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(io9)   Everything you need to know about the Dungeons & Dragons relaunch. Then again, since you're reading this on Fark in the Geek section, this is probably really old news   (io9.com ) divider line 120
    More: Interesting, Dungeons & Dragons, Fark, Wizards of the Coast, Gen Con  
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3190 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 May 2014 at 9:45 AM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-20 08:55:39 AM  
That's cool.  I would love to have time to play again.  Getting all my friends in one place is difficult enough but spending 17 hours rolling characters whilst getting plastered would be impossible.  And it wouldn't be PnP D&D without making chip dip out of every condiment in the fridge and I don't know if my body can handle that...
 
2014-05-20 09:08:17 AM  
This must be the thread where I talk about Eclipse Phase and how much I dislike Shadowrun. Fun times!
 
2014-05-20 09:44:41 AM  
Everything you need to know about the D&D Relaunch

1 - Wizards of the Coast (and Hasbro) like money.

That's it.
 
2014-05-20 09:52:43 AM  
50 bucks for a book. I understand, but fark thats alot of gp to have to spend. Have to go around killing kobalds for a while to get that kind of scratch

/gp doesnt grow on trees
//but it does apparently grow inside of the monsters you kill
 
2014-05-20 09:54:31 AM  
Normal games fix things with expansions and add ons. Not just re-re-re-re-re-release the game over and over and over and over again.

I will admit, I haven't played since 2E, but that is only because the game seems to rely more on math than role playing.

I come from the generation of Legend of Zelda. F*ck encumbrance.
 
2014-05-20 09:57:27 AM  
www.agora-gallery.com
Ever.....last...drop.


If your not willing to play first edition then your probably not worth playing with.
 
2014-05-20 09:58:05 AM  
The success or failure of this rides on if they open it up like they did with 3E/d20.

It's interesting they're reaching out to a OGL third party publisher (Kobold Press) to write their initial adventures, I hope that's a good sign.

They're coming into this with an interesting direction - Pathfinder 'rules' the DND-like game scene, and there's a strong submarket in publishers reliving the original editions of the game by mangling the OGL/SRD.(here's where I plug Adventurer, Conqueror, King, a Basic/Expert clone with a real true economic system with baked-in name level domain management, and a mass battle system with Domains At War, and a custom class/spell creation engine in the Player's Companion.)

So they're actually competing, in a sense - D&D as a name has turned into the Kleenex/Bandaid of roleplaying games. They're coming in after a bit of an absence with something new, but they're not able to throw around the brand name as much as they could with the 3E launch.

Everybody's been playing D&D, already, with whatever they found and liked that came out of the OGL.

It'll be interesting.
 
2014-05-20 09:58:37 AM  
August 19 - Player's Handbook, $49.95.

November 19 - Dungeon Master's Guide, $49.95.

wait what
 
2014-05-20 10:00:22 AM  

kungfu jesus with a side of lime: 50 bucks for a book. I understand, but fark thats alot of gp to have to spend. Have to go around killing kobalds for a while to get that kind of scratch

/gp doesnt grow on trees
//but it does apparently grow inside of the monsters you kill


It doesn't grow on them. It's what they swallow when the mobs kill newbs that don't know how to handle the flaming sword of fire properly.
 
2014-05-20 10:03:19 AM  
...except "why I should care". My tabletop game group moved on to greener pastures years ago, and if we went back it would be Pathfinder rather than D&D. It's a fun nostalgia trip to crack open one of the old books now and again, but when it comes to playing it there are other things I'd rather do.
 
2014-05-20 10:04:18 AM  

Solty Dog: Normal games fix things with expansions and add ons. Not just re-re-re-re-re-release the game over and over and over and over again.

I will admit, I haven't played since 2E, but that is only because the game seems to rely more on math than role playing.

I come from the generation of Legend of Zelda. F*ck encumbrance.


'I am proud that I haven't played any version of this game since 1982, but let me tell you how it works and why it sucks'.

3.5 is a fine game. It's as mathy or not as you want. It got rid of a lot of the stupid fiddly bits that didn't work and streamlined the game a bit. It redesigned the rules significantly, and included several of the more normal/reasonable house rules almost everyone used. I recently started playing with a group. I had never played before.

I use a d20, and two d4 for the game. Roll to hit, add a modifier. That's not complex, or 'super math based' to me. But DnD IS more based on war simulation than other RPGs. If you want pure RP there are some games you can find.

Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad. Like WoW bad. I read some of the books and it made sense to me, to have redefined abilities and actual 'tank' mechanics, plus it gives fighters something to do besides 'I punch him' every round. And helps knock down the 'casters are gods by level 5, and fighters are useless after 12' issue.
 
2014-05-20 10:04:29 AM  

ManateeGag: Everything you need to know about the D&D Relaunch

1 - Wizards of the Coast (and Hasbro) like money.

That's it.


2 - Most gamers like unbalanced systems, and will cry fowl if you try to make a balanced one.
3 - Someone will claim it is just emulatying playing a videogame, just like the last 2 editions.
 
2014-05-20 10:04:47 AM  
Where are the Cheetos? I'm gonna get a Mountain Dew does anybody want one?
 
2014-05-20 10:05:32 AM  

sprawl15: August 19 - Player's Handbook, $49.95.

November 19 - Dungeon Master's Guide, $49.95.

wait what


Yeah. This may not be the best bit of scheduling.
 
2014-05-20 10:10:03 AM  

kroonermanblack: Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad.


It was. It sucked donkey-balls. It took the best features of 3.5, and then added a lot of overly complex crap to slow down game-play.
I'd rather go back to calculating THAC0 than play 4th edition.
 
2014-05-20 10:10:50 AM  

kroonermanblack: Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad. Like WoW bad. I read some of the books and it made sense to me, to have redefined abilities and actual 'tank' mechanics, plus it gives fighters something to do besides 'I punch him' every round. And helps knock down the 'casters are gods by level 5, and fighters are useless after 12' issue.


Most of those complaints were from people who either never tried/read the rules, or went in with a heavily biased opinion and did not give it a fair chance. Seriously almost all of the complaints about 4th Edition were disproven within like 3-6 months of its release, but they were still being repeated from the haters when the new edition was announced.
 
2014-05-20 10:15:26 AM  

sjmcc13: Most of those complaints were from people who either never tried/read the rules, or went in with a heavily biased opinion and did not give it a fair chance. Seriously almost all of the complaints about 4th Edition were disproven within like 3-6 months of its release, but they were still being repeated from the haters when the new edition was announced.


you mean player abilities were not entirely defined within context of a tile based combat system
 
2014-05-20 10:17:51 AM  

give me doughnuts: I'd rather go back to calculating THAC0 than play 4th edition.


This with bells on. Hell, you could even throw weapon speed and non-combat proficiencies back into the mix before I'd (briefly) consider playing 4E.
 
2014-05-20 10:19:36 AM  

kroonermanblack: Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad. Like WoW bad. I read some of the books and it made sense to me, to have redefined abilities and actual 'tank' mechanics, plus it gives fighters something to do besides 'I punch him' every round. And helps knock down the 'casters are gods by level 5, and fighters are useless after 12' issue.


As someone who has been playing since my older brothers taught me how to play 1st Ed AD&D in about 1981, 4e is by far my favorite version of D&D (In part because of both of the things you mentioned: Interesting Fighter options, and solving the 'Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard' issue.

Did 4e have some issues? Of course - no game is perfect. But I'll be happy to play it as long as I can, assuming that I can find other players.
 
2014-05-20 10:19:55 AM  
I was actually surprisingly pleased with the d20 upgrade. It covered fairly well with multiple genres--from Modern, Urban Arcana, Future--with some mild shout outs to the Star Frontiers--and even the Eberron setting. And I was prepared to hate it, but it worked. It dovetailed nicely with their Star Wars line, and it was a comprehensive system with enough examples for DMs to extrapolate new classes, new races, and goodies, without fear of going overpowered and goofy.

It was the comprehensive changes that D&D needed. Palladium games and the folks at White Wolf showed them the way, with systems that were linked, with ways to look at the eventual power creep for genres, but Wizards of the Coast finally tossed a lot of the confusing and contradictory rules systems that they'd been given with the original TSR product line.
 
2014-05-20 10:22:48 AM  
Having seen the beta-test materials, it looks to me like they may be releasing a very streamlined game, possibly oversimplified to a fault.

Core mechanic: in all tasks, you are either "proficient" or "not proficient". To make success tests, you roll d20 and add the appropriate stat modifier. If proficient, you also add your "proficiency bonus", which is a number based on level ranging from +2 at level 1 to +6 at level 20.

For the most part, other possible situational modifiers to the roll are replaced with the idea of rolling "with advantage" (rolling 2d20 and taking the higher one) or "with disadvantage" (rolling 2d20 and taking the lower).
 
2014-05-20 10:23:00 AM  
You know what? I still like the ancient and probably broken Red Box. My first RPG ever and it is a helluva nostalgia trip.

Well, that and Paranoia.
 
2014-05-20 10:29:01 AM  

Skyrmion: Having seen the beta-test materials, it looks to me like they may be releasing a very streamlined game, possibly oversimplified to a fault.


honestly, i kind of prefer simplified dice rolling systems as long as they allow a more complex approach to storytelling. when you boil everything down to a heavy rules driven environment, it incentivizes min/maxing behavior and the kind of cleverness that can punish that kind of behavior is only hindered
 
2014-05-20 10:32:55 AM  
media.chick.com

How much time should typical players be expected to play before being ready for the Real Power?

media.chick.com

media.chick.com


/Never understood why they did not just fix the abusable exploits of 3.5e instead of throwing out everything to try to create a pen-and-paper MMO.
 
2014-05-20 10:36:31 AM  
I read the fark geek section to find out what geeks are doing.

Not because I am one.

It's best to keep the weirdos in front you you, where you can see them.
 
2014-05-20 10:37:42 AM  

UberDave: That's cool.  I would love to have time to play again.  Getting all my friends in one place is difficult enough but spending 17 hours rolling characters whilst getting plastered would be impossible.  And it wouldn't be PnP D&D without making chip dip out of every condiment in the fridge and I don't know if my body can handle that...


That's why I suggest you use maptools and skype, don't have to leave the house to play D&D!

I've been playing with a group of farkers for about 1.5 years this way

/We are looking for more players for our Sunday night game
//No assholes need apply
 
2014-05-20 10:39:41 AM  

kungfu jesus with a side of lime: 50 bucks for a book.


50 bucks for each of THREE books.

/sigh
//my halfling thief rummages around in his purse
 
2014-05-20 10:40:58 AM  

sprawl15: Skyrmion: Having seen the beta-test materials, it looks to me like they may be releasing a very streamlined game, possibly oversimplified to a fault.

honestly, i kind of prefer simplified dice rolling systems as long as they allow a more complex approach to storytelling. when you boil everything down to a heavy rules driven environment, it incentivizes min/maxing behavior and the kind of cleverness that can punish that kind of behavior is only hindered



I think you've always been free to attempt a more complex approach to storytelling. Whether your players will notice or care is another matter.

Players may blunder through dialog with shocking ineptitude, forget the name of the country they are in, or get confused about which side they are on, but once it comes time to roll for initiative they all turn into Sun Tzu.
 
2014-05-20 10:41:16 AM  

sjmcc13: kroonermanblack: Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad. Like WoW bad. I read some of the books and it made sense to me, to have redefined abilities and actual 'tank' mechanics, plus it gives fighters something to do besides 'I punch him' every round. And helps knock down the 'casters are gods by level 5, and fighters are useless after 12' issue.

Most of those complaints were from people who either never tried/read the rules, or went in with a heavily biased opinion and did not give it a fair chance. Seriously almost all of the complaints about 4th Edition were disproven within like 3-6 months of its release, but they were still being repeated from the haters when the new edition was announced.


Too bad about Gamma World 4e, here they had a system that would have been perfect for a serious take on Gamma World and they go and fark it up AGAIN!
 
2014-05-20 10:42:20 AM  

semiotix: kungfu jesus with a side of lime: 50 bucks for a book.

50 bucks for each of THREE books.

/sigh
//my halfling thief rummages around in his purse


In his own purse?

He's doing it wrong.
 
2014-05-20 10:42:39 AM  
FTA:

you won't be calculating THAC0

wait, what?  where have I been all this time?  If no THAC0, then how to hit armor class 0!?!1?2

/ i guess it's been a long time.
 
2014-05-20 10:45:36 AM  
How about updating and re-releasing the old AD&D goldbox games for modern computers (maybe even consoles)?
 
2014-05-20 10:46:34 AM  
All I need to know is that it won't be as good as 2nd ed Dragonlance so I am not going to drop 150 bucks on it

/ has anyone played the dresden files rpg been looking at it for a while
 
2014-05-20 10:47:18 AM  
I foresee that my friends and I will spend just as much money on this as we did on 4th edition. Sorry, WoTC, but Paizo wins.
 
2014-05-20 10:48:21 AM  

Skyrmion: I think you've always been free to attempt a more complex approach to storytelling. Whether your players will notice or care is another matter.

Players may blunder through dialog with shocking ineptitude, forget the name of the country they are in, or get confused about which side they are on, but once it comes time to roll for initiative they all turn into Sun Tzu.


Most of the time, if you have players like that you probably hadn't planned a scene that would have the characters needing weapons in the first place, but they've managed to bungle the social aspects of the encounter so horribly it can and will only end in violence.
 
2014-05-20 10:49:01 AM  

orclover: If your not willing to play first edition then your probably not worth playing with.


Not true.  Paranoia 2nd Edition (the old one) was a vast improvement over 1st edition.
 
2014-05-20 10:50:41 AM  

kroonermanblack: Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad. Like WoW bad. I read some of the books and it made sense to me, to have redefined abilities and actual 'tank' mechanics, plus it gives fighters something to do besides 'I punch him' every round. And helps knock down the 'casters are gods by level 5, and fighters are useless after 12' issue.


D&D4 was basically a tactical miniatures game. You could role-play if you wanted, but combat was entirely geared toward moving around on a grid. It was good that they balanced out the classes so that mages weren't useless at low level (my group is doing Pathfinder right now, and it's become an issue), but IMO they went too far in the balance, it felt exactly the same no matter what class you were playing.
 
2014-05-20 10:53:37 AM  
Will I finally be able to attack the darkness?
 
2014-05-20 10:54:20 AM  

semiotix: kungfu jesus with a side of lime: 50 bucks for a book.

50 bucks for each of THREE books.

/sigh
//my halfling thief rummages around in his purse


Technically only GMs should need to shell out the money for all 3, but we all know that's not going to happen.
 
2014-05-20 10:55:33 AM  

The Bunyip: Will I finally be able to attack the darkness?


Only if I am allowed to take a Mountain Dew.
 
2014-05-20 10:57:55 AM  

The Bunyip: Will I finally be able to attack the darkness?


dicemonkey.net
 
2014-05-20 11:05:00 AM  
It's time for 5e.  WotC fell behind at 3.5 when Pathfinder took it and ran.  Then 4e came out.  Not a bad idea to have a rpg ready made for conversion to electronic gaming.  Not a bad system at all, but it didn't feel like DND to me (been playing since 1980).  What I've seen about 5e looks good, I'm already registered for three 5e events at GenCon so looking forward to that.

What I like is that folks will have even more choice in the edition they prefer.  Pathfinder carries the 3.5 banner and I'm sure there will be 4e holdouts.
 
2014-05-20 11:05:14 AM  

Skyrmion: I think you've always been free to attempt a more complex approach to storytelling. Whether your players will notice or care is another matter.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TancpHm4f4A
 
2014-05-20 11:07:53 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: kroonermanblack: Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad. Like WoW bad. I read some of the books and it made sense to me, to have redefined abilities and actual 'tank' mechanics, plus it gives fighters something to do besides 'I punch him' every round. And helps knock down the 'casters are gods by level 5, and fighters are useless after 12' issue.

D&D4 was basically a tactical miniatures game. You could role-play if you wanted, but combat was entirely geared toward moving around on a grid. It was good that they balanced out the classes so that mages weren't useless at low level (my group is doing Pathfinder right now, and it's become an issue), but IMO they went too far in the balance, it felt exactly the same no matter what class you were playing.


What hurt 4e for me was the first impression.  Went to Origins for the release and the DM treated it like a miniatures game.  No setup, no role-playing, just go from one combat to another.  4e does RPG just fine, still puzzled and disappointed about how they presented 4e.
 
2014-05-20 11:08:39 AM  

Skyrmion: In his own purse?

He's doing it wrong.


DEX 17, INT 5. Sort of like Criss Angel.
 
2014-05-20 11:10:58 AM  

Dimensio: How much time should typical players be expected to play before being ready for the Real Power?

/Never understood why they did not just fix the abusable exploits of 3.5e instead of throwing out everything to try to create a pen-and-paper MMO.


Money grab, pure and simple. Hasbro hated how the OGL let other people put out materials without giving them a cut and rewrote D&D specifically to break off that possibility. This happened, of course, months after publicly assuring the community that they were doing no such thing, and that they wouldn't be ditching these fine 3.5 products that you should rush out and buy today.

Fark them with the Swiss Army Polearm. I honestly don't care whether Next (not 5e because you can't trademark a number; see Pentium) is a great system (and in playtesting I was unimpressed); Hasbro views the RPG community as a bunch of chumps, and I'm done with them.
 
2014-05-20 11:11:45 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: D&D4 was basically a tactical miniatures game. You could role-play if you wanted, but combat was entirely geared toward moving around on a grid.


Every edition of D&D has been primarially a combat game, with the combat working best if you use some sort of visual representation, not just 4E. Though in no edition was this ever required. Combat has always been the majority of the games rules, and you could just kill things or role play as wel in EVERY edition. Yes they used a grid, because you HAVE to use something to formalize placement, and they used a simple one for 4E so it would take less time away from the actual parts people were playing for.

Tyrone Slothrop: but IMO they went too far in the balance, it felt exactly the same no matter what class you were playing.


You obviously never tried them, or have no idea what the differences are, even between the PHB1 classses I could see string similarties in their structure, but find obvious differences in how classes felt in play. But to amny "players" just went they all have powers, so they are the same and shut down thier brain at that point.
Also you can not go to far in balanceing a game, unless the point of the game is unbalanced.
 
2014-05-20 11:14:12 AM  

The Martian Manhandler: kroonermanblack: Now, DnD 4...I hear it was bad. Like WoW bad. I read some of the books and it made sense to me, to have redefined abilities and actual 'tank' mechanics, plus it gives fighters something to do besides 'I punch him' every round. And helps knock down the 'casters are gods by level 5, and fighters are useless after 12' issue.

As someone who has been playing since my older brothers taught me how to play 1st Ed AD&D in about 1981, 4e is by far my favorite version of D&D (In part because of both of the things you mentioned: Interesting Fighter options, and solving the 'Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard' issue.

Did 4e have some issues? Of course - no game is perfect. But I'll be happy to play it as long as I can, assuming that I can find other players.


Same here, 4e is my favorite too. I love that they got rid of that Vancian magic system and I didn't feel like a fragile doll playing a first level wizard. I could actually focusing on role-playing because the combat rules have been simplified!

I think getting rid of the vancian, sadly, is the root of a lot of the "doesn't feel like d&d to me", the magic system DID set it apart from video games. Despite it ruining flexibility for magic users and being a pain in the ass play-wise.

I also think some gamers loved D&D for all it's flaws because they nostalgically remembered whenever the flaws resulted in hilarity or them winning on a technicality, instead of all the frustration it caused them.
 
2014-05-20 11:16:46 AM  

All I read there was:

$150, kids! It'll cost you $150 to play a video game on paper!

Modules cost $30 each now!

You can start buying books in July, but you can't play until November!


The rules were reworked to facilitate automation, so that WoTC can make more money from the video game/MMO/CCG/PnP crossover possibilities. "Outsourcing?" Please. They pitched miniatures to WizKids because NECA makes collectibles - read "lucrative, exclusive licensing deal meant to screw miniatures companies" From the WizKids site: "...an all-new line of pre-painted miniatures for Dungeons & Dragons..." Painting your own miniatures just went out the window, because, let's face it, Hasbro can't make any money on lead. But HeroClix? Yeah, that's the ticket. In short:

Hasbro can kiss my ass.

 
2014-05-20 11:18:10 AM  

Tannhauser: It's time for 5e.  WotC fell behind at 3.5 when Pathfinder took it and ran.  Then 4e came out.  Not a bad idea to have a rpg ready made for conversion to electronic gaming.  Not a bad system at all, but it didn't feel like DND to me (been playing since 1980).  What I've seen about 5e looks good, I'm already registered for three 5e events at GenCon so looking forward to that.

What I like is that folks will have even more choice in the edition they prefer.  Pathfinder carries the 3.5 banner and I'm sure there will be 4e holdouts.


That was always my impression of 4e, after about 3 campaigns of it.  It was a good game on its own merits, but the system changes were so fundamental that it lost the D&D feel.  (That, and while the system rules themselves were easy to customize, tweaking or inventing classes to suit a homebrew setting was a royal pain in the arse compared to previous versions.)

I'm liking what I'm seeing from 5e so far; but I have to admit I'm cringing at the price point.  That's not going to help them get the game to a wide audience.
 
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