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(Den Of Geek)   Why Return Of The Jedi deserves more love   (denofgeek.com) divider line 33
    More: Interesting, Jedi, Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars, Empire, Jedi deserves, Deathstars, space battle, Joseph Campbell  
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3818 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 19 May 2014 at 12:16 PM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-19 04:52:55 PM  
2 votes:

Mugato: ActionJoe: It also helped that everyone was a farking moron, especially the Jedi. Oh, the dark side is clouding their judgement....it does not take telepathic like sense to figure out someone high up was manipulating the events of the war

I think it was just unfathomable to the Jedi that someone could rise to Chancellor and also be a Sith Lord, someone that no one has ever had any experience with and whose very existence is pretty much a myth.

Then later when Yoda just gives up against Palpatine....when the fate of the galaxy is in the balance you don't just give up

Yoda obviously knew he couldn't win. He proved himself as not being one to rush into more combat if he knew he couldn't win. As for the senate floor, everyone was off skiing at their winter homes and banging interns like our own senate, there wasn't anyone there to see the fight.


My big bugaboo is "What would a Sith want with the Galaxy"? I mean, is there really any joy or pleasure in ruling over it all? Wouldn't the sheer bureaucracy of having to manage every little thing going on in the vast Cosmos become a major pain in the ass? I'd think even using force-lighting and force-choking the occasional incompetent underling would lose it's thrill after the first couple dozen.

After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.
--Spock


/Yes, I deliberately chose a Spock quote just as an extra nad-slap to the Star Wars fans
2014-05-19 03:06:05 PM  
2 votes:
Everything in the throne room between Vader, Luke and the Emperor was gold. When Luke finally loses it and succumbs to the Dark Side, going after Vader it was epic. That and Anakin's funeral pyre was simply great cinema.

Who gets paid to write all this shiat that was already covered in theforce.net.com forums like 15 years ago?
2014-05-19 02:43:03 PM  
2 votes:
It isn't a hard argument to make that ROTJ did deliver despite everyone's favourite forest teddies.  From the get-go Luke was finally showing some badassery after being shiat on by Yoda for most of the last film, Leia had stripped down to beach attire in perfect sync with audiences' exploding pubescence, Solo was finally fully on board with the Rebellion.  Plus more lightsabers.  Good times.
2014-05-19 01:23:56 PM  
2 votes:

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


They bugged out after seeing the command ship and the death star get wasted. Hell, I would too.
2014-05-19 09:23:16 PM  
1 votes:

Nix Nightbird: As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

[img1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x637]

They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

[basementrejects.com image 600x305]

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.


Great post.  Fundamentally if Ralph McQuarrie drew it, it is canon.  I understand the reasoning behind the idea of Ewoks as made for kids, but that doesn't mean they couldn't also be proficient warriors even with limited technology.  The habitat they are fighting also stacks the odds in their favor- they are well-camouflaged and able to sneak up so close to the Imperials that they can find the chinks in the armor before the Imps can take them out at range with blasterfire.

The Ewoks also use very smart small-unit guerrilla tactics.  They show up with an arrow salvo that is admittedly ineffective, and then basically run away/taunt the imps into following them.  The imps follow, but smartly only with stormtroopers, walkers, and speeders.  In all cases, the ewoks force the imps to pursue them into well-concealed ambushes and traps chosen on ground of their choosing, where their small size, excellent camouflage, and brute-force weapons (big rocks, logs) can be used to negate the technological advantage of the empire.  It's classic Sun Tzu.

At the same time, while their heavy infantry/armor is chasing the Ewoks, the imps forget about the rebel special forces at their rear, and their unarmoured and command forces are quickly wiped out.  Note that throughout the whole sequence you never see a dead rebel- these guys are hardcore infantry, well-trained and used to fighting outnumbered using the same style of guerrilla tactics the Ewoks employ.  Once Chewbacca gets in a walker and is able to also better balance the technological advantage of the empire, the game's over.

Granted, they got extremely lucky, but I don't think the idea is as far-fetched as people seem to think.  If the imperial helmets/walkers had IR gear they would have wiped the ewoks out pretty quickly, regardless of their tactics.  That said, there's no evidence they do have that ability- even the gunners in the walkers are aiming through open viewports rather than any kind of true digital aiming system.  The rebels, especially those trained by the imperial academies, like Han, would know all of those technological abilities going into the battle.
2014-05-19 09:22:51 PM  
1 votes:

Nix Nightbird: Technically, Vader flips a toggle switch. The door Maul opens is an electronic palm-pad, IIRC. So I guess the Dark Side isn't good at subtle electronic manipulations, or maybe Maul just didn't know that technique and it was easier to use brute force and slam something into it. Vader, on the other hand, was only dealing with a flip-toggle; Not especially hard to manipulate.


Either way I thought that move was really cool.  He doesn't look at it, he just does it.

//Does anyone else "force-open" automatic sliding doors?
2014-05-19 08:55:22 PM  
1 votes:
As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

img1.wikia.nocookie.net


They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

basementrejects.com

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.
2014-05-19 07:39:37 PM  
1 votes:

show me: I liked it best at the time, and it's still way up there. When Vader picks up the Emperor and throws him down the shaft it gave me goosebumps. It still does.


I like how Vader's mask briefly shows a skull after he throws the Emperor down the shaft.
2014-05-19 06:24:11 PM  
1 votes:

Cymbal: He had to construct his new lightsaber for one thing, and Yoda would have helped him with that.


He actually constructs the new lightsaber in Kenobi's old Tatooine dwelling (using tools there) and plants it in R2 before heading to Jabba's palace.  It was a scene in the novelization for Jedi.  I believe it was also filmed, but ended up being cut along with the sandstorm scene.  I always took it to mean that Kenobi was giving him "ghost pointers + tips" on how to make one.  Or maybe he had the instructions written down on the back of the his recipe for Stewed Bantha Loin.
2014-05-19 06:23:34 PM  
1 votes:

Cymbal: I think he most likely did go back for training with Yoda between ESB and ROTJ. He had to construct his new lightsaber for one thing, and Yoda would have helped him with that.


Luke built his new lightsaber in the ruins of Obi-Wans house prior to going to Jabba's palace.  It was actually filmed but never used, because it would take away the "holy shiat, is that a lightsaber in R2D2?" moment.  Minus the phantom kick that sequence is done really, really well from the salute on.

//Thing that always bothered me about the Rancor sequence is why did Luke have to use a rock?
2014-05-19 05:01:20 PM  
1 votes:

TV's Vinnie: My big bugaboo is "What would a Sith want with the Galaxy"? I


Well obviously the Sith have a serious grudge against the Jedi. The Jedi have effectively ruled the galaxy for a thousand years (the Chancellor really looks like a figurehead). So the question would be does Palatine want to destroy the Jedi as a means of taking over the galaxy or does he want to take over the galaxy so that he has the means to destroy the Jedi? Both are valid motives. We've seen a lot more puzzling motivations in our own world.
2014-05-19 04:20:38 PM  
1 votes:

verbaltoxin: bark_atda_moon: I thought the Imperial forces greatly outnumbered the Rebels. The only reason the Rebels survived was because the Emperor stupidly ordered the Star Destroyers not to fire while he was playing with his fully armed and operational toy. The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.

I think all six movies illustrate that Palpatine was a master manipulator, but utter sh*t at everything else. He had all the power but spoiled it because he was an egotistical asshole. Emperor he could become, but emperor he could not be.

Even at the end, when Darth's ready to turn babyface he couldn't help himself. Palpatine tried to convince Luke to kill Vader and become his apprentice wih Vader standing right there.

So it makes sense that he'd pick crappy officers and raise an army that looked intimidating, but was corrupt and inept as all get-out. The empire had one thing going: size. It was massive and pervasive. But the whole galaxy knew how to skirt around Palpatine's authority, and many characters were proud to ignore it (Especially gangsters and smugglers).


It also helped that everyone was a farking moron, especially the Jedi. Oh, the dark side is clouding their judgement....it does not take telepathic like sense to figure out someone high up was manipulating the events of the war. Even up until the end everything could have changed but Mace Windu went from usually very intelligent and patient to pants on head retard. Hmm, you hear that the emperor is the sith lord, well....I better only bring two other Jedi and not tell anyone else about it. Oh and let me bring the two worst lightsaber wielding Jedi in the entire galaxy.

Then later when Yoda just gives up against Palpatine....when the fate of the galaxy is in the balance you don't just give up. How nobody could have noticed a huge fight taking place in the center of the Senate makes no god damn sense either. Or hey, you know, turn on a camera during the fight. Boom, Palpatine is immediately outed as the sith lord.
2014-05-19 04:10:11 PM  
1 votes:

Bith Set Me Up: MugzyBrown: Nana's Vibrator: Goddamned Jedi Luke Skywalker has to throw a rock at a switch to kill the Rancor, but not until after he manually puts a bone in its mouth to keep it from biting down on him.
And he has to manually fight everyone on Jabba's 2 transports instead of using the force to shove them off and into Sarlacc.

Per my recollection, Lucas really amp'd up the force powers in Eps 1-3 than was shown all through the originally series.

It makes sense if you assume Obi-Wan and Yoda taught Luke the bare essentials.


In the PM Obi-Wan had 10 to 15 years training and experiance under his belt, Qui-Gon 20 to 30 years. By the time of RotJ Luke had less than a year with Yoda.

So yeh a twenty year veteran Jedi could of just walked into Jaba's palace and killed everyone if needed. Luke had to use his brains a lot more.
2014-05-19 03:50:38 PM  
1 votes:

show me: I liked it best at the time, and it's still way up there. When Vader picks up the Emperor and throws him down the shaft it gave me goosebumps. It still does.


I especially like that he did it without saying or yelling anything.
2014-05-19 03:00:10 PM  
1 votes:

extroverted_suicide: Vader was completely f'ing with him. He was fighting him one handed most of the time. He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.


Absolutely.  Think of an adult playing 1-1 with a youngish kid.  If they just destroy them it's not fun for the kid and they'll quit.
2014-05-19 02:59:26 PM  
1 votes:
I hate the fact they removed the 'old' Anakin from the end sequence of ROTJ and replaced him with pointless young Anakin. It completely felt like a father's sacrifice was wasted at that moment, and fark the 'that was who he was before he turned to the darkside' bullshiat excuse.
2014-05-19 02:56:36 PM  
1 votes:

MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

And the A New Hope dual is distractingly awful.  Other than that, I love everything about those movies.


Vader was completely f'ing with him.  He was fighting him one handed most of the time.  He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.
2014-05-19 02:55:25 PM  
1 votes:
Jabba's Palace segment was pretty good, although it went on a bit longer than necessary.  The Ewoks were a disgrace, but in between all that was some really good stuff going on.  You've got Lando redeeming himself for being a douchey sellout in ESB, Leia going into the belly of the beast to save the man she loves, Luke truly having to stand on his own after the death of Yoda, and the whole redemption of Vader and downfall of the Emperor couldn't have been any better.  This was the perfect ending to the real trilogy.
2014-05-19 02:47:08 PM  
1 votes:

DubyaHater: I have never heard of "Return of the Jedi". I had to click on the link. I don't watch movies (or TV in general) so I couldn't give an opinion anyway. After reading that article, seems like I'm not missing much.


Thanks for the awesome contribution to this thread.
2014-05-19 02:11:12 PM  
1 votes:

bark_atda_moon: Jim_Callahan: The entire 'trap' hinged on the fact that, had the DS not been working, the imperial forces would be massively outnumbered and outgunned.  This was why they risked the attack in the first place.

Once the station was destroyed... the imperials were just massively outnumbered and outgunned, without the 'trap' aspect.  Withdrawing from that territory was the right call.

// Albeit it was never quite clear how long hyperspace trips actually took in the movies.  I'd always assumed they were equivalent to trans-oceanic voyages, taking something like months in out-of-hyperspace time, given the whole port/hub organization of shipping and so on.  So they couldn't just hot-drop more of their forces on there in the apparent seconds seen by the people in the warping ship.

I thought the Imperial forces greatly outnumbered the Rebels.  The only reason the Rebels survived was because the Emperor stupidly ordered the Star Destroyers not to fire while he was playing with his fully armed and operational toy.  The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.


I liked Zahn's explanation for this.  His idea was that the Emperor used the Force to directly influence the ability of his forces to work together effectively.  With the Emperor dead, the fleet fell into disorganization and couldn't mount an effective counterattack against the Rebels.
2014-05-19 02:04:55 PM  
1 votes:

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?



I remember a theory put forward in one of the Zahn novels that I liked was that the Emperor was able to use the Force to control the Empire at a granular level from the second Death Star. Not so much that he was controlling the movements and actions of the Imperial Officers and troops involved but more along the lines that he was using the Force to coordinate his forces and control their focus.

The brilliant part of this theory is that the second Death Star battle / Battle of Endor is all going the Empire's Way until Luke goes off-script and the Emperor's focus shifts from the exterior battle to 100% on Luke and Vader. That's the point where Han tricks the bunker commander, the Rebels blow-up the shield generator and the remaining Rebel ships are able to attack the Death Star.

I know, lots of people don't want to hear about any clap-trap from the Expanded Universe and I tired of most of it pretty quickly too. I just like this theory as it adds some depth and a darker tone to the ROTJ plot.
2014-05-19 01:52:25 PM  
1 votes:

bark_atda_moon: Imagine if the Americans retreated during the Battle of Midway after the Yorktown was sunk.


That would have been hard to do.  What with the battle having already ended by the time the Yorktown gave up and sank.
2014-05-19 01:25:16 PM  
1 votes:

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


I always wondered this too, but figured with the Death Star gone and the Emperor dead, what was left of the Empire fleet was so demoralized they most likely beat a hasty retreat.
2014-05-19 01:02:26 PM  
1 votes:
I think everyone agrees that it has its problems but is still a really fun movie. It's the least of the original trilogy but only slightly; a 9/10 following two 10/10s. It sure as hell looks better now it's been followed by two 3/10s and one 5/10.

And to answer TFAs "people aren't looking forward to the next one!", that's because JJ Abrams makes fun popcorn movies with no heart or depth. Episode VII will be technically well made and well paced and we'll be entertained for 2 hours... But we won't remember what happened in it the next day.
2014-05-19 01:01:57 PM  
1 votes:

flynn80: Nabb1: Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.

And that is how we ended up with Jar-Jar



Jar-jar made the Ewoks look like...farking Shaft
2014-05-19 12:48:53 PM  
1 votes:
It has the best space battles by far, but the Ewoks are the least of its problems.  The Jabba section runs way too long for what it accomplishes, Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" speech is a cop-out, and Leia-as-sister was a bullshiat way to defuse that love triangle the series had going.

I don't think it's a bad film on the whole, but it does have a lot of missed dramatic potential.
2014-05-19 12:36:44 PM  
1 votes:

TV's Vinnie: And firing at the exhaust port from a  horizontal level when the damn hole could have been approached from a straight-down firing angle?


I always figured the trench run was to avoid heavy turret fire. Approaching straight down leaves a nice easy spot to fire from below.
2014-05-19 12:30:52 PM  
1 votes:
In Empire, when Leia tells Han she loves him, his response before being turned into a carbonite popsicle is pretty badass. When they swap lines in Jedi, it's goddamned amazing.

I unabashedly love the movie, Ewoks and all.
2014-05-19 12:27:18 PM  
1 votes:
Return of the Jedi is a great example of a fun movie that could have been SOOOOOO much better.  Wookies instead of Ewoks and we're done.

Or maybe explain to me why the Rebellion allowed some of their most valuable agents to all commit to such an awful plan to rescue Han rather than, I don't know, sparing a few soldiers?
2014-05-19 12:25:16 PM  
1 votes:
By far the best space battle in the original trilogy. When I finally got my hands on X-Wing and TIE Fighter, the second Death Star was the battle I most wanted to simulate. That was the one that made it really feel like space dog fighting, instead of pseudo-Earth dog fighting. Full speed, any angle, evasive maneuvers in any direction.
2014-05-19 12:24:55 PM  
1 votes:
Has the best space battles scenes of all the others combined.
2014-05-19 12:03:37 PM  
1 votes:
Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.
2014-05-19 11:54:45 AM  
1 votes:
The "I am a Jedi ... *headnod* .. like my father before me" scene is the best scene in any Star Wars film, all three of them.
 
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