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(The State)   4th Circuit Court of Appeals tells district court judge that before laughing them out of court, he has to apply the law to analyze whether it's actually a mole hill or a mountain that litigious atheists are pointing at   (thestate.com) divider line 62
    More: Spiffy, United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, district court, University of Richmond, American Humanist Association, Greenville County, atheists, appeals courts, United States courts of appeals  
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3572 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 May 2014 at 3:24 PM (9 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



62 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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vpb [TotalFark]
2014-05-19 12:05:36 PM
I think you're trying too hard.
 
2014-05-19 12:44:06 PM
FTFA: After a hearing, the district court denied both motions without a written order, the appeals court said in its ruling.

Judges don't have to actually even write a paragraph explaining a decision? I'm glad that's grounds for appeal, because that shiat is bananas.
 
2014-05-19 12:44:41 PM

vpb: I think you're trying too hard.


Given the contentious nature of TFA, I think Subby did a good job of not picking sides other than "anti snap-judgment."  Maybe it is a meritless case, maybe it is a great case, but the judge should at least give the litigants the time of day.
 
2014-05-19 12:47:26 PM
FTFA: Christians might soon be "arrested for proclaiming the Gospel."

Call me when the Westboro Baptist Church protestors are hauled away in chains by the cops. Then we'll talk.
 
2014-05-19 12:48:09 PM
Somacandra:Call me when the Westboro Baptist Church protestors are hauled away in chains by the cops. Then we'll talk.

Aw, crap. Wrong thread.

/moar coffee
 
2014-05-19 12:50:27 PM
For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?
 
2014-05-19 01:08:09 PM

vpb: I think you're trying too hard.


Probably. But while I'm not a connoisseur, the ruling is about as blunt a rebuke of a district court judge by an appellate court as I can recall seeing.
 
2014-05-19 01:11:01 PM

nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?


For many theists, yes.  They need that constant reinforcement of their belief. Otherwise they will lapse into hedonistic debauchery and wanton depravity.
 
2014-05-19 01:15:10 PM

nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?


Sometimes I think that there's a widely held belief that if you aren't actively, openly praising Jesus (and other religions in other cultures are the same way) you're tacitly praising the devil.  God needs a lot of reminders that he's on our minds.
 
2014-05-19 01:15:16 PM

factoryconnection: Maybe it is a meritless case, maybe it is a great case, but the judge should at least give the litigants the time of day.


And the district judge actually used the phrase "making a mountain out of a molehill". Among other problems; there's more background in assorted links at the less-than-unbiased coverage here.
 
2014-05-19 02:23:23 PM

Dinki: Otherwise they will lapse into hedonistic debauchery and wanton depravity.


I fail to see any issues with this. They should try it.

factoryconnection: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

Sometimes I think that there's a widely held belief that if you aren't actively, openly praising Jesus (and other religions in other cultures are the same way) you're tacitly praising the devil.  God needs a lot of reminders that he's on our minds.


If that's true, then god doesn't need prayers, he needs a psychiatrist and maybe group therapy.
 
2014-05-19 03:22:19 PM
*psst* there is no god. you can sleep in on sunday. it's ok, really.
 
2014-05-19 03:28:10 PM
Can't we just be offended by the idea of an elementary school graduation? That's enough to outrage me, like this marks anything but a change of educators and administrators to annoy.
 
2014-05-19 03:29:59 PM

Somacandra: FTFA: After a hearing, the district court denied both motions without a written order, the appeals court said in its ruling.

Judges don't have to actually even write a paragraph explaining a decision? I'm glad that's grounds for appeal, because that shiat is bananas.


I'm thinking that happened to Orly Taitz at some point.
 
2014-05-19 03:30:04 PM

Dinki: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

For many theists, yes.  They need that constant reinforcement of their belief. Otherwise they will lapse into hedonistic debauchery and wanton depravity.


What if my prayers involve Slannesh?
 
2014-05-19 03:30:38 PM
*tips fedora*
 
2014-05-19 03:32:20 PM

factoryconnection: Sometimes I think that there's a widely held belief that if you aren't actively, openly praising Jesus (and other religions in other cultures are the same way) you're tacitly praising the devil.   God needs a lot of reminders that he's on our minds.


Narcissistic bastard, ain't He? Reminds me of my mother.
 
2014-05-19 03:34:15 PM
BUT OUR RELIGIOUS FREEDUMZ ARE UNDER ATTACK! WE DEMAND PRAYER, BUT NOT YOUR PRAYER!
 
2014-05-19 03:36:32 PM
Did the government found the church? Did the school? No? Then STFU and GTFO.

If it's not real, it can't BBUUUUURRRNSSS USSSS!
 
2014-05-19 03:37:43 PM

factoryconnection: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

Sometimes I think that there's a widely held belief that if you aren't actively, openly praising Jesus (and other religions in other cultures are the same way) you're tacitly praising the devil.  God needs a lot of reminders that he's on our minds.


It's more a not so subtle attempt to ostracize non believers by showing the public they aren't part of the group.  No kid wants to be the odd man out when a majority go to show off their faith, leaving you standing outside.
 
2014-05-19 03:40:35 PM

SirGunslinger: Dinki: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

For many theists, yes.  They need that constant reinforcement of their belief. Otherwise they will lapse into hedonistic debauchery and wanton depravity.

What if my prayers involve Slannesh?


Slaanesh would be really pissed that such a pretender even existed, of course.  And you would vanish in a puff of OOOOOOOO!  Which is an improvement over the usual bolt of lightning, I suppose.
 
2014-05-19 03:41:17 PM
FTFA: The suit was filed by Jill Doe, a former fifth-grade student at Mountain View Elementary, her parents, John and Jane Doe, and the humanist association.

Ah, the Does.  The most litigious family in America.  They sure get around.
 
2014-05-19 03:42:11 PM

Antimatter: factoryconnection: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

Sometimes I think that there's a widely held belief that if you aren't actively, openly praising Jesus (and other religions in other cultures are the same way) you're tacitly praising the devil.  God needs a lot of reminders that he's on our minds.

It's more a not so subtle attempt to ostracize non believers by showing the public they aren't part of the group.  No kid wants to be the odd man out when a majority go to show off their faith, leaving you standing outside.


It's about who's going to get beat up in the bathroom in the end.
 
2014-05-19 03:47:38 PM

s2s2s2: Did the government found the church? Did the school? No? Then STFU and GTFO.

If it's not real, it can't BBUUUUURRRNSSS USSSS!


s10.postimg.org

Dude this doesn't even make sense. Are you even pro or against the position taken in the article?
 
2014-05-19 03:49:05 PM
The creepiest thing about this to me is that students are getting an official graduation from elementary school.  If I had an elementary school graduation, I don't remember it.

When you graduate from high school, the diploma shows that you have met the basic requirements for entering the adult world and that all further schoolwork is optional and personal.  That's something that merits celebration.  When you get a participatory award for completing your multiplication drills, it signifies that you learned something about multiplication but you don't have a special ceremony.  What special significance is passing fifth grade?  Congratulations, you're not quite halfway there?
 
2014-05-19 03:51:16 PM
The oppression by liberals on Christians in this country is stunning. Infact one of the biggest liberals in recorded history even said to pray in the closet and not make a public spectacle of yourself.   Can you believe that?!  Where's my rifle, i need to go stand my ground against something, stupid liberal world.
 
2014-05-19 03:51:25 PM

s2s2s2: Did the government found the church? Did the school? No? Then STFU and GTFO.

If it's not real, it can't BBUUUUURRRNSSS USSSS!


Did you read the article? No? Then STFU and GTFO.
 
2014-05-19 03:51:47 PM
youthvoices.net
 
2014-05-19 03:53:02 PM

Jaymark108: What special significance is passing fifth grade?  Congratulations, you're not quite halfway there?


I would think it's a graduation from innocence, now that Middle School is next. Some serious growing up is about to take place.
 
2014-05-19 03:58:40 PM

factoryconnection: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

Sometimes I think that there's a widely held belief that if you aren't actively, openly praising Jesus (and other religions in other cultures are the same way) you're tacitly praising the devil.  God needs a lot of reminders that he's on our minds.


He is a jealous God and needs to be consulted/updated on your situation and desires at least 10 times a day otherwise He might get the idea you're cheating on Him with that pagan slut that just started working at your office YOU KNOW WHO HE'S TALKING ABOUT, HE'S SEEN YOU LOOKING AT HER!!!
 
2014-05-19 03:59:32 PM

SirGunslinger: Dinki: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

For many theists, yes.  They need that constant reinforcement of their belief. Otherwise they will lapse into hedonistic debauchery and wanton depravity.

What if my prayers involve Slannesh?


Sometimes I wonder if Hellraiser stole the Cenobite idea from Warhammer, or if Warhammer stole the Slaanesh idea from Hellraiser.
 
2014-05-19 04:07:00 PM

whidbey: Dude this doesn't even make sense. Are you even pro or against the position taken in the article?


Always about sides with you. What do you have against "levels"?

qorkfiend: Did you read the article? No? Then STFU and GTFO.


FTFA: The plaintiffs alleged that the district infringed upon their First Amendment Establishment Clause by holding Mountain View's graduation ceremony at a religious venue and incorporating prayer as a part of the official graduation program, according to court filings.

That's what I'm talking bout. Will no STFU, nor GTFO. Feel free to CTIB.
 
2014-05-19 04:08:06 PM

s2s2s2: whidbey: Dude this doesn't even make sense. Are you even pro or against the position taken in the article?


Always about sides with you. What do you have against "levels"?


Just pointing out the utter incoherence of your post. What does it even mean?
 
2014-05-19 04:13:15 PM
I'm an atheist and generally support the AHA, however, in this instance, I think they might be over-doing it.

FTFA: They asked a judge to block Mountain View Elementary from holding ceremonies at a chapel at North Greenville University, a Southern Baptist-affiliated school, and allowing student-led prayers.

If it were faculty or administration led prayers, that would be one thing, but if the students want to lead prayers, denying them the right to do so seems like it would be an infringement on their religious liberties. If the AHA were to limit their suit to the issue of the location, that would be one thing, but as long as the student-led prayers don't require participation by those who do not with to participate, I don't see the problem.
 
2014-05-19 04:17:35 PM

whidbey: Just pointing out the utter incoherence of your post. What does it even mean?


Just shuckin' and jivin' Whid.
 
2014-05-19 04:18:24 PM
imageshack.com
 
2014-05-19 04:21:44 PM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: [imageshack.com image 250x350]


nbclatino.files.wordpress.com
"God loves everyone."
 
2014-05-19 04:25:02 PM
One of my Jewish friends left a town council meeting in Tennessee... he wanted to talk about extending hours for a playground near his house during the summer, since there's more sunlight hours... he said there was a 10+ minute prayer (he left and it still wasn't over), repeatedly invoking Jesus as the one true savior. I asked why he didn't just ignore it.. his response was that he knows where he's not welcome, and it's probably time for him to move, so he shouldn't care about the playground hours any more. Apparently as he was leaving, he got lots of dirty looks and one person said aloud "he was going to hell anyways."
 
2014-05-19 04:27:17 PM

geek_mars: I'm an atheist and generally support the AHA, however, in this instance, I think they might be over-doing it.

FTFA: They asked a judge to block Mountain View Elementary from holding ceremonies at a chapel at North Greenville University, a Southern Baptist-affiliated school, and allowing student-led prayers.

If it were faculty or administration led prayers, that would be one thing, but if the students want to lead prayers, denying them the right to do so seems like it would be an infringement on their religious liberties. If the AHA were to limit their suit to the issue of the location, that would be one thing, but as long as the student-led prayers don't require participation by those who do not with to participate, I don't see the problem.


The teacher asked which student was gonna lead our Christian prayer today... but it was totally student led. How about SC starts teaching a little more science in school and focuses on things kids actually need to know instead of ghost story time?
 
2014-05-19 04:42:53 PM

whidbey: Jaymark108: What special significance is passing fifth grade?  Congratulations, you're not quite halfway there?

I would think it's a graduation from innocence, now that Middle School is next. Some serious growing up is about to take place.


That's fair.  I suppose in the article's jurisdiction, with them fighting so hard to keep prayers in the ceremony, that 6th grade is when Abstinence Education begins.

/my serious growing up didn't even start until 12th grade, but I was a major, shy nerd.
 
2014-05-19 04:48:16 PM

wildcardjack: Can't we just be offended by the idea of an elementary school graduation? That's enough to outrage me, like this marks anything but a change of educators and administrators to annoy.


It's South Carolina. Graduating elementary school is an accomplishment for many of the yokels there.

\North Carolina is Best Carolina.
 
2014-05-19 04:48:43 PM

nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?


That's not the point. And what about the Jews, Muslims, etc... out there? Is it too hard for them to NOT pray to Jesus?

What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" do you not understand?
 
2014-05-19 04:49:40 PM

firefly212: One of my Jewish friends left a town council meeting in Tennessee... he wanted to talk about extending hours for a playground near his house during the summer, since there's more sunlight hours... he said there was a 10+ minute prayer (he left and it still wasn't over), repeatedly invoking Jesus as the one true savior. I asked why he didn't just ignore it.. his response was that he knows where he's not welcome, and it's probably time for him to move, so he shouldn't care about the playground hours any more. Apparently as he was leaving, he got lots of dirty looks and one person said aloud "he was going to hell anyways."


But Anthony Kennedy just said recently that that kind of thing NEVER happens!
 
2014-05-19 04:57:29 PM

SirGunslinger: Dinki: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

For many theists, yes.  They need that constant reinforcement of their belief. Otherwise they will lapse into hedonistic debauchery and wanton depravity.

What if my prayers involve Slannesh?


Whippersnappers

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
 
2014-05-19 04:59:16 PM

s2s2s2: qorkfiend: Did you read the article? No? Then STFU and GTFO.


FTFA: The plaintiffs alleged that the district infringed upon their First Amendment Establishment Clause by holding Mountain View's graduation ceremony at a religious venue and incorporating prayer as a part of the official graduation program, according to court filings.

That's what I'm talking bout. Will no STFU, nor GTFO. Feel free to CTIB.


Actually, what you were talking about was:

s2s2s2: Did the government found the church? Did the school? No?

which has nothing to do with the part of the article you just referenced.
 
2014-05-19 05:09:41 PM

qorkfiend: Actually, what you were talking about was:


FTFA: The plaintiffs alleged that the district infringed upon their First Amendment Establishment Clause* by holding Mountain View's graduation ceremony at a religious venue** and incorporating prayer as a part of the official graduation program, according to court filings.

*Did the government found the church?

**Did the school?

qorkfiend: which has nothing to do with the part of the article you just referenced.


Yeah, not even a little. :I
 
2014-05-19 05:13:40 PM

geek_mars: I'm an atheist and generally support the AHA, however, in this instance, I think they might be over-doing it.

FTFA: They asked a judge to block Mountain View Elementary from holding ceremonies at a chapel at North Greenville University, a Southern Baptist-affiliated school, and allowing student-led prayers.

If it were faculty or administration led prayers, that would be one thing, but if the students want to lead prayers, denying them the right to do so seems like it would be an infringement on their religious liberties. If the AHA were to limit their suit to the issue of the location, that would be one thing, but as long as the student-led prayers don't require participation by those who do not with to participate, I don't see the problem.


I'd agree if the school system didn't take the position that the students represent the schools at all times. The courts seem to agree. From the "Bong hits 4 Jesus" decision the judge said "It was reasonable for (the principal) to conclude that the banner promoted illegal drug use-- and that failing to act would send a powerful message to the students in her charge, "
(Emphasis mine)
So basically if they fail to stop the prayer at a school function, then they are in fact sending the message that they approve of the content by their own logic.

Now if the students want to organize something on their own time. That is completely different, but as long as their is official organization there should be no prayer of any kind.

Besides, they're supposed to do it in private... Matthew 6:6 says "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
 
2014-05-19 06:22:44 PM
Christians are SUCH dicks.  Whining and biatching because they don't get to pretend everyone else doesn't exist.  You will never find fewer Christ-like beings than in modern Christianity.

If we replaced the word "god" as it appears in modern American life with "Allah" or "Buddha" they would get it.  But Christians telling nonchristians that they are not being discriminated against is a cosmic joke.  Who better than the oppressor to tell the oppressed that the oppression is in their godless heathen heads?  In fact, accusing your oppressors of oppression is oppression!  Poor, poor tyrants.

Where's a lion when you need one?
 
2014-05-19 06:25:14 PM

wildcardjack: Can't we just be offended by the idea of an elementary school graduation? That's enough to outrage me, like this marks anything but a change of educators and administrators to annoy.


Came here to say this. The most ridiculous part of the entire thing is that they're holding a graduation ceremony for the fifth farking grade.
 
2014-05-19 06:31:59 PM

TerminalEchoes: wildcardjack: Can't we just be offended by the idea of an elementary school graduation? That's enough to outrage me, like this marks anything but a change of educators and administrators to annoy.

Came here to say this. The most ridiculous part of the entire thing is that they're holding a graduation ceremony for the fifth farking grade.


But not that they're making them pray to God-duh. You have odd priorities.
 
2014-05-19 06:33:26 PM

Jaymark108: The creepiest thing about this to me is that students are getting an official graduation from elementary school.  If I had an elementary school graduation, I don't remember it.

When you graduate from high school, the diploma shows that you have met the basic requirements for entering the adult world and that all further schoolwork is optional and personal.  That's something that merits celebration.  When you get a participatory award for completing your multiplication drills, it signifies that you learned something about multiplication but you don't have a special ceremony.  What special significance is passing fifth grade?  Congratulations, you're not quite halfway there?


Yup. Completely stupid. Lots of schools also have kindergarden graduation ceremonies. Talk about setting the bar low.
 
2014-05-19 06:36:43 PM

wax_on: Jaymark108: The creepiest thing about this to me is that students are getting an official graduation from elementary school.  If I had an elementary school graduation, I don't remember it.

When you graduate from high school, the diploma shows that you have met the basic requirements for entering the adult world and that all further schoolwork is optional and personal.  That's something that merits celebration.  When you get a participatory award for completing your multiplication drills, it signifies that you learned something about multiplication but you don't have a special ceremony.  What special significance is passing fifth grade?  Congratulations, you're not quite halfway there?

Yup. Completely stupid. Lots of schools also have kindergarden graduation ceremonies. Talk about setting the bar low.


Yeah because congratulating students on a job well done is "setting the bar low."

Let me guess, you use "your precious snowflake" a lot in sentences.
 
2014-05-19 07:17:47 PM

whidbey: wax_on: Jaymark108: The creepiest thing about this to me is that students are getting an official graduation from elementary school.  If I had an elementary school graduation, I don't remember it.

When you graduate from high school, the diploma shows that you have met the basic requirements for entering the adult world and that all further schoolwork is optional and personal.  That's something that merits celebration.  When you get a participatory award for completing your multiplication drills, it signifies that you learned something about multiplication but you don't have a special ceremony.  What special significance is passing fifth grade?  Congratulations, you're not quite halfway there?

Yup. Completely stupid. Lots of schools also have kindergarden graduation ceremonies. Talk about setting the bar low.

Yeah because congratulating students on a job well done is "setting the bar low."

Let me guess, you use "your precious snowflake" a lot in sentences.


A kindergarten graduation ceremony is the same as a 'participation award'. It's BS. How about we congratulate our kids on real accomplishments instead of made up ones.
 
2014-05-19 07:41:15 PM

wax_on: A kindergarten graduation ceremony is the same as a 'participation award'. It's BS. How about we congratulate our kids on real accomplishments instead of made up ones.


Because a bunch of 5 year old kids achieving a huge breakthrough socialization like kindergarten = "BS."

How about we congratulate our kids on real accomplishments instead of made up ones.

Dude, you're more than welcome to start a School of Engineering for pre-teens. Otherwise, you come off as incredibly insensitive and out of touch with real people's needs.
 
2014-05-19 07:41:57 PM
Imagine the recall petitions and hand wringing if the school board had decided to hold the ceremony at a mosque and the prayer reading was from the Koran.
 
2014-05-19 08:24:41 PM

sdd2000: Imagine the recall petitions and hand wringing if the school board had decided to hold the ceremony at a mosque and the prayer reading was from the Koran.


They are imagining that. Why do you think they are ratcheting up the prayer to HeyZeus?
 
2014-05-19 08:37:25 PM

wax_on: Jaymark108: The creepiest thing about this to me is that students are getting an official graduation from elementary school.  If I had an elementary school graduation, I don't remember it.

When you graduate from high school, the diploma shows that you have met the basic requirements for entering the adult world and that all further schoolwork is optional and personal.  That's something that merits celebration.  When you get a participatory award for completing your multiplication drills, it signifies that you learned something about multiplication but you don't have a special ceremony.  What special significance is passing fifth grade?  Congratulations, you're not quite halfway there?

Yup. Completely stupid. Lots of schools also have kindergarden graduation ceremonies. Talk about setting the bar low.


Think of it as a "School's out for summer" celebration, and it makes more sense.
 
2014-05-19 09:25:00 PM

rummonkey: SirGunslinger: Dinki: nmrsnr: For Fark's sake, is it really that hard NOT to pray at a school function?

For many theists, yes.  They need that constant reinforcement of their belief. Otherwise they will lapse into hedonistic debauchery and wanton depravity.

What if my prayers involve Slannesh?

Whippersnappers

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!


SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
 
2014-05-20 06:52:02 AM

geek_mars: I'm an atheist and generally support the AHA, however, in this instance, I think they might be over-doing it.

FTFA: They asked a judge to block Mountain View Elementary from holding ceremonies at a chapel at North Greenville University, a Southern Baptist-affiliated school, and allowing student-led prayers.

If it were faculty or administration led prayers, that would be one thing, but if the students want to lead prayers, denying them the right to do so seems like it would be an infringement on their religious liberties. If the AHA were to limit their suit to the issue of the location, that would be one thing, but as long as the student-led prayers don't require participation by those who do not with to participate, I don't see the problem.


Okay the 'allowing student led prayers' thing is an absolute classic trick to bypass the spirit of the law. 'Allowing' implies some students just decided, never a word with staff and in no way officially, to pray a bit in a private group. This is simply nonsense. Students with the pre-arrangement, approval and collaboration of staff and in a capacity official in all but name lead prayers on behalf of the school. It is simply dissembling and any court which pretended to believe it would be derelict.
 
2014-05-20 09:35:16 AM

gaspode: the spirit of the law


Phrase taken from scripture. Your argument is ruled a violation of the establishment clause. invalid.
 
2014-05-21 03:16:06 AM

gaspode: geek_mars: I'm an atheist and generally support the AHA, however, in this instance, I think they might be over-doing it.

FTFA: They asked a judge to block Mountain View Elementary from holding ceremonies at a chapel at North Greenville University, a Southern Baptist-affiliated school, and allowing student-led prayers.

If it were faculty or administration led prayers, that would be one thing, but if the students want to lead prayers, denying them the right to do so seems like it would be an infringement on their religious liberties. If the AHA were to limit their suit to the issue of the location, that would be one thing, but as long as the student-led prayers don't require participation by those who do not with to participate, I don't see the problem.

Okay the 'allowing student led prayers' thing is an absolute classic trick to bypass the spirit of the law. 'Allowing' implies some students just decided, never a word with staff and in no way officially, to pray a bit in a private group. This is simply nonsense. Students with the pre-arrangement, approval and collaboration of staff and in a capacity official in all but name lead prayers on behalf of the school. It is simply dissembling and any court which pretended to believe it would be derelict.


I don't disagree, but I can't imagine how to go about solving that problem. It's not practical to constantly police the faculty to ensure they're not pre-arranging and collaborating, and if you ban prayer then if there's a student or group of students that actually want to do their own prayer then they are being wrongly denied that right. The whole thing is a mess and because the issue is so polarizing I can't see how any group of reasonable people will be able to figure this out in a way that's satisfactory to either side.
 
2014-05-21 03:32:31 AM
You don't allow prayers in class or in assemblies of the whole school. You do allow it in private clubs and in personal groups.
 
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