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(Den Of Geek)   Why Return Of The Jedi deserves more love   ( denofgeek.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Jedi, Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars, Empire, Jedi deserves, Deathstars, space battle, Joseph Campbell  
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3847 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 19 May 2014 at 12:16 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-19 06:25:48 PM  

frestcrallen: He actually constructs the new lightsaber in Kenobi's old Tatooine dwelling (using tools there) and plants it in R2 before heading to Jabba's palace. It was a scene in the novelization for Jedi. I believe it was also filmed, but ended up being cut along with the sandstorm scene. I always took it to mean that Kenobi was giving him "ghost pointers + tips" on how to make one. Or maybe he had the instructions written down on the back of the his recipe for Stewed Bantha Loin.


I usually am the one beaten to the post while typing it.  This time I win!
 
2014-05-19 06:48:04 PM  

mjbok: Thing that always bothered me about the Rancor sequence is why did Luke have to use a rock?


If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull.  I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.


I agree with this article 100%.  I love ROTJ.  It was the first Star Wars movie I remember seeing (born in '82).  It has a drama to it that I think goes unrealized if you take the movie as itself.  In the first movie, we have no concept of the Rebellion outside of a few fighter squadrons that miraculously take down the death star.  In the second, we see that the Rebellion is a bit bigger, but no match for the Empire in a pitched battle.  Now, in ROTJ, the Rebellion chooses to go into a pitched battle where they are horribly outnumbered in every sense.  The space battle scenes play this up beautifully, as each of the first few sequences get are more desperate than the last, culminating in the death star destroying several rebel cruisers.  Then, once they move into the star destroyer fleet, things start to change for the better.

To me the ultimate culmination of this is when the a-wing crashes through the bridge of the super star destroyer.  Even though the Emperor is dead and death star run has already started, there is still a feeling that the battle itself could go either way because of how overmatched the rebel fleet is, and this kamikaze effort is clearly the point at which the battle is decided in the Rebellion's favor.  I get chills at that scene every time I watch it, and it is my favorite scene of any movie because it is always the clear point at which the good guys won.
 
2014-05-19 07:03:04 PM  
And the Empire will be defeated by Ewoks!
That's highly... unlikely

i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-05-19 07:15:23 PM  

acefox1: bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


I remember a theory put forward in one of the Zahn novels that I liked was that the Emperor was able to use the Force to control the Empire at a granular level from the second Death Star. Not so much that he was controlling the movements and actions of the Imperial Officers and troops involved but more along the lines that he was using the Force to coordinate his forces and control their focus.

The brilliant part of this theory is that the second Death Star battle / Battle of Endor is all going the Empire's Way until Luke goes off-script and the Emperor's focus shifts from the exterior battle to 100% on Luke and Vader. That's the point where Han tricks the bunker commander, the Rebels blow-up the shield generator and the remaining Rebel ships are able to attack the Death Star.

I know, lots of people don't want to hear about any clap-trap from the Expanded Universe and I tired of most of it pretty quickly too. I just like this theory as it adds some depth and a darker tone to the ROTJ plot.


What's crazy about this theory is that it's actually alluded to in the prequels.  Can't remember which one right this second, but in one of them they actually have a conversation between Yoda and Mace Windu where they say that their greatest fear is that the Dark Side is pulling the strings and they can't control it, or something to that effect.  So as crazy (and most probably not intentional) as it is, they actually back this theory up in the prequels.
 
2014-05-19 07:39:37 PM  

show me: I liked it best at the time, and it's still way up there. When Vader picks up the Emperor and throws him down the shaft it gave me goosebumps. It still does.


I like how Vader's mask briefly shows a skull after he throws the Emperor down the shaft.
 
2014-05-19 07:42:19 PM  
And for the record, I love Jedi.  I was 7 when it came out; I may have seen Empire in theaters but I KNOW I saw Jedi in a theater.  Repeatedly.  Hell, I had a cassette with the audio track all the way through the time on Tatooine. To this day I will sit there and unconsciously speak every damned line to the first thirty minutes or so (or whatever the time is, I forget).

\the tape, btw, was frickin' funny as hell when played on my little sister's Teddy Ruxpin doll
 
2014-05-19 07:44:21 PM  

MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

And the A New Hope dual is distractingly awful.  Other than that, I love everything about those movies.


ANH duel between Vader and Kenobi on the surface seems dull in comparison to other saber play, but consider this: Kenobi's objective is to distract Vader and the stormtroopers whilst Luke and the others escape.  He does kinda 'monologuing' to keep Vader's attention.  I would imagine neither had much saber combat since the last encounter; also, that last fight Kenobi handed his ass to him which would justify Vader's caution.

ESB duel between Vader and Luke the objective is also a distraction, as Vader is positioning Luke for the carbonite.  Luke's technique in this duel is aggressive and undisciplined(enforcing much of Yoda's warnings from the Degobah sessions.)   Vader's strategy in this duel is playing Luke's over confidence, whilst demonstrating use of the force in combat (consistent with Sith tactics seen in later movies.) Vader only has to defend Luke's advances, and probably has not had much saber play outside of the last 2 encounters with Kenobi.

Luke's saber/force skills did indeed improve for ROTJ, but nowhere near the level that Kenobi and others are shown to have had in later movies.  Luke's training and demonstrated skill are bare essentials, without having the extensive combat training of the old republic Jedi in episodes 1-3 (granted mostly due to his impatience to complete the training before confronting Vader again.)
 
2014-05-19 08:21:41 PM  

juvandy: If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull. I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.


The only possibility I thought of was the force couldn't do a mechanical switch (see Darth Maul using debris to open a door in TPM), but this isn't true as Vader flips a switch on Bespin via the force and OB1 opens doors on Kamino via the force.
 
2014-05-19 08:47:53 PM  

mjbok: juvandy: If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull. I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.

The only possibility I thought of was the force couldn't do a mechanical switch (see Darth Maul using debris to open a door in TPM), but this isn't true as Vader flips a switch on Bespin via the force and OB1 opens doors on Kamino via the force.


That was a directorial decision. The scene would have worked a lot better if Luke wasn't as panicky and just had a regretful look as he used the Force to flip the switch that closed the door on the poor creature.
 
2014-05-19 08:55:22 PM  
As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

img1.wikia.nocookie.net


They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

basementrejects.com

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.
 
2014-05-19 08:57:15 PM  

mjbok: juvandy: If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull. I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.

The only possibility I thought of was the force couldn't do a mechanical switch (see Darth Maul using debris to open a door in TPM), but this isn't true as Vader flips a switch on Bespin via the force and OB1 opens doors on Kamino via the force.


Technically, Vader flips a toggle switch. The door Maul opens is an electronic palm-pad, IIRC. So I guess the Dark Side isn't good at subtle electronic manipulations, or maybe Maul just didn't know that technique and it was easier to use brute force and slam something into it. Vader, on the other hand, was only dealing with a flip-toggle; Not especially hard to manipulate.
 
2014-05-19 09:10:51 PM  

g-booby: MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

And the A New Hope dual is distractingly awful.  Other than that, I love everything about those movies.

ANH duel between Vader and Kenobi on the surface seems dull in comparison to other saber play, but consider this: Kenobi's objective is to distract Vader and the stormtroopers whilst Luke and the others escape.  He does kinda 'monologuing' to keep Vader's attention.  I would imagine neither had much saber combat since the last encounter; also, that last fight Kenobi handed his ass to him which would justify Vader's caution.

ESB duel between Vader and Luke the objective is also a distraction, as Vader is positioning Luke for the carbonite.  Luke's technique in this duel is aggressive and undisciplined(enforcing much of Yoda's warnings from the Degobah sessions.)   Vader's strategy in this duel is playing Luke's over confidence, whilst demonstrating use of the force in combat (consistent with Sith tactics seen in later movies.) Vader only has to defend Luke's advances, and probably has not had much saber play outside of the last 2 encounters with Kenobi.

Luke's saber/force skills did indeed improve for ROTJ, but nowhere near the level that Kenobi and others are shown to have had in later movies.  Luke's training and demonstrated skill are bare essentials, without having the extensive combat training of the old republic Jedi in episodes 1-3 (granted mostly due to his impatience to complete the training before confronting Vader again.)


More importantly in ANH, neither Obi-Wan nor Anakin/Vader are in their prime anymore: Obi-Wan is an old man who hasn't been in any major combat in decades, and Anakin is a quadruple amputee in a walking iron lung.
 
2014-05-19 09:21:26 PM  

JerseyTim: The "I am a Jedi ... *headnod* .. like my father before me" scene is the best scene in any Star Wars film, all three of them.


I prefer "No...there is another", but yours is great, too.
 
2014-05-19 09:22:51 PM  

Nix Nightbird: Technically, Vader flips a toggle switch. The door Maul opens is an electronic palm-pad, IIRC. So I guess the Dark Side isn't good at subtle electronic manipulations, or maybe Maul just didn't know that technique and it was easier to use brute force and slam something into it. Vader, on the other hand, was only dealing with a flip-toggle; Not especially hard to manipulate.


Either way I thought that move was really cool.  He doesn't look at it, he just does it.

//Does anyone else "force-open" automatic sliding doors?
 
2014-05-19 09:23:16 PM  

Nix Nightbird: As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

[img1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x637]

They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

[basementrejects.com image 600x305]

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.


Great post.  Fundamentally if Ralph McQuarrie drew it, it is canon.  I understand the reasoning behind the idea of Ewoks as made for kids, but that doesn't mean they couldn't also be proficient warriors even with limited technology.  The habitat they are fighting also stacks the odds in their favor- they are well-camouflaged and able to sneak up so close to the Imperials that they can find the chinks in the armor before the Imps can take them out at range with blasterfire.

The Ewoks also use very smart small-unit guerrilla tactics.  They show up with an arrow salvo that is admittedly ineffective, and then basically run away/taunt the imps into following them.  The imps follow, but smartly only with stormtroopers, walkers, and speeders.  In all cases, the ewoks force the imps to pursue them into well-concealed ambushes and traps chosen on ground of their choosing, where their small size, excellent camouflage, and brute-force weapons (big rocks, logs) can be used to negate the technological advantage of the empire.  It's classic Sun Tzu.

At the same time, while their heavy infantry/armor is chasing the Ewoks, the imps forget about the rebel special forces at their rear, and their unarmoured and command forces are quickly wiped out.  Note that throughout the whole sequence you never see a dead rebel- these guys are hardcore infantry, well-trained and used to fighting outnumbered using the same style of guerrilla tactics the Ewoks employ.  Once Chewbacca gets in a walker and is able to also better balance the technological advantage of the empire, the game's over.

Granted, they got extremely lucky, but I don't think the idea is as far-fetched as people seem to think.  If the imperial helmets/walkers had IR gear they would have wiped the ewoks out pretty quickly, regardless of their tactics.  That said, there's no evidence they do have that ability- even the gunners in the walkers are aiming through open viewports rather than any kind of true digital aiming system.  The rebels, especially those trained by the imperial academies, like Han, would know all of those technological abilities going into the battle.
 
2014-05-19 09:55:47 PM  

mjbok: frestcrallen: He actually constructs the new lightsaber in Kenobi's old Tatooine dwelling (using tools there) and plants it in R2 before heading to Jabba's palace. It was a scene in the novelization for Jedi. I believe it was also filmed, but ended up being cut along with the sandstorm scene. I always took it to mean that Kenobi was giving him "ghost pointers + tips" on how to make one. Or maybe he had the instructions written down on the back of the his recipe for Stewed Bantha Loin.

I usually am the one beaten to the post while typing it.  This time I win!


Yep. It is on the blu-ray.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ayT0EZwbks
 
2014-05-19 10:24:03 PM  
ROTJ starts out every bit as good as either of the first two movies. But once they fly away from the Sarlacc pit, it's all downhill fast. Ewok stupidity, a replay of the death star destruction, and all Luke's ghosty friends at the ending? Blech.

Let's not revise history. ROTJ set the stage for the clusterfark trilogy that followed it over a decade later.
 
2014-05-19 10:25:46 PM  
I dont hate Ewoks but they were handled poorly. When you see them beating down armored troopers with twigs, it makes your eyes roll. Dont even get me started on chopping down all those trees and setting up traps for the AT-ST.

Using the bolas to choke troopers was clever. They should have done more things like that and be distractions while the REBELS took care of the Empire. Maybe they wouldnt have been so hated.

The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.
 
2014-05-19 11:11:07 PM  

Omis: The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.


Blame someone other than Lucas for that.
 
2014-05-20 12:31:56 AM  

Omis: I dont hate Ewoks but they were handled poorly. When you see them beating down armored troopers with twigs, it makes your eyes roll. Dont even get me started on chopping down all those trees and setting up traps for the AT-ST.

Using the bolas to choke troopers was clever. They should have done more things like that and be distractions while the REBELS took care of the Empire. Maybe they wouldnt have been so hated.

The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.


The trees traps were already there. They maintain a number of traps to lure attacking gorax and other predators into them. Note that the Rebels were ALSO caught in a pre-existing Ewok trap (the net).
 
2014-05-20 12:43:11 AM  

Nix Nightbird: Omis: I dont hate Ewoks but they were handled poorly. When you see them beating down armored troopers with twigs, it makes your eyes roll. Dont even get me started on chopping down all those trees and setting up traps for the AT-ST.

Using the bolas to choke troopers was clever. They should have done more things like that and be distractions while the REBELS took care of the Empire. Maybe they wouldnt have been so hated.

The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.

The trees traps were already there. They maintain a number of traps to lure attacking gorax and other predators into them. Note that the Rebels were ALSO caught in a pre-existing Ewok trap (the net).


If you say so. But none of that was in the movie. Probably for good reason. It would make the movie even dumber.
 
2014-05-20 01:03:28 AM  
And just to reinforce the point. You say the Gorax can grow up to 60 meters tall. An AT-AT is 20 meters. An AT-ST is only 8.6 meters tall. Those Goraxs would be seen and heard miles away. Yet no one even mentions them. And those tree trunks traps would do nothing to it.
 
2014-05-20 01:12:28 AM  

Fomby_Belcher: THE EWOK SONG!!!


I never saw the movie, so to me it's the closing theme of Daves of Thunder.
 
2014-05-20 02:35:38 AM  
Vader initially hiding Luke using the force from the Emperor

Darth Vader: A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.
The Emperor: Yes, I know.
Darth Vader: My son is with them.
The Emperor: Are you sure?
Darth Vader: I have *felt* him, my master.
The Emperor: Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.
Darth Vader: They are clear, my master.
 
2014-05-20 02:48:01 AM  

Nix Nightbird: As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

[img1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x637]

They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

[basementrejects.com image 600x305]

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.


Ewok on Titan?
 
2014-05-20 06:47:03 AM  

JustHereForThePics: Igor Jakovsky: I liked the ewoks when i wad a child. Now not so much which i guess was kind of the point of having them in the movie. Loved Jabba, the space battles and the final showdown with vader and the emperor


Speaking of star wars pandering to kids, Ive been watching the clone wars on netflix and it isnt too bad.

Get back to me about Clone Wars after the 85th "I have a bad feeling about this".

Plus, if you watch Revenge immediately afterward, the Anakin character is just so godawfully bad, it makes you cringe.

It as if the writers of Clone Wars just said "fark continuity, we're doing our own shait here".

Plus the occasional droid-centric episodes that are CLEARLY aimed at 7 year olds, you have a bit of a hot mess.

There is some gold in there, but you gotta mine for it.

Loved the occasional "Raider's" easter eggs, however.


I can only enjoy Clone Wars when Anakin isn't around.  Or too much of the lame-ass battle droid banter.  Prequels or animated, he was never an interesting character, to me.
 
2014-05-20 08:59:30 AM  
Because the prequels make The Holiday Special look good?
 
2014-05-20 12:04:59 PM  

B.L.Z. Bub: Fomby_Belcher: THE EWOK SONG!!!

I never saw the movie, so to me it's the closing theme of Daves of Thunder.


Williams official title was "Ewok Celebration"...  we played it in band when I was in the 8th grade.
 
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