relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer."

He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."
 
2014-05-22 03:22:43 PM  
Wow.

I'm only a third of the way through, but what a spectacular read.

I'll have to finish later.
 
2014-05-22 03:29:04 PM  
Also, Link
 
2014-05-22 03:35:51 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-22 03:37:56 PM  

violentsalvation: [i.imgur.com image 380x285]


i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-22 03:38:33 PM  
tl;dr: black writer wants welfare

/I should catch a few with that.
 
2014-05-22 03:54:23 PM  

Rincewind53: violentsalvation: [i.imgur.com image 380x285]

[i.imgur.com image 500x258]


I'm reading it, it's just long and I can't give it my undivided attention right now.
 
2014-05-22 07:04:25 PM  
Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?
 
2014-05-23 01:31:05 AM  
Rincewind53 finally had the time to finish the last half (long day). If this:

In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number-$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book-could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two. Today Charles Ogletree, the Harvard Law School professor, argues for something broader: a program of job training and public works that takes racial justice as its mission but includes the poor of all races.

plus ending the drug war and completely reworking the criminal justice system can be called reparations than I'm all for it. Of course I don't expect that wealth gap to instantly close either, it will take generations to undo. Pragmatism.
 
2014-05-23 08:31:22 AM  

itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?


You might want to go back to high school history class and re-read the chapter covering 1947-1948.
 
2014-05-23 08:45:18 AM  
So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.
 
2014-05-23 10:10:42 AM  

violentsalvation: Rincewind53 finally had the time to finish the last half (long day). If this:

In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number-$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book-could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two. Today Charles Ogletree, the Harvard Law School professor, argues for something broader: a program of job training and public works that takes racial justice as its mission but includes the poor of all races.

plus ending the drug war and completely reworking the criminal justice system can be called reparations than I'm all for it. Of course I don't expect that wealth gap to instantly close either, it will take generations to undo. Pragmatism.


I agree. Glad you liked the article!
 
2014-05-23 10:15:46 AM  

Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.


If you read the article, it's not about slavery reparations. In fact, it's primarily about reparations for the ongoing system of white supremacy enshrined in the government until extremely recently, like how even until less than 50 years ago, the Federal Government would not give secured loans to anyone living in ANY black neighborhood (redlining).

And "sundown towns", which were towns where blacks were not allowed on the streets after dark, existed until the 1980s. I was born less than five years after the last sundown down went away.

The Irish, the Chinese, and others had it bad. But they did not have it nearly as bad or for nearly as long, nor was the entire modern country of America built on centuries of their suffering. Our current cities are massively shaped by white supremacist  laws and policies from when your parents were born. It is hypocritical for Americans to claim the heritage of Valley Forge and the Declaration of Independence and then dismiss white supremacy as "just the past."
 
2014-05-23 12:59:45 PM  

Rincewind53: If you read the article, it's not about slavery reparations.


I read it, and I realize. It just doesn't read as well to cite every example he provided.

But that doesn't really change my opinion that I don't think we can buy our way out of this. This isn't a money problem. Sure the program-route has promise, but it's still attempting to apologize for beating the hell out of your kid by buying them an Xbox.

Rincewind53: It is hypocritical for Americans to claim the heritage of Valley Forge and the Declaration of Independence and then dismiss white supremacy as "just the past."


That I'll give you. I'm personally of the opinion that we shouldn't be taking credit or blame for the actions of Americans 100+ years ago.
 
2014-05-23 10:17:58 PM  
The next day, I stationed myself by the side of the road, along which the slaves, amounting to three hundred and fifty, were to pass. The purchaser of my wife was a Methodist minister, who was about starting for North Carolina. Pretty soon five waggon-loads of little children passed, and looking at the foremost one, what should I see but a little child, pointing its tiny hand towards me, exclaiming, "There's my father; I knew he would come and bid me good-bye." It was my eldest child! Soon the gang approached in which my wife was chained. I looked, and beheld her familiar face; but O, reader, that glance of agony! may God spare me ever again enduring the excruciating horror of that moment! She passed, and came near to where I stood. I seized hold of her hand, intending to bid her farewell; but words failed me; the gift of utterance had fled, and I remained speechless. I followed her for some distance, with her hand grasped in mine, as if to save her from her fate, but I could not speak, and I was obliged to turn away in silence.
 
2014-05-23 11:56:16 PM  

Rincewind53: And "sundown towns", which were towns where blacks were not allowed on the streets after dark, existed until the 1980s. I was born less than five years after the last sundown down went away.


The sign was still there at the city limits of Cullman, AL in 1998. Nineteen - F*cking - Ninety - Eight. I saw it with my own eyes.

If I was half the man I am now I would have taken it down myself, but I didn't live there and had no idea what I might have started.

Last year, two counties away, there was a "religious revival" ending with a "Christian Cross Burning."

But at least the sign is gone now, so I guess that's something.
 
2014-05-24 11:05:13 PM  

itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?


...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?
 
2014-05-24 11:09:33 PM  
Yeah, money heals all wounds.
 
2014-05-24 11:09:41 PM  
A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"
 
2014-05-24 11:10:20 PM  
I agree that it's a well-written article, but I disagree that it's a good argument in favor of reparations.

The actual logos of the article boils down to assertion with a side of ad hominem, with a disconnected conclusion.  Nothing really convincing in there as far as reparations actually potentially effectively addressing any kind of actual extant problem.

// Historically, it's taken disenfranchised populations a generations or perhaps two to go from legally granted equal footing to having actual economic equal footing and enfranchisement.  We've seen it with women, the Irish, etc.  The only historical example of reparations for anything we really have is the founding of Israel, and that's... not really a strong argument in  favor.  Maybe a good argument  against...
 
2014-05-24 11:10:32 PM  
40 acres and a mule, Jack.
 
2014-05-24 11:11:07 PM  

Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check?


Yeah, see that's how I know you didn't read the article.

Reparations don't need to take the form of direct payment to the victims.  Further, the author makes the point that slavery is not the only wrong committed against blacks in our society, and wronged blacks are very much still alive.

Read the article, give it a think, and come back with some thoughts, you know, about the farking article.

/white guy
 
2014-05-24 11:11:21 PM  
Can't read the article at the moment, but basically it states that the African-Anerican part of the 99% are getting screwed ovee even more so than the rest?

I believe it.
 
2014-05-24 11:11:39 PM  
Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.
 
2014-05-24 11:12:06 PM  
I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.
 
2014-05-24 11:12:27 PM  
Technically, bleeding is part of the healing process.
 
2014-05-24 11:12:44 PM  
Barack Obama would pay reparations to himself?
 
2014-05-24 11:13:02 PM  

DubtodaIll: Yeah, money heals all wounds.


That's false.  In the same sense that "money can't heal any wounds" is false.
 
2014-05-24 11:13:58 PM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.


Another person commenting on the article who can't be bothered to read it.
 
2014-05-24 11:14:12 PM  
Obama should use his executive powers to give reparations to everyone who isn't white and doesn't have a penis.
 
2014-05-24 11:14:43 PM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


An entire country. See "Liberia".
 
2014-05-24 11:15:19 PM  
fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"


Neighbor, please.
 
2014-05-24 11:15:24 PM  

Flying Lasagna Monster: Barack Obama would pay reparations to himself?


Ah, yes.  Directly addressed in the article.

I'm sensing a trend here.  People don't want to sit down and read something that can't be consumed in less than 60 seconds, yet feel compelled to offer an opinion.
 
2014-05-24 11:16:17 PM  

vernonFL: 40 acres and a mule, Jack.


Sometime around 1965 the Democrats figured out that you only have to promise them that and 90% of them will vote for you whether they ever get it or not.
 
2014-05-24 11:16:26 PM  
Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.
 
2014-05-24 11:16:36 PM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.


Sure; but it seems that a disproportionate number of blacks are poor compared to whites.  People like Robert Moses didn't help the cause; it was the likes of him that rounded up poorer blacks in neighborhoods like Harlem, etc.  They had a big special on this on PBS...one of those narrated series that discussed it. Wish I could remember the name of it.

Probably goes hand-in-hand with that whole "redlining" thing in TFA.
 
2014-05-24 11:17:06 PM  
Yeah, I'm almost more liberal than the libbyest lib that ever libed and yeah, no thanks.

If anything just make confederate flag waving dickhead states in the south pay up, my ancestors were part of burning Atlanta to the ground and I'm sad they didn't burn harder and wider.
 
2014-05-24 11:17:28 PM  
His interview about this article on Moyers is really good. I recommend it, especially if you're critical of this essay. Link
 
2014-05-24 11:17:48 PM  

Yogimus: Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.


Again, RTFA. Oppression against blacks did not stop in 1865. It continues to this day.
 
2014-05-24 11:17:53 PM  

Babwa Wawa: DubtodaIll: Yeah, money heals all wounds.

That's false.  In the same sense that "money can't heal any wounds" is false.


I forgot to use a sarcastrophe there. Obviously money can only buy things. The entire argument for reparations does not hold water. It will not make anyone whole. You think more handouts is going to do anything to improve the plight of black people in America? The only way to success is through the achievements of your own work and effort. Guilting someone into giving you things is the way con men make their money.
 
2014-05-24 11:18:25 PM  

Jim_Callahan: // Historically, it's taken disenfranchised populations a generations or perhaps two to go from legally granted equal footing to having actual economic equal footing and enfranchisement. We've seen it with women, the Irish, etc. The only historical example of reparations for anything we really have is the founding of Israel, and that's... not really a strong argument in favor. Maybe a good argument against..


Um.. you do know the point of the article is that it points out that the disenfranchisement continues to this day? point.
 
2014-05-24 11:18:39 PM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.


As far as conservatives are concerned, black people and poor people are one and the same.
 
2014-05-24 11:18:45 PM  
And for the record, I hardly see a workable solution to TFA's author's issues, as race-based reparations are difficult to implement and would be questionable in both justification and effect.

That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.
 
2014-05-24 11:19:21 PM  
My family didn't come here til around 1900 so don't blame me.
 
2014-05-24 11:20:10 PM  

DubtodaIll: forgot to use a sarcastrophe there. Obviously money can only buy things. The entire argument for reparations does not hold water. It will not make anyone whole. You think more handouts is going to do anything to improve the plight of black people in America? The only way to success is through the achievements of your own work and effort. Guilting someone into giving you things is the way con men make their money.


Yah, yah, yuh.  You didn't read the farking article did you?

Please to explain where IN THE F*CKING ARTICLE HE PROPOSES HANDOUTS.
 
2014-05-24 11:20:25 PM  

Babwa Wawa: People don't want to sit down and read something that can't be consumed in less than 60 seconds, yet feel compelled to offer an opinion.


Well, in their defense, I've written book reports on shorter Steinbeck novels.
 
2014-05-24 11:21:17 PM  

vernonFL: Yogimus: Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.

Again, RTFA. Oppression against blacks did not stop in 1865. It continues to this day.


So does oppression against chinese, whites, jews, mexicans, etc... What makes one group a sacred cow, while the others consistently succeed?
 
2014-05-24 11:21:26 PM  

Abox: My family didn't come here til around 1900 so don't blame me.


You're not to blame. But that's not the point. America is to blame. This article moves the discussion forward on we as a country atone for our racial sins -- not just of the past, but also the ones we are committing today.
 
2014-05-24 11:21:58 PM  

Babwa Wawa: DubtodaIll: forgot to use a sarcastrophe there. Obviously money can only buy things. The entire argument for reparations does not hold water. It will not make anyone whole. You think more handouts is going to do anything to improve the plight of black people in America? The only way to success is through the achievements of your own work and effort. Guilting someone into giving you things is the way con men make their money.

Yah, yah, yuh.  You didn't read the farking article did you?

Please to explain where IN THE F*CKING ARTICLE HE PROPOSES HANDOUTS.


Reparations are handouts.
 
2014-05-24 11:22:08 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.

As far as conservatives are concerned, black people and poor people are one and the same.


With this in mind let's have the "photo ID needed to vote" discussion and see where that goes.
 
2014-05-24 11:23:04 PM  
www.normanadams.org


Freeloading blacks want handouts. MY family never owned slaves!
 
2014-05-24 11:23:12 PM  

cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.


So if I'm against reparations I should be put on a plane and flown back to precisely where I'm currently residing?  That's a waste of money.
 
2014-05-24 11:23:27 PM  

DubtodaIll: Reparations are handouts.


Correction:  Reparations CAN be handouts.  You lack imagination.

Also, you lack the ability to READ THE F*CKING ARTICLE.
 
2014-05-24 11:23:32 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: My family didn't come here til around 1900 so don't blame me.

You're not to blame. But that's not the point. America is to blame. This article moves the discussion forward on we as a country atone for our racial sins -- not just of the past, but also the ones we are committing today.


I'm not racially sinning today either so leave me out of it.
 
2014-05-24 11:23:51 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: This article moves the discussion forward on we as a country atone for our racial sins -- not just of the past, but also the ones we are committing today.


Who's "we," crazy cracker?
 
2014-05-24 11:24:13 PM  
I blame Germany and how it handled post WWII guilt,  Handing out money to whoever asked.
Bad things happen.  No group of former slaves in history got reparations.  It's not happening here.
 
2014-05-24 11:24:18 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
Reparations were paid 150 years ago, Quit yer whining.
 
2014-05-24 11:24:20 PM  

Abox: I'm not racially sinning today either so leave me out of it.


For the second time, it's not about you. It's about America. Jesus christ.
 
2014-05-24 11:25:10 PM  

neongoats: Yeah, I'm almost more liberal than the libbyest lib that ever libed and yeah, no thanks.

If anything just make confederate flag waving dickhead states in the south pay up, my ancestors were part of burning Atlanta to the ground and I'm sad they didn't burn harder and wider.


What's hilarious (if you want to call it that) is that with Booker T. Washington....the "T" stands for the name of part of my family.  So......yeah.  :/

/we also have a county named for us in the South....go, us! :P
 
2014-05-24 11:25:31 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm not racially sinning today either so leave me out of it.

For the second time, it's not about you. It's about America. Jesus christ.


I'm an American.
 
2014-05-24 11:25:32 PM  
Is this sponsored by Nike and Beats headphones? Because that's where the money will go.
 
2014-05-24 11:25:35 PM  

Yogimus: So does oppression against chinese, whites, jews, mexicans, etc... What makes one group a sacred cow, while the others consistently succeed?


I wouldn't say that Chinese and Mexicans consistently succeed. In fact, a lot of Chinese and Mexicans still work in low class slave labor type jobs.
 
2014-05-24 11:26:19 PM  
Well, they should start with the original slavers who sold their ancestors to the highest bidder.

But realistically, they should be good Christians and just forgive and forget. You don't see Asians walking around complaining about the legacy of slavery; it's counterproductive.

Plus, you're ceding power to the ancestors of the people who enslaved your ancestors, so you're being enslaved twice.
 
2014-05-24 11:26:30 PM  
Well duh, it's the Chinese that are zerglings.
 
2014-05-24 11:26:32 PM  

cabbyman: Bith Set Me Up: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Sounds more like a problem with the decline of social mobility in the US than with racism. The poor in the US remain poor, doesn't matter if you're black or white.

As far as conservatives are concerned, black people and poor people are one and the same.

With this in mind let's have the "photo ID needed to vote" discussion and see where that goes.


The problem is both

Despite the rhetoric, the system in effect has disdain for the poor, and outright malice for Blacks.

On a related vein, how many times have we heard that blacks need to do like other minorities and abandon their culture, or at least the parts that can't be exploited and sold to white suburbanites...
 
2014-05-24 11:27:04 PM  

xanadian: neongoats: Yeah, I'm almost more liberal than the libbyest lib that ever libed and yeah, no thanks.

If anything just make confederate flag waving dickhead states in the south pay up, my ancestors were part of burning Atlanta to the ground and I'm sad they didn't burn harder and wider.

What's hilarious (if you want to call it that) is that with Booker T. Washington....the "T" stands for the name of part of my family.  So......yeah.  :/

/we also have a county named for us in the South....go, us! :P


Heh, I went to Booker T Washington high school(in the south, sorta, Florida, don't live in crazy state anymore)
 
2014-05-24 11:27:11 PM  
Man, this is the most "read the article" dense thread I've seen in a long long time. Fark, what happened to you?
 
2014-05-24 11:27:13 PM  
How do we determine who gets a check and for how much?  DNA tests?  Do we go by the shade of the skin?  Do albino African-Americans get nothing?  Tough luck for them I guess?
Do biracial people get a half a check?  Children of biracial get a quarter?
How do we determine who pays the money?  Is it only whites that pay? How much?  Poor people pay as much as rich people?
Are people who made something of themselves and succeeded in life because they believed themselves to be an individual and not a drone of some hive or group getting a check?
Are we giving rich people like Will Smith or Magic Johnson a check?
What about the blacks that immigrated here recently from a country that no American held a slave ever?  What is giving them money reparations for?
Are we making blacks that immigrated here recently from a country where blacks enslaved others and sold them to whitey pay?  How much is their portion?
 
2014-05-24 11:27:16 PM  

vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]


Freeloading blacks want handouts. MY family never owned slaves!


Isn't that something. Just to go to school.

....sigh....
 
2014-05-24 11:27:36 PM  

Babwa Wawa: DubtodaIll: Reparations are handouts.

Correction:  Reparations CAN be handouts.  You lack imagination.

Also, you lack the ability to READ THE F*CKING ARTICLE.


I did read it. It doesn't change the fact that any concessions given over the past come from those in power to give those concessions. I don't see how that help anyone achieve greatness or success. It is conceding that you are unable to make yourself happy on your own and that you need the help of those in power to accomplish that.
 
2014-05-24 11:28:24 PM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


Does Liberia count? ( piss-poor "compensation" for slavery, IMHO)
 
2014-05-24 11:28:32 PM  

Babwa Wawa: That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.


I think that's what's raising so much controversy - in order to gauge what is needed to make something whole, you must start with acknowledging what damage has been done.

It would be a huuuuuuge thing for America to at least acknowledge the institutionalized racism in its public policy for its entire history.
 
2014-05-24 11:29:40 PM  
Many of my clients are black folks who are making money hand over fist, and don't want to be patted on the head.
 
2014-05-24 11:29:47 PM  
Haven't read the article yet. How about we end the war on drugs and stop giving breaks for certain businesses. Racism stops when we stop seeing race.
 
2014-05-24 11:30:17 PM  

vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]


Norman Rockwell could paint corny wholesome Americana with the best of them, but when he laid down the hammer, he farking laid it down.  That painting, as stylized and as intentionally string-pulling as it is, gives me the chills every single time.
 
2014-05-24 11:30:23 PM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


Liberia?

Also...you do realize I wrote "Jews" and you're the second person to equate that with Zionists and Israelis? Are you thinking the implications through?
 
2014-05-24 11:30:24 PM  

lizaardvark: IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?

An entire country. See "Liberia".


How's that workin' out for them?
 
2014-05-24 11:30:39 PM  
In America there is a strange and powerful belief that people whose ancestors may or may not have ever stabbed anybody owe money to the descendants people who got stabbed, whether or not said descendants were ever stabbed themselves.
 
2014-05-24 11:31:27 PM  
Any person who was enslaved should be awarded restitution from the person who violated his rights.

Does anyone here know anyone like that?
 
2014-05-24 11:31:30 PM  
Reparation was paid with the blood of all the men who died on the battle field to end slavery in this country.
 
2014-05-24 11:31:36 PM  

Abox: I'm an American.


And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.
 
2014-05-24 11:32:50 PM  
<yawn>   Failure to accept responsibility for the failings of the black community by the black community gets tiresome......Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left, it's important to remember that they farkng left....If a large percentage of the African American community offered to leave the country and never return, they'd get a bunch of cash/shiat from White folks....
 
2014-05-24 11:33:30 PM  
Long live the original sin of white liberal guilt. Self-flagellation is fun to watch.
 
2014-05-24 11:33:35 PM  

DubtodaIll: did read it. It doesn't change the fact that any concessions given over the past come from those in power to give those concessions. I don't see how that help anyone achieve greatness or success. It is conceding that you are unable to make yourself happy on your own and that you need the help of those in power to accomplish that.


Well, I'm not going to argue that you didn't read it, then.  I will argue that you're choosing to ignore it.  At no point does he call for direct payments, or anything else in your strawman argument.
 
2014-05-24 11:33:44 PM  
Stop whining already. Slavery happened, can't change the past, get over it, move on. The more you obsess over it, the more it distracts you from getting on with your life.

There will be no reparations.
 
2014-05-24 11:33:45 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Ah, yes. Directly addressed in the article.

I'm sensing a trend here. People don't want to sit down and read something that can't be consumed in less than 60 seconds, yet feel compelled to offer an opinion.


www.american-buddha.com

"Sit down, my son.   We don't read most of the articles. Do you really know what that would entail ... if we were to read every article that was posted on Fark?
 
2014-05-24 11:34:39 PM  
Your ancestors where mean to my ancestors, so now you give me money.
 
2014-05-24 11:35:29 PM  
You could do a soft reparation system with the following policies:

Expanded food stamps program
Increased money for public schools
Increased taxation on property (guess who doesn't have property post 2008 sub-prime crisis)
Subsidies to labor bargaining power through strengthening the legal position of unions (mostly make them easier to form)
More direct hiring by government with an eye towards poorer black ladies (notice who works at the DMV and social security offices)
Rebuild affirmative action through the nominally racially neutral standard of poverty (which in this country is obviously not racially neutral)
Weaken anti drug laws and start commuting sentences in accordance with reduced penalties
 
2014-05-24 11:35:29 PM  
Coates raises a few good points (that racism did not end in 1865/1964/2008), but his overall argument is so weak that it belongs on Slate.

The idea of group-based punishments/rewards, instead of individually tailored justice, is contrary to everything our nation aspires to.  It amounts to giving up on liberalism.  "Well, we gave color-blind society a shot, but we're too innately racist to ever do any better.  Might as start the war for spoils."

If Coates wants to bend society towards that illiberal direction, he will be unpleasantly surprised to discover that other ethnic groups also have grievances, which they feel deserve redress every much as Coates feels anti-black racism deserves redress.  If that game is played, black people will end up doing even worse than they presently are, because they'll be outvoted.
 
2014-05-24 11:35:41 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm an American.

And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.


Exactly. We can't fix jack shiat until we admit that there's a farking problem, because nothing gets fixed if it can't even be identified as a problem. And look around--there's a big problem that still isn't fixed, and it's starting to fall backwards.
 
2014-05-24 11:35:47 PM  
I would be very concerned about that if I was stabbing any black people.
 
2014-05-24 11:36:23 PM  

Phinn: Any person who was enslaved should be awarded restitution from the person who violated his rights.

Does anyone here know anyone like that?


I'll take that a step further.  While I don't believe any of my American ancestors owned slaves, I can't say for certain.  So I will personally give $1000 to anyone who was held as a slave by on of my ancestors.  I do not think anyone should be punished for "sins of their father", but I'm willing to extend an olive branch here.
 
2014-05-24 11:36:32 PM  

Rincewind53: He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."


If that's a "powerful point" then the article must be pretty weak. Why should someone (like me) who comes from post-slavery immigrants accept responsibility? I had nothing to do with it. And, should the descendants of black slave-owners pay restitution? What about those who had some ancestors who were slaves and some who were slave owners... should they pay themselves? Heck, let's just tax straight, white males (to cover gender and sexual orientation reparations while we're at it) and call it a day.
 
2014-05-24 11:37:16 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm an American.

And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.


Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.
 
2014-05-24 11:37:18 PM  
Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.
 
2014-05-24 11:37:30 PM  
Wrong last link, here is the Moyers interview. Link

Everyone in here who is talking about slavery, or "my family didn't own slaves" or money transfers is way off the point. This is a much broader look.
 
2014-05-24 11:39:12 PM  

OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


It's not about me, it's about us as a country. We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.
 
2014-05-24 11:40:06 PM  

mark12A: Stop whining already. Slavery happened, can't change the past, get over it, move on. The more you obsess over it, the more it distracts you from getting on with your life.

There will be no reparations.


We can't move on as long as bigoted assholes like Cliven Bundy get shilled by mainstream media outlets.
 
2014-05-24 11:40:19 PM  
White liberal guilt sucks. Stop it.
 
2014-05-24 11:40:34 PM  

DrPainMD: Rincewind53: He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."

If that's a "powerful point" then the article must be pretty weak. Why should someone (like me) who comes from post-slavery immigrants accept responsibility? I had nothing to do with it. And, should the descendants of black slave-owners pay restitution? What about those who had some ancestors who were slaves and some who were slave owners... should they pay themselves? Heck, let's just tax straight, white males (to cover gender and sexual orientation reparations while we're at it) and call it a day.


He's not even arguing for specific restitution.

He's arguing that the entire system is tainted and has to be fundamentally reformed.
 
2014-05-24 11:41:00 PM  
"Reparations" doesn't mean throwing money at someone to shut them up.

It means  making right what had been wrong.

If people are going to keep interpreting the term so narrowly, maybe we should stop using it.
 
2014-05-24 11:41:03 PM  

ox45tallboy: Babwa Wawa: That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.

I think that's what's raising so much controversy - in order to gauge what is needed to make something whole, you must start with acknowledging what damage has been done.

It would be a huuuuuuge thing for America to at least acknowledge the institutionalized racism in its public policy for its entire history.


I get the feeling that you may have read this article. :-).

It is exactly that - racism, institutionalized in public policy - which begs to be reckoned with.  And TFA's author doesn't even touch the war on drugs.  To do so would have watered down his argument, but in reality is the extenuation of that heritage over the last 30 years.

I would love to see what he might say about that topic.  Wait, I could see what he thinks about it in general, but hesitates to pass judgement without further study.
 
2014-05-24 11:41:37 PM  

Yogimus: Give me the name of your ancestor that was a slave.


Jefferson.
 
2014-05-24 11:41:53 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Wrong last link, here is the Moyers interview. Link

Everyone in here who is talking about slavery, or "my family didn't own slaves" or money transfers is way off the point. This is a much broader look.


No. Not in any common sense way under the sun am I responsible for the actions of others. That's insane. Perhaps you are as well.
 
2014-05-24 11:42:19 PM  

sprgrss: cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.

So if I'm against reparations I should be put on a plane and flown back to precisely where I'm currently residing?  That's a waste of money.


no plane, boat ride, see how they like the third world shiat hole Africa is.

my Family never held slaves and several served in the army that freed them.
 
2014-05-24 11:42:25 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

It's not about me, it's about us as a country. We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.


Yeah, racism is so bad that black men can't even get elected to important offices.
 
2014-05-24 11:43:15 PM  

OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.
 
2014-05-24 11:43:31 PM  

Babwa Wawa: DubtodaIll: did read it. It doesn't change the fact that any concessions given over the past come from those in power to give those concessions. I don't see how that help anyone achieve greatness or success. It is conceding that you are unable to make yourself happy on your own and that you need the help of those in power to accomplish that.

Well, I'm not going to argue that you didn't read it, then.  I will argue that you're choosing to ignore it.  At no point does he call for direct payments, or anything else in your strawman argument.


You are technically correct that "HE" doesn't call for it.  However, he quoted people like Conyers that are calling for it.  So I guess you are right.  It's like the other day when I ran into a theater and yelled, "That girl over there says the joint is on fire!"  How can I be prosecuted for yelling fire in a theater when I wasn't?
 
2014-05-24 11:43:33 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Yeah, see that's how I know you didn't read the article.

Reparations don't need to take the form of direct payment to the victims.  Further, the author makes the point that slavery is not the only wrong committed against blacks in our society, and wronged blacks are very much still alive.

Read the article, give it a think, and come back with some thoughts, you know, about the farking article.

/white guy


Pardon me: So racism ends the moment we repay past racial transgressions through monetary or non-monetary assistance to the descendants of the victims, including but not limited to community building, government support or direct financial retroactive compensation?

Wait, sh*t. That was a stupidly long statement that failed to express anything I hadn't already. I assumed that people don't literally take the "writing a check" expression I used as the government literally writing out bank checks individually. But you shattered that one. My bad, yo.

Yes. I read the article. Yes, I still think "I gave you some shiat, we're cool now, right?" is a stupid policy. But now I also think you're intentionally contrary.

/also a white guy
//which is just as irrelevant to my post as it was to yours
 
2014-05-24 11:43:38 PM  
My family owned slaves.  According to the family legend, my ancestor was a big man in Texas.  He "married" an Indian bride.  Then he dies.  She then runs the plantation of 150 terribly cruelly.
 
2014-05-24 11:43:55 PM  

vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.


So obviously you must be punished.
 
2014-05-24 11:44:00 PM  

EngineerAU: Man, this is the most "read the article" dense thread I've seen in a long long time. Fark, what happened to you?


An opinion on racial relations that doesn't entirely mesh with their narrow world views is what happened.
 
2014-05-24 11:44:18 PM  
Or you could realize that some wounds never, ever heal and that it is okay to try and live your life to the fullest despite them.
 
2014-05-24 11:44:25 PM  

phenn: No. Not in any common sense way under the sun am I responsible for the actions of others.


Your country is responsible. It was founded and nurtured on white supremacy. All the author is asking is that we recognize and study this fact.
 
2014-05-24 11:44:59 PM  
That was indeed an interesting and well written article.  But since this is Fark and it involves race, so much this:

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-24 11:45:31 PM  
Once again, for the not-quite-literate among us:

THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY

it's not about things that happened generations ago to people long dead. It's about the injustices that have happened recently. To people alive today done by people alive today and the fact that those past injustices matter right now.
 
2014-05-24 11:45:34 PM  

OgreMagi: Yeah, racism is so bad that black men can't even get elected to important offices.


Watch the video. He addresses this.
 
2014-05-24 11:46:03 PM  

OgreMagi: I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


Says the guy whose home sits on land that used to be occupied by First Nations tribes a few hundred years ago.

You may not have fought the war but you enjoy the spoils.
 
2014-05-24 11:46:34 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Everyone in here who is talking about slavery, or "my family didn't own slaves" or money transfers is way off the point. This is a much broader look.


It wouldn't even matter if my family did own slaves 200 years ago (they didn't), or acted maliciously towards black people at some later point (they didn't), or indirectly benefited from receiving better social treatment because they were white (they didn't - they were discriminated against for being Catholics).  I would still oppose reparations - they're deeply illiberal.

Also, don't be naive.  This is about money.  That's why Coates introduces the monetary figures about the impact of slavery.
 
2014-05-24 11:46:59 PM  

js34603: So obviously you must be punished.


No, but it would be good to study history and acknowledge the wrongs that were done and be conscious of our history. I don't think anyone is saying that you or anyone else needs to write a check to Al Sharpton.
 
2014-05-24 11:47:15 PM  
I think each and every person who was a slave should get reparations.

My white ancestor got off the boat from Belgium in 1863 and started fighting to free the slaves before he could even speak English. He suffered from PTSD and hung himself 20 years later.  Can I get some of that reparations loot?
 
2014-05-24 11:47:41 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: phenn: No. Not in any common sense way under the sun am I responsible for the actions of others.

Your country is responsible. It was founded and nurtured on white supremacy. All the author is asking is that we recognize and study this fact.


My country? MY country?

Look. So far as I can reconcile, I was just born a little baby. I had nothing to do with greedy, dominant assholes who founded this or established that. They didn't do so under my direction, so my hands are relatively clean. K?

Sins of the father don't apply to me, to you or to anyone else alive or dead. You pay for your sins and I shall pay for mine. I see no usefulness or goodness that can come out of punishing me for something I didn't to to people I never knew for reasons I never understood.
 
2014-05-24 11:48:11 PM  

vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.


This is where your argument loses points and validity.  You cannot look at someone's skin and make a determination on family history.
 
2014-05-24 11:48:25 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.


Um, we have our boot on the neck of the black people? Really? REALLY?  Shut up.
 
2014-05-24 11:48:38 PM  
I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.
 
2014-05-24 11:48:51 PM  

Captain Dan: Also, don't be naive.  This is about money.  That's why Coates introduces the monetary figures about the impact of slavery


Slavery is a small part of it. The point is much broader than that.
 
2014-05-24 11:49:23 PM  

OgreMagi: Dusk-You-n-Me: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

It's not about me, it's about us as a country. We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.

Yeah, racism is so bad that black men can't even get elected to important offices.


American born black men still can't...
 
2014-05-24 11:49:35 PM  

phenn: Dusk-You-n-Me: phenn: No. Not in any common sense way under the sun am I responsible for the actions of others.

Your country is responsible. It was founded and nurtured on white supremacy. All the author is asking is that we recognize and study this fact.

My country? MY country?

Look. So far as I can reconcile, I was just born a little baby. I had nothing to do with greedy, dominant assholes who founded this or established that. They didn't do so under my direction, so my hands are relatively clean. K?

Sins of the father don't apply to me, to you or to anyone else alive or dead. You pay for your sins and I shall pay for mine. I see no usefulness or goodness that can come out of punishing me for something I didn't to to people I never knew for reasons I never understood.


You are living within the system they set up for you just by going about your business. You are being asked to acknowledge that, not to take responsibility for the sins of people who aren't alive any longer.

Is acknowledgement of facts really such a big deal to folks like you?
 
2014-05-24 11:49:49 PM  

Babwa Wawa: I get the feeling that you may have read this article. :-).

It is exactly that - racism, institutionalized in public policy - which begs to be reckoned with.  And TFA's author doesn't even touch the war on drugs.  To do so would have watered down his argument, but in reality is the extenuation of that heritage over the last 30 years.

I would love to see what he might say about that topic.  Wait, I could see what he thinks about it in general, but hesitates to pass judgement without further study.


Yes, indeed I did read it last night.

I really want to see someone who read the article provide an argument as to why we cannot at least study the effects of institutionalized racism in the United States. What harm it did (and still does today), and what it would take to undo that harm.
 
2014-05-24 11:49:54 PM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


Well, technically, Liberia was supposed to be the black slaves version of modern Israel.
 
2014-05-24 11:50:07 PM  
EVERYONE who was alive during slavery is long farkING dead. The suffering is over, get the fark over it! I do not farking care if your great, great grandfather had a friend who's father was a slave!! NO white person who is currently alive has anything to do with it! NO black person who is currently alive was EVER a farking slave! Sure, we have racism that needs to be eradicated, but that is entirely different than reparations for slavery!
 
2014-05-24 11:50:15 PM  
The author makes her case in the first blurb under the title the rest of it is just well written icing on the cake.
 
2014-05-24 11:50:25 PM  

phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


I would.

Just the first hundred comments should really inform everyone as to why black culture, in all respects, appears so aberrant.

Basically, it boils down to you never care about our needs as a supposedly fully enfranchised segment of the population, until we start burning buildings and looting in incoherent rage.

Remember the reaction to the Watts and other riots of the Sixties.
Remember the reaction to the South Central riots of 1992.
Remember the reaction to the looting post Katrina in New Orleans.

Now what was our level of care before then?
And in real terms... not very high.

So right now our collective mood is "You never cared about us, so why should we care what you think of us now. "

Brothers and Sisters are going to make money however they can because fark the system.

If that makes us look like a bunch of thugs and miscreants, so be it.

Why do you think we go through so much trouble to derive names that are non-standard? Because we just don't care about it anymore.
 
2014-05-24 11:50:39 PM  

Benjimin_Dover: However, he quoted people like Conyers that are calling for it.


So when I quote someone, I agree with their proposals?  I've quoted some awful people in various papers...

Why not take a look at the article, and see about the actual author's proposal?  Maybe you could criticize the actual content?
 
2014-05-24 11:50:41 PM  

Kyro: Pardon me: So racism ends the moment we repay past racial transgressions through monetary or non-monetary assistance to the descendants of the victims, including but not limited to community building, government support or direct financial retroactive compensation?


Where are you getting this "moment" idea from?  Nobody's saying there's a quick fix for racial injustice.

In fact, Coates is saying that it's a much slower process than most people will admit. You did read TFA, right?
 
2014-05-24 11:51:09 PM  

7FARK7: Sure, we have racism that needs to be eradicated, but that is entirely different than reparations for slavery!


you almost got the point. Almost.

/might not have gone over your head had you RTFA.
 
2014-05-24 11:51:14 PM  

sprgrss: This is where your argument loses points and validity. You cannot look at someone's skin and make a determination on family history.


You're right, I can't. I shouldn't generalize. I don't know everyone's situation.
 
2014-05-24 11:52:24 PM  
www.indianvillagemall.com
/all y'all gots to go
 
2014-05-24 11:52:59 PM  
I say start with 40 acres and a mule.

Seriously, though, reparations aren't a bad idea, especially in the form of property ownership (actually, I advocate a right to housing for all, free from rent, but that's another discussion).
 
2014-05-24 11:52:59 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: You are living within the system they set up for you just by going about your business. You are being asked to acknowledge that, not to take responsibility for the sins of people who aren't alive any longer.

Is acknowledgement of facts really such a big deal to folks like you?


Not in the least.

I acknowledge that immigrants to the US (some under duress) have been treated monstrously. In particular, Africans, sold into slavery by their own brethren and countrymen. Also Irish, Asian, Latino and Jewish (to varying degrees).

I absolutely acknowledge that.

We done here?
 
2014-05-24 11:53:33 PM  
vernonFL:
You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.
... etc etc



img.fark.net
 
2014-05-24 11:53:48 PM  

cabbyman: OgreMagi: Dusk-You-n-Me: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt.  I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

It's not about me, it's about us as a country. We spent hundreds of years with our boot on the neck of black people. We still do today.

Yeah, racism is so bad that black men can't even get elected to important offices.

American born black men still can't...


What about Obama?

I keed, I keed
 
2014-05-24 11:54:34 PM  

JavierLobo: My family owned slaves.  According to the family legend, my ancestor was a big man in Texas.  He "married" an Indian bride.  Then he dies.  She then runs the plantation of 150 terribly cruelly.


That's antebellum 1%.

Less than 10% of southerners owned slaves and even those owned at most a handful on small farms. The wealth distribution wasn't much different than it is today.

Is your family still in the rich planter class?
 
2014-05-24 11:55:06 PM  
Women were systematically discriminated against throughout our nation's history, and still are today in varying ways.

Therefore, everyone who descends from women is entitled to reparations.

/Coates' logic
 
2014-05-24 11:55:12 PM  
www.spd.org

Slavery ended years ago. I don't know anyone who was a slave.
 
2014-05-24 11:56:10 PM  

phenn: I acknowledge that immigrants to the US (some under duress) have been treated monstrously. In particular, Africans, sold into slavery by their own brethren and countrymen. Also Irish, Asian, Latino and Jewish (to varying degrees).


That's very brave of you to take the stance that slavery is bad, while putting the blame squarely where it belongs: on other people of the same ethnicity as the people who were enslaved.
 
2014-05-24 11:56:11 PM  

vernonFL: [www.spd.org image 580x403]

Slavery ended years ago. I don't know anyone who was a slave.


If you want to combat slavery maybe we can chip in for a one-way flight to Africa or Asia where it's still commonplace.
You might be killed since you're white, though.
 
2014-05-24 11:57:51 PM  

ox45tallboy: I really want to see someone who read the article provide an argument as to why we cannot at least study the effects of institutionalized racism in the United States. What harm it did (and still does today), and what it would take to undo that harm.


Well, you and I will be waiting.   Hold my hand - we can do this.  Together.

Seriously, I had held off on reading this until this morning.  I really despise it when stuff is built up like this article is, and then I'm treated to something obvious, pedantic, or both.

It's not the suck-the-wind-out-of-your-lungs work it has been built up to be, but it's a pretty methodical and well-organized piece of work.  Its greatest impact is that it thoroughly dismantles the fantasy that a lot of people live in.
 
2014-05-24 11:58:08 PM  

poot_rootbeer: phenn: I acknowledge that immigrants to the US (some under duress) have been treated monstrously. In particular, Africans, sold into slavery by their own brethren and countrymen. Also Irish, Asian, Latino and Jewish (to varying degrees).

That's very brave of you to take the stance that slavery is bad, while putting the blame squarely where it belongs: on other people of the same ethnicity as the people who were enslaved.


You might wish to read a history book there, kitty cat.
 
2014-05-25 12:01:19 AM  
Also Black people have really only been economically franchised for the last 30 years in the most broad of senses.

When almost everyone in a group starts from zero or negative wealth, you get persistent poverty.

Of the kind that makes idiots believe that group is fundamentally inferior.

Sure we celebrate the Magic Johnson s and the Oprahs of the world. And we use those aberrations to further beat upon Blacks in general while saying "They made it out why can't you"

I'm starting to believe that redlining was as destructive to building Black wealth as the Jim Crow laws in the South.
 
2014-05-25 12:01:30 AM  

phenn: You might wish to read a history book there, kitty cat.


You might wish to read a newspaper.

/or blog, or whatever the modern medium for chronicling contemporary events is
 
2014-05-25 12:01:44 AM  
"I'm not asking you as a white person to see yourself as a slaver, I'm asking you as an American, to see all the freedoms that you enjoy, to see how they are rooted in things that -- the country that you belong to condoned or actively participated in, in the past. And that covers everything from enslavement, to the era of lynching when we effectively decided that we weren't going to afford African-Americans the same level of protection of the law. It applies to share cropping, when we decided that we were gonna in whole swaths of the country allow people to be effectively re-enslaved, it applies to redlining when we decided that people that lived in certain places would get the largesse of the government, and other people would not. It applies today in terms of mass incarceration, when we decided we are going to be harder on crimes committed by certain people, or the same crime committed by certain people, and not be that hard when it's committed by other people. This is heritage. It's with us. It's with all of us. And it's not with you because you're white, it's with you because you're an American." Link
 
2014-05-25 12:03:07 AM  

Babwa Wawa: It's not the suck-the-wind-out-of-your-lungs work it has been built up to be, but it's a pretty methodical and well-organized piece of work.  Its greatest impact is that it thoroughly dismantles the fantasy that a lot of people live in.


I for one found it rather educational. I didn't know anything about the "on contract" buying, or the fact that it was actually the Federal government that set the districts eligible for loan assistance based on racial makeup of the neighborhood.
 
2014-05-25 12:03:13 AM  

OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.


The discussion is about using tax dollars to narrow the social gap caused by racism and slavery.

Penance is a religious term about the forgiving of sin.
The only reason that you could use that term in this context is if you worship money.
 
2014-05-25 12:03:36 AM  

mark12A: Stop whining already. Slavery happened, can't change the past, get over it, move on. The more you obsess over it, the more it distracts you from getting on with your life.

There will be no reparations.


I knew there was a reason I farkied you as racist.
 
2014-05-25 12:04:45 AM  

Babwa Wawa: And for the record, I hardly see a workable solution to TFA's author's issues, as race-based reparations are difficult to implement and would be questionable in both justification and effect.

That being said, I agree that we are not in a post-racial society, and that his modest proposals (which consist of simple consideration and study of the issue) are worthwhile.


Why should I bother to read the article when you just told me it was largely a waste of time?
 
2014-05-25 12:05:05 AM  

Flying Lasagna Monster: "Sit down, my son.   We don't read most of the articles. Do you really know what that would entail ... if we were to read every article that was posted on Fark?


You're right of course.  But this is an article that people should read and comprehend - before trying to compose arguments against it.  It's been on the twitters and reddits for a while now.  Kind of surprising it's just hitting fark.
 
2014-05-25 12:05:26 AM  

neongoats: Yeah, I'm almost more liberal than the libbyest lib that ever libed and yeah, no thanks.

If anything just make confederate flag waving dickhead states in the south pay up, my ancestors were part of burning Atlanta to the ground and I'm sad they didn't burn harder and wider.


*Somebody* DNRTFA.
 
2014-05-25 12:06:24 AM  

BlueDWarrior: phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.

I would.

Just the first hundred comments should really inform everyone as to why black culture, in all respects, appears so aberrant.

Basically, it boils down to you never care about our needs as a supposedly fully enfranchised segment of the population, until we start burning buildings and looting in incoherent rage.

Remember the reaction to the Watts and other riots of the Sixties.
Remember the reaction to the South Central riots of 1992.
Remember the reaction to the looting post Katrina in New Orleans.

Now what was our level of care before then?
And in real terms... not very high.

So right now our collective mood is "You never cared about us, so why should we care what you think of us now. "

Brothers and Sisters are going to make money however they can because fark the system.

If that makes us look like a bunch of thugs and miscreants, so be it.

Why do you think we go through so much trouble to derive names that are non-standard? Because we just don't care about it anymore.


I appreciate your candor. You've given me things to think about. Gracias.
 
2014-05-25 12:09:23 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Flying Lasagna Monster: "Sit down, my son.   We don't read most of the articles. Do you really know what that would entail ... if we were to read every article that was posted on Fark?

You're right of course.  But this is an article that people should read and comprehend - before trying to compose arguments against it.  It's been on the twitters and reddits for a while now.  Kind of surprising it's just hitting fark.


I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.
 
2014-05-25 12:09:29 AM  

ox45tallboy: I for one found it rather educational. I didn't know anything about the "on contract" buying, or the fact that it was actually the Federal government that set the districts eligible for loan assistance based on racial makeup of the neighborhood.


I did too, and I had no idea.  Educational it was, but the historical bit was not surprising to me.

How he wrapped up the article should make anyone take notice.  The racially correlated stats on predatory real estate lending is eye-opening, and deserves investigation.
 
2014-05-25 12:09:43 AM  
i18.photobucket.com
 
2014-05-25 12:10:35 AM  

moothemagiccow: Why should I bother to read the article when you just told me it was largely a waste of time?


I know, right?  I don't want to think about difficult problems either.  I'll just go look at porn.
 
2014-05-25 12:11:47 AM  
How to fan the flames
 
2014-05-25 12:13:25 AM  
Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.
 
2014-05-25 12:15:24 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm an American.

And as Americans, we should accept that we live in a country founded on white supremacy, and our behavior then and now reflects this fact.


So African-Americans will pay this reparation as well?  You know, the ones that enjoy the fruits of their ancestors slave labor?
 
2014-05-25 12:16:01 AM  

oh_please: I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.


I'm confused.  Should I be guilty over what happened in the 18th or 19th century?  Maybe the predatory sh*t that went down in the mid to late 20th century?  Or wait, should I want to do something to stop the predatory lending practices that go in right now, right here in the 21st century, in some place in the US that you presumably prefer to ignore?
 
2014-05-25 12:16:44 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Black people should not look to whites for charity forever. What we lack is self help and self reliance. We are always wanting somebody to do something for us. As a race we are too envious, malicious and superficial, and because of this we keep ourselves back------MARCUS GARVEY (from his lecture at Collegiate Hall in Kingston Jamaica , given in 1915)


You've been waiting for the crumbs to fall off the white man's table, but God is going to take the white man's bread away, and force you to do for self. The only reason you are following the white man, is because you are looking for crumbs, and when you find out he has no more crumbs or bread to give you. Then you will turn him loose like a hot potato------MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)


How about you read the article?
 
2014-05-25 12:17:03 AM  

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


It was supposed to help overcome institutional racism, but has proven to an ineffective remedy and creates problems in its own right.
 
2014-05-25 12:17:22 AM  
"Social Security when it was passed excluded African-Americans. Now it wasn't written that way. It was written so folks who either worked as farmhands or worked as help in the house, were excluded. What that had the effect of doing is excluding roughly 80% of African-Americans in the south, and something around 65% of African-Americans nationally. And what people will tell you is that got fixed. And it did get fixed.

But the problem is during those years people are injured. And that's how you get a gap. The fact that you injured those people during those years doesn't mean that people will catch up when you eventually fix it. It relates to us today, because the argument we make about Obamacare and the medicaid expansion is 'well, eventually market pressures will force those states in the south to catch up. They'll fix it.' But see in those intervening years, black folks who needed it most, much like black folks who needed it most during the era when we passed Social Security, will be injured. Again. And the fact that it gets fixed will not close the gap. So the questions is - why do we keep doing that? Why do we look at a map of where the medicaid expansion has gone through and where it hasn't, and why do we see this swath of the country that's directly identical to where we had plantation slavery?" Link
 
2014-05-25 12:17:53 AM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


Liberia
 
2014-05-25 12:17:56 AM  

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


Why, if it wasn't for affirmative action, there'd be no more racism.
 
2014-05-25 12:18:18 AM  

No Such Agency: vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]

Norman Rockwell could paint corny wholesome Americana with the best of them, but when he laid down the hammer, he farking laid it down.  That painting, as stylized and as intentionally string-pulling as it is, gives me the chills every single time.


I like this pic:

www.eurweb.com



The woman Obama is talking to is Ruby Bridges, the little girl in the painting.

They're viewing the painting in the White House.
 
2014-05-25 12:18:54 AM  
I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?
 
2014-05-25 12:20:11 AM  
Kyro:   I don't think we can buy our way out of this. This isn't a money problem. Sure the program-route has promise, but it's still attempting to apologize for beating the hell out of your kid by buying them an Xbox.

I'm personally of the opinion that we shouldn't be taking credit or blame for the actions of Americans 100+ years ago.


That there is a thoughtful response from someone who has read the piece.
 
2014-05-25 12:20:39 AM  

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


No... not in the traditional sense of the word.

Affirmative action and Welfare are post-scriptive measures to try and alleviate the after effects of institutionalized racism.

The fact we have these programs and Blacks are largely only treading water as a collective shows how awful our position was at the start of the Great Society and how disadvantaged it is today still.

To the point where people legitimately believe that Blacks as a group are d simply inferior humans and should be left to rot on the vine until they magically figure it out, whatever it is.

And my suspicion is that the it is this phrase: "Know your role, and shut your mouth."
 
2014-05-25 12:21:20 AM  
I see this thread was roughly as successful as I envisioned it'd be.

It was a good article. The stuff about how the housing market screwed over generations of blacks was particularly enlightening. I knew Chicago always had issues with integration, but I was unaware that there was an entire secondary market based entirely around forcing any black that wanted to buy a home to do so through incredibly unscrupulous predatory lenders.

I knew, when I read the article, that most people would probably just see the title and write it off as the libbiest lib dream that ever libbed, but it was insightful and informative. I expect I won't see another like it for some time.
 
2014-05-25 12:21:57 AM  

The Southern Dandy: I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?


I'm curious as to whether you've read the article?  Have you read all of it?  Looked up all the words you don't comprehend immediately?  Conferred with others as to the differing interpretations of context?

Who decides?
 
2014-05-25 12:23:21 AM  
The damned issue NEEDS SIMPLY TO BE DISCUSSED FIRST.

We are a powerful country built on a solid foundation.

BUT.

One of the foundation stones, at the very least, is ROTTEN through and through.

It MUST be examined openly. It must be brought to the light of day.

We have both great good and great ill-doing in our history.

Even the founders paused in dread for thought on the conflict between "all men are created equal" and slavery.

If they were here now, in this time, they would not be afraid to face it or discuss it, or examine it, or study its histories and its foot dragging aftermath.

THEY would not be afraid to admit that they had committed a grievous error.

They would not be aftraid to try to correct it.

What are we so afraid of? Our own history? Treating human beings like human beings?

The rotten foundation stone has to be pulled out.
 
2014-05-25 12:23:31 AM  
Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.
 
2014-05-25 12:24:01 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: Black people should not look to whites for charity forever. What we lack is self help and self reliance. We are always wanting somebody to do something for us. As a race we are too envious, malicious and superficial, and because of this we keep ourselves back------MARCUS GARVEY (from his lecture at Collegiate Hall in Kingston Jamaica , given in 1915)


You've been waiting for the crumbs to fall off the white man's table, but God is going to take the white man's bread away, and force you to do for self. The only reason you are following the white man, is because you are looking for crumbs, and when you find out he has no more crumbs or bread to give you. Then you will turn him loose like a hot potato------MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)

How about you read the article?

so you don't think these quotes from Malcolm X and Marcus Gravey to be important to the article?


The article is stating that due to institutional forces, the bootstraps model for advancement has largely been a crock of shiat for Blacks.

Problem today, it's now a crock for Just about everyone.
 
2014-05-25 12:24:19 AM  
"A neighborhood where African-Americans live cannot receive FHA funding. And that went beyond the FHA. Banks decided who they were going to lend money to based on FHA policy. You can look at a map of the city of Chicago and see where the loans were and where the loans weren't. And this is a practice that lasted on paper -- on paper -- into 1960, and likely much longer than that."
 
2014-05-25 12:25:43 AM  
www.weeklystandard.com
 
2014-05-25 12:26:35 AM  

Kittypie070: The damned issue NEEDS SIMPLY TO BE DISCUSSED FIRST.



No no no! You must first read the article!!

It's been mentioned here. Possibly more than once

/read the article
//farkers reading articles. Good one.
 
2014-05-25 12:26:40 AM  

Strolpol: I see this thread was roughly as successful as I envisioned it'd be.

It was a good article. The stuff about how the housing market screwed over generations of blacks was particularly enlightening. I knew Chicago always had issues with integration, but I was unaware that there was an entire secondary market based entirely around forcing any black that wanted to buy a home to do so through incredibly unscrupulous predatory lenders.

I knew, when I read the article, that most people would probably just see the title and write it off as the libbiest lib dream that ever libbed, but it was insightful and informative. I expect I won't see another like it for some time.


Even at this point in the thread, most of the posters make it obvious that they didn't RTFA at all.
They think somebody is talking about randomly writing checks to black folks.
 
2014-05-25 12:27:06 AM  

advex101: Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.


Its beyond blame at this point.

We just want an audit just so we can see just how screwed we've been as a people.

Maybe then we can consider the proper structure going forward.
 
2014-05-25 12:28:20 AM  

Kittypie070: The damned issue NEEDS SIMPLY TO BE DISCUSSED FIRST.

We are a powerful country built on a solid foundation.

BUT.

One of the foundation stones, at the very least, is ROTTEN through and through.

It MUST be examined openly. It must be brought to the light of day.

We have both great good and great ill-doing in our history.

Even the founders paused in dread for thought on the conflict between "all men are created equal" and slavery.

If they were here now, in this time, they would not be afraid to face it or discuss it, or examine it, or study its histories and its foot dragging aftermath.

THEY would not be afraid to admit that they had committed a grievous error.

They would not be aftraid to try to correct it.

What are we so afraid of? Our own history? Treating human beings like human beings?

The rotten foundation stone has to be pulled out.


Too many carriage returns.

i.imgflip.com
 
2014-05-25 12:29:03 AM  
This is a thread full of idiots.

R
T
F
A
 
2014-05-25 12:29:44 AM  
phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


Okay, I'll give it a shot.

As I read through the thread, I see that most people here are hung up on the slavery aspect of the story. That's understandable I guess, because the reparations arguments of the past have almost always centered on redress for slave labor. But the article (which I read yesterday) spends very little time on slavery. Hell, it doesn't even dwell on the Jim Crow south. Coates spends the vast majority of the article talking about how we were systematically, legally, and intentionally locked out of the American dream long after slavery was abolished, and he uses Chicago as a case study.

As a black person, do I want reparations? Nope. Not because I think it's a silly idea. But because I think it's the easy way out. I don't want the U.S. government writing a bunch of checks and then saying "Okay, we good now?" It completely oversimplifies the issue.

What the author is advocating in this article (if I read it correctly, and I believe I did) is not really financial reparations, but rather, acknowledgment and introspection. And on that point, I agree wholeheartedly. If America was ready to have an honest conversation about what has been done to black people in this country beyond slavery...then we wouldn't have people asking stupid questions like "Why can't blacks get their shiat together?" "Why can immigrants come here and succeed but blacks can't?" "Why are the blacks always complaining?"

Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:

www.leftycartoons.com
 
2014-05-25 12:30:20 AM  

rhiannon: /read the article
//farkers reading articles. Good one.


I think this one is just more frustrating than most because the article is all "this isn't just about slavery and it isn't about cutting checks to black people" and the posters that seem most upset keep saying "I never owned any slaves and how are we going to cut a check to every black person?" like they've come up with a brilliant counter.
 
2014-05-25 12:30:35 AM  
Brick-House:

Clearly the answer is to cut welfare spending to absolute minimal levels, the Black poeple will go get jobs.

Because they totally aren't working themselves into early graves as it stands...
 
2014-05-25 12:30:46 AM  

BlueDWarrior: advex101: Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.

Its beyond blame at this point.

We just want an audit just so we can see just how screwed we've been as a people.

Maybe then we can consider the proper structure going forward.


Why do you speak of yourself as though you represent a pure racial group?  It would make more sense to base your argument on economics than race.  And, you would find that you have more supporters.
 
2014-05-25 12:30:52 AM  
Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.  In fact the first slave owner in America was--wait for it!--black!  http://topconservativenews.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was - a-black-man/

What about Arabs involved in the slave trade?  Why aren't the race hustlers shaking them down?  (Maybe they're afraid that the Arabs will declare jihad?  Who knows....)

How about the fact that slavery still goes on in Africa even today?

You can take that white guilt, shine it up, turn it sideways (I think you know the rest)....

As far as I'm concerned, blacks have already gotten reparations.  It's known as Section 8, welfare, and various other kinds of freebies.

Victimhood is an industry nowadays, it seems....
 
2014-05-25 12:31:02 AM  
Yeah, even after 250 years of slavery we went straight on with being racially divided assholes. But not just to blacks.

But look up, my ebony opposites, the monied powers have come to rig the system to suck economic producivity from us white people as well.
 
2014-05-25 12:32:04 AM  

Babwa Wawa: oh_please: I read it, and it's nothing but white liberal guilt. If it makes you feel better, great.

I'm confused.  Should I be guilty over what happened in the 18th or 19th century?  Maybe the predatory sh*t that went down in the mid to late 20th century?  Or wait, should I want to do something to stop the predatory lending practices that go in right now, right here in the 21st century, in some place in the US that you presumably prefer to ignore?


Keep patting those black people on the head. It'll make you feel superior, you racist.
 
2014-05-25 12:32:11 AM  

fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"


I'll say this as many times as it needs repeating: A house is something you live in, not something you invest in/gamble on. We apparently did not learn our lesson that houses are not casino chips from the last collapse. Bunch of farking...
 
2014-05-25 12:32:17 AM  

advex101: Why do you speak of yourself as though you represent a pure racial group?  It would make more sense to base your argument on economics than race.  And, you would find that you have more supporters.


Yet another point addressed in the article.
 
2014-05-25 12:33:18 AM  
OK. Find me someone who was a slave, find someone who owned slaves, and make them pay the first person reparations. If you can't do that, shut the fark up about it. If you weren't a slave, you aren't owed shiat for slavery. If you didn't own slaves, you don't owe anyone shiat for slavery.

Your crimes are yours, mine are mine. I will not pay for yours, and I will not ask you to pay for mine.
 
2014-05-25 12:33:30 AM  

Babwa Wawa: The Southern Dandy: I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?

I'm curious as to whether you've read the article?  Have you read all of it?  Looked up all the words you don't comprehend immediately?  Conferred with others as to the differing interpretations of context?

Who decides?


OK, so we should cut a check for $.01 to any black person.  I'm cool with that.  Not sure how that penny will be any different from the apology that was already issued by congress.
 
2014-05-25 12:33:49 AM  

Miss Alexandra: Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.


Exactly right, because TFA talks mostly about the things that have set black people back which happened in the 1920's-80's. So who owned slaves and world wide slavery really don't counter anything the article is about. But you were just being ironic, right?
 
2014-05-25 12:34:45 AM  
40 acres and a mule  DIVIDED BY (Babby Momma x Babby Daddy)= ?
 
the seventh of 13 children,

13 kids is just too damn many.
 
2014-05-25 12:34:49 AM  

I Browse: phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


Okay, I'll give it a shot.

As I read through the thread, I see that most people here are hung up on the slavery aspect of the story. That's understandable I guess, because the reparations arguments of the past have almost always centered on redress for slave labor. But the article (which I read yesterday) spends very little time on slavery. Hell, it doesn't even dwell on the Jim Crow south. Coates spends the vast majority of the article talking about how we were systematically, legally, and intentionally locked out of the American dream long after slavery was abolished, and he uses Chicago as a case study.

As a black person, do I want reparations? Nope. Not because I think it's a silly idea. But because I think it's the easy way out. I don't want the U.S. government writing a bunch of checks and then saying "Okay, we good now?" It completely oversimplifies the issue.

What the author is advocating in this article (if I read it correctly, and I believe I did) is not really financial reparations, but rather, acknowledgment and introspection. And on that point, I agree wholeheartedly. If America was ready to have an honest conversation about what has been done to black people in this country beyond slavery...then we wouldn't have people asking stupid questions like "Why can't blacks get their shiat together?" "Why can immigrants come here and succeed but blacks can't?" "Why are the blacks always complaining?"

Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:

[www.leftycartoons.com image 650x511]


Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.
 
2014-05-25 12:36:12 AM  

taurusowner: Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.


So nobody alive today was around for the redlining of the 1960's? Are our mortality rates really that bad?
 
2014-05-25 12:36:20 AM  

Miss Alexandra: Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.  In fact the first slave owner in America was--wait for it!--black!  http://topconservativenews.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was - a-black-man/

What about Arabs involved in the slave trade?  Why aren't the race hustlers shaking them down?  (Maybe they're afraid that the Arabs will declare jihad?  Who knows....)

How about the fact that slavery still goes on in Africa even today?

You can take that white guilt, shine it up, turn it sideways (I think you know the rest)....

As far as I'm concerned, blacks have already gotten reparations.  It's known as Section 8, welfare, and various other kinds of freebies.

Victimhood is an industry nowadays, it seems....


White people didn't invent slavery, but they did invent freedom.
 
2014-05-25 12:36:41 AM  

I Browse: phenn: Would a black member of Fark care to chime in here? I'd be appreciative of your take.


Okay, I'll give it a shot.

As I read through the thread, I see that most people here are hung up on the slavery aspect of the story. That's understandable I guess, because the reparations arguments of the past have almost always centered on redress for slave labor. But the article (which I read yesterday) spends very little time on slavery. Hell, it doesn't even dwell on the Jim Crow south. Coates spends the vast majority of the article talking about how we were systematically, legally, and intentionally locked out of the American dream long after slavery was abolished, and he uses Chicago as a case study.

As a black person, do I want reparations? Nope. Not because I think it's a silly idea. But because I think it's the easy way out. I don't want the U.S. government writing a bunch of checks and then saying "Okay, we good now?" It completely oversimplifies the issue.

What the author is advocating in this article (if I read it correctly, and I believe I did) is not really financial reparations, but rather, acknowledgment and introspection. And on that point, I agree wholeheartedly. If America was ready to have an honest conversation about what has been done to black people in this country beyond slavery...then we wouldn't have people asking stupid questions like "Why can't blacks get their shiat together?" "Why can immigrants come here and succeed but blacks can't?" "Why are the blacks always complaining?"

Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:


I can tell you what I think of it personally.

They want everyone to just shut up and go back to their supposedly minimum wage job (if they even work) and just accept the system for what it is.

Because that is what they do.

Anyone who agitates the system to try and get more out of it is a threat.

I don't even want a check, I just want actual fairness and equity in the system, instead of nice happy talk about how we are a race blind society now.

Because if you think that our system even resembles fair, you can go jump in the Mighty Mississippi for all I care.
 
2014-05-25 12:36:44 AM  

I Browse: Btw...for those who simply refuse to read the article, I can sum it up for you right here:

[www.leftycartoons.com image 650x511]


Seriously?  There are people who think blacks have been given NO extra help ever?
 
2014-05-25 12:37:27 AM  

odinsposse: taurusowner: Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.

So nobody alive today was around for the redlining of the 1960's? Are our mortality rates really that bad?


You'll be hard pressed to find many people who were responsible for instituting redlining still in any position of authority
 
2014-05-25 12:37:41 AM  
We probably shouldn't pay any money to the descendants of slave owners.  That would mean a whole lot of blacks would not get reparations.  We should probably make them pay back society since their ancestors were rapists.
 
2014-05-25 12:38:03 AM  
The central point of this article is false. It's summed up in the following statement:

"The reason black people are so far behind now is not because of now. It's because of then."

This would make perfect sense if the U.S. were the only country in the world.  But as it's not, you don't have to just look at how black people are doing in the U.S., you can look at how they're doing in every other country in the world which didn't have slavery.  What you'll find is that black people are just as far behind there as well.

The legacy of U.S. slavery is clearly not holding back black people in Canada and England and the entirety of Africa.  So what is?  It must be something else.
 
2014-05-25 12:38:15 AM  

taurusowner: Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.


So, we can safely presume that you would happily give up any social privileges or rights you did not personally earn?
 
2014-05-25 12:38:17 AM  
www.normanadams.org

Just look at how good this kid has it! FOUR completely FREE personal bodyguards!
 
2014-05-25 12:39:57 AM  

advex101: BlueDWarrior: advex101: Black folks are about to become the 2nd largest minority in America.  After that they will be outvoted by the Latinos and the gringos.  Also inter racial marriage is really going to start diluting the blame pool in the future.

Its beyond blame at this point.

We just want an audit just so we can see just how screwed we've been as a people.

Maybe then we can consider the proper structure going forward.

Why do you speak of yourself as though you represent a pure racial group?  It would make more sense to base your argument on economics than race.  And, you would find that you have more supporters.


Because you can't take one without the other. They are like conjoined twins.

A lot of previous policy that makes up the bulk of what we operate under now is based upon screwing both minorities and women.

Until we properly account for ALL of it, we will not advance as a society.
 
2014-05-25 12:40:17 AM  

jso2897: Even at this point in the thread, most of the posters make it obvious that they didn't RTFA at all.
They think somebody is talking about randomly writing checks to black folks.


The irony I see is that the point of the article is about having a discussion, actually looking at facts about institutionalized racism, and how difficult it is to have an honest conversation about what happened and how bad it was.

Apparently not only is that impossible, it's impossible to get people to talk about having the conversation.
 
2014-05-25 12:40:33 AM  

2chris2: The central point of this article is false. It's summed up in the following statement:

"The reason black people are so far behind now is not because of now. It's because of then."

This would make perfect sense if the U.S. were the only country in the world.  But as it's not, you don't have to just look at how black people are doing in the U.S., you can look at how they're doing in every other country in the world which didn't have slavery.  What you'll find is that black people are just as far behind there as well.

The legacy of U.S. slavery is clearly not holding back black people in Canada and England and the entirety of Africa.  So what is?  It must be something else.


Why don't you tell us, if you think you know?
 
2014-05-25 12:41:49 AM  
Reparations have been paid is social programs. Also the 40 acres and a mule was promised by a lone general to get freed slaves to stop following his regiment.
 
2014-05-25 12:42:01 AM  

ox45tallboy: jso2897: Even at this point in the thread, most of the posters make it obvious that they didn't RTFA at all.
They think somebody is talking about randomly writing checks to black folks.

The irony I see is that the point of the article is about having a discussion, actually looking at facts about institutionalized racism, and how difficult it is to have an honest conversation about what happened and how bad it was.

Apparently not only is that impossible, it's impossible to get people to talk about having the conversation.


They are terrified that someone might take away from them something they never earned and don't own to begin with.
 
2014-05-25 12:42:44 AM  

cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.


you dont sound very happy.

possibly it's the pearl of derp, forming in recesses your brain day in day out as you're exposed to the toxins of your own opinion.

likely, even.
 
2014-05-25 12:43:23 AM  

Babwa Wawa: moothemagiccow: Why should I bother to read the article when you just told me it was largely a waste of time?

I know, right?  I don't want to think about difficult problems either.  I'll just go look at porn.


As far as I can tell, the whole "institutional racism" thing is just recreational outrage. Nobody has a practical way of fixing it so they just fawn over minorities, act like privilege is something only other people have and make a fuss about affirmative action in the cast of saturday night live. Or whatever's "disgraceful" this month. I'm pretty sure we were on the Redskins, who got a pass for 82 years, but only  now their name is offensive.

//dnrtfa
//tl;dr
 
2014-05-25 12:43:46 AM  

Address on Civil Rights (June 11, 1963)
John Fitzgerald Kennedy

Kennedy speaks from the Oval Office in response to the National Guard being sent
to protect African American students at the University of Alabama.




Good evening, my fellow citizens:

This afternoon, following a series of threats and defiant statements, the presence of Alabama National Guardsmen was required on the University of Alabama to carry out the final and unequivocal order of the United States District Court of the Northern District of Alabama. That order called for the admission of two clearly qualified young Alabama residents who happened to have been born Negro.

That they were admitted peacefully on the campus is due in good measure to the conduct of the students of the University of Alabama, who met their responsibilities in a constructive way.

I hope that every American, regardless of where he lives, will stop and examine his conscience about this and other related incidents. This Nation was founded by men of many nations and backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal, and that the rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.

Today we are committed to a worldwide struggle to promote and protect the rights of all who wish to be free. And when Americans are sent to Viet-Nam or West Berlin, we do not ask for whites only. It ought to be possible, therefore, for American students of any color to attend any public institution they select without having to be backed up by troops.

It ought to be possible for American consumers of any color to receive equal service in places of public accommodation, such as hotels and restaurants and theaters and retail stores, without being forced to resort to demonstrations in the street, and it ought to be possible for American citizens of any color to register and to vote in a free election without interference or fear of reprisal.

It ought to be possible, in short, for every American to enjoy the privileges of being American without regard to his race or his color. In short, every American ought to have the right to be treated as he would wish to be treated, as one would wish his children to be treated. But this is not the case.

The Negro baby born in America today, regardless of the section of the Nation in which he is born, has about one-half as much chance of completing a high school as a white baby born in the same place on the same day, one-third as much chance of completing college, one-third as much chance of becoming a professional man, twice as much chance of becoming unemployed, about one-seventh as much chance of earning $10,000 a year, a life expectancy which is 7 years shorter, and the prospects of earning only half as much.

This is not a sectional issue. Difficulties over segregation and discrimination exist in every city, in every State of the Union, producing in many cities a rising tide of discontent that threatens the public safety. Nor is this a partisan issue. In a time of domestic crisis men of good will and generosity should be able to unite regardless of party or politics. This is not even a legal or legislative issue alone. It is better to settle these matters in the courts than on the streets, and new laws are needed at every level, but law alone cannot make men see right.

We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. It is as old as the scriptures and is as clear as the American Constitution.

The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated. If an American, because his skin is dark, cannot eat lunch in a restaurant open to the public, if he cannot send his children to the best public school available, if he cannot vote for the public officials who represent him, if, in short, he cannot enjoy the full and free life which all of us want, then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place? Who among us would then be content with the counsels of patience and delay?

One hundred years of delay have passed since President Lincoln freed the slaves, yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They are not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They are not yet freed from social and economic oppression.

And this Nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all its citizens are free.

We preach freedom around the world, and we mean it, and we cherish our freedom here at home, but are we to say to the world, and much more importantly, to each other that this is a land of the free except for the Negroes; that we have no second-class citizens except Negroes; that we have no class or cast system, no ghettoes, no master race except with respect to Negroes?

Now the time has come for this Nation to fulfill its promise. The events in Birmingham and elsewhere have so increased the cries for equality that no city or State or legislative body can prudently choose to ignore them.

The fires of frustration and discord are burning in every city, North and South, where legal remedies are not at hand. Redress is sought in the streets, in demonstrations, parades, and protests which create tensions and threaten violence and threaten lives.

We face, therefore, a moral crisis as a country and as a people. It cannot be met by repressive police action. It cannot be left to increased demonstrations in the streets. It cannot be quieted by token moves or talk. It is a time to act in the Congress, in your State and local legislative body and, above all, in all of our daily lives.

It is not enough to pin the blame on others, to say this is a problem of one section of the country or another, or deplore the fact that we face. A great change is at hand, and our task, our obligation, is to make that revolution, that change, peaceful and constructive for all.

Those who do nothing are inviting shame as well as violence. Those who act boldly are recognizing right as well as reality.

Next week I shall ask the Congress of the United States to act, to make a commitment it has not fully made in this century to the proposition that race has no place in American life or law. The Federal judiciary has upheld that proposition in a series of forthright cases. The executive branch has adopted that proposition in the conduct of its affairs, including the employment of Federal personnel, the use of Federal facilities, and the sale of federally financed housing.

But there are other necessary measures which only the Congress can provide, and they must be provided at this session. The old code of equity law under which we live commands for every wrong a remedy, but in too many communities, in too many parts of the country, wrongs are inflicted on Negro citizens and there are no remedies at law. Unless the Congress acts, their only remedy is in the street.

I am, therefore, asking the Congress to enact legislation giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities which are open to the public-hotels, restaurants, theaters, retail stores, and similar establishments.

This seems to me to be an elementary right. Its denial is an arbitrary indignity that no American in 1963 should have to endure, but many do.

I have recently met with scores of business leaders urging them to take voluntary action to end this discrimination and I have been encouraged by their response, and in the last 2 weeks over 75 cities have seen progress made in desegregating these kinds of facilities. But many are unwilling to act alone, and for this reason, nationwide legislation is needed if we are to move this problem from the streets to the courts.

I am also asking Congress to authorize the Federal Government to participate more fully in lawsuits designed to end segregation in public education. We have succeeded in persuading many districts to de-segregate voluntarily. Dozens have admitted Negroes without violence. Today a Negro is attending a State-supported institution in every one of our 50 States, but the pace is very slow.

Too many Negro children entering segregated grade schools at the time of the Supreme Court's decision 9 years ago will enter segregated high schools this fall, having suffered a loss which can never be restored. The lack of an adequate education denies the Negro a chance to get a decent job.

The orderly implementation of the Supreme Court decision, therefore, cannot be left solely to those who may not have the economic resources to carry the legal action or who may be subject to harassment.

Other features will be also requested, including greater protection for the right to vote. But legislation, I repeat, cannot solve this problem alone. It must be solved in the homes of every American in every community across our country.

In this respect, I want to pay tribute to those citizens North and South who have been working in their communities to make life better for all. They are acting not out of a sense of legal duty but out of a sense of human decency.

Like our soldiers and sailors in all parts of the world they are meeting freedom's challenge on the firing line, and I salute them for their honor and their courage.

My fellow Americans, this is a problem which faces us all-in every city of the North as well as the South. Today there are Negroes unemployed, two or three times as many compared to whites, inadequate in education, moving into the large cities, unable to find work, young people particularly out of work without hope, denied equal rights, denied the opportunity to eat at a restaurant or lunch counter or go to a movie theater, denied the right to a decent education, denied almost today the right to attend a State university even though qualified. It seems to me that these are matters which concern us all, not merely Presidents or Congressmen or Governors, but every citizen of the United States.

This is one country.

It has become one country because all of us and all the people who came here had an equal chance to develop their talents.

We cannot say to 10 percent of the population that you can't have that right; that your children can't have the chance to develop whatever talents they have; that the only way that they are going to get their rights is to go into the streets and demonstrate. I think we owe them and we owe ourselves a better country than that.

Therefore, I am asking for your help in making it easier for us to move ahead and to provide the kind of equality of treatment which we would want ourselves; to give a chance for every child to be educated to the limit of his talents.

As I have said before, not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or an equal motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves.

We have a right to expect that the Negro community will be responsible, will uphold the law, but they have a right to expect that the law will be fair, that the Constitution will be color blind, as Justice Harlan said at the turn of the century.

This is what we are talking about and this is a matter which concerns this country and what it stands for, and in meeting it I ask the support of all our citizens.

Thank you very much.
 
2014-05-25 12:44:03 AM  
This thread is like a giant honeypot for racist farkheads. Filled with delicious, sticky honey.
 
2014-05-25 12:45:02 AM  

Waldo Pepper: taurusowner: OK. Find me someone who was a slave, find someone who owned slaves, and make them pay the first person reparations. If you can't do that, shut the fark up about it. If you weren't a slave, you aren't owed shiat for slavery. If you didn't own slaves, you don't owe anyone shiat for slavery.

Your crimes are yours, mine are mine. I will not pay for yours, and I will not ask you to pay for mine.

I have a cousin who's was a slave along with her brother's and mom in Brazil in the 60's but I guess that doesn't count for this discussion


Actually that does count. If those people who really were slaves can find the people responsible, and there was some way to make them pay reparations, they absolutely should.

Consider a parallel to the way people still hunt Nazi concentration camp officers. These are guys who are in their 80s and 90s. And yet when they find one, every attempt is made at bringing them to justice for the crimes they personally did commit or oversaw. That is entirely justified. But would it be justified to send their children or grandchildren to prison because of what their parent or grandparent did? Of course not. Once the people who actually committed the crimes die, it's over. You cannot justly go after their descendants just because you couldn't get to them in time. Your children do not inherit your guilt for anything. Not for stealing a TV, not for running a concentration camp, and not for slavery. I'm sorry that those responsible were never properly brought to justice for slavery. But they're dead and that's that. Their great grandchildren do not owe anyone anything for crimes that happened a century+ before they were even born.
 
2014-05-25 12:46:26 AM  

The Southern Dandy: OK, so we should cut a check for $.01 to any black person.  I'm cool with that.  Not sure how that penny will be any different from the apology that was already issued by congress.


If you could possibly sit down and dedicate an hour or two to reading the article, you could understand the foundational issues.  In fact, the author doesn't talk about monetary damages - it's about structure, and by all available statistical evidence, the structural impediments to black advancement remain to this day.  (little nugget FTA - statistically, a white felon is as likely to get hired as a black person with a clean record).

Address those, and you'll get to the post-racial society you wish already existed.  And it could be done within a generation.

But hey, if you want to drag this out longer, that's fine.  Let your kids deal with it.  They might be more open minded than you.

Betep: 40 acres and a mule  DIVIDED BY (Babby Momma x Babby Daddy)= ?
 
the seventh of 13 children,

13 kids is just too damn many.


Wow.  This thread is full of crazy racists.  I'm going to bed.
 
2014-05-25 12:48:12 AM  
"Having read the article I know you do not mean white folks writing checks to black folks. So in an ideal world what form would reparations take?"

"In an ideal world, when we talk about social justice we would understand it as part of healing that heritage and dealing with that legacy. So, for instance, take healthcare right now, when you look at a whole swath of where we had enslavement, we had plantation slavery on a very very deep level, and you look at that and say 'why is there not a medicaid expansion?' We would be very clear about why there's not one going on right now. And those of us who make policy, those of us who have power, who sit on our courts, would think about that when we make rulings. We wouldn't be afraid to say that.

Right now in following John Roberts line, I think what he said is 'to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race'. What we want is a kind of color-blindness, we think that's the answer. But color blindness isn't the answer. Color isn't the problem! Racism is the problem. And being conscious of racism is the solution. It would like to see that in our policy. One of the attacks from the right, from Rush Limbaugh is, 'this is reparations'. Well not quite, but it could be. It would be nice of that was a part of it. I would be nice if you would actually say that. Outside of politics, yeah this will disproportionately benefit African-Americans, and yeah that's a really really good thing. It might actually help heal this heritage that we have. And in ideal world you could actually say that. In a world in which people are actively considering reparations, and actively thinking about it, and talking about it in a serious way, you could say that." Link
 
2014-05-25 12:50:30 AM  

jso2897: They are terrified that someone might take away from them something they never earned and don't own to begin with.


But they did inherit the "labors" of their ancestors who killed off the natives, exploited generations of slave labor, and systematically stole any accumulation of wealth on the part of the descendants of slaves.

It's not white guilt, it's human understanding. If we can actually examine the problems caused by generations of institutionalized bias, we might start to see some solutions.
 
2014-05-25 12:50:45 AM  
Miss Alexandra 2014-05-25 12:30:52 AM

I'm oppressed because all of you believe in the vile unbiblical satanic concept that the Earth actually orbits the Sun.

Go tell it to the Horse Marines.
 
2014-05-25 12:50:53 AM  

eljasbo: Isn't affirmative action the reparations? That is in itself it's own form of racism.


Alex, I'll take "How to drive a wedge" for 200
 
2014-05-25 12:52:08 AM  

moothemagiccow: As far as I can tell, the whole "institutional racism" thing is just recreational outrage.


Wow, dude.  So there's the whole thing in TFA about racial policies w/r/t real estate, and given the reality that that's how the middle class built wealth here in the US during the 20th century, it has some pretty heavy effects.

And then there's the whole war on drugs, which can't possibly get more institutional.

moothemagiccow: //dnrtfa


Well, that's obvious.
 
2014-05-25 12:52:26 AM  

acohn: lizaardvark: IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?

An entire country. See "Liberia".

How's that workin' out for them?


Old people are buying their overpriced commemorative coins that are legal tender in Liberia.
 
2014-05-25 12:52:27 AM  
Us Indians get paid first, right?
 
2014-05-25 12:52:33 AM  
So, when they tracked down all that art and treasure that the Nazis stole, and confiscated it from the heirs of those now- dead Nazis, and returned it to the descendants of the also now-dead Jews they stole it from, that was wrong? Because all culpability and liability ends at the moment of death? I don't think so.
If I enjoy wealth and social privilege that were stolen from your ancestors, and that you do not enjoy - are you and me just squaresy waresy, and everything cool? If so, you're a bigger man than I am.
 
2014-05-25 12:52:45 AM  

kriegsgeist: This thread is like a giant honeypot for racist farkheads. Filled with delicious, sticky honey.


Oh get off it. We're all racist.

Babwa Wawa: Address those, and you'll get to the post-racial society you wish already existed.  And it could be done within a generation.


Explain how. You already shot down reparations. I'm blackballing affirmative action. Go.
 
2014-05-25 12:53:04 AM  

moothemagiccow: //dnrtfa
//tl;dr


This was posted upthread, but for anyone who wants to look like they RTFA when they didn't, try this:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/05/22/314881767/how-to-tell -i f-someones-actually-read-ta-nehisi-coates-essay
 
2014-05-25 12:53:38 AM  
I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.
 
2014-05-25 12:54:37 AM  

ox45tallboy: jso2897: They are terrified that someone might take away from them something they never earned and don't own to begin with.

But they did inherit the "labors" of their ancestors who killed off the natives, exploited generations of slave labor, and systematically stole any accumulation of wealth on the part of the descendants of slaves.

It's not white guilt, it's human understanding. If we can actually examine the problems caused by generations of institutionalized bias, we might start to see some solutions.


Fear makes people irrational, man. I don't know what else to tell you.
 
2014-05-25 12:55:21 AM  
What I am hearing, even if it is not being stated in as many words, is this notion that the African, and by extension the African-American is too intellectually inferior in order to advance their position.

The fact that the African continent has been abused by colonial powers in the past and still is abused by multi-national corporations doesn't count.

The fact that there are entire volumes of encyclopedias that can be written on all the specific codified law that went into disassembling both the franchise of the African American and his economic agency, all of that doesn't count.

The fact that the way we treat crime in American is skewed heavily toward treating whites like 'normal' and Black and Brown people like 'animals waiting to reoffend' doesn't count.

Everything we as a country have done to the people within our borders, and what we as a global society have done just... doesn't count.

It's the black man's fault he gets sentenced at a disproportionately high rate.
It's the black woman's fault that her unplanned pregnancy is a sign of moral and logical failure.
It's the black child's fault his schools are falling apart and he is almost destined to the traps of the previous two.

Is that what we are really saying?

I honestly want to know...
 
2014-05-25 12:55:30 AM  
taurusowner:

Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.


The last panel of the cartoon is the most relevant one to this article (specifically the very last line spoken by the white character: "If I made it up here by myself, why can't you?")

Again...it's not just about slavery. If slavery had ended and white America collectively said: "You know what? You people got a shiatty deal. Well, that ends starting right now. You have the exact same rights that we do and we will make sure that is legally enforced. Not only that, we will view you and treat you as our equals, and welcome you into a fully integrated society."

If that attitude had prevailed in 1865 and black people still had the exact same problems that we do now...I'd completely agree with you. But as we both know...that shiat didn't happen. Just the opposite in fact. Which is the entire point of the article.
 
2014-05-25 12:55:50 AM  

Kittypie070: then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place?


i1.ytimg.com
"And I'm rich!"

 
2014-05-25 12:57:04 AM  

Babwa Wawa: moothemagiccow: As far as I can tell, the whole "institutional racism" thing is just recreational outrage.

Wow, dude.  So there's the whole thing in TFA about racial policies w/r/t real estate, and given the reality that that's how the middle class built wealth here in the US during the 20th century, it has some pretty heavy effects.

And then there's the whole war on drugs, which can't possibly get more institutional.

moothemagiccow: //dnrtfa

Well, that's obvious.


I didn't say it wasn't real. That's dumb. Colleges study it, journalists write these articles, slacktivists share them on facebook and get super mad about the ebil white men, and nothing farking happens because no one knows what to do about it.
 
2014-05-25 12:57:05 AM  

Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


Well, how YOU doin'?
i18.photobucket.com
 
2014-05-25 01:00:15 AM  
Hey NASA, you just burnt up a shuttle on re-entry! There's scrap metal and pieces of dead people fallin outta the sky!

NO WE UTTERLY REFUSE TO EXAMINE OUR FLAWED SAFETY CULTURE NO NO NO WAAH

WE WON'T ATTEMPT TO FIX ANYTHING EITHER YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GUILT TRIP US.


Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.
 
2014-05-25 01:00:17 AM  
Pfft. Most of the people my family used to own are doing far better than I am. Karma already paid reparations for me.
 
2014-05-25 01:01:49 AM  

jso2897: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


Well, how YOU doin'?
[i18.photobucket.com image 160x120]


I'm fine because I took the time to read the farking article.
 
2014-05-25 01:03:54 AM  

Strolpol: I see this thread was roughly as successful as I envisioned it'd be.

It was a good article. The stuff about how the housing market screwed over generations of blacks was particularly enlightening. I knew Chicago always had issues with integration, but I was unaware that there was an entire secondary market based entirely around forcing any black that wanted to buy a home to do so through incredibly unscrupulous predatory lenders.

I knew, when I read the article, that most people would probably just see the title and write it off as the libbiest lib dream that ever libbed, but it was insightful and informative. I expect I won't see another like it for some time.


Sadly, a story like this always brings out the bigots (and the shills who either act like bigots or are our local Stormfront rejects).  I liked what I've read of the article so far, and really need to finish it tomorrow.
 
2014-05-25 01:04:23 AM  
Democrat leadership has ensured that African Americans as a whole will never be able to compete.  Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc make too much money on racial inequality.  Why have blacks lagged so far behind Asians, the Irish, Latinos and every other single minority that was poorly mistreated at one point in time in our country?
 
2014-05-25 01:05:19 AM  
Fer chrissakes... it's not about you or some sins-of-the-father accounting, but you'd know that IF YOU READ THE BEAUTIFULLY-WRITTEN ARTICLE YOU ILLITERATE SHRIEKBAGS.
 
2014-05-25 01:05:54 AM  
I did nothing wrong

except for every single "post" you've ever made on fark dot com
 
2014-05-25 01:06:12 AM  

Miss Alexandra: Never mind that blacks owned slaves too.  In fact the first slave owner in America was--wait for it!--black!  http://topconservativenews.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was - a-black-man/

What about Arabs involved in the slave trade?  Why aren't the race hustlers shaking them down?  (Maybe they're afraid that the Arabs will declare jihad?  Who knows....)

How about the fact that slavery still goes on in Africa even today?

You can take that white guilt, shine it up, turn it sideways (I think you know the rest)....

As far as I'm concerned, blacks have already gotten reparations.  It's known as Section 8, welfare, and various other kinds of freebies.

Victimhood is an industry nowadays, it seems....


Damn, you're ugly.
 
2014-05-25 01:07:05 AM  

I Browse: taurusowner:

Yeah except for the cute little cartoon leaves out the fact that both of the people in that situation are DEAD and have been for a century. Their grandchildren are not responsible for actions that took place before they were born.


The last panel of the cartoon is the most relevant one to this article (specifically the very last line spoken by the white character: "If I made it up here by myself, why can't you?")

Again...it's not just about slavery. If slavery had ended and white America collectively said: "You know what? You people got a shiatty deal. Well, that ends starting right now. You have the exact same rights that we do and we will make sure that is legally enforced. Not only that, we will view you and treat you as our equals, and welcome you into a fully integrated society."

If that attitude had prevailed in 1865 and black people still had the exact same problems that we do now...I'd completely agree with you. But as we both know...that shiat didn't happen. Just the opposite in fact. Which is the entire point of the article.


Over 1500 blacks were elected to state and federal offices before 1875. But that doesn't count, any more than President Obama counts. Nope, because America had slavery when it was first created, it must be drained of money and torn down, so a new and perfect country can be built in its place.

/and when nothing gets built in its place, it won't be the fault of the looters who destroyed it, of course
//it will all be blamed on the people who failed to be perfect enough to create the perfect nation that worked perfectly on paper
 
2014-05-25 01:08:35 AM  
i apologize in advance to fark server admins for potentially crashing the machine that handles my ignore list
 
2014-05-25 01:08:46 AM  

Nemo's Brother: Why have blacks lagged so far behind Asians, the Irish, Latinos and every other single minority that was poorly mistreated at one point in time in our country?


That is the question.
It is answered in the article referred to here.
Please read it.
 
2014-05-25 01:09:24 AM  

Kittypie070: jso2897: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

Well, how YOU doin'?
[i18.photobucket.com image 160x120]

I'm fine because I took the time to read the farking article.


Me too. I think one or two other people did , also. No more than about a half dozen, though.
 
2014-05-25 01:11:15 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Black people should not look to whites for charity forever. What we lack is self help and self reliance. We are always wanting somebody to do something for us. As a race we are too envious, malicious and superficial, and because of this we keep ourselves back------MARCUS GARVEY (from his lecture at Collegiate Hall in Kingston Jamaica , given in 1915)


Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?
 
2014-05-25 01:12:13 AM  

moothemagiccow: Explain how. You already shot down reparations. I'm blackballing affirmative action. Go.


Since you're blackballing affirmative action, it would seem that you're asking me for a solution to a problem you don't seem to think exists.   Which leads me to think that you're not going to take any of my suggestions seriously.

Not that you should.  I'm no sociologist - I've only read on the evidence of the imbalance, rather than the possibilities of rectification.

Still,  I can think up a number of ways - re-written residential mortgage rules, a beefed up FHA, more teeth to equal education regulation.  If you gave me some time, I could really think up a slew of meaningful things which would have measurable impact.

This all would depend on folks like yourself admitting that there's a problem in the first place, an admission of which doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
 
2014-05-25 01:13:34 AM  
So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?
 
2014-05-25 01:13:51 AM  

BlueDWarrior: It's the black man's fault...
It's the black woman's fault...
It's the black child's fault...

Is that what we are really saying?

I honestly want to know...


I, for one, was not taught that when I was growing up. I don't believe it and I never have.
 
2014-05-25 01:13:51 AM  

Jackson Herring: i apologize in advance to fark server admins for potentially crashing the machine that handles my ignore list


Your mother has poor judgment and I never loved you
 
2014-05-25 01:14:24 AM  

The Southern Dandy: I'm curious as to who gets the reparations?  Anyone with black skin?  What about white descendants of black slaves? What about blacks whose ancestors were not slaves?  Who decides?


Quit being obtuse and read the damn article.

We ALL would benefit from unraveling the institutional discrimination that exists everywhere in the American system.  So we should ALL contribute towards its reduction.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:06 AM  
I only read parts I and II, because TFA is incredibly long, but what's described boils down to the rich people taking advantage of the poor people. That's a universal constant, regardless of culture and time. Poor whites were/are hit just as hard by unfair economic practices as were poor blacks, but blacks were hit all the harder because they disproportionately lacked/lack the education to understand a bad deal when they're presented with one and the connections to fight it once they realize what's going on. The exact same thing happens to poorly educated and poorly connected people of all races, but when you compound that on top of institutionalized racism you get a cultural death-spiral that results in the ghettos and communities described in TFA.

With respect to reparations:

1) The injustice inflicted on poor and black families is fundamentally a theft of opportunity. Any reparations should be about restoring opportunity: job training, scholarships, affirmative action where it will help, and even cash in the form of start-up grants for businesses operating in minority areas or owned by minorities are all acceptable, but just no-strings cash is stupid and morally reprehensible.

2) As I said above, the economic injustices are perpetrated by specific rich people onto poor people. Maximum justice would be to levy fines and taxes on those specific people, families, and institutions that economically benefited from abuse of minorities. For example, levy a use tax on the country club that was sized from southern blacks. In general, poor southern whites didn't benefit from slavery in the way that the landowners did, and in particular they didn't institutionalize the economic discrimination.

3) Enact legislation that requires states to equally fund education across all communities. Regardless of the how and why, the current state of affairs is that there are a lot of poor black communities that just can't afford to educate their kids as well as affluent communities. Tying school funding to the economic performance of local communities (which is the way it's largely done now) is a recipe for enduring inequality for all poor communities, whether they are predominantly black, or rural, or what have you. This isn't even a reparation, it's just universal fairness.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:29 AM  

Rincewind53: Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.

If you read the article, it's not about slavery reparations. In fact, it's primarily about reparations for the ongoing system of white supremacy enshrined in the government until extremely recently, like how even until less than 50 years ago, the Federal Government would not give secured loans to anyone living in ANY black neighborhood (redlining).

And "sundown towns", which were towns where blacks were not allowed on the streets after dark, existed until the 1980s. I was born less than five years after the last sundown down went away.

The Irish, the Chinese, and others had it bad. But they did not have it nearly as bad or for nearly as long, nor was the entire modern country of America built on centuries of their suffering. Our current cities are massively shaped by white supremacist  laws and policies from when your parents were born. It is hypocritical for Americans to claim the heritage of Valley Forge and the Declaration of Independence and then dismiss white supremacy as "just the past."


Sundown towns went away? People in Elwood Indiana would beg to differ.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:31 AM  

moothemagiccow: because no one knows what to do about it.


And that - right there -  you've nailed it.  This is exactly what the author is calling for.  A recognized study of the reality that we all know exists, so that we might come to some agreement around what to do about it.
 
2014-05-25 01:15:57 AM  

Pokey.Clyde: So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?


No.
 
2014-05-25 01:16:07 AM  

ox45tallboy: No Such Agency: vernonFL: [www.normanadams.org image 850x540]

Norman Rockwell could paint corny wholesome Americana with the best of them, but when he laid down the hammer, he farking laid it down.  That painting, as stylized and as intentionally string-pulling as it is, gives me the chills every single time.

I like this pic:

[www.eurweb.com image 850x566]

The woman Obama is talking to is Ruby Bridges, the little girl in the painting.

They're viewing the painting in the White House.


That's pretty cool. I like this one:
i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-25 01:16:23 AM  

Pokey.Clyde: So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?


Well, that almost nobody commenting about the article in the thread actually read it, having a coherent conversation about it HAS been a tad problematic.
 
2014-05-25 01:17:09 AM  

Kittypie070: eriously, that's how some of y'all sound.


LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!
 
2014-05-25 01:17:36 AM  
You know, even as a resident Fark conservative troll, nothing in that article can be dismissed out of hand.  In fact, it's a fantastic basis for actually having an adult conversation about racism in the US, the legacy of it, and how to treat the repercussions that still exist today.  We aren't going to get anywhere denying that there isn't a structural, institutional bias against black Americans that exists today in a barely less destructive form than has existed for the entire history of the country.  Everything from how schools are funded to how wealth is accumulated is designed to disproportionately affect black Americans negatively, and if we don't at least acknowledge that, then we're going to be stuck with bullshiat "solutions" that treat symptoms instead of fixing the problem.  Forced busing treated a symptom, and affirmative action treats a symptom, but there are very few good suggestions about solving the actual problem.

Think about it this way: an inner-city urban "yute" is statistically all but guaranteed to be farked for life.  You might reach 1-2% who manage to escape the cycle of poverty if you're lucky.  Outside of getting adopted at birth, that's by design.  They are born poor, go to underfunded schools because schools are primarily funded with local taxes, live in neighborhoods with no economic base beyond illegal trade, and that's all by design.  Those neighborhoods exist because that's where more privileged people decided they were going to live.

And he's even hitting the nail on the head about reparations.  He's not asking for direct payment to make up for past sins, he's asking to use public money to fundamentally change the system that churns out, for lack of a better term, legacy life failures.

All in all, it was a very well written article that at least outlines the HOW of institutional racism.
 
2014-05-25 01:17:57 AM  
I pay all my taxes. beyond that, I don't owe anyone anything. I'm not responsible for anything somebodies granpappie did.
 
2014-05-25 01:18:02 AM  
Abox: Seriously?  There are people who think blacks have been given NO extra help ever?


Let me put it to you this way. Are you a football fan? If so, are you familiar with the concept of a "make up call"...? I'll paint a scenario for you:

We start the game and the black team is already down 35 points before the first kickoff. But okay, fine. We'll try for the miracle comeback. Then on the very first play from scrimmage...every player on the white team gang tackles our quarterback, breaks his arms, his legs, and severs his spine...then they do the exact same thing to our back up quarterbacks. The white team then scores another 49 unanswered points. But somewhere in the 3rd quarter, the white team realizes this has gotten completely out of hand. They start to feel bad for running up the score. So what do they do? They penalize themselves 15 yards on the ensuing kickoff.

And with that they say: "You're welcome. Now let's play some football and no more damn whining, ya hear!"
 
2014-05-25 01:18:28 AM  

Waldo Pepper: shut up the Sharpton's/Jackson race baiting money machines.


There you go again.

Stop digging.
 
2014-05-25 01:19:02 AM  
look this article was waaay too long so i only read the title but give me a moment so i can explain how racism is over
 
2014-05-25 01:20:22 AM  

Brick-House: [www.weeklystandard.com image 640x467]


Let's throw the DoD budget on there, just for shiats and giggles.
 
2014-05-25 01:20:22 AM  

sprgrss: You'll be hard pressed to find many people who were responsible for instituting redlining still in any position of authority


If you're not going to read the article, at least read the goddamn Fark headline!
 
2014-05-25 01:22:01 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.

LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!


ZOMGs Babwa Wawa PETTED MEEEE!!!1!

You're nice :)
 
2014-05-25 01:23:21 AM  

Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and society as he does, merely by their loosely shared skin color, so why should we give him a pass for lumping multiple distinct "white" peoples, such as the Irish, Scots, German, English, and more into one general group to pass judgment upon for the actions of generations past of various groups of a far different society?

And I quote: This was 1947, eight years before Mississippi lynched Emmett Till and tossed his broken body into the Tallahatchie River. The whole state, according to Coates. Not the two men who did it, and the jury who let them go, the whole state, for and against civil rights, lynched Till.  Coates does this repeatedly, without any hint of irony or self-awareness, even as he brushes by North Lawndale's homicide rate as a horrible statistic, but not indicative of any internal problem but only to compare it to the national average as if it is somehow induced from outside.

It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.
 
2014-05-25 01:24:45 AM  
So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.
 
2014-05-25 01:25:48 AM  
I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.  I have work in the morning or I'd read it now.  Granted I won't likely agree with it.  I'll tell you why.

Yes I am (mostly) caucasian.  That doesn't mean quite what you think it means.  You read that and you ASSUME... my ancestors benefited from slave labor.  But they did not.  My ancestors - most of them also caucasians as it where - did not own slaves.  No they didn't own a single slave.  In fact, that is a fact in more caucasian families than most realize.

I'd like to assume myself that the reason they did not own any slaves had to do with good moral standing, but that is likely not the case at all.  The far more likely scenario is this - slaves where expensive and my ancestors where poor.  The vast overwhelming majority of slaves where owned by RICH ELITE FAMILIES - most of those families themselves descended of European royalty and nobility.

These families once had serfs but after serfdom ended they turned to slaves - a distinction with little difference mind you.  Both are terrible and blatantly barbaric systems where the few elite exploit the forced labor of other people - people who are "beneath their master/lord."  The master/lord gets rich through no effort of his own.  My ancestors from even longer back where likely serfs themselves.  Hey how about my reparations?  Not happening I know.  My ancestors being made to serve a master of the same skin color somehow isn't as bad... or something.

Anyhow these families descended of royalty and nobility primarily moved into the South and setup plantations.  The Southern mentality that says people always have what they deserve (and thus all the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor, while all the rich deserve to be rich).  In those day they where more fond of claiming it "God's will."  But that i where your Southern Conservative mentality comes from - as it continues to persist today.

These are the people who owned nearly all the slaves.  These are the people who immorally profited off slave labor.  For the most part their descendents are the elite rich of today.

That being the case, taxing all those of European heritage and giving the proceeds to those of African heritage is not justified.  Tax only the super-wealthy and use it to provide the descendants of slaves with reparations?  That I can agree with far more.

Now one other thing everyone should start to realize - there are people now who are making every attempt to reinstate de-facto serfdom, only they aren't calling it that now.  They use buzz words like "free market," "trickle down," etc and talk plenty of "Liberty" and "Freedom" but they really mean the "Freedom"  of the wealthy elite to exploit the poor more completely than they already do right now.

It is true that statistically those Americans of African descent are being held down - but primarily their race is NOT the prime factor anymore.  They continue to suffer from a legacy of poverty - one generation to the next.  The racism is a distraction from what is really holding them down... classism.  If you want to really help them - a lump some payout is a very poor way indeed.  All that money will be gone in no time.

What they really need is socio-economic reforms that benefit the poor.  Americans of African descent ARE disproportionately poor.  Policies that give poor people a chance will therefore disproportionately benefit Americans of African descent for purely statistical reasons.   But once you start putting all this together... you understand why the elites continue to promote racial tension.  The elite want all the fruits of this nation to themselves - and so to avoid paying us back what they owe us... they pit different races of poor people against each other.  I can't help but admit that their strategy is VERY effective.

Anyhow instead of a lump sum payout, what Americans of African descent actually need is a fair chance at being successful.  They don't have it right now.  Through better socio-economic reforms (notably among them things like minimum wage increases) - and especially through providing the poor better education and training - they will be able to climb up the ladder themselves.
 
2014-05-25 01:25:48 AM  
Nice to see an interesting and thoughtful article on Fark, though I wish I hadn't bothered to read the comments. For some reason, certain individuals seem to have a recurring issue where they confuse guilt ("White" or otherwise) with empathy, a quality they are apparently lacking.
 
2014-05-25 01:26:08 AM  

Pokey.Clyde: So, let me get this straight. This thread basically boils down to this:

Farker1:  You're a doodie head!
Farker2:  No, you're a doodie head!
Babwa Wawa:  YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE!WARGARBL!

Am I close?


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-05-25 01:26:29 AM  
The people who engaged in slavery are long dead, but the institutions that benefited from it, as well as post-slavery bigotry and racism, are still around. It is fairly easy to prove which specific institutions implemented post-slavery practices against the Africa-American populace. So I propose a "corporate reparations tax". For example, every bank (or whatever current bank who nows owns that bank) that participated in writing pays, say, 10% of its revenue into this tax. Higher institutions of learning that prevented blacks from being admitted or had restrictive quotas will be taxed at 10% of their endowment value. Take the money to fund the solutions mentioned in the article. Include church institutions that justified slavery as part of "God's plan" as well.

Details need to be ironed out but it is fair. This way we stop the individual "but my family never owned slaves" wailing, but target the real villains of post-slavery repression that has impacted African-American culture to this day.
 
2014-05-25 01:27:00 AM  

Lsherm: You know, even as a resident Fark conservative troll, nothing in that article can be dismissed out of hand.  In fact, it's a fantastic basis for actually having an adult conversation about racism in the US, the legacy of it, and how to treat the repercussions that still exist today.  We aren't going to get anywhere denying that there isn't a structural, institutional bias against black Americans that exists today in a barely less destructive form than has existed for the entire history of the country.  Everything from how schools are funded to how wealth is accumulated is designed to disproportionately affect black Americans negatively, and if we don't at least acknowledge that, then we're going to be stuck with bullshiat "solutions" that treat symptoms instead of fixing the problem.  Forced busing treated a symptom, and affirmative action treats a symptom, but there are very few good suggestions about solving the actual problem.

Think about it this way: an inner-city urban "yute" is statistically all but guaranteed to be farked for life.  You might reach 1-2% who manage to escape the cycle of poverty if you're lucky.  Outside of getting adopted at birth, that's by design.  They are born poor, go to underfunded schools because schools are primarily funded with local taxes, live in neighborhoods with no economic base beyond illegal trade, and that's all by design.  Those neighborhoods exist because that's where more privileged people decided they were going to live.

And he's even hitting the nail on the head about reparations.  He's not asking for direct payment to make up for past sins, he's asking to use public money to fundamentally change the system that churns out, for lack of a better term, legacy life failures.

All in all, it was a very well written article that at least outlines the HOW of institutional racism.


And guess what, the poor whites who live in trailer parks in Bumfark, Arkansas are just as royally screwed as the poor black that lives in the middle of South Central.

But we don't EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discuss how to rectify the institutional biases and outright denigration of those who are born in the delapitaed urban core or the equally delapitated rural town/exurb.

Basically our entire policy is focused on the lily white Suburbs, and centralized on the gated communities that the ones with true wealth sequester themselves in.

And that is the discussion the people who live in those places do not want us all to have, because that might mean the focus on society becomes a holistic one, instead of one only focused on what THEY want.

/ why yes I am making a class war argument
// the wealthy are winning and the suburbanites are their foot soldiers
/// Don't be surprised when bricks start flying through windows like they do about every 30-40 years...
 
2014-05-25 01:27:19 AM  

Kittypie070: Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.

LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!

ZOMGs Babwa Wawa PETTED MEEEE!!!1!

You're nice :)


Yeah, we can make nice on this stuff, but we'll always have our disagreement on the bureaucracy of NASA in the mid-2000s, won't we?
 
2014-05-25 01:27:25 AM  

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


That's why smart people see to it that those they have f**ked over in the past get made whole BEFORE they get into that position.
 
2014-05-25 01:28:06 AM  

bk3k: I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.  I have work in the morning or I'd read it now.  Granted I won't likely agree with it.  I'll tell you why.


There is ZERO reason to read your comment, then. Thanks for the warning!
 
2014-05-25 01:28:27 AM  
Nutter turned to those presumably fatherless babies: "Pull your pants up and buy a belt, because no one wants to see your underwear or the crack of your butt.") The thread is as old as black politics itself. It is also wrong. The kind of trenchant racism

No it's not racist. I do not want to see African-American underwear and buttcracks. And I also do not want to see Caucasian-American underwear and buttcracks.
 
2014-05-25 01:28:27 AM  

garkola: What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.


Pretty sure "Never Again" is a promise and a threat, not whining.
 
2014-05-25 01:28:53 AM  

Boojum2k: A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim.


This is why people need to RTFA.  For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.
 
2014-05-25 01:30:16 AM  

Babwa Wawa: This is why people need to RTFA. For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.


I read it. I agreed with a good portion of it. I picked apart the points I found lacking, and explained those as well.
 
2014-05-25 01:30:36 AM  

Jackson Herring: i apologize in advance to fark server admins for potentially crashing the machine that handles my ignore list


See?  We're not that different!  You add people to your ignore list and I add stupid ideas like reparations to mine.

We're all the same, really!
 
2014-05-25 01:30:57 AM  

Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and society a ...


The reason for that is that we are all in a general sense responsible for the society we create. A society that lets something like that happens is the fault, to some small degree, to all who are enfranchised or has agency within it.

The fault of specific actions lie with the specific actors, the fault for the conditions for those actions lie with all those who are in some part responsible for said conditions.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:36 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Boojum2k: A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim.

This is why people need to RTFA.  For those fatigued (white) Americans, it's an eye-opener.


Give it up, Babs - nobody is going to read that article.Especially not the people who are really pissed off about it.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:39 AM  

Waldo Pepper: poot_rootbeer: Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?

American



No, seriously.  What color are you?

I'm white, and that's relevant to everything that's happened to me in my life.
 
2014-05-25 01:31:55 AM  

bk3k: I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.


I believe this thread will still be open once you read it tomorrow.  You may have a different perspective.  Give it some time, and try not to read it on your phone.
 
2014-05-25 01:32:32 AM  

Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society.....It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.


Look, flawed as his argument is, and thanks BTW for pointing that out....it's at least a reasonabe attempt at a start.

And look at the part of your statement that I bolded. There's a step forward if I've ever seen one.

Add Fubini's and Lsherm's comments [among others] to that and we can actually get somewhere.
 
2014-05-25 01:32:55 AM  
If you can prove that you, personally, were held as a slave in the United States prior to the emancipation proclaimation, you should recieve a million dollars.
 
2014-05-25 01:34:05 AM  

BlueDWarrior: And guess what, the poor whites who live in trailer parks in Bumfark, Arkansas are just as royally screwed as the poor black that lives in the middle of South Central.

But we don't EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discuss how to rectify the institutional biases and outright denigration of those who are born in the delapitaed urban core or the equally delapitated rural town/exurb.

Basically our entire policy is focused on the lily white Suburbs, and centralized on the gated communities that the ones with true wealth sequester themselves in.

And that is the discussion the people who live in those places do not want us all to have, because that might mean the focus on society becomes a holistic one, instead of one only focused on what THEY want.

/ why yes I am making a class war argument
// the wealthy are winning and the suburbanites are their foot soldiers
/// Don't be surprised when bricks start flying through windows like they do about every 30-40 years...


I think the general idea, even though the article doesn't explicitly mention it, is that if you can manage to rectify a lot of the issues that affect poor black Americans the solution will rectify a lot of the issues with poor white Americans as well.  The geographical areas of concern are a little different, since extremely poor whites tend to be from sparsely populated rural areas, whereas we've managed to concentrate poor blacks in dense urban areas, but the underlying issues are the same: it's by design.
 
2014-05-25 01:36:57 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Waldo Pepper: poot_rootbeer: Waldo, what race do you self-identify as?

American


No, seriously.  What color are you?

I'm white, and that's relevant to everything that's happened to me in my life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY&feature=kp
 
2014-05-25 01:36:58 AM  

garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.


It's not about revenge. It's about the system not screwing us in the backside every time we try to exercise our agency. Which has only really existed for blacks at large in the last generation and a half.

It's still viciously difficult for the typical Black family to amass wealth, which is what you need for a truly vibrant community, because a lot of us have to work double time to just to run in place.

You are only now starting to see truly wealthy black families in the last generation and a half or so. Of course this creates class dissent within the community (see the talk of the bourgeois black person, acting white).

But that is a discussion for a different article.
 
2014-05-25 01:38:11 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Seriously, that's how some of y'all sound.

LOL.  I get that, and I'm probably the only one around here that does.

Cheers, Kitty!

ZOMGs Babwa Wawa PETTED MEEEE!!!1!

You're nice :)


Yeah, we can make nice on this stuff, but we'll always have our disagreement on the bureaucracy of NASA in the mid-2000s, won't we?


Yeah, and kiddies in restaurants :D
 
2014-05-25 01:38:26 AM  

bk3k: : I'll read TFA tomorrow.  I really will.

I believe this thread will still be open once you read it tomorrow.  You may have a different perspective.  Give it some time, and try not to read it on your phone.


I mean that phone thing not to be fussy or anything. I read it on my phone, and it was way too long and involved for that platform. To be honest, it begs for paper, but I know I'm not ordering any damned magazines.
 
2014-05-25 01:40:36 AM  

Waldo Pepper: I can believe that blacks aren't treated fair in this country and deserve some form of a break but at the same time be mad if I was passed over for a job simply due to the company having to hire a minority.


But you wouldn't feel that bad if the minority person was more qualified than you.

Which they would be if they had access to the same opportunities you do.
 
2014-05-25 01:40:37 AM  

Kittypie070: Yeah, and kiddies in restaurants :D


You've got me there. I don't even remember that.

So I guess you win on that one?
 
2014-05-25 01:41:12 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society. My personal anecdote: when I was in college, I worked security at a hotel. We were robbed at gunpoint by four young black men one night, and when they left, I followed them, and a police car happened to be pulling through the parking lot at the time. All of them were apprehended quickly, and they were found with the exact amount stolen in a hotel bag, the exact bandanas I saw and described that they were wearing on their faces, and the exact models of guns I had seen. Their defense at trial? Racism. I and the cops had just pulled over and picked out four (well, three, since one of them pled out to a lesser felony and testified against the rest) random black guys, they had never seen the materials that were in their car, had no idea where the money came from, and someone must have put the guns in there and planted residue on ones hands (he tried to shoot open the safe with a .22).

Coates does a very good job in describing the problem from a singular perspective, but outright ignores a lot of historical facts, and cherry-picks others to make the foundation for his summation, and then only offers any kind of solution in platitudes and one-sided concepts. Fair enough, but if he can't even be honest enough to acknowledge that lack, how do we start the rest of the conversation? How do we go from his editorial to treating people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? Because it is obvious to me that he has and should not be considered to have a connection with those four criminals, even though they exist in the same era and ...


Yeah, and some of us get equally mad when the name on the rejected resume said "DeQuan" instead of "Daniel"

But it is difficult to know why someone was rejected from hiring in exact terms, which makes Affirmative Action a half-measure at best, and really prone to creating resentment in other groups.

I would love it our society was truly race-neutral, but it would need to be class-neutral first; and I have my suspicions that race-neutral really means race-ignorant anyway, but that's just my personal paranoia.
 
2014-05-25 01:42:39 AM  
One of the most brilliant, informative articles I've ever read and still people argue with utterly stupid comments. It makes the writer's own point that it's not impracticality that stops us, it's something more existential. It's an unwillingness to admit the faults of our great republic. Which I think is sad, I think it's actually a lack of confidence in America, because I think we're big enough to overcome this.
 
2014-05-25 01:42:42 AM  
White ancestors of Union soldiers should be paid reparations from blacks and southern whites for freeing the slaves.
 
2014-05-25 01:44:15 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Go into Japanese neighborhoods, you don't see Negro stores. Go into China town, you don't see Negro stores. Go into Jew town, you don't see Negro stores. But come up here in black town and every kind of store is here but yours----MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)


Please, please, learn how to properly cite a quotation.

Better yet, express your views in your own words, rather than putting your intent into the words of men who died over 50 years ago.
 
2014-05-25 01:44:19 AM  
There is no racism in this country.

So say a bunch of class-dominant white people.
 
2014-05-25 01:44:37 AM  

Waldo Pepper: how do you know they didn't have the same opportunities that i had?


oh.  my. god.

Please.  PLEASE.  read the article.
 
2014-05-25 01:45:07 AM  

funmonger: Fer chrissakes... it's not about you or some sins-of-the-father accounting, but you'd know that IF YOU READ THE BEAUTIFULLY-WRITTEN ARTICLE YOU ILLITERATE SHRIEKBAGS.


Nice touch.  Is this how people who can understand and appreciate this type of article act?  Then I say, no thank you, kind sir.  If overbearing judgmental sanctimonious pricks are the type attracted to this article's content, I must say, nay.  Nay I say.
 
2014-05-25 01:45:31 AM  

Waldo Pepper: most events in my life my skin color has little to no bearing on, but i'm sure there has been times it has helped and some times the color of my skin hasn't helped


Why are you evading the question?
 
2014-05-25 01:45:41 AM  

Waldo Pepper: garkola: So, the question is, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to embark on some pointless quest to remedy injustices done a long time ago?

One thing that various ethnic groups have done to be successful is to band together to support each other. Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc all did. What you don't hear is those groups (well, except the Jews) whining about prior mistreatment.

And anyway, if you want revenge, you do it once you're in a position to extract it.

he reason that most black business fail, is because they are selling a product that they bought from white man. They themselves have gone to the white man, to purchase something to resale to you. Everything that's in the Negro store is a resale, and he has to resale it at a price high enough to get his investment back. The black person that's in business is acting as a salesman for the white wholesaler, and the white producer. The real owner of merchandise that the black business man is selling, is the white man. He robs you when he sells it to you, and you have to turn around and rob your people in order to get your money back, and then you wonder why they won't come in your store. As black people we have to learn to produce something. We have to be producers as well as consumers, and then we can set the sale price at a low cost. If you produced the product that you sold, then you would be eliminating the middle man, and you could sell to your people at a low cost. Everything that leaves your pocket goes into the pocket of the white man. We are being robbed because we produce nothing of our own. Mr. Muhammad said that we must be producers as well as consumers. I don't care if you have a million dollars business, if you are not producing anything, then you are just a rich slave. I don't care how wealthy you are, if you are not producing you are just a slave for your master. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that it is better to be independent, than dependent---MALCOLM X (from hi ...


Those quotes to me speak to one of the problems today. Black Wealth right now is being generated in mostly the entertainment pursuits because that is one of the few areas that we can have complete agency over. Two of the more celebrated instances of black wealth, Oprah Winfrey and Ervin Johnson got their money to start with by being entertainers (yes I lump pro athletes in with entertainers).

It has been notoriously difficult for Blacks to generate wealth by other means because we have to start from zero. And then we have to fight with everyone else that might already have in-roads to the marketplace just because of where they started at.

Eventually we as a people will get there, it's just that we are starting from really far behind.
 
2014-05-25 01:46:44 AM  

Waldo Pepper: MALCOLM X (from his speech called, Cooperative Economics)


You know, if you were to actually RTFA, you probably wouldn't be posting Malcolm X quotes which aren't really relevant to the subject. You might even post some that are such as:

Truth is on the side of the oppressed.
 
2014-05-25 01:48:58 AM  

trappedspirit: Nice touch.  Is this how people who can understand and appreciate this type of article act?  Then I say, no thank you, kind sir.  If overbearing judgmental sanctimonious pricks are the type attracted to this article's content, I must say, nay.  Nay I say.


"I dunno what it is, but if he's fer it... I'm agin' it!!!"
 
2014-05-25 01:50:15 AM  

Waldo Pepper: how do you know they didn't have the same opportunities that i had?


Because you're complaining about a minority getting a job that you believe yourself to be more qualified for, only on the basis of their race. What makes you more qualified?

Read the article.
 
2014-05-25 01:51:25 AM  
It will never work out. Our brains are too puny.
 
2014-05-25 01:51:29 AM  
Not sure if the point has already been made elsewhere in the thread, but this issue seems very much tied to our illustrious history of dicking over the poor. I'm not making any grand novel insight by linking our persistent history of denying black people opportunity to their present situation. However, if you really have a problem with the idea that any attempt to fix it is "white liberal guilt", look past the skin and think of it as a "how do we help the poor" type of problem. If we can manage to do that, it will positively affect the black poor community disproportionately to the white poor community, given the difference of the poverty rate of those races. That I think could be a type of "reparations".
 
2014-05-25 01:52:52 AM  

Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.


They are afraid, my kitteh.

I would ask this question, in the spirit of mediation and reconciliation, however:

Assuming that "reparations" is not meant in monetary terms, and dropping the lofty rhetoric: What exactly would "reparations" look like? What exactly is wanted here? And how will we know when we have achieved it?

And I would ask this of those advocating reparations also: How do we prevent this from becoming a quest for vengeance?

Having read that article, and it's an awesome article, I see a great deal that I already knew about the gross mistreatment, both intentional and unintentional, of blacks in America, from this nation's inception. I see very little that I didn't know. The truth is out there, even if it's been obscured or ignored. So what is desired, exactly? More acknowledgement of the facts? And if so, how and where and when? Reduction of the inequality imposed on blacks by fiat? That requires a realization that that same inequality was visited upon poor whites, at the same time, for the same reasons and by the same power structure (and if you don't know that, I recommend reading "Barn Burning" and "A Walk on the Wild Side" at your earliest convenience).

I would also warn that since the power structure is still intact, those seeking reparations realize that they are demanding recompense and understanding from the SAME POWER STRUCTURE that put them in that position in the first place. You are asking the wrongdoers to correct the wrongs while you are still in a position of weakness. This leads to cries for vengeance, not reconciliation. Both sides have to acknowledge there has been a wrong before a correction can be made, and so far, only one side believes there is a wrong that needs to be corrected (just flip through this thread to see if I am wrong).

Whites under the age of 50 don't believe that there is anything to fix. Whites making less than $30,000 per year will not listen to arguments like those presented in this article. Dispute resolution specialists will ask both sides: What do you want to achieve? Merely saying "let's study the problem" isn't good enough. What do you want to achieve? That is my question.
 
2014-05-25 01:53:33 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Yeah, and some of us get equally mad when the name on the rejected resume said "DeQuan" instead of "Daniel"


Coates mentions it in passing, but the racism still inherent in hiring is both obvious and quantifiable. As I'm sure you know, a "black" name can prevent people from hiring a candidate.

In fact, they've studied this by sending out identical resumes to employers, one with a stereotypically "white" name like John, and one with a stereotypically black name. Even though the resumes are identical, hiring managers rate the resume from the black candidate worse, and are more likely to hire the white candidate.

This is a great example of some of the really f*cked up entrenched racism in America.

On an unrelated note....
Admins, thanks for greening this. When I submitted it I knows there would be both racist idiots and people who refused to read the article and wanted to just babble on about how their parents didn't own slaves. But there have also been dozens of comments about appreciating the article, and I think it may do more good than harm. Thank you.
 
2014-05-25 01:53:53 AM  

Deep Contact: It will never work out. Our brains are too puny.


As evidenced by how many people stampeded directly this thread to post their insightful observations about slavery, welfare, and affirmative action.
 
2014-05-25 01:55:32 AM  

Kittypie070: Boojum2k: Kittypie070: I don't know what anyone has against actually examining an institutional or historical wrong, in an effort to correct it.

Some of you actually sound afraid.

A large part of it comes from people either afraid of or fatigued by the racism claim. It's been so overused, it's worn out any real value and is now just a conversation killer, even when it is accurately used to describe inequalities in society.....It doesn't appear anyone wants an honest conversation on racism and solutions, because everyone has something to lose in it. Nobody seems too concerned about what we might have to gain, or to describe what the resulting society would look like from their perspective.

Look, flawed as his argument is, and thanks BTW for pointing that out....it's at least a reasonabe attempt at a start.

And look at the part of your statement that I bolded. There's a step forward if I've ever seen one.

Add Fubini's and Lsherm's comments [among others] to that and we can actually get somewhere.


I'd like that, from the perspective of one lone white guy who can see some of his privileges even while probably missing seeing others and lacking some people think I should have. But it's a multi-way conversation, and nobody is going to be thrilled at the solutions because they will likely involve slaughtering a lot of sacred cows on all sides. Fubini has some excellent ideas for combatting the institutional parts, I will defer to him (her?) on that because I suspect they are somewhat wiser than me on the topic.

Another anecdote (because I can only really speak from my experience), of something that probably happens frequently and is likely usually mishandled. A couple of years ago, I handled routing and scheduling for a fairly major grocery warehouse. One week coming up on a holiday weekend, much like this one, a truck driver asked me on Thursday if there was any way possible he could be off that Saturday as he had a fishing trip to go on. I told him it was not likely, but I would see what I could do. He asked if I was refusing because he was black. I pointed at the posted vacation board, where people had selected their vacations at the beginning of the year, and showed him that of the four allowed off, three were black, but all had made their requests at vacation selection time. Of the five people already on the "leave me off if you can" list, four were black, and all five had requested the possibility of being off before him, listed in order of date of request. (I'm good at scheduling, but ten people off on a holiday weekend is not an easy task by any means). I then queried if he asked me that just because I was white. He looked confused for a moment, thought about it, and then apologized respectfully. I learned that being fair and always treating everyone with equal responsibility works, and he learned that not every negative decision affecting him was motivated by race. Incidentally, I managed to leave him off, as two people cancelled their plans and decided they wanted to work that weekend, but he was pleasantly surprised by that rather than automatically expecting it.

Teaching society that kind of lesson is going to take years. You don't take opportunities away from people, you try to open up more.
 
2014-05-25 01:59:01 AM  

I Browse: Abox: Seriously?  There are people who think blacks have been given NO extra help ever?


Let me put it to you this way. Are you a football fan? If so, are you familiar with the concept of a "make up call"...? I'll paint a scenario for you:

We start the game and the black team is already down 35 points before the first kickoff. But okay, fine. We'll try for the miracle comeback. Then on the very first play from scrimmage...every player on the white team gang tackles our quarterback, breaks his arms, his legs, and severs his spine...then they do the exact same thing to our back up quarterbacks. The white team then scores another 49 unanswered points. But somewhere in the 3rd quarter, the white team realizes this has gotten completely out of hand. They start to feel bad for running up the score. So what do they do? They penalize themselves 15 yards on the ensuing kickoff.

And with that they say: "You're welcome. Now let's play some football and no more damn whining, ya hear!"


You realize there are businesses and schools that for decades have been bending over backward to promote diversity at every level even if it means hiring and promoting people just because they're minorities? That's not to say there aren't still obstacles but to simply ignore what's been done and continues to be done and to also ignore the large and influential segment of the population that has never stopped fighting for minority advancement invalidates whatever incoherent point you're trying to make.
 
2014-05-25 01:59:25 AM  

Waldo Pepper: but to answer your question. If someone is more qualified gets the job over me. no worries that is the right call by the employer. equal qualified and I lose out due to the employer having to fill a quota, that's no good. the less qualified person getting the job well then i'm pissed.


What makes you more qualified? Why do you assume the minority person hired ahead of you is less qualified?

Waldo Pepper: You are the state dmv and i walk in and 90% of the jobs are filled by minorities in a area where minorities only make up 25% of the local population. seems a bit off and wrong.


Do you really believe that any type of governmental office has racial quotas stating 90% of employees must be minorities?

Is it at all possible that 90% of the people who applied for positions were minorities? Is it possible that these people were actually qualified for the job, and hired on their merits?

If you don't believe that all of the 90% could possibly be qualified for their jobs, then congratulations, you've hit on one of the major issues of the article.

Please read it.
 
2014-05-25 02:00:10 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Kittypie070: Yeah, and kiddies in restaurants :D

You've got me there. I don't even remember that.

So I guess you win on that one?


Yeah, technically, but I ain't gonna strut my stuff about it.
 
2014-05-25 02:05:06 AM  
A few points aimed at nobody in particular:

1. If you have any real-life proposals for ameliorating structural racism, please share them.  But if you don't, if you only want a "conversation about race," and what you really want is affirmation, to feel good about yourself without doing any hard work, confirmation that you're one of the good guys, then I'd advise you to head off to the bathroom and literally masturbate.  You'll get more of an endorphin rush.

2. When you say "Ta-Nehisi Coates is such a good writer," "what a beautifully written article," etc., you're being unintentionally racist, like the people calling Obama "so articulate (for a black guy)."  You wouldn't say the same thing about an article written by a white guy, so stop patronizing Coates.

3. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about left and right.  For example, probably the single best thing we could do to ease structural racism - overhauling and improving public education - is considered almost verboten on the left. Conservatives, on the other hand, are too often obtuse ("racism ended in 2008") or cynically resigned ("we'll never improve things") to contribute constructively to a policy response.

If you care about making the country a better place, don't treat structural racism as a proxy for some other political/identity fight.  All that does is marginalize the issue and make it less likely to be addressed.
 
2014-05-25 02:06:15 AM  

Rincewind53: Dusk-You-n-Me: Rincewind53: but it's one of the best-written articles I've seen in ages.

T-NC is one of the best writers of our time.

I agree. The article is filled with absolutely fabulous lines, phrasing that cuts to the heart of the issue. Just came across this one:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about "black pathology," the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America's relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer."

He also makes powerful points against those who say "But my family only came here in 1900!" Those people are perfectly happy to talk about how awesome George Washington was, how important the Declaration of Rights is, and are happy to take credit for  that aspect of being American. But they refuse to accept any responsibility for any negative aspect of the American experience. T-NC writes of this: "To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America's origins in a slavery economy is patriotism à la carte."


Does he acknowledge the many US soldiers who fought and died to end slavery?

Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Reparations for slavety is a stupid farking idea based on perhaps the largest collective appeal to emotion fallacy in modern race discussions.
 
2014-05-25 02:07:06 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: My family didn't come here til around 1900 so don't blame me.

You're not to blame. But that's not the point. America is to blame. This article moves the discussion forward on we as a country atone for our racial sins -- not just of the past, but also the ones we are committing today.


If you're going that route, what of the British, French, and many African tribes?
 
2014-05-25 02:07:12 AM  

Carousel Beast: Does he acknowledge the many US soldiers who fought and died to end slavery?

Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Reparations for slavety is a stupid farking idea based on perhaps the largest collective appeal to emotion fallacy in modern race discussions.


Then it's a good thing that isn't what the article is about.
 
2014-05-25 02:08:13 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.

What utter absolute nonsense. Go fark yourself you irresponsible douche.

Advocating reparations in the wake of decades of social policy transferring wealth from white to black (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant), or anything remotely approaching punishing people for the sins of their great grandparents would set race relations back decades if not more. It's the ultimate in "you're not helping"


As far as I can tell, all we have been doing is taking money out the general pot for everything we pay for through government in order to try and even out the current disparity between impoverished and not-impoverished communities.

Due to how we have defined poverty, we have not eliminated that ratio of impoverished. But we have done good work in raising the floor in general.

Of course due to demographics, most of the people who benefit from Welfare in general are white, but it's only black and brown welfare that's a problem apparently.

Let us not speak to the pipeline problem of why a lot of upper-class industries and professions are still disproportionately white.
 
2014-05-25 02:10:02 AM  

Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: Those quotes to me speak to one of the problems today. Black Wealth right now is being generated in mostly the entertainment pursuits because that is one of the few areas that we can have complete agency over. Two of the more celebrated instances of black wealth, Oprah Winfrey and Ervin Johnson got their money to start with by being entertainers (yes I lump pro athletes in with entertainers).

It has been notoriously difficult for Blacks to generate wealth by other means because we have to start from zero. And then we have to fight with everyone else that might already have in-roads to the marketplace just because of where they started at.

Eventually we as a people will get there, it's just that we are starting from really far behind.

Why does every black person think that whites have in-roads to the marketplace because of where they started?  I will agree that those in lets us the term "Planter class" have the in-roads and that class isn't just white folks anymore.  Those who have the money and power want to keep it within their little group and regardless of the color of your skin it is a hard place to get in.


Again, you are incorrect. This has been studied by actual scientists, not just using anecdotes. A black person with no criminal background has roughly the same chance of being hired as a white felon. The idea that black people get hired more than white people for the same job is patently false and demonstrably untrue.
 
2014-05-25 02:10:05 AM  
I'll tell you a quick story:

My Dad:  Born in 1940, pure Russian parents, that ended up in East Germany after the revolution.  Escaped with the clothes on his back to Cleveland.  CLEVELAND, mind you.  Father was a PhD, but ended a hospital janitor.  In CLEVELAND.  After being arrested and given an opportunity to serve his jail time in the military, my Dad made a career out of the Navy.

My Mom, Born in 1932, the 10th of 12 kids to what ended up as a single mom in Massachusetts.  Racially, a Scots-Irish mutt with some dubious claims to native american heritage, and whatever seemed convenient to the company she was keeping.  "Oh, you're from Quebec?  My great-great grandfather was Quebecois!".

Me:  Third of three kids, lower-middle class.  High school was minority dominated (I went to the same HS as Plaxico Burress).  Paid my own way through college.

So, given this history, what do I personally owe black people?  Not a damned thing.  On the face of it, I had the same opportunities.  I grew up in integrated communities and had, quite literally, the same educational opportunities up until 12th grade.

From a societal perspective?  Oh, I owe a hell of a lot more than nothing, I can assure you of that.

Despite thedisrespect given to my paternal grandfather for his immigrant status, he was not denied access to the tidy house he owned in a stable neighborhood. My father was given the opportunity of a career in the place of a prison term - despite the fact that he could not speak English when he entered the military.

Had my grandfather been black, he would not have been granted the opportunity to gain financial independence.  Had my father been black, he would have started his adulthood in prison.  Had either of these been the case, my two elder siblings and I (not to mention my cousins) would have seriously different outcomes.

So yeah, it's not quite "white guilt" that I feel, but a sense of "there but for the fact of race, go I."
 
2014-05-25 02:10:33 AM  

Waldo Pepper: everything Malcolm X ever said will always have some relevance to the black race in America.


That's like saying everything Nathan Bedford Forrest ever said will have some relevance to the white race in America.

Sure, some people agreed with everything he said. Many people thought he had some good points. Historically, you can look back on what he said and kind of understand where he was coming from. But that doesn't mean he defines his entire race.
 
2014-05-25 02:11:38 AM  

Waldo Pepper: ox45tallboy: Waldo Pepper: I can believe that blacks aren't treated fair in this country and deserve some form of a break but at the same time be mad if I was passed over for a job simply due to the company having to hire a minority.

But you wouldn't feel that bad if the minority person was more qualified than you.

Which they would be if they had access to the same opportunities you do.

but to answer your question. If someone is more qualified gets the job over me. no worries that is the right call by the employer. equal qualified and I lose out due to the employer having to fill a quota, that's no good. the less qualified person getting the job well then i'm pissed.

I don't have any issues with employers hiring based on needs, you run a business in a metro area and you hire salespeople that fit the profile of your customers makes perfect sense. You are the state dmv and i walk in and 90% of the jobs are filled by minorities in a area where minorities only make up 25% of the local population. seems a bit off and wrong.

I believe you hire the best person that fits the needs of the employer for that job.


Government Positions aren't that disporportiantely black due to quotas, they are due to the fact blacks value stability over absolute earning potential.

They would rather take a stable government paycheck by working at the DMV than risk getting fired over nothing working in some office.

(this though has the knock off effect of making it hard for blacks to build wealth because they aren't completely maximizing their potential)

A lot can be done to help black people become wealthy by reducing the level of fear of a failure in the job market not leading to them immediately having to live under a bridge.

Of course it would help if a lot of them could actually avoid living under a bridge after a couple of missed paychecks...
 
2014-05-25 02:12:02 AM  

poot_rootbeer: trappedspirit: Nice touch.  Is this how people who can understand and appreciate this type of article act?  Then I say, no thank you, kind sir.  If overbearing judgmental sanctimonious pricks are the type attracted to this article's content, I must say, nay.  Nay I say.

"I dunno what it is, but if he's fer it... I'm agin' it!!!"


Exactly, in frontier gibberish.  If it causes hatred and intolerance, I don't see why I should bother looking any further.
 
2014-05-25 02:12:32 AM  

Captain Dan: "so articulate (for a black guy)."


At my last job my director was black, and he was describing a candidate who was coming in for a job interview and he said "articulate."  I stopped him and asked him if she was black.  He said she was and I pointed out people usually use articulate when describing black people.

Articulate, rightly or wrongly, has become a word in the US that people only use to describe either black people or people otherwise not expected to speak well.  It's an automatic backhanded compliment, so I don't use it at all.
 
2014-05-25 02:15:10 AM  

Captain Dan: A few points aimed at nobody in particular:

1. If you have any real-life proposals for ameliorating structural racism, please share them.  But if you don't, if you only want a "conversation about race," and what you really want is affirmation, to feel good about yourself without doing any hard work, confirmation that you're one of the good guys, then I'd advise you to head off to the bathroom and literally masturbate.  You'll get more of an endorphin rush.

2. When you say "Ta-Nehisi Coates is such a good writer," "what a beautifully written article," etc., you're being unintentionally racist, like the people calling Obama "so articulate (for a black guy)."  You wouldn't say the same thing about an article written by a white guy, so stop patronizing Coates.

3. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about left and right.  For example, probably the single best thing we could do to ease structural racism - overhauling and improving public education - is considered almost verboten on the left. Conservatives, on the other hand, are too often obtuse ("racism ended in 2008") or cynically resigned ("we'll never improve things") to contribute constructively to a policy response.

If you care about making the country a better place, don't treat structural racism as a proxy for some other political/identity fight.  All that does is marginalize the issue and make it less likely to be addressed.


Addressing point 3: a lot of people on the left fear change in the structure of education because, in a lot of places, that manifests as a gentrification of the school system as well-off parents put all their kids in private schools, and redraw district maps as to basically ghettoize public schools by cutting off their funding.

If you want an example of this, look at the debate over Baton Rouge (where I live) being separated into Baton Rouge proper and a new city of St. George that would take up a lot of the south of East Baton Rouge parish (where coincidentally a lot of well-off white people live...)
 
2014-05-25 02:15:28 AM  

OgreMagi: Reparation was paid with the blood of all the men who died on the battle field to end slavery in this country.


All zero of them, eh?  (Here's a hint, slavery did not end with Lee surrendering at Appomattox, nor with Johnson's declaration of the end of the war, nor with the last Confederate general surrendering.)

Southerners don't get to claim the war wasn't about slavery at all, but neither do Northerners get to claim the war was their atonement for racism forever.  (Nor, incidentally, do people descended from post-Civil-War immigrants get to claim they bear no responsibility for the past when they directly benefit from that past in the present.)

/white Southerner descended from post-Civil-War immigrants to Virginia and two long lines of North Carolinians
 
2014-05-25 02:15:51 AM  

Waldo Pepper: We all know it happens and the point I was trying and I guess failing to make was as much as I understand and even sort of agree that AA hirings were a good thing doesn't mean that I also can't think of how wrong it is to the non minority who is passed over.  it is quite possible to have conflicting thoughts on a subject


And that's why I urge you to read the article. This isn't what's being proposed here.

Let's assume you are correct and the black person that was hired over the white person was indeed less qualified for the job.

Now let's ask ourselves why the black person was less qualified.
 
2014-05-25 02:18:16 AM  

Lsherm: At my last job my director was black, and he was describing a candidate who was coming in for a job interview and he said "articulate."  I stopped him and asked him if she was black.  He said she was and I pointed out people usually use articulate when describing black people.

Articulate, rightly or wrongly, has become a word in the US that people only use to describe either black people or people otherwise not expected to speak well.  It's an automatic backhanded compliment, so I don't use it at all.


This shows up all the time in NFL/NBA interviews: "[black player] is so articulate!" - as if they were expecting an unintelligible idiot.  They never say it about well-spoken white guys, because there's this implicit racist thought of "he's white, he ought to be articulate."

It's not malicious, but its effect is pernicious.
 
2014-05-25 02:18:25 AM  
Abox:

You realize there are businesses and schools that for decades have been bending over backward to promote diversity at every level even if it means hiring and promoting people just because they're minorities? That's not to say there aren't still obstacles but to simply ignore what's been done and continues to be done and to also ignore the large and influential segment of the population that has never stopped fighting for minority advancement invalidates whatever incoherent point you're trying to make.


This being Fark (where snark is king) I thought I'd inject a little humor. Sorry it fell flat with you. For the record:

Yes...I realize that many businesses, schools, institutions and individuals have been equal partners in the struggle for equality. Yes...I realize the Civil Rights victories of the 50's and 60's never could've been won without fair minded whites who stood shoulder to shoulder with blacks. Yes...I realize that there are tons of whites (and Latinos and Asians) who are working hard right now today to make this society a more livable one for all people. I get all that.

The cartoon I posted (that you originally replied to) and my subsequent posts were not meant to imply that nobody has ever done anything to help black people. My philosophy has been (and continues to be) "we're all in this together." I wish more people felt the same, yet I remain optimistic that they will.

Clear enough?
 
2014-05-25 02:18:53 AM  

Captain Dan: A few points aimed at nobody in particular:

1. If you have any real-life proposals for ameliorating structural racism, please share them.  But if you don't, if you only want a "conversation about race," and what you really want is affirmation, to feel good about yourself without doing any hard work, confirmation that you're one of the good guys, then I'd advise you to head off to the bathroom and literally masturbate.  You'll get more of an endorphin rush.

A "conversation about race" means that we want a chance to convince racists that there is a problem. The hard work is being done by low paid social workers.

2. When you say "Ta-Nehisi Coates is such a good writer," "what a beautifully written article," etc., you're being unintentionally racist, like the people calling Obama "so articulate (for a black guy)."  You wouldn't say the same thing about an article written by a white guy, so stop patronizing Coates.

People can and do admire good writing. We here on FARK often complement Pocket Ninja for example. We aren't patronizing Ninjas.

3. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about left and right.  For example, probably the single best thing we could do to ease structural racism - overhauling and improving public education - is considered almost verboten on the left. Conservatives, on the other hand, are too often obtuse ("racism ended in 2008") or cynically resigned ("we'll never improve things") to contribute constructively to a policy response.

The 'left' as you call it are trying to improve education for all. Conservatives want to improve education for the select.

If you care about making the country a better place, don't treat structural racism as a proxy for some other political/identity fight.  All that does is marginalize the issue and make it less likely to be addressed.

Structural racism is at the core of what needs to be changed to make this country a better place.
 
2014-05-25 02:21:27 AM  
Waldo Pepper: you can have your studies,

Yeah, who needs evidence when you can simply turn to prejudice?
 
2014-05-25 02:21:59 AM  

Captain Dan: Lsherm: At my last job my director was black, and he was describing a candidate who was coming in for a job interview and he said "articulate."  I stopped him and asked him if she was black.  He said she was and I pointed out people usually use articulate when describing black people.

Articulate, rightly or wrongly, has become a word in the US that people only use to describe either black people or people otherwise not expected to speak well.  It's an automatic backhanded compliment, so I don't use it at all.

This shows up all the time in NFL/NBA interviews: "[black player] is so articulate!" - as if they were expecting an unintelligible idiot.  They never say it about well-spoken white guys, because there's this implicit racist thought of "he's white, he ought to be articulate."

It's not malicious, but its effect is pernicious.


Also a similar effect: the White/Black Doll test.

We just intrinsically give white people the benefit of the doubt because they are the default. Black people by their nature are not the default, and we've promulgated so many negative stereotypes (with no assist by certain artists that are only in it to make a dollar) that people just assume black people are negatively aberrant.

And this has been true for a lot of our history, even after we supposedly gained our cultural agency in the mid-60s.
 
2014-05-25 02:24:10 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Rincewind53: Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: Those quotes to me speak to one of the problems today. Black Wealth right now is being generated in mostly the entertainment pursuits because that is one of the few areas that we can have complete agency over. Two of the more celebrated instances of black wealth, Oprah Winfrey and Ervin Johnson got their money to start with by being entertainers (yes I lump pro athletes in with entertainers).

It has been notoriously difficult for Blacks to generate wealth by other means because we have to start from zero. And then we have to fight with everyone else that might already have in-roads to the marketplace just because of where they started at.

Eventually we as a people will get there, it's just that we are starting from really far behind.

Why does every black person think that whites have in-roads to the marketplace because of where they started?  I will agree that those in lets us the term "Planter class" have the in-roads and that class isn't just white folks anymore.  Those who have the money and power want to keep it within their little group and regardless of the color of your skin it is a hard place to get in.

Again, you are incorrect. This has been studied by actual scientists, not just using anecdotes. A black person with no criminal background has roughly the same chance of being hired as a white felon. The idea that black people get hired more than white people for the same job is patently false and demonstrably untrue.

you can have your studies, i prefer real world where I did the hiring and a lot of entry level jobs and also skilled mechanical jobs also some management jobs. I can assure you that a black person with no criminal background had a much greater chance at being hired than a white felon. the funny thing about the majority of customers is that they don't care what race, color, religion the person behind the counter is as long as that employee is professional, knowledgeable and friendly.


Are we really dismissing wide-scale, scientifically done studies in favor of limited personal experience and anecdotes?
Because it really sounds like that to me.
 
2014-05-25 02:24:20 AM  

Pichu0102: fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"

I'll say this as many times as it needs repeating: A house is something you live in, not something you invest in/gamble on. We apparently did not learn our lesson that houses are not casino chips from the last collapse. Bunch of farking...


The quote was from 1957. But other than that a fair point.
 
2014-05-25 02:26:46 AM  

IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?


Their own continent?
 
2014-05-25 02:27:06 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Addressing point 3: a lot of people on the left fear change in the structure of education because, in a lot of places, that manifests as a gentrification of the school system as well-off parents put all their kids in private schools, and redraw district maps as to basically ghettoize public schools by cutting off their funding.


Yeah, that's a terrible system, and it's designed to perpetuate structural racism.

I'll be honest: I would send my kids to an all-white private school before sending them to a substandard public school, because I care more about my kids' education than I do about ending racism.  Any effective reform has to acknowledge that nearly all parents feel the same way; they want first and foremost what's best for their kids.  That's reality.

A good start to education reform would involve severing the tie between neighborhood and education funding (have funds distributed by the state on an equitable basis, so that poor schools are as well-funded as schools in rich neighborhoods), and reforming our approach to public school teacher hiring (my proposal: pay the best teachers much, much more, and fire the worst ones).

If you want an example of this, look at the debate over Baton Rouge (where I live) being separated into Baton Rouge proper and a new city of St. George that would take up a lot of the south of East Baton Rouge parish (where coincidentally a lot of well-off white people live...)

I've actually been reading about this for a while, because Rod Dreher (a conservative writer in that area) has been covering it.  I can't fathom how we allow such a stupid system to remain in place.
 
2014-05-25 02:28:24 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Government Positions aren't that disporportiantely black due to quotas, they are due to the fact blacks value stability over absolute earning potential.


Actually, it's more likely due to friendly hiring policies that tend to create racial hiring clusters, which is normally what white people do but can be done by any race once they've established a foothold.  The DC metro system is a pretty good example of it - almost all board leadership is white, but any of the operational jobs are almost exclusively black.  It's another example of institutional racism in action, just in reverse.

And this happens every day in every industry.  If a community is largely employed by one employer, then they draw their employee pool from the people they know.  But if you look at the larger picture, blacks are concentrating on the lower end of the payment scale while whites are concentrating at the higher end.  It only appears that more black people are working in government because they have lower paid customer-facing jobs.  If you look around, there's probably a disproportionate number of black people working at your local fast food joint, too.  But the regional manager is probably a white guy.
 
2014-05-25 02:28:50 AM  

fusillade762: Pichu0102: fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"

I'll say this as many times as it needs repeating: A house is something you live in, not something you invest in/gamble on. We apparently did not learn our lesson that houses are not casino chips from the last collapse. Bunch of farking...

The quote was from 1957. But other than that a fair point.


Houses are still a major investment because of how much debt you have to incur to purchase one.
And generally it's a super-long term investment since the house can last 2 or 3 generations if maintained properly, by which time it should theoretically pay off whenever the (great-)grand-children decide to sell because it becomes unfeasible to continue living on the property for whatever reason.

This is why a lot of black people have no wealth now, they were frozen out of the biggest housing boom during the 50s and 60s. Why do you think a lot of black families in 70s sitcoms were struggling in rented homes or apartment projects?

It is only recently when we expected houses to turn a positive ROI within MONTHS instead of decades like it used to be.
 
2014-05-25 02:29:27 AM  

OhioUGrad: IlGreven: itcamefromschenectady: Do Jews deserve money because of the Holocaust, if they didn't personally live through it?

...they got an entire country. What have blacks gotten other than centuries of oppression?

Their own continent?


Oh wow.  You realize that you're not doing your alma mater any favors with ignorant, racist posts like this, right?
 
2014-05-25 02:31:56 AM  

Lsherm: BlueDWarrior: Government Positions aren't that disporportiantely black due to quotas, they are due to the fact blacks value stability over absolute earning potential.

Actually, it's more likely due to friendly hiring policies that tend to create racial hiring clusters, which is normally what white people do but can be done by any race once they've established a foothold.  The DC metro system is a pretty good example of it - almost all board leadership is white, but any of the operational jobs are almost exclusively black.  It's another example of institutional racism in action, just in reverse.

And this happens every day in every industry.  If a community is largely employed by one employer, then they draw their employee pool from the people they know.  But if you look at the larger picture, blacks are concentrating on the lower end of the payment scale while whites are concentrating at the higher end.  It only appears that more black people are working in government because they have lower paid customer-facing jobs.  If you look around, there's probably a disproportionate number of black people working at your local fast food joint, too.  But the regional manager is probably a white guy.


Hrm, I see what you are saying. Though I think the stability of benefits given by a government job is still a significant factor, but I'm not in a position at the moment to look up any studies or articles that could prove or disprove that notion.
 
2014-05-25 02:32:53 AM  

Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.


FAIL. The Irish and the Chinese came here of their own free will, and could leave the same way. Some were even encouraged to. The Irish in particular took only a couple of generations to become as white as anyone else, especially when they began to be elected as politicians and hired by police forces. Even Jews disappeared into the whiteness that was this country when they wanted to... ever heard of the famous Horwitz brothers?
Native Americans got thrown out of their own house... ain't that some sh*t?
Can't speak for women, since unfortunately they've been brutalized since there have been men and women.

African Americans don't want a check, although we wouldn't turn one down... all we want is to be treated like "americans". No "special treatment" by police or the courts, no "advantages" in schools, for loans or scholarships... just treated like everyone should be. Don't look at the name on my resume, look at my education and experience. Don't look at the neighborhood I live in, look at my credit score for that loan. Don't look at my impressive tan during the job interview, look at how well-creased my dress shirt is and how shiny my shoes are.

Not like black people, but like people. Is that too much to ask? Apparently and for the last 400 years, the answer seems to be... yes.
 
2014-05-25 02:33:44 AM  
TFA is long, and I barely made it through.

I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

/ not that it should matter, but my family is mixed race
 
2014-05-25 02:34:05 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Are we really dismissing wide-scale, scientifically done studies in favor of limited personal experience and anecdotes?


http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felo n- same-chances-for-hire/

Was that this study? Because this study took place in only two cities.

Also:   I hired young men to pose as job applicants, assigning them resumes with equal levels of education and experience, and sending them to apply for real entry-level job openings all over the city.

This is practically anecdotal on its own. It's certainly suggestive, but that's it. Climate change has "wide-scale, scientifically done studies" confirming it. This has one study, with no repeated confirmation and a large possibility for error and bias.
 
2014-05-25 02:34:05 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Abox: I'm not racially sinning today either so leave me out of it.

For the second time, it's not about you. It's about America. Jesus christ.


Jesus Christ eh? I'll see your JC, and raise you one Vassago, and one Flying Spaghetti. Welcome to Fark/America/Humanity. No refunds.
 
2014-05-25 02:35:19 AM  

rewind2846: Kyro: So racism ends the moment we write the great-great-grandchildren of slaves a check? Something tells me that's not quite that simple.

Nor is it ever going to happen. How about the families of the Chinese brutalized into building the continental railroad? The Irish oppression in the northeast? Women? So far the closest we've gotten to paying for the moral failings of our forefathers is throwing some tax breaks to the handful of Native Americans we failed to wipe out.

FAIL. The Irish and the Chinese came here of their own free will, and could leave the same way. Some were even encouraged to. The Irish in particular took only a couple of generations to become as white as anyone else, especially when they began to be elected as politicians and hired by police forces. Even Jews disappeared into the whiteness that was this country when they wanted to... ever heard of the famous Horwitz brothers?
Native Americans got thrown out of their own house... ain't that some sh*t?
Can't speak for women, since unfortunately they've been brutalized since there have been men and women.

African Americans don't want a check, although we wouldn't turn one down... all we want is to be treated like "americans". No "special treatment" by police or the courts, no "advantages" in schools, for loans or scholarships... just treated like everyone should be. Don't look at the name on my resume, look at my education and experience. Don't look at the neighborhood I live in, look at my credit score for that loan. Don't look at my impressive tan during the job interview, look at how well-creased my dress shirt is and how shiny my shoes are.

Not like black people, but like people. Is that too much to ask? Apparently and for the last 400 years, the answer seems to be... yes.


I can't tell you how much I agree with this sentiment.
No special advantages, just a rebalancing of the scales so that it is truly equal.
 
2014-05-25 02:35:54 AM  

Waldo Pepper: it doesn't matter to the person who was passed over for the job.

go to the rural south and tell the poor whites down there that the inner city blacks have less opportunities. a poor rural kids lives 10 miles from the small local library and no public transportation to get him/her there or to a job where the urban kid at least has a way to get to great resources that the urban areas have.  

as was mentioned earlier. The issue we should focus on is the poor and those just above the poverty line. it could almost be argued that most of those folks are poor as a result of slavery in one way or another.


Read my family's story up a few posts in this thread.  It illustrates how my family would have been caught in a cycle of poverty and criminality had we been black.  Lucky for me, we're white.

So me, my siblings, and cousins are doing great because of the bootstraps and all!
 
2014-05-25 02:36:35 AM  
Babwa Wawa:

Oh wow.  You realize that you're not doing your alma mater any favors with ignorant, racist posts like this, right?


As a black OU grad, I want to give my fellow bobcat the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just a joke and that he's not foolish enough to actually think like that. So that's what I'm going with.
 
2014-05-25 02:37:41 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: you can have your studies,

Yeah, who needs evidence when you can simply turn to prejudice?

if you are going to quote me at least have the courtesy to use my entire quote.

please show my prejudice in my hiring practices. I can assure you that you will unable to find any negative ones.


More interesting to me than your anecdotal evidence is your out-of-hand dismissal of any academic study of the matter.

Tell me about your mother.
 
2014-05-25 02:37:45 AM  

Boojum2k: This is practically anecdotal on its own. It's certainly suggestive, but that's it. Climate change has "wide-scale, scientifically done studies" confirming it. This has one study, with no repeated confirmation and a large possibility for error and bias.


oooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg g h don't DO that!!
 
2014-05-25 02:38:13 AM  

starsrift: TFA is long, and I barely made it through.

I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

/ not that it should matter, but my family is mixed race


I don't think he was saying "We should only help poor blacks."
He was more saying "Poor blacks might need more help than other groups because they are a good distance behind the starting line."

In the end I don't think T-NC is trying to say blacks should be put on a pedestal above everyone else, though some of it might leak through due to natural human bias. He is saying that blacks might need more work in terms of trying to level everyone's pedestals off.
 
2014-05-25 02:39:13 AM  

Kittypie070: don't DO that!!


It's late and it was the best example I could think of. Maybe I should have gone with General Relativity?
 
2014-05-25 02:39:36 AM  

Waldo Pepper: it doesn't matter to the person who was passed over for the job.

go to the rural south and tell the poor whites down there that the inner city blacks have less opportunities. a poor rural kids lives 10 miles from the small local library and no public transportation to get him/her there or to a job where the urban kid at least has a way to get to great resources that the urban areas have.
as was mentioned earlier. The issue we should focus on is the poor and those just above the poverty line. it could almost be argued that most of those folks are poor as a result of slavery in one way or another.


Please, pretty please, with sugar on top, read the article.
 
2014-05-25 02:39:45 AM  
I really wish that he hadn't used the word 'reparations' in the article.  It elicits a knee-jerk response because money papering over these wounds is stupid.  As far as the discussion, there's no doubt that we need to have more of it.  Possibly by simply airing it out more we can take some of the sting out of it and look at some positive direction.

Personally, it's tough for me.  I grew up in a pretty classic northeast white-bread suburb.  There were, I believe, exactly two black families at my school.  The area is pretty strongly liberal, so I honestly never understood a racist point of view.  The black kids at our school were just as smart as anyone else, and spoke the same, and did all the same stuff.

Then I joined the Navy.  I was exposed to a large section of the country that I had never experienced.  The combination of ghetto black and Pennsyltucky white was pretty disheartening.  For the first time in my life I understood where the view of black people as lazy and ignorant came from.  And that bothered the hell out of me.  As I went on in the Navy and later in life, I tried to keep my eyes open, and all-in-all, I still stay pretty close to my original view that there's no racial difference.  The problem is cultural.  Decades and centuries of oppression have, it seems to me, turned black city culture inward, and caused them to reject the outside.

This is where the 'acting too white' resentment comes in.  Being well spoken and educated is foreign to a lot of these primarily-black communities that were forced together by housing discrimination, and as a result discouraged.  Doing this creates a negative feedback loop where the people who are in a position to lift themselves out of poverty are belittled by their peers.  I think this is the biggest issue facing black culture right now (once again, admittedly from the outside looking in).  And as people are pointing out, it's a matter of the institutional pressure to keep blacks segregated.  If we can really open up communities, not just legally, but actually creating open environments that encourage and accept black people, we can see some change.
 
2014-05-25 02:41:22 AM  

BlueDWarrior: T-NC


That's a good sight better than "TFA author", which is what I've been referring to him as.  So I'm stealing your acronym.

And don't expect any credit.
 
2014-05-25 02:41:29 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Hrm, I see what you are saying. Though I think the stability of benefits given by a government job is still a significant factor, but I'm not in a position at the moment to look up any studies or articles that could prove or disprove that notion.


Blacks are over-represented in federal government employment, but by very little (about 5%).  State statistics are broken up by state, so there's no aggregate total, but if you look at clerical vs professional  jobs on this page by state you'll see blacks over-represented on lower paying jobs and under-represented on higher paying jobs.  The impression that there are more black people working in government is because you don't meet a director when you get your benefits or license, you meet the peon.  And peons are lower paid, and that means more likely to be a minority.
 
2014-05-25 02:42:08 AM  

Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.


That's fine. Just prove that your own family didn't keep any slaves after that and we're all good.
 
2014-05-25 02:45:43 AM  
People posting all this dumb as shiat stuff without actually reading the article is why this country will never (at least for a couple of centuries) move past institutionalized racism.
 
2014-05-25 02:46:08 AM  
I Browse:

Poser.  I know what you look like.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-25 02:46:13 AM  
This has been truly fascinating. I hope the thread stays open for longer than usual.

/shuffles off to bed
 
2014-05-25 02:48:28 AM  

Kittypie070: This has been truly fascinating. I hope the thread stays open for longer than usual.

/shuffles off to bed


Kitty, don't go.  We need your claws!
 
2014-05-25 02:48:33 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Captain Dan: Lsherm: At my last job my director was black, and he was describing a candidate who was coming in for a job interview and he said "articulate."  I stopped him and asked him if she was black.  He said she was and I pointed out people usually use articulate when describing black people.

Articulate, rightly or wrongly, has become a word in the US that people only use to describe either black people or people otherwise not expected to speak well.  It's an automatic backhanded compliment, so I don't use it at all.

This shows up all the time in NFL/NBA interviews: "[black player] is so articulate!" - as if they were expecting an unintelligible idiot.  They never say it about well-spoken white guys, because there's this implicit racist thought of "he's white, he ought to be articulate."


If he has an extremely low forehead and eyes that seem to look in all directions at the same time... Ah hell, no, forget it: if a footballplayer can actually formulate a proper sentence, I will raise my eyebrows. Doesn't matter the color. I know what you're saying - but this is a really, really bad example. Sports players are almost universally dumb as a brick.

Also a similar effect: the White/Black Doll test.

Yeah, well. Private companies cater for the common denominator. Tough shiat. Blacks in the US account for 13% or something (I don't know the exact number). So again, I know what you're saying, but bad example.
 
2014-05-25 02:49:19 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: it doesn't matter to the person who was passed over for the job.

go to the rural south and tell the poor whites down there that the inner city blacks have less opportunities. a poor rural kids lives 10 miles from the small local library and no public transportation to get him/her there or to a job where the urban kid at least has a way to get to great resources that the urban areas have.  

as was mentioned earlier. The issue we should focus on is the poor and those just above the poverty line. it could almost be argued that most of those folks are poor as a result of slavery in one way or another.

Read my family's story up a few posts in this thread.  It illustrates how my family would have been caught in a cycle of poverty and criminality had we been black.  Lucky for me, we're white.

So me, my siblings, and cousins are doing great because of the bootstraps and all!

but you don't know for sure that you are doing better because you are white. How do you not know that if you had face some of the trials of being black that you wouldn't have came out of those times stronger and more successful?  

I do agree that the odds would have been against you. but you don't know for fact that you are better off.  

the funny thing about this subject is that i've witness quite a bit of black on black racism (if you will).  An educated black man/woman talking down their nose and treating one of my black employees like crap and they would never treat a white employee the same way.


You know, I sympathize with a couple things you brought up, but wow.  You really are the 'but some of my best friends are black' guy.
 
2014-05-25 02:50:18 AM  

rewind2846: ..
Native Americans got thrown out of their own house... ain't that some sh*t?
Can't speak for women, since unfortunately they've been brutalized since there have been men and women.

African Americans don't want a check, although we wouldn't turn one down... all we want is to be treated like "americans". No "special treatment" by police or the courts, no "advantages" in schools, for loans or scholarships... just treated like everyone should be. Don't look at the name on my resume, look at my education and experience. Don't look at the neighborhood I live in, look at my credit score for that loan. Don't look at my impressive tan during the job interview, look at how well-creased my dress shirt is and how shiny my shoes are.

Not like black people, but like people. Is that too much to ask? Apparently and for the last 400 years, the answer seems to be... yes.


Not to mock your points, but you are black & tan? The Irish rebels won't like hearing that. On a more serious note, Natives didn't just "get thrown out the house". They were often infected with deadly disease, religion, lied to, cheated, robbed, unhomed, kidnapped, enslaved, murdered, raped, brutally tortured, and disgraced, among other things. Otherwise, carry on.
 
2014-05-25 02:53:47 AM  
As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.
 
2014-05-25 02:53:54 AM  

Babwa Wawa: I Browse:

Poser.  I know what you look like.

[i.imgur.com image 477x357]



You got me. My secret is out. Now...let me tell you what your cousin Jeffrey has been up to!
 
2014-05-25 02:55:18 AM  

RangerTaylor: You really are the 'but some of my best friends are black' guy.


That pretty much originated with Archie Bunker on All In The Family. The entire point wasn't that it was racist to have black friends, it was that none of the people he was calling friends were actually treated that way, they were all employees and treated like servants or barely acknowledged. He didn't actually have any black friends, really.

It is not actually racist to have friends who are black, nor is it to listen to their opinions and have them affect your own.
 
2014-05-25 02:56:57 AM  

BlueDWarrior: starsrift: I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

I don't think he was saying "We should only help poor blacks."
He was more saying "Poor blacks might need more help than other groups because they are a good distance behind the starting line."

In the end I don't think T-NC is trying to say blacks should be put on a pedestal above everyone else, though some of it might leak through due to natural human bias. He is saying that blacks might need more work in terms of trying to level everyone's pedestals off.


That's a good point to make.
I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.
I hope that made some sense, I know I'm not explaining it well.
 
2014-05-25 03:00:36 AM  

kriegsgeist: This thread is like a giant honeypot for racist farkheads. Filled with delicious, sticky honey.


It's doubly delicious since most of them didn't bother reading TFA before coming in to drop a deuce about slavery in the thread.
 
2014-05-25 03:00:45 AM  
Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.
 
2014-05-25 03:01:36 AM  
When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt, starting with the Great Society era of welfare handouts, section 8 housing, affirmative action up todays EBT cards and encouraging the whole sale slaughter of their race through abortion, you're GD right there should be payback.

When you expect less of a people
, when you convince them that they are unable to rise above their history and reenforce that thought by taking away the incentive to move up and out through hundreds of Governments programs, when you can persuade several generations to vote for the same party that promises deliverance, but in fact only perpetuates their status quo, then that is exactly what you are going to get.
 
2014-05-25 03:02:09 AM  

Waldo Pepper: but you don't know for sure that you are doing better because you are white. How do you not know that if you had face some of the trials of being black that you wouldn't have came out of those times stronger and more successful?


Four year college (for me) without cosigned loans from my dad would have been impossible.  And had he been shuffled off to jail instead of the Navy, he certainly wouldn't have been able to swing it - he was struggling with credit as was, even with a steady pension.  He also probably wouldn't have been able to cosign the loan for the car that I used to deliver Pizza Hut.  While he didn't pay for my college education directly, that education would not have been possible without his steady financial situation.

More importantly, I know that my own will was not strong enough at the time to make my own way.  Without his modest but nonetheless steadfast financial backing, I wouldn't have attained my degree.

I can't speak for my siblings' will.  But I have some pretty f*cking strong evidence that without my father's modest support, my sisters' advanced degrees wouldn't have been attained.  My MD sister would very likely be an RN at most.  My JD sister would be something else.
 
2014-05-25 03:02:16 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


Well as you know, anecdotal information based on "personal experience" trumps any citation.
 
2014-05-25 03:03:15 AM  

starsrift: I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.


Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.
 
2014-05-25 03:04:57 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


[welcometofark.jpg]
 
2014-05-25 03:05:51 AM  

starsrift: BlueDWarrior: starsrift: I don't think anyone except conservatards have problems with helping the poor. The real question is why help the poor of one minority group and not all of the poor? The article's author suggested that helping all of the poor is wrong in an allusion to President L. Johnson (for those who want to ctrl-f it). Even once you grant the author's 50-year old point that black poverty is not like other poverty, why not help all of the poor? I'm not trying to make a 'reverse racism' point here, but I don't see an ethical stand for saying "We're gonna help you because your family was farked over in the past, but fark these other guys now".

I don't think he was saying "We should only help poor blacks."
He was more saying "Poor blacks might need more help than other groups because they are a good distance behind the starting line."

In the end I don't think T-NC is trying to say blacks should be put on a pedestal above everyone else, though some of it might leak through due to natural human bias. He is saying that blacks might need more work in terms of trying to level everyone's pedestals off.

That's a good point to make.
I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.
I hope that made some sense, I know I'm not explaining it well.


Basically a lot of the problems are rooted in both private and public institutional policy. And society largely has to be cajoled into doing something by the rules (laws) we set for it.

And sometimes that means some people might get more help than others because they started further back.

I do not begrudge programs that help rural whites, for example. But I do begrudge legislators who say rural whites need help, but refuse to help inner city blacks (and really inner city everyone) because they say aren't as disadvantaged as we all know they are.

When I get home, I want to look up that House proposal/bill that was supposedly supposed to only help rural kids even though it could be applicable to everyone of that general level of poverty. It kinda sucks being in a hot thread while at work.
 
2014-05-25 03:06:54 AM  

kyrg: When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt, starting with the Great Society era of welfare handouts, section 8 housing, affirmative action up todays EBT cards and encouraging the whole sale slaughter of their race through abortion, you're GD right there should be payback.

When you expect less of a people, when you convince them that they are unable to rise above their history and reenforce that thought by taking away the incentive to move up and out through hundreds of Governments programs, when you can persuade several generations to vote for the same party that promises deliverance, but in fact only perpetuates their status quo, then that is exactly what you are going to get.


Oh look, someone else who didn't read the article.

That is like saying someone should have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps after you hacked off their legs with an axe. Just rank stupidity/trolling...
 
2014-05-25 03:07:56 AM  

Carousel Beast: Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?


Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.


officeday: .Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left,



There is zero evidence that the the exodus happened or that ancient Egypt had Hebrew slaves.
 
2014-05-25 03:08:22 AM  

ox45tallboy: starsrift: I think the issue I'm taking here is that he's proposing legislative, top-down solutions to a societal problem. Legislatively, racism does not exist, and every person has an equal opportunity. In actual fact, racism exists and it's a big goddamn problem - like it says in TFA, blacks making 100k live like whites making 30k. That's not something the government can solve with reparations or leg-up programs, whether they're focused on African-Americans or not. I'm not laying it at the feet of the aforementioned 100k black earners either - the problem is societal, and you can't change society by fiat.

Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.


The author laid the bulk of his argument on predatory banks, realtors, and other financial instruments, not the government.
Is there currently a law on the books - and being enforced, forget those curio laws that've never gotten revoked - that is positioned against African-Americans? I'm not aware of one.
 
2014-05-25 03:08:57 AM  

Waldo Pepper: She passed away 6 weeks ago, why do you want to know.


I'm merely curious because you seem to have issues with authority.

So, tell me about your mother.  How did she treat you?  Are you angry?

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-25 03:12:44 AM  

ox45tallboy: It would be a huuuuuuge thing for America to at least acknowledge the institutionalized racism in its public policy for its entire history.


That would involve insight, humility, and work. It would also involve a good hard look in the mirror not only by those who uphold and continue institutionalized racism, but by those who benefit from those acts even though they themselves may not have committed them. It's as if I dug a pit to trap an animal, catch that animal, then leave. Another person comes along, sees the pit, thinks to themselves "boy this would be great to catch animals!", and uses it without lifting one shovelful of dirt.

In other words, not gonna happen.
 
2014-05-25 03:12:50 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


I disagree. As far as "race threads" go...it's been relatively civil, good points made on both sides of the issue, and none of the trolls have been successful in derailing the conversation. I've read posts that have made me think and question. It's been an interesting way to spend a few hours.

Compare this to say...a Zimmerman thread from last summer. After reading those, I felt like blacks and whites were living on different planets. This one has been nothing like that.
 
2014-05-25 03:13:30 AM  

log_jammin: Carousel Beast: Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.

officeday: .Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left,


There is zero evidence that the the exodus happened or that ancient Egypt had Hebrew slaves.


and yes I know that no one cares, but it annoys me.
 
2014-05-25 03:13:31 AM  

ox45tallboy: Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.


The question being, and then what? What promotes a better society for all out of this? Fubini made some excellent points about how actual improvements can be made, but they're a long-term incremental solution, which are notoriously difficult to legislate, and the seizing, taxing, or fining of properties that may have been taken unlawfully by now-deceased persons may or may not pass Constitutional muster (as a bill of attainder).
Also, if current legislation exists that specifically promotes racism, it should be identified and repealed. But no examples of any currently existing legislation like that have been given.
 
2014-05-25 03:14:06 AM  
img.fark.net
Bears repeating amidst this nerd rage.
 
2014-05-25 03:16:48 AM  

BlueDWarrior: Basically a lot of the problems are rooted in both private and public institutional policy. And society largely has to be cajoled into doing something by the rules (laws) we set for it.

And sometimes that means some people might get more help than others because they started further back.


Good point.
 
2014-05-25 03:18:02 AM  

Alphax: Okay, this thread looks like a trainwreck, no matter how good the article is.


It was always going to be.  The article is one of the smartest, most provocative pieces written in the past 20 years ( in the real, provocative making you think way.  Not linkbait and trolly way).

And people here will refuse to read it due to a need to sniff their own balls.
 
2014-05-25 03:18:11 AM  

starsrift: The author laid the bulk of his argument on predatory banks, realtors, and other financial instruments, not the government.
Is there currently a law on the books - and being enforced, forget those curio laws that've never gotten revoked - that is positioned against African-Americans? I'm not aware of one.


Wat

The majority of the people in the state were perpetually robbed of the vote-a hijacking engineered through the trickery of the poll tax and the muscle of the lynch mob.
...
The state's regime partnered robbery of the franchise with robbery of the purse.

When Clyde Ross was still a child, Mississippi authorities claimed his father owed $3,000 in back taxes.
...
It was in these early years that Ross began to understand himself as an American-he did not live under the blind decree of justice, but under the heel of a regime that elevated armed robbery to a governing principle.
...
Their efforts were buttressed by the federal government.
...
"A government offering such bounty to builders and lenders could have required compliance with a nondiscrimination policy," Charles Abrams, the urban-studies expert who helped create the New York City Housing Authority, wrote in 1955. "Instead, the FHA adopted a racial policy that could well have been culled from the Nuremberg laws."
 
2014-05-25 03:22:24 AM  

Boojum2k: ox45tallboy: Actually, he's saying precisely the opposite - that legislatively, racism does exist, and black people have not in the past, nor do they now, receive a truly equal opportunity, and this has been the case for the entire time this country has existed. It's time to take a good long look at what we can do to at the very least acknowledge that fact.

The question being, and then what? What promotes a better society for all out of this? Fubini made some excellent points about how actual improvements can be made, but they're a long-term incremental solution, which are notoriously difficult to legislate, and the seizing, taxing, or fining of properties that may have been taken unlawfully by now-deceased persons may or may not pass Constitutional muster (as a bill of attainder).
Also, if current legislation exists that specifically promotes racism, it should be identified and repealed. But no examples of any currently existing legislation like that have been given.


In the article I read, the author expressed a conclusion - we should use Federal money to examine the results of centuries of Federal policy of slavery, followed by decades upon decades of institutionalized racism. By doing so, we might at least acknowledge it happened. We might also stumble upon some way of making it better.
 
2014-05-25 03:22:33 AM  

firefly212: As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.


1. Not all black people want to ban gay marriage; aggregate black opinion is split pretty evenly.  Collectively condemning black people based on the actions of some is illogical.

2. Part of being a good person is treating other people well even if they don't treat you well.  Even if every black person in the country opposed gay marriage, it would be immoral to take that as a warrant to treat them poorly.

3. Straight-gay relations are probably the template for the future of race relations.  As long as gays embraced a countercultural / "outside group" identity (for understandable reasons), they were never going to convince most people that they were as fully American as anyone else.  It's only in the past two decades, with the attempts to culturally normalize gay people - as patriotic and moral as straight people - that voter opinion really started shifting towards ending anti-gay discrimination.

It'll be tougher for black people to integrate, just because of economic reasons, but I think that once we get to the point where there's less talk about grievances and more about patriotism and inclusiveness, that's when recalcitrant white people will open their hearts to the real problems facing black people.
 
2014-05-25 03:24:22 AM  

cchris_39: I'm all for reparations.

Anybody who's not happy here should renounce their citizenship and receive free plane ticket back to the county of their birth and $1,000 in cash.


I love to see Republican racism and bigotry out in the open, where we can all smell how offensive it is.
 
2014-05-25 03:29:39 AM  

kyrg: When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt, starting with the Great Society era of welfare handouts, section 8 housing, affirmative action up todays EBT cards and encouraging the whole sale slaughter of their race through abortion, you're GD right there should be payback.

When you expect less of a people, when you convince them that they are unable to rise above their history and reenforce that thought by taking away the incentive to move up and out through hundreds of Governments programs, when you can persuade several generations to vote for the same party that promises deliverance, but in fact only perpetuates their status quo, then that is exactly what you are going to get.


I see angry racist white males are still up. Or Republicans. Same thing, really. WHY WON'T THEY VOTE FOR USE WHEN WE HATE THEM SO?

/Brown people and libs aren't responsible for you being a failure. You are.
 
2014-05-25 03:30:19 AM  

ox45tallboy: starsrift: The author laid the bulk of his argument on predatory banks, realtors, and other financial instruments, not the government.
Is there currently a law on the books - and being enforced, forget those curio laws that've never gotten revoked - that is positioned against African-Americans? I'm not aware of one.

Wat...


Like I said, the bulk of his argument. And for certain, the government enables businesses to be predatory, but that's capitalism and caveat emptor. It continues today with payday loan businesses, who again, largely prey on ghettos. But that's not the government.
 
2014-05-25 03:30:42 AM  

Waldo Pepper: well to be honest it is rather foolish for me to try and argue with you. you have the facts of your life on your side ;-) but let me just say and forgive me if i'm wrong. I assume you had good strong parents and that fact wouldn't change if you had been black. 

i agree with you that being black had you done something wrong there would be a great chance you would be in jail but if you had strong parents that might have been avoided and there is a chance that if you were black and your parents had the struggles of their being black in america maybe just maybe you would have avoided some of the mistake you made as a white person.


See there's the thing.  I'll bold it for you.

First:  "my life", well, I'm just giving you an anecdote that supports the statistical evidence in the sense that my anecdote is opposite to the statistic, except that my story is contrary in the fact that I'm white.

Now, you're right.  I haven't done anything wrong, except to be the normal lackadaisical teen.

My parents were strong parents.  But as you've seen from the evidence, my father had a criminal background.  Had he been held to the same standard as black parents nowadays, he would be deprived of financial stability, and despite any "strength" on his part, would have have been able to give me what I apparently needed to succeed.

And your third bolded point.  I didn't make any damned mistakes..  I'm stating that I, along with my siblings, are successful, despite our more or less average intelligence.  It very might well be the case that I and my siblings have experienced some sort of Triumph of the Will in that we've all moved into the upper middle class from our modest upbringings.

But it does not preclude the assertion that black people in similar situations have been denied the same opportunity in our time.  All evidence seems to indicate that that's exactly what's happened.
 
2014-05-25 03:32:30 AM  

log_jammin: log_jammin: Carousel Beast: Does he suggest Egypt should make reparation to the Jews for their long walk out of bondage?

Xetal: I have Jewish ancestry.  Some of my ancestors were made slaves by some of your ancestors a long time ago in Egypt.  I demand that I be compensated for my losses.

officeday: .Yes, the Egyptians paid "reparations" to the Hebrews when the left,


There is zero evidence that the the exodus happened or that ancient Egypt had Hebrew slaves.

and yes I know that no one cares, but it annoys me.


You know, the Bible is a historical record.

*smiles*
*ducks*
 
2014-05-25 03:33:02 AM  

kyrg: When blacks as a group have had their dignity taken away by liberal white guilt,


Which do you think is more destructive of the ability of a randomly chosen black person in 2014: the assault on their "dignity" that was the Great Society plan (a suite of programs most of which were gutted and left to rot on the roadside even before Johnson left office), or the assault on their ability to amass wealth by the FHA and every mortgager in the nation from 1900 until 1965?

Read. The. Farking. Article. Already.
 
2014-05-25 03:37:10 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Babwa Wawa: Waldo Pepper: She passed away 6 weeks ago, why do you want to know.

I'm merely curious because you seem to have issues with authority.

So, tell me about your mother.  How did she treat you?  Are you angry?

[i.imgur.com image 370x269]

wow not even a "sorry to hear about your mom passing" you just keep right on going with your attempt at humor.
i wasn't kidding that my Mom just passed.


You know, just saying, I don't believe a goddamned thing you've said in this entire thread.
 
2014-05-25 03:37:25 AM  

Waldo Pepper: wow not even a "sorry to hear about your mom passing" you just keep right on going with your attempt at humor. 

i wasn't kidding that my Mom just passed.


OK, I'm sorry, your mom died.  But I still want to know why you seem to dismiss academic research simply because it runs counter to the point you're making.

I'm also curious as to why you might want to use sympathy as a foil in your debating method.  This is a technique common to sociopaths.
 
2014-05-25 03:38:06 AM  
I benefited from black oppression. Fine. I probably don't have to go back more than seven generations to find out I exist because of rape.
 
2014-05-25 03:39:41 AM  

whidbey: You know, just saying, I don't believe a goddamned thing you've said in this entire thread.


Given my comment just upthread, I have to say I'm counting on it.  Otherwise I'd feel horrible.

OK, maybe not horrible.  Just a little twinge.  Like that shiver when you have to pee really bad.
 
2014-05-25 03:44:49 AM  
Since I'm a teeny-tiny bit Native American even though by appearances I'm whiter than white bread, I'd like about ten million dollars for all the land the white man stole from 'my people'.

If they want some form of reparations, then they should be asking for parity in education and opportunity so that poor people have something close to an equal chance of succeeding.
 
2014-05-25 03:47:22 AM  

ox45tallboy: In the article I read, the author expressed a conclusion - we should use Federal money to examine the results of centuries of Federal policy of slavery, followed by decades upon decades of institutionalized racism.


Except that he's already drawn his own conclusions, as included in the article. Granted, he didn't have Federal funds to draw upon in his research, and I've already noted his bias, but he does have some pretty solid statements backed by evidence.

 

ox45tallboy: By doing so, we might at least acknowledge it happened. We might also stumble upon some way of making it better.


It's possible. The metaphorical road he describes is pretty much one-way, while a more realistic one may have four lanes in that direction, there's at least one coming back. Any real improvement is going to require a massive cultural shift, multiple shifts really, in America, not just one particular racial segment of it. Most of it has net positive benefits, improving education, employment, and business opportunities would help everyone even if specifically meant to redress inequalities. But it's easy to see how a blunt approach could worsen race relations instead of improving them, by setting unrealistic short-term goals or demanding unreasonable short-term costs. All of that opens up opportunities for politicians of all stripes to pander for their own immediate gain at the cost of the long-term goals, and I can count the number of politicians in my lifetime who wouldn't do that on my thumbs. If I was missing both hands.
 
2014-05-25 03:48:02 AM  
This thread is farking hilarious. So many tears, so many white(ha!) knights on both sides. Oh so many warriors. Good entertainment for all.
 
2014-05-25 03:48:31 AM  

Befuddled: If they want some form of reparations, then they should be asking for parity in education and opportunity so that poor people have something close to an equal chance of succeeding.


And wouldn't it be weird if that were exactly the type of thing the author was calling for?
 
2014-05-25 03:49:21 AM  

Captain Dan: firefly212: As a gay guy... most black people still don't want me to have equal rights... so this whole "reparations" idea seems a bit off to me. They want to tell me who I can/can't marry, but I'm supposed to be working to make them feel better about how they aren't treated nicely enough.

/fark that.

1. Not all black people want to ban gay marriage; aggregate black opinion is split pretty evenly.  Collectively condemning black people based on the actions of some is illogical.

2. Part of being a good person is treating other people well even if they don't treat you well.  Even if every black person in the country opposed gay marriage, it would be immoral to take that as a warrant to treat them poorly.

3. Straight-gay relations are probably the template for the future of race relations.  As long as gays embraced a countercultural / "outside group" identity (for understandable reasons), they were never going to convince most people that they were as fully American as anyone else.  It's only in the past two decades, with the attempts to culturally normalize gay people - as patriotic and moral as straight people - that voter opinion really started shifting towards ending anti-gay discrimination.

It'll be tougher for black people to integrate, just because of economic reasons, but I think that once we get to the point where there's less talk about grievances and more about patriotism and inclusiveness, that's when recalcitrant white people will open their hearts to the real problems facing black people.


1. It's not split evenly, not even close. If you want to talk about not treating people monolithically, talk to the author, not me. I'm not the one who wrote about all black people first, I am just responding to the article. i'm not talking about condemning anyone, I'm saying i'm not going to go out of my way to be extra nice or treat black people any better than I would treat white people... just as i don't go out of my way to be extra nice to the southern baptists, or any other  group who, while a few members may be ok with me, generally are dicks when it comes to equal rights.

2.i don't treat anybody poorly. i don't treat anyone particularly well just on the grounds of race either, no matter what their race is... welcome to equality.

3. Gay people were always the way they are now, the difference isn't integration, and the fact you think that's what happened shows just how off-base you are. The difference was normal gays coming out of the closet and dispelling the myth that all gays are leather bears and drag queens. There were plenty of older gay guys just going about their day to day business, being normal as fark while being portrayed as "outside" or "counter-culture" by groups seeking to discredit them. The image you're thinking of had nothing to do with reality.

/Patriotism is dumb, you're not better than anyone because of what country you were born in. What helps African-Americans integrate is what helped every culture before them integrate... hating on the next guy. With the Italians, the Irish, and the African-Americans... it's the same story... find the next person to hate and join in.
 
2014-05-25 03:49:25 AM  

robohobo: This thread is farking hilarious. So many tears, so many white(ha!) knights on both sides. Oh so many warriors. Good entertainment for all.


Glad you could feel superior, dude.  Good night!
 
2014-05-25 03:59:44 AM  

Cpl.D: Never, in all the history if Fark threads, has one article made it so damned easy to tell, just from the comments, who has read the article, and who has not.


I'm not entirely sure about that. I mean, I read the article, which I displayed pretty thoroughly earlier, but there's a lot of comments on "how this is the most amazingist super thing ever written!" without so much as a hint of any awareness of the particulars, and they seem in even numbers (more or less) to the obvious DNRTFA "reparations for slavery, Noooooo!" comments. This entire thread is an example of Sturgeon's Law in action.

Which I suppose goes to my previous statement about the difficulty of actually having the conversation. Many say they want to have it, few actually contribute anything more than mindless cheerleading or pointless derision to any given viewpoint on it.
There's a poisonous way of thinking that wants to respond to any disagreement with a pithy trump card, a talking point, or a cartoon, to save themselves the difficulty of considering all sides of the matter. I disagree with some of Coates statements, but as a matter of degree not as matters of fact. I think his source overestimates the economic contributions of slavery and institutional racism, but not to the point where they aren't still a weighty factor to consider in his arguments for investment in eliminating the continued effects. More to the point, the moral factor is at least as weighty an argument, not out of some kind of "white guilt" but as an obligation to equally provide the benefits, opportunities, and responsibilities of our society to all of its members.
 
2014-05-25 03:59:55 AM  

Trocadero: /all y'all gots to go


See those rifles they're carrying?

They didn't build that.
 
2014-05-25 04:00:36 AM  

Waldo Pepper: I live in the real world and not a world of "studies". I will as a rule take what I have experienced first and then work from there.


So you have little respect for studies, to the point that you feel like delegitimizing them with quotes.  You know how everyone is always tricking you with "words" and "scientific method".  I really don't know what to say to this except that you sound, at least here in this thread, extremely closed minded and possibly clinically paranoid.

Waldo Pepper: Why is everyone so scared about talking about race and what the feel about it.


Well, clearly not everyone is scared about talking about race.  There's a whole sh*t-ton of people right here in this thread that obviously aren't afraid to talk about race.  Except, they might be reticent to agree with you - maybe that's your point.   You feel like lots of people agree with you, but they are simply afraid to say so.  See previous point w/r/t paranoia.
 
2014-05-25 04:00:52 AM  

vernonFL: OgreMagi: Fark your white guilt. I did nothing wrong and I'll be damned if I am forced to pay penance for something I did not do.

You, your parents, your grandparents, got better treatment and benefited from racism.

You as a person and your friends and family are where they are today in part because of institutional racism.

You did nothing wrong, but you were born into and grew up in and now live in a system that is skewed in your favor.


Where can I go so I don't have to feel guilty about being white?
 
2014-05-25 04:02:59 AM  

Babwa Wawa: So you have little respect for studies


Is this still about that single study mentioned earlier?
 
2014-05-25 04:08:24 AM  
eat da poo poo
 
2014-05-25 04:10:29 AM  
The best thing about this article is it separates the morons from thinking people so efficiently.
 
2014-05-25 04:12:31 AM  

Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo


It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.
 
2014-05-25 04:13:24 AM  

Dr.Zom: The best thing about this article is it separates the morons from thinking people so efficiently.


It certainly cleaves the potato like a hammer. . .
 
2014-05-25 04:14:17 AM  

Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.


jesus was an extraterrestrial
 
2014-05-25 04:15:12 AM  

Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.


Also the 'eat da poo poo' guy was hilarious. The original black dude from africa guy. One of the better internet videos of the past few years. I wonder if he's ever been to Germany.
 
2014-05-25 04:16:14 AM  
Let's call this what it is. Black people want money - and they want it from the white man.

I've never met a black person that gave a crap about the turmoils of any other race. And I've also never met a black person that didn't think the white man owed him something.
 
2014-05-25 04:21:05 AM  

armor helix: Let's call this what it is. Black people want money - and they want it from the white man.

I've never met a black person that gave a crap about the turmoils of any other race. And I've also never met a black person that didn't think the white man owed him something.


I think everyone in this thread needs to undertake a viewing of NBC's late 80's-early 90's race soothing series 'A Different World'. Dwayne Wayne and his glasses were wise beyond their years. I recommend the LA Riots episode. Such masterful commentary.
 
2014-05-25 04:21:30 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org
RICE CRISPIE TREATS
 
2014-05-25 04:24:48 AM  

log_jammin: Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.

jesus was an extraterrestrial


Being black is warrior code.  You couldn't possibly understand.
 
2014-05-25 04:25:29 AM  

Babwa Wawa: The Southern Dandy: OK, so we should cut a check for $.01 to any black person.  I'm cool with that.  Not sure how that penny will be any different from the apology that was already issued by congress.

If you could possibly sit down and dedicate an hour or two to reading the article, you could understand the foundational issues.  In fact, the author doesn't talk about monetary damages - it's about structure, and by all available statistical evidence, the structural impediments to black advancement remain to this day.  (little nugget FTA - statistically, a white felon is as likely to get hired as a black person with a clean record).

Address those, and you'll get to the post-racial society you wish already existed.  And it could be done within a generation.

But hey, if you want to drag this out longer, that's fine.  Let your kids deal with it.  They might be more open minded than you.

Betep: 40 acres and a mule  DIVIDED BY (Babby Momma x Babby Daddy)= ?
 
the seventh of 13 children,

13 kids is just too damn many.

Wow.  This thread is full of crazy racists.  I'm going to bed.


Is 13 Jesus-Lovin Children by white folk insane?
Yes.  Yes it is.
Because you are a Fark Liberal Filled With Outrage and Guilt.
Somehow, I have a feeling that you would biatch about the Duggers and Honey-Boo-Boo.

But Thut teen chilluns with a black woman is OK!

You're a racist man.
 
2014-05-25 04:26:40 AM  

armor helix: Let's call this what it is. Black people want money - and they want it from the white man.


Well, they want opportunities, which lead to money, financial stability, the ability to endure a family disaster, and right now that does seem to be concentrated in "the white man" but I'm pretty sure they'll accept it in any case.

armor helix: I've never met a black person that gave a crap about the turmoils of any other race. And I've also never met a black person that didn't think the white man owed him something


Funnily enough, I've met many who do not meet your description. I've worked for, with, and over many people of all races, and most all of them just felt they were owed a fair chance. Get-over artists were pretty evenly represented among all races and genders, as a very small proportion of the total. I may not be or present an entirely representative sample, but it certainly does strongly imply that your statement is a result of either limited experience or perception.
 
2014-05-25 04:27:33 AM  

Betep: Babwa Wawa: The Southern Dandy: OK, so we should cut a check for $.01 to any black person.  I'm cool with that.  Not sure how that penny will be any different from the apology that was already issued by congress.

If you could possibly sit down and dedicate an hour or two to reading the article, you could understand the foundational issues.  In fact, the author doesn't talk about monetary damages - it's about structure, and by all available statistical evidence, the structural impediments to black advancement remain to this day.  (little nugget FTA - statistically, a white felon is as likely to get hired as a black person with a clean record).

Address those, and you'll get to the post-racial society you wish already existed.  And it could be done within a generation.

But hey, if you want to drag this out longer, that's fine.  Let your kids deal with it.  They might be more open minded than you.

Betep: 40 acres and a mule  DIVIDED BY (Babby Momma x Babby Daddy)= ?
 
the seventh of 13 children,

13 kids is just too damn many.

Wow.  This thread is full of crazy racists.  I'm going to bed.

Is 13 Jesus-Lovin Children by white folk insane?
Yes.  Yes it is.
Because you are a Fark Liberal Filled With Outrage and Guilt.
Somehow, I have a feeling that you would biatch about the Duggers and Honey-Boo-Boo.

But Thut teen chilluns with a black woman is OK!

You're a racist man.


I am not fluent in internet regard, someone care to translate for me?
 
2014-05-25 04:28:09 AM  

Betep: Babwa Wawa: The Southern Dandy: OK, so we should cut a check for $.01 to any black person.  I'm cool with that.  Not sure how that penny will be any different from the apology that was already issued by congress.

If you could possibly sit down and dedicate an hour or two to reading the article, you could understand the foundational issues.  In fact, the author doesn't talk about monetary damages - it's about structure, and by all available statistical evidence, the structural impediments to black advancement remain to this day.  (little nugget FTA - statistically, a white felon is as likely to get hired as a black person with a clean record).

Address those, and you'll get to the post-racial society you wish already existed.  And it could be done within a generation.

But hey, if you want to drag this out longer, that's fine.  Let your kids deal with it.  They might be more open minded than you.

Betep: 40 acres and a mule  DIVIDED BY (Babby Momma x Babby Daddy)= ?
 
the seventh of 13 children,

13 kids is just too damn many.

Wow.  This thread is full of crazy racists.  I'm going to bed.

Is 13 Jesus-Lovin Children by white folk insane?
Yes.  Yes it is.
Because you are a Fark Liberal Filled With Outrage and Guilt.
Somehow, I have a feeling that you would biatch about the Duggers and Honey-Boo-Boo.

But Thut teen chilluns with a black woman is OK!

You're a racist man.


I am not fluent in internet retard, someone care to translate for me?
 
2014-05-25 04:28:46 AM  

BlueDWarrior: I am not fluent in internet regard, someone care to translate for me?


Don't ask me, I'm trying to figure out if everyone else, myself, or the servers had the stroke, because someone did.
 
2014-05-25 04:29:17 AM  
Sorry pHone garbled up and I double posted
 
2014-05-25 04:34:27 AM  

Betep: Is 13 Jesus-Lovin Children by white folk insane?
Yes. Yes it is.
Because you are a Fark Liberal Filled With Outrage and Guilt.
Somehow, I have a feeling that you would biatch about the Duggers and Honey-Boo-Boo.

But Thut teen chilluns with a black woman is OK!

You're a racist man.


in my head, I read this in Allen Ginsberg's voice.
 
2014-05-25 04:37:37 AM  
I wonder, if a person is half black and half white, do they owe reparations to themselves?
 
2014-05-25 04:38:19 AM  
This thread just confirms my belief that the welfare queen is the most destructive modern caricature of Blacks, at least to me.
 
2014-05-25 04:39:45 AM  

Kurmudgeon: I wonder, if a person is half black and half white, do they owe reparations to themselves?


No because we aren't discussing reparations in terms of checks.
 
2014-05-25 04:40:38 AM  

Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.


Your comment literally made me LOL.

I smile a lot reading Fark, I rarely LOL. Cheers!
 
2014-05-25 04:40:44 AM  

Kurmudgeon: I wonder, if a person is half black and half white, do they owe reparations to themselves?


img.fark.net
 
2014-05-25 04:42:21 AM  
Basically, if you disagree with Babwa wawa about a racial issue, that makes you a racist.
 
2014-05-25 04:44:22 AM  

Big Ramifications: Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.

Your comment literally made me LOL.

I smile a lot reading Fark, I rarely LOL. Cheers!


Thanks! Heck, I didn't even know where it came from until the later comments. It just seemed so typically Fark, a completely random statement in the middle of a long thread. Finding the source just made it better.
 
2014-05-25 04:47:15 AM  

Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: This thread just confirms my belief that the welfare queen is the most destructive modern caricature of Blacks, at least to me.

throw in the lazy drug dealing thug young black man who has father 3 or 4 babies with 3 or 4 different moms. 

Hollywood sure doesn't help matters much.


It hurts that general pop culture doesn't reward intelligence in financial terms.

I can go on at length about how I believe the media elite is balkanizing society.
 
2014-05-25 04:47:54 AM  

BlueDWarrior: No because we aren't discussing reparations in terms of checks.


So by reading the article, the banking system put the screws to a bunch of black people.
Make the banks pay if you can, stay specific, if you say the word "reparations", it clouds the issue.
Good luck, the banks have screwed a lot of folks.
 
2014-05-25 04:49:30 AM  

Waldo Pepper: BlueDWarrior: This thread just confirms my belief that the welfare queen is the most destructive modern caricature of Blacks, at least to me.

throw in the lazy drug dealing thug young black man who has father 3 or 4 babies with 3 or 4 different moms. 

Hollywood sure doesn't help matters much.


ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com

/LULZ!
 
2014-05-25 04:53:12 AM  
The article is well-written, and the indictments compelling, but the author stumbles every time he tries to tie it back into reparations, whether it is vaguely suggesting that reparations are a necessary part of acknowledgement of the nation's brutal history, or casually lumping reparations to black Americans with something like German reparations to Israel, or dismissing with a handwave any objection to paying for the crimes of long-dead ancestors. Oddly, despite all the specifics he goes into, the basic problem here IMO is treating the injury done to black Americans over the centuries as a monolithic evil, when really there are some aspects which very much lend themselves to discussion of reparations, and others where that's neither sensible nor productive.
 
2014-05-25 04:56:34 AM  
I don't care how well written it was... they aren't getting any of my money.  If you want money, do what I do. Go to work.


It's 3:30am on a Sunday and I just woke up because it's called a JOB. I don't really care for it, but it allowed me to buy a home, pay off my car, and do things I enjoy during my off time.


Random question:  if they suddenly got their freebie check, would I suddenly be "allowed" to use the N word like they do without fear of getting beaten up or killed? The double standard that exists there pisses me off, along with any racism exhibited by blacks automatically gets a free pass or swept under the rug.   Also:  you could give people millions of dollars and they will wind right back up in the poor house if they aren't smart enough to safe or exercise any self control.

I'd love to sit here and banter some more - but I have to go actually earn my money. You know, with that thing called a job. (and yes, I really do wake up at 3am for work, IT admin for a 24/7 facility)
 
2014-05-25 04:57:11 AM  
It was definitely a thought-provoking article, but there are a few issues I think should have been covered that weren't. Firstly, white people weren't the only slave-holders.  The first permanent slave in the US was a man named John Casor. Prior to Casor's enslavement, black people brought from Africa were indentured servants, with a servitude of seven years.  At the end of their servitude, they were given their freedom and 50 acres.  John Casor's indenture had been bought by a freed black man, who was given the legal right to extend the servitude indefinitely by the courts in 1654.  Thus, the first slave-owner in the colonies was black, rather than white.  This was not a completely isolated event, with several thousand black people being slave owners even in the 1800s. Additionally, Native Americans were also slave owners.

Secondly, just as all slave owners were not all white, all slaves were not all black.  At one point, Irish and Scottish indentured servants cost about 1/10 the price of a black slave or indentured servant. Because of the lower price, in many instances they were treated worse than black slaves. It can be argued that an indenture isn't the same as slavery, but when the owner of the indenture has the power of life and death, there's very little distinction.  Also, Native Americans were enslaved by Europeans throughout the Americas, with over 50,000 Native Americans from the Carolinas alone enslaved.

I believe that rather than direct reparations to black people or even "black communities" reparations should take the form of increased educational opportunities in ALL low-economic communities. These should be provided in conjunction with after-school centers, community gardens, and other such facilities that would both foster a sense of community and empower residents to provide for themselves. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be able to eat every day and all that.

I have ancestors who owned slaves. I have ancestors who were slaves. Because of this, I have a particularly keen interest in slavery, and am working on a project to track down descendants of some of the former slaves interviewed for the slave narrative project in the 1930's. (By the way, anyone interested in slavery in the US should definitely look into these for a first-hand account.) In the slave narratives, the difficulties of life after slavery are detailed, and it is truly appalling what some of these people had to endure, both during slavery and up until the 1930s when the interviews took place. One thing that I've found striking is that the educational level achieved by the children of the former slaves had a quite dramatic effect on the success of succeeding generations.  The greatest success story I've stumbled upon thus far is Augustus Askew.  Augustus was a blacksmith, his wife Irene a laundress. They scrimped and saved and managed to send their children to school. One of their daughters, Mamie, became a school teacher, the other, Gussie, married an engineer.  Gussie's son, Ira Madison, developed the rocket propulsion system still used by NASA.
 
2014-05-25 04:57:35 AM  

Kurmudgeon: BlueDWarrior: No because we aren't discussing reparations in terms of checks.

So by reading the article, the banking system put the screws to a bunch of black people.
Make the banks pay if you can, stay specific, if you say the word "reparations", it clouds the issue.
Good luck, the banks have screwed a lot of folks.


I believe he is trying to expand the idea of reparations from "checks we cut to redress specific grievances" to "reformatting the system to not perpetuate the negative cycles the black community, and by extension most impoverished communities, find themselves in"
 
2014-05-25 04:59:09 AM  

fusillade762: A neighbor who opposed the family said that Bill Myers was "probably a nice guy, but every time I look at him I see $2,000 drop off the value of my house."

It's funny: you still see people using other people's bigotry to justify their own. "We can't let gays adopt kids because they'll get bullied for having gay parents!"


it is a clever way for "thoughtful" and "progressive" people to be totally reactionary.
 
2014-05-25 05:02:56 AM  

Amberleia: It was definitely a thought-provoking article, but there are a few issues I think should have been covered that weren't. Firstly, white people weren't the only slave-holders.  The first permanent slave in the US was a man named John Casor. Prior to Casor's enslavement, black people brought from Africa were indentured servants, with a servitude of seven years.  At the end of their servitude, they were given their freedom and 50 acres.  John Casor's indenture had been bought by a freed black man, who was given the legal right to extend the servitude indefinitely by the courts in 1654.  Thus, the first slave-owner in the colonies was black, rather than white.  This was not a completely isolated event, with several thousand black people being slave owners even in the 1800s. Additionally, Native Americans were also slave owners.

Secondly, just as all slave owners were not all white, all slaves were not all black.  At one point, Irish and Scottish indentured servants cost about 1/10 the price of a black slave or indentured servant. Because of the lower price, in many instances they were treated worse than black slaves. It can be argued that an indenture isn't the same as slavery, but when the owner of the indenture has the power of life and death, there's very little distinction.  Also, Native Americans were enslaved by Europeans throughout the Americas, with over 50,000 Native Americans from the Carolinas alone enslaved.

I believe that rather than direct reparations to black people or even "black communities" reparations should take the form of increased educational opportunities in ALL low-economic communities. These should be provided in conjunction with after-school centers, community gardens, and other such facilities that would both foster a sense of community and empower residents to provide for themselves. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be able to eat every day and all that.

I have ancestors who owned slaves. I have ances ...


That is what we would be driving toward if our discussions and our politics were to take into account the holistic nature of our problems. But right now we are stuck in the mode where we don't even understand the full nature of how the system was (and still is in a lesser sense) rigged against blacks. And that rigging has expanded to catch all impoverished people now.

I'm guessing the only way we are going to get through this is when an entire generation is held back due to being screwed for being poor like generations of blacks have been held back for having the temerity to be born black...
 
2014-05-25 05:04:20 AM  
Lots in here who A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. F*cking sad
 
2014-05-25 05:05:22 AM  
Here's my case against reparations:

You're dividing the poor into "poor people who deserve to be poor" and "poor people who don't" based, at this point in time, entirely on race. You're basically saying to the whites that because of slavery, they don't deserve help getting back above the poverty line

Since a disproportionate percentage of poor people are black (last I checked, anyway), any program to help ALL of the poor disproportionately helps blacks anyway. The idea of reparations attacks white guilt more than the actual problem of poverty in this country.
 
2014-05-25 05:06:11 AM  

accelerus: would I suddenly be "allowed" to use the N word like they do without fear of getting beaten up or killed? The double standard that exists there pisses me off


If you go up to your girlfriend at the bar and put your arm around here and say hey sweetie, that's okay. If I go up to your girlfriend at a bar and put my arm around her and say hey sweetie, that's not okay. It's about context. Black people using the n word is not a double standard, it's a standard. Of all the things you could have brought up to discuss you pick this? You're not a victim because you can't say a word. Get over that, quickly. We've got a hundred issues a thousand times more important to discuss.
 
2014-05-25 05:12:32 AM  
An article like this (incredibly well written by the way) is utterly wasted on the vast majority of posters (so, so many people have made utter clowns of themselves; it's hilarious) here.

But the authors main point is wholly correct; until you acknowledge the past, you'll never begin the process of moving past it.
 
2014-05-25 05:13:56 AM  

Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: Boojum2k: Big Ramifications: eat da poo poo

It's somewhat sad, but also typical of Fark (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter), that this was not actually the worst or dumbest comment in the thread.

Your comment literally made me LOL.

I smile a lot reading Fark, I rarely LOL. Cheers!

Thanks! Heck, I didn't even know where it came from until the later comments. It just seemed so typically Fark, a completely random statement in the middle of a long thread. Finding the source just made it better.


Glad to see you Googled it. After a few years I got in the habit of Googling "random" Fark comments, often getting a nice surprise.

// it had nothing to do with the guy being an African
// it was meant to be completely random
 
2014-05-25 05:16:41 AM  
The touch. The feel. Of cotton.

/the fabric of our lives.
 
2014-05-25 05:19:17 AM  

wasteofspace: Lots in here who A: can't read B: have absolutely no comprehension skills or C: didn't read TFA. F*cking sad


There is also the FarKKK element.
 
2014-05-25 05:20:09 AM