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(Den Of Geek)   Why Return Of The Jedi deserves more love   (denofgeek.com) divider line 128
    More: Interesting, Jedi, Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars, Empire, Jedi deserves, Deathstars, space battle, Joseph Campbell  
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3818 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 19 May 2014 at 12:16 PM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



128 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-05-19 11:54:45 AM  
The "I am a Jedi ... *headnod* .. like my father before me" scene is the best scene in any Star Wars film, all three of them.
 
2014-05-19 11:56:51 AM  
Bunch of f*cking muppets.
 
2014-05-19 12:03:37 PM  
Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.
 
2014-05-19 12:15:19 PM  
I liked it best at the time, and it's still way up there. When Vader picks up the Emperor and throws him down the shaft it gave me goosebumps. It still does.
 
2014-05-19 12:20:17 PM  

Nabb1: Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.


Agreed. Love Return of the Jedi. Especially the Jabba's Palace/Sarlacc Pit scenes.

The Special Edition changes are pretty shiatty though.
 
2014-05-19 12:24:01 PM  
"It's a Tarp"
 
2014-05-19 12:24:55 PM  
Has the best space battles scenes of all the others combined.
 
2014-05-19 12:25:16 PM  
By far the best space battle in the original trilogy. When I finally got my hands on X-Wing and TIE Fighter, the second Death Star was the battle I most wanted to simulate. That was the one that made it really feel like space dog fighting, instead of pseudo-Earth dog fighting. Full speed, any angle, evasive maneuvers in any direction.
 
2014-05-19 12:27:09 PM  
The scene of RD zapping an Ewok's ass had to be the lowest point in Star Wars (yes, even lower than Bea Author's cantina singing).
 
2014-05-19 12:27:18 PM  
Return of the Jedi is a great example of a fun movie that could have been SOOOOOO much better.  Wookies instead of Ewoks and we're done.

Or maybe explain to me why the Rebellion allowed some of their most valuable agents to all commit to such an awful plan to rescue Han rather than, I don't know, sparing a few soldiers?
 
2014-05-19 12:27:47 PM  
R2 (because I know you spelling Nazis are out there, goosestepping)
 
2014-05-19 12:28:45 PM  
I have never heard of "Return of the Jedi". I had to click on the link. I don't watch movies (or TV in general) so I couldn't give an opinion anyway. After reading that article, seems like I'm not missing much.
 
2014-05-19 12:30:52 PM  
In Empire, when Leia tells Han she loves him, his response before being turned into a carbonite popsicle is pretty badass. When they swap lines in Jedi, it's goddamned amazing.

I unabashedly love the movie, Ewoks and all.
 
2014-05-19 12:32:20 PM  
Not nearly enough talk about midichlorians for my taste.
 
2014-05-19 12:33:09 PM  

weddingsinger: Return of the Jedi is a great example of a fun movie that could have been SOOOOOO much better.  Wookies instead of Ewoks and we're done.

Or maybe explain to me why the Rebellion allowed some of their most valuable agents to all commit to such an awful plan to rescue Han rather than, I don't know, sparing a few soldiers?


Or why, if the X-Wings could concentrate their shields to double-front, why they couldn't move it to double-rear when they were in the Death Star trench?

And firing at the exhaust port from a  horizontal level when the damn hole could have been approached from a straight-down firing angle?

And Stormtrooper armor that can't even stop a rock thrown by a teddy bear! Dafuq, George?!

No wonder Carrie Fisher had her face buried deep into a baggie of coke from '74-83 and Mark Hamill tried to end it all by crashing his car!
 
2014-05-19 12:36:44 PM  

TV's Vinnie: And firing at the exhaust port from a  horizontal level when the damn hole could have been approached from a straight-down firing angle?


I always figured the trench run was to avoid heavy turret fire. Approaching straight down leaves a nice easy spot to fire from below.
 
2014-05-19 12:41:40 PM  
I have one, perhaps two reasons:

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-19 12:42:32 PM  

Nabb1: Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.


And that is how we ended up with Jar-Jar
Won't someone stop thinking of the kids.
 
2014-05-19 12:42:32 PM  

exick: In Empire, when Leia tells Han she loves him, his response before being turned into a carbonite popsicle is pretty badass. When they swap lines in Jedi, it's goddamned amazing.

I unabashedly love the movie, Ewoks and all.


I grew up loving the Ewoks. My parents taped "Caravan of Courage" off of TV when they knew they were pregnant with a boy and I grew up watching that and RotJ non-stop. I actually watched the movies in reversed order because I was curious as to what happened before RotJ and didn't think to start at the beginning.

/My mom's parents owned only 2 movies on VHS when I would visit. 1 was Temple of Doom. I thought for a long time that was the only Indiana Jone's movie...
//my other grand parents owned only Jaws 2 and Jaws: The Revenge...
///needless to say I really enjoy watching bad movies as an adult
 
2014-05-19 12:44:13 PM  
Considering i was a kid when it came out, I always liked the Ewoks, and still do, to this day.  I greatly prefer the original cut with the Ewok theme song at the end, rather than the new CGI incarnation.

I probably prefer Jedi over Empire too.  Empire doesn't have any plot arc.  Its too obviously a middle segment.
 
2014-05-19 12:46:33 PM  

Nabb1: Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.


I thought we got Ewoks because of $$$.  Midgets are cheaper to hire and costume than 50 wookies?
 
2014-05-19 12:46:51 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Or why, if the X-Wings could concentrate their shields to double-front, why they couldn't move it to double-rear when they were in the Death Star trench?


I don't know about double-rear, they do comment on setting the deflectors to rear:

"Gold Two: [the Y-wings are running the gauntlet toward the Death Star reactor-port] The guns - they've stopped!
Gold Five: [realizes why] Stabilize your rear deflectors... Watch for enemy fighters. "

/Kind of sad I remember that line.
//Then again, my fark name kind of says it all.
///ROTJ is ok for nostalgia value, but Empire is still best.
 
2014-05-19 12:48:53 PM  
It has the best space battles by far, but the Ewoks are the least of its problems.  The Jabba section runs way too long for what it accomplishes, Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" speech is a cop-out, and Leia-as-sister was a bullshiat way to defuse that love triangle the series had going.

I don't think it's a bad film on the whole, but it does have a lot of missed dramatic potential.
 
2014-05-19 12:54:30 PM  

weddingsinger: I thought we got Ewoks because of $$$.  Midgets are cheaper to hire and costume than 50 wookies?


I remember the justification was that Wookies were too technically advanced to work in the "bunch of savages defeats the Empire" role the movie had for them, so they were swapped for something physically opposite (very short instead of very tall, etc.).
 
2014-05-19 12:58:11 PM  
The first half hour (Han's rescue from Jabba) is amazing, old school adventure film making, and the three
way duel between Luke, Vader and the Emperor is amazingly deep stuff.

Other than that, though, it is the film you watch only because it completes the story started in episodes IV and V.
 
2014-05-19 01:01:57 PM  

flynn80: Nabb1: Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.

And that is how we ended up with Jar-Jar



Jar-jar made the Ewoks look like...farking Shaft
 
2014-05-19 01:02:26 PM  
I think everyone agrees that it has its problems but is still a really fun movie. It's the least of the original trilogy but only slightly; a 9/10 following two 10/10s. It sure as hell looks better now it's been followed by two 3/10s and one 5/10.

And to answer TFAs "people aren't looking forward to the next one!", that's because JJ Abrams makes fun popcorn movies with no heart or depth. Episode VII will be technically well made and well paced and we'll be entertained for 2 hours... But we won't remember what happened in it the next day.
 
2014-05-19 01:04:21 PM  

weddingsinger: Or maybe explain to me why the Rebellion allowed some of their most valuable agents to all commit to such an awful plan to rescue Han rather than, I don't know, sparing a few soldiers?


That was a personal thing, not a rebel alliance thing.  Han was not a member of the rebel alliance at that point. Luke, Leia, Lando, etc. did this on their own.  This wasn't a sanctioned rescue.

Trocadero: By far the best space battle in the original trilogy.


The most technically complex special effects shot that had ever been done (and now with computers doing all the heavy lifting it will never be surpassed).  Just the sheer number of composited elements in one frame is unreal.  That is also why there is a mistake in the initial shot of the Tie Fighters swarming the Falcon.
 
2014-05-19 01:07:15 PM  
At least the Ewoks are adorable, not like that grating JarJar guy.
 
2014-05-19 01:07:34 PM  

UberDave: flynn80: Nabb1: Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.

And that is how we ended up with Jar-Jar


Jar-jar made the Ewoks look like...farking Shaft


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-05-19 01:13:32 PM  
My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?
 
2014-05-19 01:15:26 PM  
The ewoks aren't so ridiculously cute when you realize that the stormtroopers they killed probably ended up as stew.
 
2014-05-19 01:18:08 PM  
Goddamned Jedi Luke Skywalker has to throw a rock at a switch to kill the Rancor, but not until after he manually puts a bone in its mouth to keep it from biting down on him.
And he has to manually fight everyone on Jabba's 2 transports instead of using the force to shove them off and into Sarlacc.  Is he that weak that he doesn't know how to do it, yet goes and kills Darth Vader?
And no, the Ewoks can't overtake the Empire garrison on a forest moon of Endor that had a faciility to shield the new Death Star.

8 year old me didn't care, but Jedi deserves a remake or a redo or something.
 
2014-05-19 01:23:56 PM  

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


They bugged out after seeing the command ship and the death star get wasted. Hell, I would too.
 
2014-05-19 01:25:16 PM  

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


I always wondered this too, but figured with the Death Star gone and the Emperor dead, what was left of the Empire fleet was so demoralized they most likely beat a hasty retreat.
 
2014-05-19 01:31:01 PM  
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi

This is the only three-movie set that really works well all together.

There was growing excitement between each one, and the next one that came out didn't disappoint.
Best Trilogy Evar!
 
2014-05-19 01:34:58 PM  
THE EWOK SONG!!!
img.fark.net
 
2014-05-19 01:35:33 PM  

Cymbal: bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?

I always wondered this too, but figured with the Death Star gone and the Emperor dead, what was left of the Empire fleet was so demoralized they most likely beat a hasty retreat.


Considering most of the Imperial officers were dullards chosen for their ability to  follow orders, not create plans or come up with solutions to problems, I'd say that's a fair assessment. Vader kills several officers because they're nitwits who are more concerned with appearing important and intimidating without actually having the brass (or brains) to back it up.
 
2014-05-19 01:37:06 PM  

Evil Mackerel: bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?

They bugged out after seeing the command ship and the death star get wasted. Hell, I would too.


Imagine if the Americans retreated during the Battle of Midway after the Yorktown was sunk.
 
2014-05-19 01:44:37 PM  
The Ewoks weren't annoying because they were little furball cannibal aliens.  That part was fine.

They were annoying because everyone had a running complaint about the stormtroopers being incredibly useless in the first movie, and the creators seemed to have noted the problem and addressed it in  Empire, then in Jedi when Lucas got back more direct control he had a set of animated teddy bears with no technology beyond the second-class lever  completely curb stomp them without the entire imperial ground force being able to offer the slightest shred of resistance.

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


The entire 'trap' hinged on the fact that, had the DS not been working, the imperial forces would be massively outnumbered and outgunned.  This was why they risked the attack in the first place.

Once the station was destroyed... the imperials were just massively outnumbered and outgunned, without the 'trap' aspect.  Withdrawing from that territory was the right call.

// Albeit it was never quite clear how long hyperspace trips actually took in the movies.  I'd always assumed they were equivalent to trans-oceanic voyages, taking something like months in out-of-hyperspace time, given the whole port/hub organization of shipping and so on.  So they couldn't just hot-drop more of their forces on there in the apparent seconds seen by the people in the warping ship.
 
2014-05-19 01:50:04 PM  

Jim_Callahan: The entire 'trap' hinged on the fact that, had the DS not been working, the imperial forces would be massively outnumbered and outgunned.  This was why they risked the attack in the first place.

Once the station was destroyed... the imperials were just massively outnumbered and outgunned, without the 'trap' aspect.  Withdrawing from that territory was the right call.

// Albeit it was never quite clear how long hyperspace trips actually took in the movies.  I'd always assumed they were equivalent to trans-oceanic voyages, taking something like months in out-of-hyperspace time, given the whole port/hub organization of shipping and so on.  So they couldn't just hot-drop more of their forces on there in the apparent seconds seen by the people in the warping ship.


I thought the Imperial forces greatly outnumbered the Rebels.  The only reason the Rebels survived was because the Emperor stupidly ordered the Star Destroyers not to fire while he was playing with his fully armed and operational toy.  The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.
 
2014-05-19 01:52:16 PM  

bark_atda_moon: The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.


Yep.  The fact that the fleet was there was a surprise.
 
2014-05-19 01:52:25 PM  

bark_atda_moon: Imagine if the Americans retreated during the Battle of Midway after the Yorktown was sunk.


That would have been hard to do.  What with the battle having already ended by the time the Yorktown gave up and sank.
 
2014-05-19 02:02:04 PM  

mjbok: bark_atda_moon: The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.

Yep.  The fact that the fleet was there was a surprise.

i512.photobucket.com
 
2014-05-19 02:03:20 PM  

bark_atda_moon: I thought the Imperial forces greatly outnumbered the Rebels. The only reason the Rebels survived was because the Emperor stupidly ordered the Star Destroyers not to fire while he was playing with his fully armed and operational toy. The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.


I think all six movies illustrate that Palpatine was a master manipulator, but utter sh*t at everything else. He had all the power but spoiled it because he was an egotistical asshole. Emperor he could become, but emperor he could not be.

Even at the end, when Darth's ready to turn babyface he couldn't help himself. Palpatine tried to convince Luke to kill Vader and become his apprentice wih Vader standing right there.

So it makes sense that he'd pick crappy officers and raise an army that looked intimidating, but was corrupt and inept as all get-out. The empire had one thing going: size. It was massive and pervasive. But the whole galaxy knew how to skirt around Palpatine's authority, and many characters were proud to ignore it (Especially gangsters and smugglers).
 
2014-05-19 02:03:48 PM  

Click Click D'oh: bark_atda_moon: Imagine if the Americans retreated during the Battle of Midway after the Yorktown was sunk.

That would have been hard to do.  What with the battle having already ended by the time the Yorktown gave up and sank.


You got me there.  Yorktown was abandoned an hour before the Japanese carriers were sunk.  They tried to salvage it and a submarine sunk it later.
 
2014-05-19 02:04:55 PM  

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?



I remember a theory put forward in one of the Zahn novels that I liked was that the Emperor was able to use the Force to control the Empire at a granular level from the second Death Star. Not so much that he was controlling the movements and actions of the Imperial Officers and troops involved but more along the lines that he was using the Force to coordinate his forces and control their focus.

The brilliant part of this theory is that the second Death Star battle / Battle of Endor is all going the Empire's Way until Luke goes off-script and the Emperor's focus shifts from the exterior battle to 100% on Luke and Vader. That's the point where Han tricks the bunker commander, the Rebels blow-up the shield generator and the remaining Rebel ships are able to attack the Death Star.

I know, lots of people don't want to hear about any clap-trap from the Expanded Universe and I tired of most of it pretty quickly too. I just like this theory as it adds some depth and a darker tone to the ROTJ plot.
 
2014-05-19 02:10:54 PM  

Nana's Vibrator: Goddamned Jedi Luke Skywalker has to throw a rock at a switch to kill the Rancor, but not until after he manually puts a bone in its mouth to keep it from biting down on him.
And he has to manually fight everyone on Jabba's 2 transports instead of using the force to shove them off and into Sarlacc.


Per my recollection, Lucas really amp'd up the force powers in Eps 1-3 than was shown all through the originally series.
 
2014-05-19 02:11:12 PM  

bark_atda_moon: Jim_Callahan: The entire 'trap' hinged on the fact that, had the DS not been working, the imperial forces would be massively outnumbered and outgunned.  This was why they risked the attack in the first place.

Once the station was destroyed... the imperials were just massively outnumbered and outgunned, without the 'trap' aspect.  Withdrawing from that territory was the right call.

// Albeit it was never quite clear how long hyperspace trips actually took in the movies.  I'd always assumed they were equivalent to trans-oceanic voyages, taking something like months in out-of-hyperspace time, given the whole port/hub organization of shipping and so on.  So they couldn't just hot-drop more of their forces on there in the apparent seconds seen by the people in the warping ship.

I thought the Imperial forces greatly outnumbered the Rebels.  The only reason the Rebels survived was because the Emperor stupidly ordered the Star Destroyers not to fire while he was playing with his fully armed and operational toy.  The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.


I liked Zahn's explanation for this.  His idea was that the Emperor used the Force to directly influence the ability of his forces to work together effectively.  With the Emperor dead, the fleet fell into disorganization and couldn't mount an effective counterattack against the Rebels.
 
2014-05-19 02:16:51 PM  

verbaltoxin: I think all six movies illustrate that Palpatine was a master manipulator, but utter sh*t at everything else. He had all the power but spoiled it because he was an egotistical asshole. Emperor he could become, but emperor he could not be.


He was in charge for a couple of decades.  Not a bad run.  If you include his time as Chancellor it approaches 40 years.  Just as Emperor it is low 20's.  Still not a bad run.
 
2014-05-19 02:22:38 PM  

MugzyBrown: Nana's Vibrator: Goddamned Jedi Luke Skywalker has to throw a rock at a switch to kill the Rancor, but not until after he manually puts a bone in its mouth to keep it from biting down on him.
And he has to manually fight everyone on Jabba's 2 transports instead of using the force to shove them off and into Sarlacc.

Per my recollection, Lucas really amp'd up the force powers in Eps 1-3 than was shown all through the originally series.


It makes sense if you assume Obi-Wan and Yoda taught Luke the bare essentials.
 
2014-05-19 02:23:13 PM  
VIX?
 
2014-05-19 02:26:09 PM  
Zahn was a great apologist, but yeah, Lucas was a hack when it came to telling a consistent, suspenseful story.

Oblig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbkN9vb__8
 
2014-05-19 02:43:03 PM  
It isn't a hard argument to make that ROTJ did deliver despite everyone's favourite forest teddies.  From the get-go Luke was finally showing some badassery after being shiat on by Yoda for most of the last film, Leia had stripped down to beach attire in perfect sync with audiences' exploding pubescence, Solo was finally fully on board with the Rebellion.  Plus more lightsabers.  Good times.
 
2014-05-19 02:47:08 PM  

DubyaHater: I have never heard of "Return of the Jedi". I had to click on the link. I don't watch movies (or TV in general) so I couldn't give an opinion anyway. After reading that article, seems like I'm not missing much.


Thanks for the awesome contribution to this thread.
 
2014-05-19 02:47:24 PM  
The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

And the A New Hope dual is distractingly awful.  Other than that, I love everything about those movies.
 
2014-05-19 02:55:25 PM  
Jabba's Palace segment was pretty good, although it went on a bit longer than necessary.  The Ewoks were a disgrace, but in between all that was some really good stuff going on.  You've got Lando redeeming himself for being a douchey sellout in ESB, Leia going into the belly of the beast to save the man she loves, Luke truly having to stand on his own after the death of Yoda, and the whole redemption of Vader and downfall of the Emperor couldn't have been any better.  This was the perfect ending to the real trilogy.
 
2014-05-19 02:55:55 PM  

UberDave: flynn80: Nabb1: Yeah, the Ewoks were pandering to the younger kids. I still put "Empire" on a pedestal, but I still love ROTJ in spite of its faults.

And that is how we ended up with Jar-Jar


Jar-jar made the Ewoks look like...farking Shaft


New Shaft or old Shaft? because New Shaft with Samuel L Jackson sucked Elephant Balls.
 
2014-05-19 02:56:36 PM  

MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

And the A New Hope dual is distractingly awful.  Other than that, I love everything about those movies.


Vader was completely f'ing with him.  He was fighting him one handed most of the time.  He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.
 
2014-05-19 02:58:13 PM  

MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?


Did you not watch the end of the duel? Vader had no intention of killing Luke, he never did. He wanted Luke to think that he was more powerful than he was and wanted Luke to join him.
 
2014-05-19 02:59:26 PM  
I hate the fact they removed the 'old' Anakin from the end sequence of ROTJ and replaced him with pointless young Anakin. It completely felt like a father's sacrifice was wasted at that moment, and fark the 'that was who he was before he turned to the darkside' bullshiat excuse.
 
2014-05-19 03:00:10 PM  

extroverted_suicide: Vader was completely f'ing with him. He was fighting him one handed most of the time. He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.


Absolutely.  Think of an adult playing 1-1 with a youngish kid.  If they just destroy them it's not fun for the kid and they'll quit.
 
2014-05-19 03:01:59 PM  

bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


Because the Emperor and Darth Vader knew and used Battle Meditation to increase the effectiveness of the Imperial Navy. This allowed them to substitute their ability for the subordinates ability. They promoted people based on how susceptible to the use of Force they were and not competence. Hence why the Imperial forces were composed all most exclusively of humans, as they are the weakest willed species in the galaxy. Once both sources of Battle Meditation were withdrawnImperial forces were massively incompetent.
 
2014-05-19 03:06:05 PM  
Everything in the throne room between Vader, Luke and the Emperor was gold. When Luke finally loses it and succumbs to the Dark Side, going after Vader it was epic. That and Anakin's funeral pyre was simply great cinema.

Who gets paid to write all this shiat that was already covered in theforce.net.com forums like 15 years ago?
 
2014-05-19 03:12:30 PM  

ConConHead: I hate the fact they removed the 'old' Anakin from the end sequence of ROTJ and replaced him with pointless young Anakin. It completely felt like a father's sacrifice was wasted at that moment, and fark the 'that was who he was before he turned to the darkside' bullshiat excuse.


I don't get why people are pissed at this. Now that we've seen the prequels and we know what young Anakin looks like, the original ghost Anakin wouldn't make any sense because he never looked like that. He either looked like a burned up head and torso or he looked like he was before he was "murdered" by Vader. He never looked like the guy in the original version of the movie.

So if you're coming back as a spirit, which form would you choose? Anakin chose the form he remembers he wish he was, Obi Wan chose his older form, the one Luke remembers and Yoda is Yoda. I don't see the problem.
 
2014-05-19 03:20:55 PM  

extroverted_suicide: Vader was completely f'ing with him.  He was fighting him one handed most of the time.  He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.


Mugato: Did you not watch the end of the duel? Vader had no intention of killing Luke, he never did. He wanted Luke to think that he was more powerful than he was and wanted Luke to join him.


Sorta.  Vader's other two duals are fighting an old guy to a draw before the old guy sacrifices himself, and losing to Luke in ROTJ.  In the fight in Empire, his first goal was to freeze Luke, which he fails to do, then he gets kicked off a platform and takes a minor saber blow to the shoulder before winning.  The onscreen action doesn't build a great for him as badass lightsaber grandmaster.
 
2014-05-19 03:32:14 PM  

Mugato: MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

Did you not watch the end of the duel? Vader had no intention of killing Luke, he never did. He wanted Luke to think that he was more powerful than he was and wanted Luke to join him.


Not only does Vader not want Luke dead, he saves Luke's life and let's him go.  Once Luke realizes he is beaten, he lets go of the railing with full intention to plummet to his death.  Vader uses The Force to direct him into that tube thing.  And as in Episode IV, the Falcon's subsequent rescue of Luke and escape is just too easy given that the place is overrun with imperial forces.   That's all Vader.
 
2014-05-19 03:32:18 PM  

mjbok: Just the sheer number of composited elements in one frame is unreal.  That is also why there is a mistake in the initial shot of the Tie Fighters swarming the Falcon


learned about the masking error in the original making-of documentary, so every time I've seen the movie  I can't help but notice it. Thanks, Obama.
 
2014-05-19 03:33:47 PM  

MooseMuffin: Sorta.  Vader's other two duals are fighting an old guy to a draw before the old guy sacrifices himself, and losing to Luke in ROTJ.  In the fight in Empire, his first goal was to freeze Luke, which he fails to do, then he gets kicked off a platform and takes a minor saber blow to the shoulder before winning.  The onscreen action doesn't build a great for him as badass lightsaber grandmaster.


The duel between Vader and Obai Wan was more of a chess match than a Jet Li/Jackie Chan kung fu movie type fight. They had done it all before. It was more of a strategy match between two masters rather than who could do the most back flips. Besides, no one ever said that Vader, in his cybernetic suit was nearly the fighter he was than before he got all farked up.

In Empire it was a combination Vader making Luke feel that he was a powerful fighter while at the same time making him learn that he still needed a Vader to overthrow the Emperor. So he gave him a few small victories before he out the smack down.
 
2014-05-19 03:34:17 PM  

MooseMuffin: extroverted_suicide: Vader was completely f'ing with him.  He was fighting him one handed most of the time.  He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.

Mugato: Did you not watch the end of the duel? Vader had no intention of killing Luke, he never did. He wanted Luke to think that he was more powerful than he was and wanted Luke to join him.

Sorta.  Vader's other two duals are fighting an old guy to a draw before the old guy sacrifices himself, and losing to Luke in ROTJ.  In the fight in Empire, his first goal was to freeze Luke, which he fails to do, then he gets kicked off a platform and takes a minor saber blow to the shoulder before winning.  The onscreen action doesn't build a great for him as badass lightsaber grandmaster.


Anakin was a badass lightsaber dualist before he became "more machine now than man". Vader's suit, while allowing him to walk, is a pretty significant physical handicap. He essentially has to carry around an iron lung into every battle.
 
2014-05-19 03:36:26 PM  

Persnickety: Not only does Vader not want Luke dead, he saves Luke's life and let's him go. Once Luke realizes he is beaten, he lets go of the railing with full intention to plummet to his death. Vader uses The Force to direct him into that tube thing. And as in Episode IV, the Falcon's subsequent rescue of Luke and escape is just too easy given that the place is overrun with imperial forces. That's all Vader.


First part is right. Second part is not.
 
2014-05-19 03:37:22 PM  

Mugato: ConConHead: I hate the fact they removed the 'old' Anakin from the end sequence of ROTJ and replaced him with pointless young Anakin. It completely felt like a father's sacrifice was wasted at that moment, and fark the 'that was who he was before he turned to the darkside' bullshiat excuse.

I don't get why people are pissed at this. Now that we've seen the prequels and we know what young Anakin looks like, the original ghost Anakin wouldn't make any sense because he never looked like that. He either looked like a burned up head and torso or he looked like he was before he was "murdered" by Vader. He never looked like the guy in the original version of the movie.

So if you're coming back as a spirit, which form would you choose? Anakin chose the form he remembers he wish he was, Obi Wan chose his older form, the one Luke remembers and Yoda is Yoda. I don't see the problem.


It's sort of like if Picasso became a Nazi later in life and hired a Disney artist to paint B-52s with Soviet insignia along the top of the Guernica.  I mean it's his painting, right? He can go pick it up at the museum and do what he likes with it.
 
2014-05-19 03:50:38 PM  

show me: I liked it best at the time, and it's still way up there. When Vader picks up the Emperor and throws him down the shaft it gave me goosebumps. It still does.


I especially like that he did it without saying or yelling anything.
 
2014-05-19 03:50:39 PM  

macadamnut: I mean it's his painting, right? He can go pick it up at the museum and do what he likes with it.


Did he sell it or did he still own it?

The problem with the force ghosts is there no way Anakin should have been able to do it.  QGJ was the first one to understand it.  He passed it to Yoda, who passed it to Obi.  No one taught such things to Anakin.
 
2014-05-19 03:53:44 PM  
I liked the ewoks when i wad a child. Now not so much which i guess was kind of the point of having them in the movie. Loved Jabba, the space battles and the final showdown with vader and the emperor


Speaking of star wars pandering to kids, Ive been watching the clone wars on netflix and it isnt too bad.
 
2014-05-19 03:55:39 PM  
I give you art:

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-19 03:59:10 PM  

bark_atda_moon: Evil Mackerel: bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?

They bugged out after seeing the command ship and the death star get wasted. Hell, I would too.

Imagine if the Americans retreated during the Battle of Midway after the Yorktown was sunk.


So America is the Empire? Then why were they all British?
 
2014-05-19 04:06:22 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I give you art:

[i.imgur.com image 480x750]


Nice, never seen that before.
 
2014-05-19 04:08:47 PM  
I'm off Star Wars until someone can justify the alarming lack of safety railings.  It sets a very bad example for kids.
 
2014-05-19 04:10:11 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: MugzyBrown: Nana's Vibrator: Goddamned Jedi Luke Skywalker has to throw a rock at a switch to kill the Rancor, but not until after he manually puts a bone in its mouth to keep it from biting down on him.
And he has to manually fight everyone on Jabba's 2 transports instead of using the force to shove them off and into Sarlacc.

Per my recollection, Lucas really amp'd up the force powers in Eps 1-3 than was shown all through the originally series.

It makes sense if you assume Obi-Wan and Yoda taught Luke the bare essentials.


In the PM Obi-Wan had 10 to 15 years training and experiance under his belt, Qui-Gon 20 to 30 years. By the time of RotJ Luke had less than a year with Yoda.

So yeh a twenty year veteran Jedi could of just walked into Jaba's palace and killed everyone if needed. Luke had to use his brains a lot more.
 
2014-05-19 04:13:19 PM  

mjbok: macadamnut: I mean it's his painting, right? He can go pick it up at the museum and do what he likes with it.

Did he sell it or did he still own it?

The problem with the force ghosts is there no way Anakin should have been able to do it.  QGJ was the first one to understand it.  He passed it to Yoda, who passed it to Obi.  No one taught such things to Anakin.


I could give a fark about the patchwork tangle of retro-active continuity revision. I don't want to watch Casablanca in color because Casablanca wasn't in color. I've seen Casablanca in color and it's complete shiat. I saw Star Wars twenty times in theaters when I was a kid and not once did Fozzie Bear make a cameo appearance walking around dressed as Jabba the Hutt.
 
2014-05-19 04:20:38 PM  

verbaltoxin: bark_atda_moon: I thought the Imperial forces greatly outnumbered the Rebels. The only reason the Rebels survived was because the Emperor stupidly ordered the Star Destroyers not to fire while he was playing with his fully armed and operational toy. The Rebels were under the impression that there was no imperial fleet near the Death Star.

I think all six movies illustrate that Palpatine was a master manipulator, but utter sh*t at everything else. He had all the power but spoiled it because he was an egotistical asshole. Emperor he could become, but emperor he could not be.

Even at the end, when Darth's ready to turn babyface he couldn't help himself. Palpatine tried to convince Luke to kill Vader and become his apprentice wih Vader standing right there.

So it makes sense that he'd pick crappy officers and raise an army that looked intimidating, but was corrupt and inept as all get-out. The empire had one thing going: size. It was massive and pervasive. But the whole galaxy knew how to skirt around Palpatine's authority, and many characters were proud to ignore it (Especially gangsters and smugglers).


It also helped that everyone was a farking moron, especially the Jedi. Oh, the dark side is clouding their judgement....it does not take telepathic like sense to figure out someone high up was manipulating the events of the war. Even up until the end everything could have changed but Mace Windu went from usually very intelligent and patient to pants on head retard. Hmm, you hear that the emperor is the sith lord, well....I better only bring two other Jedi and not tell anyone else about it. Oh and let me bring the two worst lightsaber wielding Jedi in the entire galaxy.

Then later when Yoda just gives up against Palpatine....when the fate of the galaxy is in the balance you don't just give up. How nobody could have noticed a huge fight taking place in the center of the Senate makes no god damn sense either. Or hey, you know, turn on a camera during the fight. Boom, Palpatine is immediately outed as the sith lord.
 
2014-05-19 04:24:40 PM  

unyon: I'm off Star Wars until someone can justify the alarming lack of safety railings.  It sets a very bad example for kids.


their OSHA really sucked.
 
2014-05-19 04:31:17 PM  

TV's Vinnie: And firing at the exhaust port from a  horizontal level when the damn hole could have been approached from a straight-down firing angle?


Yeah, that part started bothering me recently.  WTF is the point of flying down that stupid trench when you could fly straight at the port and release?  Also, in what military does the term "cover me" imply "stand behind me and absorb shots until you are dead"?  Why was Han the only one capable of flying above the trench and actually providing the standard definition of cover fire?
 
2014-05-19 04:32:44 PM  

ActionJoe: It also helped that everyone was a farking moron, especially the Jedi. Oh, the dark side is clouding their judgement....it does not take telepathic like sense to figure out someone high up was manipulating the events of the war


I think it was just unfathomable to the Jedi that someone could rise to Chancellor and also be a Sith Lord, someone that no one has ever had any experience with and whose very existence is pretty much a myth.

Then later when Yoda just gives up against Palpatine....when the fate of the galaxy is in the balance you don't just give up

Yoda obviously knew he couldn't win. He proved himself as not being one to rush into more combat if he knew he couldn't win. As for the senate floor, everyone was off skiing at their winter homes and banging interns like our own senate, there wasn't anyone there to see the fight.
 
2014-05-19 04:52:55 PM  

Mugato: ActionJoe: It also helped that everyone was a farking moron, especially the Jedi. Oh, the dark side is clouding their judgement....it does not take telepathic like sense to figure out someone high up was manipulating the events of the war

I think it was just unfathomable to the Jedi that someone could rise to Chancellor and also be a Sith Lord, someone that no one has ever had any experience with and whose very existence is pretty much a myth.

Then later when Yoda just gives up against Palpatine....when the fate of the galaxy is in the balance you don't just give up

Yoda obviously knew he couldn't win. He proved himself as not being one to rush into more combat if he knew he couldn't win. As for the senate floor, everyone was off skiing at their winter homes and banging interns like our own senate, there wasn't anyone there to see the fight.


My big bugaboo is "What would a Sith want with the Galaxy"? I mean, is there really any joy or pleasure in ruling over it all? Wouldn't the sheer bureaucracy of having to manage every little thing going on in the vast Cosmos become a major pain in the ass? I'd think even using force-lighting and force-choking the occasional incompetent underling would lose it's thrill after the first couple dozen.

After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.
--Spock


/Yes, I deliberately chose a Spock quote just as an extra nad-slap to the Star Wars fans
 
2014-05-19 04:54:46 PM  

frestcrallen: Nice, never seen that before.




i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com

As always the Empire Strikes Back is the coolest one.

wish I could credit the artiest
 
2014-05-19 04:55:32 PM  

unyon: I'm off Star Wars until someone can justify the alarming lack of safety railings.  It sets a very bad example for kids.


Hell, in Star Wars kids aren't even seen as kids. Just tiny and stupid adults.
 
2014-05-19 04:58:16 PM  

Cymbal: MooseMuffin: extroverted_suicide: Vader was completely f'ing with him.  He was fighting him one handed most of the time.  He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.

Mugato: Did you not watch the end of the duel? Vader had no intention of killing Luke, he never did. He wanted Luke to think that he was more powerful than he was and wanted Luke to join him.

Sorta.  Vader's other two duals are fighting an old guy to a draw before the old guy sacrifices himself, and losing to Luke in ROTJ.  In the fight in Empire, his first goal was to freeze Luke, which he fails to do, then he gets kicked off a platform and takes a minor saber blow to the shoulder before winning.  The onscreen action doesn't build a great for him as badass lightsaber grandmaster.

Anakin was a badass lightsaber dualist before he became "more machine now than man". Vader's suit, while allowing him to walk, is a pretty significant physical handicap. He essentially has to carry around an iron lung into every battle.


If anything, Vader is Grievous V2.0 AND Dooku all rolled into one.
 
2014-05-19 05:01:20 PM  

TV's Vinnie: My big bugaboo is "What would a Sith want with the Galaxy"? I


Well obviously the Sith have a serious grudge against the Jedi. The Jedi have effectively ruled the galaxy for a thousand years (the Chancellor really looks like a figurehead). So the question would be does Palatine want to destroy the Jedi as a means of taking over the galaxy or does he want to take over the galaxy so that he has the means to destroy the Jedi? Both are valid motives. We've seen a lot more puzzling motivations in our own world.
 
2014-05-19 05:11:41 PM  

Norfolking Chance: By the time of RotJ Luke had less than a year with Yoda.


What's the actual timeline supposed to be here?  Because it doesn't seem like the gang was in that worm or at cloud city all that long, and "promise to keep to an old friend" doesn't sound like Luke has been back between Empire and Jedi.
 
2014-05-19 05:28:42 PM  

Tax Boy: mjbok: Just the sheer number of composited elements in one frame is unreal.  That is also why there is a mistake in the initial shot of the Tie Fighters swarming the Falcon

learned about the masking error in the original making-of documentary, so every time I've seen the movie  I can't help but notice it. Thanks, Obama.


which for all the work ILM did on revamping for the special edition, they couldn't correct the 2 TIE's flying through the Falcon in a mistake so well known that its even shown in the "making of" specials from the 80's...?

so far as the remaining Empirial fleet after the DS2 blows... the Rebels had already taken out a Super Star Destroyer before that point, so when the DeathStar goes up (who knows how many ships went with that blast)
and given that the original plan was for that fleet to merely picket the battlefield to prevent the Rebels escape...and the Executor being the primary command element ...I imagine disarray and demoralization called a quick end to the battle.  And that solution doesn't require me to buy into all the Tim Zahn non-sense (really hate his work myself)

/do I get my no-prize now?
 
2014-05-19 05:29:21 PM  

MooseMuffin: Norfolking Chance: By the time of RotJ Luke had less than a year with Yoda.

What's the actual timeline supposed to be here?  Because it doesn't seem like the gang was in that worm or at cloud city all that long, and "promise to keep to an old friend" doesn't sound like Luke has been back between Empire and Jedi.


I think he most likely did go back for training with Yoda between ESB and ROTJ. He had to construct his new lightsaber for one thing, and Yoda would have helped him with that.
 
2014-05-19 05:33:43 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Cymbal: MooseMuffin: extroverted_suicide: Vader was completely f'ing with him.  He was fighting him one handed most of the time.  He could have sliced Luke in half at any point during that fight, but that wasn't why Vader was there.

Mugato: Did you not watch the end of the duel? Vader had no intention of killing Luke, he never did. He wanted Luke to think that he was more powerful than he was and wanted Luke to join him.

Sorta.  Vader's other two duals are fighting an old guy to a draw before the old guy sacrifices himself, and losing to Luke in ROTJ.  In the fight in Empire, his first goal was to freeze Luke, which he fails to do, then he gets kicked off a platform and takes a minor saber blow to the shoulder before winning.  The onscreen action doesn't build a great for him as badass lightsaber grandmaster.

Anakin was a badass lightsaber dualist before he became "more machine now than man". Vader's suit, while allowing him to walk, is a pretty significant physical handicap. He essentially has to carry around an iron lung into every battle.

If anything, Vader is Grievous V2.0 AND Dooku all rolled into one.


Disagree.

The suit seemed like it certainly restricted his overall movement, agility, and speed. Grievous was very nimble, and Dooku was no slouch either, even at his age.
 
2014-05-19 05:33:48 PM  

StrangeQ: TV's Vinnie: And firing at the exhaust port from a  horizontal level when the damn hole could have been approached from a straight-down firing angle?

Yeah, that part started bothering me recently.  WTF is the point of flying down that stupid trench when you could fly straight at the port and release?  Also, in what military does the term "cover me" imply "stand behind me and absorb shots until you are dead"?  Why was Han the only one capable of flying above the trench and actually providing the standard definition of cover fire?


they flew down the trench to escape the turbo laser AA battery fire as well as duck under whatever passes for radar etc...cuz before that the small group of rebels were getting their ass kicked. As soon as Vader decided to "deal with them myself"  they ceased fire on the AA batteries so they didn't accidentally shoot down Vader... Han and Chewie  then basically came "out of nowhere"  at just the right time , fast enough that the Emperials had no time to react.

/two No-Prizes in one day?
 
2014-05-19 05:45:29 PM  

Cymbal: The suit seemed like it certainly restricted his overall movement, agility, and speed. Grievous was very nimble, and Dooku was no slouch either, even at his age.


Dooku was no slouch in the animated stuff. His live action work wasn't that impressive. I know the Clone Wars is still Cannon but we have to take into account that Dooku the animated was a super ninja while Dooku in 1-3 was basically a fencer
 
2014-05-19 05:56:26 PM  

Igor Jakovsky: I liked the ewoks when i wad a child. Now not so much which i guess was kind of the point of having them in the movie. Loved Jabba, the space battles and the final showdown with vader and the emperor


Speaking of star wars pandering to kids, Ive been watching the clone wars on netflix and it isnt too bad.


Get back to me about Clone Wars after the 85th "I have a bad feeling about this".

Plus, if you watch Revenge immediately afterward, the Anakin character is just so godawfully bad, it makes you cringe.

It as if the writers of Clone Wars just said "fark continuity, we're doing our own shait here".

Plus the occasional droid-centric episodes that are CLEARLY aimed at 7 year olds, you have a bit of a hot mess.

There is some gold in there, but you gotta mine for it.

Loved the occasional "Raider's" easter eggs, however.
 
2014-05-19 06:23:34 PM  

Cymbal: I think he most likely did go back for training with Yoda between ESB and ROTJ. He had to construct his new lightsaber for one thing, and Yoda would have helped him with that.


Luke built his new lightsaber in the ruins of Obi-Wans house prior to going to Jabba's palace.  It was actually filmed but never used, because it would take away the "holy shiat, is that a lightsaber in R2D2?" moment.  Minus the phantom kick that sequence is done really, really well from the salute on.

//Thing that always bothered me about the Rancor sequence is why did Luke have to use a rock?
 
2014-05-19 06:24:11 PM  

Cymbal: He had to construct his new lightsaber for one thing, and Yoda would have helped him with that.


He actually constructs the new lightsaber in Kenobi's old Tatooine dwelling (using tools there) and plants it in R2 before heading to Jabba's palace.  It was a scene in the novelization for Jedi.  I believe it was also filmed, but ended up being cut along with the sandstorm scene.  I always took it to mean that Kenobi was giving him "ghost pointers + tips" on how to make one.  Or maybe he had the instructions written down on the back of the his recipe for Stewed Bantha Loin.
 
2014-05-19 06:24:54 PM  
mjbok you beat me to it.
 
2014-05-19 06:25:48 PM  

frestcrallen: He actually constructs the new lightsaber in Kenobi's old Tatooine dwelling (using tools there) and plants it in R2 before heading to Jabba's palace. It was a scene in the novelization for Jedi. I believe it was also filmed, but ended up being cut along with the sandstorm scene. I always took it to mean that Kenobi was giving him "ghost pointers + tips" on how to make one. Or maybe he had the instructions written down on the back of the his recipe for Stewed Bantha Loin.


I usually am the one beaten to the post while typing it.  This time I win!
 
2014-05-19 06:48:04 PM  

mjbok: Thing that always bothered me about the Rancor sequence is why did Luke have to use a rock?


If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull.  I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.


I agree with this article 100%.  I love ROTJ.  It was the first Star Wars movie I remember seeing (born in '82).  It has a drama to it that I think goes unrealized if you take the movie as itself.  In the first movie, we have no concept of the Rebellion outside of a few fighter squadrons that miraculously take down the death star.  In the second, we see that the Rebellion is a bit bigger, but no match for the Empire in a pitched battle.  Now, in ROTJ, the Rebellion chooses to go into a pitched battle where they are horribly outnumbered in every sense.  The space battle scenes play this up beautifully, as each of the first few sequences get are more desperate than the last, culminating in the death star destroying several rebel cruisers.  Then, once they move into the star destroyer fleet, things start to change for the better.

To me the ultimate culmination of this is when the a-wing crashes through the bridge of the super star destroyer.  Even though the Emperor is dead and death star run has already started, there is still a feeling that the battle itself could go either way because of how overmatched the rebel fleet is, and this kamikaze effort is clearly the point at which the battle is decided in the Rebellion's favor.  I get chills at that scene every time I watch it, and it is my favorite scene of any movie because it is always the clear point at which the good guys won.
 
2014-05-19 07:03:04 PM  
And the Empire will be defeated by Ewoks!
That's highly... unlikely

i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-05-19 07:15:23 PM  

acefox1: bark_atda_moon: My biggest gripe about RotJ is the ending.  The Death Star is destroyed and there is an immediate after-party.  Why didn't the giant fleet of Star Destroyers destroy what was left of the Rebel Fleet?


I remember a theory put forward in one of the Zahn novels that I liked was that the Emperor was able to use the Force to control the Empire at a granular level from the second Death Star. Not so much that he was controlling the movements and actions of the Imperial Officers and troops involved but more along the lines that he was using the Force to coordinate his forces and control their focus.

The brilliant part of this theory is that the second Death Star battle / Battle of Endor is all going the Empire's Way until Luke goes off-script and the Emperor's focus shifts from the exterior battle to 100% on Luke and Vader. That's the point where Han tricks the bunker commander, the Rebels blow-up the shield generator and the remaining Rebel ships are able to attack the Death Star.

I know, lots of people don't want to hear about any clap-trap from the Expanded Universe and I tired of most of it pretty quickly too. I just like this theory as it adds some depth and a darker tone to the ROTJ plot.


What's crazy about this theory is that it's actually alluded to in the prequels.  Can't remember which one right this second, but in one of them they actually have a conversation between Yoda and Mace Windu where they say that their greatest fear is that the Dark Side is pulling the strings and they can't control it, or something to that effect.  So as crazy (and most probably not intentional) as it is, they actually back this theory up in the prequels.
 
2014-05-19 07:39:37 PM  

show me: I liked it best at the time, and it's still way up there. When Vader picks up the Emperor and throws him down the shaft it gave me goosebumps. It still does.


I like how Vader's mask briefly shows a skull after he throws the Emperor down the shaft.
 
2014-05-19 07:42:19 PM  
And for the record, I love Jedi.  I was 7 when it came out; I may have seen Empire in theaters but I KNOW I saw Jedi in a theater.  Repeatedly.  Hell, I had a cassette with the audio track all the way through the time on Tatooine. To this day I will sit there and unconsciously speak every damned line to the first thirty minutes or so (or whatever the time is, I forget).

\the tape, btw, was frickin' funny as hell when played on my little sister's Teddy Ruxpin doll
 
2014-05-19 07:44:21 PM  

MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

And the A New Hope dual is distractingly awful.  Other than that, I love everything about those movies.


ANH duel between Vader and Kenobi on the surface seems dull in comparison to other saber play, but consider this: Kenobi's objective is to distract Vader and the stormtroopers whilst Luke and the others escape.  He does kinda 'monologuing' to keep Vader's attention.  I would imagine neither had much saber combat since the last encounter; also, that last fight Kenobi handed his ass to him which would justify Vader's caution.

ESB duel between Vader and Luke the objective is also a distraction, as Vader is positioning Luke for the carbonite.  Luke's technique in this duel is aggressive and undisciplined(enforcing much of Yoda's warnings from the Degobah sessions.)   Vader's strategy in this duel is playing Luke's over confidence, whilst demonstrating use of the force in combat (consistent with Sith tactics seen in later movies.) Vader only has to defend Luke's advances, and probably has not had much saber play outside of the last 2 encounters with Kenobi.

Luke's saber/force skills did indeed improve for ROTJ, but nowhere near the level that Kenobi and others are shown to have had in later movies.  Luke's training and demonstrated skill are bare essentials, without having the extensive combat training of the old republic Jedi in episodes 1-3 (granted mostly due to his impatience to complete the training before confronting Vader again.)
 
2014-05-19 08:21:41 PM  

juvandy: If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull. I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.


The only possibility I thought of was the force couldn't do a mechanical switch (see Darth Maul using debris to open a door in TPM), but this isn't true as Vader flips a switch on Bespin via the force and OB1 opens doors on Kamino via the force.
 
2014-05-19 08:47:53 PM  

mjbok: juvandy: If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull. I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.

The only possibility I thought of was the force couldn't do a mechanical switch (see Darth Maul using debris to open a door in TPM), but this isn't true as Vader flips a switch on Bespin via the force and OB1 opens doors on Kamino via the force.


That was a directorial decision. The scene would have worked a lot better if Luke wasn't as panicky and just had a regretful look as he used the Force to flip the switch that closed the door on the poor creature.
 
2014-05-19 08:55:22 PM  
As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

img1.wikia.nocookie.net


They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

basementrejects.com

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.
 
2014-05-19 08:57:15 PM  

mjbok: juvandy: If you freeze-frame you'll see its not a rock, but a skull. I know that doesn't answer your question but I always thought it was cool.

The only possibility I thought of was the force couldn't do a mechanical switch (see Darth Maul using debris to open a door in TPM), but this isn't true as Vader flips a switch on Bespin via the force and OB1 opens doors on Kamino via the force.


Technically, Vader flips a toggle switch. The door Maul opens is an electronic palm-pad, IIRC. So I guess the Dark Side isn't good at subtle electronic manipulations, or maybe Maul just didn't know that technique and it was easier to use brute force and slam something into it. Vader, on the other hand, was only dealing with a flip-toggle; Not especially hard to manipulate.
 
2014-05-19 09:10:51 PM  

g-booby: MooseMuffin: The only thing about the whole original trilogy that bothers me is that Luke walks up to Vader in Empire, pulls out his lightsaber, and kinda holds his own for a bit.  Seems strange, since that appears to be his first experience with a fight of that kind, and Vader's been kicking ass for years.  Are we assuming he's been sparing with Yoda?

And the A New Hope dual is distractingly awful.  Other than that, I love everything about those movies.

ANH duel between Vader and Kenobi on the surface seems dull in comparison to other saber play, but consider this: Kenobi's objective is to distract Vader and the stormtroopers whilst Luke and the others escape.  He does kinda 'monologuing' to keep Vader's attention.  I would imagine neither had much saber combat since the last encounter; also, that last fight Kenobi handed his ass to him which would justify Vader's caution.

ESB duel between Vader and Luke the objective is also a distraction, as Vader is positioning Luke for the carbonite.  Luke's technique in this duel is aggressive and undisciplined(enforcing much of Yoda's warnings from the Degobah sessions.)   Vader's strategy in this duel is playing Luke's over confidence, whilst demonstrating use of the force in combat (consistent with Sith tactics seen in later movies.) Vader only has to defend Luke's advances, and probably has not had much saber play outside of the last 2 encounters with Kenobi.

Luke's saber/force skills did indeed improve for ROTJ, but nowhere near the level that Kenobi and others are shown to have had in later movies.  Luke's training and demonstrated skill are bare essentials, without having the extensive combat training of the old republic Jedi in episodes 1-3 (granted mostly due to his impatience to complete the training before confronting Vader again.)


More importantly in ANH, neither Obi-Wan nor Anakin/Vader are in their prime anymore: Obi-Wan is an old man who hasn't been in any major combat in decades, and Anakin is a quadruple amputee in a walking iron lung.
 
2014-05-19 09:21:26 PM  

JerseyTim: The "I am a Jedi ... *headnod* .. like my father before me" scene is the best scene in any Star Wars film, all three of them.


I prefer "No...there is another", but yours is great, too.
 
2014-05-19 09:22:51 PM  

Nix Nightbird: Technically, Vader flips a toggle switch. The door Maul opens is an electronic palm-pad, IIRC. So I guess the Dark Side isn't good at subtle electronic manipulations, or maybe Maul just didn't know that technique and it was easier to use brute force and slam something into it. Vader, on the other hand, was only dealing with a flip-toggle; Not especially hard to manipulate.


Either way I thought that move was really cool.  He doesn't look at it, he just does it.

//Does anyone else "force-open" automatic sliding doors?
 
2014-05-19 09:23:16 PM  

Nix Nightbird: As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

[img1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x637]

They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

[basementrejects.com image 600x305]

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.


Great post.  Fundamentally if Ralph McQuarrie drew it, it is canon.  I understand the reasoning behind the idea of Ewoks as made for kids, but that doesn't mean they couldn't also be proficient warriors even with limited technology.  The habitat they are fighting also stacks the odds in their favor- they are well-camouflaged and able to sneak up so close to the Imperials that they can find the chinks in the armor before the Imps can take them out at range with blasterfire.

The Ewoks also use very smart small-unit guerrilla tactics.  They show up with an arrow salvo that is admittedly ineffective, and then basically run away/taunt the imps into following them.  The imps follow, but smartly only with stormtroopers, walkers, and speeders.  In all cases, the ewoks force the imps to pursue them into well-concealed ambushes and traps chosen on ground of their choosing, where their small size, excellent camouflage, and brute-force weapons (big rocks, logs) can be used to negate the technological advantage of the empire.  It's classic Sun Tzu.

At the same time, while their heavy infantry/armor is chasing the Ewoks, the imps forget about the rebel special forces at their rear, and their unarmoured and command forces are quickly wiped out.  Note that throughout the whole sequence you never see a dead rebel- these guys are hardcore infantry, well-trained and used to fighting outnumbered using the same style of guerrilla tactics the Ewoks employ.  Once Chewbacca gets in a walker and is able to also better balance the technological advantage of the empire, the game's over.

Granted, they got extremely lucky, but I don't think the idea is as far-fetched as people seem to think.  If the imperial helmets/walkers had IR gear they would have wiped the ewoks out pretty quickly, regardless of their tactics.  That said, there's no evidence they do have that ability- even the gunners in the walkers are aiming through open viewports rather than any kind of true digital aiming system.  The rebels, especially those trained by the imperial academies, like Han, would know all of those technological abilities going into the battle.
 
2014-05-19 09:55:47 PM  

mjbok: frestcrallen: He actually constructs the new lightsaber in Kenobi's old Tatooine dwelling (using tools there) and plants it in R2 before heading to Jabba's palace. It was a scene in the novelization for Jedi. I believe it was also filmed, but ended up being cut along with the sandstorm scene. I always took it to mean that Kenobi was giving him "ghost pointers + tips" on how to make one. Or maybe he had the instructions written down on the back of the his recipe for Stewed Bantha Loin.

I usually am the one beaten to the post while typing it.  This time I win!


Yep. It is on the blu-ray.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ayT0EZwbks
 
2014-05-19 10:24:03 PM  
ROTJ starts out every bit as good as either of the first two movies. But once they fly away from the Sarlacc pit, it's all downhill fast. Ewok stupidity, a replay of the death star destruction, and all Luke's ghosty friends at the ending? Blech.

Let's not revise history. ROTJ set the stage for the clusterfark trilogy that followed it over a decade later.
 
2014-05-19 10:25:46 PM  
I dont hate Ewoks but they were handled poorly. When you see them beating down armored troopers with twigs, it makes your eyes roll. Dont even get me started on chopping down all those trees and setting up traps for the AT-ST.

Using the bolas to choke troopers was clever. They should have done more things like that and be distractions while the REBELS took care of the Empire. Maybe they wouldnt have been so hated.

The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.
 
2014-05-19 11:11:07 PM  

Omis: The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.


Blame someone other than Lucas for that.
 
2014-05-20 12:31:56 AM  

Omis: I dont hate Ewoks but they were handled poorly. When you see them beating down armored troopers with twigs, it makes your eyes roll. Dont even get me started on chopping down all those trees and setting up traps for the AT-ST.

Using the bolas to choke troopers was clever. They should have done more things like that and be distractions while the REBELS took care of the Empire. Maybe they wouldnt have been so hated.

The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.


The trees traps were already there. They maintain a number of traps to lure attacking gorax and other predators into them. Note that the Rebels were ALSO caught in a pre-existing Ewok trap (the net).
 
2014-05-20 12:43:11 AM  

Nix Nightbird: Omis: I dont hate Ewoks but they were handled poorly. When you see them beating down armored troopers with twigs, it makes your eyes roll. Dont even get me started on chopping down all those trees and setting up traps for the AT-ST.

Using the bolas to choke troopers was clever. They should have done more things like that and be distractions while the REBELS took care of the Empire. Maybe they wouldnt have been so hated.

The other problem with RotJ is it's where the dialogue gets clunky. Especially Luke's. It's like a prelude to the banal jedi speak of the prequels.

The trees traps were already there. They maintain a number of traps to lure attacking gorax and other predators into them. Note that the Rebels were ALSO caught in a pre-existing Ewok trap (the net).


If you say so. But none of that was in the movie. Probably for good reason. It would make the movie even dumber.
 
2014-05-20 01:03:28 AM  
And just to reinforce the point. You say the Gorax can grow up to 60 meters tall. An AT-AT is 20 meters. An AT-ST is only 8.6 meters tall. Those Goraxs would be seen and heard miles away. Yet no one even mentions them. And those tree trunks traps would do nothing to it.
 
2014-05-20 01:12:28 AM  

Fomby_Belcher: THE EWOK SONG!!!


I never saw the movie, so to me it's the closing theme of Daves of Thunder.
 
2014-05-20 02:35:38 AM  
Vader initially hiding Luke using the force from the Emperor

Darth Vader: A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.
The Emperor: Yes, I know.
Darth Vader: My son is with them.
The Emperor: Are you sure?
Darth Vader: I have *felt* him, my master.
The Emperor: Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.
Darth Vader: They are clear, my master.
 
2014-05-20 02:48:01 AM  

Nix Nightbird: As I said previously, Ralph McQuarrie artwork makes it clear that Ewoks are used to fighting much more powerful foes. The reason they have villages in the tree tops is because one of the main predators on Endor are creatures called Gorax.

[img1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x637]

They can get to be 60 meters tall, and they like Ewok meat.

Ewoks have lived with these things for many centuries. They fight them off when they attack villages. This is how an Ewok spends his life: Wake up, hunt for food, reinforce village, mate, eat, fight off 190-foot monster trying to eat your mate and pups, repair damage, sleep, wake in the night to defend the village against flying predators, sleep, wake, hunt for food...

[basementrejects.com image 600x305]

So I'd think a race of beings who have learned to survive on a world where 190-foot monsters go after them regularly  might be a bit more capable as warriors, hunters, and trappers than they'd appear to be. So they're small and furry? Yeah, and they know the moon's trees, animals, and terrain better than anyone. They know how to make traps that can take down foes who are ALL much larger and stronger than they are. They perfected this as a species. This is what they  do.

The Empire underestimated them and suffered for it.


Ewok on Titan?
 
2014-05-20 06:47:03 AM  

JustHereForThePics: Igor Jakovsky: I liked the ewoks when i wad a child. Now not so much which i guess was kind of the point of having them in the movie. Loved Jabba, the space battles and the final showdown with vader and the emperor


Speaking of star wars pandering to kids, Ive been watching the clone wars on netflix and it isnt too bad.

Get back to me about Clone Wars after the 85th "I have a bad feeling about this".

Plus, if you watch Revenge immediately afterward, the Anakin character is just so godawfully bad, it makes you cringe.

It as if the writers of Clone Wars just said "fark continuity, we're doing our own shait here".

Plus the occasional droid-centric episodes that are CLEARLY aimed at 7 year olds, you have a bit of a hot mess.

There is some gold in there, but you gotta mine for it.

Loved the occasional "Raider's" easter eggs, however.


I can only enjoy Clone Wars when Anakin isn't around.  Or too much of the lame-ass battle droid banter.  Prequels or animated, he was never an interesting character, to me.
 
2014-05-20 08:59:30 AM  
Because the prequels make The Holiday Special look good?
 
2014-05-20 12:04:59 PM  

B.L.Z. Bub: Fomby_Belcher: THE EWOK SONG!!!

I never saw the movie, so to me it's the closing theme of Daves of Thunder.


Williams official title was "Ewok Celebration"...  we played it in band when I was in the 8th grade.
 
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