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(New Scientist)   Skinny wormholes could send messages instantly through spacetime, possibly providing time travel, say scientists; to hell with actually, you know, creating a single one in a repeatable, controlled environment, or something   (newscientist.com) divider line 91
    More: Amusing, space-time, environments, Quantum Fluctuation, wormholes, general relativity, scientists, quantum mechanics, optical fibers  
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1511 clicks; posted to Geek » on 22 May 2014 at 10:21 AM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-22 10:03:30 AM
The need to pull their head out of their ass.  All you have to do is direct a tachyon beam towards an itinerant pulsar.
 
2014-05-22 10:12:08 AM
Try reversing the polarity. That usually works.
 
2014-05-22 10:13:31 AM
So, basically, this will let me drunk dial my future ex-girlfriends before I even meet them?  Yay science!
 
2014-05-22 10:17:33 AM
*Beep*

/if you get that, you're a true sci-fi nerd
 
2014-05-22 10:22:00 AM
Skinny wormholes?  I've been sending messages through them before it was cool and mainstream.  It involved a lot of complicated obscure science that you probably aren't aware of.

To tell you the truth, I really liked some of my earlier messages, but lately they just aren't as good as they used to be.

/I sold out
//Mostly sending advertisements now.
 
2014-05-22 10:27:07 AM
That would be fine, but worms aren't the best conversationalists.
 
2014-05-22 10:29:27 AM
Wanted for questioning:
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-05-22 10:30:27 AM
If your going to demand scientists do experiments to prove theories then the global warming mafia is going to sic itself on you.
Don't blame me if you end up covered in charts.
 
2014-05-22 10:31:28 AM
Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or else.
 
2014-05-22 10:31:53 AM
And they make your butt look amazing.
 
2014-05-22 10:36:40 AM
img2.wikia.nocookie.net
Tell these two about it
 
2014-05-22 10:39:17 AM

akya: Skinny wormholes?  I've been sending messages through them before it was cool and mainstream.  It involved a lot of complicated obscure science that you probably aren't aware of.

To tell you the truth, I really liked some of my earlier messages, but lately they just aren't as good as they used to be.

/I sold out
//Mostly sending advertisements now.


How did the hipster burn his tongue?
He drank his coffee before it was cool.


//I'll be here all week.
 
2014-05-22 10:39:45 AM

UberDave: The need to pull their head out of their ass.  All you have to do is direct a tachyon beam towards an itinerant pulsar.


no.  I think they need to bounce the graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish.
 
2014-05-22 10:40:20 AM

James!: Try reversing the polarity. That usually works.


only for the Third Doctor...
 
2014-05-22 10:41:44 AM
Do we really trust humanity not to fark things up if given access to time travel?
 
2014-05-22 10:42:55 AM

jfarkinB: Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or else.


I'm sad that there won't be any more books in that universe.

And subby, hypothesizing things that we have no way of currently testing is how you push the boundaries of physics. You  need a hypothesis before you can  test the hypothesis.
 
2014-05-22 10:43:31 AM

NeverDrunk23: Do we really trust humanity not to fark things up if given access to time travel?


If time travel exists, how do you know we haven't already farked things up?
 
2014-05-22 10:47:04 AM

James!: Try reversing the polarity. That usually works.


Like a balloon, and... something bad happens!
 
2014-05-22 10:48:41 AM
They are not thinking fourth dimensionally.
 
2014-05-22 10:54:43 AM

t3knomanser: NeverDrunk23: Do we really trust humanity not to fark things up if given access to time travel?

If time travel exists, how do you know we haven't already farked things up?


The way the world is today I'd say it's a 99% chance time travel will be invented in the era of Idiotocracy
 
2014-05-22 10:56:00 AM

t3knomanser: NeverDrunk23: Do we really trust humanity not to fark things up if given access to time travel?

If time travel exists, how do you know we haven't already farked things up?


John Crichton and the crew of Moya did a couple of times.  One they weren't able to fix it to the original timeline, but the other time they were.
 
2014-05-22 10:58:51 AM
Nice that the article points out the fundamental problem with Wormholes.  They are completely unstable, as in trying to pass a single neutron of matter will trigger a collapse unstable.  It is the first time I have seen the Casimir effect referred to as "negative energy" though.
 
2014-05-22 11:02:14 AM
What if he just changes the gravitational constant of the universe?
 
2014-05-22 11:08:51 AM
I'm getting a kick as I am currently in the process of filing a patent for a time machine.

/Serious
//Wife is about to divorce me because she thinks I'm crazy
///I am
 
2014-05-22 11:10:06 AM

t3knomanser: You need a hypothesis before you can test the hypothesis


I think submitter was indicating the impossibility of doing the experiment renders the hypothesis nothing more than mere speculation.
 
2014-05-22 11:10:30 AM

t3knomanser: NeverDrunk23: Do we really trust humanity not to fark things up if given access to time travel?

If time travel exists, how do you know we haven't already farked things up?


There's a scifi book where history has already been changed. Columbus starts a war against the Ottomans instead of going west and history turned out so bad that people went back in time to convince him to kill some indians instead.
 
2014-05-22 11:12:47 AM
So subby is confused about how science works? Got it!
 
2014-05-22 11:13:00 AM

8 inches: I'm getting a kick as I am currently in the process of filing a patent for a time machine.

/Serious
//Wife is about to divorce me because she thinks I'm crazy
///I am


I knew you'd surface again ...
www.rankopedia.com
 
2014-05-22 11:18:45 AM
If it were possible, it would have happened by now and we would be receiving these messages from the future. But since it hasn't happened yet... and I've gone cross-eyed.
 
2014-05-22 11:19:01 AM
Anyone know of any good science fiction stories where they create a closed loop communication method through time and one of the following scenarios happens:

A) The method is too overly used to be very useful in the big picture. Every few months, weeks, or days SOMEONE with access to the device has something they feel is worth trying to change so they keep having to keep resetting the loop so messages can't address problems that aren't immediately apparent.

B) The people in charge put safeguards against A but they are too cautious, resulting in no one using the device because someone paranoid about an even worse eventuality that might not be prevented should you waste the loop being created.

C) They actually make lots of the devices for different purposes/time frames to avoid the temptation to go to either extreme but the man hours and resources necessary to maintain such a complex system comes at the cost of other monitoring being ignored and when the big crisis hits there isn't enough time to warn the past before everything ends.

Sounds like stuff Alan Lightman would write. Anyone familiar with those sorts of stories?
 
2014-05-22 11:20:26 AM

jfarkinB: Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or else.


Causality isn't tied to the speed of light.  Just all heretofore seen causality.  This wouldn't represent a violation.
 
2014-05-22 11:24:49 AM

ManateeGag: UberDave: The need to pull their head out of their ass.  All you have to do is direct a tachyon beam towards an itinerant pulsar.

no.  I think they need to bounce the graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish.


That's the way we do things, lad. We're making shiat up as we wish!
 
2014-05-22 11:50:32 AM

xkillyourfacex: I think submitter was indicating the impossibility of doing the experiment renders the hypothesis nothing more than mere speculation.


It's  impractical, not impossible. Those are two different things.

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Columbus starts a war against the Ottomans instead of going west and history turned out so bad that people went back in time to convince him to kill some indians instead.

Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus

 by Orson Scott Card, which solves this problem by creating a suspiciously Mormon flavored Christian utopia. I like the ideas in the book, but it really does show the preachy problems Card has.
 
2014-05-22 12:00:06 PM

8 inches: I'm getting a kick as I am currently in the process of filing a patent for a time machine.

/Serious
//Wife is about to divorce me because she thinks I'm crazy
///I am


Too late.  I went back in time tomorrow to file the patent yesterday.
 
2014-05-22 12:13:43 PM

Prophet of Loss: 8 inches: I'm getting a kick as I am currently in the process of filing a patent for a time machine.

/Serious
//Wife is about to divorce me because she thinks I'm crazy
///I am

I knew you'd surface again ...
[www.rankopedia.com image 543x209]


Haha!  I wish!  Mine only goes FORWARD in time.
 
2014-05-22 12:23:31 PM
CNN want's to know, is this what happened to flight 370?
 
2014-05-22 12:32:22 PM

ikanreed: jfarkinB: Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or else.

Causality isn't tied to the speed of light.  Just all heretofore seen causality.  This wouldn't represent a violation.


Please elaborate. "Effect precedes cause" is about as close to a definition of causality violation as you can get. And time is tied by its very definition to the speed of light -- it's just geometry. If you could "travel faster than light", you would be traveling through time.
 
2014-05-22 12:36:15 PM

Grungehamster: Anyone know of any good science fiction stories where they create a closed loop communication method through time and one of the following scenarios happens:

A) The method is too overly used to be very useful in the big picture. Every few months, weeks, or days SOMEONE with access to the device has something they feel is worth trying to change so they keep having to keep resetting the loop so messages can't address problems that aren't immediately apparent.

B) The people in charge put safeguards against A but they are too cautious, resulting in no one using the device because someone paranoid about an even worse eventuality that might not be prevented should you waste the loop being created.

C) They actually make lots of the devices for different purposes/time frames to avoid the temptation to go to either extreme but the man hours and resources necessary to maintain such a complex system comes at the cost of other monitoring being ignored and when the big crisis hits there isn't enough time to warn the past before everything ends.

Sounds like stuff Alan Lightman would write. Anyone familiar with those sorts of stories?


While not so complex, Asimov's book End of Eternity is a good time travel yarn where an organization tries to keep humanity on a safe path.
 
2014-05-22 12:42:03 PM
I feel like this creates an unhealthy stellar body image for wormholes, a curvy wormhole is a beautiful wormhole too.
 
2014-05-22 12:43:29 PM

t3knomanser: NeverDrunk23: Do we really trust humanity not to fark things up if given access to time travel?

If time travel exists, how do you know we haven't already farked things up?


Because the future refused to change.
 
2014-05-22 12:44:30 PM
Sir Charles Ross nods approvingly.

Grungehamster:
 Anyone know of any good science fiction stories where they create a closed loop communication method through time and one of the following scenarios happens:

A) The method is too overly used to be very useful in the big picture. Every few months, weeks, or days SOMEONE with access to the device has something they feel is worth trying to change so they keep having to keep resetting the loop so messages can't address problems that aren't immediately apparent.

B) The people in charge put safeguards against A but they are too cautious, resulting in no one using the device because someone paranoid about an even worse eventuality that might not be prevented should you waste the loop being created.

C) They actually make lots of the devices for different purposes/time frames to avoid the temptation to go to either extreme but the man hours and resources necessary to maintain such a complex system comes at the cost of other monitoring being ignored and when the big crisis hits there isn't enough time to warn the past before everything ends.

Sounds like stuff Alan Lightman would write. Anyone familiar with those sorts of stories?


Every time a thread like this comes up, it just makes me sad.  The comments are over 95% Star Trek and Doctor Who.  Nothing wrong with that, I love 'em both.  But seriously, folks, READ A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, no one should be allowed to seriously kick around time travel until they've read James P. Hogan's 'Thrice Upon A Time' at least twice.  (His 'Proteus Operation' is a good time travel / alternate history story, too.)

'Thrice Upon A Time' is set mainly in Scotland, in the relatively near future.  Murdoch Ross is a young scientist.  His uncle, Sir Charles, has worked out a mechanism whereby, by using high energy density (not an unrealistic amount of energy, just energy at high density), you could generate 'Tau Waves', which propagated both forward and backward in time.

You could not send mass through time - but by modulating the Tau Waves, you could send messages.

The machine included detectors for the Tau Waves, and obviously, no message could be received before the detectors existed, so no messages back to a point before the machine went on-line.

For me, the best part of the book was the fact that Hogan's team spent a lot of time on the part no other stories cover - working out a theoretical model to cover these phenomena.  They proposed experiments, ran them, gathered data, checked the data against their models, tore them down, and refined them.

Is the universe serial?  Is it parallel?  Do we have the 'infinite branching multiverse' type of structure?  They didn't start out understanding all of this, they had to, you know, actually be scientists and work it out.  And for my money, the theoretical model they ended up with is the finest I have ever seen in Science Fiction, and maybe in Science, too.

But it isn't just a lab geek story - they run into crises, both personal and global, and have to contemplate whether they have the moral authority to use the machine to try and send a message to reconfigure the past.

Really good stuff.  It's got time travel, computers, Scottish castles, and cats.  What more could you want?
 
2014-05-22 12:51:52 PM

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: I've said it before and I'll say it again, no one should be allowed to seriously kick around time travel until they've read James P. Hogan's 'Thrice Upon A Time' at least twice. (His 'Proteus Operation' is a good time travel / alternate history story, too.)


Nicholas D. Wolfwood: and cats.


You like it because of the cats, don't you?  Don't lie.  I should probably actually check the book out though.
 
2014-05-22 12:52:45 PM

jfarkinB: Please elaborate. "Effect precedes cause" is about as close to a definition of causality violation as you can get. And time is tied by its very definition to the speed of light -- it's just geometry. If you could "travel faster than light", you would be traveling through time.


A misleading summary of how the speed of light actually works.  If you could outrun light, you could see something happen, get to a new location, and see reality before it happens.  But you couldn't affect that in some reversal of causality.

We sometimes call that idea time travel, because your frame of reference doesn't matched the observed phenomenon's, but that's NOT the same as effect preceding cause.
 
2014-05-22 12:56:50 PM

ikanreed: But you couldn't affect that in some reversal of causality.


Actually, you can. If I'm going faster than light, I can send a message into my own past.
 
2014-05-22 12:58:00 PM

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Every time a thread like this comes up, it just makes me sad.  The comments are over 95% Star Trek and Doctor Who.  Nothing wrong with that, I love 'em both.  But seriously, folks, READ A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE!


I will have been reading several time travel books at various points in history. So do not have judged me.
 
2014-05-22 01:06:03 PM
One of the things that frustrates me about the treatment of time travel in science fiction -- both filmed and written -- is that it rarely deals with the astonishingly profound philosophical implications.

For example, a typical sci-fi storyline has one or many people dying (applying the usual formula, 1000 dead strangers are worth one dead loved one; or 1 million strangers if it's a soul mate). Then the hero travels back in time, prevents the death(s), and all is right with the world.

But what does it mean for somebody to have been dead, and then to not be? The crudest explanation is that we have "undone" their experience like backing up a movie -- but what does that imply about the nature of personal experience? We all (or most, I guess) imagine our personal experience to be something essentially real, that we are the accumulation of all our Nows, but what does that mean if somebody can erase those experiences from ever having happened?

If you believe in an afterlife, it gets even more deep. When you were dead, presumably you were in Heaven with God (or whatever you happen to believe in)... but now you're yanked back and you no longer have been in Heaven, even though that experience exists outside of time? And what does that look like from God's point of view, given that any reasonable definition of God requires that he exist outside of time and space, and sees all of eternity at a glance? Not only does he see a universe whose history is changing beneath him (and what does "changing" mean to a being who exists outside of time?), but also God can't conveniently forget the ex-dead people who were formerly in Heaven and now aren't.


Frankly, the best explanation for all this is that consciousness, experience, free will, and all the rest are illusions; that we are simply very complex machines in a four-dimensional spacetime that is fixed, and that the only thing remaining to explain is how we subjectively experience the illusion of the passage of time.
 
2014-05-22 01:29:01 PM
czetie: One of the things that frustrates me about the treatment of time travel in science fiction -- both filmed and written -- is that it rarely deals with the astonishingly profound philosophical implications.

For example, a typical sci-fi storyline has one or many people dying (applying the usual formula, 1000 dead strangers are worth one dead loved one; or 1 million strangers if it's a soul mate). Then the hero travels back in time, prevents the death(s), and all is right with the world.

But what does it mean for somebody to have been dead, and then to not be? The crudest explanation is that we have "undone" their experience like backing up a movie -- but what does that imply about the nature of personal experience? We all (or most, I guess) imagine our personal experience to be something essentially real, that we are the accumulation of all our Nows, but what does that mean if somebody can erase those experiences from ever having happened?

If you believe in an afterlife, it gets even more deep. When you were dead, presumably you were in Heaven with God (or whatever you happen to believe in)... but now you're yanked back and you no longer have been in Heaven, even though that experience exists outside of time? And what does that look like from God's point of view, given that any reasonable definition of God requires that he exist outside of time and space, and sees all of eternity at a glance? Not only does he see a universe whose history is changing beneath him (and what does "changing" mean to a being who exists outside of time?), but also God can't conveniently forget the ex-dead people who were formerly in Heaven and now aren't.

Frankly, the best explanation for all this is that consciousness, experience, free will, and all the rest are illusions; that we are simply very complex machines in a four-dimensional spacetime that is fixed, and that the only thing remaining to explain is how we subjectively experience the illusion of the passage of time.


Again, read 'Thrice Upon A Time'.  Yeah, I know, I harp on this a lot.  But one of the things the team was sweating over while they were trying to build - and test - their theoretical model was its implications for free will versus predestination.  For my money, I like the way they went about it, and I like the conclusions they came to.  It was - satisfying - in that it managed to reconcile observed experimental results with observed reality, and many philosophical points.  If anyone wants to dig into it without reading the book, let me know, and I'll abstract the whole thing and post it.  I feel very strongly about the model they ended up with.

47 is the new 42: You like it because of the cats, don't you?  Don't lie.  I should probably actually check the book out though.

Well, I liked it because of the cat (Maxwell, named after James Clerk Maxwell), but not *only* because of him.  He made a nice comic relief - getting trapped inside an old suit of armor - and once in a while advancing the plot (tripping up a young lady so she and Murdoch could meet and fall in love).

But for me, the real draw from the book is, was, and always shall be, the sheer beauty and comprehensive nature of their theoretical model of 'time travel'.

Hogan had been a salesman for DEC during his career, and for a book written in 1980 - before the IBM PC, let alone today's internet - he got a lot of things right.  He predicted the internet, in some ways, in this book.  But in other ways, he missed the boat on how quickly computers advanced.  For example, to receive an incoming message of 50 megabytes, they had to reserve storage on the net.

Still a damn good read.

("So", said the Minister, "What do you have to say about the fact that you have apparently been tampering with history?"

Sir Charles tossed it off, "That was some other Charlie Ross in some other universe.  Talk to him about it.")
 
2014-05-22 01:33:07 PM
Snarfangel: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Every time a thread like this comes up, it just makes me sad.  The comments are over 95% Star Trek and Doctor Who.  Nothing wrong with that, I love 'em both.  But seriously, folks, READ A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE!

I will have been reading several time travel books at various points in history. So do not have judged me.


I will not have done that.  I will have been addressing the mythical 'average poster' on these threads.  What are FARKers if not a large collection of outliers?

/The avalanche has begun.  It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
//This is wrong tool.  Never use this.
///No one listens to poor Zathras.
 
2014-05-22 01:51:38 PM

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Again, read 'Thrice Upon A Time'. Yeah, I know, I harp on this a lot. But one of the things the team was sweating over while they were trying to build - and test - their theoretical model was its implications for free will versus predestination. For my money, I like the way they went about it, and I like the conclusions they came to. It was - satisfying - in that it managed to reconcile observed experimental results with observed reality, and many philosophical points. If anyone wants to dig into it without reading the book, let me know, and I'll abstract the whole thing and post it. I feel very strongly about the model they ended up with.


Thanks, I'll give it a look. I fell away from reading sci-fi a long time ago (not for any good reason, but simply because I was no longer part of a circle of friends who knew my tastes and made good recommendations.)

Star Trek in particular annoys me: it's as if the characters say "well, we just undertook a trip with profoundly disturbing implications about the nature of reality and the role of free will. Let us never speak of this again."
 
2014-05-22 01:57:31 PM
What a time-travelling, mini-wormhole-riding communication device might look like:
www.zuguide.com
 
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