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(The New Yorker)   A study attempts to see if it's possible to change parents' anti-vaccination beliefs. The results: we're screwed   (newyorker.com) divider line 66
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1749 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 May 2014 at 1:09 PM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-20 11:09:40 AM
It's a cultural truth. If the influential people around them all changed their minds and we publicly shamed them in the manner of the McCarthy anticommunist witch hunts or even the witch hunts.., then we would see a backlash even among the indoctrinated.

Consider it a downside of an open and tolerant society.

(Note that we also somehow tolerate Teatards)
 
2014-05-20 11:29:11 AM
You can't fix stupid.
 
2014-05-20 11:38:46 AM

hb0mb: You can't fix stupid.


I was gonna say we need a vaccine against stupidity, but they wouldn't take it anyway.

Maybe say it's a multivitamin.
 
2014-05-20 12:50:40 PM
Magical thinking is very difficult to overcome
 
2014-05-20 01:09:24 PM
It's become an ingrained part of the identity of these insane parents.  Take away their anti-vaccination nutjobbery and they don't know who they are anymore.

I am almost to the point where I think letting public schools ban unvaccinated children from attending might be a workable solution.
 
2014-05-20 01:13:28 PM
Just make organic vaccines that treat gluten intolerance and this trend would clear right up.
 
2014-05-20 01:20:37 PM

SphericalTime: It's become an ingrained part of the identity of these insane parents.  Take away their anti-vaccination nutjobbery and they don't know who they are anymore.

I am almost to the point where I think letting public schools ban unvaccinated children from attending might be a workable solution.


They'll just claim religious privilage to get around that
 
2014-05-20 01:21:23 PM
Blaming the vaccine assuages their guilt for having produced an imperfect child. Ameliorate the guilt and they'll be more receptive.

No idea how to do that.
 
2014-05-20 01:27:09 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Blaming the vaccine assuages their guilt for having produced an imperfect child. Ameliorate the guilt and they'll be more receptive.

No idea how to do that.


Society would be considerably less messed up if we removed the stigma associated with mental health problems.
 
2014-05-20 01:28:14 PM
safety from disease and hopefully eventual eradication of disease: good.

having the CIA collect DNA samples when they give vaccinations in order to subvert what it means to be human and build a clone army of supersoldiers: bad.

it's kind of a toss-up.
 
2014-05-20 01:28:32 PM
I find it very disturbing that the apparent solution to this problem is to trick people who choose to be wrong into feeling better about being right because they apparently can't be swayed by the facts alone... it really reinforces my perception that humans, as a whole, are actually a rather stupid species and we survive and thrive mostly because of our ability to selfishly accept the massive benefits bestowed on us by the occasional genius who comes along to boot our dumb asses into the next stage of social and scientific evolution.
 
2014-05-20 01:30:05 PM

Smeggy Smurf: SphericalTime: It's become an ingrained part of the identity of these insane parents.  Take away their anti-vaccination nutjobbery and they don't know who they are anymore.

I am almost to the point where I think letting public schools ban unvaccinated children from attending might be a workable solution.

They'll just claim religious privilage to get around that


Implement vouchers, and charter schools can set their own rules regarding vaccinations.  People who want their kids to be vaccinated can send their kids to schools that only allow kids who have had all their shots.  Since the charter schools are not technically a government organization, they don't have to grant any sort of religious exemptions.
 
2014-05-20 01:30:42 PM
Good study and decent write-ups.

It could just as easily been interpreted as an extension of Confirmation Bias.
 
2014-05-20 01:31:30 PM

SphericalTime: It's become an ingrained part of the identity of these insane parents.  Take away their anti-vaccination nutjobbery and they don't know who they are anymore.

I am almost to the point where I think letting public schools ban unvaccinated children from attending might be a workable solution.


Except that it tends to be wealthy parents who don't get their kids vaccinated, and they're kids are probably going to private school.

I hate to say it, but probably the only solution is to hire celebrity parents to do a PR campaign about how much they love vaccines.
 
2014-05-20 01:32:31 PM

skozlaw: I find it very disturbing that the apparent solution to this problem is to trick people who choose to be wrong into feeling better about being right because they apparently can't be swayed by the facts alone... it really reinforces my perception that humans, as a whole, are actually a rather stupid species and we survive and thrive mostly because of our ability to selfishly accept the massive benefits bestowed on us by the occasional genius who comes along to boot our dumb asses into the next stage of social and scientific evolution.


Most people typically come to this conclusion after the voters elect Republicans.
 
2014-05-20 01:37:10 PM
Don't be such a Negative Nancy, it's nothing a little resurgence of Polio and Smallpox can't fix.
 
2014-05-20 01:37:46 PM
It's difficult to reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into in the first place.

/Don't recall who said it first
 
2014-05-20 01:41:28 PM

elysive: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Blaming the vaccine assuages their guilt for having produced an imperfect child. Ameliorate the guilt and they'll be more receptive.

No idea how to do that.

Society would be considerably less messed up if we removed the stigma associated with mental health problems.


True, as long as we also implement public shaming and huge penalties for doctors and psychologists who falsely diagnose or recommend treatment for those who don't need it, in order to make a few bucks.  How we prove that, though, with mental issues, is the problem of course.
 
2014-05-20 01:51:11 PM

houginator: Smeggy Smurf: SphericalTime: It's become an ingrained part of the identity of these insane parents.  Take away their anti-vaccination nutjobbery and they don't know who they are anymore.

I am almost to the point where I think letting public schools ban unvaccinated children from attending might be a workable solution.

They'll just claim religious privilage to get around that

Implement vouchers, and charter schools can set their own rules regarding vaccinations.  People who want their kids to be vaccinated can send their kids to schools that only allow kids who have had all their shots.  Since the charter schools are not technically a government organization, they don't have to grant any sort of religious exemptions.


I'd rather just hose down the schools with polio and measles at the start of the school year.
 
2014-05-20 01:53:42 PM
Antivaccinationism is a Religion.
 
2014-05-20 01:54:16 PM
THIS is what we're going to have to use the FEMA camps for.

And I'm OK with that.

scottydoesntknow: hb0mb: You can't fix stupid.

I was gonna say we need a vaccine against stupidity, but they wouldn't take it anyway.

Maybe say it's a GLUTEN-FREE multivitamin.


FTFY
 
2014-05-20 01:55:26 PM
It's not really a goal to change beliefs that will work, so much as marginalization measures such that the vast majority of "undecided" people view the "wrong" beliefs as crackpot and unworthy of serious consideration.

You may always have a small minority of anti-vaxxers, but at least their ranks don't grow quickly if society in general portrays them as morons in general.
 
2014-05-20 02:10:50 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: elysive: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Blaming the vaccine assuages their guilt for having produced an imperfect child. Ameliorate the guilt and they'll be more receptive.

No idea how to do that.

Society would be considerably less messed up if we removed the stigma associated with mental health problems.

True, as long as we also implement public shaming and huge penalties for doctors and psychologists who falsely diagnose or recommend treatment for those who don't need it, in order to make a few bucks.  How we prove that, though, with mental issues, is the problem of course.


Well, having a mental illness should neither be something wonderful and special that one (or one's parent) aspires to, nor a cause for humiliation. If everyone felt entitled to talk therapy and counseling (you don't need to be mentally ill to see a therapist, but then there's the stigma of treatment), I think the urge for Munchausen's and over-treatment might be greatly reduced. I think the problem that is more difficult is monitoring prescriptions of addictive or performance enhancing drugs like stimulants (which can induce significant and irreversible mental health problems in otherwise healthy people...would people rush to use ritalin for studying if they knew it could induce mania or psychosis?). At some point in the future, I would like to think there will at least be some concrete diagnostic test to confirm diagnosis of ADD/ADHD.


Unfortunately we have a society that is moving towards recreational drug use as healthy and normal. I would like to see drug use decriminalised, but I don't see the point of being pro- drug use. Why are people proud of using crutches in order to study/sleep/recreate/mate etc? If our culture took a more conservative approach to pharmaceuticals, perhaps we wouldn't have a crisis going on with the efficacy of our antibiotics right now.

/I know, I know, wishes go in one hand...
 
2014-05-20 02:15:42 PM

hb0mb: You can't fix stupid.


The problem isn't that people are stupid, it's that when they are totally convinced of one thing convincing them that it's false is extremely difficult. This is actually a useful survival trait - if what you were thinking previously has worked well up till this point ("Red berries are poisonous! I shouldn't eat them!"), then, even if there's a lot of evidence it is false ("But Ugg eats red berries all the time!"), changing it might not be worth the potential risk. Our brains are fundamentally conservative when it comes to information we're sure we're correct about, because they haven't evolved to seek truth but to keep you alive and increase the odds you'll successfuly procreate.

skozlaw: it really reinforces my perception that humans, as a whole, are actually a rather stupid species


Compared to what, exactly?
 
2014-05-20 02:24:19 PM

skozlaw: I find it very disturbing that the apparent solution to this problem is to trick people who choose to be wrong into feeling better about being right because they apparently can't be swayed by the facts alone... it really reinforces my perception that humans, as a whole, are actually a rather stupid species and we survive and thrive mostly because of our ability to selfishly accept the massive benefits bestowed on us by the occasional genius who comes along to boot our dumb asses into the next stage of social and scientific evolution.


CSB: I was talking about this recently with my wife.  On the two occasions, we've had to deal with our police department when someone committed an infraction against us.  1) In the first case, our debit card was compromised.  The police department had a video still of someone using the card, a hispanic man.  They also had a video still of the hispanic man entering the store.  There also happened to be a white non-hispanic elderly woman entering the store at the same time as the man.  The detective said he though the "ringleader" was the white woman, since the receipt was signed "Angela."  I asked to see the copy of the receipt.  It was signed "Angel A."  I had to explain to the detective that "Angel" was a not uncommon hispanic male name.  He seemed very surpised by this and told me "Well, we're not going to catch him anyway." 2) In the second case, a tractor trailer crashed into a retaining wall on our property, causing thousands of dollars of damage to our property.  I did not see it happen, but my neighbor did.  We called the police, and told the police where the driver was going.  I got into my car and caught-up with the dude and arrested him.  I called the police and reported that I had arrested him.  They came right away.  They thanked me, saying they had been looking in the geographically opposite side of town from where we told the police the driver was headed.

Long story longer.... people are gulliable and stupid, and if we ever wanted to become criminals, we could make a lot of money and get away with it.
+++end CSB
 
2014-05-20 02:26:32 PM

elysive: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Blaming the vaccine assuages their guilt for having produced an imperfect child. Ameliorate the guilt and they'll be more receptive.

No idea how to do that.

Society would be considerably less messed up if we removed the stigma associated with mental health problems.


While that is a true statement, there is a lot more to not wanting your child to be autistic than social stigma.
 
2014-05-20 02:27:22 PM

Gunther: Compared to what, exactly?


Compared to our perception of ourselves.
 
2014-05-20 02:28:57 PM

elysive: Just make organic vaccines that treat gluten intolerance and this trend would clear right up.


Your comment reminded me of an article someone posted on facebook yesterday with a recipe for "No Oats Oatmeal", so meal I guess?  Anywho, the first critique of oatmeal is this
"Oatmeal is a avenin protein from the prolamine family, which also includes gluten from wheat, rye, barley, and zein, from corn. Avenin causes the same problems as gluten."
 
2014-05-20 02:33:45 PM

houginator: Smeggy Smurf: SphericalTime: It's become an ingrained part of the identity of these insane parents.  Take away their anti-vaccination nutjobbery and they don't know who they are anymore.

I am almost to the point where I think letting public schools ban unvaccinated children from attending might be a workable solution.

They'll just claim religious privilage to get around that

Implement vouchers, and charter schools can set their own rules regarding vaccinations.  People who want their kids to be vaccinated can send their kids to schools that only allow kids who have had all their shots.  Since the charter schools are not technically a government organization, they don't have to grant any sort of religious exemptions.


This is one of the reasons I am happy to contribute to both of my nieces' private school tuition. Don't want to vaccinate your kids? Go be dumb at a different school. Vaccinations FTW.
 
2014-05-20 02:33:52 PM
I finally had to tell off one of my relatives on FB for using any excuse to spread his anti-vax bullshiat on my wall after asking him repeatedly not to. I basically said "You need to take a step back and ask yourself if being right about this is more important than the relationships you have because you're being really disrespectful and I've about had it with you." We'll see how well it works. It sucks because away from Facebook he's an awesome guy, funny, caring, laid back... On FB though, he's a bit of a pushy tiresome dick. He's a one note song, this topic is pretty much all he posts about.

I think society needs to be less permissive towards these people. They've gotten this far because they mistook or polite indifference to mean acceptance. Now people are dying from outbreaks of preventable diseases. Enough is enough.
 
2014-05-20 02:34:30 PM

hb0mb: You can't fix stupid.


If you could, at least stupid wouldn't breed so prolifically.
 
2014-05-20 02:36:43 PM

jaytkay: houginator: Smeggy Smurf: SphericalTime: It's become an ingrained part of the identity of these insane parents.  Take away their anti-vaccination nutjobbery and they don't know who they are anymore.

I am almost to the point where I think letting public schools ban unvaccinated children from attending might be a workable solution.

They'll just claim religious privilage to get around that

Implement vouchers, and charter schools can set their own rules regarding vaccinations.  People who want their kids to be vaccinated can send their kids to schools that only allow kids who have had all their shots.  Since the charter schools are not technically a government organization, they don't have to grant any sort of religious exemptions.

I'd rather just hose down the schools with polio and measles at the start of the school year.


I'd like to subscribe to your magazine.
 
2014-05-20 02:40:24 PM
Freaky timing as I'm taking my 6 month old son to the doctor's office tomorrow for his check-up and vaccinations.
 
2014-05-20 02:59:25 PM
There's one way to change the anti-vax perception - hit them in the wallet.  Oh, your kid has this disease you could have prevented with a simple shot and you need treatment? Sorry, insurance claim denied.  You pay out of pocket.
 
2014-05-20 03:02:38 PM

hb0mb: You can't fix stupid.


Hah! If that were true, no one would ever try to argue on the Politics tab.
 
2014-05-20 03:08:22 PM

OdradekRex: There's one way to change the anti-vax perception - hit them in the wallet.  Oh, your kid has this disease you could have prevented with a simple shot and you need treatment? Sorry, insurance claim denied.  You pay out of pocket.


Go one step further and deny any and all medical treatment for preventable diseases that have a vaccine available.  Then make them pay out of pocket for the funeral for the kid.
 
2014-05-20 03:18:35 PM

hstein3: It's difficult to reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into in the first place.

/Don't recall who said it first


Anti-vaxxers, like Creationists and anti-GM foodies, hold an emotional belief that is not able to be reasoned away.

When confronted with facts which contradict their beliefs, the data  literally does not get as far as the reasoning part of their brain.

Not because they are insane or stupid - calling them that may make you feel better but doesn't advance your cause - but because that's how our brains work

Won't convert anyone overnight, but can try Nudge tactics.to shift attitudes

OdradekRex: There's one way to change the anti-vax perception - hit them in the wallet.  Oh, your kid has this disease you could have prevented with a simple shot and you need treatment? Sorry, insurance claim denied.  You pay out of pocket.


Making them pay, or at least realize that they may be sued, will at least force them to rethink.

The thing that has forced reconsideration of the tough sentencing laws of last couple of decades is the realization that it is a huge tax cost
 
2014-05-20 03:20:32 PM

Smeggy Smurf: OdradekRex: There's one way to change the anti-vax perception - hit them in the wallet.  Oh, your kid has this disease you could have prevented with a simple shot and you need treatment? Sorry, insurance claim denied.  You pay out of pocket.

Go one step further and deny any and all medical treatment for preventable diseases that have a vaccine available.  Then make them pay out of pocket for the funeral for the kid.


Go further.  No medical insurance without immunizations, period.  Also, no hospital care without immunization record.
 
2014-05-20 03:21:02 PM

xalres: I finally had to tell off one of my relatives on FB for using any excuse to spread his anti-vax bullshiat on my wall after asking him repeatedly not to. I basically said "You need to take a step back and ask yourself if being right about this is more important than the relationships you have because you're being really disrespectful and I've about had it with you." We'll see how well it works. It sucks because away from Facebook he's an awesome guy, funny, caring, laid back... On FB though, he's a bit of a pushy tiresome dick. He's a one note song, this topic is pretty much all he posts about.

I think society needs to be less permissive towards these people. They've gotten this far because they mistook or polite indifference to mean acceptance. Now people are dying from outbreaks of preventable diseases. Enough is enough.


Don't back off.  Antivaxxers have blood on their hands, and should be reminded of that at every opportunity.
 
2014-05-20 03:21:13 PM
It isn't just anti-vaxers. In the more general case, it has been shown that people with irrational beliefs are not swayed by rational argument but, in fact, become more entrenched in their beliefs. Vaccines, breakfast cereals, favorite Star Trek captains... it doesn't matter what the subject is.
 
2014-05-20 03:24:37 PM
Any kid that dies from a vaccinable disease is dying a preventable death. Also, complicity in murder and child abuse. America locks world+dog anyway already, and these assholes belong in the joint way more than some unlucky cokehead.
 
2014-05-20 03:26:28 PM
Attitudes towards vaccination will only begin to get better once measles, mumps, rubella, typhoid fever, and polio are once again common conditions in which literally EVERYONE has had their own family tragedy.  Stupid people are going to cost millions of lives before this is over.
 
2014-05-20 03:41:45 PM
It's ridiculous that parents beliefs are even a factor in childhood vaccinations. Vaccinations should be mandatory unless there's a compelling medical reason not to (allergy, immunocompromised).
 
2014-05-20 03:52:26 PM

Lexx: Smeggy Smurf: OdradekRex: There's one way to change the anti-vax perception - hit them in the wallet.  Oh, your kid has this disease you could have prevented with a simple shot and you need treatment? Sorry, insurance claim denied.  You pay out of pocket.

Go one step further and deny any and all medical treatment for preventable diseases that have a vaccine available.  Then make them pay out of pocket for the funeral for the kid.

Go further.  No medical insurance without immunizations, period.  Also, no hospital care without immunization record.


I like it.  Now as long as it's not mandated by the government and is a 100% voluntary program that all hospitals and clinics agree upon it's good.  Back that up by Big Pharma not selling anything to non-participating facilities and the problem will quickly solve itself.
 
2014-05-20 04:03:36 PM
The problem is that we have parents claiming that vaccinating their children is a violation of their beliefs, but we also need to maintain the herd immunity against certain serious viruses.

So, we give parents two choices.  Either we inject your child with the vaccine, or we inject them with the disease.  If they survive the disease, they'll have immunity and won't be a risk to the rest of us.
 
2014-05-20 04:15:33 PM

Metastatic Capricorn: It isn't just anti-vaxers. In the more general case, it has been shown that people with irrational beliefs are not swayed by rational argument but, in fact, become more entrenched in their beliefs. Vaccines, breakfast cereals, favorite Star Trek captains... it doesn't matter what the subject is.


If that were 100% true, then we (as a species) would be just as irrational generation after generation, with no hope for improvement.

I don't believe that's the case. Don't believe me? Ask your grandparents to remember what it was like when they were children (sometime when you have an afternoon to kill). How did people feel about miscegenation, or women in the workplace, or homosexuals period?

It takes time, but fundamental, irrational beliefs can change over time. Rational arguments are a part of the process (if they weren't, then the trend would be random).
 
2014-05-20 04:19:16 PM

JesusJuice: It's ridiculous that parents beliefs are even a factor in childhood vaccinations. Vaccinations should be mandatory unless there's a compelling medical reason not to (allergy, immunocompromised).


Over the past couple of decades, we've tended to be a bit cautious about mandating medical treatment to individuals for the good of society. That sort of thing has a shady history.
 
2014-05-20 04:20:23 PM

draypresct: Metastatic Capricorn: It isn't just anti-vaxers. In the more general case, it has been shown that people with irrational beliefs are not swayed by rational argument but, in fact, become more entrenched in their beliefs. Vaccines, breakfast cereals, favorite Star Trek captains... it doesn't matter what the subject is.

If that were 100% true, then we (as a species) would be just as irrational generation after generation, with no hope for improvement.

I don't believe that's the case. Don't believe me? Ask your grandparents to remember what it was like when they were children (sometime when you have an afternoon to kill). How did people feel about miscegenation, or women in the workplace, or homosexuals period?

It takes time, but fundamental, irrational beliefs can change over time. Rational arguments are a part of the process (if they weren't, then the trend would be random).


That's because you still have people that have not been swayed either way, or who do not have anything at stake when some beliefs are concerned.

In the case of anti-vaxxers, getting them to admit they are wrong is tantamount to admitting they farked up as a parent and put their child's health at grave risk.
 
2014-05-20 04:26:36 PM

draypresct: Metastatic Capricorn: It isn't just anti-vaxers. In the more general case, it has been shown that people with irrational beliefs are not swayed by rational argument but, in fact, become more entrenched in their beliefs. Vaccines, breakfast cereals, favorite Star Trek captains... it doesn't matter what the subject is.

If that were 100% true, then we (as a species) would be just as irrational generation after generation, with no hope for improvement.

I don't believe that's the case. Don't believe me? Ask your grandparents to remember what it was like when they were children (sometime when you have an afternoon to kill). How did people feel about miscegenation, or women in the workplace, or homosexuals period?

It takes time, but fundamental, irrational beliefs can change over time. Rational arguments are a part of the process (if they weren't, then the trend would be random).


Over time, sure.  Absolutely.  But, confrontation doesn't work.  Shaking someone's beliefs turns them into stronger advocates
 
2014-05-20 04:32:22 PM

scottydoesntknow: hb0mb: You can't fix stupid.

I was gonna say we need a vaccine against stupidity, but they wouldn't take it anyway.

Maybe say it's a multivitamin.


No, tell them it's one weird trick  they don't want you to know.
 
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