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(Telegraph)   Lenovo overtakes Apple in personal computer market for first time after marketing campaign to target people who don't have an all-black wardrobe or inexplicable jobs of some sort that require them to hang around coffee shops all day   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 46
    More: Interesting, lenovo, markets, record sales  
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873 clicks; posted to Business » on 21 May 2014 at 2:47 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-21 12:28:19 PM  
img.fark.net
Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.
 
2014-05-21 01:16:08 PM  

whistleridge: [img.fark.net image 850x416]
Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.


I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues.  That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.

We have hundreds of Lenovo notebooks in the field- they're amongst my favourite Windows based systems.  Reliable, great feature set, pretty durable.  I've still had bad batches or model variations where an unacceptably high percentage had problems, but it hasn't been bad enough to go back to HP or Toshiba, both of which have had precipitous drop offs in quality over the years.

But I'm more than happy that you and millions of others make the decision that you do, because it's putting my kids through college.   In the meantime, my business runs nothing but Macs- because we don't get paid to work on our own computers.

Am I a fan?  For sure.  But I come by that fandom honestly- after touching thousands of systems in hundreds of situations.  I'm possibly the most notebook-dependent and hardest person on technology you'll meet.  After literally dropping, kicking, hucking, denting, and splashing my way through lots of MacBooks, I'm convinced that nothing short of a Panasonic toughbook is it's rival in the durability department.

And disaster recovery is much, much, simpler in the OSX world.   What matters to me is productivity, ease of lifecycle management, and total cost of ownership.  When you do that math, the Lenovo isn't the bargain it looks to be.
 
2014-05-21 02:40:45 PM  
Done in one.
 
2014-05-21 02:55:41 PM  
I love my Lenovo ThinkPad. Had it for 2 years. Previous one I bought in 2004, granted that was an IBM ThinkPad, so not Lenovo. But yeah I was rocking an 8 year old ThinkPad in 2012.

Great value for me.
 
2014-05-21 03:09:42 PM  

unyon: whistleridge: [img.fark.net image 850x416]
Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.

I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues. That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.

We have hundreds of Lenovo notebooks in the field ― they're amongst my favourite Windows based systems. Reliable, great feature set, pretty durable. I've still had bad batches or model variations where an unacceptably high percentage had problems, but it hasn't been bad enough to go back to HP or Toshiba, both of which have had precipitous drop offs in quality over the years.

But I'm more than happy that you and millions of others make the decision that you do, because it's putting my kids through college. In the meantime, my business runs nothing but Macs- because we don't get paid to work on our own computers.

Am I a fan?  For sure.  But I come by that fandom honestly ― after touching thousands of systems in hundreds of situations. I'm possibly the most notebook-dependent and hardest person on technology you'll meet.  After literally dropping, kicking, hucking, denting, and splashing my way through lots of MacBooks, I'm convinced that nothing short of a Panasonic toughbook is its rival in the durability department.

And disaster recovery is much, much, simpler in the OSX world. What matters to me is productivity, ease of lifecycle management, and total cost of ownership. When you do that math, the Lenovo isn't the bargain it looks to be.

Another thing to consider is that the Lenovo shown is a multitouch screen, and the MacBook Air isn't a touch screen at all (none of the current Mac notebooks are, not even the top-of-the-line quad-core MacBook Pro 15"), though it does have a multitouchpad (which lets you use multitouch gestures and software that works best with them, but not directly on the screen). This is a major consideration for graphics applications, such as the awesome new Touch Type feature of Adobe Illustrator CC which lets you grab and manipulate (rotate, stretch, etc.) individual characters of (say) a logo with multitouch gestures, doing in seconds what would normally take minutes or even hours.
 
2014-05-21 03:16:48 PM  
Maybe it's because Apple is the farking worst company in history when it comes to user-interface development?  Their motto seems to be "Give the user only ONE way to accomplish a task, and pick the least intuitive and most inconvenient way you can think of.  Then patent it and convince a bunch of idiots how innovative you are."

Either that or "Apple - yeah, we can't remember why your device is doing that either.  But we've cleaned up the screen to remove any indicators that might help you figure it out.  You know, to keep down the clutter."

Good battery life, though.
 
2014-05-21 03:19:47 PM  

COMALite J: Another thing to consider is that the Lenovo shown is a multitouch screen, and the MacBook Air isn't a touch screen at all (none of the current Mac notebooks are, not even the top-of-the-line quad-core MacBook Pro 15"), though it does have a multitouchpad (which lets you use multitouch gestures and software that works best with them, but not directly on the screen). This is a major consideration for graphics applications, such as the awesome new Touch Type feature of Adobe Illustrator CC which lets you grab and manipulate (rotate, stretch, etc.) individual characters of (say) a logo with multitouch gestures, doing in seconds what would normally take minutes or even hours.


We offer a touchscreen laptop to our employees.  You know how many times I've seen someone use the touchscreen?

-zero-

Touchscreen simply doesn't work in that form factor.  As time goes on you'll see more tablets with keyboards then traditional laptops with touchscreen.
 
2014-05-21 03:21:06 PM  

tillerman35: "Give the user only ONE way to accomplish a task, and pick the least intuitive and most inconvenient way you can think of.  Then patent it and convince a bunch of idiots how innovative you are."


This just tells me you've never use an Apple product in your life.

/yawn
 
2014-05-21 03:21:24 PM  

unyon: We have hundreds of Lenovo notebooks in the field- they're amongst my favourite Windows based systems.


I had wondered about that, especially after the buy-out. When I worked (contracted) for Big Blue in 2005, I was given a T41. Man, that thing was solid. Makes the Latitudes I've been given since seem like toys.

Glad they kept up the quality.
 
2014-05-21 03:45:26 PM  

unyon: I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues.  That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.


Unless you're one of the millions who are either unemployed or underemployed, but still want to use the internet and do other basic computing functions like, say, draft  resume. Then the $400 difference isn't a 4 hour capital cost difference, it's an extra month's rent, or 6 weeks of food, or 6 months' beer money, or 2 months' gas money.

I'm just saying.
 
2014-05-21 03:49:50 PM  
I reading this thread on a Thinkpad T530, so I am getting a kick out of these replies.

What I really what is the new Y50 Touch Laptop with a 4Gb discrete NVIDIA video adapter and 1 Tb HDD. Great for work and gaming.

/Still unsure about Windows 8
 
2014-05-21 04:33:21 PM  

whistleridge: unyon: I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues.  That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.

Unless you're one of the millions who are either unemployed or underemployed, but still want to use the internet and do other basic computing functions like, say, draft  resume. Then the $400 difference isn't a 4 hour capital cost difference, it's an extra month's rent, or 6 weeks of food, or 6 months' beer money, or 2 months' gas money.

I'm just saying.


Yeah, but if you're one of those millions, and you're buying a brand-new laptop, rather than something a couple of years old (and maybe a refurb), you are still showing poor technological decision making skills.

A $200 tool now means you can accomplish what you want, and have a head start on next month's rent, or 3 weeks of food, or 3 months' beer money, or a months' gas money.

Just sayin'.
 
2014-05-21 04:40:46 PM  

gingerjet: This just tells me you've never use an Apple product in your life.


I've used an Apple product and I think his take is bang on.
 
2014-05-21 04:40:48 PM  

whistleridge: [img.fark.net image 850x416]
Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.


These two machines aren't in the same class. An i5 to vs an i3 and an SSD vs a normal Hard drive.

There are also several additional differences that you failed to point out that also contributed to the price difference.
 
2014-05-21 04:45:22 PM  

Clent: These two machines aren't in the same class. An i5 to vs an i3 and an SSD vs a normal Hard drive.


That doesn't make a difference of over $400.
 
2014-05-21 04:53:44 PM  

Clent: whistleridge: [img.fark.net image 850x416]
Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.

These two machines aren't in the same class. An i5 to vs an i3 and an SSD vs a normal Hard drive.

There are also several additional differences that you failed to point out that also contributed to the price difference.


...none of which are sufficient enough to make up for the fact that it's over twice as expensive. I agree, the Macbook is a better computer, but it doesn't actually provide enough improved functionality or value for an average to justify the cost difference.

Gonz: A $200 tool now means you can accomplish what you want, and have a head start on next month's rent, or 3 weeks of food, or 3 months' beer money, or a months' gas money.


I fully agree. Which is why I'm typing this on a $250 Acer netbook. I was just too lazy to look for literally the cheapest Lenovo available. I could afford more, but I know I don't need it. Computers have gotten cheap enough now that, unless you genuinely need superior performance for a specialized function, the bare-bones off the shelf models will be lighter, cheaper, and better than the $3000 models from 4 years ago.
 
2014-05-21 05:07:46 PM  
There are sites out there for doing a proper comparisons, here's the first result I found with a Google search  http://laptops-and-notebooks.findthebest.com/compare/1436-1981/MacBoo k -Air-11-inch-mid-2013-vs-IdeaPad-S400-Touch read it or don't.

If you're looking for a cheap computer, get a cheap computer. Your petulance doesn't mean you should go about spreading disinformation.
 
2014-05-21 05:10:14 PM  

whistleridge: ...none of which are sufficient enough to make up for the fact that it's over twice as expensive. I agree, the Macbook is a better computer, but it doesn't actually provide enough improved functionality or value for an average to justify the cost difference.


You can say the same for any machine with an i5 and SSD vs i3 and spinning platter. That's not just an Apple issue.
 
2014-05-21 05:50:41 PM  
As the company I'm working for currently is an all Lenovo shop (okay not all but 95%...some Dells are scattered around), Lenovo laptops are pretty dang solid and reliable.

We don't get the very high end laptops but the ones we do get still work well.
 
2014-05-21 05:54:54 PM  
If I'm reading that story right, Lenovo shipped more PCs than Apple, but considering how much more Apples cost, Lenovo's whimpy $1B in profit is nothing compared to Apple's $37B. If I wrote that story I think I might have mentioned that. And what's wrong with using a % sign instead of pc? English pub right.
 
2014-05-21 06:14:17 PM  

COMALite J: Another thing to consider is that the Lenovo shown is a multitouch screen, and the MacBook Air isn't a touch screen at all (none of the current Mac notebooks are, not even the top-of-the-line quad-core MacBook Pro 15"), though it does have a multitouchpad (which lets you use multitouch gestures and software that works best with them, but not directly on the screen). This is a major consideration for graphics applications, such as the awesome new Touch Type feature of Adobe Illustrator CC which lets you grab and manipulate (rotate, stretch,etc.) individual characters of (say) a logo with multitouch gestures, doing in seconds what would normally take minutes or even hours.


Sure, there are lots of specialized situations where one makes more sense than another.  You won't get any argument from me there.  Personally, the only benefit I've ever noticed from touchscreen notebooks is that they make navigating Win 8 slightly more tolerable. But again, that's not the point that I'm making.  The feeds and speeds are irrelevant.  The only thing that matter is:  Can it do what I need to do today and in the foreseeable future, is it reliable, and is the management overhead on it as low as possible?  Every time I migrate an app from one mac to another by dragging and dropping it, or bail a user out of the weeds in minutes rather than hours or days with a time machine restore, I'm reminded of what a PITA these commonly required tasks are in the Windows world.  There are things that should be baked into the OS at this point that aren't.

whistle ridge: Unless you're one of the millions who are either unemployed or underemployed, but still want to use the internet and do other basic computing functions like, say, draft  resume. Then the $400 difference isn't a 4 hour capital cost difference, it's an extra month's rent, or 6 weeks of food, or 6 months' beer money, or 2 months' gas money. I'm just saying.

Oh, there are a lot of capital cost considerations.  Hey, why not save another $200 and go with a tablet?  But if that person is reliant on their notebook for their livelihood, then having it go offline for any period of time, whether that's software or hardware or user driven, is a direct hit to productivity.  That's actual cash money that's either not coming in, going out to someone to fix the problem, or both.  Those costs will be there regardless.

It's like the theory of the $20 boots vs the $100 boots.  Both the moneyed and the poor guy need boots for work.  But the poor guy, not having cash on hand, buys the $20 boots that last 6 months.  The guy with a little scratch buys the good $100 boots that last 5 years.  In 3 years, the poor guy will have paid more than the guy that bought the good boots.  That's a basic total cost of ownership calculation.  That's my point.
 
2014-05-21 06:23:38 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-05-21 06:27:35 PM  

Norfolking Chance: whistleridge: ...none of which are sufficient enough to make up for the fact that it's over twice as expensive. I agree, the Macbook is a better computer, but it doesn't actually provide enough improved functionality or value for an average to justify the cost difference.

You can say the same for any machine with an i5 and SSD vs i3 and spinning platter. That's not just an Apple issue.


Agreed. However, since that's the only configuration possible with Mac, it's a moot point.

I have heard it mentioned before that people think Apple is a company that sells overpriced phones and computers, but that they are in fact a company that sells overpriced memory, that just comes packaged in phones and computers.
 
2014-05-21 06:32:16 PM  

whistleridge: Norfolking Chance: whistleridge: ...none of which are sufficient enough to make up for the fact that it's over twice as expensive. I agree, the Macbook is a better computer, but it doesn't actually provide enough improved functionality or value for an average to justify the cost difference.

You can say the same for any machine with an i5 and SSD vs i3 and spinning platter. That's not just an Apple issue.

Agreed. However, since that's the only configuration possible with Mac, it's a moot point.

I have heard it mentioned before that people think Apple is a company that sells overpriced phones and computers, but that they are in fact a company that sells overpriced memory, that just comes packaged in phones and computers.


Apple has found a way to break Moore's Law.
 
2014-05-21 06:48:26 PM  
Reading this on a T420, so I'm getting a kick, etc etc.

ThinkPads are still great machines, thankfully. Keep up the good work Lenovo!
 
2014-05-21 06:57:02 PM  

whistleridge: unyon: I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues.  That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.

Unless you're one of the millions who are either unemployed or underemployed, but still want to use the internet and do other basic computing functions like, say, draft  resume. Then the $400 difference isn't a 4 hour capital cost difference, it's an extra month's rent, or 6 weeks of food, or 6 months' beer money, or 2 months' gas money.

I'm just saying.


$600 for six months of beer money? What kind of horrible spendthrift are you? You bastard!
 
2014-05-21 06:57:56 PM  

listernine: whistleridge: unyon: I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues.  That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.

Unless you're one of the millions who are either unemployed or underemployed, but still want to use the internet and do other basic computing functions like, say, draft  resume. Then the $400 difference isn't a 4 hour capital cost difference, it's an extra month's rent, or 6 weeks of food, or 6 months' beer money, or 2 months' gas money.

I'm just saying.

$600 for six months of beer money? What kind of horrible spendthrift are you? You bastard!


Whoops. $400. You're still a bastard.
 
2014-05-21 07:43:30 PM  
I bought my Lenovo about a year ago... 15.6" screen, 2 USB 3.0 / 2 USB 2.0 ports, HDMI, Bluetooth, WiFi, DVD drive, 8 GB RAM, dual-core processor... Only spec I didn't like was the 320 GB 5400 RPM HDD....

It was originally $349 on sale for $279... Rang up at register as $199... Employee thought that was wrong, went and asked a manager, the manager said it was the last new one in stock and discontinued and I could have it for $149... Had a $20 coupon, so the final price was $129...

Ended up buying a 128 GB SSD on sale for $99 and using it for the OS and a 1 TB external HDD USB 3.0 for storage, on sale for $49...

Total final cost- $277, $2 less that the sale price I thought I was originally paying. Nice little laptop, very happy with it overall, never a single problem!
 
2014-05-21 07:52:51 PM  

EngineerAU: [img.fark.net image 225x210]


access.redhat.com

upload.wikimedia.org

ZOMFG! Nothing is perfect!!!

/At least you sort of have an idea with Windows/Linux
 
2014-05-21 07:57:34 PM  
Macdonalds sells more products then Olive Garden, video at 11.
 
2014-05-21 08:01:00 PM  
I farking love my work X220. The keyboard is just so wonderful to type on. It pains me to use other laptop keyboards.
 
2014-05-21 08:45:19 PM  

Rev.K: gingerjet: This just tells me you've never use an Apple product in your life.

I've used an Apple product and I think his take is bang on.


Nope. There's usually three ways to do just about anything.
 
2014-05-21 09:15:21 PM  

Your Hind Brain: EngineerAU: [img.fark.net image 225x210]

[access.redhat.com image 722x404]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x480]

ZOMFG! Nothing is perfect!!!

/At least you sort of have an idea with Windows/Linux


Attempting to kill init crashes the kernel? I've tried it before with a -9 switch and all it did was... nothing at all :(
 
2014-05-21 09:18:31 PM  
I've had two ThinkPads, and I love them for business.  Both weren't high powered or sexy machines, but they were powerful enough to do work.  The best part about them is they felt nearly indestructible.  They are great if you travel and are going to give a laptop a beating.
 
2014-05-21 09:48:31 PM  

unyon: whistleridge: [img.fark.net image 850x416]
Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.

I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues.  That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.

We have hundreds of Lenovo notebooks in the field- they're amongst my favourite Windows based systems.  Reliable, great feature set, pretty durable.  I've still had bad batches or model variations where an unacceptably high percentage had problems, but it hasn't been bad enough to go back to HP or Toshiba, both of which have had precipitous drop offs in quality over the years.

But I'm more than happy that you and millions of others make the decision that you do, because it's putting my kids through college.   In the meantime, my business runs nothing but Macs- because we don't get paid to work on our own computers.

Am I a fan?  For sure.  But I come by that fandom honestly- after touching thousands of systems in hundreds of situations.  I'm possibly the most notebook-dependent and hardest person on technology you'll meet.  After literally dropping, kicking, hucking, denting, and splashing my way through lots of MacBooks, I'm convinced that nothing short of a Panasonic toughbook is it's rival in the durability department.

And disaster recovery is much, much, simpler in the OSX world.   What matters to me is productivity, ease of lifecycle management, and total cost of ownership.  When you do that math, the Lenovo isn't the bargain it looks to be.


Since apparently you are running a fleet of mac books...I take it you have never had the bloating battery issue yet.

Because every single mac book at my work has had that issue...even to the point that the battery expanded to the point of cracking the case of a laptop.
 
2014-05-21 10:06:31 PM  
snowshovel:Since apparently you are running a fleet of mac books...I take it you have never had the bloating battery issue yet. Because every single mac book at my work has had that issue...even to the point that the battery expanded to the point of cracking the case of a laptop.

Dude - you are still buying the "I make lotsa money off dumb PC users but only use Macs cuz I'm smrt" CSB?
To the point that you seriously respond to it?
And you've seen it how many hundreds of times?
Geez, dude.
 
2014-05-22 12:11:42 AM  

whistleridge: Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.


For that 100% price increase you're getting a 300% battery life increase.
 
2014-05-22 01:19:18 AM  
snowshovel: Since apparently you are running a fleet of mac books...I take it you have never had the bloating battery issue yet.

Because every single mac book at my work has had that issue...even to the point that the battery expanded to the point of cracking the case of a laptop.


I'm aware of the issue, but I've never seen it even once in the field.  There were a couple suspect cases with early 2006 MacBooks when the trackpad seemed to have gone squirrelly, but even they turned out to be false positives.  I've been driving a 2012 Macbook for a while now, and they don't run hot.  I'm hard pressed to get the fans to spin up, even under load.
 
2014-05-22 01:37:44 AM  

jso2897: snowshovel:Since apparently you are running a fleet of mac books...I take it you have never had the bloating battery issue yet. Because every single mac book at my work has had that issue...even to the point that the battery expanded to the point of cracking the case of a laptop.

Dude - you are still buying the "I make lotsa money off dumb PC users but only use Macs cuz I'm smrt" CSB?
To the point that you seriously respond to it?
And you've seen it how many hundreds of times?
Geez, dude.


I didn't say PC users are dumb, even if that's what you think you heard.  There are lots of great reasons to have a PC, I recommend them all the time.  I'm just saying that outside of specific software and economies of scale, if you're already have a foot in the Mac world with other devices, there are huge advantages to committing to it.

One example:  I've lost count of the number of times someone has had a drive go squirrelly and they want to recover applications off the notebook, usually expensive ones like Office or Autocad.  Anyone in the Windows world will tell you that you're screwed without the install media.  In the Mac world, you can simply drag and drop between systems.  The application isn't installed with a manure spreader.  It's heading in the direction of making computing as simple as driving a toaster.  Isn't that the sort of OS evolution we should be encouraging?

Second example: Backup.  I'm gobsmacked that Win 8 is actually less intuitive when it comes for backup than it's predecessors.  Backup is really, really easy to solve.  It should be simple to turn on, configure, and restore from in a very simple fashion.  There should be absolutely no excuse for not having a local full and ideally an offsite incremental.  But that it's not baked that way into the OS, as it has been with OSX for 5 generations now, is head shaking.
 
2014-05-22 03:38:01 AM  
I love every MacBook I've had. Fanboy, cold dead hands, etc. But if I had to buy a Wintop it'd be a Lenovo. Great machines.

/ Win7, of course. :)
 
2014-05-22 05:28:40 AM  

unyon: jso2897: snowshovel:Since apparently you are running a fleet of mac books...I take it you have never had the bloating battery issue yet. Because every single mac book at my work has had that issue...even to the point that the battery expanded to the point of cracking the case of a laptop.

Dude - you are still buying the "I make lotsa money off dumb PC users but only use Macs cuz I'm smrt" CSB?
To the point that you seriously respond to it?
And you've seen it how many hundreds of times?
Geez, dude.

I didn't say PC users are dumb, even if that's what you think you heard.  There are lots of great reasons to have a PC, I recommend them all the time.  I'm just saying that outside of specific software and economies of scale, if you're already have a foot in the Mac world with other devices, there are huge advantages to committing to it.

One example:  I've lost count of the number of times someone has had a drive go squirrelly and they want to recover applications off the notebook, usually expensive ones like Office or Autocad.  Anyone in the Windows world will tell you that you're screwed without the install media.  In the Mac world, you can simply drag and drop between systems.  The application isn't installed with a manure spreader.  It's heading in the direction of making computing as simple as driving a toaster.  Isn't that the sort of OS evolution we should be encouraging?

Second example: Backup.  I'm gobsmacked that Win 8 is actually less intuitive when it comes for backup than it's predecessors.  Backup is really, really easy to solve.  It should be simple to turn on, configure, and restore from in a very simple fashion.  There should be absolutely no excuse for not having a local full and ideally an offsite incremental.  But that it's not baked that way into the OS, as it has been with OSX for 5 generations now, is head shaking.


Did you quote the wrong post?  Your "response" has so little to do with what I posted that I have to ask.
 
2014-05-22 08:19:34 AM  

whistleridge: [img.fark.net image 850x416]
Macs are fine. They're well made, they're stable, they're great for graphics and music applications, and they're seamless. But at the end of the day, if you compare two computers for screen size, RAM, hard drive space, and price...the Lenovo has a bigger screen, the same RAM, a larger hard drive, and half the price. If *I'm* the one paying for it, I'll take the Lenovo/Acer/Toshiba/etc every single time. The difference between the quality of solid state and a a disk-platter hard drive just isn't worth a 100% price increase.


Especially since you can get a reasonable sized (240GB) SSD for just over $100 now.

NateAsbestos: Reading this on a T420, so I'm getting a kick, etc etc.

ThinkPads are still great machines, thankfully. Keep up the good work Lenovo!


I generally agree, but the level of "polish" that comes with an Apple product just isn't there.  I have one of their X1 Carbon models at my desk (notably more expensive than a standard Thinkpad) and the touchpad makes a notable "tap" sound, as if the screws holding it in weren't tightened completely.
 
2014-05-22 08:22:36 AM  

unyon: snowshovel: Since apparently you are running a fleet of mac books...I take it you have never had the bloating battery issue yet.

Because every single mac book at my work has had that issue...even to the point that the battery expanded to the point of cracking the case of a laptop.

I'm aware of the issue, but I've never seen it even once in the field.  There were a couple suspect cases with early 2006 MacBooks when the trackpad seemed to have gone squirrelly, but even they turned out to be false positives.  I've been driving a 2012 Macbook for a while now, and they don't run hot.  I'm hard pressed to get the fans to spin up, even under load.


Yeah, the weird thing is, it's not a heat issue from what we can tell. It's a "the gasses build up in the battery pockets and expand" issue, eventually pressing outward on the battery casings.

And yes, it usually starts with the trackpad going bad, since that's where the "bloat" initially presses (on the underside of the trackpads). We couldn't figure out why all of the trackpads were having issues after a few minutes of use. So we took the first one apart to see what the problem was, couldn't find anything, then tried to put it back together again...and the battery refused to fit; now that it wasn't cramped in the battery space, it was allowed to bloat out naturally.

The one machine that didn't have the trackpad issue is the one where the bloat essentially expanded inside to the point that it completely cracked the housing of the laptop case. It's quite frightening, actually...since your natural response is to open up the battery, and poke and pod at the little ballooning packets, but you have no idea what kind of crazy chemical gases you'd release when you do that.
 
2014-05-22 09:16:21 AM  

whistleridge: unyon: I'm a guy with a fleet of guys that makes $120/hr dealing with businesses network and system issues.  That capital cost difference amounts to about 4 hours over the life of the system, or one serious issue.  Or one migration at the beginning or end of life of the system, which is a certainty.  If you're only looking at the difference between those systems as the cost of their respective parts, then you've missed the point.

Unless you're one of the millions who are either unemployed or underemployed, but still want to use the internet and do other basic computing functions like, say, draft  resume. Then the $400 difference isn't a 4 hour capital cost difference, it's an extra month's rent, or 6 weeks of food, or 6 months' beer money, or 2 months' gas money.

I'm just saying.


You meant to say six DAYS of beer money, right?
 
2014-05-22 09:31:20 AM  
Macs are more expensive because people will pay the money for them. That being said, I've been using macs since '94 and haven't had any desire to switch. I run Windows on it via Boot Camp for gaming and such, and the OSX side for music and everything else.

/Logic is the best recording program out there
 
2014-05-22 03:38:34 PM  

gingerjet: COMALite J: Another thing to consider is that the Lenovo shown is a multitouch screen, and the MacBook Air isn't a touch screen at all (none of the current Mac notebooks are, not even the top-of-the-line quad-core MacBook Pro 15"), though it does have a multitouchpad (which lets you use multitouch gestures and software that works best with them, but not directly on the screen). This is a major consideration for graphics applications, such as the awesome new Touch Type feature of Adobe Illustrator CC which lets you grab and manipulate (rotate, stretch, etc.) individual characters of (say) a logo with multitouch gestures, doing in seconds what would normally take minutes or even hours.

We offer a touchscreen laptop to our employees. You know how many times I've seen someone use the touchscreen?

-zero-

Touchscreen simply doesn't work in that form factor. As time goes on you'll see more tablets with keyboards then traditional laptops with touchscreen.

And how many of those people use software that would benefit from mulitouch, like Corel Painter or the aforementioned Adobe Illustrator CC (latest update)? Granted, a Wacom Cintiq monitor would be even better, but they typically cost more than the computer.

That said, other considerations that whistleridge neglected to include in his summary comparison are the fact that while the screen is smaller on the Apple, it's the same pixel resolution meaning higher pixel density (and the 13″ Air, at only $100 more than the 11″ model, has a screen that's still a bit smaller than the Lenovo's but has higher pixel resolution for more actual usable screen real estate: 1440×900 instead of 1366×768 [still not Retina, of course]), roughly twice as much battery life (unless you're using this as a desktop replacement that'll be chained to a desk and external monitor and such, this is a significant consideration), and about ½ the weight (also a significant consideration for any portable use scenario),

Your Hind Brain: EngineerAU: [img.fark.net image 225x210]

[access.redhat.com image 722x404]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x480]

ZOMFG! Nothing is perfect!!!

/At least you sort of have an idea with Windows/Linux

Mac OS X is based on Darwin which is Apple's open-source distro of FreeBSD Unix, so it can get Kernel Panics as well. The spinning beachball curor usually just refers to a single app delay or freeze-up, just as Windows 7 spinning its cursor and the screen fading out for a particular application window. And just as with Windows, you can easily kill a frozen app in Mac OS X without shutting down the whole system. The key combo to call that up is even similar: [Command]+[Option]+[Esc].

whistleridge: Norfolking Chance: whistleridge: ...none of which are sufficient enough to make up for the fact that it's over twice as expensive. I agree, the Macbook is a better computer, but it doesn't actually provide enough improved functionality or value for an average to justify the cost difference.

You can say the same for any machine with an i5 and SSD vs i3 and spinning platter. That's not just an Apple issue.

Agreed. However, since that's the only configuration possible with Mac, it's a moot point.

I have heard it mentioned before that people think Apple is a company that sells overpriced phones and computers, but that they are in fact a company that sells overpriced memory, that just comes packaged in phones and computers.

It's not the only configuration possible. It's just the minimum. Apple doesn't want to put slow CPUs and slow/fragile hard drives in their laptops. The 11″ Air can be upgraded to 512GB SSD and up to 1.7GHz dual-Core i7 CPU. The higher-end models and MacBook Pros can go higher still, of course.
 
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