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(CNN)   Transgendered teen held in prison for months without charges for the crime of being different. Oh, and for assaulting 11 different people. But activists SWEAR it's about the transgender stuff   (cnn.com) divider line 225
    More: Obvious, state Department of Children, solitary confinement, Jane Doe, Katz, concrete block, recreation area  
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9254 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 May 2014 at 7:26 PM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-18 03:14:56 PM
Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.
 
2014-05-18 03:18:42 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.


Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.
 
2014-05-18 03:34:38 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.


Holding her on solitary is likely for her own protection, as well as for liability purposes.  The prison doesn't want to be on the end of a lawsuit should she get seriously injured or killed by inmates in general population.

That being said, if she's assaulted people as the article suggests, press the charges if you want to keep her locked up.  If she's mentally unstable she should be in a mental health facility.  If she's mentally sound but dangerous she should be charged with her crimes.  Just holding her in prison without charges doesn't seem like a legitimate solution.
 
2014-05-18 03:46:18 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.

Holding her on solitary is likely for her own protection, as well as for liability purposes.  The prison doesn't want to be on the end of a lawsuit should she get seriously injured or killed by inmates in general population.

That being said, if she's assaulted people as the article suggests, press the charges if you want to keep her locked up.  If she's mentally unstable she should be in a mental health facility.  If she's mentally sound but dangerous she should be charged with her crimes.  Just holding her in prison without charges doesn't seem like a legitimate solution.


No argument here.  Charge her, if she's that dangerous and has done the things they say.
 
2014-05-18 04:11:29 PM
A guy in a women's prison? He's getting off easy.
 
2014-05-18 04:17:07 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: A guy in a women's prison? He's getting off easy.


media.salon.com
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-05-18 05:17:35 PM
Too dangerous for a state hospital?

If I understand correctly, she's on Connecticut's equivalent of a 5150.  I understand that.  I don't understand how solitary in an adult prison is in any way ideal.

Let's solve this on the internet.
 
2014-05-18 05:23:32 PM
Either charge her or treat her. Don't let her transgender be an issue to preclude or bypass either.

/giving the DeNiro "eye on you" to both sides
 
2014-05-18 05:35:27 PM

Bathia_Mapes: I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.


Welcome to the American legal system. Guilty until proven rich enough to afford a lawyer to get the case dismissed.
 
2014-05-18 05:41:34 PM
If she's giving people concussions in attacks, why isn't she being charged?  I would be a bit miffed if someone wasn't charged for attacking me.
 
jbc [TotalFark]
2014-05-18 05:45:39 PM
rockysmith.files.wordpress.com
Any man forgets his gender spends a night in the box.
 
2014-05-18 05:46:52 PM

Relatively Obscure: If she's giving people concussions in attacks, why isn't she being charged?  I would be a bit miffed if someone wasn't charged for attacking me.


You must have a very concussable face.
 
2014-05-18 06:01:03 PM
It feels like we don't have the whole story.  something else must be going on here.
 
2014-05-18 06:07:55 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: She did assault 11 people while in juvie


Yeah and I can bet why and I can bet I don't blame her. At least not totally. And that's probably why charges aren't really the way anyone is going on this.

This is a messy story and her in solitary in adult is a crap solution.
 
2014-05-18 06:14:47 PM

Barfmaker: Benevolent Misanthrope: She did assault 11 people while in juvie

Yeah and I can bet why and I can bet I don't blame her. At least not totally. And that's probably why charges aren't really the way anyone is going on this.

This is a messy story and her in solitary in adult is a crap solution.


Maybe at this point it isn't about her and it's about the people she keeps assaulting.
 
2014-05-18 06:22:14 PM

One Bad Apple: Barfmaker: Benevolent Misanthrope: She did assault 11 people while in juvie

Yeah and I can bet why and I can bet I don't blame her. At least not totally. And that's probably why charges aren't really the way anyone is going on this.

This is a messy story and her in solitary in adult is a crap solution.

Maybe at this point it isn't about her and it's about the people she keeps assaulting.


Why can't it be about both?
 
2014-05-18 06:27:18 PM
If she has mental problems that cause her to be dangerous, how the Fark can being placed into a women's prison going to help?

Whatever happened to state mental hospitals dealing with violently insane patients? Prisons are for punishment. Crazy people who aren't responding to treatment go to secure mental hospitals.

images.rottentomatoes.com

/Also don't follow this story as written as insufficient details to make an informed call.
//Therefore, whether the state is handling the problem poorly due to management and/or insufficient resources cannot be determined.
 
2014-05-18 06:40:08 PM

netizencain: It feels like we don't have the whole story.  something else must be going on here.


Clearly.

Also, fta at least 11 assaults against her peers and staff during her more than five years in DCF custody.

Battery is when you connect. Assault is a swing and a miss. She's in adult jail for -not- hitting anyone.
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-05-18 06:40:10 PM

AirForceVet: Whatever happened to state mental hospitals dealing with violently insane patients?


Texas has two, one in Rusk, and one in Terrell.  In Rusk, the criminally insane are housed, other patients are there, too, but I don't know the details.  At Terrell State, the state handles what falls outside the private mental health system.  I believe they also hold the criminal, but Terrell's purpose is to serve, and not to merely house.

There were others,  though I don't know of them specifically.

I assume, and I can be wrong, that each state would have one state hospital, at the least.   How this Jane Doe is not in one at this time is surprising, almost shocking, to me.  She admits that she does not deal with her anger, and anger stemming from her troubles very well.  On circumstance alone, I can understand - though it also seems that she may have a psychiatric diagnosis compounding the matter.

But seriously, seriously, how is a prison a good idea?  It would seem to me that even if she presents risks, a state hospital or similar facility is where she belongs until her legal matters are worked out.
 
2014-05-18 07:31:11 PM
Is.. is it hot?
 
2014-05-18 07:36:25 PM
So, we have a budding Lisabeth Salander.

TFA beat around the bush on what got her detained in the first place, but fighting everybody and everything WILL get you held.

Get this [whatever] a court hearing and get it over with.
 
2014-05-18 07:36:47 PM

netizencain: It feels like we don't have the whole story. something else must be going on here.


Yeah, maybe she's a minority, which would automatically make the system homophobic AND racist.
 
2014-05-18 07:37:11 PM

Relatively Obscure: If she's giving people concussions in attacks, why isn't she being charged?  I would be a bit miffed if someone wasn't charged for attacking me.


Probably because she's undergoing mental health evaluation.  If they charged her without doing it, and given her probable mental state problems, that's an easy appeal.
 
2014-05-18 07:39:25 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.


And doing away with all those long-term mental healthcare facilities years ago just keeps on biting us in the butt...
 
2014-05-18 07:40:25 PM

lindalouwho: Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.

And doing away with all those long-term mental healthcare facilities years ago just keeps on biting us in the butt...


Thanks libs
 
2014-05-18 07:40:57 PM

433: AirForceVet: Whatever happened to state mental hospitals dealing with violently insane patients?

Texas has two, one in Rusk, and one in Terrell.  In Rusk, the criminally insane are housed, other patients are there, too, but I don't know the details.  At Terrell State, the state handles what falls outside the private mental health system.  I believe they also hold the criminal, but Terrell's purpose is to serve, and not to merely house.

There were others,  though I don't know of them specifically.

I assume, and I can be wrong, that each state would have one state hospital, at the least.   How this Jane Doe is not in one at this time is surprising, almost shocking, to me.  She admits that she does not deal with her anger, and anger stemming from her troubles very well.  On circumstance alone, I can understand - though it also seems that she may have a psychiatric diagnosis compounding the matter.

But seriously, seriously, how is a prison a good idea?  It would seem to me that even if she presents risks, a state hospital or similar facility is where she belongs until her legal matters are worked out.


not every state uses battery....some have degrees of assault.
 
2014-05-18 07:42:28 PM
Nothing about this should be an issue other than "teen held in prison for months without charges". Somebody farked up.
 
2014-05-18 07:43:43 PM
The solitary is likely a favor. By all rights, he should be in a male juvenile facility .
 
2014-05-18 07:44:04 PM
...she has been held for more than a month without criminal charges...
c2.staticflickr.com

I'm on their side, even if their reasoning doesn't hold.
 
2014-05-18 07:45:55 PM
If I was held for five farking years with no charges I would be swinging at anyone who walked by me.
 
2014-05-18 07:45:55 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: lindalouwho: Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.

And doing away with all those long-term mental healthcare facilities years ago just keeps on biting us in the butt...

Thanks libs


Um, it was Ronald Reagan who did that.
 
2014-05-18 07:47:05 PM

Notabunny: netizencain: It feels like we don't have the whole story.  something else must be going on here.

Clearly.

Also, fta at least 11 assaults against her peers and staff during her more than five years in DCF custody.

Battery is when you connect. Assault is a swing and a miss. She's in adult jail for -not- hitting anyone.


You are completely wrong. To be charged with assault in Connecticut, you have to harm someone physically.

http://www.ctdefenselawyer.com/assaul t-laws/
 
2014-05-18 07:47:42 PM
 
2014-05-18 07:48:08 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.


Well, you can't press certain charges against a child the same way you would an adult.  You can't use simple confinement because this child is very violent.

You certainly can't put a transgendered person into a secure mental health facility, that would really stir the ire of the brigade.

You can't put them in with adult convicts.

It's an odd situation, so the obscure law comes out.

But then again, a lot of the time with violence, it's out of the LEO's power to do anything if the victims don't press charges(you see this a lot in domestic disputes), excepting when an individual is a danger to themselves and very obviously others.

Charges of some sort should have already been made though, or making the child a ward of the state, and maybe that's what the obscure law is about.

Also, the words "solitary confinement" were chosen by the child's lawyer.  It could be she's in an unpopulated area of the prison with her own cell(to include a bed / toilet / sink / etc like other normal prison cells), not so much the hot box consisting of a floor and 4 walls, no light, etc.
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-05-18 07:49:59 PM

loudboy: Nothing about this should be an issue other than "teen held in prison for months without charges". Somebody farked up.


Yes, they did.  But saying she's held in prison without charges is somewhat disingenuous.  She is being held on a psychiatric hold.  She has proven to psychiatric staff to be too hard to handle, as she has apparently attacked staff (and patients?) on quite a few occasions.

Instead of finding an appropriate psychiatric facility, she was placed in a prison, and in her own best interest, paradoxically, was also placed in solitary.

Proceedings concerning her case are moving slowly.  Because of her psychiatric hold, she must be in safe custody of the state somewhere, and somehow.  This is what they came up with.  She has demonstrated through her behavior that she is a danger to herself or others - she has to be somewhere, until proven otherwise.  This isn't an endless hold, she's not one of Nurse Ratched's charges.

I think it is unacceptable.  I do not know the state of mental health facilities in CT - but that being said, it seems that there must be another place for her.
 
2014-05-18 07:50:36 PM

loudboy: Nothing about this should be an issue other than "teen held in prison for months without charges". Somebody farked up.


Yeah, her being transgender shouldn't really be an issue.  Her mental health problems and assaults should be.  Prison should be reserved for those convicted of crimes.

Sadly, she probably wouldn't have gotten any press attention were it not for her being transgender.
 
2014-05-18 07:51:12 PM
If you're in prison and you commit additional crimes there then

1. You get more time.
2. They send you to the Hole.

Pretending otherwise because you're some kind of precious snowflake/flower doesn't really work.  Anybody who wants to see what happen when it is let out of solitary into general population can watch Oz.  I assume a 16 year old snot who  assaults people in prison is going to get shivved pretty quick.
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-05-18 07:52:35 PM

omeganuepsilon: Also, the words "solitary confinement" were chosen by the child's lawyer. It could be she's in an unpopulated area of the prison with her own cell(to include a bed / toilet / sink / etc like other normal prison cells), not so much the hot box consisting of a floor and 4 walls, no light, etc.


Good point.  Perhaps she is not in the hole, per se, but rather, in a secure area, by herself.
 
2014-05-18 07:53:10 PM

meanmutton: Notabunny: netizencain: It feels like we don't have the whole story.  something else must be going on here.

Clearly.

Also, fta at least 11 assaults against her peers and staff during her more than five years in DCF custody.

Battery is when you connect. Assault is a swing and a miss. She's in adult jail for -not- hitting anyone.

You are completely wrong. To be charged with assault in Connecticut, you have to harm someone physically.

http://www.ctdefenselawyer.com/assaul t-laws/


Huh. I didn't know that. In California, "An assault is an unlawful attempt, coupled with a present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another." No contact required.
 
2014-05-18 07:53:51 PM
Mental illness is no laughing matter.
 
2014-05-18 07:54:15 PM

One Bad Apple: Barfmaker: Benevolent Misanthrope: She did assault 11 people while in juvie

Yeah and I can bet why and I can bet I don't blame her. At least not totally. And that's probably why charges aren't really the way anyone is going on this.

This is a messy story and her in solitary in adult is a crap solution.

Maybe at this point it isn't about her and it's about the people she keeps assaulting.


Self Defense quickly becomes Assault when you are a minority, a nerd, a woman, or anything not White Anglo Saxon Protestant when in prison.

I'll give 5/2 odds that this poor kid was getting jail beat and went into fight mode injuring more of the assailants than normal and the detention officers are trying to cover their asses.
 
2014-05-18 07:54:39 PM
She needs to be in a psychiatric facility, not a prison, period. If the state doesn't have a suitable facility, which given the size of CT I'd find hard to believe, then ask a neighboring state. A prison is not a therapeutic setting, which is where she needs to be.
 
2014-05-18 07:54:54 PM

lindalouwho: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: lindalouwho: Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.

And doing away with all those long-term mental healthcare facilities years ago just keeps on biting us in the butt...

Thanks libs

Um, it was Ronald Reagan who did that.


And as I pointed out the other day, Reagan hasn't been president for a long time.  Maybe it's time to stop blaming him.

Actually, I'm curious as to what Reagan actually did.  I was too lazy to get to the bottom of it, but one site claimed he cut funding, but Congress holds the purse strings so how did they let him do it?

And why haven't individual states continued funding their own mental health care facilities?  Why didn't Clinton do anything?  Why hasn't Obama done anything?  Why haven't Democrats in Congress done anything?
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-05-18 07:55:52 PM

WhyteRaven74: She needs to be in a psychiatric facility, not a prison, period

 
2014-05-18 07:57:42 PM

Por que tan serioso: Mental illness is no laughing matter.


What about a sick clown?
 
2014-05-18 07:59:41 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: TuteTibiImperes: Benevolent Misanthrope: Bathia_Mapes: Transgendered or not, I have issues with a 16-year being held in solitary confinement in an adult prison, especially when they haven't been convicted of any crimes.

And if this teen has mental issues beforehand, being put in solitary will make matters even worse.

Agreed.  She hasn't formally been charged, much less tried, certainly not convicted.  She did assault 11 people while in juvie, so Child and Family asked that she be put in a real jail for the protection of the other kids.  I can get behind that.  But solitary?  Please.

If she were in GenPop, perhaps she would learn not to beat other people up.

Holding her on solitary is likely for her own protection, as well as for liability purposes.  The prison doesn't want to be on the end of a lawsuit should she get seriously injured or killed by inmates in general population.

That being said, if she's assaulted people as the article suggests, press the charges if you want to keep her locked up.  If she's mentally unstable she should be in a mental health facility.  If she's mentally sound but dangerous she should be charged with her crimes.  Just holding her in prison without charges doesn't seem like a legitimate solution.

No argument here.  Charge her, if she's that dangerous and has done the things they say.


A series of reasonable discussions on MY FARK?!?! Well done, good sirs.

/i have nothing to add except to say it is because of liability.
//she brought this on herself - by assaulting people
///let some prison justice take place, she's a bully
 
2014-05-18 07:59:59 PM
It must be true it's trending on twitter
 
2014-05-18 08:01:46 PM

433: omeganuepsilon: Also, the words "solitary confinement" were chosen by the child's lawyer. It could be she's in an unpopulated area of the prison with her own cell(to include a bed / toilet / sink / etc like other normal prison cells), not so much the hot box consisting of a floor and 4 walls, no light, etc.

Good point.  Perhaps she is not in the hole, per se, but rather, in a secure area, by herself.


Your post above was well put as well.  One thing followed another and it's fairly reasonable.  Maybe not optimal, but it's what they came up with that was secure enough.

IMO, the article was lacking on a lot of fact, as is the going trend even with CNN anymore.  Until there are more tenable alternatives applicable in that law locality, there's not much room for complaint.
 
2014-05-18 08:02:10 PM
My two cents on this.

First off this is Connecticut, a state with the highest percentage of assholes per capita.  They make Texas look like Maine.

Second, 11 assaults over five years ain't bad for someone in the system.  That is 2 a year, with one year being three.  I am sure I assaulted more than two people a year between the ages of 11 and 16.
 
2014-05-18 08:03:39 PM

Notabunny: netizencain: It feels like we don't have the whole story.  something else must be going on here.

Clearly.

Also, fta at least 11 assaults against her peers and staff during her more than five years in DCF custody.

Battery is when you connect. Assault is a swing and a miss. She's in adult jail for -not- hitting anyone.


Yeah, wind from the missed swing is what gave the staff member that concussion, and who knows how those bite marks got there. The distiction between assault and battery is a legal one, not a common usage one. And that's only true in certain jurisdictions. Connecticut law provides that assault is both intent and causing an injury, the word "battery" does not appear in the statute.

She's in jail because they are trying to figure out where to put her; they can't keep her in the same situation when she's continually hurting people, they can't kick her out on the street, so as a temporary solution they've put her into a much more controlled environment with a staff that's trained to deal with violent individuals. It isn't ideal, and everyone involved with the decision has admitted as much.
 
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