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(Short List)   Just how big is the Wall?   (shortlist.com ) divider line
    More: Cool, Game of Thrones, sizes  
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6818 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 May 2014 at 3:12 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-19 09:55:37 PM  

golden goat: Doc Batarang: I believe that the average travel speed on horse is 21 miles a day.

Uhh, a single person can walk at least that in a single day.  Probably to 30 miles leisurely, if you're in shape.  As long as you don't ride a horse to death, you could potentially go many multiples of that.


Glad I didn't have to be the one to point this out.
 
2014-05-19 10:01:09 PM  
imgod2u:

I thought I read some place that they weren't on a planet per se. How one can have an atmosphere with no planetary body is largely attributed to "magic". But I think it's implied that there's only Westeros and the eastern lands and nothing beyond that.

That may be what the characters believe, but I don;'t think there's any reason to think that's true for the world. In fact, the prophecies imply that Dany will be going around the world in order to get to Westeros ("Must go east to go west") and I think it's hinted that Euron has already circumnavigated the world.
 
2014-05-19 10:02:42 PM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: If it's anything like real history people without horses aren't traveling anywhere. I believe that the average travel speed on horse is 21 miles a day. So it takes 142 days to travel 3000 miles at a leisurely pace and a lot less with a dedicated relay system. Its a huge area but with a centrally located capitol and a lot of local authority that's not an unreasonable administrative area to govern.


Don't ever read David Eddings.  As I recall, he treated medieval long-distance land travel as being like popping out to the corner store for a pack of smokes.  farking hack.
 
2014-05-19 10:11:01 PM  

Mikey1969: Another theory is that it is fiction and there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief and in fantasy anything can happen.


No, even fantasy requires a little bit of believability. It's not as a high of a threshold as with good sci-fi, but just slinging a bunch of stuff onto the page and shouting "Fantasy!" is how you end up with Twilight.


What I love about this is that these details are not created by the author, but by the fans. It's cool that they take it so serious. I appreciate that passion in something they love but understand that George R.R. Martin probably didn't map out his solar system when creating his world. His world was created to carry the story of his characters and that is it.

The shape of the orbitalellipse is not a main plot point. The fact that there is non-predictable seasonal cycles is and adds to the mystery and the magic of the fantasy and set the tone of the story.

Whether it is art, fiction, or religion, it is the fans that make the canonical not the creators.

Personally I hate Twilight, but to say that they are against vampire canon is laughable, as there is no canon except what vampire fans have created.

The Song of Ice and Fire is the same way. The official website goes way deeper into character creation than Martin ever wanted to and in some cases it wagged the dog, in that Martin used some of the cartography created by fans in the books' illustrations as well as other story lines.

I guess what I'm saying is enjoy the hell out of it, but take it with wink, tounges, cheeks, and a grain of salt.

/Hard vs. Soft Sci-fi vs. Space opera's are the most  hilarious slap fights
//but less funny than art student interpretations of art and lit
///which is only topped by finding life meaning in pop songs (ok I'm guilty as my wedding vows were Depeche mode lyrics)
 
2014-05-19 10:15:09 PM  

Poot beer: To The Escape Zeppelin!: At 700' tall, 300 miles long, and an estimated average thickness of 120' I come up with .9 cubic miles of material in The Wall.


This is driving me crazy...when I do the calculation for the cubic volume of a regular prism--which is what the wall basically is--I get 25.2 million cubic miles.

Is it me? Am I thinking this wrong?


You did not convert ft to miles
 
2014-05-19 10:15:26 PM  

ctrlshiftspace: imgod2u:

I thought I read some place that they weren't on a planet per se. How one can have an atmosphere with no planetary body is largely attributed to "magic". But I think it's implied that there's only Westeros and the eastern lands and nothing beyond that.

That may be what the characters believe, but I don;'t think there's any reason to think that's true for the world. In fact, the prophecies imply that Dany will be going around the world in order to get to Westeros ("Must go east to go west") and I think it's hinted that Euron has already circumnavigated the world.


First off, she already has gone east to go west. That is why she is Mareen. She had to find her dragons (full grown), her army, and her resolve and strength. And yes Euron did sail across the world and back though I don't think Martin really cared to paint the world flat our spherical.
 
2014-05-19 10:28:56 PM  

All2morrowsparTs: Mikey1969: Another theory is that it is fiction and there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief and in fantasy anything can happen.


No, even fantasy requires a little bit of believability. It's not as a high of a threshold as with good sci-fi, but just slinging a bunch of stuff onto the page and shouting "Fantasy!" is how you end up with Twilight.

What I love about this is that these details are not created by the author, but by the fans. It's cool that they take it so serious. I appreciate that passion in something they love but understand that George R.R. Martin probably didn't map out his solar system when creating his world. His world was created to carry the story of his characters and that is it.

The shape of the orbitalellipse is not a main plot point. The fact that there is non-predictable seasonal cycles is and adds to the mystery and the magic of the fantasy and set the tone of the story.

Whether it is art, fiction, or religion, it is the fans that make the canonical not the creators.

Personally I hate Twilight, but to say that they are against vampire canon is laughable, as there is no canon except what vampire fans have created.

The Song of Ice and Fire is the same way. The official website goes way deeper into character creation than Martin ever wanted to and in some cases it wagged the dog, in that Martin used some of the cartography created by fans in the books' illustrations as well as other story lines.

I guess what I'm saying is enjoy the hell out of it, but take it with wink, tounges, cheeks, and a grain of salt.

/Hard vs. Soft Sci-fi vs. Space opera's are the most  hilarious slap fights
//but less funny than art student interpretations of art and lit
///which is only topped by finding life meaning in pop songs (ok I'm guilty as my wedding vows were Depeche mode lyrics)


It needs something to give it legs beyond 'just' the characters. Even if people(Who know these things) invent it from the outside as fans, if the author embraces it, it helps build backstory, and there's the chance that he will be able to take it in a new direction further down the road, using the ideas the fans with good knowledge helped create.

They don't have to use it to explain how the seasons work, but there could be other heavenly bodies(like the comet) that nobody has seen before because it's on just as bizarre of an orbit.

This is better fantasy then most of the shiat that says "Well, there's a planet, and these great people live on it, but it is pretty much a snooze fest on its own.'
 
2014-05-19 10:32:02 PM  

UNHbeta19: Poot beer: To The Escape Zeppelin!: At 700' tall, 300 miles long, and an estimated average thickness of 120' I come up with .9 cubic miles of material in The Wall.


This is driving me crazy...when I do the calculation for the cubic volume of a regular prism--which is what the wall basically is--I get 25.2 million cubic miles.

Is it me? Am I thinking this wrong?

You did not convert ft to miles


Ah ha! Sho nuff....did it again and got it right the second time.
 
2014-05-19 11:16:12 PM  

golden goat: Doc Batarang: I believe that the average travel speed on horse is 21 miles a day.

Uhh, a single person can walk at least that in a single day.  Probably to 30 miles leisurely, if you're in shape.  As long as you don't ride a horse to death, you could potentially go many multiples of that.



Horses need to eat, and that takes HOURS a day of the beastie is eating grass, less if you feed it grains.  All told, someone walking and someone riding end up covering roughly the same distance on really long trips.  The advantage of the horse is speedy portions of the trip if needed, and being able to carry a bunch of stuff along with you, instead of humping it on your back.

The California missions are set up about a day's travel apart, between 20 and 40 miles per section of El Camino Real, if you want to see a real-world example.
 
2014-05-19 11:58:04 PM  

PhDemented: golden goat: Uhh, a single person can walk at least that in a single day. Probably to 30 miles leisurely, if you're in shape. As long as you don't ride a horse to death, you could potentially go many multiples of that.

A horse and a man can travel about the same distance in a day.  A horse can spring faster, but needs a lot of breaks, where a man walking is more "slow and steady".  The advantage of a horse is that it can carry a heavier load that a man can.


That wasn't me who said that, it was the other guy.

I know ancient people travelled large distances regularly and it was a built in fact of life for tens of thousands of years. In another thread where someone trotted out the old adage about never moving a few miles from where they were born, I remarked that it isn't even normal for a statue of a person to stay within a few miles of where it was made.

Anyways, back to Westros: in a D&D supplement that came in Dragon magazine around 2000, I think I recall it saying that Westros has no moon or the moon is much smaller or more distant. Our moon is partially responsible for mitigating wild large fluctuations in tilt to the extent that without a moon, Earth would be uninhabitable. I also think that has been proven false recently, but it was the going theory back when these books started and could be the vein the author was mining.
 
2014-05-20 12:40:32 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Mikey1969: imgod2u: Doc Batarang: To The Escape Zeppelin!: onzmadi: is it just me or does that seem impossibly large for the size of westeros i mean mostly people just walked i mean only merchants and nobles have horses.
it would take forever to walk from one end to the other.

If it's anything like real history people without horses aren't traveling anywhere. I believe that the average travel speed on horse is 21 miles a day. So it takes 142 days to travel 3000 miles at a leisurely pace and a lot less with a dedicated relay system. Its a huge area but with a centrally located capitol and a lot of local authority that's not an unreasonable administrative area to govern.

In real history, people walked everywhere. It's a persistent myth that has no basis in reality, even in medieval Europe and Asia.

What I actually don't believe is that Westros has a population of 42 million. In the 10th century, the population of Earth was around 310 million and nearly every inhabitable place already had people there. It doesn't seem plausible that even a land area the size of the US could have about 14% of the total population, especially if the weather at northern latitudes is cyclically super screwy ("winter is coming"). There should have been a decrease in population during the last "winter" cycle, and I contend that the total global population of this planet should overall be smaller than Earth's at the same level of social complexity.

I thought I read some place that they weren't on a planet per se. How one can have an atmosphere with no planetary body is largely attributed to "magic". But I think it's implied that there's only Westeros and the eastern lands and nothing beyond that.

Wow, never heard that theory. I've heard that the planet was in a wildly eccentric orbit with more of an axial title than the Earth, which would account for the (seemingly) random seasons, but not one that they weren't on a planet.

The only one I have seen was speculation that they were inside ...

So, the entire series is a sequel?
i60.tinypic.com
/yes, horrible things happen to the characters
//even the kitties
///poor, poor kitties
 
2014-05-20 01:21:59 AM  

Mikey1969: All2morrowsparTs: Mikey1969: imgod2u: Doc Batarang: To The Escape Zeppelin!: onzmadi: is it just me or does that seem impossibly large for the size of westeros i mean mostly people just walked i mean only merchants and nobles have horses.
it would take forever to walk from one end to the other.

If it's anything like real history people without horses aren't traveling anywhere. I believe that the average travel speed on horse is 21 miles a day. So it takes 142 days to travel 3000 miles at a leisurely pace and a lot less with a dedicated relay system. Its a huge area but with a centrally located capitol and a lot of local authority that's not an unreasonable administrative area to govern.

In real history, people walked everywhere. It's a persistent myth that has no basis in reality, even in medieval Europe and Asia.

What I actually don't believe is that Westros has a population of 42 million. In the 10th century, the population of Earth was around 310 million and nearly every inhabitable place already had people there. It doesn't seem plausible that even a land area the size of the US could have about 14% of the total population, especially if the weather at northern latitudes is cyclically super screwy ("winter is coming"). There should have been a decrease in population during the last "winter" cycle, and I contend that the total global population of this planet should overall be smaller than Earth's at the same level of social complexity.

I thought I read some place that they weren't on a planet per se. How one can have an atmosphere with no planetary body is largely attributed to "magic". But I think it's implied that there's only Westeros and the eastern lands and nothing beyond that.

Wow, never heard that theory. I've heard that the planet was in a wildly eccentric orbit with more of an axial title than the Earth, which would account for the (seemingly) random seasons, but not one that they weren't on a planet.

Another theory is that it is fiction and there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief and in fantasy anything can happen.

No, even fantasy requires a little bit of believability. It's not as a high of a threshold as with good sci-fi, but just slinging a bunch of stuff onto the page and shouting "Fantasy!" is how you end up with Twilight.

Even if it's done after the fact, coming up with a decent explanation for where your people live is the difference between a great series and fluff.


It's an actual planet. There's at least one reference to circumnavigation in the books. I don't really have a good theory for the seasonal oddities, though. Maybe a combination of an eccentric orbit and axial wobble that creates some kind of long term periodicity that they haven't figured out.
 
2014-05-20 04:05:52 AM  

No Such Agency: Don't ever read David Eddings.  As I recall, he treated medieval long-distance land travel as being like popping out to the corner store for a pack of smokes.  farking hack.


It took them quite a long time to walk anywhere. I believe The Malloreon took place over a span of years for that reason. It just didn't seem like very long from a reader's perspective because Eddings skipped the parts where nothing interesting happened. If you don't do that, you end up with the aforementioned Rock Climbing.

Plus, to immortals like Belgarath and Polgara, a few years of walking around is basically popping out to the corner store for a pack of smokes.
 
2014-05-20 05:52:27 AM  
"Too farking big."
  - Dale Earnhardt.

/too soon?
 
2014-05-20 07:38:09 AM  

Corvus: Besides at 700' even shooting down would you be able to hit anything with bows at all?


From an actual archery perspective, yes.  If you were aiming at masses of troops, say, and not a particular individual.

Remember that 700 feet is only about 233 yards, which was roughly the far range of an English warbow, give or take.  So the arrow would certainly have a decent amount of kinetic energy, especially when you consider that instead of shooting *UP* to get that range, you're shooting *DOWN*, so mostly all you have to worry about is air resistance.

The other thing to consider is that the flight time for an arrow that averages, say 150 fps, is that it's going to take (700/150) = ~4.7 seconds.

If you're aiming at a particular individual from the top of the wall, and they are looking at you and see you release, they can easily dodge the shot.  A mass of people, on the other hand, can't just do that.
 
2014-05-20 07:50:38 AM  

mjjt: Do you think you can tell ?

[i62.tinypic.com image 500x281]


Did they get you to trade?
 
2014-05-20 09:44:18 AM  

Spaced Lion: No Such Agency: Don't ever read David Eddings.  As I recall, he treated medieval long-distance land travel as being like popping out to the corner store for a pack of smokes.  farking hack.

It took them quite a long time to walk anywhere. I believe The Malloreon took place over a span of years for that reason. It just didn't seem like very long from a reader's perspective because Eddings skipped the parts where nothing interesting happened. If you don't do that, you end up with the aforementioned Rock Climbing.

Plus, to immortals like Belgarath and Polgara, a few years of walking around is basically popping out to the corner store for a pack of smokes.


Yeah, the books were all basically walking from point to point over months. In the second series when they cross continents to get their baby, there are scenes showing the baby getting older, standing, etc.

When it was just the 'family' they could shape-shift into owls, wolves, etc and make up distance that way.
 
2014-05-21 12:48:45 AM  

The Larch: The wall is 8,000 years old, 300 miles long, and something like 700 feet tall. It was built of giant bricks of ice in one generation.

Its about 1.5 times as tall as the pyramid of Giza, and contains about 2,000 times more material. Its also about 25 times as tall as the Great Wall of Chia, and contains about 20 times more material than the Ming Dynasty section.

Compared to any human artifact, the wall is mindbogglingly huge and ancient.


Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to slow down Whitewalkers is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
 
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